“They were real macks”: How the Ward Brothers inspired a cult classic

Hi everybody, Liam here. Just a little content warning. This episode contains adult language and adult themes related to sex work and drug use. Just want to give your heads up. Okay, on with the show. You're listening to East Bay yesterday. This show is about history, but it's not stuck in the past. I remember a pimple is only as good as his product. See, and his product is women. Now you got to go out there and you got to get the best ones you can find. And you've got to work them broads like nobody has ever worked them before. I never forget. Anybody can control a woman's body. See, but the key is to control a mind. You see, pepperants big business. And it's been going on since the beginning of time. And it's going to continue straight ahead. So somebody up there turns out the lights on this small planet. Can you dig it? Yeah, yeah, I can dig it, yeah. Better. That clip is from the 1972 cult classic The Mac. Even though the Mac gets lumped in with a lot of the so-called black exploitation films of that era, I don't think that's quite fair. Movies like Shaft and Dolomite were action thrillers, sometimes bordering on cartoonish. The Mac feels more like a documentary. And that was intentional. The director came from a documentary background and he wanted the Mac to be as realistic as possible. So they shot on location and real barber shops and pool halls and speakeasies in Oakland. The extras weren't professionals. They were real people. Richard Pryor, who helped write the script, he grew up in a brothel and he brought that experience into the dialogue. Several of the most infamous scenes, like the part where a thief is locked in a trunkful of rats, or the part where a pimp is forced to stab himself. Those were based on real incidents. But more than anything else, the main reason why the Mac feels so authentic is because of the ward brothers. They were a family who dominated Oakland's underground sex economy from the mid-1960s until the early 70s. In other words, they were the biggest pimps in the game. Their clothes and cars were in the film. They were in the film. But most important of all, the main character in the Mac, a pimp named Goldie, was based on the leader of the ward brothers. Frank. Everything began and ended with Frank. Frank was Goldie. Frank was the picture. I mean, he was, in my mind, the heart and soul of what we were doing. That clip was from an interview with the film's director, Michael Campus, from a 2003 documentary called Mac & Ane Easy. The Mac was an indie flick with a shoestring budget, but it gained a huge following right off the bat. It even made more money than the godfather in some cities during its initial run in theaters. But I think the main reason why it's still so famous is because it's been sampled and referenced in dozens and dozens of rap hits. Too short, Snoop Dogg and Outcast are just a few of the artists who've incorporated language and themes from the film in the songs. If you only knew the Mac through these samples and shoutouts, you might think that the film is an unabashed celebration of the pimp game. It's not. Behind all the flamboyant clothes and customized cars, it's a cautionary tale. But it's not a simple fable about right and wrong, good versus evil. One of the conflicts at the heart of the story is between Goldie and his brother, a black activist character modeled after Huey Newton. Here's what happens when his brother, the activist, tries to get Goldie to quit Pimpin. I gotta write to live my life the way I wanna live here. Being rich in black means something man, don't you know that? Being poor in black don't mean shit. We're living in different times when you and I were young kids. I mean there were no heroes. We got all sorts of heroes now. But they're the kids out there who look up to me man. Man, can't you see you? That's just teaching black kids to exploit their own kind and that's sick. Well it's not sick man, it's sick when you got a chance to get out of a rat infested ghetto and you don't. Oh wow, then you really lost your love for the brothers all together then haven't you? I mean don't be driving that brotherly love shit on me man. There's been a lot written about the Mac, books, articles, even academic papers. But not very much has been written about the men who inspired the film, the Ward Brothers. It was mostly just rumors and hearsay out there until recently. A few months ago, Chloe Silver's, an Oakland native, published the first book to dig into the real story of the Ward Brothers, to separate facts from myths. Chloe interviewed Willie, the last surviving brother, shortly before he passed away in 2019. She interviewed the Ward's closest associates, men like Governor and Boss. She talked to the Ward's kids, she talked to the stars of the Mac, Max Julian and Carol Speed, who also both just passed away recently. And most importantly, she talked to the women, the wives and girlfriends, and yes, the sex workers. Some of the women played all three roles and they weren't shy about sharing their happy memories and their bitter sorrows. Even though the book is called the Fabulous Ward Brothers, it doesn't ignore the brutal realities and the tragic side of the so-called game. Here's Chloe Silver's. Before this book was written, it was all about the Ward Brothers, the Ward Brothers. They were Max, they were Pants, they had all these fabulous cars, it was glamorized. You know, Frank had the elephant skin on his elephant skin on their car. I mean, think about it, you know, but he had that, he had like the baddest car ever and custom made clothes, the players' convention. I think they were known for all of that. And of course, the Mac, the movie the Mac and all this stuff and Mink suits and they were like idolized. And I think after, and I think now hopefully this book will see him as not idolized for pimping and glorification, but see him as human beings. And yes, they did do all these things, but there was a price to pay. They wouldn't just pimps, they had families and you know, the murders and not just Frank, Blanche was murdered and Leon Wagner was beat up, pistol whip, his wife was shot. This book is more than just pimping. It's about closure, redemption. This year, 2022 is the 50th anniversary of Frank Ward's death. If you poke around on the internet, the most common theory you'll find is that Frank and his "bottom woman" Blanche Bernard were assassinated by the Black Panthers over a dispute involving the production of the Mac. According to Chloe Silver's "nothing about that theory" is accurate. And she'll explain why in this episode. Today, on East Bay yesterday, you'll be hearing about the real story of the Ward Brothers. And just a quick note that you'll also be hearing a few more clips from the Mac and the Mac and Ain't Easy documentary sprinkled throughout our Q&A. I'm your host, Liam O'Donohue. Stay tuned. So let's get into the story of the Ward Brothers. And let's start from the beginning where you start the book because they weren't originally from Oakland. Can you tell me a little bit about like where they grew up and their family history? The Ward Brothers were from Alabama. Their parents were sharecroppers. They grew up like most Black Americans in the South, farming and the boys having to quit school early to help with the sharecropping. You know, they grew up poor, but not poor in spirit, poor money wise. Right. Like they literally didn't have shoes until like I think you said they weren't sixth grade or something like that. Some of them. Right. They just grew up using what was available to them. But they attended Chercherry Sunday. with their mother. There were a normal happy family. I think all of them went to school up probably till elementary and Ted Ward