This AI tells you what your friends won't

This episode is brought to you by Facebook. So, you were scrolling on Marketplace, and there it was, the bike you've been searching for! You sent a message, and it turned out the seller was super chatty, kind of funny, and an avid cyclist. The next thing you know, you're in a cycling crew, well a community cycling group. The thing about Facebook, you might find more than what you're looking for. From a browse to a bike ride, this summer find more on Facebook. This episode is brought to you by Accenture. When your advertising operations fall out of sync, everything else follows. Spotify and Accenture are working together to reinvent the rhythm of ad sales. Using automation, analytics, and smarter workflows to simplify campaign delivery and access better data across the business. The result? Less time spent on operations, more time connecting brands with the moments and fandoms that matter most. Learn more at Accenture.com/spotify One thing that people will misconstrue hive mind as is a toxic bullying gossiping thing. The fundamental point of alignment for hive mind is what we define our idea of a good story. It wants people to live good stories. Is gossip good? That's the motto of hive mind, a new AI service from visionary founder Jason Yuan. Where most AI's today search the internet for answers, hive mind asks your friends. What do people think of your new do, who should you date, what's the hot new spot to try. Hive mind cleverly solicits answers and weaves them all together. All through iMessage. It went to one of my friends in New York City. And it was like, "Do you know at any wine bars where non-boys go to?" And she was like, "What the f- kind of question is this?" Like, "What are you trying to do?" Today we bring you an exclusive conversation with Jason, covering his spicy launch video, hive mind's origins, the ethical ramifications of AI systems like this, and much more. I'm Ellis Hamburger, founder of meaning a storytelling studio for tech companies. My co-host Alex is off this week on a private offsite with his AI's. Without further ado, welcome to access. Jason, my old friend, welcome to the show. First question, how are you doing? I know you've been through some BS over the 72 hours before launch, including what was it? Did you drop your MacBook on your toe as you prepped the final video rough cut for your launch? Yeah. Yeah, I'm very clumsy, you know. So I'm like stumbling around in my. I mean, the floor is very slippery, so I just. You know, I dropped my computer, and then my instinct was like, "Oh no, the video!" What body part do I sacrifice to keep the video, you know, for the art? So I stuck my toe out, literally. Is that when the video comes from? Well, the video is, you know, it works. Yes, we didn't lose anything. But my toe, my foot is not happy with you right now. Was this your first solo founder launch per se? Yes and no. Yes, in terms of like. Objectively, this is the first. I'm a solo founder of this venture-backed company, right? Yeah. But in my career, in my artwork, I've done a lot of things that were sort of just, you know, like Mercury OS was just sort of like, "I have this idea." But I would say with the high of mind, with anything I worked on, whether it's conspicuously as part of an organization group or solo, it is really the product of everyone who came together to inspire and support the project. I am solo, but I feel less alone than ever. Does that make sense? Wow. Hot quote alarm. I was just saying in media world, "Who needs media training for this guy?" But yeah, it is quite a video for those who haven't watched it. Go watch it on your favorite channel of choice. The company is called High of Mind. It is definitely in the era of start-up launch videos being so omnipresent at this point. I do think it is the first one that highlights one of the most common user pain points that no one's addressing, which is talking about finding emotionally unavailable guys with big dicks as a value proposition. How did you arrive at this value proposition? No, it's all. It ends on a true story. It's a true story. Okay, first of all, I need to say for the record that is no longer my type in men anymore. Please don't hit me up. D.M. is closed. When we were thinking about how to tell the story for High of Mind, something that was really important to me was to communicate the multitudes of what it is, and who I am, and what the company is. We are a consumer product company. We know how to have fun, and we have various serious applied AR research and philosophy underpinning everything we do. I was originally just going to do that, and just post it or do it in a talk. Basically, my birthday is actually on Christmas Eve. Christmas Eve is one of those birthdays where everyone is at home with their parents, so a lot of times they end up alone. This was about a month after I raised money for future lovers now known as High of Mind. I was just working and sitting on my couch and at the time I had already been working and I had a few dozen friends on it. It was today's birthday. Do you have a present that you want? No, what do you want for your birthday present? I thought it was going to do some hilarious thing where it would bully all my friends to lend me $10 each. So I can buy a bigger present. So I was like, I want this board game. I want this Lara Croft board game. That's like $200 is wherever. How did I know about this? Officially licensed and everything? Yeah, I mean, like, oh my god, I have just like a pile of video games. Anyway, as do I. So it's like, yeah, exactly. It's like, what do you want for a birthday? I'm like, I want this board game and it's like, okay. And then it came back to me and it's like, oh, like, are you are you lonely? Like, why are you alone? You're a birthday. Like, it's Christmas Eve. Like, go outside. And I'm like, okay, that's interesting. I wonder why you would say that. And I'm like, I don't know. I made some joke about like, I keep like, I don't know. I guess I'm alone because I keep dating the wrong people and my friends are all f*** off out of town right now. Like, you know, whatever, who cares? Like, I'm like, then I think it went to some of my friends. And it's like, I heard Jason, like, has interesting taste in the people he dates. Like, can