This CIA Scientist Led Alien Contact Ceremonies for Elites

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We have tape recordings of him meditating in the king's chamber. What? And they brought through this information. Apparently, they're channeling this Egyptian god. And there are specifically nine Egyptian gods. So he gets this call from Metallica. And he's like, "Hey, I'm going to go to the king's chamber." But the tree also has a similar network radiating into the sky. Perhaps man does as well. And he too gains nourishment through a touchless process. And if dynamics can be transferred, And if dynamics can be transferred, why can't thoughts? So he was a medical student. And there's a guy also at Northwestern at the time named Warren S. McCullough. Do you know who that is? No, who's that? You could do an episode on him. He's like, you know, a Puharich on steroids, sort of. Back then, at least. But he was this very far-out researcher into basically ESP stuff back then. into basically ESP stuff back then. He was very interested in like, you know, altering drugs, psychedelic drugs, mind-altering stuff. For the audience, ESP is extrasensory perception? Yes, yeah, yeah, extrasensory perception. So he was at Northwestern. And McCullough, I think I'm pronouncing that right, But he sort of took Puharich under his wing But he sort of took Puharich under his wing and from what I understand was the first person who introduced him to was the first person who introduced him to you know, whatever, weird science, if you want to call it that. Because he was one of these guys, McCullough, who would, you know, on his off-time do all these like strange experiments with radio frequencies and that kind of stuff. And I think like in the academic setting he had to, you know, put on a suit and tie and like not talk about that, basically. But he also was very involved in intelligence stuff. Like he was always getting sort of like we have letters from like CIA and stuff back then who were kind of going to him with questions and so forth. McCullough, interesting. Yeah, and he actually there was an archive in I think it wasn't Northwestern. It was some bizarre archive I found years ago making the film. And, you know, I know you had Annie Jacobson on, like she's in the film. And she was trying to find records on McCullough because you know, he's really interesting. He was part of the Buhart story. And somehow we found this like big stash of archives of his that again were these letters from CIA and the Navy and everything. Sort of, I guess, wanting to recruit him. But in those letters, there were letters from McCullough back to these agencies saying, you know, you should check this guy Buharich out. You know, he's, I work with him. He's young. He's very smart. And he was older, like much older than Buharich at that time. I think he was probably like, you know, in his 70s or 80s or something. So, you know, he passed on. But basically that, I think, triggered Buharich to get very interested in the subject. So he became almost like obsessed with it, and he sort of had this moment back then where he's like, I'm either going to choose the traditional academic path or I'm going to choose the, you know, path of ESP telepathy. And he talks very openly about, like, making that choice. I was unexpectedly put in contact with Henry A. Wallace, vice president under Franklin Delano Roosevelt. He was impressed by my quest for the existence of telepathy and granted me a large sum of money. Additional benefactors emerged, including the heirs to two of the wealthiest families in the world, the Astors and the DuPonts. I was able to get a barn. I started working in the dead of winter in 48 in Maine. We lived in a big 50-room house on the seashore, which was a lab and residence and so on. It was called. And so he opens the Roundtable Foundation. So there's a lot going on with how that even opened because it's a huge lab. It's like a massive barn. It's on the coast of Maine, Rockland, Maine, it's called. So, you know, it's this huge place. He's got like a staff, you know, and the thing with Puharich, I learned, like, he tells a different story. A different story of how the Roundtable started and how we got the money and everything to what we kind of figured out was really going on. What'd you figure out? Well, it was all, you know, government funded at that time. It was the CIA? Everyone. Army, Navy, CIA, something called the, something Armor Foundation that was somehow tied into the Army. But basically any of those places. I mean, we have letters of all of them, you get Army, you name it. I mean, they were just like flocking to this place, basically giving him money to do research. And this was, yeah, 49, 50, very early. Fascinating. And you think their preliminary interest was mind control, telepathy, anything beyond the purview of kind of normal materialist reductionist physics that might be able to be weaponized? Or confer a tactical advantage to the United States? It's complex, but yes, the short answer is yes. But I think obviously there was an interest in ESP and in what he was doing and in this idea of, okay, what if this is real? I mean, he speaks a lot and we, you know, we've uncovered like hundreds of tape recordings of his that no one's ever heard. And so, you know, he talks a lot about like, they were just obsessed at that time with like, what if this were real? What are the. What are the implications? What if somebody could basically remote view? I mean, he was doing remote viewing. And this is something like I don't think is really out there, like way, way before SRI 70s. Like we're talking early 50s. Whoa. He's basically doing what would be considered remote viewing. Do you think Hal Puthoff was aware of Puharich's kind of foundation that he set with remote viewing? Because the story is that, you know, official American remote viewing kind of started with Hal Puthoff and Russell Targ and Stanford. Yeah, I'm not trying to make bold statements, but this is, that's not, you know, true. If you look, if you're looking at it from a like research, when did this start? Because we have like all of the round table research, which is so much. I mean, even all the time we spent on the film, it's, I still haven't looked at it at all, but they basically detail the experiments going on, which were, you know, your classic ESP stuff, you know, like the cards. Yep. All that. But no, they were doing like what would exactly the definition of like remote viewing. And so, yeah, I think they were, they, you know, intelligence community, so forth, where we're just very intrigued with what was going on there. So it's a combination of kind of, you know, these military factions and then these kind of blue blooded elites. Yeah. Sort of. And what exactly is going on there? So who is he recruiting to do? These experiments and what sort of experiments is he running at the Roundtable Foundation? So. I want to take a moment to thank one of today's sponsors, Z Biotics. I've been using their pre-alcohol product for years. And when the opportunity came up to work with them, I jumped at it because it's one of the few things I actually drink before a night out with friends when it's time to celebrate a special event. And that little decision I make before I go out changes everything. Z Biotics pre-alcohol probiotic drink is the world's first genetically engineered probiotic. It was invented by Ph.D. scientists to specifically tackle rough mornings after drinking. Here's how it works. When you drink, alcohol gets converted into a toxic byproduct in the gut. 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So who is he recruiting to do these experiments and what sort of experiments is he running at the Roundtable Foundation? So. Again, it started with a lot of just basic ESP stuff, you know, can can somebody pick up on what's written on a letter in the other room, a lot of yeah, like the card guessing, and then he obviously built a Faraday cage there. And I think, you know, was one of the first people, as far as I understand, doing ESP tests in a Faraday cage where basically he would like put people who claim to be psychic. In the cage. And it was his belief that that could sort of, you know, block out anything from the outside and it would really help the psychic focus and be able to do what they could do. And he had, I mean, Aldous Huxley would go to the Roundtable Foundation, right? And obviously Aldous Huxley is known probably best for a lot of his science fiction work, but but also, you know, the doors of perception where he talks about his experience with with mescaline. And then, you know, if you really get into it. If you really get into the maybe deeper kind of architectures of his thinking, like in perennial philosophy, he's like clearly this kind of deep esotericist. And so he was hanging out at the Roundtable Foundation, too. Yeah, they were good friends. In fact, on Buharach's book, The Sacred Mushroom, which is how I got into this whole thing. I had read that book when I was much younger and I was really interested in all that stuff. And, you know, what's the book? DMT, The Spirit Molecule. Yeah, I was really into that. And I came across The Sacred Mushroom, Buharach's book, which is very interesting. Have you read that? I haven't read it. Yeah, I think I have it, but I haven't read it. The premise is basically, you know, and this was also the research he was doing at the Roundtable was, you know, taking a certain type of mushroom, in this instance, the Amanita muscaria, you know, gives people ESP abilities. And they did extensive research on that there. But on the cover of that book, you know, Aldous Huxley gives a blurb for Buharach and calls him, you know, the greatest mind in parapsychology. But yeah, they were good friends. He was there all the time. Again, very interested in what he was doing. Really thought Buharach was like onto something. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And the Amanita muscaria mushroom is a very interesting mushroom. It's the kind of archetypal, you know, emoji on all of our, you know, cell phones or iPhones, at least. But it also, I believe. John Marco Allegro, who is, you know, a scholar of various, you know, ancient languages, he came to the very heretical conclusion that the Eucharist itself was an Amanita muscaria mushroom. And so the actual transubstantiation involved this, like, mushroom. And that maybe what Jesus underwent was some sort of kind of pagan mystery ritual that allowed him to sort of gain the magical powers that he achieved in the Book of Acts. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. The whole thing had some kind of hermetic meaning that, you know, isn't just maybe a literal reincarnation or something. Yeah. Yeah. And so I assume that must have, because I think his, the name of his book is similar. It's the Sacred Mushroom in the Cross or something. Yeah. Yeah. It is. So was there maybe some influence there with Buharach? I'm sure there was. You know, from what I understand, when Buharach's book came out, it was, you know, it's now sort of like a cult classic. But at the time it was like, you know, controversial. It was controversial because basically people just didn't believe in what he was writing. I think kind of kick-started the, you know, way people looked at Bukharic as being, you know, kind of like a kook. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But he clearly wasn't. Clearly, but he was, he also was amongst, he was kind of a pioneer and had a few peers who were also at the forefront of their fields. People like Albert Hoffman, Karl Ruck, and Stanislav Grof, who thought of themselves as creating what they called the new Eleusis, based on kind of, you know, past mystery rituals, the Eleusinian mystery rituals. And they involved Ur-God and psychedelic substances and, you know, these sort of, you know, Persephone's quest style, you know, you go down, you descend to the underworld and you come back up and you, you know, you gain knowledge of your primordial soul. And so, Bukharic was, you know. Uh, uh, yeah, he was amidst this backdrop. He was, he was sort of on his, on his come up, which, you know, maybe isn't a coincidence. We are the positive principles of cosmos. We penetrate, visit persons. We work for this body, but it is under our control. We nine and our will. The very first time that Ander heard about the Eleusis. The nine was through Dr. Phenod and never see people like this that I've studied. Dr. Phenod had become a channel for a civilization somewhere out there from outer space. It's so alien to our thinking. We can't even comprehend it. They call themselves these beings, the nine. What is the nine? They said, well, it's hard to explain to you. We're not personalities as you think of personality. We're more like laws. They're principled to the universe. The part of Puharich's story where I think things sort of change in his life is when, you know, this instance happens when the first channel, the nine, which was in 52. And it is correct. All these people were there. Again, these were people who were like benefactors who were interested in what he was doing. But, um, it all started with this guy, Venom. Phenod that you may have heard this name. He was, uh, an Indian psychic. He came to the round table again through recommendation of somebody Puharich that was working with. And the story goes, he shows up in Maine, goes to the round table foundation. And the first night he's there, he just unexpectedly falls into it, into a trance. And, you know, they're like, what's going on here. Someone grabs a tape recorder. Yeah. Which we have the tapes of, and he goes into a trance and he just starts speaking, you know, saying, you know, we are the nine and, uh, where we're coming through to you now. And, and just kind of on and on and on about a lot of philosophical new age sort of stuff, basically. I mean, it's really, really, it's a lot. I mean, there's, there's thousands of pages, literally of transcripts of what they recorded with him, but that's how it, it, it. The story goes of how the nine first appears based on this guy, Vinod, but mostly Vinod. So the interesting, interesting thing about this guy, Dr. Vinod was his name. He, he was friends with Gandhi, right? They were, they were really, they were really close. So this was something I learned like way later into the process of the film, because, you know, this was, as you know, it took like almost 10 years. And it was mostly because of these new facts and things were just like come up that I never knew or somebody. I would say, Hey, have you seen this? And, and so Vinod, like I only really discovered a couple of years into it, but he was an interesting guy and he was on a tour at the time in the United States, uh, going to like rotary clubs and dinner parties, like lecturing about theosophy and spiritualism and all sorts of stuff like that. And it is very, very little information on this guy. I mean, we tried to dig up like everything we possibly could. But that's what we know about him. He was a professor at a university in Bombay. And again, with Buhar, it's like, he never mentioned any of that. His version of the story is this guy. They just randomly came in, fell into a trance, no context, you know, never mentions it. So that begins this like, okay, what's, what's really going on here? Because he clearly is, has a background that's, that's interesting that he just never mentioned. And then when Vinod leaves eventually, I think 54, he goes back and it never talks about him again. You know, there was this huge moment in his life. The nine first comes through, through this guy and he just sort of like never talks about it. And I think that's where the conspiracy starts as far as what people believe to be like, I guess, a PSYOP. I mean, I don't want, we don't have to get into that now. No, I want to get into the PSYOP elements of it, but it, it sounds. It sounds like fundamentally he's a believer in extrasensory perception, psychic abilities, right? He's not cynical about those things or is he? Pruharic? Pruharic, yeah. No, yeah. That's, I think, a big question. And even now I, I always think, but I mean, yeah, there's just no question he was interested in that. Yeah. And, and earnestly, or do you think it was some front? Oh, earnestly. Yeah. Okay. Oh, for sure. Because what's, and we'll get into this in a little bit, but that there are also possible prosaic explanations around exotic, electromagnetic wavelengths that can cause, you know, thoughts to be implanted in people and stuff, which is nuts. Yeah, yeah. But I think he wouldn't reduce everything to that would be my rough understanding personally. No, no, no. Yeah. No, definitely not. Yeah, there's a lot to get into there, but basically, so what did the nine say? Yes. And so, again, it's really, it's a lot. So I have to give a shout out to Dick Russell. Yeah, I do. So, so he, he's awesome. He's a great guy. And he, he's written some amazing books. And so he, he was friends with this woman, Marianne Schenafield, this, you know, allegedly amazing psychic. She passed away, but I got to know Dick and he said, you know, I met Buharich once. In fact, I, I tape recorded an interview with him. It was 94, literally the year before Buharich died slash was found dead mysteriously. But he, he recorded an interview. And I got to know him, because at the time Dick Russell was wanting to write like a definitive book about MK ultra, and he wanted to interview these people involved in it. In fact, he has one of the only interviews, as far as I know, with Sidney Gottlieb spent a whole day with him. He literally showed, told me to showed up at his house and said, Hey, you know, yes or no, will you let me interview you? And, and he said, yes. And so he has that. So that this was part of that research he was doing for a book, but, um, just for the audience real quick. Cause I know we're getting into what the nine said, but Sidney Gottlieb was known as the kind of us version of Joseph Mingle, a poisoner in chief, an architect of MK ultra from the technical staff services. So that's wild Dick Russell spent a whole day with him. Yeah. So what, what are the nine saying? So, yeah, it's a lot of the sort of usual, I guess, channeling talk where there's this idea that there's. There's been this, this, uh, surveillance of, of earth and that they've been monitoring earth and they've been seeing the negative things happening. They've been seeing wars, they've been seeing nuclear weapons and they're wanting to help basically the, the, the general message is this idea that they are, are wanting to help the human race, you know, basically not destroy itself. This, you know, goes on. And way through the seventies when Buhar, the nine come back. Uh, but it's, it was basically a lot of, yeah, trying to help humanity. It was a lot of like, you've probably heard a lot about how they sometimes these channelers are, uh, you know, what is it called? Like remote writing when someone's in a automatic, automatic writing, there is a lot of like very complex equations that would come through that would the nine, the nine meaning Vinod in a trance speaking as the nine. A lot of like, write this down because you'll understand later what it means sort of stuff. And we have this notebook that he wrote everything in. It's, it's really, I mean, maybe I'm sure you might know somebody who could look at this. I mean, I, I'm just making the film. I mean, I, I'm very, well, we should see if any of it checks with actual science or math or it's crazy. They would say the nine, they would say, you know, okay, look, you're contacting us through a psychic. But if you want a clearer feed of a clearer transmission, you have to put the psychic in a Faraday cage. And on top of that, you should tweak the Faraday cage and build it this way and use this type of metal and use this. They were, they were telling him and constructing him how to like build the Faraday cage in a specific way that would like help this transmission. And it did well, because you can hear the tapes. It was a lot, it was very like stalled speech and waiting. And then when they did the Faraday cage sessions, it was like, just boom, they would talk. So I heard that and I was like, okay, well that that's. weird you know so crazy because like again there's a lot of it that you could just say oh you know this could have been made up or whatever but when it gets to that it was very very specific stuff you know copper they're big on copper you need to use that and it needs to be you know these dimensions i mean really specific stuff and they would follow it so they were basically like following instructions from the nine and you see the results get better as far as their channeling as you see the results get better and that again to me i just thought that's that's that's interesting because it's not just sort of like you know spiritual mumbo jumbo hand wavy stuff that's like totally unfalsifiable yeah it's like the literally like the transmissions are coming when you say that it's getting better it's just like more more gets channeled like more so yeah more information clearer yeah just sort of more precise and the other thing too was again it was this copper thing with copper where they would also say okay what you need to do is you need to get the this is really crazy because of what happens later on in his story but they would say you know you need to have copper touching your your skin and so you would you would need some sort of like bracelet or something that would kind of like constantly be touching your skin in order again for like the the transmission to be better and they would do that well and what's crazy is uh one of the space kids that i met and that we interviewed for the film she whipped out this uh this was you know only a couple years ago she whipped out this bracelet she had that was like a copper a little copper plate on this bracelet that she said like they all had to wear when they were doing their channeling sessions with him decades later so the copper thing is strange and he and buharj obsessed over that and that's the other thing to me you know being a little bit more aware of what's going on with him and what's going on with him so i was a little skeptical i was like well someone of buharj's uh you know academic abilities like clearly he he wouldn't take the time and the energy like to look into this stuff as deep as he did you know like he like obsessed over this he would go meet other academics hey does this check out and you know he really like was obsessive about this being legitimate and phyllis schlamer who later wrote the only planet of choice which channels the nine i think she talks about the nine with respect to messages around the earth being a bottleneck of consciousness right and like other planets being more ascended and these nine really trying to help raise