may have done middle school, maybe seventh grade, but I know Frank, he went to Fowler High in California. He came out to California actually to live with his aunt. And he, think went up to the eleventh grade, but they were good, honest, decent people from Alabama. Yeah. And the first brother to leave Alabama was the oldest brother, Drew. Can you tell me about his trajectory a little bit after leaving Alabama because he was also the first brother to get into pimping? And he kind of learned that into trite, right? From some of the famous pimps of that era, people like iceberg slam. Right. Andrew, better known as Drew. He was born 1921. And then you have the other brothers, Charles was born, I believe in 31, then you have Wally and 38, Frank and 40 and Ted and 42. So he was literally old enough to be Wally Ted and Frank's father 'cause he has children. He had children their age, still have children, their age. And he married and had children and him and his wife, they moved to Michigan and they started a life there. And somewhere along the line, he no longer was Andrew, he became Drew. And he lived a life where he was hanging out and he learned he was a poor shark, he learned the streets and so when him and his wife separated, she went back to Alabama and he continued on. Now there was a tie frame where no one knew where he was. He could have been in jail or he could have been anywhere, no one knew where he was. But then years later, he went to New York and he had a brother feel. And so he went to New York and got feel and they ended up in Los Angeles. That's where Drew Macon truly began. - And within a few years of moving to Los Angeles, they left though and they came up here to Northern California, specifically Oakland and the East Bay. Do you know what drew them up here? What attracted them to Oakland? - Well, before Oakland, they ended up in LA, 'cause Andrew was out there and he was the leader and they trusted him. Especially since Andrew literally went from the cotton fields to owning property, driving, Cadillac and not just pimping because before, Andrew, he traveled and he saw that people were out there selling things on the streets and making money. So he took that and hey, I could be a salesman. So he went and he bought items and he couldn't sell it on the streets. So he put in his car and he traveled around to see it. - It was mostly jewelry, right? - It was jury and from understanding clothes at that time too, feel was there with him. So feel and Andrew, they traveled and then they met Nora or Judy, 'cause a lot of the women had two different, they used to do alias. And Andrew, feel and Nora, they traveled around. And Nora was really highly intelligent and Andrew sent her to real estate school and they actually had a vast whole real estate property where they owned the pool hall, restaurant, from understanding a motel, they owned a couple of homes. So Andrew really established himself as a businessman and this is before he really started pimping hard. So when they'd wore brothers and their family came to visit LA, they saw all that Andrew had acquired. And it wasn't by selling drugs or being a gangster with a gun in his hand, it was all in his mind. And you have to remember, Andrew had, I believe, a third grade education maybe. And so when his brothers came up, they worked. They worked at furniture companies, they worked, but then they saw the money Andrew was making. So Andrew hipped them onto the game and they will buy the jury, right? Because Slum jury are Andrew, show them how to sell it, how to package, well, it came package up from my understanding, but how to proceed and how to sell it. And that's where the war brothers began, for us the brothers, not Andrew, but for us the brothers. That's kind of how they started building their empire. Exactly, selling Slum jury. It's unclear exactly how much illegal activity was mixed in withdrew wards, growing business portfolio. But according to Chloe Silver's, the wards decided to leave Los Angeles in 1964 because things were getting too hot. The law was on their backs. Time to skip town and switch up the hustle. Instead of selling cheap jewelry, the new business strategy would be built around selling sacks. And the streets of Oakland would be their base of operations, specifically 7th Street. Here's how Chloe describes the 7th Street track in her book. The main whole straw was in West Oakland on 7th Street. If a person was looking for action, they would go there because that was the whole straw before the California hotel in West MacArthur Boulevard. 7th Street was the place to be because it was happening like a downtown with all types of people walking around. It was wide open like the Las Vegas strip. There were so many people walking around at night that the sidewalks were full. Any and everything that a person wanted was there. They had the drugs, hot clothes, hot pussy, and hot ass for sale. All kinds of men will come on 7th Street looking for dates. There were doctors, lawyers, teachers, construction workers, military men, and regular tricks. The tenants of the Victorian homes were rent out rooms past trick paths at $2 per shot. Perry's shoe-shying store had a back room that was rented out to turn tricks in. There were fish fries, hotel rooms, and gambling joints. Jenkins, BBQ, Esther, orbit room, life pool hall, wolf records, and the 49ers liquor store. Across the street at the 76th gas station was where the pimps often gathered while keeping an eye out on their holes. There was a food joint owned by Johnny Singer and every weekend somebody would get shot in there. There was Robert Dixon's speak easy, gentleman's quarters. 7th Street was live and jumping because that's where the action was. Always fast, faster, and fastest. Boss said, "I was 16 years old and was hustling the meat cone on 7th Street when I saw a pimped named Buddy Brazil. I showed him the coat, he held the coat up, then looked across the street at his home, he held out to her, "Hey, baby, is this sweet?" She nodded her hair, "Yes." And then he bought the coat, that was 7th Street. - Let's talk a little bit about the brother sort of getting into the game. They started by turning out there some of their girlfriends, right? Or wives even. - Well, girlfriend. - Yeah, girlfriend. So can you tell me about that process of, you describe, you know, the brothers would have different size stables of women that they were pimping. How do you go about building a stable? Or how did they go about it? - Okay. Women came to them. And from all the interviews that I have done, what people, they all said, it was something special about the war brothers. They came in on 7th Street with their women. They came in with a different style of dressing. They all had callexes, callexes, that was the thing back then. And it was five brothers, not friends, not cousins, but they were actually blood brothers. And the women came to them. They're, you know, they're charm and swag. One of the day I interviewed, she said, being within was like being in a movie. It was just glamorous. And I'm not glamorizing pimping, but it was just something about the war brothers. They had a aura that attracted men and women to them. - In the book, you describe a lot of different rules of the game. And one of the rules, one of the codes is this concept of choosing. And so that is kind of what you're referring to about the women coming to the brothers. Can you explain that process? What does choosing mean in the pimping game? - When a woman leaves her, her pimped and chooses to be with another, another pimped. So basically it's a gentleman's agreement. I think the way I laid out in a book, your whole came and she chose me. So therefore there's no need to argue a fight. You know, shake hands and move on. Like that's what's missing