Theology and Books with R.C. Sproul (January 2005)

Welcome to the "Nine Marks Ministries Leadership Interview" series. This interview series is dedicated to equipping church leaders and congregations in the application of biblical principles in the local church, sponsored by Capitol Hill Baptist Church in Washington, D.C., and hosted by its senior pastor, Dr. Mark Devar. The "Nine Marks Ministries Interview" series features in-depth discussions with pastors, theologians, and church leaders from around the world. Joining Dr. Devar today for the second of two interviews is RC Sproul, founder and chairman of Ligonier Ministries based in Orlando, Florida, and author of over 50 books and scores of articles for evangelical publications. He has taught at numerous colleges and seminaries, including "Reformed Theological Seminary in Orlando" and "John Knox Seminary in Fort Lauderdale." He also teaches daily on the renewing your mind radio broadcast. And now, here again is Mark Devar with Dr. RC Sproul. We're here again with RC Sproul, with his kindness. We're getting to talk to him some more about Reformed Theology, and I just said a provocative statement. He got RC going. I said, "RC, I think that the canons of Dort are the best exposition of the gospel I've ever read." What do you think, RC? Well, I would say yes and no. I said on one hand, I'm surprised to hear you say it because there are so few people who would say it, but I think there are a lot more people who actually believe it than who would dare to say it. Because for some reason, Dort has the same kind of pejorative umbrella over it that Calvinism does and the like. But I would say next to the Westminster confession effect. Well, that is beautiful. It's the clearest expression of biblical Christianity. I know of, and like Sprurgeon said, he thought that Calvinism was simply a nickname for biblical theology. And the thing about Dort was that Dort does not define the essence of Calvinism because there's a lot more to the Reformed Theology than the Five Points. But Dort was there when the church desperately needed her to be there because of this departure from Reformation thought that was going on in Holland. Yeah, the Westminster Confession and its documents, including the Larger Georgia Catechisms and the Directory for Worship, Public Worship, which is great. A lot of people don't look at that one. They're extremely good. They're far more comprehensive. I think what I appreciate about Dort is it's really staring at the gospel. And it goes into far more depth even than the Larger Catechism on the gospel. And it's just bringing it out and it's like a long Edwards-like meditation on exactly what we mean by election. And exactly what we mean by depravity. And exactly what we mean by the atonement. I just love it. I just think it's great. And guys, if you're listening, it is in print. You can get copies of it, not just in large things like Pelicans, new creeds of Christendom or Schaff's old creeds of Christendom. But who is the publisher? Maybe Sprinkle. Lloyd Sprinkle does it. But you can find it online. It's in print. Thomas Scott's old translation of it. It's small enough. You can keep it on your church bookstore and your church bookstore or have copies for your leaders to read. Go through it on the gospel. It's great stuff. So, Arceo is going to start by asking, "Does the Bible teach reform theology?" But I guess the answer is yes. That's a pretty good guess, but. Listen, that's not just a stab in the dark, is it? Do you like writing? Boy, that's. He talks about provocative questions, you know. That was a curve ball. Let me just tell you the truth. I used to love writing, and I used to want to do that more than anything else right now. But right now it's the biggest burden in my life. I wish I never had to pick up another pen. Just because of the way your time's pressured or your health? Well, it's a combination of those things. Right now, you know, there's a bad time to ask me seven months of vertigo. Or if I try to write five-page article for a table talk, I have to stop four or five times or have somebody. Okay, ten years ago. Did you like writing? Yes. And why have you liked writing? Has it been because it gives you a way to clarify your own thought? Or it's already clear in your own mind you're just expressing it to others to teach them? Well, let me try to answer that anecdotally. We just had a pastor's conference a couple of weeks ago in Orlando. And we were talking about expository preaching and expanding our ministry. And I was talking about where the power belongs. I wrote a little article that hasn't come out yet for the alliance. And some modern information called power and the Pope's junk. You know, based on Luther's last sermon in 1546 where he said that even though the gospel had been rediscovered, people were still more interested in relics than they were in the gospel. And yet it's in the word that God has invested the power on the salvation. And I was trying to encourage these pastors. I said, don't be deceived by the gimmicks that are out there to try to have a powerful ministry. If you want a powerful ministry, it's got to come in the word. And I said, no, here's an amazing thing. I said, I'm standing here talking to you right now. And this week I will talk to two and a half million people in America on renewing your mind. Not counting the weekend, not counting the international broadcast. Just this week our daily broadcast. And I said, do you realize in this week I will speak to more people about the things of God than the Apostle Paul. Spoke to in his entire lifetime, which blows me away. I said, however, on the other hand, today in the world there are more people reading what the Apostle Paul wrote than will hear me in my lifetime. So I mean, you're limited by your immediate audience when you're speaking orally, but when it comes to the written page. I was just with Peter Hammond the other day, you know who Peter Hammond is. And he's telling me what's going on in the Sudan. He's showing me pictures of his kids carrying rifles. The church has been bombed by the Muslims ten times. These guys can't carry on a worship service without carrying AK-47s. I mean, it's really this is the front line right now. And I'm thinking, where did this guy come from? Where did he get his heroic commitment to missions and all of that? And his commitment to reform faith, he tells me, chosen by God. It's my book, I have no idea. Anybody like that had ever read it or had ever had any impact on it, but that's what books will do. One of the reasons I ask you about writing is because I think you are one of the most gifted teachers in person. I've ever seen. I love watching you teach. I mean, you just got a real gift for that. You enjoy it. The people listen to you enjoy it. I think it's unusual for somebody who's that good orally to also be good in writing. I think that doesn't normally happen. I think you get people like who are really good in writing. But who are put you to sleep? I know you're just talking about