consciousness yeah on earth which might sort of sound like a cliche but yeah one thing that they were doing at the round table uh was that this psychic uh this one particular psychic would would claim that at a certain time of night uh they would see an orb and they would go outside by the ocean and they would see orbs and this happened and the only you know evidence i i have is buharj his own writing because we have all of his journals and he writes this in his journals where he literally says like this psychic would just blurt out you know 11 o'clock you know tonight and they'd go out and they would see an orb whoa and i just thought that was interesting because of their so much talk of this orb stuff going on currently i don't know a whole lot about it but i just that kind of rang a bell where i'm like oh yeah he wrote about that and he he he did many experiments where he allegedly took photos which of course you know weren't in the big stash of photos we had from back then but he he that's what he claimed that there was like orb activity this would have been you know early 50s again yeah so trippy yeah i know that uh almost sounds like blood so or something these people who seem to attract uh these orbs and it would make sense because those people also seem to be sort of high psi or you know you know have higher kind of mind matter capabilities or whatever there's seems like there's some sort of correlation there the connection lavenda makes is that all these people conducting the seance bringing in these nine maybe extraterrestrial beings maybe beings that go to the nine egyptian uh gods or whatever we don't exactly know what these nine beings are but it's like a council and and later the nine plays prominently because this channeler phyllis schlamer uh like gets all these messages from the nine along with a lot of the kids and stuff yeah but but that that all of the people in this original seance with these blue-blooded elites are also entangled with the jfk assassination which is so crazy let's make a long story short there's a seance that's held in uh late 52 early i think it was the new year's eve of 52 to 53 and there are nine people involved in the seance now these are not just some casual nine people you pick up like you know your neighbors or something right this was a dupont and an aster and a forbes i mean everybody that represents the the blue-blooded brahmins of american society old money people were at a seance a freaking seance right in the woods in maine on new year's eve with andrea paharich and one of them uh is the guy who was the inventor of the bell helicopter right so is that arthur young arthur young so arthur young is there with his wife his wife is ruth forbes pain young right she had a lot of names she was excessively nomenclatured and so you have you know ruth forbes pain young she's a forbes she was married to george uh pain lyman pain and also married to arthur young so you can get in on the sports action no matter where you are including these places make this your most rewarding season ever with fan duel age and location restrictions apply product availability varies by market see fanduel.com for eligibility gambling problem call 1-800-GAMBLER so in that seance with the you know these kind of blue-blooded elites that proof rich is convening i think one of the people who's close with mary bancroft who's dallas's mistress is a woman named ruth forbes pain ruth forbes pain and so she's a forbes first so again go into the blue-blooded elite thing but i think her daughter is ruth pain who takes in lee harvey oswald i know and lee harvey oswald living with ruth pain and i think gets a job at the texas book depository in texas in dallas through ruth pain and then ends up you know maybe not being the lone gunman but you know attempting jfk's life and in her home she opens her door to some refugees you know people who are recent immigrants from russia lee harvey oswald and his wife marina and their kids whoa so they're living with ruth pain in this house in texas she gets him the job at the texas school book depository and so it's these weird entanglements where and the nine believed themselves to be sort of agents or sorry the the group in the seance believed themselves to be agents of these extraterrestrials right like to be acting on their behalf and so like and i know poor rich would stop at airports and try and meditate because he thought he would be bringing about world peace and that nine would speak to him through his watch and stuff yeah and so i wonder i mean i don't think you know the assassination of jfk was good he seemed like a great man who was resisting really dark forces yeah um so it's a strange story well i just want to hear something really strange about that oh yeah so legend has it that in 1943 the navy tried to teleport a ship in what's now known as the philadelphia experiment and it kind of worked it disappeared reappeared and then half the crew got atomically fused into the ship's walls others just vanished no one was where they were supposed to be talk about a breakdown in communication and you know who was leading the whole project my favorite the mid-century anti-gravity inventor thomas townsend brown who literally had a nervous breakdown that year due to the very poor communication among the team members you know what that sounds like your team before you had quo this year upgrade your system to a workspace that keeps your team from shattering across dimensions if you've ever tried to schedule a meeting across five time zones and six platforms you know the absolute horror of losing people to the ether that's why today's episode is brought to you by quo spelled q u o the smarter way to run your business communications it's a single streamlined command center for calls notes transcripts chats even ai summaries an all-in-one shared reality yours no vanishing no fusing into calendars just your team fully entangled and synced across time zones timelines even caffeine levels make this the year where no opportunity and no customer slips away try quo for free plus get 20 off your first six months when you go to quo.com slash jesse that's q u o.com slash jesse quo no missed calls no missed customers now back to the show i want to hear something really strange about that oh yeah so that's why you're here this yeah this this woman who i got to know very well uh who's in the film she was puharich's assistant for for many years and starting in i think 63 basically she worked with him i think until like the the mid 80s and she she's amazing she's from hawaii um very nice woman but she met him in new york she was a student at nyu and puharich was working um this is a whole other thing to get into but he had started his company there called intelectron corporation but she started as sort of an intern at this company intelectron which was basically a biomedical research company we can get into that but basically she told me a story that she was working at intelectron the day jfk was assassinated and that these men in suits she says came into the office and she was working at the jfk office and she was working at the jfk office went into puharich's office said something to him that seemed very serious and they left and she said the whole rest of the day puharich was out of sorts what this could be as simple as you know how horrible that this the president was shot or it could have been something else but she was very specific to say i remember this happening it was very strange but to finish the nine thing basically in in the fifth the round table in the fifth round table in the fifth round table in the ends in 57 i think right meaning they they for whatever reason i mean i think i know the reason basically he moved on to intellectron which i can talk about but he you know he claims oh that we ran out of funding the benefactors lost interest and it shut down but all the while he was getting money from the army i mean there's records of that but um so the nine stopped allegedly and i think lavenda i think talks about this but a lot of like the early nine related conspiracies start around that time too with this idea that it was a psyop or that it was this early psychological warfare experiment where can we get you know certain groups of people to believe in something and to what extent and a lot of people think that that was like the nine they think that's all it they think any sort of like real channeling or any is just you know is is fake and that it was all set up as this sort of psychological warfare experiment which you know there's there's reasons to think that sure that could be true but um that's where a lot of that you know starts you know i think that's possible but you think about like what when did mk ultra start it was probably there's probably stuff going on before 52 but really the korean war is like when you know conventionally it's it's dated to and the idea that they were that sophisticated at the very start of mk ultra where they could convince these sort of elite members of society that they were in touch with these specific extraterrestrial beings and that that that those extraterrestrial beings were constructing faraday chambers that were able to like make the messages they received more effective like like this elaborate sort of magic trick that that seems a little beyond the pale to me yeah but um that's it's a big mystery i mean even like i'll admit it the years and years i research i mean even i don't know like a lot of people i talk to who are interested in this stuff and know about the film and so forth like they think that i know all the answers and i i even i wish i did yeah and it's not like i'm hiding something because i'm worried that you know i'm gonna be a monitor i just don't you know i know what was in the archives and a lot of the film for me was like okay what what do we know what is a fact and let's like work off that yeah and so it was really just like okay here's the transcripts here's what they were saying speaking of what are the facts we have to get back to this intellectron thing yeah yeah like so here's the implication of this story that this company had something to do with the assassination of jfk or like were these men in tweed suits right yeah i mean i think that's a really good question i think that's a really good question yeah i think that's a really good question i think that's a really good question raiding the office the cia and were they they thinking that intellectron had something to do with this or so um so puharich yeah he leaves the round table he moves to new york city or he moves to awesoning a lot of people know this in relation to puharich because he lived there most his life upstate new york yeah it's uh you know an hour on the train north of the city you know madman of course the show like i didn't even realize all the characters they all live in awesoning like don i guess there's i remember watching it but there's some reference like they live in awesoning so it's a very you know wealthy area and all of a sudden puharich has what's considered like a mansion there basically huge house he moves there he tells his family that basically he just got this contract to study basically more of what was going on at the round table foundation but there were specific people who needed him to move to new york so they moved there i mean his family life is a whole different thing he had um his his wife sadly committed suicide around this time really yeah he was very like you know distraught about that and what happened i received a grim call from jenny's father jenny had quietly leapt from the hospital roof into eternity i wept for jenny i wept for my failure to keep her healthy and happy i wept for our three daughters who would never know a normal upbringing i cried out to god in crushing despair but so they moved to new york he starts this company called intellectron he gets a annie jacobson helped figure this out he gets a um a grant for three hundred thousand dollars which at the time would have been like at least a million dollars or more um from the atomic energy commission which is strange and we have all the documents that we found that proved that they went and visited him they gave him this grant so he starts this thing intellectron which is basically labeled as a biomedical research company so they have an office in a hell's kitchen and again with puharich i just it's it's i have to to stress like there is always these instances in his life this one being the really the first but it was sort of the round table too where like all of a sudden he just has this company and this and the and these employees yeah and this fund you know all of a sudden it's just you know kind of expensive to have a big office in new york city and all this and all this state of the art at the time electronic equipment and well it sounds like intelligence world front sort of stuff well how does that have a huge hedge fund oh yeah he just always had and it's always this company and basically in this was early 60s now 62 63 this is when he starts the the hearing experiments where basically he claims that deaf people would come into the office and they would do research on them and basically find a a device which would enable deaf people to to to hear basically by emitting a certain frequency that would somehow bypass like the the normal way we hear and go directly to the hearing center in the brain and it was this breakthrough medical discovery which you know go figure goes completely quiet no one no one ever hears about it yeah um but that's when he starts this whole you know radio frequency stuff voices in the head kind of stuff which again was under this you know we're researching on deaf people we're we're doing this you know in a medical sense we're helping people but that's when these you know men in suits show up that's when once again he's getting contracts from uh navy uh cia again almost everyone that was involved at the round table was back in this intelectron situation with him and so that i think the connection i mean i don't want to just jump to conclusions but i think what i've often thought with this jfk thing and why to melanie is assisted and seemed like such a big deal is that it may have had some tie-in with a mind control sort of like a sir han sir han situation with lee harvey i mean i know that's like a pretty crazy bold claim but that's that's just what i've thought it's not because um yeah they were doing that this is we're talking and again this is something i don't think a lot of people know and i think people don't realize a lot of that mk ultra stuff happened much earlier but they were doing this work in 6263 of like send basically sending messages to to people's uh heads you know and and we have footage we have i mean it's it's real the people from the atomic energy commission write very clearly in letters we found like we went annie jacobson talks about it i think book like one of the guys was like i don't believe you you know test me and just and and did the test on himself and it worked and then it goes it goes dark and intellectron closes and all of a sudden it's on to the next sort of you know mysterious company deep black program or yeah some other front company yeah that's really really trippy is there any explicit connection between lee harvey oswald and intellectron or that sort of speculation on your part i haven't looked but i just think you know if you want to go there it's like like lavenda says the whole connection there at the round table and then this weird incident where they seem to make a big deal about telling him about the assassination at that exact time that exact year they're researching ways to to be able to send messages to someone's mind to do something specific manchurian candidate etc etc apparently dullest did not want the fact that ruth payne had actually been at the summer house or whatever i think that summer right before jfk was assassinated yeah he did not want you know that at all on record i think mary bancroft like started to talk about it and he like you know he kind of acted like he didn't know what was going on when like you know he would have reacted earnestly if if he hadn't he clearly did know what was going on obviously dullest was probably you know among a very short list of people if you you know the intersection of capabilities motivation to to take out jfk dullest has to be on anybody's short list and then to further kind of steel man there maybe being a there there we know that jack ruby was an mk ultra patient i mean like 95 you know like you have letters between jolly west and sydney gottlieb who's definitely the kind of architect of mk ultra yeah you know and and jolly west was you know ucla psychology but clearly very involved in operation midnight climax and yeah maybe brainwashed charles manson and he sees jack ruby who never remembers killing lee harvey oswald yeah in his jail cell alone no cameras comes back comes out and says uh jack ruby has had a psychiatric break and then jack ruby you know who was fully lucid but just didn't remember having shot lee harvey oswald talks about jews dying outside of his cell and just like literally cracks um so very very strange you know possible connections well the other really strange thing at this time um was that pujarich was working with someone named jose delgado who he probably might know who that is delgado an old friend of ours brilliant researcher from spain implanted radio receivers in the heads of bulls delgado has remote control of the animal realize the fantastic possibilities if from the outside we could modify the inside could we give messages to the inside he was a guy from spain he was a researcher uh he was involved with a lot of this sort of mind stuff in the 60s late 50s 60s but i think he's mostly known as somebody who did experiments with implanting putting an implant in the head of a bull and basically controlled a bull and basically say go this stop go left go right and he was able to do it there's literally footage of of the experiment happening uh and pujarich we later found out was was close friends as pujarich says himself with delgado we found letters between the two of them during this time and it was nothing too sinister it was mostly like hey i'm going to go to this conference are you going to be there but they clearly were close i mean there's some people i met during the process of this who were like don't don't even go there and don't talk about the connection you had with delgado but you know i i was interested to know it's fascinating you have a guy who's being able to pacify a bull and play the bull like a video game and that clearly was the heir to mk ultra which was mostly sodium pentothal lsd that sort of thing and he was able to chemical based at if if in the early 60s we had chips that could control animals and you had heirs to mk ultra like mk often which were done i believe at the science and engineering institute um in the northeast as well yeah it's like well of course you know we're going to be way more advanced on that stuff now it's it's creepy to think about it's one of those things you don't even want to think about it because the second you do think about it you get into reality being far weirder than we could ever imagine so yeah if you think okay they're putting an implant in the head of a bull like you say basically remote controlling the thing why wouldn't you try to do that to a human being i mean why why wouldn't you and i think that was going on at intelectron i mean i i'm i'm sure of it because there's just way too many there's way too many connections i don't have a document that says here's the experiment we did but um that whole decade of the 60s was such a a odd decade for buharji was so like quiet like all there's all these records of the round table you know tapes photos everything and all of a sudden you get to the 60s it's like nothing really very little documentation very little you know photographic evidence of what he was up to and all of a sudden the 70s boom picks back up there's a hundred photo so it's very mysterious decade and it was just it just so happened to be when he had this company in electron yeah with these very odd connections delgada i think it's becoming super clear that and the other thing too yeah not to cut you off is i i've with all this stuff in this film i've gone to like the ends of the earth they're trying to track down and nothing absolutely nothing this place never existed in electron you would not find the only thing i ever found was the there's a guy uh pretty interesting guy actually his name is beardsley graham he was uh involved uh in nasa in the 60s early 70s colleague of buharji's but he was like i guess like he was somehow involved in intellectron as like an outside consultant or something and in his archives at uh berkeley there was like a couple documents that had you know an electron letterhead and it was like correspondence and that was like the only thing i could find and even in that it was nothing revealing it was again it was just like records and sort of like you know financial records which again didn't point to anything yeah you know so so there's just this place did not exist but it's very much crazy yeah very much did well it's i mean now i feel like it's one of these things that's slowly shifting you know and i i think more and more people are going to start to recognize the fact that mk ultra had a role not only in the jfk assassination but in the rfk assassination you mentioned sir han sir han who had written in his diary right before he shot rfk just like over and over it was like some neuro-linguistic programming was coming through him to this day does not remember having shot him he's like you know i must kill him must kill you know sort of thing um and you have rfk jr now who's head of the fda he himself has gone deep on his father's death i think he was 14 at the time and i think he recognizes that he was actually shot from the back and not from the front so there was this other gunman again just like jfk i think he thinks that you know mk ultra was involved you know this guy william jennings bryan not to be confused with the 1890s william jennings bryan um was this kind of mysterious deep statey figure who i believe was talking to him about the death of his father with sir han sir han and um so i you know i i think these things are going to start to come out that uh mk ultra was far more pervasive than than we ever realized and there's even a book called i don't know if you know about this book the controllers by martin cannon yeah yeah he mentions uh buharach in that so let's this book is insane what what's the what's the thesis of this book uh fan duel is now available everywhere in the u.s so you can get in on the sports action no matter where you are including these places make this your most rewarding season ever with fan duel age and