Speaker 1The Telegraph The establishment
Speaker 2is out to destroy them and reform is fighting back. The party has reported ITV to the police after its sting.
Speaker 1But is the biggest threat to Nigel Farage's party actually from within? We speak to Conservative defector Danny Kruger.
Speaker 3There is just an across-the-board effort right now to hobble reform and to prevent us from delivering. And that's not personal. It's not because they think there's a couple of racists in our lower ranks. It's because they don't want us to do what we want to do for the country. And what we're trying to do for the country, by the way, is not extreme. It is mainstream.
Speaker 2We're delighted to be joined by Danny, who is the Reform MP for East Wiltshire, previously a Tory MP, and is now head of the party's planning for government. Danny, thank you for being with us.
Speaker 3Hello. Hello, Chubbs.
Speaker 2I want to begin by asking, about the ITV investigation into reform, which appeared to show people telling racist jokes. These are candidates, people who work for the party, apparently delaying dropping candidates, people within the party admitting that there is a misogyny problem, Nigel Farage apparently joking about racism. Before we get into the issue of the ethics of ITV's investigation, how do you respond to the overall impression that reform has become a home for racists and sexists?
Speaker 3Well, thank you. The overall impression I have is not that at all. And, you know, I've been in the party for a year. It was already actually a far more professional party than our opponents like to present it. And the fact that I joined it reflected that. I was joining a team that was getting ready for government. And over the last year, there's been really significant improvements in the operation. I mean, it's grown from nothing to a major party with councillors across the country, across the whole of the United Kingdom, proper national party. And in that process, there is going to be growing pains and difficulties. And every party attracts bad apples. Politics attracts all kinds of strange characters and reform is no different. And obviously, it is also true. We're an insurgent party. We reflect the deep anger in the country about the state that our nation is in. And we're going to attract people who, frankly, shouldn't be in politics at all, who behave badly, who say appalling things, and they need to be exited. I mean, it's also true that we have done more thorough vetting of our candidates from, you know, future MPs right to councillors and to staff than any other party and other parties, too, without making this a kind of what about contest. Other parties attract wrong-uns as well. And I was in the Tory party, they had their share, they have them now. You've seen a story this week of an appalling case of a Conservative candidate who looks like he was inviting a vote. He was inviting somebody to hire a hitman or someone to beat a journalist up. So, I'm afraid politics gets this. I'm very, very distressed when I see reform councillors speaking in the way that they did on that programme. But it does not reflect the overall reality of the party, which, as I say, is increasingly professional, well-organised behind the scenes. And it's obviously very frustrating for us that the public is getting this impression, which reflects, I'm afraid to say, a deliberate assault, not on us as individuals, as I always say, what they're trying to stop is a reformed government doing what we say we want to do, hence the extent of the establishment opposition to us.
Speaker 1Is it a police matter, though? So, Zia Yousaf has now complained to the police about some of the tactics used by the undercover journalists involved in this sting. You're the party that quite often says, "Please police the streets, not our tweets." Do we really want police officers investigating undercover journalism? You've cut your losses, you've cut these people free, you've said goodbye, don't stand for us again. Why don't you just move on?
Speaker 3Well, obviously we are moving on and there's going to be a whole range of announcements in the coming weeks. We're not obsessing about this. But that said, I think it is important, Camilla, to recognise there are proprieties and ethics around journalism. And if they are flagrantly breached, then I think it is the job of politicians to point that out. And when the law has been flagrantly broken, as in this case, outrageous deception by ITV, including breaking electoral law, I mean, pretending to be canvassers, getting involved in canvassing, knocking on doors, as well as all the deception involved in false passports. And then an actual real, I mean, the reason we are so outraged about it, and you know, listen, we are not saying that it's wrong to have identified these very bad actors that are, you know, in low levels in our party who need to be exited. But the method that they used wasn't about those people. And the real offence is not that they've identified a couple of bad apples, it's that they spent a whole year not just infiltrating HQ, but recording low level, and that they've been doing it for a long time. And that's why we are so outraged about it. And I think that's the real problem. the headlines you see about reform are often negative ones rather than us being able to get our arguments over. I mean, we're putting forward so many very strong, very robust policies, by the way, which then get picked up by the other parties. I mean, here we've seen Labour approve the gas field in the North Sea this week. Reform's been calling for that for years. The Tories caught up with us a bit late. So we are leading the debate on a whole bunch of issues. But yes, often the only thing the media want to report, and guys, you're doing it too, is reporting on, is commenting on these stories. Important as it is to weed out bad eggs in our, if you can weed eggs, in our ranks. These are not the main things. And as I say, the main objective of our opponents is not to, not to, you know, stop a couple of racist councillors. It's to stop the reform project, which is. Sure.