yours. I think that happens all the time. So that's why I wonder because you are such an engaging speaker. Do you enjoy writing? Or is it just too lonely, too hard? Well, you know, again, there are different kinds of writing. The greatest story I ever had writing was the novel. But it was sort of like. Now it's just the one that's out of print that we talked about last time. It went all the literary prizes, you know, and it didn't sell anything. But at the point was, what I loved, the literary dimension of that. Because then I could be working upon the artistic craft of it. And that was fun. But I also figured it was kind of self-indulgent. I said, "My task in writing." I mean, I had all kinds of pressure on me to do more novels. But I said, "No." Because you've done that children's. You've done the children's. I've got two children's books out there, "King Without a Shadow" and "Price With 30 Clothes." And were you thinking about your grandkids when you wrote those? Well, yes. But again, that was a case where publishers came to me and said, "How about something for kids?" And of the two, you know, I think the "Price With 30 Clothes" may be the most important thing ever wrote. Yes, yes, my faith. Yeah, that's right. So how many books have you written? Over 60 now. Now, I got to ask you this question. So, aren't you, have you written all of them? You mean myself? Yeah. All but one. One was a series of my lectures that publishing house came and said, "We have a writer that put this in the written form and we'd like to ask you to come back and add it to the final." And I said, "Okay." I think that still counts as writing. Because you did all the generative material. Oh, yeah. And that's how it was. Well, that's the same way French and savers books were written. But if I can get more help like that, then I have more to say. It must be hard for you to get help like that, though, because I would guess you're going to be pretty picky. Yeah. Because you're pretty precise in the points you're trying to make. Exactly. So you're not going to have an easy time getting people that are going to. And I've struggled with how to do it, you know. I write best, I believe. Longhand? Longhand on legal pad. I have friends who I know. I really can, but that's so laborious. It is. Simon, thank you. And when you can do it on the computer. And what I don't like is having the pressure of publication dates. And I have made mistakes publishing, too, where, you know, you have a book that sells well or something. And then all of a sudden the publisher says, "How about doing us a book on this?" And you do it because they want you to do it. Yeah. Rather than it's something that you have a burning desire to do. Yeah. One of the most fun books I've ever had written is one that sold almost none. Uh-huh. It was not a chance. Uh-huh. I was all done with all my multiple book contracts. I didn't have anything to do. I didn't have to write for anybody. I was like, got out of jail free. Right? So I said, "I'm going to just spend a few months." And I'm just, I love to read in the relationship between science and philosophy and all this stuff. And it was driving me nuts the way modern thinkers were getting away with the absurdity of chance. So I started reading a lot about this kind of stuff. And I was so fired up about it. I said, "I got to write on this." And so I did. And I said, "Now, if this is going to go anywhere, you've got to get it into the science section of the bookstores." Not in the religion section. No, they didn't then. There are still people, believe it or not, who have not read any books by you. Oh, I'm sure there's lots of people. I don't know if you're going to be listening to this interview. But if they are, I'm going to give them a couple of interesting suggestions about places to start in reading scroll. Okay. Opera scroll. And it would be these two. Really? Yeah. Your essentials, both published by Tendail, both, I guess, taking smaller things that you'd done and pull them together, or you did all the work, pulling it all together. Well, no, no. There it is. Let me tell you the name of one is Essentials of the Christian Studies of the Christian Studies. I wrote that from start to finish. And that's 100 doctrines in plain language. And it's great summaries. So listen, if you're listening and you just feel man theology is too heavy for me, I don't know how to deal with it. Is this still in print, do you think? Oh, yes. Yeah, it's a great book in which it's not a heavy systematic theology, but it is two pages on the image of God, on the Holy Spirit of sanctifier, on the illumination of the Holy Spirit. Let me just ask this question to somebody who's in the room right now. That's fine. Is that the one that's in Persian now? Or that they're using it? Or it's the other one. Yeah, the other one, the other one I'm holding up friends, is now that's a good question. One of today's most sought-after theologians answers more than 300 frequently asked questions. And that's, that's when we're in the blow dry period. Yeah. But what happened there, that's not just blow dry, that's perm period. That's 25 years. Listen, the first, one of the first table talk editorials I ever read, was when you explain why you changed hairstyles. And that's on Francis Shafers-Nickers. That's right. That's a long time ago. But that went there, and now that's a good question though. I said that I've written all my books, and what happened was that we had our first venture into radio mark, which really was a board of, was we had a five minute program called ASCORCY. And we had people sending questions. Kind of like the Bible Answer Man. And we kept track of all those records, and these are basically the transcripts of the answers to those questions. And this is still in print, too. Oh, yeah. That's a very, very popular book. That's right. Well, so now listen, if you're listening, I want you to know two books, both by cell. I'm listening. Now, I know you are. I'm talking to the thousands of people are, so you are also listening to a talk. His essential truths of the Christian faith is just a great way to begin studying three things. This should be good stuff for you to think of, even maybe in your church bulletins. But just somehow to begin to teach your congregation, basic biblical truths. And the other one, now that's a good question, and he covers all kinds of stuff in here. Questions on apologetics, questions on intimes, questions on sin and salvation. I mean, it's just great stuff. Anything else on these two books, R.C., that you want to tell people to encourage them to look at them? No, but this is the bite-size approach to things. I usually, when people ask me how to read Sproul, I always start with the holiness of God. Well, that's true, too. And that's another way to do it. But I'm just saying, if they've never had anything, this is an easy way to get in where you need to read and start teaching. Yeah. And you're not committed to it. And you can use it as a reference book. It's a reference book. That's right. And