today, from my understanding in the pimping game, are just in life period. You know, you win some, you lose some, shake hands and you move on. (upbeat music) is everyone needed. in audition to get with you. You ain't got to go through all that shit. Then I choose you. Be cool, baby. OK? Hey, bitch, come here. Got your mother fucking man, come here. Mr. Preditoni, I mean, you know the rules of the game. I mean, your bitch just chose me. Now, we can settle this like you got some clairs, so we can get into some gangster shit. [MUSIC PLAYING] This is your first book, and you ended up tracking down so many people who were there, who knew these stories firsthand. How did you go about finding people and was it difficult to get people to share these very personal stories with you? Well, I did come in contact with Willie Ward. He was the last living Ward brothers, you know, in this five brothers that I wrote about. And he did give me permission to write the book. And we were talking about Frank's murder. And he mentioned to me, Ronnie Armstrong. He kept saying, well, he was, you know, told me the story. And he was the last person to see Frank besides Bland who obviously was murdered with him. And I kept saying, well, who is he? Who is he? And so he just told me where he worked at. And I actually tracked down. I went to boss, Ronnie Armstrong, his boss. I went to his job. Because first I wrote the job and was letting him know who I was. I didn't get a response, but I knew I was going to Disney land. So actually, you drove out to his job, Avis, Renekar. He wasn't there. But I went to the counter. I went ex-bus drivers. You know this guy. You know this guy. And one person said, yeah, I know him. I know him. And I got a couple of that. I left my number with a couple of people. And within a week, he called me back. So once I got in contact with boss, he was the one who opened the doors to all the other guys. Right. Because he wasn't one of the brothers, but he was tight with them. He was part of their crew. Well, yes. He was Frank Wars protégé. He was young. When Frank Diabélie boss was 20, maybe 21. And Jean, I knew from research that she was his wife. And she didn't want to do it at first. So I was like, OK, I'll get the story going. And I'm going to pray. And I might have to go knocking on her door. She might not answer the door, but I'm going to knock on her door. And her grandson actually-- I wrote her a letter. And so her grandson encouraged Maurice. He encouraged me to encourage her to contact me. And she reached out to me. So once I got Jean and boss and everyone else who they pulled in, they did help a lot. And boss, they believed in this story being told. And I think it brought closure to them as well. Especially because boss was there when Frank was murdered. Frank told him, go in. I'll be back. I'll be in in a few minutes. And Frank never came back. And Jean was with them from the beginning to the end. And she just died last September. May she rest in peace. And so she just broke everything down to me. And not just for him, because she worked the street. She was one in first woman in Oakland on the streets. So she just broke it down to me. She had no shame in her gang. I'm also wondering about the challenges that you face dealing with controversial subject matter. Of course, things like the flashy cars and the clothes and the money. That's all fun. But then there's also these issues of violence against women, for example, or exploitation. So as a writer, how do you approach those topics? Are you worried about injecting your own morality or ethics onto someone else's story? How do you balance out the fact that these people are trusting you? But they're also saying things that might be offensive to a lot of people. Well, as a writer, it was very important for me to be objective. And the women, whatever they share with me, that's their truth. So my job was to report their truth. Not how I felt about it. It's a story in Oakland, as you know, it's full of stories. And we might write the good side of someone. And we may never hear the back side, the back story. And trust me, people back story, some of them are just as grittiest this one. But they hide it. But these people, this group of fine people who I interview, they opened up and they were honest. And I didn't inject my personal emotions. Yeah, I mean, it sounds difficult. How has the response been from the people that you interviewed? Have they read the book yet? Have they gotten back to you about how they feel about it? You know what, the response has been awesome because everybody really wants to know about the war brothers. Yeah. Who were these guys? Well, I think that's the thing. There's so much sort of mythology around them. Frank has been dead for almost 50 years now. And a lot of people in Oakland are still familiar with his name as this sort of icon of pimping culture, which to this day still has a huge presence in Oakland and the Bay. I think you do a really good job in the book of sort of explaining a lot of pim culture. For example, people might assume, oh, the flashy style, the flamboyant clothes are just because they got swag. They want to look good. But it's actually to be more attractive to women. So it's sort of like personal branding or marketing. Same thing with the cars. There's like a reason. There's a science behind all these different kind of mannerisms. That code, which is the symbol of the picture, the symbol of gold, they really is a reflection of Frank and the wards and that world. Those are the real guys. They're women. They're cars. They're dress. They're life. I'm going to be the meanest man could ever live. I mean, they're going to be talking about gold, they're like they used to talk about Jesus. Hey, man. I mean, they're going to have to rewrite the Mac and game book, baby. You know, because I'm going to be the new king. Well, I'm going to be so cool, buddy, baby. They're going to have to change their name with a game. You know? And I'm going to get the hottest bitches I can find with our whole boat load of money and then I'm going to get myself some fine looking vines and a great looking ride. And then I'm just going to stir it all up. [LAUGHTER] So I was, I was, I was, I was coming at it. Coming at it, I am. You've mentioned this a couple times about how they came to Oakland and kind of changed the game. So can you expand on that a little bit? Like, how are they doing things different than anyone that had been here before them? Right. I got this from a couple of people and actually, like I said, governor, you know, he's in his 90s. He's probably the oldest person that I interviewed. And he grew up in West Oakland. So he done saw seven street from neither one gave me the names of these old pimps. And he said, Chloe, there's a lot of holes on seven street. And he said a lot of whole, a lot of old ones. He said, but the war brothers came. They bought young women, a lot of young women and put them on the streets. And they came and they just came into Oakland, put their own style and not just pimping. They had the boosting game down. So it wasn't just like, you can explain what that is for like, cause it was a whole operation. Right. Exactly. It was a, they were described to me as an enterprise within themselves. It wasn't like they were just pimping and depending on this one woman or two or three women and that's all they did. They had a operation where they had hookers. They had boosters. They had women who ran paper, who hung paper, a ramp paper, which could be money, I guess forged money orders or checks. They had a whole operation, a whole system down where all their women were not just working the streets. They had women who had game and doing other things. Like they would like train women or women, they would find women