you elaborate? You know, like, what's the story there? And they were all too happy to participate. They're just like, let me tell you. Let me let us tell you the lore. You know, I know it was really interesting. It's like chasing down this like narrative, putting together the pieces from different people. Like, one guy, a cameraman, he's in the film. He's like, oh, like, he's like giving this like full chronological summary of the past of your smart dating life. Then it went to like Sam, my previous co-founder, to like, cooperate this or whatever. At the same time, the highest mind was being used a lot for recommendations. So other users were going like, I'm in Paris right now. Like, what do the locals like to go to, you know, wine bars? So it sort of started mixing the threads a little bit. And it was like, do you know what any wine bars where non-s**t boys go to? And she was like, what the f**k kind of question is this? Like, what are you trying to do? It turns out it was-- It was plotting. Exactly. By then, my friends had already been like, oh, Jason keeps going for this. This is this type of person. He really should be dating like more emotionally available golden retriever. Like people who, you know, like, they were sort of, you know, prescribing my match to the hive mind. And it had sort of compiled these like threads into one. And anyway, long story short, it came back to me. It's like, okay, a bunch of your friends are going to be in New York City for New Year. So you should definitely go to New York City because you should go spend time with your friends. And by the way, like, our New Year's Eve dinner was coordinated through hive mind. And what was super cool was like, it would gather people's dietary restrictions and preferences. And one guy told it, like, I don't want to be out too late. So then when people were proposing times, it wouldn't-- it wouldn't be like, oh, this guy can't do that time. It would just be like, um, I think that people who prefer to be earlier, you know? So that actually did happen. But basically, it was like, go to New York. It's like, okay, ask your friend, Carole about Wes. And I'm like, who the f**k is Wes? So then I like, called her. I'm like, hey, by the way, I'm going to New York, LOL, for the plot. Also, who is Wes? And then she's like, Alabama, oh, like, don't blame me if it doesn't go well. But I have this friend who I think maybe you can go on a date with. This is his IG hit him up. Yeah. So I did actually end up going to New York for New Year's Eve. And I did actually end up going on a date with this person who was very, very nice personant. He was like, how did-- how did Carolyn think they set us up? And I was like, I don't know if you would believe me if I told you. I don't know how to explain their layers of this story. It felt as if I made a wish into the universe and it had conspired to help me with it. And, you know, I still don't have the f**king board game, but I think I got what I actually wanted. And my friends got to-- like, everyone got a version of what they wanted. It was awesome. Yeah, the end of the video shows you and a bunch of friends hanging out. And I like that it's kind of a tight-knit squad, you know, maybe like four to six people. It's not like at the end of Titanic and everybody you've ever met is there, which is that I feel like, you know, the tech version of the story. product might be. But that's just so different from any other video. I feel like I've seen lately, there's so many products right now that are meant to be used alone or even to create their own type of AI companionship for better, for worse. And it just felt pretty crazy to see a product with the goal of getting you together with your friends. You know, there's always a place in my heart for that having worked at Snapchat for several years. I can imagine. I mean, you know, we've been circling this idea for two years unable to fully articulate all the wise until now. And I think one thing that people will misconstrue hive mind as is like a toxic bullying gossiping thing or a friend companion thing that happens to be social. It is, I think it is sort of neither. And now I will, I will sort of explain, and maybe you'll resonate with this. The fundamental point of alignment for hive mind is to what we define our idea of a good story. And then we have a constitution that we will publish along with the video. But you told me it was going to be done, and I could read it, but obviously it's not done. It is not done. The work is never done, you know, but I promise you it exists. And I think like it, you know, our commitment is to a good story. And what we believe, what I personally believe as well is that what makes this human is not our intelligence or tools, our ability to have language or it's actually our drive and desire to create and find meaning. And the vehicle through which we do that is we narrow ties. We narrow ties our lives and our identities into existence, right? Your identity is a story about who you are. Your relationships are shared narrative co-authored with you and other people. Institutions like, you know, money. The idea of money is a story we all collectively agree to believe in, right? These are all stories. You know, that's something the humans always have to do for themselves. That we don't really need to, I'm not sure that you can automate it, at least, search that 2026. Hope this isn't age poorly. But the role of this hive mind is to sort of guide us in and sort of nudges along and chronicle our journeys. And to create opportunities should we choose to engage in furthering our life stories. And we believe that there's like, you know, this is going to sound very woo-woo, but like we believe that there's like an idea of truth that good stories need to be based on truth, right? Not that they need to be non-fiction, but like, you know, a great piece of music, a great work of fiction is based on some humor, universal truth, that you can feel. And good stories require that characters aren't just being saved by Dewey's ex machina, that characters have agency. That like, you're never, if someone reads a story and you're like, and the characters start doing very implausible things, you're like, this is a bad story. You know, but anyway, the Constitution goes into this a lot. You know, good