one of the amazing things about your writing is the breadth of it. Now, most of your writing, in one way or another, has had to do with reformed theology. So your basic mission in life is to be a popular but academically responsible teacher of reformed, that is, biblical theology, to the laity. I always call myself a battleground theologian. Okay. My heroes were Luther and Calvin. I could have been very happy, Mark, and very disposed to spending the rest of my life in a pure ivory tower situation. But the first part of my life was all athletics. And the name of the game was to get over to Glowline. And the name of the game was a Christian was to win the world, the Christ. And I said, we've lost it in the academic arena. But there's something more important in the academic arena. And that's on the street. And we have to win the battle there. And the academic will come behind it. And the great theologians of history are ones who were able to take their message into the culture, into the street. To simplify without distorting is the highest task of a scholar. Anybody can regurgitate in academic language, what he took on his notebook when he was in graduate school. But he has to understand it, if he can communicate it without distorting it. And so my models were Luther and Calvin. They mastered the material, but they took the material to the people. That's what I want to do. Yeah, if you've never read Calvin's commentaries, and if you teach or preach regularly, you've got to get a hold of a set of Calvin's commentaries. They do not cost much, and they are an incredible commentary on scripture. And even in the skeptical, critical circles, Calvin has still taken seriously. That's right. They have to take him seriously as an exegete. Arsi, who's out there today that's doing that well, that kind of popularizing in a responsible way, that you would tell people to listen to. I mean, certainly yourself for all she wouldn't say what you say. Well, Jim did it. Jim DeBoys did it. And through many of his books, J.I. Packer's done that. For a lot of Packer's things? Yes, and I don't know about the academic side of it, but John Piper is certainly speaking at that level. Well, let's talk about some particular things in biblical theology, reformed theology. The idea of total depravity. Yes. I would say that's not a popular idea today. No. How would you define total depravity? I would define total depravity as corrupt fallen man's moral inability to incline himself to the things of God. That's the origin of it, historically, in the Pelagian, Augustinian controversy. And the concept of total depravity means is that sin has so infected our whole being, not that we're utterly depraved, but that it is so crippled us that we are in bondage to it. And that we are in spiritual death, and morally incapable of inclining ourselves to the things of God, or even cooperating with an offer of grace, until the basic constituent nature of our humanity has changed supernaturally by the invasion of the Holy Spirit. And we would see this from Romans 3, from Ephesians 2. And why is this important for pastors to get a hold of this idea correctly today? Well, I think the first thing that pastors have to learn about this is, again, as I mentioned earlier, where the power is in the Christian life. It's not in our techniques. It's not in our methods. It's not in our eloquence. It's not in a Finnean-esque persuasion. It's in the part of the gospel because I can't get through that hardened heart. It's impossible for me. The only way that I can get through there is through the invasion of the Holy Ghost. And I have to understand that people are incapable morally of making a decision for Christ until they're regenerated first. Because if I don't understand that, what's going to happen again and again, and pastors are doing it all over the place these days, is they will try to manipulate people by making some kind of decision that they can make. And then they confuse faith with the professional faith. That's right. And then we have to construct a whole theology of sanctification to accommodate people who are professing Christians who are not converted. That's right. Oh, and that gets into a huge topic that we at Ninemarks Ministries care a lot about. And I see one of the things I appreciate about your writings is you take depravity seriously. You're so many popular Christian authors out there are, I don't want to just name names, but I think are telling people essentially that they should have better self-esteem, that they should feel good. They're kind of therapeutic and help you. You don't do that at all. You wrote one back in the 80s called the Hunger for Significance. Yes. You want to talk about that book for just a moment. It was our search for personal worth. This is the closest I've heard you to packaging things in a kind of therapeutic way. Well, actually, the original title was that it was in the search of dignity. And that came out of a grassroots application of my theology to the marketplace. When I was back in Western Pennsylvania, I hooked up with a guy who actually had come to Ligonier and gotten turned on from our adult ministries. And he was in the workplace in the steel mills. And he started Bible studies in the steel mills. That's great. And I mean, what happened was nothing short of phenomenal, what took place in the value of the person movement. He ended up losing his job and all the rest of it, but continued this movement. And I helped him. We would hold seminars in the workplace, in steel mills, in hospitals, in all different places. And I would lecture, characteristically, I would lecture in the morning in Fortune 500 headquarters in Pittsburgh, like U.S. Steel, or you, Alcoa, United States Steel Gulf, people liked it. And then in the afternoon, I'd be in the steel halls with the guys, you know, from the union halls. And I would speak before groups where we would have members of the American Communist Party sitting in the front row with their tape recorders trying to catch me on something. And the basic thing that I was getting at, that my apologetic approach to these guys was this. We basically said that the great hostility and warfare that went on between labor and management in Pittsburgh was the first or second leading union headquarters in the United States. And so we were commonly involved with labor disputes, with the coal miners, with the steel workers, and so on. And basically, our assumption was this, that the root of the hostility was not economic. It was having to do with personal significance and dignity. We would go to these meetings, and I would open up with what I said. And let me ask this question, I said, "How many of you people in here are Steeler fans?" Well, some of them would be, and some of them would be Cleveland fans. How many of you are Penn State fans? Yes, some are Pitt fans. How many of you are Republican? How many are Democrats? How many of this? How many of that? Couldn't get anybody to agree on anything. It's like, let me ask you this. How many of you