who knew how to shop lift and then get those women to train other women and like send them around the country to go to like high end department stores to steal for coats and things like that, right? Well, what happened was it was two women and these women were with a group of men from LA called the Magnificent Seven. So they had the boosting game so laid out to where they didn't go to dressing room and steal it, take off tags and stuff it somewhere. Why they were actually speaking to the sales clerk, they will be on the other side of the rack and they'll be taking the clothes and stuffing it up their dress. So by time the conversation stopped, they'll walk out and they wouldn't even notice the item was missing because they took the hanger too. And that comes back to the gentleman's agreement because the guy who deen and Yvonne, Yvonne was with Frank and Dean was with Ted. They had the same Pimp or the same guy, they were working for it, they were sisters in the stable. And so the guy was really upset because you know, Frank and Ted got their, his women, his women, his boosters. So they, Frank and Ted had the women call him and say they were okay, they were going down here to get their stuff. So Frank and Ted took them down here to get their things and to let them know the girls leave involuntary. They're not being held hostage. and so that came down to a gentleman's agreement, okay? Well, they want to go. They could go. And nothing, you know, was no war or confusion. So getting back to the boost in part now, they had Yvonne and Dean. And Yvonne and Dean, what they would do, they took this kind of like from movie to Mac, they would actually practice for months before they actually went out. They'll have to walk with things between their legs and go up the stairs, go down the elevator and they have to practice on boost then. Notice the hooks. Now you grab the garment from the inside and bring it out and place it neatly on the hook. Close your coat and get stuck. The wards also in addition to kind of running these different sort of criminal or illegal operations, they also had some legitimate businesses, like some clothing stores and shoe stores that they owned and operated throughout the Bay Area. Was that to like laundromoney? Or do you know why they ended up opening real like legitimate businesses as well? Were they planning on transitioning out of, you know, pimping and things like that? Right. Well, in the beginning of the interview we talked about Andrew having all these businesses, the pool hall to cafe and property. So Andrew was a businessman. He had limited education, but he had limited education. I educated his mind to expand, you know, that this is what I would like to do. And the other brothers, they, what they did see all this. So that was their thing like Frank had house of gators. And that's what his business. I don't think he laundered money. I don't know. So I wasn't told that he laundered money in there. And then you had Ted, they had a clothing store. Now, for my understanding, that clothing store was where people bought things in. They were boosted. And I guess it was re-tagged and sold. But, you know, he was business minded. You know, they had homes in their names. It was generally really in their names, not in their mother name, sister name. And so they had, they had smarts about themselves. And they were going places, which we will talk about later. Mm-hmm, definitely. Well, speaking of going places, they operated outside of the Bay Area as well. I was surprised to learn that they had girls working for them as far away as Alaska. Like when the oil pipeline was being built up there, and there was these villages of all these men with money to burn. They saw that as an opportunity to run an operation there. And like Frank even shipped his Cadillac up to Alaska. And he said when he got there, people thought they were the Supremes. Yeah. Well, Gene told me that. Because, you know, they wore the big wigs, and they were all dressed glamour. And Gene said when they were at the airport, people thought, and that's Gene is test-wide. And they thought that they were Supremes. He said they were telling, "Oh, you could tell us we won't tell nobody." Because, you know, Supremes wore big wigs, and they were, you know, dressed, and they, you know, say the whole Motown thing. So they thought that they were Supremes. And yeah, Frank, everybody else, when they got there, they rented hooptees and to get around, could they were going to stay there for a season. And they said Frank had his car shipped out there. I guess, you know, he was Frank Ward. ♪ I'm the name of love before you raise my heart ♪ One of the things that the, the, the Pimp culture is most well known for is something that the War Brothers participated in. And I'm talking about like a player's ball, the player's conventions. And you go into great detail in the book of describing these functions. This is another thing that's sort of been mythologized in the Mac and other movies since then. But what were the real players conventions like? How did it go down here in Oakland? Where was it? What were the festivities like? Break it down. I believe that it was held at the showcase. The Barksdale. Yeah, famous NBA All Star. Exactly. Businessman, entrepreneur, radio personality, we go on about Mr. Barksdale. He owns the, was it the sportsman? I think, yeah, those two clubs, the showcase in the sportsman. Right. And Donald Warden, lawyer, attorney. I've got a whole episode about him and the Afro-American Association. Right. So you get Donald Warden, Donald Barksdale, oh, Jay Payton. And you get them together with the War Brothers. And you know, they know they pence. But like I said, everybody loved the War Brothers. So they got together and they wanted to do a player's convention. It wasn't the player's ball, the player's convention. So they had two before the movie, the movie would have been the third one. And so the player's convention was just to get all the players together and socialize. And this have a good time. And this recognize what's going on. And their, their click or their community, the streets. And that don't mean Donald, Donald Barksdale and Jay Payton were street. But they were all really apart. The War Brothers, they all were part of Oakland. And so you know, everybody got dressed up and it was just basically having a good time. And from my understanding, the second player's convention was when Ted Ward came in the Minksuit, the Minkane, the Mink-Ary thing. And he got best dress and Frank got pimped for the year or player of the year. But it was definitely the player's convention. And then by the time it got to the movie, they called it the player's club. I mean the players, I'm sorry the players ball. And if people knew the War Brothers were going to be there, they were showing up. If you look at the scene that the players ball, you're saying, "God, there were all those players." That's not a set. Those are the tables, those are the walls, those are the people. That's the feel that it works because there's a truth to it. Because the costumes, the clothing is what people will wear. Going from clothing to cars. You have to have the best ride. That was the real car. That was Ted's car, incident one of the War Brothers cars. They had a shop in Beverly Hills that were copying that pimple wheel and selling it to people in Beverly Hills. Cars, clothing, every piece of this fabric is intertwined. This is the truth. This is real. One thing that is kind of amazing is how famous the War Brothers got during the sort of height of their involvement in the game. They weren't just known in the streets. Media would come and cover some of their events like these players conventions. There were photos of them in national magazines. Even you mention