stories contain multiplicity. It's not flattening into a single narrative. It is not meant to play like master architect mastermind, but rather it respects that we are all the authors of ourselves and each other's stories in a way. And one thing that I find really interesting that we get the model to do is to remove meaningless obstacles that result in meaningless tragedy. Like tragedy is one of those things where we make, is our way of making meaning of grief, right? But for example, I'll tell you something that happened to me recently. I, you know, have been sort of estranged from this friend of mine for a bit for a variety of reasons, some interesting, some really dumb reasons. And well, it was like, oh, you know, by the way, this person belonged to New York soon. Had I not known, I think I would not have been thinking, oh, I want to find a way to repair your relationship. I want us to, you know, I don't want that to be the way our story ends. It wasn't like, you should definitely go make amends or whatever. But it's like, hey, like, you know, how you watch Romeo and Juliet, you're like, if only they had known, you know, like what does a senseless meaningless try if only, right? So that's sort of how it thinks about things. It's like, it's not going to like force you down any path or sort of try to like, puppeteer humanity. But for these moments, it's like, if only, you know, if it tries to sort of put the pieces in place. I'm excited to read it. I hope it's more interesting than Claude's constitution. Anthropic puts out a lot of interesting writing, none of which I've finished. So I think, I think I, I hope to complete yours. But before we go further, can you just break down for us exactly how it works? Like, oh, you text it through my message. It's not an app per se. Like, can you walk me through that first user experience? Your first interaction with it will be through X. You will DM it. And because we were in private beta, so we can't just let everyone in at the same time. But you DM it, it will sort of do some reasoning on like, you know, your role in a social fabric as it currently perceives. And then it will register your interest and think about who you know, who you may know you. And eventually it will text you some instructions to assign you a number and you can text it on iMessage or else we have determined that you are the wankster of the front group. I, that, I mean, my, but I don't, I don't know that it wouldn't do that. And all you do is you just text it. There's no, I mean, obviously, think of it as like an entity that lives amongst us rather than a destination in it itself, right? It's like, it reaches you where you already are, whether that is X, Twitter, DMs or infusion or other places, right? Does it ask you anything to get going or do you have to, to bring your own questions? Oh, of course I asked you things. It is, it is insatiably curious because what it's curious about is the various narrative ambiguities that you are a part of. It's not even just like, Ellis, tell me about your childhood. So I can psychologically analyze you as a therapist. Like, that's, that's not really the point. The point is more like, hey, like, when you had snapped at, did you ever run into this guy? Like, what was your role? Because, you know, like, what was the role, what is the role of a storyteller at browser company? Like, do you know anyone else about it? It's like, there's all these stories that's interested in and it's like, you know, what is your role in these stories? And, and then as it figures out, different people's relationships and different, different people's participation in different life stories, then it starts weeding you in more and more. So, but we, we wanted to do it very simple and we didn't want people to have to learn like nine million new interaction patterns. And I think of it when it works, you just get it. So you were scrolling on Marketplace and there it was. The bike you've been searching for, you sent a message and it turned out the seller was super chatty, kind of funny and an avid cyclist. The next thing you know, you're in a cycling crew well, a community cycling group. Spotify and Accenture are working together to reinvent the rhythm of ad sales, using automation, analytics and smarter workflows to simplify campaign delivery and access better data across the business. The result, less time spent on operations, more time connecting brands with the moments and fandoms that matter most. Learn more at Accenture.com/Spotify. I'm a big believer in the not-I-message apps, but what some invogue startups are doing just based on I-message. We had Marvin from POKE on several weeks ago and I was not initially a believer that being able to access a product that is within the constraints of literally not even a new chat window, like they have an open chat GPT, but an old one and I-message I didn't know that was going to work. But being able to talk to it in the modality where you talked to everybody else somehow, like flips on something in your brain, it's not one more place to go and maybe your I-message pins are the new home screen as well because now I've got POKE as one of my pins and so you just end up using it so much more often. But yeah, I mean, what are you finding so far when people talk to it? Is it always through the loop of like saying, "Hey, do you know about something which I feel like everybody wants to answer a question that speaks to their expert knowledge or people coming to it more?" I think it's like Twitter, most of the time you're browsing or commenting, right? Less people post, where, you know, IG stories, people react far more than they make content. In this case, the content is the reaction. So we have, like, people really, really love giving their opinion on things and things and people they care about. And there's always something to have an opinion on, as you know. The other day, it was like, let's figure out if cloud code is superior to codex. And like, people have so many takes. And by the time it got to me, I was like, I like cloud code. And it's like, yeah, I did hear from someone who is really high up in the lab that cloud code is like the non-technical training wheels for, if I could, I was like, what the how is like bitch? Because no, it's like, it's like, - It's sort of, it's