people want to be treated with dignity in the workplace? Every single human being raised their hand. I said, "Okay." Now, here's one we'll tell you. In and of yourself, you have no dignity. And there's no reason for you to be treated like dignity, unless you're made in the image of God. And I would unabashedly give them a theology for dignity. And they would listen like they wouldn't listen any other way. Now, just so I have to, this is going on when all this self-help stuff was going on. But that was not my motivation to make people feel good or to have that. But we also understood I had a good friend of mine who was deeply involved in counseling, and he was a Christian, but he was a very knowledgeable, insightful thinker. And he was saying really what is happening here is that every human being is created with an aspiration for significance. Everybody wants their life to count. And this is what sin is. It's virtue run amok. God makes Adam and Eve, gives them an aspiration for significance. And that aspiration for significance becomes a quest for deity, a quest for autonomy. And they're a virtue to once your life to be meaningful, to once your life to count is not a sin. I mean, I want my ministry to count, don't you? But at the same time, that can put me right on the ladder of Nietzsche's will to power. And into the worst of sin. So you're saying that you can believe in depravity and dignity? Absolutely. This is what I would say in this book, and I would say in these people, I say, look, I said, you people have this view of Calvinism. Where, you know, Calvin makes statements mistaken. I was not a guard of statement when Calvin said, babies are depraved as rats. I said, I wish Calvin wouldn't say that. That's one of the few places I disagree with Calvin because it's a gross insult to the rat. That's why you're such a good teacher. Because the rat couldn't do anything wrong. The rats just running around chasing the cheese and running away from cats away. God made him. But that infant who was made to bear the image of God, you know, is a blasphemer. Okay, Tim has heard this a hundred times and he's over there laughing. But I was saying the thing that's true. Now, the reason you think that we have a low view of people when we talk about total depravity is this. No theology takes man as seriously as Calvinism does because no theology takes sin as seriously as Calvinism does. And it's only if we're significant in this universe that our sin matters at all. And the thing about it is that when I sin against God, I violate you. I violate me. And that's a desperately evil thing. But you have to have, but if we are cosmic accidents, if we're grown up germs, okay, who've emerged from the slime, then who cares who sits on the back of the bus or on the front of the bus? It doesn't matter. Humanism has both faith planted in mid-air. They borrow their capital from us. Where they want to say Christianity says that people have worth. They're morally worthless. That's the irony. Is that we are unworthy, yet God says that everyone who bears his image has worth, but it's not an inherent worth. It's an assigned worth. It's not an inherent dignity. It's a derived dignity. That's what I would argue with in these still mills and stuff with these kids. They would listen. They never heard anything like that. And is this still in print hunger for significance? Yeah, it's a good book, a good treatment of justice. But I can understand in somebody saying, well, Sproul has gone into the self, you know, narcissistic self-esteem. But that's not at all. I think one of your most popular books I assume must have been The Holiness of God. You wrote that a couple of years later in '85. Do you want to talk about this for just a moment? You were writing this because you thought people were just misunderstanding God. They had too high of you of man. They had too low of you of God. I had a consultant come to our ministry many, many years ago and say, help me focus on what we were doing and priorities and said, what's the most important thing that you can teach people who are not Christians don't know? And I said, that's easy. They don't know who God is. They know that God is. Romans 1 makes secular. But they don't know who he is. His nature, his character has been completely obscured and eclipsed in our day. He said, okay, he says, well, let's get away from that. Let's go to church and the Christian world. What's the most important thing that Christians don't know that they need to know? I said, that's easy too. Who God is? The character of God. And the thing that drove me is a Christian. And in my own background studies, there's a big difference between Augustine and Aquinas and Aquinas and Luther and Luther and Calvin and Calvin and Edwards. But like C.S. Lewis, there's a certain sadness there. When you read those guys, every one of them has been wiped out by their sense of the transcendent majesty and holiness of God. And I think as soon as we lose that, theology becomes religion. And it's like the first petition of the Lord's Prayer, Jesus said, you want to know how to pray first thing you pray for is how it would be in my name. That we pray for the sanctity of the Father. And so I think the single most important thing that we need to have is an awakening to the character of God. So you must have been encouraged in 73-point Packers knowing God came out. Oh, yeah. I was shocked. Just everybody else was shocked that it would be his bestseller. Because I said, that's what we needed. We needed the doctrine of God when I think of so much of my writings about the dog. But now 20 years later, it's 20 years after that. No, no, no, it's 10 years after that. 85, 85. You write the holiness of God. Evangelicals were just still not thinking about it enough. There was people were not. Well, I don't know. Is that the date? I don't know. But then anyway, I was long before that, I had given lectures all over the place on this subject. And the most response I was getting from people, if anything, I was teaching was on that subject and it came time for me to put it on paper. You wrote one on the heart of Reform Theology, Grace Unknown in 1997. Horrably titled. It's really a summary of what the solos and the five points. No, it's more than that. It's basically trying to answer the question, what is Reform Theology? The point I want to make in this book is that it's not just the five points. I take the time to explain the five points, but also try to show the other aspects of Reform Theology. When I wrote that, when you know what I had in mind, I had deacons and elders and church officers in mind. That book was written for them. And is it working for that? Not to the great. What a lot of people are using it that way, but I think it's so poorly titled. I think of it. I wanted to title it. What is Reform Theology? And they said, that's too pedestrian, you know. That's back in the days of Swindle's, like strengthening your grip. What's that about? Okay, listen, if you're listening to this, let me just encourage you think about