Speaker 1I mean, to be fair, Danny, Tim and I have agreed that you do see, to be subject to disproportionate amounts of scrutiny versus, for instance, the Greens. I mean, I'm really looking forward to an undercover expose of some of their conversations, particularly about Israel and Jews behind closed doors. Equally, I wouldn't mind an undercover sting into Restore and the kind of language that they're coming out with.
Speaker 2I don't think you need to do it undercover.
Speaker 1No, to be fair, it's all on X. But I'm wondering what you do make personally of this slight Because you're one of those defectors that didn't say, I'm doing this because I want to kill the Tories. It wasn't as vindictive, if I can put it like that, as Robert Jenrick and Sweller Braverman. And I know that you thought very long and hard about moving to reform. And now we look at these stats with the Conservatives having some kind of revival. And then look, electoral calculus in your own seat of East Wiltshire, you'd be far more likely to retain your seat as a Conservative, 46%, than a Reformer, 31%. So clearly, people might naturally ask, is Danny Kruger having a bit of buyer's remorse? No, I'm not at all.
Speaker 3I mean, I always knew it was going to be a tough fight for me personally. And I didn't switch parties. Because it would make it easier for me to be reelected. I recognise that it's quite a traditional Conservative area I represent. But I want to unite the right. And I think there's only one way to do that. And that is to bring everybody behind the party that can actually win, that can win support across the country, not just in Wiltshire, and the South and the South East. And we need to be a national. We need a national party that can win in Scotland and Wales, the North of England and the East of England. And Reform is the only party that can do that. And, you know, we talk about the personal and the chemi naissance, as you put it. She's getting a very easy ride from the media. They've decided they love her. And to give her credit, I mean, people like someone who's shown some resilience. She's kept on going. They've got used to her. And the media are giving her a fair win. But as I say, I'm afraid to say it is because they really, really want to stop. I'm afraid to say it is because they really, really want to stop. And the problems with the Tory party remain. And as you say, it's never been personal. I've got many good friends there. I don't think it helps to make it personal. But we've got to put country before party. And if we want to defeat Labour, if we want to restore common sense, if we want to do all the things we all want to do about immigration and energy, policing, the economy, the only way to do that is to unite behind a party that can win. And that stands for the real change that the country needs, which is a break from the model of government we've had for 25 years. And I'm afraid to say, and I work for David Cameron, all credit to him. But the Tory party in government, Boris Rishi, all colluded with a model that Blair had set. And we need to break with that fundamentally. And the Tory party can't do that because they are complicit with the record. They are responsible for the state the country is in. The only way to, as it were, absolve themselves of responsibility for that, and I don't think it should be personal, they should join us. We need conservative supporters. And I would say politicians to say, yes, Nigel was right all along. And in order to save our country, to have a genuinely conservative government, the only way to do that is to swallow our pride. So it's not all about us. Doesn't matter about the conservative brand. Let's put the country first. And let's back reform.
Speaker 2First of all, what do you think about someone calling Kemi Badenok a Nigerian scammer? And secondly, why won't the party distance itself? Well, I mean, Raheem Kassam is
Speaker 3not a party spokesman, and he's free to say what he likes. And, you know, a bit of rambunctious debate online, I think, is part of our politics. And so I've got nothing to say to that. It's not my style. But listen, the country is really, really furious with the political system that we have. And people who are responsible for policy in the last government, senior ministers, who approved all of the madness of net zero, for instance, the principal reason we have the highest electricity prices in the world, who connived at our open borders policy, I'm afraid to say they do have to bear responsibility. I've said there's a way to absolve themselves of that, which is to admit their errors. That's what I did. I was only a junior backbencher at the end of the last parliament, but I was responsible for voting for some of that madness. And I've said, I am sorry. And I recognize that what we should have done is what Nigel was arguing for at the time. We should have resisted all of this, as I tried to. And I lost, broke the whip and I got in trouble with Rishi. But, you know, that's what is needed from former Tories or from Tories to do that. And it's not surprising that people who don't, people who are basically still loyal to the failures of the past, are going to get a fair bit of grief.
