These Are the 10 Things that Terrify Trump Most

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We must remind people we will be at the Telegram Ballroom in LA October the 20th at, I guess, 7 p.m. Pacific time of the. If you would like to come and join us and see Michael completely unplugged no-holds-barred, unedited by Moire, he will be in full form. And you can buy tickets at BSTOPPub/ITHlive. That's BSTOPPub/ITHlive. Or you can go to Ticketmaster and just tap in inside Trump's head. You're looking forward to it. I am. Good. I am also looking forward to it. And very much looking forward to meeting people. There are some meat and greets which I'm very excited about because there's nothing more fun than talking to people who've actually listened to us. Pressing the flesh. Pressing the flesh. Running for president. Oh, you are running for president. Michael wants to run. I guess there's an independent, right? That's a writer. That's a writer. The first writer candidate. Well, they all go and monetize their writing afterwards, right, with J.R. Murringo, whoever. Who co-wrote Obama's memoir? Did he write to himself? He probably did write to himself. Did he need two volumes? Yeah, no. I think he did probably the any person who he claims to. Yes. All right, so today we have a special episode. But they still have a lot of people around them. What's this? Well, the people. They call out. I have no one around me. I write, I write. But these people have, oh, what's it get to get? Can you get me the thing? And remember, what I said about that? Get me that. So it's a different writing experience. Different writing experience. Fair. And don't forget, please subscribe to the Daily Beast podcast. We are going to have I hope a conversation I've really been looking forward to having for some time, actually, we're really going to go deep, deep into Trump's head where we go three times a week to try and explain a president who really rules with no regard for anybody else. Is that fair? Just to remind people why we do this journey every week. No regard to anyone, anyone else, no regard to anything that has ever been done before, no regard to what will be done in the future, no regard to to literally anything. It is just one, one man who exists in his own bubble and fantasy world, which which somehow has become power world. All our world, all our worlds. So we were, I mean, obviously, Michael and I have endless conversations when we don't have microphones in front of us and we try and pair everything down when we do have actual podcast conversations. So we leave out the dull bits. But one conversation we've been having is about what is Trump actually afraid of? Is there anything he's afraid of? He behaves as if he's not remotely afraid of anything, including a dropping at the midterm elections. And so Michael made a list of the 10 things that he thought Donald Trump was actually afraid of? Well, and I made this, this, this list counter to the list that you made. And the list that Joanna made was the list of things that most people would be afraid of. Right. Including death, including, including, I wondered if you looked at Mitch McConnell and thought, oh, that could be me. And the thing that I, that I try to say, well, that I try to say, and this list and things that I try to say all of the time, is that Donald Trump is not like you, nor I, nor anyone we know or have ever known. Yeah, you sent me back at text saying, stop trying to normalize him. Of course, he's not afraid of any of these things that I listed. Instead, you came up with a much more interesting list. And then we thought, well, we should, we should do this as a special episode of the podcast, because what he's afraid of, well, it illuminates so much about him. Okay. So the first thing you, you say about him is, well, the first thing is that you have to let's, because our printer doesn't work. So we can still doesn't work. And our printer still doesn't work. So I'm going to show it to you on my iPad. But, he is, I mean, I think top of his list, top of the things that, that, that, that, that plagues him is being seen as stupid. For one reason, because he is stupid. And we should say that the point of going through these fears is to understand why he is as he is. Because actually, he's a man that's been created through his fears. And his, all of his things, you know, of declaring himself a genius, a very stable genius. And he, he declared himself a stable, he said that after my book, Fire and Fury came out, obviously kind of suggesting that he was less than a genius, much, much, much less than a genius. And as, as a matter of fact, there, there was, there was a moment, I was trying to think way at which point. This was that Steve Bannon and I were talking about, about what Putin might have on Trump. And, um, and Bannon went through all the things dismissing them, you know, the p tapes on. That, that, if that came out, that really wouldn't bother him because Trump