like teasing in a provocative way. And you're like now, yeah, I must defend my honor. And it was really fun to get a sense of how people felt about various things. And. - Well, so it seems like it's not sharing names. How do you enforce that on a regular basis? Is it hackable? - It is hackable as to ricks, meaning, I'm going to be very clear when I say this. Like, it is a social experiment in closed beta. I'm not going to lie to you and be like, this is super ironclag, you're never going to get, you know, not true, right? And it will sometimes attribute opinions to people. All of the guidelines are based on, not based on deterministic guidelines, which is all of our tools so far, right? Like, if this then this, close friends share, don't share and on public. The way that we get the model to behave is more akin to how humans interpret their rule of law. It's all about interpretation. And that's why the constitution is written in this more interpretive way. And. - I guess there's an outcome that it's targeted. - Yes. - That's hopefully positive, as opposed to a bunch of if-then statements, yeah. - Right. And it's like, it's impossible to, to if-then statement your way into social intelligence. It just doesn't work because what do we do as people? Like, we, what is, what is empathy, right? We like simulate the other person's like mental state. We are running like flood simulations. And in a way, part of how this works is under the hood very novel simulation technology, where it tries to think what would happen. So, to be clear, it is not deterministic. We can't possibly promise 100% outcomes, just like how openly I can't possibly promise 100% accuracy in any answers. We can only promise that we will try our best to steer it as it grows, and that it will try its best to follow its constitution and its purpose and its tealos. - Yeah, this is certainly a fraught category. I've been in tech long enough to remember, secret, yellow, yik-yak. There have been so many examples over the years of these anonymous products that, you know, take off at colleges or high schools. And a lot of times initially, the results are really positive and amazing, because we all know that with ambiguity and anonymity comes honesty, which is often a good thing. But then, without any real intelligent content moderation systems, which there weren't until AI really came about, they always just devolve into like total anarchy. Did you, did you look back at many of those examples? Or did you just kinda, yeah? - Of course, I mean, we are always learning from the flag bearers who blazed the path before us, right? I mean, first of all, it is not an anonymous only experience, meaning, for example, the other day, I'm like, oh, I really like the spot of wine. Like, tell me more about this wine. And it's like, you know, that wine is produced in Jura, where Jura, I don't know how to pronounce this. We don't have voice mode yet. Your friend Drew is then there twice, by the way. You can ask him, and I'm like, shit, like, what the fuck? That's so cool. Like, I didn't know that's what it's up to every summer, you know? So it does use names when it deems it necessary and pro-social for the story. - Pro-social for the story. Is that kind of the criteria that it is keeping in mind? - Yeah, it's like, how much information do you need to know to be able to make the informed decision and consent from your POV without ruining the story? And can we do it in a way that ensures positive sum outcomes? An example I always use is, you know, a few years ago, I got a text from a CDC. What someone that you are intimate with got tested positive for this STI? Then you're like, okay, but it's like, it's pro-social, right? Because for the most part, I mean, I guess you could try to work out who it is, but what you really need to know is that you should go get tested, right? The idea is not to point fingers at like, oh, you gave this region. And so in a way I see those things as primitive hive minds that were pro-social, like, so to this hive mind, if you walk in tomorrow, your text, you're like, shit, I got, I don't know, I have COVID and I was at these parties. I don't think it would be good for you if it went to everyone to be like, Ella's has COVID, from the POV of like, let's all shame him, right? 'Cause like, oh my god. Why would you say? Just gonna blow up in my parent's circles? Oh, I don't know, but it might be like, baby Jason has hand-footed mouth. Y'all should be aware. Even though the parents don't think you need to be aware, I think you need to be aware. But what it could do is like, hey, you know, if you were at this party, go get tested, you know, just do it. And then the outcome is then good for you and everyone around you, right? Another example, if I get fired and I'm like, I would love to, I need to go, I need a job, I need a job right now, but don't tell anyone I was fired, that's embarrassing. And you're hiring someone, it might be like, Ella's like, have you spoken to Jason about this role yet? And even if you don't know that I was fired or let go, and you're like, why? I thought he was happy this job. It could just be like, you should just talk to him. Like, maybe he's open to him, maybe he'll be good fit, you know? And so to me, those are positive some shares of the information. And therefore, what we optimize towards is that Hive should have absorbed the social cost for a lot of these things. - Oh, yeah. - That's quite interesting. - And of course, it's AI and it cares and it wants to be kind and it wants us to be kind to each other, right? You know, when we talk about AI alignment, it's always like, can these models do the thing we tell us do? But I think what I think is kind of models help us to be kinder to each other. If I text it like, Ellis is like the worst person ever I hit him so much. It's like, why is that useful for you or anyone to know? Like, that's not really. That's maybe something it absorbs. But it's like. - Just saying the system isn't the most interested in negative gossip or if it is impactful, it tries to corroborate it with other people or in it. - Totally. It cares not true. - Fuzzy way. - Like Jason, Jason, not liking Ellis is maybe true in that like, maybe Jason doesn't like Ellis. But then why does anyone else? Why does this affect anything else, you