how once they went to a A's game and they said, "Welcome to the War Brothers." On the Coliseums scoreboard. So if they're so well known in the public's eye, the media, everyone knows who they are, what they're doing. How did they avoid going to jail? Because what they were doing in a lot of cases was not legal. Well, prostitution back then was a misdemeanor. It wasn't a felony. I'm not sure, but I believe pimpen wasn't a felony either. I'm not sure about the pimpen by no prostitution. And Willie Ward told me they mainly stuck with misdemeanors, not felonies. And you are correct about them being so well known. When they went to the ALI, 71, to the ALI phrase, what a phrase, the ALI fight, the first one. I mean, you have Frank Lucas, you know, Dins and Washington did his movie. You have all these other people there who were like in New York. New York King Pins, Barbara Streisand, you got, I mean, all these celebrities out there, Frank Sinatra. They're here coming to War Brothers with their loud yellow suits with the black, brown, black and yellow matching shoes and hat. But the thing is this, all these movie stars, of course, they have pictures of all of them in these magazines. But all the movie stars, of course, names were listed. But Frank and Ted Ward, name was listed along with the movie stars, it's a Frank and Ted Ward. You can look in the Ebony, Chad, We Magazine, because it was big coverage, of course. You know, that's Muhammad Ali. And you're like, wow, wouldn't make them stick out that a person will put their name along with movie stars name. No one else's names. So they were just that popular and Reggie Jackson, when they got the new electronic scoreboard, I was Reggie Jackson's doing, because him and Frank, they were, you know, they were best buddies. But they could have said, no, we're not going to put no pimps up there, you know. We're not going to do that, because you know, Oakland A's, that's a legit. They have a league and everything. But they allowed that to happen. You know, these brothers were obviously something special, but they were human as well. I wanted to add that. They were human. They had families, they cared about brothers and sisters and mother and father. But don't get it wrong. They were, they were pimps, they were cold blooded pimps. But it was another side to them. If you got to my understanding, you got to know them. They were caring. They didn't, you know, encourage their kids to do good, do well, you know, go to the best schools. the best schools, but they were pimps. - Yeah, yeah. - Yeah. - Like Pantson. - Well, one of the things that also I think is really fascinating is how, well, you write this in the book, how they were basically, you know, running the game in the streets of Oakland, and there's competition, there's other people doing things out there, but you say the war brothers were not violent. They weren't shooting people, they didn't carry guns, and they weren't dealing drugs either, which also kind of separated them from, I think, later generations. So how were they able to kind of, you know, run the streets on just charisma when there's so much competition out there, and it is a violent world in the streets of Oakland. - It is, and I think that had to do with the gentleman's agreement, and it was fate now. One of the ladies had told me that Frank had mentioned to her that, you know, he was moving away from the life, the gentleman's agreement, everything is leaving, and he wanted to basically, well, he was actually evolving, getting away from pimping in that life. Now later on, after Frank died, it may have been some drug dealing, and I didn't go into that, 'cause there was really about writing the era of, you know. - Right, this like late '60s, early '70s, kind of height. - Exactly. - And they were partying though. I mean, you write about how, you know, people walk around those little gold spoons on the chain, - Oh yeah, oh yeah. - It was a little bit of the disco dust. - They did not sell drugs, but they were connoisseurs of drugs. Now that's different, but everybody, not everybody, but an entertainment world at fast life, drugs, alcohol, all that stuff is there. And they were connoisseurs of it. No one held back on the fact that, yeah, they snorted cocaine, cocaine was the drug, and smoked weed. But, you know, even some of the famous people who we mentioned earlier used to go to Frank House, and they were talking to us in the ward, and smoke weed went up. - Yeah, yeah. (laughs) (upbeat music) - The word brothers were, four brothers, black brothers, who really ran underground open. In a way, I think they really ran open. When I met Frank Ward, then I knew it was a picture had to be made. I mean, Frank Ward changed my life. And I think changed all my lives in many ways. - Frank Ward! (audience cheering) - He was a marvelous guy. He could have done anything he wanted. - If he walked in here right now, you'd have to like him. He was his great strappling, beautiful looking cat, and you could feel his power. But he was a criminal, a serious criminal. (drum roll) - I think one of the reasons why the name of the word brothers is still so well-known, not only in Oakland, but really across the world, is because probably the defining movie about the Pip Game, the one that influenced everything else that came after that, was the Mac. So can you explain to me the origins of this film, the Mac, and how the word brothers ended up getting connected with it? - For my understanding, Robert Poo, Bobby Poo, who wrote the treatment, I don't know if he grew up in San Francisco, but he had a sister who lived in San Francisco, who knew Willie Ward's woman. And I guess she used to talk about the word brothers. And so when he wrote the treatment, why, 'cause he-- - He wrote it on toilet paper in prison, right? - That's what they said, he did. - That's the legend, yeah. - Right, and I think Saint Quentin, they had a program for the prisoners, where it's a theater program to write and to produce and do things in theater. So he wrote it based on what he was hearing about the word brothers. He didn't know him, this is what he was hearing. And when Willie was telling me that he was getting his sister to call his woman, so he could Willie on a phone. And Willie said that he didn't know him. And he was like, no, I'm not talking to him. He could try to set me up. So after, it was a while, and one day Willie decided to speak with him. And he explained to Willie what he was doing. Now, he needed the word brothers, because for my research, he had gotten this treatment to Bernhard, Harvey Bernhard, who was the producer. And Bernhard had his own company. And so he kind of, you know, was interested to him, 'cause the 70s were a lot of black quotation movies. So it was interesting to him. But he told Bobby Poole, he was only going to take interest in it if he could find out who these war brothers were. - Right, they wanted the movie to be as realistic as possible. - Right. And he wanted to see what he was talking about. So that's where he came in to contact them. So once he contacted the Willie, and then they set it up where they could, well, he was in prison when he first contacted Willie. So when he got out, he set it up. And he met with Willie and they, Willie talked to the other brothers, and they got together with the producer and director. And they all met. So the war brothers agreed to it. And-- - And they were basically agreeing to be like consultants, help even like inform the script. And also they allowed some of their clothes and cars to be used in the filming, right? - Exactly. And they had to write people, 'cause Richard Pire has, we know, his mother worked in a brothel, a whole house. And his father was a, it was a pimp. So Richard Pire came in and that was, you know, so he to rewrite, well, yeah, to write the script and Max Julian. And Max Julian had came off of Cleopatra Jones. So he was already writing scripts. - And Max Julian ended up playing Goldie, the main character, the Pimp of the Year. And that, he based a lot of that character on his interactions with Frank, right? - Exactly, 'cause that's what that was their job. 