would just say, that, that's not me. Even if you saw Trump in the picture, peeing on the mattress, he would just say, not it's not me. Um, and, and, um, or, or whether there was financial stuff, a financial stuff doesn't bother him. All of those kinds of things. But then Bannon got to the thing, got to the point, he said, what I think Trump has on him are his college transcripts. Um, and his college transcripts, which would be from the Wharton School of the University of Pennsylvania. Mm-hmm. And in fact, during the campaign, during the 2016 campaign, there was a fear that those transcripts were going to come out. And then they came down very hard on the University of Pennsylvania, and basically said, you know, we will, we will, we will take every action against you if those transcripts are not buried. So always that kind of thing to be revealed as, as a, as a person, as a, as a dummy. And because he is a dummy, because he doesn't, I mean, he has throughout his school years, we're always a complete catastrophe. I mean, his, you know, and I think that he probably does have some, what some learning disability, which I think is very, um, um, you know, uncomfortable for him. I mean, he is, he is, that is one of the roots of his major insecurities. If you've ever landed in another country and immediately started desperately searching for airport Wi-Fi, or realized you now have to figure out how to get a local SIM, there's a much easier way. It's called salie, the e-SIM solution from the security pros behind Nord VPN. You can get affordable data in more than 200 destinations, and setting it up is incredibly simple. You download the salie app, pick a plan, install the e-SIM, and it activates when you arrive. There are plans for pretty much every kind of traveler from a few gigabytes to unlimited data. salie goes beyond just getting you online. It can block malicious sites, trackers and annoying ads, and you can track your remaining data right from your phone. You can also earn salie credits when you buy a plan, or a fairer friend, which you can put towards future travel. Download salie in the app store, or by scanning the QR code now on screen. Use code beast to check out, to get 15% off your first purchase. That's 15%. The details are in the podcast episode description box. Why hasn't Fordham, his first university, released the transcripts? Do you think anybody's asked for them because he went for them first and then he transferred into the undergraduate a program at Walton, right? - I think because he's Donald Trump, he threatens you, it's he tie up anybody in litigation. I'm sure that he has already gone and secured these transcripts at both Fordham and the University of Pennsylvania. - Okay. - All right, we haven't seen his tax returns either. I mean, he's pretty good at this. - It's incredible how we haven't seen his tax returns. We haven't seen his high school transcripts. We haven't seen either of his college transcripts. They have been so successful in locking that stuff down and you know if they were good, he would have floated them out there immediately. - Well, you know that they're not good. - Right, right. Well, can you also tell the anecdote of the guy that when you were at the beginning of writing Fire and Fury and you're wrestling, trying to understand as many people have done, what actually is going on inside Donald Trump's head and someone says to you, "Oh, you don't get it, tell that story." - Okay, so one of the Trump people, a guy been in a Sam Nunberg and Sam Nunberg was really one of Trump's first political hires. Sam used to work for Roger Stone and that's how he came into the Trump orbit and he became really Trump's first political operative. And then they ultimately in 2016 or maybe late 2015 had a falling out and Sam got fired. But for many years, Sam remained the go-to person. People in Trump worlds were trying to understand what is going on with this guy would call Sam 'cause he was regarded as having, as being the guy really inside Trump's head. And when I was first getting into this first trying to understand and when I started to report on Trump trying it started to write Fire and Fury and was in the White House and I had no preconceptions. I actually thought, well, Trump could be a very interesting president. Disrupt a rule breaker. I mean, that turned out to have very bad consequences but it could have had actually positive consequences. Who knew how this was going to go? But in those first months in the White House where everybody was confused about what Trump was doing and what kind of guy he was and what was the goal here. And I went to Sam Nunberg and I sat down with him and I said just, and I was trying to work this out, out loud, was he good, was he bad, was this, did he know what was. I didn't, you just couldn't tell. And then Sam looked at me like I was, I mean, like he was incredulous and he said to me, he said, you don't get it. And I said, what? And then he said, Sam