location restrictions apply product availability varies by market see fanduel.com for eligibility gambling problem call 1-800-GAMBLER as you know a lot of the guests i sit down with whether they're physicists intelligence officers or scientists i'm not going to lie to you i'm not going to lie to you i'm not people who've worked inside black programs are operating at a really impressive level mentally sometimes i feel like i'm a chimp talking to human beings often their work takes a toll and a lot of them track their health obsessively regular lab work obscure biomarkers often things that most people never look at meanwhile last time i went to a primary care doctor they ran maybe like eight biomarkers and they told me i was fine and sent me home this massive difference between the ordinary broken and limited health care system and what elite people are doing to track their health got me interested in super power The beautiful thing is they make elite-level healthcare accessible. They'll literally send a licensed professional to your home, or you visit a nearby lab. One simple lab test and you get over 100 biomarkers. Heart, liver, thyroid, hormones, metabolism, vitamin levels, even environmental toxins. After that, their app builds you a full action plan. Supplement suggestions you can buy directly through them. Nutritional guidance. Lifestyle adjustments. They even give you your true biological age, and you can track that over time. And it's not just a one-time snapshot. Each test builds on the last, so you're actually seeing progress instead of starting from zero every year. Make this the year you stop guessing about your health and you start getting serious with Superpower. Not only did Superpower reduce their price to just $199, but for a limited time, our listeners get an additional $20 off. With Superpower, you can get a free trial of Superpower. I don't know the answer to that question. I don't think. I think he was lying, and I think the program is real. The genesis of it was in 1947, we came in contact with an alien species, and in 1960, they started a project, it was called Project Preserved Destiny, and it was designed to genetically manage fetuses, human fetuses, so that they would have the heightened ability to do this particular thing that I was going to school for. And he said, I'm going to play a tone, and I want you to mentally hum that tone. And he said that you will eventually feel a connection, the line will change. When I saw the sine wave move, I went, oh, okay, well, there's a mental disconnect there that that's not supposed to be happening, this is not possible. Do you think that it was kind of a development from. You know, what you were looking into with Pujard? I'd have to imagine it was. And that's always the question, you know? You said there are a lot of sine waves, he literally says I had to flatten a sine wave. When I saw the sine wave move, it is like it came into focus, this thing that I was doing in my head. That's why I reached out, because again, for me, a lot of this was, okay, I have all this information, I'm not a physicist. Most of this stuff. But I'd have to imagine it's connected, because Pujard, the way this machine worked as well, had something to do with specific sine waves, very, very specific. You know, he was always talking about sine waves. And so I just, I can't imagine that that wasn't some sort of early interpretation of what he was talking about. And you have this machine that you like, where you like, you're matching tones and stuff. I mean, that sounds exactly like Sherman. Yeah. It's all. It's all tone. It's all tones. And then the thing with the machine is, again, and like you said, sounding crazy, like for a long time, making this film, you know, like I had to really grapple with like that a lot, because I knew what I was hearing and sort of not so much researching, because a lot of stuff we got were like tapes of these experiments. So it's not just like I'm reading a report, you're hearing it. So I'm hearing, you know. You know, these channeling sessions, I'm hearing these experiments, he's doing an electron and, you know, you can just tell something's going on, something strange. And so you're right. I mean, I think like if that was happening in 60, 61, 62, I mean, I don't know. And this gets transitions into the Uri Geller stuff, which I believe is very much involved in that same sort of research. But. How so? Yeah. Well, I think it's my belief that Geller was sort of like a mind control guinea pig in a way. There's a lot of context that would prove that that was what his sort of role was in this whole Puharich story. Explain that. That's fascinating. Well, he. So basically, Puharich in the 60s, we had Intellectron. And the thing is. And the thing is, too, with this device he invented, the TD-100, it was called, which was called Transdermal 100. But, again, this was supposed to be this breakthrough, you know, medical device where people who are deaf can hear, you know, think about what we could do with this. But it just goes like, again, he never talks about it. No one in his family, oh, yeah, I wonder what ever happened to that. Like, you would think that with such an amazing discovery, like, something would have come. It was just like, went dark, basically, probably around 68. He never talks about it. Again, only way later in his life, he never ever talks about it. Of course, we learned he was using it with the space kids years later that nobody knew about that. So he's coming off the tail end of all the Intellectron stuff, right? Right when he meets Geller. Like, literally, it was 1970 is when he first hears about Geller, goes to Israel. Intellectron is still. I mean, from what I understand, like, it was still very much, you know, an operating company. So he's going to Israel to meet Uri Geller while he's still very much involved in the research of essentially sending messages to people. And he gets to Israel. He discovers Uri Geller. I mean, I think a lot of people know this story, but, you know, Geller was was allegedly this very amazing psychic guy who could bend spoons with his mind and read people's minds and do all sorts of things like that. He could, like, hover his hand over a watch and then it would the hands would move and and all these kinds of things. And so do you believe he could actually do those things? Or do you think that was stage magic? Or all I can say about that is he did bend a spoon for us when we did the interview, and I don't know how he did it. Well, so that's all I can say. It could have been a trick. But I can't to this day figure out how he did it. You know, the easy debunks on things like that. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So all I can say is, like, yeah, it could have been a trick, but it was definitely kind of strange and cool and he did do it. But he so Puharich, you know, again, the story goes, Puharich was kind of smitten with Geller and oh, my God, this guy is, you know, an amazing psychic. I mean, I'm interested in psychic phenomena. I want to study him. So he brings him back. But what? What people don't really know, unless they read Puharich's book on Uri Geller, which is kind of like a rare book to come across. But he has this whole episode in Israel before he even brings him back to the United States where he basically hypnotizes Geller and, you know, the nine come through. And all of a sudden, after however many years, you know, 53 from when Dr. Vanah did it to 71. And guess what? Happens. He starts channeling the nine, Uri Geller. And so Puharich is, you know, shot up, apparently shocked. And, you know, I can't believe this is happening. You know, there's all these tape recordings we have of this going down. And that kind of kick starts again. The whole nine thing comes back into the picture through through Uri Geller. And all of a sudden, they're like back, you know, and he's channeling them. And he's communicating with them. But it's very strange because Puharich, as I just said, was still very much involved in the Intellectron Company, which, as we know, was experimenting with being able to send voices, send thoughts to people. And so one could assume that Uri Geller was a, you know, experiment in that way when the nine just so happened to reappear. And it's also strange because I think a lot of people know, like, Geller has claimed his involvement with Mossad and his Israeli intelligence and all these things. There's reason to believe Puharich may have been a double agent for Israel. In fact, he says he's he says it really tape, but he kind of says it in a jokey way. And so I had always just stuck to me like, OK, is this a joke? Have you found any connections between him? Yeah. Yeah. What were the connections? Besides Uri Geller, obviously. Well, he. So we did tons of like FOIA requests trying to trying to find stuff on him and like basically got nothing. But the only thing we were able to get was this big chunk of FBI documents, which is basically monitoring all of his movements in Israel, literally page after page. He just got here. He's leaving. He picked this bag up. He did, you know, in the exact years he's he's going there. He's going there. He's going there. He's going to see Geller so that that there's that. And then multiple people who knew him who never really said anything until much later in their lives told me that he he was Mossad. Again, I there's I don't have a document or something that that that proves this. And then Pujaric also mentions in a letter he was writing to. There's a good friend of his, this woman who kind of helped him with bookkeeping and stuff. And she was like his closest confidant. And he would write these letters to her all the time. It's very clear that they were close. You know, he spoke with her very differently than other people. But he basically admitted to being part of a Israeli U.S. mind can, you know, mind control program that was happening at Aberdeen Proving Grounds. Which isn't, you know, is an is an army base. And I read that. And, you know, again, what what do you make of it? It's either true or for some reason he's making it up. I don't know why. It's fascinating. So he wrote that. And then in this tape, he kind of jokingly says, I'm a I'm a I'm a double agent for the Israelis. And he also was always there. You know, that's the other thing. Like, yes, he went. to, to, to investigate Geller, but you know, he was even through. the eighties, like well after him and Geller kind of parted ways, he's always going there. Um, on a lot of the channeling tapes that are happening in the seventies with the space kids, he's, he's referring by name to Israeli generals, this one guy, uh, Aharon Yariv, who was, I think the head of, uh, army intelligence, very, you can look him up. I mean, he was constantly, can, should we, uh, give this information to Yariv always referring to him and other people, um, high up there. So a lot of red flags, nothing, again, no concrete, you know, document or something, but, uh, it's strange. And I don't know. I mean, again, that's something like after all this time, I'm still thinking, okay, what, what was really going on there? You know, fascinating, man. What, what do you think when, when he goes to Israel initially to see Geller in 1971, and he, uh, Geller's kind of channeling the nine again, is it like the nine are somehow like he has a protocol to like summon these specific nine extraterrestrial beings? Is it this cynical hypnotic technique that he's doing where he's implanting this idea of nine extraterrestrial beings? Or what do you think that is? Is he, is he calling in something that exists in reality, these nine, you know, entities, or is he creating those entities synthetically? So you can get in on the sports action, no matter where you are, including these places. Gambling problem? Call 1-800-GEMBLER. First of all, just to quickly mention, like, this, this idea that Buharach is very, um, there's always two stories, right? So when he went to Israel for the first time in some lecture, uh, we have, he said, oh, you know, there was this parapsychology foundation and they wanted me to go. So they scraped some money together and I, they, I was able to get a plane ticket and I went to, I went to Tel Aviv and then that's how I got there. Right? And then Geller himself said, oh yeah, no, he, he was sent by the CIA, like, directly. He, he was consulting for CIA. That's why he came. And then someone else, uh, close to Buharach said, oh yeah, like that, he was CIA, that's why he went. But in this lecture, in fact, twice in two separate lectures, Buharach, when he, he kind of tells the story to an audience, you know, and he says, oh yeah, they just, you know, bought me a ticket at this foundation. So, you know, again, a little thought in my mind where I'm like, okay, who's, who's telling the truth, you know? Yeah. I think it's obvious, but, um, but with the nine, I mean, so yeah, it, it all did come from, from, uh, hypnosis. That was the protocol. It was a very, you know, your typical countdown from a certain number. Um, once you get there, you know, you're in a state where they can come through. And I do think, again, like I mentioned earlier, kind of having to accept some of these bigger parts of the story. Like I do think, uh, to some extent, like he was implanting this idea because you can, you can, I mean, you can hear it. I mean, again, this isn't like speculation, like on the tapes, you can very much hear him saying, you know, is, is it the not, you know, the, the type of like leading questions. I think that a lot of people say, oh, you know, you can't trust a hypnosis if they're doing this. And it was, it was, it was that. It was very leading. I mean, it was, it was, it was, it was, it was, it was, it was, it was, it was, it was and are you sure it's not the nine and, oh, actually, yeah, you're right. It is. And that kind of thing. But what's so confusing is there's, there's a lot of other sessions you did where it was like, not like that at all. The complete opposite, you know, not leading at all. And the nine would still come through. Yeah. So that's interesting. Yeah. And that always goes back to the crux of, of like, okay, what was he? Yes. He believed in this stuff, but yes, he was also involved in very, by his own, own admitted it's, you know, involved in, in MK ultra and all these things. So it's like, what believer master manipulator? I mean, I, I usually, clearly he was manipulative somewhat. Yeah. I usually get to the end of these questions thinking it's like a yes. And like an improv or whatever, it's, it's usually not like one neat solution kind of explains everything away. Yeah. You know, one neat solution that would explain everything away would be, you can think of the Archimedes lever of reality itself and it's mind control, right? Like that. That would explain like aliens reverse engineer, like so many things. Um, but then you, you get into like the facts and the facts are just weirder than you think often. And it's, it's like, well, I actually think there might be these other beings that come in and certain cases he's not asking leading questions, but it's, uh, it's, it's fascinating. He also, he isolates specific, um, extra low frequency waves that he thinks are particularly powerful as far as implanting thoughts. Is that right? Yeah, there's, uh, and again, this was interesting because his, uh, research into, you know, ELF extremely low frequency, you know, that was much later, like late seventies, eighties. He was very involved in that, but I figured out like, once again, like this origin point of the round table foundation, like he was researching this stuff back then, like this very specific, extremely low frequency that can. He figured out like penetrate the walls of a Faraday cage. That was like the only, uh, you know, frequency that could do that. You know, they went on to use that frequency with like submarine experiments. So that he believed was like the frequency that could carry, you know, audio information to somebody's head. Uh, and he was very concerned that the Soviets had similar capabilities. Yeah. I mean, there's, you know, project Pandora. Which started in, I think the sixties, which, you know, going back to intellect Ron, that was right around the time this was happening, which was, you know, yeah, the same thing that Russians had these sort of radio frequency weapons, which, which, you know, they did. I mean, that's all proven at that time. I mean, this is like pre Havana syndrome stuff. And so coincidentally, you know, at intellect Ron, they're doing a lot of that same stuff. I do firmly believe that, that Geller was some sort of. Guinea pig for these experiments, because it's, it's just too many weird red flags around this time that he meets him. And I think, and again, I could be totally wrong, but I think that there was just this, you know, we need to experiment on a real, you know, human being with some of this stuff. And again, it goes back to this MK ultra, the, you know, LSD, you know, giving LSD to unwitting people. Like I said, I don't know. But at a certain point with these kinds of experiments, you need to, you know, do it on a real person or else you're never going to know how someone in, you know, the real world will react. And I think Geller, you know, was, was part of something like this because there's a lot of experiments they did where there's a story, for instance, where Geller allegedly teleported. So he was walking down the street in New York city. I think he claims he's walked down the street in New York city, gets a weird feeling, right? All of a sudden he wakes up and he's in Austin in New York, which is, you know, however, 50 miles or whatever. And, and he crashes through the screen porch. There's footage, super eight movie footage of, of Buhar filming the screen porch after this allegedly happened. It's all smashed through. Right. And Geller allegedly winds up in Austin. And he teleported and from New York city and Puharich claims or told Geller, oh yeah, this happened. And the nine did this basically you, since you were questioning their ability and their power, they said, well, we're going to do something that will make you, you know, never question us again. And they did this teleportation. Right. And the weird thing is again, like the length Puharich went to, to actually, you know, get a look, you know, again, people don't remember this was like seventies, like get a load of film, you know, put it in the, put it in the camera film, get the, get the film transferred and, and be like, Hey, look, I actually filmed when you, right after you flew into the window and here it is, it's, it's proof. So, you know, he's, he's, he's doing that, but I, I, that was just one instance of me thinking like, oh, okay. Like this is a way to get. Somebody to believe that some crazy event like that really happened and Geller believed it. I mean, he, he talks about it. He wrote about it. And I think later in his life, he, he, he started to question everything. And he even came out with a statement on a radio show in like 2019 saying that Puharich had experimented on him with, with mushrooms and had experimented extensively with him, uh, uh, with, with hypnosis. But again, like that story. is crazy. And he, and I think it's like, okay, like if you can get somebody to believe that they had been teleported. And I mean, what else could you get someone to believe? And I just think it was all part of that type of experimentation. And Buharich himself, way later in his life, like I said, when he starts to kind of reveal things, he says himself, I was involved in a program and my boss was the guy who did all research with hypnosis and mind manipulation. So he was doing it. And I think a lot of the Geller stuff was just like, okay, we need a guinea pig here to see if some of these wild ideas work. So wild. I think there's a story too that Geller tells around him meeting Wernher von Braun and Wernher von Braun taking him to a safe that contained some UFO artifacts, maybe from Roswell. Yeah. Well, Wernher von Braun, again, was somebody close to Buharich in the sixties specifically. Yeah. His assistant, the same one I told you about who made the JFK comment said, yeah, he talked to him all the time. So that was yet another person who was just kind of part of his Rolodex. But yeah, I think Geller said something effective. Yeah. He showed him some photographs of, yeah, something from Roswell or revealed facts to him. And I think he showed him material. And I think he felt like he had a telepathic connection with the material. Wernher von Braun takes me into his personal office. There is a safe in the office. He opens the safe. I see a piece of metal. I've never seen such a color. Pulls it out. It's not heavy. Says, Uri, touch this. Tell me what you feel now. I put my hand on it and I say, Wernher, this is not from here. He says, you're right. This is a piece of a UFO that crashed on our planet. It's like he knew. That it was not from here or something like he showed it to him and he goes, it's not from here. And he goes, how did you know? So it's, you know, some of the, it's so interesting. The other thing too, and this goes back to the, the controllers, um, book, a lot of the stories. And again, keep in mind, this is all pre coming to the U S going to SRI. Everyone knows that stuff. This is in, in Tel Aviv before any of that. And he, another story like this teleportation one there in, um, the Sion, I desert, they're driving around in a, in a Jeep and they're, they see a UFO and Geller all of a sudden, I mean, who heart his book on Geller is fun to read, you know, in and of itself is because it's like, it's just like a cool, crazy sci-fi book, if anything, even though it's supposed to be, you know, nonfiction, but he claims that this UFO lands, Geller goes into like a trance boards, the, the UFO. Comes back with like a pen and said, or something like a pen and basically said, you know, oh, they, these, these beings told me to keep this. Cause this will forever be proof that I, I, uh, you know, went on this craft, but the same thing, it's always like, oh, he's in a trance before this happens, you know, apparently. And then it's that same idea of like, he believed it and Puharich kind of substantiated. Oh yeah. You know, we saw it land and we saw you walk on it. And, but then it always goes to that question. Like why, again, you could just say, oh, well they wanted to experiment with, can you get someone to believe in? And we're just kind of framing it around this ET UFO thing, but it's always like, why, why do this? You know, why, why was he doing this? Yeah. Uh, you know, I don't, cause again, there's no concrete proof. Oh, Geller was a guinea pig. He was, he was a subject. Like I'm just kind of putting the pieces together, but it just seems. It seems to me that it's like, let's take this UFO ET framework and do these kind