'Cause they basically came with nothing. I think they said, "Diner cards?" And they basically came with nothing but this idea of making a movie, which they did. And they didn't have a budget for the cars and the clothes. So they-- - But they wanted to film it like in the streets, like on location and Oakland, right? That was their idea to make it really like a movie that was in the game. Like it's tightly as possible. - Right, and my campus had the background of being a documentary. This was his first film. So that's why you get that realness, 'cause he's a documentary filmmaker. And my campus, right, they wanted to get it real. So my campus hung out with them. He of course, Richard Prior did. They hung out with them in the clubs. He's the director. He wants to get a feel of what it's like. They chose Ted, the Cadillac, the Cabalero, with different names they call it, but it was had gold flakes in it. And Frank let Max Julian wear his gold jury. He had two cessatory platinum and gold. So he let Max Julian wear his gold set. He maxed in order clothes, but it gave him an idea of the style, how to pimp to dress. - Well, speaking of which, just real quick to interrupt, there's this hilarious story that you tell in the book of how one day Max Julian shows up to the players convention. And he thinks he's looking super fly because he's got this like head to toe fur on. And all the other pimps start to climb him, because they're like, that's not mink, that's rabbit, right? - Right. And no disrespect to Mr. Julian. - Of course not. Of course not. - You know, maybe rest in peace. Right, if you see that clip, you got Ted taking the coat off and looking at everybody's laughing. And because they're interacting with Mack and at the same time clowning him because real pimps wear meek. - That's the best. - They were exactly. Now that coat is also in a museum now. So, you know, but yeah, they were really just clowning him, you know? 'Cause it was funny to them, you know? Like, a pimping go where no long rabbit coat. Yeah, so yeah. - Well, it's amazing too that when they were filming so many the extras or people that had a little bit cameos and then movie were real people from the streets of Oakland. They weren't all actors or professional extras. - Exactly. And you had, this, their friends coming in and other players and stuff coming in, you know? 'Cause everybody want to be a part of this movie. It's, you know, it wasn't a political movie. It was a movie about the street life. Every day life that people live. It's like when Goldie was telling a little boy, he was giving out money to the kids and he was telling a boy to stay in school. And that's what the war brothers said. They, you know, they will give out money and they will encourage the kids to do better and do better, but this was the street culture. (dramatic music) - Hey, Goldie. - How you doing, Keith? How you doing? - Cool to be like you, Goldie. - Hey, look, I told you about that. - Yes. - I don't want ever hear you sing that again. - Okay. - And it goes for the rest of it. You want to be my partner, I don't want to hear you sing it. Okay, but you can be a lawyer, you can be a doctor, you can be anything you want to be. But I want ever hear you sing, you want to be like me, okay? And let me give you something as money now, 'cause I gotta get out. (dramatic music) - Go, go. - Now, how do you call me now? Just be cool, baby. You been saying in school, huh? - Yeah. - Okay. - Drob it, yeah, take it and do that 'til you're just a little test. - Isn't that one damn pants? Sure, now hell is. And every month those kids get their breath. I don't give a damn. He's still a Pemp. - There's people in the inner city, in the ghettos, in the inner city, that their stories are not being told and is real, and is real to them, and I think that's why the Mac and the War brothers after 'cause they'd be 50 years since my kids. 1972 when they came to Oakland to make the movies. I think that's why it's going on and on because it's a story that's reliable to people. Yeah, it's almost like there's this archetype of this sort of person from the underworld that's like a hero in their own community, probably going all the way back to like Robin Hood or something like that, but thinking about like Chappell or Pablo Escobar, some of these drug king pins too, where they're getting in all this money, but it's also getting infused throughout their neighborhoods, which are in a lot of places very depressed, economically marginal areas. So like you say, you know, doctors, lawyers are coming down to West Oakland or East Oakland, the hood basically giving money to, you know, these pimps and then the pimps are spreading it out to young people or other folks that might not ever see that kind of cash. Right. And they're not selling drugs. They're not getting their people hooked on heroin or cocaine. They're not, they're using drugs, like we said before, but they're not selling drugs or, you know, I mean, they so women, but like I said, we'll get to that where they were weaning off that to become legit. But they were, you know, they were, they were special, you know, they were special to their community of people. Is there, and this might be kind of a square question, but is there a difference between a pimping and a Mac? I think what the Mac would make the war brothers, Macs is because it just wasn't straight pimping, you know, pimping, you know, beaten a women, fortunate woman to go out there and make money and all you do, you have women working for you and you just a dog of a man. Max or cool lay back, have style and flare, you know, as you see, they, they dress, for Senate themselves well, spoke well. At the Oakland, I mean, at the California Hotel, you know, even with the owner of the California hotel, they had a gambling, there was one of the gambling operations. Underground casino. Exactly. The owner of a simmer man. They had that going on. They, they were involved, you know, in everything. So their operation was expanded. It was an enterprise. And what a Pemp, his business is just getting his woman on the street, his women and making money. But the war brother, they were enterprising. And they had houses in nice areas, you know, drew meals over there by meals college. That's still a nice area. Franken-tet, my Claire, that's nice. So they had homes that, you know, were doctors and lawyers to live, business people live. That's Mac and, you know, and also they had to give a gap, you know, they all had their way of talking. But they had that gift where they could, you know, talk and they someone told me the other day, which they didn't tell me how to write in the book. They, they were, I listen to these, the two guys talk and they, they were like, oh, yeah, oh, yeah, Frank was a hell of a pen. Frank will pick niggas too. You know, not like put a man on the, on the host role. But that's just how much game he had, you know, they, he, like, people working for him doing stuff for him, you know, he was able to influence people sort of mentally. Oh, yeah, they said, everyone loved Frank. They said, everyone, that's part of the story where the movie people came and Frank ended up being their contact. And I guess because Frank knew they said Frank had better communication. And it sounds like speaking about the production process movie, it was complicated, right? You're filming in the streets of Oakland. There's all these kind of legal gray zones that they're