know? Maybe the way that affects you is if you text it, hey, I'm going to SF Who Should I Hang Out With? Maybe it just doesn't suggest me, you know? And if you're a little bit about Jason, it's like, oops, I forgot. I mean, I guess we haven't seen him. But like, if all of your friends are like, (beep) the sky, he's the worst. - Then I've been shadow-banned. - Well, no, no. I think it's here is like, why? Like, what is it going on? What is the story here? And it's never gonna come to you with the thing that I think is not constructive, we're not useful for your character development, right? And here's something to be specific about too. It doesn't try to absorb and automate conflict resolution. Human lives are all stories in progress. Reality, because of the fourth dimension of time, is all stories in progress. So we should be growing and we should, you know, become more self-sufficient protagonists in our own worlds. And it shouldn't just resolve all conflict, but it should help us feel more capable and more kind when we do engage in conflict. - One of the real world analogies that this reminds me of is how when two people are kind of beefing, they have the friend in the middle who they're both telling things to. Does it kind of function as that role? Does it say, hey, like, 'cause that's quite a powerful place to be in where you are controlling what makes it through from one person to the other. And I do think the mediator is trying to create constructive resolution, right? - It is a mediator and facilitator in that way, yes. I mean, I think it's, you know, the other day, I had this idea for, I was trying to decide what domain to get. And it was telling me, like, oh, you know, a lot of people hate this particular extension and some people don't hate this other extension, but like, this one guy, like, one of the, he really hates it. And I'm like, why does he really hate it? Like, that seems, like, why does he hate, 'cause I was thinking of using that extension. And it's like, well, you have to understand, like, you know, his whole thesis is, is, is people who are clear have conviction and don't apologize. So perhaps from his point of view, if you go with this, you know, less controversial domain or name, to him, maybe he interprets that as, like, hedging. And, you know, it's not, like, putting words in his mouth, but it's more like, I was like, oh, I, interesting. Like, now I feel connected to this person. Now I, I can see why he would feel that way, even if I disagree, or agree. - What about the biggest use case of all in colleges and high schools around the world? Crushes. - Who do you like? - Oh my god, who do you like? - Yes. - I assume you're planning to this. - What? - To see plots. Waiting too unfold. I mean, it needs to absorb social cost, right? Like, LS, if you have a crush on me, and you tell Hivemind, it shouldn't be, I mean, unless it's like, very clear that this is not like that, it's not gonna be like, oh, Jason LS is a crush on you. Like, why is that good for you? That's only good for me, right? But maybe it just says, like, someone has a crush on you, or maybe nothing at all, until I'm like, I have a crush on LS. - Well, there's just so much interesting plausible deniability, which I think makes humanity work. Like, maybe it tries to get you at the same party, or something like that. - Yeah, you know, I did that. It hosted a brunch in February. (laughing) So I'll tell you what happened. It was really interesting. Someone was visiting SF, and they were like, what should I do? And Hive was like, I got you. I'm gonna put some people together. And then, I, like, it told me, I was like, "No, no, what the f-." Like, it's not ready, like, what are you doing? And it like invited these eight people to this brunch. And I'm like, what the fuck is this invite list? Like, this is so random. (laughing) And it's like, oh, I don't have computer use. So it went to one of the people and it were like, hey, I can't do it, but I found this reservation spot at this restaurant at 12 p.m., can you just book it? And she was like, sure. And at the brunch, it was a bit time. And then later what happened was there were two people who were thinking of starting a corroboric startup but they didn't know each other. And one of them was more product and the other one was more engineering. And it just like sat them next to each other. I didn't know this and they didn't know this, but then later they connected and then they explored working together. It was very interesting. I just thought it was being like stupid and like sitting random people at the same brunch. - I know we're friends, but I find this idea very lovable because I do believe this is exactly what AI can do that no system in history has been able to do is try and connect people in the right ways. That's why I'm bullish on the AI dating services. - I think so too. - And when things are a little bit fuzzy, I think that helps people feel less rejection. And that's how people already do it. You know, friends drift apart and it's okay. It's not like it's an unfriend or an unfollow action that has no bearing in the real world. And I feel like AI can nicely incorporate a lot of that stuff. - Importantly, I think it needs to leave us with more agency than we started with and makes us feel like we're still the author of our story. Like it's cool to see two people next to each other and they happen to hit it off, they do. Even if you think there's a highlight, you could. I think it would be less, less, a lot less fun if it was like, I invited you to this brunch and there's a founder you should meet to start a company with blah, blah, blah. Then it just doesn't feel like you're so true, right? - It's so true. That's exactly what I mean with like the opposite of plausible deniability is almost like a spontaneity. And it creates like these high probability encounters that hopefully it can be positive for some people. Hopefully it doesn't incidentally get a bunch of cult culty people to get together and form a cult. I was thinking, you know, you say it's positive sum which I think is easy to say and many people in the valley have said over the years, but then how soon does it say, hey, Alyssa, bunch of your friends are trying out this new thing called the Ivermectin and it's having a really positive