of mind manipulation experiments around that and see, you know, see what, what people can believe. And, uh. You also get into weird territory where it's like, it does again, the MK ultra thing, just explain everything, which is like such a dark version of the truth, but it's possible. We have to entertain that. Yeah. Or. Is. Does MK ultra. Actually converging on a technique that the, you know, extraterrestrials or NHI non-human intelligence already has mastery over vis-a-vis its ability to like manipulate human beings. Like I think of one of the most credible cases for me as a guy named Mario Woods, um, who is, uh, at Ellsworth air force base in 1977 in South Dakota. And he was a missile security officer. And he's just like a really upright, great guy. And he, uh. He, uh, thought, you know, like this sort of like B2 bomber was like kind of winking at him and in the distance, he and his, um, uh, you know, um, teammate or whatever, his colleague, Michael Johnson go in this little Jeep and they follow it. Uh, they, they, they get there and it's this like huge, like plasma orb that's glowing. It's red hot. And it, uh, it's the size of a Walmart is the, the line he always says. It's sort of this crazy iconic line, you know? And, um. And, uh, he ends up nine being transported nine miles, um, away from the base, uh, like behind a dam. And it's like the, it's the next morning. He has no idea what happened. And all, all he, I think had remembered was beings walking toward him saying, do not fear, do not fear. And then he gets a hypnotic regression and he realizes that, you know, possibly he boarded a craft. And what's really interesting is he says that after, when he gets sort of, you know, debriefed. And they check his teeth. I think he said that like the guy checking him now said that there was some sort of ambient radiation in his mouth or something from that time. It's really sort of crazy. Um. Yeah, that is the tooth thing is really strange. And there's a lot online about, um, there's a story about a, an individual who changed his name in fact, cause he didn't want to be associated with this, but this was, um. So, so post Geller, right. So, so Geller, uh, Lee, basically they, they kind of split up, get Geller wants to, to move on. And again, way later in this 2019 interview, he, he kind of opens up and said that, yeah, I was kind of like afraid, you know, and he, he, he really opens up. Like, I didn't know what was kind of going on and, and I was suspicious and I just wanted to get away basically from this guy. And so he, you know, but he was famous at that time anyways. So he leaves. Buharich is, you know, trying to find another subject to bring through the nine he, he claims. So this is even pre Phyllis Schlemmer is right around cause Phyllis Schlemmer was sort of the next channel that he, he discovers that, that brings through the nine. But before Phyllis, there was this guy in Florida where Phyllis was from. She knew this guy. He was part of a, um, a psychic class that she, she taught. And again, I've heard from a lot of people that this woman, Phyllis. Was like a legit psychic, you know, knowing things about people and so forth. But there's this guy that she knew. She introduces him to Buharich. Uh, they do a bunch of experiments. Yeah, sure enough. He puts him, he, he hypnotizes him and he is communicating with not the nine, but it was some other being can't remember the name. But anyways, this guy says, you know, I got really, really weird vibes, you know, et cetera. But lo and behold, he wakes up one day and realizes he has a, uh, metal filling that he never had. And he goes to the dentist and says, you know, w what's going on here. I, I didn't get this done and they, they looked and said, yeah, this was done, um, you know, professionally, there's no question about it. And, oh, complete side note. The guy that Buharich, uh, ran into electron with was a. Dentist what that he met in the army. So this guy discovers a, a, um, uh, a filling he never had. He completely freaks out and, and leaves the, the group that is Buharich Phyllis. And, and it's sad. And again, this always comes back to this, like not avoiding the, the negative stuff. Like apparently the guy went like, you know, crazy. He, he just had like a mental breakdown. There's a couple other people in the, the sphere of this story that this happened to. But that's like a real story and the guide, you know, and he brought it up to Buharich and they said, oh, you know, we don't know what you're talking about. We, this, we weren't involved with this, or I think, you know, actually, I think what they said was, oh, you know, this was done by the, the beings, your talk, they wanted this to happen and they, they did this somehow. And, and so it's very bizarre, you know, um, but that goes back to the, the, I mean, what you just told me is crazy because this was early seventies. So there might be something going on with this, this two thing and, you know, again, I think the film does a good job of this, or I hope it does is, is, you know, I don't believe or, and especially don't want to believe that MKUltra is responsible for everything and all of this stuff because there's a couple of stories in Buharich's life that, you know, do seem like legitimate sort of extraordinary encounters, for instance, um, in the literature. Yeah. his cousins and people who you know are very skeptical about all of this stuff skeptical of puharich's whole world but some psychic uh that that night or that day said later tonight you know i just got a message that like a ufo is going to show itself over the house and so we have the video puharich's son andy who's an awesome guy he he did this kind of like funny video where he interviewed like all the people who were there at this family gathering and said you know what do you think is going to happen do you think it's going to show up and everyone said oh yes or no but that night um multiple people saw this huge ufo and andy tells the story and he like he gets emotional telling it and he's a again a totally sane guy you know of course his dad was andre puharich but like he's he's very normal seeing guy he said yeah of course you know the camera wasn't out because it was much later in the night and again pre-iphone of course you know you gotta run in and grab this bulky vhs camcorder but apparently like him that puharich's son and two or three of the cousins all saw this huge thing is silently hovered over so wild and that and and his son again very emotionally says like that was the moment i said okay like i i believe in in this stuff and and i believe in in in things my dad did and he just had a very emotional reaction to that moment so it's stories like that where i go okay well you know what puharich is in running some mk ultra experiment on his family you know decades after now all this stuff so so yeah i don't want to put this idea out there that you know i i think that way i mean again it's just there's too many red flags in his story that sure point to his involvement but then there's that story where even his cousin who didn't want to be interviewed or everybody did talk to him and he was like yeah that happened you know well i think there's something it's like everybody sees the world through a perceptual prism or container and i'm sure with his hypnotic techniques and with mk ultra and with implants and all these things you can break that container and then probably intentionally shade or manipulate the world and then you can break that container and then manipulate what people experience yeah but the idea that there's nothing outside of that perceptual prism that involves other entities between man and god or you know whatever your metaphysical beliefs are i think also involves some sort of hubris like you know you can you can have both but um it's yeah this is i mean this is one of the craziest interviews i've ever done man this is crazy i mean i'm i feel like shocked like listening to all these facts and i'm just thinking as you're talking about puharich's son and this ufo showing up um what was night because i think of 1952 as the you know dc fly over washington invasion like maybe the most intense uh ufo showing in united states history as far as mass media covering it people seeing things you know i actually recently met a witness from 1952 and and and he was pretty amazing and he remembers it and stuff he's one of the probably last living wow that's amazing yeah but do you think that had anything to do with the seance because i think of the seance with you know the original channeling of the nine it was 52 do you know what month uh it was it was um new year's eve okay well i mean it was before then because the so the the again i don't want to engage in any sort of you know selection bias here but july 1952 was when it was the thing showed up and so but a lot of that early channeling with the nod that was all you know 52 interesting yeah into 53 i mean it could have been and i told you like he he wrote in his journals about these orbs and one of the psychics psychics say you know go outside tonight you're going to see an orbs you know well every every time i want to get away from like the occult having to do with ufos it's like it's just so obviously does have everything to do and there's there's even a group called the borderland society which was borderland well which one the borderlands research yeah yeah arch is very involved in that in fact a lot of the recordings we have not a lot but some of them came from from them they were really they were they had a bunch of stuff saved actually so there's a really amazing like kind of nuts and bolts ufo researcher who i think did some software stuff for spacex his name is richard geldreich and he he uh has uncovered like a couple of ufo either crashes or appearances where the borderland society knew about these ufos and they were like oh my god i'm gonna die i'm gonna die i'm gonna die i'm gonna die i'm gonna die like a couple of ufo appearances before the military did before the army before the air force so and then you have you know this 1933 magenta crash which it seems like is getting increasingly corroborated david grush harold malmgren both talk about it and hugh angleton and james jesus angleton were there and you know maybe there's some occult stuff going on there yeah with the knights of malta right you know who knows but you know pujar was a master mason he was yeah and um he tells his story uh in a lecture much later in his life about how he was always approached by these you know what he would call kind of dark occult groups and and societies and people trying to like get him to join and he he didn't want anything to do with it and that kind of thing well werner von braun was also i believe a freemason and he had gone through all these weird neo-pagan rituals as part of the war and he was like oh my god i'm gonna die i'm gonna die i'm gonna the german space program he was also close with walt disney and i think they're they made a little movie together and there's some freemasonic symbolism there there's launch pad 33 in real life that he sort of created and then uh my buddy danny jones just did an interview with one of the last living apollo astronauts charlie duke and the number one moon landing hoaxer person bart and danny on the phone with me is like dude i'm not sure that the early astronauts weren't mk ultra and it's we you know and it's like you have you know a picture of jolly west on the set of 2001 space odyssey you have you know this yeah yeah yeah i think i did hear about that yeah yeah and so that's insane it is insane it is insane and and then you have these you know it's like the neil armstrong looking like you know he's in a hostage video joe rogan describes it like that you know um after he comes back from the moon and so that is strange you have to wonder if there's some sort of like weird my you know and if i didn't know puharich and you warner von braun you have one of the mk ultra architects yeah in touch with the head of the american space part it's weird fan duel is now available everywhere in the u.s so you can get in on the sports action no matter where you are including these places and georgia news make this your most rewarding season ever with fan duel age and location restrictions apply product availability varies by market see fanduel.com for eligibility gambling problem call 1-800-GAMBLER well the other thing too with the the nasa connection with puharich is again in the 60s um he was doing like a ton of like contract work for all sorts of um different agencies but so this is actually in newspaper articles we've seen in the newspaper articles but they were doing like telepathy uh experiments with with astronauts and and puharich claims this i've never heard it we don't have the tape but he claims that they before they went to the moon right they didn't know the surface of the moon what it would would be like really so they were saying okay how can we land a craft what we don't could it be hot is it gonna is it cold is it uh is it a spike whatever so he he's been doing this for a long time and he's been doing this for a long time he claims that they send remote viewers to the moon to get a picture of like what it would be like uh so they would feel comfortable with like sending whatever you know if if they went to to to send stuff there and he says yeah you know somewhere in the nasa archives i'm sure there's the tapes we did where we recorded this psychic kind of remote viewing the moon and and he and he had the contracts from nasa like we don't we have one that doesn't say that but he clearly you know worked with them we have we have documentation of that didn't nasa also have a camp around with space children or whatever psychic yeah i've heard a lot about that um but i don't i don't know much about that i mean i know about obviously puharich we can get into that but yeah i've heard a lot about that that they're in the late 60s there's somewhere in florida there's like a nasa thing with kids but i honestly i don't know i think gordon cooper might talk about oh dude gordon cooper was very involved with puharich so this is one of the this is the guy who spent longer in the earth's orbit you know in space than anyone prior to him he went in the late 50s and yeah he went to awesoming like many times and in his book he writes about um going there seeing experiments with the faraday cage seeing the space kids um yeah why was he so interested in the space kids i mean why was a nasa astronaut interested in psychic research um i don't know i mean well i think coop Gordon Cooper, I mean, didn't he have some UFO stories or experiences? Or at least he was open to talking about that stuff. We had some kind of craft flying overhead at pretty good altitude and flying the same kind of formation we fly in our fighter. Were they planes? Well, it turns out they didn't have wings. They were saucer-shaped. We never could get as high or as fast as they were, so I had to really positively identify them, but they were metallic-looking and saucer-shaped. So he was definitely interested in this stuff. And, yeah, so he went up there. Everyone went up there. I mean, the whole Gene Roddenberry thing is crazy. Yeah, the creator of Star Trek. Yeah, so that's something I read about, and I thought, oh, that's interesting. But in Puharch's archive, sure enough, is the tape that no one's ever heard of this session. That is kind of, like, crazy to be in possession of. But basically, they would do these kind of roundtable-esque channelings where, like back then, these prominent people at the time, we're now in mid-'70s, would come there, spend time there, and they would do these sessions, and Gene Roddenberry went up a lot. And he makes mention on this one tape recording that, like, you know, he says, like, like I've said many times in the past, which would indicate that this wasn't the first time he was a part of, like, a channeling session with them. But, yeah, we have the tape where it was Roddenberry, Puharch, and Phyllis Schlemmer was the channeler. And, you know, he does his thing. He hypnotically regresses her. She goes into a trance. She starts channeling the night, and Roddenberry is there. And it's, like, an hour or two hours of him asking questions about. And that becomes the plot of Star Trek? Well, I wouldn't say the plot, because Star Trek had started. I think people think of Deep Space Nine, which that came out post these sessions. And that, you know, of course, Nine, and then there's a character in Deep Space Nine who's called Vinod, just like the early Nine channeler. So there's no question, like, that that's connected. And they actually wrote I Have It, and I don't know what will ever come of it. It's a long story. But Gene Roddenberry wrote a script called The Nine. And it's all about his. He changed the names and locations, and the whole premise is his experience of working with Puharch and Phyllis channeling The Nine. And we have an original copy of it, and it's, like, amazing. And from what we understand, like, Roddenberry at the time was going through a lot with, like, I guess he was, like, drinking a lot. And I don't know all the specifics, but it just, like, you know, as stuff in the movie industry does, it fell apart or whatever, and it never happened. But he was moved enough to write a whole, you know, 130-page script about his experience, and it's called The Nine. So trippy. Yeah. And you have. So we should make it, maybe. Yeah, there you go. You have it. Hit Greg up if you're interested. I mean, you also, you know, think about the Star Trek you did with, you know, the Galactic Federation. Yeah. That's mentioned in a couple of real-world contexts, too, one of which being you have Haim Eshed, who, you know, has won multiple, the highest, you know, national security awards in Israel, is basically the founder of their space program and their equivalent of Space Force and was. was, I think, head of it for decades. Yeah. And he just writes this autobiography where he talks about the Galactic Federation. Yeah. And so do you think there's something, like, more real going on that in. in that, like, the heads of various nation-state space programs are aware of here? Perhaps. Yeah. Does he mention anything about the Nine, too, or. Who? Eshed? No, I know. I thought maybe he. Okay. Not specifically. Okay. But the other weird. weird connection to Israel, Puharich, and everything was he was close with Itzhak Bentov. Oh, yeah. Who's, you know, a really interesting guy. There's some videos on YouTube of him. He's kind of like the Israeli Puharich. He kind of looks like him, and, you know, they have the same vibe going on. But they were. they were good friends. I don't know the specifics of how they met. Apparently, Bentov was, you know, instrumental in hooking up with. hooking up Puharich with Geller. I don't know the truth to that. But, well, they definitely knew each other because there's photographs of Geller, Puharich, and Bentov in an apartment in Tel Aviv together. But, you know, Bentov is interesting because he worked for Israeli intelligence. I mean, that's a fact. And Puharich was, again, like I said, going to Israel a lot at that time. And he was always tape recording their conversations. Like, him. him and Bentov would sit around, like you and I are right now, and they would record all their conversations, which, you know, is not weird necessarily, but also, you know, why would you do that and then save the cassette tapes decades later? So, you know, there's a lot of clues like that that goes back to that Israeli connection. And Bentov was one of a number of scientists who were being tracked, and, you know, Puharich's house burned in 1978. To this day, no one really knows who did it, but it was a proven, you know, arson job by the fire department. And Bentov, around that time, was also being monitored, Puharich was being monitored. And there's this big, like this circle of kind of his friends and colleagues were all claiming to be monitored, be followed, harassed. And so forth, and there was some story connecting a possible Israeli connection to this 1978 fire. But yeah, that's a big, big question mark. I mean. And Bentov died in a plane crash, I believe. Yeah, that's right, yeah. Sort of super mysteriously. He was friends with a lot of the Stanford Research Institute and early psychic, you know, research pioneers. Yeah. And he claimed to have this kind of theory of everything. He writes a book called "Stocking the Wild Pendulum" where individual consciousness is kind of a pinched node of some larger fabric of consciousness or something. And a fascinating guy. Yeah, they were close. Like I said, there's a couple tapes of them just like literally talking, and they would just record it, and they would talk about all sorts of things, mostly, you know, their shared interest and consciousness and stuff. But, you know, then there's this other theory that Bukharic could have not been a double agent and simply just a spy and going to kind of pick off information or, hey, we're buddies, we're into the same stuff, we should tape record our conversations. Like he was CIA and Bentov was Mossad or something. But all I know is that stuff exists and you can put it together how you want. But, you know, I've told a lot of people, and again, it's not because I sort of fear, for, you know, anything, but we really don't, maybe it's deliberate. Maybe we're not supposed to have found anything, but we don't have any sort of like legitimate document or anything that really nailed. And I think that's what's interesting about the film and the story in general is like, you still question, there's still research to be done into this because we don't have the definitive answer of what's going on. We just have all this, all these strange breadcrumbs over several decades that, that would point to. - Well, I think the most interesting, you know, pieces of media or journalism beget more questions often than answers, especially if you're cutting to, you know, the deeper architectures of reality. And I often think you should be kind of skeptical or distrust, you know, people who are like, they're so sure it's just X or it's just Y, you know? And in this case, it's clearly this kind of murky subject, but that, I mean, that makes it so fascinating, right? It makes you just want to go, go deeper and. - Yeah. I think that the sign too of the whole Geller thing being, like I mentioned earlier, like him being involved, maybe willingly in these kinds of experiments, you know, but he, yeah, he really opened up. I mean, anyone can hear it. I don't know, maybe it's been taken down, but it was this radio interview from 2019. And he was very open about, you know, I was scared. And he always uses the term like Buharj made me believe this. He made, you know, and he does credit Buharj. He says, look, you know, I love the guy. He helped me. He