said, he's an idiot. And it suddenly, you know, it suddenly came clear you don't think someone's been elected to president of the United States. You, I mean, they can be many things but you don't think that they're an idiot. Someone who knows nothing about nothing. - Okay, so number two, the thing that he's afraid of it is completely counterintuitive again for a president of the United States. Information, and that was also from a Steve Bannon perception that he said that Trump was an information fob. And this is related to being stupid in that he can't, he can't process this when people give him information. And in the early days in the, in the, in the White House. And again, the people in the first administration, Trump had no political contact, contacts. We're only really two politicians that he, that he personally knew Rudy Giuliani and Chris Christie, the governor of New Jersey. So he arrives in Washington and everybody who fills the White House, they don't know who he is either. Everybody is kind of getting, getting to know each other on the job. And that's totally unusual. Remember because most people run for, run for president and, and over a long period of time, they have long political careers. And they're surrounded by people who have worked for them for a long period of time. I mean, even Steve Bannon, who was essentially the number, the number two or the, or the, in, in the White House had only really known Trump since the previous August. So there, everybody's in the White House and they're trying to figure out this, figure out this guy. And I remember one of the things and everybody's asking everybody else. And then one of the observations, they would say, but, you know, he doesn't read. I mean, this is so, so, so difficult to get him information. You would put it into, you know, you would try to give it a format bullet points or, or one paragraph, but all of this, he would just, he would do this gesture, just kind of wave it away. So, so you couldn't put something in front of him and, and then they would say, you know, so that's a, that's a, that's a problem. They said, but then that's compounded by the fact that he doesn't listen. So there is just no way you could get any information to him. - Because there's lots of speculation that he can't read, that he is. - Or a lot of discussion, was he actually illiterate? - Right. - Was he semi-literate? - Or it could be dyslexic. - Was he dyslexic? One of those things, but there was obviously a dysfunction when it came to, to words on the page. - Right. So, and yet he does seem to be able to read from a teleprompter. - Even that, you remember, often those speeches, he's always, he always deviates from the teleprompter. - Right. - And, and that, that, that again, it's very uncomfortable for him. I mean, in a sense, in a sense he understands, he's, he's, he's better. He is more Trump when he's all-- - When he's scripted, when he's gone off scripted. - But that's partly because he has learned to do that. So this is all a kind of, a kind of way of compensating for the things that other people do rather naturally and, and rather, you know, and that keeps them out of trouble. And he's, I mean, in a sense, he invites that, he's come to invite that trouble as a form, as a way of compensating. - Right, so these are his coping mechanisms, which in a normal, or in a person who's not president of the United States wouldn't necessarily matter. I mean, it's incredibly high. I think it's something like 23% of the CEOs of the Fortune 500 have dyslexia and compensate by like Arya Manuel does making 300 calls a day and then having an incredible memory as opposed to having things written down everywhere. - Yeah. - But that's not what we- - Well, I mean, like to be, I mean, I think that can be part of it too, but I think, you know, there's, there's gradations of this. And I mean, one of the things Jeffrey Epstein used to point out that Trump, and remember, Trump, the myth of Donald Trump is as the greatest businessman in America. He couldn't read a balance sheet. - Right. - Because on top of everything else, he's enumerate. It's, this is one of the reasons numbers, you know, the numbers become, you know, you know, there are 60,000 people at a rally or 40,000 people at a rally. And that becomes for Trump hundreds of thousands because the numbers don't mean anything. I mean, he can't envision them. He can't conceptualize them. 