operating in. And probably the most famous complication regarding the production, the Mac was the conflict between the films producers and the word brothers and the black panthers. So can you tell me a little bit about that? Because I think that this is another chapter of Oakland history that has a lot of rumors floating around about it. And obviously only the people who were there will know exactly the truth. But in your research, what were you able to piece together? Well, first of all, you Newton, the black panthers and the war brothers, there was no beef between them. And I got this from Roosevelt Taylor and from governor. Their thing was checking down whiteie, extortion, basically, white old. These white people are not going to come in our neighborhood without paying us. Just real quick, I wanted to note that after this interview, I found an article in the October 1972 edition of the black Panther newspaper about this conflict. And according to that piece, the panthers were demanding higher wages for extras on the film. In the 2003 documentary, Mac and A&E, the producers of the Mac tell a different version of these negotiations. They knew the war brothers were involved in this movie and they knew the war brothers were getting paid. Maybe they didn't know how much they were getting paid. I still don't know how much they got paid, but they knew. So they wanted a piece of the pie. All this supposed to happen when Frank was out of town and the war brothers were not on the set when the black panthers, of course, at night when they busted in Harvey's door, the producers door kicked down. That's what Harvey said. Demanded money and all this stuff. I got hit on the shoulder and it felt I turned around and I said, what is it? The fellow said, the man wants to see. I said, who's the man? He said, he knew. And I said, well, I'm not interested. He says, well, the man wants to see it. I told him, fuck off, you know. I was in my hotel and boom. The door went flat in Wampabi, seal. And he said, you're in, you're in Panther territory, boy. I said, so what? I said, I got the word, brothers to protect me. And he says, they ain't shit. I thought it was going to kill me. I at that moment, I thought I was dead. And we decided that we better meet. We knew. They were basically saying, if you want to film in Oakland, you got to pay us. You got to come through us. Right. But they did everything not in front of the war brothers. Everything was done like I said at night when he said they busted in his door, you know, on the set when it was throwing bottles down, the war brothers were not there. But for my understanding, Frank went and had to talk with you. He went up to Huey's penthouse apartment at 1200 Lake Shore. Exactly. And he had talked with you. He Newton. And they said that Frank and you he went in the room. Maybe they had a gentleman's agreement, you know, snorted something that came out. But they had to talk about that. So them being on the set never happened again. But all that the panthers did and you knew, I just want we to say you we knew because he was the leader. Um, that all happened out of the presence of any of the war brothers, you know, Ted, Ted Frank used to go up to you, he's, you he's placed. They knew you, you know, from before the movie. And like I said, I was told that it was just the panthers wanted to get a piece of the action. Yeah. Right. And so I think that that conflict between the producers of the Mac and the panthers is one of the reasons why to this day, a lot of people still believe that the panthers were involved in the murder of Frank where he was murdered. While the movie was still being produced, but before it came out, you've done a lot of research. You've talked to a lot of people. You've dug through a lot of files, police files. Can you break down the, you know, final hours of Frank's life and then what did you find in your investigation? All right. And I would like to start off by saying that Frank was murdered in October, 70 to 1972. And at the time he was going to a lot of speakeasies, right? You describe these underground clubs basically and Oakland. Every day is they went every night they were at a speak easy when they went out. That was the, you know, I mean, you go to a club, but basically you forget the club to speak easy. Yeah. That's where you could really be yourself. You can gamble. You can do coke and they stay open all night. Exactly. Exactly. And that's where that's where it was at. You know, that world was at. But yeah, so to get to Frank's last days, Frank and Ted and governor were together and Frank told governor, okay, I meet you at the club. I see you at the chicken box. They, in the papers, they got killed somewhere else, but it was the chicken called the chicken box. And that's like North Oakland, almost near the Berkeley border. Exactly. Exactly. And they saw a branch in Blanche was book a loose woman. A lot of people say Blanche was Frank's bottom woman. She was not Frank's bottom woman. And her children would like for that to be known. And he's saw Blanche a pull up on the side of them. They have parked and said, oh Frank, you know, I have your backs earlier. I guess she had bought some clothing or some items, you know, some boosting things from Frank. And so they got out the car and they were talking and boss, they put it in a trunk of the car. And basically Frank got into Blanche car from my understanding. And boss was waiting for him and Frank told boss, go ahead inside. I'd be there in a minute. So that was last time boss saw Frank. So We don't know of what exactly happened, but from my research, there were two guys, and may have been more, but from my research, there were two guys, there were cousins. They had just came from LA because Leon Wagner was a baseball player out there, real famous at the time. He was an all-star being along, traveling all-star being along the movie, Richard Prybility Williams, and he was really famous daddywax. And from my understanding, these guys had busted in a place where he was at, demanding money. I guess he didn't have enough money on him. He wasn't home. It made him call his wife who lived in the same building. And his wife, once when he came to the door, because they pissed the whip, he saw he was bloody, and they were trying to make her come in, and she refused to come in. So she started to run away, and they shot her. She got shot twice. So they left. It came to East Oakland. Now I didn't. So these are two guys from. St. Louis. St. Louis, Missouri, who are coming out to California, and essentially allegedly kind of going on a crime spree, basically. Well, they were allegedly, right? Yeah. They were. they had family in LA, and then I found out they had family in Oakland, too. And from the off top of C.A. One of them, they were. Well, from the off top of C.A. One and from police reports, they were heron addicts. And so anyway, that night, you know, Blanche had a brand new. A 73 Cadillac, and this was 1972. She had brand new Cadillac white. And of course, you know, Frank had on his watch with the Float Diamond, and he had two big rings on, and he may have some. Another piece of jury, and Blanche had diamonds on, and so these guys, you know, standing from a distance, you could see all this. And from my understanding, before Frank came back to Oakland, they were trying to lure other people out of the gambling places to rob them. You know, because I was told. This is before I found. we had the police reports on their MO. They were telling, like, Frank Barotti, we got some furs in the car, you know, come check them out. They were just doing anything to try to get them out. And I was told this before I even read the police reports on St. Louis, when they would tell people we were selling suits. They're trying to get them