helped me get to the, to America. So it's not like he's, he hates him or he speak, but he's very clear. Like, you know, at that period, like I was, I was concerned about what was going on. He mentions being pretty sure that Buharj had slipped him the mushrooms. So, you know, there's that, I mean, I, I I don't think he's, he's making that up. No. I think it was like all these years later, I think he wanted to come clean or. Sure. About, about like what he really experiences, the vibe that I got from. He's a wild character. He has a very flamboyant online personality. He'll often make these videos directed at world leaders. So like Trump, don't push that button or Putin stand down or whatever, you know, I know what's going to happen. And he'll like predict the wild things happening. And, um, well, he was doing that in the seventies. He was like, like again, these, this, this idea that you could use this directed thought to, to change somebody's, uh, uh, opinion or change somebody's, uh, direction or, and then he, he talks a lot about doing that back then. I have a friend who worked at the Princeton parapsychology lab. And whenever I try to throw the kitchen sink of skepticism around, like he's just a stage magician and he's, you know, I don't, I don't know how legit he is. He often said, you know, and I think they're, they even have like, uh, uh, some papers where they studied him at Princeton. And I think it's often again, like these people have something that's a little anomalous going on and they play it up, you know? Yeah. I, that's really actually my, again, with everything I said prior to him potentially being the sort of subject, but no, I, I actually firmly believe that he was one of probably, you know, a lot of people out there, yeah, who have something. And again, it's just like, can you turn it on every time? Can you, can you perform at every instant someone asks you? I mean, no, I'm not a slight, I mean, I don't, I don't know, but I would assume like you can't do it a hundred percent of the time. Maybe you can do it 60% of the time. Yeah. But I think that about him because I've heard enough stories, um, through all these people. I've talked to and stuff who were like, yeah, he, he had something, you know, I think he liked the idea of the showmanship and, but yeah, he definitely had something going on. Speaking of people with gifted, you know, psychic abilities, uh, who are the space kids? The space kids are, uh, well, there's a lot of them and we only were able to track down and interview, um, one, two, three, five of them. But basically when Geller was kind of blowing up, this was like mid seventies, early mid seventies, uh, apparently the story goes that these kids all over the world, um, specifically in the United States and the UK and in, and in China, which are just the, the, the stories that we were able to kind of look into, but these kids would see, um, Geller on TV and all of a sudden, like that. That would, uh, cause them to just spontaneously like do something psychic. Like they would, they would pick up a spoon, it would bend or they would, you know, go into the room and the, the, the drawers would, you know, poltergeist stuff. Right. And there's a ton of newspaper articles at this time, which again, like, okay, it could have all been a hoax, whatever, but you know, it's like parents calling in, uh, the TV station, you know? Pujaric claims like saying, what the hell is going on here? You know, my kid just did this. My kid just bent a spoon. My kid just, you know, touched the, the, the refrigerator and it short circuited, you know, all sorts of stuff. And apparently it was because they saw him on TV and, and something happened, something clicked and they, their psychic abilities just kind of like came out in that moment. It's like a contagion of the psychic powers. Yeah. So that's apparently what was happening. And so Pujaric, of course, you know, learns this and he's very intrigued. So he starts to, you know, visit some of these cases of kids who are doing this. And, um, eventually I guess is so, uh, eventually he's so convinced that, that this is real and that these kids actually have this sort of like sudden emergence of ability that he, um, brings them. Well, again, a lot of people have this idea. There's a lot online about how he like collected, uh, all these kids, almost like an X-Men kind of thing, which is partially true, but mostly like he would lecture and, and, and, you know, all over the country and Canada and places and, and people, and, and we say kids, we're talking like teen, you know, early, apparently there were like some very young, you know, five, four or five, six year old kids, but the ones that we're dealing with in the film are all, you know, in their early twenties, maybe. 18 youngest, but they would see him at a, at a lecture and they would, they would approach him and say, Hey, you know, we got to talk. Like I have, I have these abilities and, and you are obviously the guy who knows about this and, and I need your help basically. Like they would kind of go to him. So at that point he thought, okay, there's enough, there's enough stories and enough of these kids coming to me that like, I should start a research program. And so that's when he sort of collects like a large group of, of kids. I think it was like, again, online, there's all sorts of stories, but it was really only like maybe like a dozen kids, I think, give or take, but he, he kind of invites them to, to Austin and where he's, you know, living and, and starts this sort of camp where basically they are just doing psychic, uh, uh, research on these kids. And I think again, not unlike the earlier Vinod round table stuff, like a lot of conspiracy stuff pops up at this moment too, because of the general nature of kids showing up at the house of a, you know, known intelligence, uh, connected, uh, scientists, et cetera, and so forth. But, um, basically he collected them and, um, just started this camp where they did, you know, kind of went through the different abilities, tested them. And that all led to getting back to the nine, because a lot of these kids claim they had some sort of encounter or, or, you know, UFO experience. And so Buhart said, okay, kind of like group them. Okay. All the, all the kids who've had an experience here, you know, not, and so all the kids that had an experience, he would hypnotize them and allegedly the nine would come through. And even through these kids who, most of which never knew about, about the nine and, and most of which were kids who like, you, you hear a lot with these experiencers who like, they didn't want to talk about it. You know, they didn't want, you know, fame or they, they were just like, I'm actually scared and I want to know what's going on with myself. You know, they weren't trying to like, you know, do anything more than like, can you help me figure out what's going on? After, after you've looked at this for 10 plus years, do you think that the nine coming through these different experiencers, abductees, people who've seen UFOs represent something real that's sort of, you know, non-human or extraterrestrial coming through these people? Or do you think that these were sort of synthetically implanted or kind of manipulated by Puharich? Uh, I think. I think it's, I don't want to say synthetically created. I think what was going on at this time, and this is, um, we're talking 74 when this started 73, 74 and keep in mind, this is right around the time the SRI remote viewing stuff starts and keep in mind how put off tells us that he went to Puharich's house in Ossining, heard all about it. And then he came back and said, you know, we're talking about the nine and that Puharich was apparently communicating with this thing called the nine wild and then didn't really say much because I'll put off never talked about this. No, I mean, in the film he does, I got to ask him, but, um, he basically just tells a story about, well, quite frankly, he was quite closed off when it came to the subject of all this Puharich. Um, so I don't know. I wasn't there at the interview. Someone else did it. I mean, he, it was great. He did it. But he basically, it was like Puharich. Puharich was more connected than anyone, anyone ever knew. And really, he sort of alludes to that, but he does say, yeah, we, we went up to his house. There's footage of him and, and Targ at Ossining sitting on the front steps. So my theory is that, and people have talked about this and it's out there, but I think that there was this sort of, and, and we know for a fact that Puharich was part of the SRI program. A lot of people put off himself, say, no, he wasn't, he just simply brought Geller and that was it. He disappeared. Not true. There's a, a pay stub in Puharich's archives that is a, uh, is from SRI to lab nine, Puharich's lab from 73. Whoa. We brought it up to put off. He said, oh, I don't, who knows? It could have just, it's whatever. It's nothing basically. But to me that, that proves he was connected. Cause I think the story most people read is just like, he brought Geller, dropped him off there and was just like, you know? Yeah. Have fun basically. But I think that Puharich's house, which was now called lab nine, which again, like intellectual and a couple others he had which are no use getting into but he just had these sort of like front companies which i just think it's obvious you know so at this time he had lab 9 and i think that lab 9 was doing sri research you know on on children because essentially a lot of the tapes are remote viewing there's no other way to look at it it's okay what's going on in this location uh what time is this such and such general going to be at this place uh when should we go here and it was actually speaking of adam curry i think it was actually adam who brought up this idea that you know a lot of people who go into a trance or hypnosis you know there's there's a protocol right it's either like a pendulum or whatever it is there's a countdown and i think the nine and and something somehow like this we're going to connect with the nine thing was like a way that these it was an in if that makes sense for some of these kids to to sort of want to participate because again it goes back to if you really want to test like a kid's a real you know 20 year old person is a 20 year old a better psychic than an 80 year old you know eventually you're going to have to find a 20 year old and then do an experiment with them and i think what was happening was like if you go to a 20 year old and say hey you know especially at the time with erie geller being famous you know whatever star wars this and that and you say hey you know do you want to be a part of an experiment where you can do this and can communicate with these you know these beings and you know i can put you in it's safe and i can put you in this this hypnotic state and you'll communicate with them like obviously you would say oh that's okay that's that's interesting that's cool you're not going to say hey do you want to come be a part of a uh a covert you know mind control experiment you're not going to approach it that way so that's my theory is that that was sort of his way and one of the space kids name i i don't i won't mention um she she basically admitted that where she said something to the effect a long time ago of like the nine was basically just like this sandbox for us to or some analogy like that where the nine is basically just like this sandbox for us to to play in or something and i and again it was off it wasn't in the interview it was like one of this many phone calls we had and i always stuck with me so i think that at that time again you've got the same years remote viewing experiments are starting at sri you've got the connection to sri via some sort of pay stub going directly to lab nine and you've got all these young kids who on the tapes are doing remote viewing so but the question i want to push you on this is like remote viewing is used for the u.s from 72 to 95 and probably now yeah to like actually add to our intelligence abilities about real things drop russian nuclear bases find hostages you know whatever do you think that this council of nine were real you know extraterrestrial or non-human beings communicating through these space kids or do you think the nine was being implanted and they were testing their ability to sort of manipulate thoughts and that was through the nine or whatever and they had some some you know i mean clearly they did have some abilities to do that the the the evidence would point to the latter i mean that's that's the best way i can answer that god that's crazy that's uh and that would go back it's very deflating i'm sure for a lot of the ufo well it is and again like i don't want to come across as this like negative skeptic person because i'm not but again it goes back to like if you're trying to be serious and piece together the life of this guy that spans decades like and and that's what you're hearing uh you know that's what you that's what you have but what what is if you are saying some of the protocol to get people into this state involves uh saying hey you're you're contacting the nine and whatever it's some protocol and it sounds like a hypnotic technique yeah but then some seem super open-ended and they just seem to connect with the nine how do you sort of make sense of that well i don't know and that goes back to the kind of you know i think uh jeffrey mishlove brings this up of this sort of uh trickster element the kind of paranormal phenomena where like sometimes they're they're tricking you and sometimes it's real sometimes it isn't i think there was you know with buharish like again it's always that question of like where did he stand with like is this real research that he passionately believes in and he's trying to come to some sort of you know reality of of the et phenomena or was it just all mk ultra you know and again i don't think it was all mk ultra mind control stuff but there's some gray area there that is so hard to pin down because again in some of these um sessions and and this is strange is is that on some of the sessions you know he'll be like okay here we are with this space kid and in there and their mom is and she's you know this is like the tape recording we're hearing and and on those sessions it's like you know typical okay the nine um the you know the world is beautiful we need to save humanity etc etc then there's other tapes that are like you know what time is the best to to remote view the kremlin so we can get into that you know so yeah so i think it's there was a way of like okay i need to kind of you know give an example to to maybe other people around to say hey look this is what we're doing okay see you sat in on a session so now you know what it's like and then when those people aren't around it kind of gets to the the serious stuff is again what it this is what i'm you're hearing what i'm hearing it's all based off that it's not like really my personal um you know hardcore beliefs it's just like oh okay this is what i'm hearing yeah i think anyone would kind of conclude that yeah but again i think buharich like and and this is a big part of the film and a big part of my philosophy about him and his story is like i think he believed i know he believed in in a lot of paranormal stuff but i think he got sort of under the thumb of the uh you know intelligence world early on and i just don't think that he could kind of get away from that and i think you know you often hear it's like the mafia like you don't just leave and when you're when you're that involved as he was you don't just say hey i'm i'm i'm good you know and i so i think that there was a lot of pressure on him to do some of this negative stuff that he may have otherwise not wanted to do and i think that's like a big part of the film and what i wanted to kind of get across with it is there's so much negative conspiracy stuff about him out there i mean there's tons of it i've ever read the stargate conspiracy the book it's really good it's um it came out in the 90s and it was the first book that really talked about a lot like this this book had the story that i told you about the guy in florida who woke up with the the tooth implant and then this is the first book that really exposed basically saying everything he ever did was intelligence involved you you know he's he's an awful person he's an evil genius but uh you know it's not true and i think that i hope to get that across in the film and i think we do because like a big part of that that research i don't think he wanted to do i think he he in a way was forced to do it you know yeah and whatever this kind of amorphous blob that is the ufo legacy program that is always proverbially discussed but you know usually in a very kind of high level fuzzy ways i think that's probably the case with a lot of these people is that they were kind of sucked up into in certain cases they probably came upon really exciting scientific truths that were converging on things that you know some you know behind the the the iron curtain science you know uh group in the u.s you know uh during kind of cold war secrecy era already knew and uh and and they would recruit these people and then they would probably be forced to you know work on things in contexts that they weren't particularly happy about and didn't feel idealistic about and i'm sure that that's the case with him because i again like i don't want to um come come across as someone who's trying to like put him out there because i'm not i mean like i got to know his family really well i'm like very close with them yeah and and they were i showed them the sort of final product which really gets into this stuff and they were like you did a good job because you didn't shy away from from that and i think you know you illustrated it well but you know they were even like wow there's so much in here we had no idea about like we literally had no idea you you're telling us stuff that we never even heard before yeah so that just goes to show his own family was in the dark about a lot of it but you know the nine again like i just keep thinking i think about it a lot and again like the answer just is i don't know but what i've heard and what i've had access to that came directly from his personal records would indicate that it was it was a made-up a made-up thing fascinating well that i mean that in and of itself seems a little messed up as does yeah you know slipping somebody mushrooms or you know telling them they've been abducted by aliens and taken aboard a ship when they haven't or quote-unquote teleporting them and throwing them into the sea and you know you know throwing them through a window and you know like these things aren't cool you know uh and again like i think if you watch if anyone watches footage of buharsh alexa he's the most jovial funny night you know like he's not this like monster person and that's why i quite frankly think makes him like interesting and an interesting subject for a film because like he's complicated and he he's he's again i think being sucked into these things that he would otherwise not want to do and he and not to ruin the end of the film but he basically like admits that that he basically admits like that is what was going on with him yeah well he warns future researchers basically like don't do what i did essentially is what he he his message is if you look at the zimbardo prison experiments at stanford or whatever where you know these prison guards start to get really self-important or stanley milgram's shock experiments you know it's a and then you combine that with the you know the the power of the cia at the time i'm sure you could get coerced into doing all sorts of things and does that fully exonerate you like probably not but uh it's uh yeah i mean i think the the the best version which i think your documentary really gives is the nuanced one which shows how somebody could get incrementally walked into a position like that and there's just no question the level of um you know how how deeply connected he was to intelligence i mean there's there's a paper trail of it so there's just there's no way to kind of beat around that bush i think again i've just i've read so much online and there's a lot of speculation but at the end of the day like those people don't haven't seen the materials that you know we had so so interesting were there any other experiments they were obviously channeling they were using these sort of faraday chambers they had this machine that produced tones and they were using these sort of faraday chambers and they were using these sort of any other experiments that they were doing with the space kids specifically well here's what's interesting is that um and you see in the film like getting back to this idea of the nine being this kind of end point just to like get things get things done uh in the 70s we're talking 74 through 76 you know middle east war right going on and puharich and um specificly phyllis schlemer he was still working with her then but and and and all the space kids you know they weren't specifically going on these trips but they would literally have a session right with the nine and they would do group sessions where it would be like you know two people puharich and two other people him and three other people him and six other people and that would apparently like bring the message through more strongly and so forth but um in that time they're getting messages from the nine saying you know you need to go to egypt you need to go to you know any you know middle east area you need to go to russia you know and all these places which would otherwise be very difficult for for somebody to just go to during that period in fact one of the guys working with puharich at that time john whitmore he was a british guy who got really involved like he even says in an interview like you you normally could not even get into these countries at this time yet puharich with his psychic where we're going constantly because the nine said you have to go here you have to go there and so he kind of hints at like well what was that really the nine or once again was puharich involved in something else that he had to be in these areas at this time you know under the auspices that this was a psychic you know this was the nine telling them to go there phyllis schlemer completely questions everything and you know way later in her life really she did an interview she said he used that the td 100 machine on me all the time i never knew what it did i never questioned what it did and so you just have to ask like how is it that puharich is able to go to these places during that time get into very specific locations often involving very high ranking government people and it's all just oh hey the nine told us to come here so we're here and um and so a lot of people speculate you know i'm i've