Grace Unknown in the heart of Reform Theology. And then you've written a more recent one on the same track 97, "Willing to Believe," the controversy over free will. What's going on in that one? You can kind of go through the history of the debate over free will and over really over total poverty. Over the degree of fallenness in that we all churches believe in original sin, but they don't agree on the extent of original sin. So I start with the Pelagian, Augustinian controversy and go through those controversies throughout history. And I personally know how Luther wrote all those 50 some volumes and everything and asked him what his most important work was. And so this K.E. Wonvura was his Galatians commentary and he thought the most important thing I wrote was Freedom and Bonnie's the Will. Well, I don't know that this is the most important thing I wrote, but I think it's one of the most important things. "Willing to Believe," the controversy over free will. So if you've got theological questions about Reform Theology as a whole, maybe think about getting these two. Sproul's Grace Unknown, the heart of Reform Theology, published by Baker, and then willing to believe the controversy over free will. Where he looks at how Christians have dealt with this over the last 2000 years. But far and away the book that has done the most to change people's minds that I'm aware of is chosen by God. Yeah, yeah, that's a great one. I want to come to that in just a moment, but I want to ask you about one more you've just written recently, given current events you did with another writer called The Dark Side of Islam. You want to talk about this one for just a moment. It's not right now in your track of the kind of things you've written before. This is basically dialogue form. I grew out of some radio interviews that I had with an expert in Orthodox Muslim thought. And you realize, of course, that just like Christianity is broken up in a Catholic Protestant liberal conservative, so that's true of the Muslim religion. And, of course, what's going on since 9/11 with the Osama bun ladens and people like that, they're considered the lunatic fringe. And what we're trying to say is no. They represent Islamic Orthodoxy. And that one of the things we're trying to overcome is the widespread idea that's been communicated politically in this country that Islam is fundamentally a religion of peace. There are lots of peaceful Muslims. There are lots of moderate Muslims, but at that point they have departed from the Korean. Yeah, that's a long and interesting conversation I'd love to have, but we better not right now. The idea of unconditional election. You've mentioned chosen by God your book will turn to that in just a second. The basic idea is what? That God sovereignly, according to his own good pleasure from all eternity, chooses to save some and not others by grace alone. Not based on anything foreseen in me or you, but only for his glory and that his son may see the travail of his soul and be satisfied with the gifts of the Father to the Son. And I don't know how, I don't know how that thing could be stated more clearly than Paul does in the ninth chapter of Rome. I ducked and touched it, weaved around it as much as other people do all the time too, as long as I could, until finally Edwards rubbed my nose. I know God had to have chosen me beforehand before I was born, because he would never have chosen me afterward. And I know he had to choose me for no reason to myself while I'm looking in and I can find none and he just keeps going through all these rhetorical questions, which is true. We see that our salvation must be by grace. Anyway, you talk about that in chosen by God, which you think might be your most important book. As far as impacting people's thinking, why did you write this in back in '86? You know, at that time, I'd written, already written, a holiness of God and my strategy before. I was trying to awaken people, the character of God. And I thought if I could get convinced that God really is holy, maybe it wouldn't be such a huge step from that to the idea that God is really sovereign. Though I had this feeling when I wrote to chosen by God that maybe I was writing for the choir. I thought maybe the only people that will ever read it or people are already persuaded of it, and I thought that's okay. If I can help reform people, understand their thinking, their heritage better than it's worth it. I had no dream of the multitude of people, the literally thousands and thousands of people, who became convinced of reform theology as a result of reading that book. Well, it's another good primer on predestination and election. People are not going to pick up Lorraine Betner's 400-page hardback book by somebody they don't know. I often thought about writing a book like that on election, a much more technical thing, but I said, "What can I add? The Taroton already has right on it." Much more recently in '99, you wrote this, "Getting the Gospel Right," the tie that binds Evangelicals together. Now, this was essentially because of some of the confusion in the Evangelical community, because of the ECT and others. Again, we're in a time where the Gospel has been eclipsed. There is so much confusion about what the Gospel is. People think the Gospel is having a personal relationship with Jesus. The Gospel has an objective content to it. It's the historical work of a historical person, included within it how the benefits of his ministry are appropriated to us by faith alone and so on. The Gospel is not just any Sunday school lesson that we teach. There is a definitive content to the Gospel, and that's what this book is about. If you're looking, if you're a preacher, and you're looking for a one-way-indusprall, here would be another way you could get in. I mentioned a way earlier. I think this would be a good way to get you right into understanding justification of my faith along the very core of the Gospel. It's not that long a book, and it has some contemporary things in it too that will interest you, and it's not much more than 100 pages. It would be a good one. And then part of, was it from this book or a separate thing that you wrote the little booklet justified by faith alone? That was a separate little. That's one of those series from age. It's a great little summary of justification. Well, I've lectured on justification so many times. I had to be able to summarize this. It's a little booklet about 48 pages long, published by Crossway. And does this get used much, do you know? I don't know. Faith alone does. You know, my bigger book. While we're thinking about the Gospel, then tell us about the Atonement. Or see, what is the Atonement? Oh, wow. My best treatment of that is in one of my most recent books saved from what? And I have to say, Mark, of our video series, an audio series at Ligonier, the one that's had the widest play has been Holiness of God, and then chosen by God. But we have one called the Cross of Christ, which doesn't get- You don't have a book called that? No, okay. And