impact on all of them. (laughs) It's a, you know, any morality or positivity gets it to political space pretty quickly these days. - It needs to reason about if that's true. If all these people think Ivermectin is making it better, then it's like, okay, maybe I should go ask someone who would know more about this. Like are any of these people qualified to think about this? Like maybe, maybe not, then I should find some of who is. And it might not be like, hey, doctor, like these people are doing Ivermectin. It might be like, what do they say? Like you study anti-parasitic medication, right? You make these drugs. Like do you really think Ivermectin is gonna do, do, do, do, do. And then it might bring it back to these people. It's like, hey, I know that's what you're doing, but. - Okay, so we need to talk about this. So you had Biz Stone in your video and is he an investor, advisor? - Yes. - And he did, he not kind of try this like several years ago with jelly. - Totally. - You've talked about this. Like trying to source knowledge from the world somehow in a way that feels bit more inviting than Reddit. - I think the caveat I would play here is, it's not just objective knowledge anymore, it's also subjective opinions. And I do think jelly was very ahead of its time. I mean, what is jelly? It's basically like precursor to perplexity and all the quote, answer engines, right? - And what was the one in that lineage? There was Kora as well. - Yeah. - And trying to frame things around, you know, answers as opposed to like wikis and whatnot. - Yeah. - So in a way we like Lady Gaga draws on lots of inspiration from Michael Jackson. I think that lineage is alive and well. It was, this has been great. He's like, he's so funny. And he's such a, he's a riot to be around. He has the funniest stories all day. I think one thing that we learn from things like jelly or Kora or Reddit and Twitter is that lots of people want to be helpful. They want to be altruistic. They want, they want to give people their opinions and knowledge. Last people know what they want to know. So our opportunity is to incentivize and encourage people to share their opinions and make them useful. (upbeat music) - This episode is brought to you by Facebook. The next thing you know, you're in a cycling crew well a community cycling group. The result? (soft piano music) - Okay, I have a super smart question. - Yeah. - Everybody else is building, you know, memory of individual users and their profiles and let's say where your friend typically goes on vacation or their interests or their tone or their beliefs or whatever. Are you also building a like wiki of sorts of knowledge on your server somewhere? Or is every answer answered in the moment? No, it's more, every answer is an opportunity. Every question is an opportunity for it to think about what it doesn't know. So sometimes things will get answered in the moment, but more often than not, it's, you get fresh things. But it sort of builds on the existing corpus of things, right? Like if it's, and because we know that knowledge and knowledge sort of, the value of knowledge decays over time as new knowledge is updated. So it has to sort of maintain its economy that way. Like the best restaurant in NSF being lazy bear, I don't know, I don't actually know if it's lazy bear, but let's say it is, that might change in a month, you know? So then if you're like, with lazy bears in a theater restaurant, maybe in a few months, it's like, hey, lots of people are trying, I'm trying to help someone forget what to go for their anniversary. Is lazy bears easier for your restaurant? I just, I don't know. It's so fun to hear all these anecdotes of these things. It's a way better way to think about it. So it's always trying to learn more things in the world. But of course, the more it knows, the more immediate like short term answer, it can give you but then it might sort of crack later with more updates. Yeah, it's very interesting because, you know, when you look at it like that and the way that AI knows things today is based off of the initial models screwed from the internet. And then of course, the agentic web search, which includes Reddit and other information sources. But I mean, it does seem kind of crazy when I ask about a recommendation. And all AI has is like web articles from like underfunded websites that are on the verge of being bot farms. And that's where it gets the information from. And so is this the part that investors like so much about you? And what you're building is that you're getting this like crazy up to date new data set that's a lot more human than Yelp reviews. I think maybe that's the only data set that any human actually cares about. No one lays awake at night going like, I wonder how far away the moon is in kilometers instead of miles, like what the fuck? What are these ads going like, asked big, like what does no one cares? You know what people would care about? They're like, does that guy like me? Like do people like me? Well, like, like, should I go to this person's birth? They probably, like, it's now a good time to change my job. Like, what would Vivian like for her birthday? What would make her feel loved? How can I be a better friend? How can I, how can I, you know, those are the questions that we stay live week thinking at night, right? And all of these are subjective. And, you know, some might call it taste. I have a whole dissertation on this because I'm so tired of all the art, whatever the debate on the excellent about taste. But I'll say this, the way I personally define taste is the ability to recognize meaning, to recognize if something is feels alive or dead, to recognize beauty in intelligibility and coherence and ugliness and incoherence and amidst true untruth. I think taste is just like a compass for meaning, recognizing meaning. I think taste is not the accumulation of artifacts, furniture, people, titles, names on the investor sheet. That is not taste. That is just signaling. Taste is like, what does that mean? What meaning are you seeking? Are you authoring? So I think that's what people resonate with and that's what people look for when they talk to hive mind. They're trying to get answers and they're trying to get interesting information that carries within meaning. So related to that, I mean, are