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So stop serving your little carnival, a bowl of processed shortcuts for a limited time because you're an inside Trump's head listener, get 60% of your first order plus free shipping and free treats for life when you head to smalls.com/head. That's 60% of your first order plus free shipping and free treats for life when you head to smalls. So we've established that he's terrified of being seen as stupid. He is terrified of information. He can't absorb it. What is the need? Anything that's written down, there's a terror and you can see when you give him something, when you hand him something of something written in front of them, I mean, something happens in his face. He doesn't want to see it. He passionate away, yeah. I feel a bit like that when I have to look at my bank account, just panic, panic, get it away from here, get it away from here. Okay. So what's the third thing that you think is important in his, in his fears, which you would think would disqualify him to be president? He doesn't want to have a conversation. He can't have a conversation. He's afraid of having a conversation. I mean, he's afraid of having a conversation because he can't actually think in the, he can't respond in the moment. If you say something to him, he will, he can't, he can't address it in a conversation, which is I say something and then you say something related to that. He can't do that. So he'll talk over you or, or, or talk parallel to you or not let you talk at all. So there is no discussion. I mean, let's, let's, I mean, think about this, you know, when, when you're, the answers come out of the sharing of information of, of, of, of, of having, of parsing things with someone else who might know something of everything being, being additive of people thinking out loud and having their thinking clarified against what, any, what someone else is saying. So this doesn't happen with Trump, can't happen with Trump. He doesn't let it happen. It's all, I mean, that's why it's all broadcasts for him. I'm talking, I'm going to continue to talk, I'm not going to give anyone the opportunity to get a word in edgewise. Why? Well, partly because I'm the dominant person. Right. I, I, I don't want to listen. Why should I listen to anyone else? But that is also compensation for the fact that I can't, I can't absorb what someone else is saying. So he must be terrified of being found out the whole time that he can't really read. He can't absorb information. He can't have a regular conversation because he can't really understand what you're saying. You know, I don't, I don't know, I mean, a normal person that would be, that would be true. And at some level, that's true, but he is so successful at these things that that's become that everybody else is a weakling because they're, because they're reading stuff or talking to people or getting good grades. And he has somehow superseded all of that, transcended the need for these things. Okay. So fourth, fourth is being excluded. I mean, he, he, here's a guy and I used to see this in, in, in New York that he would always be everywhere. So, you know, fear of missing out was, was top of mind for Donald Trump. He had to be, he didn't exist unless he existed in every situation. So, and so if they're, and this is partly a status thing, that any party, any gathering of people that he felt he should rightly attend, he had to be there, and he would force his way in. Right. Gate crashing. Yes. He, he was. But, but where was he trying to get what, what would his ideal invite be that he wasn't receiving or that he was terrified he wasn't receiving? Well, we will just think, yeah, but just, yeah, but just, just, just think in New York, all of, I mean, he's out every night. Right. Every night, and, and so you, you would, you would be, over the years, you can begin to see that there's no why there's no there, there's no, there's no inner being there, because he's out, it's all external and the fear, the constant of having to overcome rejection. I mean, any possibility of rejection, I mean, I remember Jeffrey Epstein told, told the story of one night they showed up at, at a restaurant, this was, would be in the 80s, a restaurant called Mortimer's, which was the, you know, the, the restaurant of, of, of that time. And he was turned away and ended it, and it just threw him into, you know, panic, I'm in, it was an extension. A humiliation, right? Humiliation. So social humiliation. Yes. But also, it's not just social humiliation, it's this understanding, he's a social climber. I mean, let's, let's, let's understand that. Didn't everybody in New York, a social climber? No, you're a social climber. I'm not a social climber. And, and I've seen you socially climb, Michael. Well, I've seen, I'm sometimes you're forced into this position of having to do so, but, but I have always hated it and, and, and I hope most often rejected it. But there are many people in New York, a, a whole layer of people who live just to do this. That is their justification in life that they can social climb. And Donald Trump is the ultimate expression of, of, of that. I mean, his relationship. Well, a social climbed his way to the presidency, so that's not bad. Yeah. Yeah, but even that, you know, I mean, that's that, well, it's compensatory. I think, I think, yeah, well, I think that, I mean, social climbing to the presidency for Donald Trump makes that seem like it was somehow logical when, in fact, it was completely illogical. But