we have in that the Cross of Christ series, that has not had anywhere near the widespread distribution that the other ones have. But it's one of those things where it's been one of the most impactful things we've ever done. People Christians seem to think they know what the Cross is all about. And they haven't really looked at the Atonement. And that's the response I'm getting from, say, from what? Because I spend a lot of time in there explaining exactly what happened on the Cross. Now, RC, if they went to- And on the Cross, what did happen is- Well, what it was on the Cross was they're multifaceted. Aspects of the biblical understanding the Cross. But there is real propitiation for our sins. There's a real satisfaction of God's justice. Where Christ really takes upon himself the curse of the Old Testament. He's cursed of God on the Cross in a horrific way in our behalf. And what we're safe from is from the wrath of God. But see, people don't care about the gospel because they don't believe in the law. They don't believe in a God who's capable of wrath. They've been sold this liberal bill of goods that God loves everybody unconditionally. And if God loves me unconditionally, that means that if I sin, it doesn't matter. I mean, it's not going to change my relationship with God. There's no threat of judgment. There's no exposure to wrath. But the New Testament sees salvation as rescue from the wrath of God. And that's what happens on the Cross. If you're thinking of what you can do in the spring sometime, you might want to try to get this series of Cross of Christ from Ligonier Ministries. Is this an audio or video series? You got those. And you just go to the website, Ligonier Ministries or Ligonier.org. And you look under resources online store and you can find the Cross of Christ. That would be a great thing for you if a pastor, if you're thinking through how to teach your congregation and yourself about the Cross of Christ. You wrote a book on the life of Christ, including the Cross called The Glory of Christ, a number of years back. Any thought coming on this? Why did you sort of do a life of Christ book? Well, it's not a life of Christ book. Notice the title, The Glory of Christ. Throughout the ministry of Jesus, we usually think of a progression from humiliation to exultation. In the incarnation, he sets aside his glory. And he goes through the indignity of being born as a peasant job and so on. And then he's under the father's authority throughout his life. He's aided and killed and all the rest. But the point that it also is that even though there is this normal progression from humiliation to exultation, there are moments in the life of Jesus where the glory breaks through. Like a Ron Bethlehem outside, you know, when the glory goes on, is about when the voice from heaven comes that's the baptism at preemptively at the transfiguration. Was this a sermon series you did? No. It was an idea. I'm so excited about The Glory of Christ that I decided to do that. And this book was written, this book is published anonymously. I mean, it's probably one of the least selling books I've ever, but it was one of the ones I most delighted writing. Oh, I can imagine. It was such a thrill to my soul. That one and the soul's quest for God was another one that I really love writing. You mentioned just a moment ago, saved from what? That's a newer one in that you do talk about both our sin, God's wrath, but you do talk about clearly. You've got four or five chapters on the cross. Yeah. That's my clearest teaching on the cross and on imputation. Okay, right there in save from what? So if you have questions about the cross or imputation, it's 2002 crossway. R.C. Sproul saved from what? Yes. So that would be a good one to get. Do you believe in irresistible grace? She's that way to me. Trust that's Vesta's middle name. Anyway, do you think that's a good way to express it? No, I don't like that term. It fits the acoustic nicely. But irresistible grace somehow gives communicates the idea that God's grace is something that I can't or won't resist. There's no grace that God ever gives us that we won't fight against. It's irresistible in the sense that the grace of regeneration cannot be quenched by our lack of willingness, that it's a factual grace. This is our doctrine of a factual calling. So those that the Father has elected and the Son has died for the spirit draws. These are new draws in the sense of compels. He brings them to himself. But we're not unwilling. He makes us willing. The unwilling are made willing. You know, just this past weekend at our church, I'm teaching through Dust to Glory, our overview of the Bible. And we came to the conversion of Paul. It's a great title, Dust to Glory. And when I talked about Paul's conversion under Odend Damascus, I spent a long time with being a class, giving them a portrait of the pre-converted Paul. And likened him to a son of Bunlad, or of Adolf Eichmann, who was on a, I mean, a raging vendetta to exterminate the world of Christians. I mean, he really was. Even he was instituting his own private all across. He wasn't seeking after the Lord by any means. And you know what happens on the roads of Damascus where he's breathing out fire. Can't wait to grab more people and throw them in prison and kill them. Christ knocks them to the ground. Blinds them. Why are you persecuting me? And it's also, you know, who is it, Lord Jesus identifies himself? And what does he say? What do you want me to do? There was an instantaneous change of the will of that man. It wasn't cooperating with anything. God, the Holy Spirit knocked him off his horse and changed his heart right then and there. Now, Arsene, you know one of the things that people object to about this idea of irresistible grace, or what's your preferred effectual grace? One of the objections people had this idea of effectual grace is, well, if God's going to do that, then why do we need to do anything? Well, I would just change that to say, well, there's two answers to that. I don't know why we don't. We don't need to. He does not need us. He doesn't need your preaching. He doesn't need my preaching. He doesn't need my teaching. He doesn't need my books. God can bring souls to Himself unilaterally directly from heaven if He wants to. But it's not why do we need to. It's why do we get to? That's a good way to put it. I mean, how beautiful in the mind of the feet of those who are good, He has chosen the foolishness of preaching as the means through which He exercises that effectual grace. And He lets us participate and lets us plant, lets us water all the while knowing that all of our planting, all of our watering will bring no fruit unless He doesn't. Well, that's why, and that's one of the reasons I guess you've been so active in apologetics. Because that's one of the means that God uses. And the other thing is that we're required to do it. We're commanded to do it. Listen, on our earlier talk, we talked about apologetics. I want to just quickly, though, go through a bunch of