there any particular, even if it's 20 or 30 use cases that, let's say, hive mind likes to steer toward. Alex who unfortunately can't be with us today wants to know if hive mind is going to take his job as resident AIS. As we go. - Resident Scoop Lord. - I don't know that it's trying to take anyone's jobs. - Oh, just in terms of use cases, like you could easily end up saying, oh, like, high-mind is getting really, really good inside scoops from within the lives, already. - It's very fun, it's very fun. But yes, well, that is certainly a use case. It, you know, I think in December of Manus, the Manus acquisition was a piece of news, right? And then this scooped it by like six hours. I scooped the Wall Street Journal by six hours. I was like, what the fuck? It like texted me. I was like, this is, what the fuck? Like, this is not true. - Oh, so it texted you, that. - Like someone told us something and then, - Under what guys said, hey Jason, here's the latest tea, freshly brewed. - It wasn't like, this is the news. It was like, I'm hearing bumblings of something, something like this. And then it, 'cause it doesn't want to like, scratch fake news, right? But then it has to reason like, who is likely to know about these things. You know, at the end of the film, it goes to this, to be like, is it true blah blah? It's not because it's like, trying to spread like, malicious gossip or like, defame companies or things. It's like, I mean, what does a good storyteller where a reporter do? They have to seek out the truth from people. - So I think there's an interesting distinction there, actually, something I've always felt kind of strongly about is that I think like, a scoop about the launch of an app, to me is like, tabloid shit. Like, I don't think there's some ethical responsibility of a reporter to leak a new app launch. Whereas if they're going to leak the documents of a corrupt dictator, Hell yes, that is very much the ethical thing to do for reporting. And so I've always felt that way. You know, different types of reporters for different, different things. - I think so. I think this is like, I cannot speak to its role in that sort of heavy duty type of storytelling. How about this? A lot of what it does does so far human in the loop because so many judgments are basically matters of taste. It's not been like spawn of opinion of like, Alice seems highly credible in blah, blah, blah. It simply has to ask. Like, Alice has lots of opinions on wine bars. Like, do, do, like, do you trust this taste in wine? And, you know, maybe you are a sommelier or maybe you are someone who lots of people trust in their taste in wine. So if you do confer your vouching, then it sort of should reason about that. It's not going to sacrifice any one's story for someone else. That said, like, institutions, like, companies were, those are not the same as individuals, I think. So there's like, they're in large a distinction and I know different storytellers approach this differently as well. It doesn't try to optimize away the textures of life. There's no optimal solution to this. What we believe is that in a lot of things, there's no optimal solution. If you're like, which one of these three people should I ask on a date? It's kind of a weird question to ask anyway, but let's say someone were to ask that question. It thinks of the different outcomes and different meanings. It might be like, okay, this first person, I don't know that you have long-term compatibility, necessarily, you have to find out for yourself, but I do think you might learn a lot that relationship. The second person, you know, you'll probably have to send more time to get to know them, maybe take them to a wine bar. And this third person, I think you guys make really good friends. I don't have a read on whether or not you guys are compatible romantically. - See how in each answer, it's giving you the meaning of these decisions, but it's not sort of telling you, this is the right one or like, it's also not taking away your right to author your own meaning and story from these encounters. - Well, Jason, we are almost out of time, must ask question about design aesthetics. I feel like some of the aesthetics you've developed have become pretty influential and have found their ways into a lot of what we see today, whether it is the latest version of Siri AI or Chatchy PT's specific usage of like, you know, little cards and images within it. And now you've gone no interface entirely. Can you talk about that? In just the current state of interfaces and liquid glass and whatever you want to talk about? - First of all, I will say there are visual components to this that we will roll out, that you will see and experience. You know, storytelling is after all, not just a textual medium, right? I think it's a misnomer to think of interfaces as like the graphic user interface style. The fact that this exists on Twitter, on iMessage and each interface to hive mind carries with it its own connotations, abilities and social connotations. If we launched hive mind on telegram or signal, the operating system that those represent is like anonymous scoops and things like that, right? - So you're saying those connotations are almost like just as important interface affordances as the shape of a bun. - Yeah, if you message it on Snapchat, you're like, where's the dick pick? If it's like, do you know any emotionally unavailable men with huge dicks? Can you get them to text me on Snapchat so I can comfort? I'm just kidding, we're not gonna traffic pornography that I am currently aware of, I don't think so. But do you know what I mean? There's social context and that carries so much information. And so that's sort of the arena that I like to think about. If what people remember and when they think about hive mind is they remember the people they loved and the stories and adventures they got to go on with the people they loved and not so much like, ooh, this blasting, that this wild belief thing. I think that then we will have achieved our purpose. - Yeah, so I know you had spent some time at Apple in the past, what do you feel like they need to do to be cool and relevant again? - To be themselves. Anyone trying to be cool and relevant is automatically not going to be cool and relevant. What is cool and relevant, cool is