he has gone on and, you know, Donald Trump has been, has been, kind of cast out so many times, so he's always clawing his way back. Well, it's also his rage, I think, isn't it, that what he's done is he's, he's, he's been galvanized by the rage of exclusion. Um, yeah, and, and I mean, he's just cockroach-like too, you know, that he comes, comes back and, you know, there, there are those moments, you know, there was that moment in New York, sort of the late 90s moment when, when he had just become a joke, I mean, the bankruptcy is the Atlantic city, a joke. And then he clawed his way back into through reality television, right? And even that was not something, you know, they went to many people, you know, on that, on the apprentice, you know, he was not the first choice. He was down the list and, um, and he got himself in there and then, of course, made a, um, you know, just a completely unexpected success of that. Okay. So he's afraid of information, of conversation, of being excluded and being alone, but, but even here, this is a different, a different kind of thing. I think most people are afraid of being alone and they get a mate, you know, they get a, they get a husband or a wife or, um, and then they're afraid of, and they're afraid of being trapped or, um, but he doesn't, his idea of, of, of not being alone is just surrounded by people who just listen to him. So the Oval Office, let me get, this is, this is, I've never seen anything, well, I've never imagined anything could be like this. I mean, the Oval Office, we have all have an idea of the Oval Office, which is not an inaccurate idea. It's the President of the United States. You get to go in the Oval Office at, at moments of, of, uh, in, in, in which, in which the President is using the full weight of his office to, to impress you or to, um, yeah, I, I mean, to, I, it's, it's really a thing. I am, I want you to know that I am the President. I speak in the name of this office, um, and so when, when I was in, in the White House and those first six or seven, seven months, you would sort of, um, peek into the Oval Office and it would be filled with people, it was like a, like a, like a people waiting for a bus. Um, I mean, just rows of chairs, he would be sitting behind the desk going blah, blah, blah, blah. You would about, God knows what, and people would be sitting there, um, you know, 20 to the side with your little notebook, out sort of writing down, we were taping things. What, what, where were you so that you were observing, but not being over observed yourself? Yeah, sometimes you would just, you would just try not to be, not to be noticed. I mean, my whole thing was, was, um, for, for, um, for, I, try to avoid people asking, what's that guy doing here? And which, which no one did, because everybody assumed that if you're there, you were right, you could have said that for anyone else sitting in the room, and there will always be 20 people in the room, 25 people in the room, what are they doing here? Who are they? And they were just the audience. And Trump would, you know, the intern says, Trump would say, come on, come on, sit down. And then he would go blah, blah, blah, and it would go on forever. And so that's his idea. The idea of not being alone is not to connect with someone, just to essentially have an audience. So have an audience to have an audience is the whole thing. So the presidency is his ultimate kind of, it's the ultimate kind of, it's a pulpit to the ultimate audience. Well, it just, yeah, and it's just the ultimate buffer to his loneliness is having this vast audience. You know, so when I first asked him, why do you want to be president? And this was in, in the spring of 2016. And he said to be the most famous man in the world, that's really about, in a sense, about not being alone. And yet, at the same time, you say another of his fears is not wanting human contact. I know, I mean, this is a crazy guy. I mean, I mean, the Marlem Aple said they had the best sex ever. And what am I to make of that? Well, I'm just wondering if it's what kind of contact he has, I mean, I don't know what kind of sex Marlem Aple's likes. Fair, fair, fair answer. And also we think in fact that he said that to page six or whatever, right? We have no idea if Marlem Aple said that. And in fact, for someone who is having the best sex of her life, she left him or they split up pretty quickly. And Melania clearly doesn't want to hold his hand. She may be similar that she may not want any human contact either. But the point is that he doesn't like shaking hands, right? Despite the fact that they say his hands are so bruised because he shakes so many hands. But, well, well, that is a germ of fear, but it doesn't work. Yeah, no, no, I mean, always up until, I mean, I think he's had to learn how to shake hands or have to become willing to do that. But, but long ago, and I remember him in New York when you would run into him at night at some event. And