Speaker 2The party's lack of apparent discipline, its refusal to discipline people like him or distance itself from him, is a problem. And some people suspect it's because it's a party of mates. And Rahim is a mate. And if he weren't, if he were just some random reform activist, at some point, someone would have said, this guy's an idiot. He's got nothing to do with us. Shut up. You're wrong. But the very fact that you won't, on this podcast, when hearing that someone has described Kemi as a Nigerian scammer, you won't just instinctively say, yeah, that's disgusting. I don't like that. Instead, you'd call it rambunctious. I mean, that raises questions. I mean, I'm uncomfortable with that, I have to say. Why not just call it out, call it for what it is, which is a disgusting and unnecessary slur?
Speaker 3Well, Tim, I mean, you're inviting me to get involved in sort of, you know, fratricidal conflict within the reform family. And I don't want to do that. I think what we need to do is to focus on the real challenges our country faces. As I say, I don't go in for. You know, personal attacks on Tories, or indeed on anybody. I just don't think that's a helpful way of doing politics. But others do. And they reflect the, as I say, the very legitimate and very serious anger that is in the country about the state of the country that the Tories left us in. So I'm not going to start judging people for using, you know, strong language online. Let them do that. Kemi can take it. I don't think she's particularly faith. Tim makes a point about, is the
Speaker 1greatest threat to reform actually not the establishment, but from within? I mean, the thing about the expose about the activists is this kind of, there's vetting, but it's slightly chaotic. As part of the vetting, somebody says to someone, oh, well, you better delete anything that you previously posted about Tommy Robinson. It's all a bit amateur. We get the fact that you're a resurgent and insurgent party and that you're new, and that you're new to this. And you don't have that kind of traditional grassroots base that the Tories have enjoyed literally for decades.
Speaker 3Well, it doesn't help them either, does it?
Speaker 1I mean, they've also got, they've got people just as bad. And they're in the news this week for it.
Speaker 3I mean, they're in the news this week for it. How much of the resource of the reform has is behind the scenes or below the waterline, as it were. It's where the machinery of the party is really impressive now. I think we should invite journalists to come and have a look around Milbank, actually.
Speaker 1We'll come and have a look. We'll do behind the scenes.
Speaker 3It's a very impressive operation, looking, you know, our campaigning, but also, also the vetting, you know, all the candidate selection business that goes on. I think we do that far more professionally than any other party does, because, of course, we are, as you say, where you're right. I mean, the Tories have a whole network of local politicians and activists and basically wannabe politicians. politicians who have been developing over the years. We are deliberately reaching out into the sort of non-political world, people who have not thought that politics is for them, but realise that now is the time to step up and start to serve their country. And over the coming months, you're going to start seeing that. More front bench spokespeople, but also candidates announced, our parliamentary candidates who have got through this very rigorous process and approved to stand for Parliament. Really, really high quality people who do not have a background in politics, but have led organisations in the public service sector or in business. And that whole professionalisation that has been going on over the last year, which you don't hear about, and maybe that's our fault. And it's true, of course, that we create negative headlines for ourselves sometimes, we trip up and screw up, that happens. But that is because we are not the, does happen in other parties, as I keep saying, but we are a populist party, we represent the people. And it's going to be messy sometimes. And we are growing at enormous speed. So these kind of things happen. We're not going to diminish them, but they are not the main event. The main event is that reform is a very, very professional operation now. And crucially, as I really want to emphasise, the issue is not individuals, the issue is what we are wanting to do for the country. And that is substantial, radical. And that is why we are attracting such intense opposition from the media and from the
Speaker 2establishment. Thank you very much.
Speaker 3Thank you. Thank you very much. Thank you. Thank you very much. Thank you very much.
Speaker 1Thank you very much indeed for sparing some time to speak to us on the Daily Tea today. Thank you. Thank you.
Speaker 2So there you have it. Everything's fine within the Reform Party, although he did say he didn't want to comment on fratricidal matters, which of course means both brotherly and murderous.
Speaker 1Yes, that's right. But if there isn't brotherly and murderous tendencies within any political party, then what would we have to talk about?
Speaker 2Yeah, because they're all run by men. That's the problem. That's the principle. Bring back Maggie.
Speaker 1Bring back Maggie.
Speaker 2Left, right, populist establishment. The important thing is that they're all run by men.
Speaker 1Just don't let the blokes be in control of any of this. That's where the problems start and finish. And talking of blokey budget chats, I'm the only bird at the table, aren't I, for that one?
Speaker 2Yeah, we'll be back tomorrow at 5pm with a pre-budget special with Jeremy Hunt and Norman Lamont. Yay! Remember him?
Speaker 1Yeah, so that's four people discussing the budget. At least two of them can count. Back tomorrow, 5pm.
PodcastTranscript AI