heard stories of you know christian missionaries who were actually spies and you know something like that going on again it's uh interesting to go down that road to think about and nothing we have like concretely proves that but i just think that there's a lot of like the more you listen to those tapes at that time and the more you just kind of put things together like it does seem like what if that was that was the cover and oh this guy is so crazy he actually thinks a psychic is telling him oh just let him go what a what a kook and meanwhile he's you know doing whatever he needs to do there yeah it's using the stigma of the science kind of in your favor as a cover for you know something more vital that clearly was was actually working and functional and he actually on these tapes gives this goes back to like the remote viewing stuff of like some of the questions that they're asking are like you know what are what is the code name that you know the the the you know russian guerrilla soldiers are using so we then know what to pick up on when we hear this code so then that begs the question you know why would an asking those types of questions if that's what you're supposed to be doing talking to the nine but to go back to the the the constant contrast is like he really was a genuine believer because he would often go um to the great pyramid in the in the same time and do like all sorts of experiments there really and he just loved going there like he was obsessed with the pyramid he's so you know that's not and there are nine there are specifically nine egyptian gods so that was something he was like obsessive about he would he we have tape recordings of him meditating in the king's chamber what's in 76 and he did experiments with um uh one of the space kids in the pyramid and they brought through this information apparently they're channeling this egyptian god and some pretty weird information lined up during that session so then that goes back to like it's almost like it's like okay i gotta i i have to you know do my job for the cia and on my off time i i can go in the pyramid and and do do some cool stuff i'm interested in that's just kind of what it seems because like again there's no mind manipulation dark stuff going on there it's it's it's very clearly him like i'm going to meditate in the king's chamber like well what does that have to do with you know mk ultra so i just think like and again this goes to like his death in the mystery book around that where i think like there was a situation too where he may have been you know on payroll for you know xyz intelligence agencies and going to do these things but kind of using that time to do other things he wanted and maybe that was he he shouldn't have done that and you know you think they took him out as a result maybe it's that yeah i think a part of it is that he he because again he's going to egypt right because the nine are saying you have to go here you have to go to this location to meditate this and that but i think he's going okay well i'm already in egypt and there's the great pyramid and i've been wanting to go in there anyways so i'm already here i'm gonna go you know but he's there maybe on on a mission and hey you know don't screw around kind of thing i think there was a lot of that going on and um his death is completely mysterious what what happened you can see the stairway right for this window where my father allegedly fell down and they found him right at the bottom of the stairs we don't really know um what killed him well so there's a couple of things he he was sick at the time um but not i believe not enough that would have caused this to happen but basically it was 95 and around this time he was very vocal about his life like he was doing these sort of lecture tours that sort of parapsychology conferences and stuff and he was being very open about his past and and it was one of these lectures at that time where he said you know look i'll admit it um i worked for this part of the cia my boss was the guy who was directly involved with all the hypnosis mind manipulation who was his boss uh he doesn't name his boss but i wait you know what he might actually let me think he does i have to think about it did you figure out yeah yeah i know it trust me it's just in my crazy head puharic head but but i'll remember it but um basically and so he says yeah that's what i did i was i was a i was a consultant at the time and so he opens up about a lot of that stuff he he literally says uh i can produce in your mind the image of of um an alien experience um his assistant what at the time was a woman who was on this this tape that dick russell recorded i told you about when puharic was in the hospital there's a part of the tape where dick russell goes outside i think they're having a smoke or something and he's and he's just kind of like hey look you know give it to me straight like what's going on with this and she she opens up to you and she says yeah he told me about things he's done that he he he's worried for his life about saying she says he um using flashing lights using all tone all of that stuff was able to create the the the ufo experience that that stuff was all created she says so what she was opening up about that on this tape and so so he would like stage ufo is showing up as well and she says yeah i'm well i think what she's i think what she was getting at is what we were talking about with this this controller's um idea is that yeah like kind of i guess more implanting the the the idea that you've had an encounter or you know you've been abducted or so like he was involved basically making the point he was involved in that kind of stuff that kind of research um and again you know you're gonna ask like why why you know like why is he like why is he like why is he like why was it always like the ufo thing but um but all that was going on like right before he died you know that tape was recorded less than a year before he died but um he he was found uh at the bottom of the stairs he fell and he he passed away and at the time he had all these um he was still and again this goes back to like what did he really believe he was still living with this group of like women who were like psychics apparently and he they lived with him and he was still like you know doing stuff with them or whatever but but conveniently that day they no one else was there at the house uh when they were usually always at the house and puharich has this like weird legal pad that he wrote like very soon before this this incident occurred where he he fell on the stairs where he's basically like outlining why he thinks he's being monitored he names people that he believes have come into his life who are who are there to basically harm him and take him out he claimed again this is either like the work of someone completely paranoid or somebody who's just totally telling the truth well it's right before he fell down the stairs mysteriously he claimed that they this this and again it makes sense because these psychic people would kind of like show up even to this day and be like hey you know you should study me and this kind of thing so he and he was a nice guy again so he would want he would let people in and he would welcome them and so he claimed that there was a people like that who were actually you know basically out to get him and that they installed this elf uh emitter in his television set so when he would turn on the tv he would get hit by this and you know he would get hit by this and he was a physician he was a medical doctor so he would know what was going on with his own body and he writes in this legal pad like you know i am this is happening to me i can tell he would test himself every day well he also developed a lot of these techniques right yeah he's they're using yeah what he developed on him on him yeah i mean if again if this were to be believed which i quite frankly do believe what he says in this but he basically is this legal pad and it's all these events kind of leading up to why he believes they're they're out to get him basically right but um yeah coincidentally the day he's found you know there's no one at the house and um right before not right before that but a few years before before um his death he had been uh approached by the cia to head up a elf research department basically again he writes this i've i've found some evidence to to prove that this this probably happened but there was apparently a department being set up just to to study elf um you know weapons and so forth again a lot of that was going on in the late 70s and he he said no and apparently some argument ensued and he said you know get out of here and because they came to his house he's kind of recounting this in his notes and um the guy that he said came on behalf of the cia to talk to him as a guy we know was involved in the cia who's that this guy named bob beck who's in the who's in the film um and he was another puharich type where where he got roped into a lot of things i think he he wasn't necessarily wanting to to do but um so that happened where he he refused that and said you know no you know get the hell out of here etc so all of that stuff was leading up to 95 and he was found dead coincidentally you know the stargate program ends in 95 i was gonna i literally made that connection in my mind yeah and coincidentally um this guy grinberg jacobo grinberg yes who uh there's a great film shout out to um ida my friend he made this great film about him um in 95 uh less than a year after puharich dies he this guy disappears grinberg when if you see the film um the story basically is he was involved in very similar research basically was able to prove a lot of this psychic stuff is real and to this day they don't know what happened to him he that's still a missing person did he ever meet puharich yeah they met when puharich was in exile in mexico after his house was was burned uh they were they met in mexico in in less than a month after puharich was uh found dead grinberg disappeared so again what do you say it's all coincidence and you move on or you say there's something so bizarre yeah grinberg the the whole thing about him is like he realized we live in a matrix and then he left the matrix or something like but what's interesting about him is like again it's it's it's literally still like an open case like they've never figured it out yeah and of course a lot of people say oh you know he he got sort of kidnapped by whatever government agency and they're using him and you know what's crazy is uh on some random message board uh this was like years ago i saw a post that was somebody like i know for a fact that puharich never died and he was he was taken in by the government and he's still alive and someone i know and the weirdest thing is a i was skeptical of that but i i was like years later i remember reading that and i and i spent hours and days trying to find this mess but i could not find it for the life of me i tried everything i could possibly do and i couldn't i couldn't find it um so that was weird that's super yeah so it just got erased or something i get and but that was the that's like the real theory of grinberg like again the doc is really good but there's like actually you know legitimate proof that like he he was sort of taken by by the government so that's what your friend who made the movie thinks that he was actually taken and well that's one of the theories that basically everyone involved in the story like agrees with because everything just points to like that so that happening so so all that was 95 january 95 was puharich's death february 95 grimberg goes missing stargate officially ends in 95 government puts out newspaper articles all over the news you know stargate there's nothing to it it was all bunk um so and keep in mind puharich at that time was lecturing about all of that and being honest being open about all the experiments he did with you know stargate so i think um annie jacobson alludes to it like i just think it was this classic you know he knows too much and he can't be he can't be out there talking and he he's experienced too much he knows too much and uh it's not good so i could see them Seeing him as a liability late in life, you know, maybe he feels remorse about some of the things that he did and he's speaking openly and, you know, they're probably just trying to accelerate the research in the, in the black. Um, what, what are some of the wilder testimonies of the space kids that you spoke to? So basically, but the space kids, like, yeah, there, there were a lot. Um, and again, the reason the film took so long, which, you know, to give myself credit for, because a lot of people are like, I can't believe it took you so long and this and that, but a lot of it was like just getting people to talk because, you know, you could imagine these people like don't want to. And again, this is what, you know, you hear a lot about this with the UFO abduction stuff. Like these, these people like weren't looking to be in the spotlight. In fact, they didn't want to be, it took about two years for me to basically earn the trust of these space kids who I now consider like good, good friends, but that's what took so long. And I always thought like, in order to make a really cool film, like you got to get these space kids, it's like stranger things in real life, you know, like that's what would make this thing work. And so I was just like convinced we got to get these, these people and we got, we got five of them. But again, there was like a lot more. Or a few of them were like, you know, never reach out to me again. I want nothing to do with this. So what did they say? I mean, that's why a five is amazing. What, what did they say? Well, so basically like, yeah, what I did was I, I somehow was able to track them down just basically through like in Puharich's archives and things there. And again, on the tapes, like he would say a name or he would write their name. Well, actually, in fact, in one of his journals, he like wrote all the names of the kids at the time. So it's pretty easy to like. Google people, but, um, yeah, a lot of the, the ones we got were, were again, after kind of talking to them and saying, Hey, I'm, I'm, you know, trying to do like a level headed, you know, portrayal of Puharich. I'm not some crazy conspiracy person. Like after all that, um, yeah, they were really open, but, um, you know, they basically talked a lot about like what it was like being at his house. Yeah. Yeah. At that time, which again was kind of cultish. I mean, if you want to look at it that way, in the sense that like, other than the space, cause there's just all sorts of, uh, Sarfati, Jack Sarfati being one of them, like him and his kind of group of physicists, people would go up there. It was this kind of, yeah, like a hub of just any, all these people interested in this stuff would just go there and like hang out. For people that don't know, Sarfati is a physicist who is pretty well respected. And it's studied under, you know, very impressive people who, you know, were Manhattan project, you know, pioneers. And he has a model of, of time travel and warp drive physics. Yeah. And he, he lives in the Bay area and he's very outspoken, loves to call people a schmuck. He's written about, um, in the hippies saved physics, uh, by, by David Kaiser, this MIT guy. Yeah. And, um, so I didn't know he had any interaction with, uh, uh, Puharich. That's amazing. Yeah. He went to his house. Because he also, I believe Sarfati, the way he got involved in this exotic physics that he ended up studying was he claims that as a teenager, he was in some gifted and talented education program. And he was, he gets a call from the future saying, you're going to meet the others. You're going to be work on like building UFOs, essentially, which he believes his work touches on building UFOs. Yeah. And this is a guy who could keep up with, you know, any top theoretical physicist in the world. Like he's an, he's a real physicist. He studied under Hans Bett, uh, uh, you know, at Cornell and stuff. Yeah. And, um, he, uh, says he gets a call from the future and then, and then, you know, they tell him when he's going to meet the others. And then he ends up meeting Hal Puthoff like later or whatever. And it's this weird synchronicity, you know, it's so strange. So he's interacting with Andre Puharich. Yeah. Well, you know, it's a crazy connection I just thought of. Hmm. Um. In that story, so the Sarfati story, uh, quickly is, yeah, he, he got this call from this metallic voice, which is what some of the, um, what Geller claims this as well, actually, but, uh. Really? Yeah. So he gets this call from metallic voice. That was some sort of, you know, alien intelligence. But, um, I don't know if you remember his part of the story where his, I think it was his dad or his uncle or something was, was involved in the army or army intelligence. Yeah. And one of the people that he knew through a family member that was connected was this guy, Wilson green. He brings up this guy, Wilson green, and that, uh, guy, Wilson green was working with Puharich in the fifties, um, at the round table doing everything they were doing there. Whoa. Yeah. So do you, did you ever ask him point blank, Hey Jack, like was any of your stuff, do you think it was seeded by these sort of. You know, it could have been troll people or, I mean, I think like he's open about that being a possibility as far as, yeah. But I just remember him bringing up that name and, and, and, and Puharich his journals, like he has one where he's kind of listing all these people. That's where, and I first told you about the Townsend Brown connection. This is insane. Yeah. This is the craziest thing to tell everybody about this. Well, in one of his journals, it was just, uh, him recounting, like he would often go to DC for like meetings. Puharich. Puharich would, and this is early fifties again, which weird that the same year you're channeling the nine, you know, in your lab, you're going to DC to meet with all these people. But he would just like keep very meticulous journals about what he did, where he went, who he met. And he would just like, Hey, I met this person for lunch, met that person. And so, yeah, Wilson Green comes to mind because he had something to do with, um, I think it was the army psychological warfare department. And that's the same. Guy Sarfati references, but in these journals, he mentions, um, meeting Townsend Brown and spending the day with him. And it's very brief, unfortunate, actually, maybe we could do this together. There's part of the page that's like, so worn, you can't really like read what it says, but it's, it's kind of a, you know, a brief, uh, mention that he, he met with, with Brown and spent the afternoon. He says something like spent the afternoon with him to disgust a lot or. Something like this. I know some kid who like helped, I think it's called the Vesuvius project and he helped decode this ancient papyri. And so if he could do that, hopefully he could get us this, uh, you know, this transcript. That's crazy. So he met him when, and this was, again, I'm, I'm positive it was 53. Was that that journal? So, yeah, he was going there. Um, so yeah, that's how I found it. And it brings up all these questions of like, were people like Werner Von Braun. And Brown's ideas somehow seeded by like MK ultra adjacent things. Like probably not. Cause you have like, you know, Werner Von Braun goes way back to like, you know, early journal. He's clearly like a, you know, a rocketry genius. Like, you know, as a young kid, um, was all, was way into this, like, you know, like in his, in his teenage years. Um, or was like, you know, if you think about like, what would be one of the main use cases of MK ultra, it would be like keeping secret science sort of on. Lock, maybe creating some sort of cult dynamics around it. Wiping people's memories when they work on really sensitive shit, like who knows? And Townsend Brown to me, obviously I'm very high conviction in his stuff. The audience will give me shit. Cause I talk about him all the time, but I think he's like the Godfather of American kind of, you know, in the black dark science, like whole tech trees that come from anti-gravity or extended electrodynamics or fifth dimensional physics, I think kind of arrives from yeah. Townsend. Brown. And so I wonder, I wonder what that meeting was like the time then was weird overall. I think what people don't realize about the fifties is like, there's a letter. Between, I think it's Claude Shannon who invented information theory was at Princeton information theory is the basis of all modern computation and William Shockley who invented the modern semiconductor, you know, bell labs essentially. And, um, it was a. And he goes, you know, my, my friend, you have to meet my friend. He's really interesting, you know, he's into all this, you know, interesting science stuff or whatever. And it turns out he's talking about Elrond Hubbard. And so the point is, is like, it's this weird time where the intersection between the types of people who'd be engaging in like bizarre seances, ESP paranormal stuff that wasn't outside the Overton window, like it is today. Yeah. And so, yeah, anyway. How would you speculate on, do you, have you speculated on the connection between towns and Brown and who are nothing more than just, they were probably interested in similar, similar things. And, and, but it's odd because he said it was in DC. So Brown was there for whatever reason. Well, Brown was probably deep intelligence. I mean, there's a story of towns and Brown engaging in a UFO crash retrieval in, um, I think it's in the late fifties. And it's like, I think Hartford, Connecticut and this like green glowing object that seems like it's losing mass gets collected by, uh, a professor there named Robert Brown. Mm-hmm it then ends up at Moody's. Watch at Harvard, which is connected with Blue Book. And Robert Friend and J. Allen Hynek have possession of this, you know, material. And Townsend Brown walks in to Harvard, flashes his credentials and takes the material. And like that, you hear stories like that, Tom, you have telegraphs that I think, or telegrams that his daughter, I think has, I know this, I think through this amazing researcher on Townsend Brown named Jan Lundquist. And I think she says that there's a telegram between William Stevenson, who's the inspiration for James Bond, Ian Fleming, Churchill's super spy, who was like, you know, coordinating with Wild Bill Donovan, the OSS. He was like as high up as it gets when it comes to intelligence. And there's a telegram from him to Josephine, who's Townsend Brown's wife, because Townsend Brown had flown behind enemy territory parachuted into, you know, Nazi Germany in 45 to interrogate some scientists because he was an expert in all this stuff. And it's, this telegram