actually, when you went to any event in New York for a period in the 1990s, there would be Donald Trump. Right. But, but when you saw, and then I would say, and then you know, well, you just kind of instinctively put out your hand and he never, never took your hand. What did, what did you, you just withdrew it? Yeah. Did he pat you on the arm? Did he grab your shoulder? Did he give you a hug? No, no, no, no, no, no, it was always that kind of, there was always standoff. And he's always, you know, that big overcoat. Very, I mean, a very armored guy. Okay. So it doesn't like human contact. And frightened, you say, of being mocked, fearful of being mocked. Yeah, I mean, he's, it's interesting because he actually has a kind of a sense of humor. So he's very good at, well, put it this way, he's very good at mocking other people. And that can be very funny. So when you're with him, he'll say things about other other people and you'll think, this guy is kind of, kind of great until, until you, you realize the kind of cruelty there. And also that he's going to say terrible things about you as soon as you, as soon as you leave the room. But he is also cannot, you can't say things about him. I mean, that's why, you know, this venom to the press is really about it mocking him. It's not really about a political issue that they're, the press is opposing him. It's about being mocked. You know, and you can go back to that, to that, you know, famous 2011 White House correspondent's dinner when, which some people say is the, you know, is, is a motivation for his presidential ambitions because Obama from the stage mocked him. Well, they actually showed a mocked white, a mocked up version of the White House with Trump on the top of it, didn't they? I mean, the most sort of weirdly prescient mockery you could have imagined. Yeah, no, I mean, this is a thing he can't, he is incredibly thin-skinned. I mean, he'd obviously actually been thinking of running for president way before then. I mean, Ivana in her memoir talks about telling the Czechoslovakian police when she was being debriefed that she'd married Donald Trump that he had political ambitions, but it certainly feels like the Obama mockery triggered. I think that's, I actually think that's part of the thing. I think that's bullshit. I don't think I think saying president is like me saying, and anyone saying they're going to be president. I mean, I mean, this is just part of the performance of, of me, me, me. I'm going to put my name on a building, but the idea of him becoming becoming president was, I don't think ever actually in his mind until the moment he became president, it was a performative up until that point. It was, I'm going to, you know, this is a way to get more famous. And then suddenly he's president. I mean, this is one of the, you know, that historic, a turn in history, a breach in history that I think years and years from now people will go back to. This is something that should not have happened. Right. Well, for sure. Okay. Another point that you say is related to his older brother who died of, I think it's related to, I don't think it's related to just his older brother. I think his father was an alcoholic and I think his mother was an alcoholic. I think the whole everybody in the family was an alcoholic. So in that is a thing, that's kind of a major thing. I cannot have a drink. It's not just, I don't drink. I can't have a drink. Right. So that away from me. Right. And Suzy Wiles famously said in an interview, something which you say Donald Trump says about himself, which is that he's gotten alcoholics personality. He says this all the time. I mean, in that, that becomes a kind of weird excuse while I have an alcoholics personality, but I don't drink. Therefore, I can't be blamed for anything here. And then I've, you know, I've also been around him trying to get a drink. And it's very hard. Apart from the diet coke. Yeah. I mean, I've been at the, you know, had dinner at Mar-a-Lago with Trump and Melania. And they say, would you like a drink? Yeah. And then it never comes. Does Melania drink? I can't tell. I don't know. I should have observed that. Yeah. That would be interesting to know if she, she doesn't look as if she drinks particularly, but who knows? This idea of him not being, of being forgotten, of not being included. And one of the first things. So I kind of got to know Donald Trump, the extent that one can know Donald Trump. When I was at New York Magazine and I wrote the media columns. So somehow he connected me media and would call, would call me up. And it was all about, I mean, most people, when they called you said, oh, you wrote this about me. And that was wrong. And, you know, blah, blah. He would call up and say, why didn't you write about me? Right. Because he wants to be the center of attention. Right. So you wrote this article, which, which as I recall in many instances had nothing to do with Donald Trump. You should have called me. I