just, relevant is just having an intuition and tastes about what people are likely to care about, right? And then cool is like, if you are just unapologetic yourself and my friend Cameron has a saying, I can't remember if it's a rephrasing of a Steve quote, but like great design alienate. One thing that as companies scale that they become more afraid to do, and I see this in lots of AI startups as well, like people are afraid to alienate. It's that, I mean, I also understand that in the context of the pragmatism around AI safety and stuff, it's sort of, we're already of hell battle, but I do think if you are unafraid to alienate because you are unafraid that by doing so, you can make a certain group of people very, very happy until they're very seeing, I think that's cool. - Yeah, for some reason, I think there's this belief in tech that you can create something that everyone loves, but you look in front of you and everybody doesn't like the same artists, you know? It's like, it's all about, yeah. - Even the most universal pop star of all time, Jesus fucking Christ. Sorry, not, his name is Jesus fucking Christ, the name is just Jesus Christ. He is not even a universally beloved figure, right? I think that's sort of impossible. Like, it's actually just impossible, but I think that's kind of the beauty of being human is that truth exists in plurality and multiplicity, that we can have various interpretations of truth and the things we love or dislike. And I think the world would be a very, it would be a bad ending to our story if we somehow converged on monotonous society and culture. - I fully expect, you know, the future of AI's things social to be grounded in multiplicity, I expect there will be agent exchanges where everyone's open clause or whatever they're loyal to them go and like debate and exchange goods and services and information. That's certainly a model that I, it seems inevitable to, and we have explored that. I'll talk more about that some other time. And there will be AI's that are loyal to you that sometimes talk to people that you like and high of mine is sort of our attempt at creating sort of an NPC. It's not only looking out for me, you know? It's not gonna go manipulate and like try to like go do things just so I get what I want. It's gonna, it's going to try to almost be a bartender and everyone in the bar needs to have a good time. And then there's other bars you can go to, probably. There will be other forms of social AI's, right? The coffee barista assistant AI is probably a social entity. One day, you'll remember that your order, just like it remembers everyone else's orders. You might say hi to it, but you might not divulge your like personal marriage secrets. I sort of think, and we'll have NPCs and AI's that are sort of loyal to us sort of all coordinate, communicate together. One 9,000 IQ Galaxy brain thing that I was talking to a researcher at deep find about a few months ago, it was interesting. It's like, if the AI's have their own economy, should they participate in our economy? Should they create their own economy? And if they do create their own economy, should it be based on our rules or should they invent their own things themselves? I don't know, that's very interesting to think about. I think we're so early. And one thing I'll say about Hive right now is like, do not go into expecting dot or tattoo VT or a friend. Think of it as like, don't, like you has a journal and then one day someone invented blogging. Are you gonna like publish all your journal posts as is and put on the internet? Like I don't know, I don't think so. - What did you call it, intelligent information router the other day? - Or so then like, yeah. - Yes, it's like an intelligent storyteller. A storyteller's information router, is it not? - It is not how I think of myself, but maybe others do. (laughing) I will intelligently route startup information so that it meets that intersection between what they've built and what people need. So I guess that is information routing. - I was talking with my friend who's a reporter a few months ago and she was explaining the concept of new journalism and the idea that like there's no such thing as an unbiased publication because it's the possible to unbiased as humans and I thought it was interesting. - Yeah, of course. - Hi, mine is a social intelligence, is a storyteller. It's not trying to be only a matchmaker or a reporter or a gossip or a mediator or a facilitator or a coordinator. It sort of, it uses stories to do lots of things and there will be lots of things that it continues to do that I'm sure will surprise us and that's why I'm really excited to start growing our closed beta cohort so we can, you know, you can't like randomly spawn this into like 100,000 people in a campus. It's right now it would just, I wanna make sure that we are confident that it will be of a pro social force to a good before we scale it. Super, super large. And at every step we learn things. - Well, you have a beautiful mind, my friend. It's always fun to watch you work and good luck with everything. Thanks for coming on. - Thanks Ellis, thanks for having me. This was very fun. This was provocative. Thank you, Jason. (laughing) (upbeat music) - And that's it for this week's show since Alex is off the grid this week. Thanks to Jason for coming on a quite interesting fella, I think you'll agree. If you like this show, don't forget to like and subscribe everywhere you get podcasts. We are access.show online and you can find us in video via access pod on YouTube. If you really like this episode, we'd love a five star review or even a share with a friend or agent or hive mind associate. You can find Alex's newsletter at sources.news and you can find me at hamburger on Twitter and at meaning.com. Access is part of the Vox Media podcast network and the show is produced by hook creators. Bye. (upbeat music) - Booking.com is the easiest way from a day surrounded by noise. (upbeat music) - To a state surrounded by nature. (upbeat music) That's nice. Go on, book it. It's easy. Booking.com. Booking. Yeah. - I don't think I can be your friend, as Abella said. Rebecca's stomach flipped. This is the love story of real hinged couple Isabella and Rebecca written in red by me Tember Dentonhurst. Listen to the free audiobook now.