says, you know, from William Stevenson, your husband is okay. You know, he's, he's been injured, but he's okay. And he's on his way back to the U.S. or whatever. So I can give you like 50 other stories like that. Like Curtis LeMay, I mean, his daughter said, I think on the phone with me, Linda Brown says, Curtis LeMay chases Townsend Brown down the stairs because he's so interested in him. His inventions and stuff. And so this guy was like as deep as it gets when it came to the American intelligence and military elite. Um, so it would make sense if Pooherich was as well on the kind of the psychic, you know, you know, vector. And maybe if all of this stuff is being coordinated at a higher level than we understand, and there's some spook, spooky science stuff and the anti-gravity connects with the psychic stuff, you know, nuts and bolts, like they all kind of materials, they all kind of connect at the, at the top. Those two guys, they're all kind of very central nodes. Yeah. And I think there's a lot of similarities with what you said, uh, you know, this idea of like flashing credentials and walking in play. I mean, there's, again, I could give you 50 examples of Pooherich doing that kind of thing that I've heard. And so that, yeah. And I think like the journals that mentioned Brown and these others, like, I don't think these were sort of meant to be seen, you know, these were like buried in his, in his record. In fact, like in the film, you'll see like his, his, his assistant at one point kind of mentions this idea that like, not, not, um, not long before he passed away, like he had made mention, like these papers I have in my house need someone needs to take them. I don't trust giving them my children for their safety. And so I think this is stuff that was not supposed to be, um, read, you know, or seen. It's amazing. There's a lot of other names. I researched them all. He met with Dalton. I don't, I guess I didn't mention that wild. He there's, he's literally, again, in the journal met, he's like, you know, says something like, uh, you know, wait, it was in the waiting room for an hour and finally got in and we had, we talked and so obviously you're up to something serious doing that. You're meeting with the third director of the CIA who, yeah, it's a while. I mean, if, yeah, if anybody was kind of running the government behind the government, it was Dallas. So yeah. D um, yeah. Some of the wilder testimonies. Yeah. The space kids. Space kids. Yeah. So yeah, they, so they just basically recounted a lot of like, um, what they experienced a lot of the channeling sessions. So a wilder story is, um, uh, this one of the space kids, his name's Jaime. He's, um, from Mexico city. Great guy. And again, he was somebody who would never have wanted to appear in a documentary, you know, like his life. his life was totally fine. You know, he didn't need to talk about this, but he did because event, eventually he told me like, if you're willing to like tell the real story, like I'll talk because he knows like I did, there's just so much like BS stuff out there about Poo harsh and everything. But, um, he told me a story about he, um, he was meditate at one time. He was doing an experiment with Buhari, his assistant, this woman who's in the film. Um, they were doing an experiment. They were meditating, uh, together and she, they were sitting in a room together, both meditating. And he says that at one point she got up and she went over to him and she touched his forehead with her finger. Yeah. And when she died, when she did that, this big, uh, blue ball, I guess this like ball of energy as he describes it appeared next thing he knew he came to, she was all the way across the room against the wall and he was back up against the wall and he doesn't remember what happened. And the last thing he remembers is that she touched his forehead, some sort of burst of blue light. She flew across the room. And he told me that, and, and, you know, and he said, look, you know, you can talk to the assistant, like she'll, she'll corroborate this. And, and I did, and she did, and she did. And his, his theory was just like, we, some connection, you know, must've been, been occurring. And, and what, what, what do you do with that? Because something I learned, I learned, I learned from him, I learned which was very bizarre because this was another thing that Bucharach didn't kind of open up, uh, about until way later in his life is he, he says, and again, this is not me or speculation or making something up. Like he says in his own words, he invented this, uh, prosthetic finger that would have a, uh, a chip with a certain ELF frequency that would emit from it. So when you touch somebody's forehead, you're not going to be able to see it. You're not going to be able to see it. And, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, it would be the exact frequency that would like knock them into the hypnotic state they needed to be in, in order to do channeling. And so he could basically just like, I could go like this to you and you would fall into the thing. He, he says that one of the, one of the kids says, yeah, I, I, I remember that. So was this instance with Jaime and the finger or something to do with that? What was it not? I don't know, but that's one of his stories. That was really bizarre. Any UFO related stories? Um, yeah, there was a lot of, um, there were a couple like the classic, you know, right now there's a UFO that's sort of hovering over this session and then some claim to have witnessed that. Um, there was a few stories like that. So that would be in the, like his protocol, like he'd be saying that, or like they'd be like, like automatically channeling that would be like, uh, apparently the nine saying that saying this through them. Yeah. But, um, then there was a lot of, um, but like, if we're to get super concrete about this, like, is that him beaming the message right now, there is a UFO, you know, above our head or is it like creating some weird protocol and then like what happens to them happens to them and we have no idea where that content is coming from. Um, I don't know. Yeah. Yeah. It's strange because a lot of these sessions are very long. Like some of them are literally like two hours long, you know? And it's, it's just, I hate to say like, it's kind of like, you just need to hear it to kind of like to understand because it's, it's just, it really is mind boggling because I constantly I'm like, this is, this is, uh, an experiment. This has been until like, Oh no, this is like, literally he's making contact with an extraterrestrial. Say you were to suspend disbelief entirely and just take the contents of the nine at face value. How would you characterize these nine beings and what they want for humanity? Well, it's like I said before, um, they, they, they speak a lot about this idea that we have the ability of destroying ourselves, you know, and that if there's a way they can prevent that, then they, they want to, and they talk a lot about nuclear bases and this kind of thing that, you know, we hear a lot about now. Uh, they kind of say like, we're kind of behind a lot of the sightings that, that are occurring on nuclear bases. Um, but then now I'm, like, you're making me think this shit's real. The re the reason I'd love to be cynical about it, but like the nuclear stuff has been going on since the 40s. There's this guy, Bud Clem, uh, there's this UFO and nukes documentary. It's all based on Robert Hastings. Great work in his book. It's really good. And I made kind of a, you know, another little thing with Robert Hastings on my channel, but you have this guy, Bud Clem, as early as 1945 in Hanford, where he's talking about these fireballs in the sky. And they did this project twinkle, which was deleted from the air force. Archives, uh, Lincoln LaPaz, this meteorite expert, uh, at university of New Mexico is talking about green fireballs that seem intelligently propulsed. flashing that like aren't explained by anything prosaic and just like the nuclear connection is so ubiquitous and then you're telling me the atomic energy commission gave him money they gave him like over a million dollars yeah so like if i were them i'd be like try to tap into what the hell is you know controlling yeah dude this is a crazy rabbit hole yeah obviously uh um what was i gonna say you know you're see now you're now you're entering what i've been in for like years of this constant like wait a second now i think this because um there there was a lot of uh well you know that the classic thing where like with disin for ufo disinformation they often say like some of it you know some real stuff is sort of peppered into yeah absolutely i think it was that kind of thing too where like maybe there was real you know some real stuff is sort of peppered into yeah absolutely i think it was that kind of thing too where like maybe there was real you know some real stuff is sort of peppered into yeah absolutely you know et ufo related research going on with some of this mind control stuff peppered in just to throw off the course well what connection did you just make when i said the atomic energy well what what i was thinking was um there is uh i think i sent you something about this guy a while ago and uh i i have to say now i don't know enough um so i don't want to go too much into it but there's a guy his name is oliver reiser he was a um philosophy professor at university of pittsburgh in the 60s and 70s um and he wrote a book called cosmic humanism which i've only read some of but it's basically uh this idea like his whole worldview is this idea that like everything is run everything in the world is just run on frequency tone sound he thinks it's like the universe is all sound uh and that's how you know we that's how like inner interstellar travel works that's how all psychic stuff where it all comes back down to this you know sound tones again there's this big connection here with this tone stuff but anyways buharish knew this guy they exchanged like dozens and dozens of letters but this guy's theory of um riser was you know the ability to communicate with you know et ufo is through tones through sound and he was like again so complex i can barely understand it but him and buharish would exchange these letters that were like you know two masters going back and forth about this stuff like diagrams charts math and like you got to think like they obviously were like onto something and again this goes back and forth about this stuff but he was like you know the ability to back for the hundredth time of like buharish's real interest in this stuff but riser yeah this was his theory that the way to communicate with you know non-human intelligence was essentially through tones and through sound and so you get buharish you know doing that basically where he's using tones and sound with space kids and can you while they're in a trance there's a tone and can you kind of like connect with that tone while you're in this hypnotic state and can you follow that tone where is it bringing you and what do you hear now all sorts of stuff like that um so i guess what i'm getting at is maybe there was some real research there that had to do with something that wasn't just you know a mind control thing because this guy riser was brilliant i mean in his opinion he was brilliant he was brilliant he was brilliant he was brilliant he was obituary of albert einstein said he was like you know a genius is that true yeah what yeah albert einstein said like riser is he had some quote about him being you know this genius that's insane because riser talks about like parapsychology and mind batter stuff yeah and you think of einstein as being totally opposed to yeah well i think with riser like a lot of guys like he started doing more you know quote-unquote legitimate research but he got he got obsessed with this again this this theory of tone sound connecting the universe this is how everything works and so him and puharich were um exchanging a lot of letters about like you know do you have the ability to to create such and such a tone and what at what speed should it spin within the you know complex stuff but would lead me as a lay person to think like okay clearly they like they're talking about something serious here you know it's so fascinating so so and in the atomic energy commission funding it i find those same years literally the same years he's exchanging letters with riser yeah 63 64 yeah that's when he gets the contract from atomic energy energy commission i mean it's all there's there's it's a paper trail and the 50s ufos showing up around nuclear bases is you this ubiquitous thing it's constant it's all over various cia air force documents you know i sort of document a lot of this stuff hastings documents it it's it was definitely a thing in 64 there's a famous case at vandenberg air force base oh yeah the guy named photo instrumentation specialist named bob jacobs um so that's that's fascinating yeah very interesting so yeah it just points back to this idea that i i you know he he was genuinely interested in in in paranormal you know research and in ufo i mean it's not just like all of that was fake yeah yeah i just think it got muddled at some point yeah and like i you know maybe there's somebody like typing out you know what these space kids are channeling and then it's converted into this elf frequency and it's transmitting to the you know space kids brain or whatever well you know it's weird you say that because on a lot of the tapes there's mention of um coupling to the computer data bank is often a topic that's term that is thrown around a lot and this idea that there are some sort of computers involved on which end though because are they recording what they're saying no what you what you just said somebody's typing something whoa because they often say oh now i'm back in the in the more cynical camp where it's at one point he said um that you know that referring to the channel being the person you know at some point he said um that you know that referring to the channel they will become a more reliable source of data and there's a lot of talk about about that and again like what we have are tapes and and tons of them and hundreds of hours so like you just all you can do is piece together well what did the space kids think do they think that they were genuinely tapping into nine you know non-human entities or extraterrestrials or do they think that they were tapping into like some dude on the other end like well it's a lot of them probably know the history that you know at this point well that's a great question and i think that's really the best way to approach it because they they were involved firsthand but i think you know to answer from what i know is i actually discovered things about you know what i'm talking about with these more sinister connections that they they did not know in fact um one of the space kids who i'm close with like yeah she she was like you know shocked i i because again what what they didn't understand what i think a lot of people didn't understand who were involved in this project is like information i was getting information like as recent as like six months ago about things that i didn't know that were like really important to the story like this guy bob beck who was who was most certainly cia who was at the at austening at the time of these exact space kids experiments this one of the spaces like i never even knew knew that like you're telling me this for the first time so it's a mix between i think to be quite honest i think a lot of them want to believe that what was happening was genuine and i think they want to remember the time they had there as a positive time and they want to they don't want to go down the negative path or they don't maybe want to accept that the negative path may may be you know the reality and i don't i mean i would probably do that i mean i you know so i think um some of them want to just try to say hey look we were told we were talking in the nine we were committing with the nine we were it was a good time we were young we were free you know etc and a few of them um have become more open like the guy from mexico city i told you where i think some of the things that i told them made them say wait a second i didn't know that and all of a sudden after all these years they themselves are going wait what is that and whose name is and they're starting to put pieces together that they never they never thought about and they're starting to maybe think at least okay something else was going on what was it you know we don't we don't know for sure but i think they're willing to accept like something else was going on back then one of the trippiest people that interacted with puharich who he probably had plans for and it almost seems like the subject of some you know kind of maniacal experiment is valerie ransone yeah who is she she well i wish i knew who she was she's like the most elusive person i've ever come across cross i think she's the most elusive person in this whole ufo history where i mean so basically what i do know is that she was um she was working in the uh white house during the uh nixon administration and it had nothing to do with like intelligent or maybe it did but it had nothing to do with intelligence or anything it was it was some sort of um uh program to i can't remember it was sort of like a snap benefits type program it was something like this but that's how she was you know involved in government was she was part of a a program like that but apparently she became very interested in the ufo topic uh she became very good friends with um gordon cooper and she claimed to be a space kid i guess like she claimed to be able to like channel information and so she somehow wound up at puharich's lab lab 9 and 78 and she is very there there's nothing there about her there's nothing out there about her there's a couple people i know about who have been trying to track her down for years they can't apparently she's still alive but she basically um i believe was extremely deep in the whole ufo thing and i think knew a lot we have a tape recording of um this guy elvis star who was very very high up uh i can't remember his exact role he was like maybe head of the army in this in the 60s some high up role in the army but anyways he was very very connected his pictures of him with like every you know president during the 60s 70s like there was a tape of him saying like i met valerie rancon in the white house um she believed she was in touch with extraterrestrials and he kind of makes a joke like what do i know maybe she was but that kind of firmly places her in that circle because there's a lot of speculation about like what's true and what's not true but this was a very legitimate guy basically placing her what's what was his role exactly he was um so from what i understand is yeah he was like the head of uh army something or other and then he went on to become the president of like west virginia university but he was a part of all these like weird science um uh companies and weird energy companies that were happening in the late 70s like there's this this company called magnetic energies llc or something that valerie had some sort of connection to and this guy was like consulting for that or he was connected to a lot of like weird stuff basically and there's very little on him other than his more official kind of government roles but um he he has this because he was writing a memoir and we found this tape where he was kind of like dictating um the what he was writing and he says yeah i met her she was in the white house a lot um she knew a lot of people but yeah she basically she just claimed that she could communicate with ufos that were giving her advanced um information that she in effect had to pass on to like important scientists she predicted the failure of one of these rocket launches in the late 70s that actually did occur which i don't know you have to that's so great what um oh wow so so so basically she was there but but the kicker is like she was also really involved in a lot of tesla technology research a lot of elf research and a lot of people who i know who were um including the space kids uh were like yeah she was like she was connected she was extremely mysterious we have no idea what was going on with her um so they remember seeing her around yeah yeah and then and then she but and she was somehow like do you know what role she had in the white house or no other than this guy elvis star basically saying like i i met her on on numerous occasions at you know inside the white house you can look it up i i can look it up too i i i'm sorry i don't remember but it was some program that she like ran in dc and as part of the nixon administration which again was not like involved in an intelligence thing but that was her like in with with that that world and she had some nro involvement too yeah jacques valet is the only one i know who wrote about it but he claims that he he spoke with her back in that late 70s time and she was doing some sort of work for the nro and experimenting with satellites and messages from satellites to people and i'm telling you man yeah i mean i've tried to i mean the other film i'm doing which is a whole other thing but she's really involved in that and that's how i got into her because we have a tape recording of her um that was a phone call that was recorded but yeah if there's like any crazy enigma in this world that someone needs to like get to the bottom of it's it's her and uh i don't know if they ever will because i've certainly tried hard to and apparently she's still alive she's still alive yeah oh you gotta go find her man well i've i've i think i'm gonna have to go find her i'm gonna have to go find her i'm gonna have to go find her i think i i think we kind of know where where she is and stuff but but it's really just strange she was very involved with gordon cooper and again he had started some company as well that was some like advanced energy llc or something and so from what i understand she was kind of like going around and even jacques says this like she was just trying to create this network of of you know high up government individuals and people to kind of like start getting interested in in advanced technology tesla technology elf stuff but all the while she claimed to be you know a space kid and able to receive information and and channel information and so trippy yeah and there's a guy a kick green he um i mean i don't even care anymore at this point about saying stuff like this like he i was talking to him for a while and he was like yeah i can't be involved in anything but mentions buharas is too controversial and then he told me that he knew valerie ranston really well and that he was like i don't know much about him again i'm not trying to cover because i'm like nervous or anything i i