could have told you whatever. And, and then you would say, yeah, yeah, I'll call you again the next time. And then, and then you would get a call from some, someone else in his, in his office and says, and they would say, uh, Mr. Trump says you want to interview him. And you would say, no, no, I said, sometime I'll, oh, yeah. And then they would say, yeah, I wish you would. So it's always that kind of, that kind of thing. And then famously, of course, he, he, he invented his own PR person who was him. John Baron. Yes. Right. And in the White House, they still, they joke about that when there's a leak. And everybody says, where did that come from? They say, probably John Baron. John Baron, I, the president himself. So is his, do you think he's, his biggest fear is just not having attention? Like what's going to happen to him? We know when he lost the 2020 election, he went back to Mar-a-Laga, he regrouped. What happens when he leaves the White House knowing he can't come back? Well, he's never going to leave. I mean, he's never going to leave in that way. I mean, well, you said he's going to go. Mar-a-Laga is going to happen. I can do this essentially. This is completely clear to me. I mean, a Democrat will win. He will not let a Republican win in 2028. He will return to Mar-a-Laga with billions of dollars that he's extorted from corporate America, with which to set up a alternative White House. I mean, so there will be, and we will have the feeling often that there are two presidents, or two competing, two competing centers of attention in the United States. But is his fear that he will, at some point, not be the most famous person in the room, not be the most powerful person in the room? No, because he's good at this. He will continue to do this. He will do this, you know, he knows how to do this. Nobody else knows how to do this, like he does. Why is he Donald Trump now? Because every day there's new conflict, every day there's new drama. Every day, Trump is at the center of some other story. Now, he will have a Democratic president to compete with. But, you know, competing with normal people, let's assume the next president, the next Democratic president, is at least a semi-normal person, a person who sees their job as essentially, and ultimately an administrative and bureaucratic function, and trying to maintain some idea of respectability and some idea of what the presidency traditionally represents. And they will then be encountered to that. Will be this guy who's making a commotion every day. Issuing statements, issuing insults. And who is much more interesting, or at least much more eye-catching. Right. You can't take your eyes off of him. He's the train wreck that everybody stops to rub a knack-up when you're going along the hump. And he recognizes that attention is dominance. So he's afraid of losing attention? I think he would die without it, yes. I mean, he's afraid also of not being a winner. So he can never be a loser because that he would not exist then. And to be a winner is to be the dominant, the dominant personality, the dominant voice. I mean, the person who, you know, and he will create a situation that the Republican Party is remains beholden to him. So is he just circling back to the first thing that I assumed he was afraid of death? Is he afraid of death because he will cease to. Well, he'll cease to be, obviously. I mean, is he actually afraid of death? Oh, I don't think he, I just won't be around. I think, you know, to be afraid of death, you have to have some level of self-awareness. And he gave that up a long time ago. As I said, he's an empty person inside. It's all external. It's all exterior. So does he think about death? Does he think about tomorrow? Does he think about anything other than what he's thinking about right at this moment? Does he think about anything other than his. Then the attention he is getting at this very moment. No. He's not as other presidents. Right. Right. I mean, there is something so phenomenally broken here. And that's a whole other discussion how this happened. The alcoholic parents, the, you know, the cruelty. I'm sure all of that. I was just watching that Lizzie Borden show on Netflix. You know, I actually had to stop watching it because it's a terrible, you know, it's just. Obviously, she was going to kill her parents. But I think when I was watching, I thought Donald Trump probably had just a terrible, terrible, you know, when he grew up, it was probably terrible. The terrible, horrible father, horrible mother. And anyway, here he is now, horrible, Donald Trump. Well, I found that one of our most interesting conversations to get to his fears. Well, we'll be back on Tuesday with more inside Trump's head. What are your thoughts on that conversation? What are you afraid of? Possibly Donald Trump remaining in power. I'm afraid of everything. You name it, I'm afraid of it. It's not true. It is true. 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