to the car. That is history of robbing people, and. They were kind of looking for big fish, because they had heroin addictions allegedly, and they're trying to, you know, they see people with diamond rings, fancy cars, and they figure, if we're going to rob someone, let's make it worth a while and go after, you know, the flashiest guys are in the park. Exactly, and they found out where they hung out at the California Hotel in these after hours. They speak easy. And so, we don't know what happened. We just all. We know is that. By the time Governor got there, he asked Boss, he said, "Where's Frank? I'm supposed to meet Frank." And Boss said, "I don't know. He's outside talking to a broad, he'll be in a minute." So, time went by, no one saw Frank, and Blanche Carr was gone, and then, of course, the murder happened, because somehow, supposedly, I got back to LA first, and people start calling. Well, just before we get to that, so the car was discovered a couple blocks away, right? Blanche Carr was, because Boss had the keys too, well, they were sitting in Blanche Carr. So, the thinking is that these men had to come up to the car to get their attention. We're going to say, "Oh, God, what's pulled on them?" Because they had a good shot. And one of them got in the back seat, and the other one drove, and they ended up on Parker, Parker's Parker. They ended up there. Now, if you read the report, we're in the process of robbing them, because Frank Carr, you know, all his jury was gone. But what I didn't know, Blanche's son told me that she had all her jury on, and her purse was untouched. So, I would think that something happened where Blanche jumped out the car, and that triggered them, because they shot Frank, and they already had this jury. And maybe when they was robbing him, she saw opportunity to get away. And thank God she made it to the front porch during the doorbell before collapsing. A significant chunk of Chloe's book is dedicated to the aftermath of this double homicide. In some ways, the results of her investigation point to relatively simple story, that two men, Paul and Otis Edwards, who allegedly had a pattern of violent criminal behavior, and were addicted to heroin, killed Frank and Blanche in a botched robbery. Chloe not only dug up police reports that corroborate this version of events, with information about, for example, how one of the suspects tried to sell Frank's jewelry at a pawn shop, but she even tracked down the acquaintances of these suspects to bolster her case. Unfortunately for the wards, and Blanche's family, law enforcement didn't seem particularly interested in solving the murders. So the families were racked with fear and paranoia. They didn't know if whoever killed Frank and Blanche might be coming for them next. And they pulled back from the streets, not knowing who they could trust, sometimes not even knowing if they could trust each other. By the time Frank was laid to rest in Evergreen Cemetery, the wards' empire had already begun crumbling. The wards didn't even attend the premier screening of the Mac in Oakland. Here's the film star, Max Julian, looking back on this tragedy, for an interview with the Mac and Aine Easy documentary. The accusations were just wild like wildfire. You know, all the panthers had him killed, and somebody said it had to be a drug deal or drug thing because he was killed in a car with a girl, and it was like an assassination. Somebody shot him from the rear. Frank would never have been in that situation with somebody like you, like Frank. And I really believed in my heart that if Frank had chosen another way of life, he could have made a major contribution to the world. In the years after Frank's death, Oakland became more violent, as bigger guns and more drugs flooded in, first heroin than crack. In the book, Chloe recounts how some women who worked for the ward brothers left the street life to go back to school, start families, and bark on less dangerous careers. And as for the brothers themselves, it didn't happen overnight, but eventually they too chose a different path. One that seems to have brought them comfort and stability. After a lifetime of ecstatic highs and devastating lows. After they went through everything they did in life, they lived for the Lord. And that's what I think the most thing about the story that I would like to say is they were redeemed. They were really redeemed. You had Ted and Gene sold out for God. What do you mean by that? I mean just totally sold out for the Lord serving God. Anything the church had to offer, they were there doing not just Bible study and church. They were there witnessing, going knocking on doors, trying to save souls. They were, yeah, they traveled, you know, missionaries for their church. They did everything went to all the meetings. One lady just after I would have put in the book, but she told me afterwards she said, I don't think there's such word as having want to go to church too much. She said, but Ted and Gene were really church out. Wow. They said we'll all be having some gathering or everybody will be around and they would oh, we got to go. They were going to church. Yeah, they put God first before everything. You know, and Ted and Gene lost everything, but they put God first and God gave them. They were when Ted died and Gene just died in September. They were homeowners and everything that they lost basically came back the right way. And Drew, he died in the rest, I believe he was in a, a senior home or a resting home, but he came to the Lord, you know, Willie came to the Lord. And I think that's the story that people should see in here also that they were young, they had fun, they had a wildlife, but from being in Alabama, being raised in a church singing and acquiring, they came back to the Lord. And when they died, they knew they didn't die. This being old Pemps and still trying to hang out and be young, they died knowing God and they died serving the Lord. They were in church. ♪ I'll love ♪ ♪ From place I'll love ♪ ♪ And God forgive us ♪ ♪ Our limitations ♪ ♪ We'll see you ♪ - Thank you so much for listening to this episode of East Bay yesterday. Before I even get into the credits, I just wanna say that personally, I think sex work between consenting adults should be decriminalized. That, of course, does not include co-wrest human trafficking and the sexual exploitation of minors. Look, this is all a very complicated topic, and I actually covered it once before on the show with a very different focus. If you wanna hear a story about women who are trying to prevent the exploitation of minors in Oakland's underground sex economy, check out episode four. It came out about five years ago, and it's called Celeste Guab, not the first. I'll put a link in the show notes. Okay, moving on, big shout out to everyone supporting the show on Patreon. If you can afford three bucks, five bucks, 20 bucks, whatever, it all adds up, and it helps tremendously. You can find a donate link at East Bay yesterday.com. If you wanna support the show, you can also sign up for my newsletter. If you wanna hear about upcoming events, yes, the boat tours are back. They always sell out really fast. So get on that if you're interested, and special thanks to Scott Saul for some research assistance. Check out the Berkeley Revolution site to see some amazing local history that Scott has helped compile. Oh, and one more thing, please, if you like this show, spread the word, tell your friends, tell your families, post it about on social media. I see you guys out there, spread the word, and I really, really appreciate it. Music for this episode came from Willie Hutch, the Supremes, the Ballads, and Too Short. And that's about it. I've been your host, Liam Modonehue, and I'll be back soon with Maurice Bay yesterday.