books, but I mean quickly. Okay. You've written on apologetics just to let people know that they're out there. If there is a God, why are there atheists? This must be one of your first books. Very early, it was originally entitled The Psychology of Atheism. It was meant to answer the biggest argument people gave us, the only reason we were believers is because it means I'm some psychological crotch or bromide or so. And I'm trying to say, based on Romans 1, that the crutches for the other leg. There's a psychology that's anti-God, that this is the fallen heart that doesn't want God in His thinking. And I go through a little brief introduction to people like Sergeant Nietzsche and people like. Still available? Yes. Okay, great. And then has to be one of your most well-known books, Reason to Believe. Yes, that's been very widespread. How is this useful? Here's how that happened. My friend at Evangelism Explosion, Archie Perry, E and Fort Lauderdale, they kept track of all the questions and objections that people raised over many, many years of that. And they collided them and they came to me and said, "Here are the 10 most frequent objections that we hear. Would you write us a book to help us to answer these objections?" And so that's what that was written. That's great. And it's been well-used over the years. All of your work with the International Council of Biblical Inherency, and since that was kind of apologetic. So this little commentary that you wrote on the-- Explaining Inherency. Chicago's Statement. And my book on how to interpret it probably knows. It's been one of my biggest sign books and knowing scripture. You also wrote maybe the best brief guide to Christian ethics I've ever seen. Ethics in the Christian. Do people still use this? Oh, yes. You know, our congregation is on Capitol Hill and I get asked pretty frequently. I was asked this last week by somebody. Can you tell me a good Evangelical book on personal ethics? I thought Murray's Principles of Christian comment. Oh, that's a classic. I mean, that's one of my favorite John Davies up in Gordon. Yeah, John Davis, that's right. Davis, I mean. Yeah, John Jefferson Davis. But this is more brief and just excellent. Yes, to the principles, right away. So it might, maybe, can be available well for people, at least in Washington. We could use it anyway. And then, of course, your big magnum opus on apologetics, kind of your classical apologetics you do with art lensly and John Gerstner. I did the first half and Gerstner did the second, you know, art did a little bit on the history partner. Uh-huh. Yeah, are you pleased with this? Is this still available? Oh, yes. Yeah. And it gets used a lot in apologetic classrooms. Yeah, and it's basic thrust is not just a critique of. No, no, no, it's a position of, it's a positive statement, classical, for the existence of God and scripture. Now, I've given a simplified version and the latest book that just came out, defending your faith. Okay. That's just out. Okay. Uh, life views? Yes, that's the other one where we see how Christianity relates to different isms like pragmatism, humanism, secularism, existentialism, positivism, and that sort of thing. Sort of like a universe next door, but maybe more consistently reformed. Yeah. It would be that. And then your book on the mystery of the Holy Spirit. Right. Uh, on the Spirit's personal work, what were you doing writing this? Well, that was part of 1990. 1990, again, that was 10 Dale. They had the work on, on the Holies of God, which was on the Father. Right. The glory of Christ. On the Son. And they wanted this on the Holy Spirit as a part of the Holy Spirit. Now, I know. Friends, you can rearrange your books, your bookshelves. They even send them out in a little book or a little thing as a trilogy. All right. Well, good, good to know. And then here's the one that you mentioned earlier on science, not a chance. Right. Um, which I noticed you dedicated to Stanley Yocky. Yeah. Uh, Savior of science. That's a great book, too. Oh, yeah. You know, we're written several. Yeah. And that was the kind of thing that it was those kind of writings that inspired you to try to popularly explain to people. Look, this is what's going on. Yeah. Christianity has actually supported the rise of science as we know it. Right. Yeah. Yeah. So, and listen, R.C. says, this one hasn't sold. People haven't known what to do with it. If you're at all interested in science, if you've got engineers in your congregation, maybe think if getting a copy of not a chance. The biggest criticism I get from people who do read it is that they're all constantly said, "I don't understand quantum physics." And I say, "No." I tell you at the beginning I'm not a physicist. What I'm trying to tell you is what I do understand is the philosophy of language and meaningful discourse. And then what you guys are saying in describing quantum mechanics is nonsense. And you may understand it, but you're not speaking of it in the coherent way. And then they'll sort of say, "Well, we can't because it's not coherent." I said, "Then you don't know what you're talking about." Three more kind of evangelistic apologetic ones choosing my religion. R.C. is told for teenagers. Oh, yes. That's been everywhere of that one. We actually used it at our church a little bit. We got our teenagers to read through it a couple of years ago. Well, there are videos. It's a companion. Yeah, we do. Yeah, pretty cool of the videos. Yeah. And then your book consequences of ideas? That's one of my favorites. An overview of philosophy. Yeah, and you do it. You do it person by person. Don't you know the chapters? Yes. It was kind of easy to go through. He gives you a history of philosophy. And I get a lot of feedback from college students. You know, they're getting murdered in their classroom. Yeah, because of the philosophy professors. So if you want an intro to philosophy, if you're an evangelical, consequences of ideas, take off on Richard Weaver's title. Ideas that are. I wasn't aware of it, but. Okay. And then you're new when you mentioned, defending your faith. Right. Well, you got a whole bookstore here. Come on, R.C. Talking about this for a second. So what is it? This is taking the heavier stuff that's in classical apologize. Okay. And stating it for what we call the functionally literate lay person. That's not easy. Yeah. It's not simple. Yeah. But it's easier than classical apologetics. Okay. And this was just come out. So you're. That's on the case for the existence of God and the truth of the Bible. Excited about that. Okay, last doctrine to ask you about. Perseverance of the Saints. Yes. I got to say, R.C., you know, I'm a Southern Baptist. I think you can't help that. I will. It's like depravity. You're going that way. I was. That doctrine is abused when my Southern Baptist friends talk about once saved, always saved. Yeah. And I'm scared they've never been saved in the first part. Right. You know. But it's a precious doctrine. You want to spell it out for us for a second? I prefer to speak