genuinely don't really know i just know i've heard a lot about him being like a dot like a person who helps like abductee people who claim they're abducted and stuff so apparently he was doing that even back then with valerie and he was working with her which i don't know what that means exactly but he was doing that even back then with valerie and he was working with her and he was very i mean there's something out there online as that's you know very you know open where he talks about this i think but um anyways he i i was like hey i'm trying to do this valerie thing he was just like yeah no uh and like basically like don't talk to me again and anything revolving that name i can't be associated with and every single person i've talked to who knew valerie or had same reaction yeah i'm literally like i wouldn't go there you should just kind of stop now and i've gotten all that stuff whoa so like what's going on what do you think do you have it was first of all a little context for the audience kit green um it's deeply involved he's a cia psychiatrist and doctor i knew that but after all that stuff i don't really know like what his he's he's deeply involved in like i think the whatever cia files around biological interactions from you know people interacting with ufos that was given to um gary nolan in the like mid 2010s i think that was i think given by kit green and kit green analyzed them alongside gary nolan but he's like a long time guy who kind of pops up in ufo lore kind of akin to uh how put off but really seems to be as deep as anybody specifically on kind of the the psychological kind of you know you know neuroscientific dimension of of this whole thing so what what do you do you speculate as to what valerie well yeah i have a couple of things but yeah the kit green thing again i'm not i did talk to him i'm not trying to throw him under the bus i just think he like it's just another example of someone who's like oh her yeah i can't be involved like you you're better off like not going there kind of thing so a couple of speculations firstly and this came from someone um uh named bruce erickson who's this kind of like new age researcher guy who um i i know who's really cool but uh he knew her he knew valerie really well and he um painted her in the same light as like you know she always happened to be there whenever something was going on she always happened to travel with no no issues no money issues she's always anywhere she needed to be but um he speculates that she was sort of um like a spy and and that and the type that would maybe sleep with with somebody for information and a lot of reasons that these men in particular don't want to talk about her is you know i don't need to say it maybe something happened now they're married they don't want to go there maybe that's why it's this very standoffish thing which i can get that but that was his theory um because apparently she's really good i mean there's one photograph that i know literally one that exists of her that's not true there's one online and there's one that i have and i don't know if it's true but i don't know if it's true but i don't know if it's in the Puharich archives of her at Lab 9, and you know yeah she was very good looking so that was this one theory is that she was kind of like getting information um on behalf of who i don't know but this you know you hear about that uh happening you know sleep to that kind of thing so that was what this guy said who knew her well that was his theory but um the other theory is that she um was again with the same idea of being an attractive woman was able to lure in uh individuals to help with funding for certain projects and hey i'm a part of this thing you should be a part of this thing because again she was always on these boards of these sort of weird energy companies and things like that but um the really weird thing is i don't know if you've seen it there's there's allegedly an interview of her on youtube so you you probably know this youtube account eyes on cinema oh yeah yeah so so anyways on there this one day this was not even that long it was like a year ago this video pops up and it says valerie ransone like describes her ufo um experience you can go anyone can go right now and look it up and i was like holy holy shit like that's her i've never seen again there's one picture and i'm like oh my this is crazy right so in the interview it's really bizarre she tells us really weird and the thing is it checks out of what we know from her and most of the information is from the forbidden science books jock valet stuff and you know she says i was going to school in northern illinois in this interview uh she says she moved to houston we know jock met her in houston uh the point is everyone i know who knew valerie i said oh this is great a video exists of her now sent it to them hey look here's valerie like can you believe this every no that's not her nope that's definitely not her i knew her that's not her and i said well that doesn't make sense because like everything she says in the video checks out to what we definitely know nope not her not one person and even this do you think they were like they just again didn't want to i don't know but it's just she it's so goes back she's so she's the biggest enigma in this whole world every single one of them nope oh man what you know anyone who thinks that's her as an idiot and but everything she says checks out and in the video she tells this crazy story about how she had a ufo experience when she was a kid in college and her friends saw it and then after that she continued to have bizarre um sightings of ufo sightings happened to her in her life many times and then some guy you got to see the video she says this guy um shows up one day to her job and is like hey you know i want to take you i can't remember exactly that what she says but basically this very mysterious guy shows up they go out to lunch and he's like i don't know i don't know i don't know he's like you know i know that you've had these ufo experience and he and he spouts all this stuff about her that no one would otherwise ever know like stuff about her family i know you've had you had this ufo experience at this time in this location so she's shocked right so then she says she gets into the car with this guy because he's driving her home or something and he gets a tape cassette puts it in the car and the tape cassette starts and it's a voice a metallic voice basically saying you know i am an a i'm an et and i'm here on earth on like a humanitarian mission and i we want you to work with us you you're going to be the first uh test human to work with us and you know do you do you accept this position and and then she she the guy parks and she gets out or whatever and and she starts to question okay what what's going on here like was this real was this guy trying to like recruit and what it's it's that's her story and then after that is when all this stuff happens of her getting involved this was like early 70s she claims this happens and all this stuff that we know about is you know late 76 and 77 70 so that's her like origin story but apparently it's not her according to everyone who knew her oh that's not her that's not the right woman that's not even what she looks like so but on the tape recording we have this which is a recorded phone conversation the voice on that which is most definitely her sounds it's it's her on this video it sounds just sounds the same it sounds like that voice so it's probably her yeah it's so weird so that's a it sounds like that voice so it's probably her yeah it's so weird so it's probably her yeah it's so weird so that's a like a good amount of time at lab nine um and she brought gordon cooper there and then she disappeared and everyone who knew her was like yeah i have no idea what happened to her or they're just straight up don't want to talk about her i don't know it's really bizarre she wrote some book that's basically all this like channeled information that she got have you read it uh no well i i've i've skimmed it but i think you used to be able to buy it on some odd website which is now down in the woods so i think you used to be able to buy it on some odd website which is now down in the woods so i think you used to be able to buy it on some odd website which is now down but um it's very very strange and um when i was trying to get in contact with her i weirdly this is a crazy story i got in like this this guy got in touch with me completely out of the blue and this has happened a few times throughout the the making of this where like someone is like hey i heard you got you have buharch's archives i'm really interested in him and what do you have and we should we should talk and and that kind of thing this one guy weirdly right around the time of trying to um try to track down valerie he reaches out to me and he's like same thing hey i know i'm a i'm a researcher and i heard your name about buharch and this and that and he's like you know have you heard of valerie rant zone i said yeah he goes oh would you want to talk to her because i'm actually in contact with her and i'm like yeah sure and and so he forwards me an email which is allegedly from valerie which is like you know hey i'm a researcher and i heard your name about buharch and this and that and he's like hey uh you know let's talk and this and that and and one thing led to another and this guy just completely ghost disappears right never heard from him again i look him up on facebook and again i may maybe i'm crazy and this stuff has gotten to my head but his facebook looks like the the the quintessential i'm making a fake facebook account this isn't me kind of thing sure and that you know again i'm very level-headed that it really like spooked me out and then years later year this was we're talking probably two uh probably like 2016 17 i'm talking like you know not that long ago like 2021 20 he reaches back out to me and is like hey you know what's going on with the film and is there any way i can see it and did you ever talk to valerie if you want i can try to get and i just never responded to the guy again it was really strange wow and i tried the email that he had that he claimed was valerie's of course it like you know weird but well what happened when you emailed oh no nothing okay it wasn't it didn't kick back but i just never you never got anything i never got anything back ever yeah but you think you've located her yes and you're gonna try to interview yes that's amazing yeah well i hope you do man that would be incredible yeah i mean there's a lot to get in with into it with her but that's that's the gist of it and just the fact alone that kit green was involved with her back in the late 70s is really strange so strange yeah and early 80s yeah this is crazy it's so it's like there's a woman in the nixon white house who's to claim she's channeling aliens and also happens to be on the board of all these sort of you know spooky science outfits that seem to stem from exotic tesla you know uh extra low frequency technology it's really wild and what i can say for for again for a fact is like in the late 70s there really was like so much um unknown about this potential like radio frequency weapons and it's on youtube there's a whole cnn special which came out a little later i think it was like 83 but it was kind of detailing all the research that had gone into like you know those those types of weapons and you know the the the and um you know radio towers that can beam a certain frequency that can agitate people and etc so that was kind of like the wild west and that in the late 70s there of like i think people trying to figure out what this is what can be done with it and he was just like in in the middle of that and um you know there was a lot of people running around researching that at the time and i think there was also a lot of research happening of um you know what's the potential of this stuff what's possible with it um so and valerie was again interested in that and was involved in in that so it's so wild um what are the implications for all of this on modern ufo disclosure which seems to usually emphasize kind of aerospace contractors secret you know nuts and bolts weapons technology faster than light travel that sort of thing what are the implications of the stuff you're looking into for for that i think it's i honestly i think it's more of the same that we talked about earlier i think there's some there's some truth peppered into a lot of you know false going on and i think that that still happens you know i think that's still going on so you know i think the implications are it's just still difficult to navigate what's what's real and what is not real you know and i think it takes people you know like you and and others who are like really seriously interested in looking into this stuff and talking to people to to kind of like keep going with it you know yeah well this is a i mean if they're you know it's a big puzzle that we're putting together this is a huge piece that i think is missing for a lot of people you know prior to your movie so i really hope uh people go check it out i think it's going to be you know make make a lot of waves and update a lot of people's understanding of this whole topic and i loved it i thought it was really well made um how can people go find it uh well it's going to be for purchase um on you know itunes and youtube and that kind of thing yeah we're going to do kind of like this uh release now with um age of disclosure okay we're going to do like a you know you can purchase it for a certain amount of time a little bundle situation yeah okay cool but there's some interest in in um some streaming stuff so and any anything big that uh i didn't touch on that i should have had honestly like yeah probably but i mean you got your gift that keeps on giving that's crazy oh oh um the one thing i was going to mention is um this is again an example of something like very recently like bobby ray inman yeah i know a lot of people are talking about right now i called him because because he was uh head of uh naval intelligence i think during this exact time um that buharch is doing a lot of space kids stuff like late 70s into the early 80s and a lot of elf stuff and i just just called him straight up and i introduced myself how'd you get his number online what yeah i kid you not it's one of those classic white pages sites where it was like a bunch of different numbers and i'm like none of these are ever going to work and i was like hello and it was him it was one of them oh my god and he was pretty nice but i just straight up was like hey have you ever heard you know the name andre buharch do you know bob beck that because those are the two working at that time um with the space kids and he was like no i've never heard the name and he was really nice and he was just like if you come across anything more concrete you can call me back and and um but i just figured huh maybe he he knows something because we know we know naval intelligence at one point uh was like a big funder of buharch not not only back in the 50s but going into um the early 80s as well but anyways he didn't that's what harold malmgren always said he said the the deepest you know kind of core was the oni office of naval intelligence they really knew the most about this stuff yeah he he buharch was in with them very early on and he continued in fact there was a um scientist working with buharch at the this time elizabeth rauscher she passed away but they got like this huge grant from the oni and i was like you know looking everywhere to try to find dog she has a huge archive at berkeley of all of her research and i i had someone go there and look and we couldn't find anything but but um you know they they were working with a lot of people then um but yeah in men uh didn't come up with anything so yeah well he might have reasons to withhold information as well he was the i think uh deputy director of the cia and the director of the nsa at the same time i believe yeah something like that um oh the other thing yeah the last thing i'll say is uh not unlike valerie one of the space kids who we did an interview because we couldn't find her but she's on a lot of these tapes so it was this woman named sharon so um you know sharon with two r's and like valerie you know huge question mark everyone who knew her then was like she was this very legitimate real psychic buharch apparently would bring her around show her off to people in government and academics and just say like look what she can do she can channel all this advanced information he was always working with her there's pictures of her and she just disappeared and everyone who knew her back then was like you know it would be amazing if you found her because she they were convinced that she was pulled into a you know stranger things montauk project type project where like she was the real deal and she was sort of pulled into a project like that that's why she's just kind of like wiped off the face there there's nothing about her anywhere again i went to the great lengths to try to locate her nothing does this people don't want to like valerie they don't want to talk about her when you bring her up so that was another example of like okay maybe there's some reality here because it's just so bizarre and like multiple space kids were like yeah i knew her well and i wish we could find her like she was a friend of mine and she disappeared just like she was a the whole program was a feeder maybe into something deeper yeah there's a lot of conspiracy stuff like that out there but um people think that his yeah buharch's lab was was that so do you does this add to your conviction you know i think even the makers of stranger things say that uh it's based off of you know the montauk experiments and i think it's pretty well established that there were some experiments in montauk on the island does this add to your conviction that i don't know you hear all these things around gifted and talented education you know uh kids who have psi abilities yeah being taken into secret national labs facilities often associated with the atomic energy commission or federally funded research and institute and others and um you know they're they're told to like you know how do you interact with this exotic piece of metal or uh you know pick a card or you know things like that does this add to your conviction that this was happening in sort of a widespread way oh yeah buharch himself um again if you choose to believe you know what he says he he openly says i helped locate these kids i mean he says like i was the person who would say you know yeah this you know this one checks out and they would move on to wherever they would move on to um he talks about helping other countries with this the uk he said he traveled to the uk and helped them locate children with psi abilities so it's all that it's all that gray area you know yeah and you you have to ask why this stuff is coming back into vogue like you have the telepathy tapes top the podcast charts in the entire country yeah and part of me is thinks it's a beautiful amazing thing and obviously in my opinion i think i don't think it's all a psyop i think that some of these autistic non-verbal children are actually they do have really amazing abilities it's unfortunate that some of them like this woman that went on danny jones um i think are actually faking things the mother of one of the kids and she called her clearly was peeking past this blindfold which is it's just so sad and what a poor representation of you know again what i think is an underlying real phenomena but does it does it make you ask questions around why is all of this stuff coming back into vogue it feels like if you were to take an index of aliens psi and psychedelics um and you were to you were to you know like say it's like a like an etf or something if you were to invest in this in the late 60s early 70s you'd like lose a lot of money into today but now if you were to invest in these things five years ago or something it just feels like they're all taking off like it feels like the trend is like and are you cynical about that is is there is there i mean maybe even to take that etf analogy further are there financial or corporate interests behind the repopularization of some of these things because a part of me is extremely idealistic about them coming out because i do think it touches on kind of deeper architectures and nature of reality and then there's another part of me where i'm like it's got to be coming out now because of some military industrial complex reason or something i don't know i mean i think i certainly think this film is going to help you know put some pieces together about the history of all this stuff and i think the fact that it's coming out now is interesting because of all this you know this resurgence of interest in it but um i know what you mean i don't know like i talked to a kid who claimed he was part of the gate program and i won't say his name but now now he's very vocal online about his involvement in that and what he did and he wanted to talk to me because it was so similar to the stuff the space kids did that he read about but i don't know what's i don't know what to believe yeah you know with that so it's just i don't know i'm in the same i'm in the same boat as you i don't know what what the motives may be but i think I think that Puharich was certainly extremely important in this whole world. And the fact that there's never really been something like on him that's out there is exciting for me, obviously. So I think it'll, I think it'll raise some eyebrows. I think so too. Raise some eyebrows, maybe ruffle some feathers, but you know, you know, you're on the right path if you do that. But, um, Greg, this is an honor, man. This is a lot of fun. One of my, honestly, like I love information dense podcasts, especially ones that are uncorrelated from other, you know, I love the stories, you know, I love, I saw a thing and I was in the bed and I wasn't, you know, they put a chip in me. Like that's, it's fascinating, but it's always hard to sense make after that. Like, how does this fit into some, you know, coherent tapestry of what's actually happening. I love this interview because you just, to me, again, you know, you, you added this big puzzle piece, uh, that seems to be missing as far as this whole story. And obviously begets, uh, you know, a hundred more questions, but, um, I really hope everybody checks out the movie and, uh, thank you for being here. Thank you, man. Appreciate it. Awesome. Head to AmericanAlchemyMerch.com to grab official American Alchemy merch and support the show directly. And while you're there, the cowboy UFO tee is a fan favorite. We always keep in stock along with the atomic age design. Thank you all so much for following and supporting the show. you