of preservation of the Saints because. I mean, our confidence. One of the things that we're told in a New Testament is to make our election and calling sure. Second beautiful. For practical reasons. For our sanctification. If I can get the assurance of my salvation, not just today, but also for tomorrow. To know that what God has started in my life, he's not going to stop in the middle. He's going to keep me. To know that I'm being prayed for every day by my high priest to preserve my souls. That gives me a confidence and a boldness to actually persevere when I feel like giving up. Because I know that my final perseverance is not based on my strength or my ability, but because he's holding on to me. I use this simple and illustrative, I'm sure you've heard it a million times. A little boy walking down the street with his father. There's two ways they can hold hands. The little one can hang on to his father's hand. But then also he can let go and run out in front of a car and it's all over. Or the father can hold on to the little one saying, "And which one's safer?" And that's the way I see perseverance. It's the father's holding me. He promised us an eternal inheritance. And this started in the eternity. It's going to end in the eternity. In fact, it doesn't end in the eternity. That great Puritan Richard Sibs had a great quote in which he said, "The mother and child hold each other, but the safety isn't the fact that the mother holds the child." Actually, the last stuff I want to do is you've written some excellent books on the Christian life. And just like we do with apologetics, I want to quickly let people know about those. See if you have any comment on those. You may have thought we covered all of them. But actually, you've got some excellent on the Christian life. You mentioned knowing scripture, useful book for people to read. One of your earliest books. And one of the earliest ones that's been used in colleges and seminaries all over the place that give people practical understanding of how to interpret the Bible, how not to deal with the scripture. And who publishes that over here these days? Ivey. And if I was to press open, we're still doing great. And this, God's will in the Christian, is one of the best books out there on guidance. But I don't know if it's still out there. It needs to be if it's not. On our Nine Marks website, we have a special section of about 12 books reviewed on guidance. Because there's so much bad teaching on that. So Nine Marks ministry is great stuff on that. And we've reviewed, I think yours is one of those we've reviewed. And it's very good. But I don't know if people can get it today. But how would you like to work for us? Probably. I'm doing that right now, brother. And then your book, Pleasing God? Anything on this particularly? It's a, it looked to me, you wrote it in 88, it looked to me kind of like. It's R.C. Sproul, Redos, John Whites, the fight, more reformed. But maybe with a dose of desiring God thrown in. Yeah, well, it's again, it's a guide to sanctification. Yeah. And spiritual growth. Yeah. Because that's what we're trying to do is please God. Have you ever thought about it titled in this one? How to grow as a Christian? No, I haven't. And that might, that might be-- We did put this little book out a couple years ago. Five things every Christian needs to grow. Yeah. I'll come to that one just a second. Okay. You've written several on suffering. Yes. Sprice. It's pride by suffering. Yeah. That came out of a series of lectures I gave at M.D. Andersson in Houston for terminal cancer patients. It's a touching book. I haven't read all of it, but I've read parts of it. And it was a, you do just such a good job. Again, this is for this is where I get responses that are from people who have experienced tragedy. And then you reflected on that even more theologically in 1996, the Invisible Hand. Another one. Another one in my favorite books. For good. It's under doctrine of providence. That's right. And you look particularly at the problem of evil. Yes. Inspired by things like suffering. Right. So if you're a pastor and you're having a hard time knowing how to help people deal with suffering. Maybe you don't give them this book, but maybe you yourself read this book to get a better grip on things called the Invisible Hand. Do all things really work for a good. Of course, referencing a Romans 8.28. Right. And then you did one on eschatology the last days according to Jesus. Where did this come from? 1998. What's going on? A lot of people wonder where that came from. That basically has its roots in my exposure to critical scholarship and seminary. Where. I mean, is this how we're just close to 2000? No, hammered at constantly about the perusia delay issue. Yeah. And for my studies with C.H. Dodd and Cailer Martin Cailer and other such people who really saw 70 AD as the most ignored epoch or event in Christian history. And the idea, again, listen to the skeptics saying that Jesus was a false prophet because he predicted in the all of this course his return. And judgment within a generation. And I've never been satisfied with what evangelicals have handled that language, that time frame reference language in the all of this course. And basically, this is an attempt to show that what Jesus was teaching in the all of this course was about 70 AD. Now, I can be wrong about that, but I'm certainly not denying the second. Oh, no. No, I'm not a full preterist. A lot of full preters have tried to claim me, but I'm not. But what I'm trying to say, like Jay Adams has been trying to do is, hey, Christian church, look seriously at the significance of what happened. And think of the, I mean, so many people, they think that everything in the Bible with future prophecy was only written for the very last generation of people who live in the world. Yeah. But there's so much of that was directed to the first century church and what they were going through. Yeah. Okay, two more small ones. The one you just mentioned, five things every Christian needs to grow, Bible study prayer, worship, service, stewardship. You didn't mention the church. That just surprised me. What's worship about? Okay. Is that what you'd say? Yeah. What do you mean? Yeah. And then when worlds collide, just came out with last year, where is God, post 9/11? Is this sort of a shorter version of the invisible hand just specifically applied? Yes. Yeah. It's more, it's more specifically applied, as you said, to timely thing where people were struggling with it. I was asked to do that again. So you might be able to use this with a non-Christian friend. I mean, your church might be able to get, you know, get a sonny soul class to get 10 copies of this and pray the Lord would lead you to non-Christian friends you work with or in your family you could give a copy of this too. 9/11, you know, opened up so many more avenues, as you know, for discussion with people than anything. Anything I can think of in our day. Yeah. Are you kind of concluding question? Things you most appreciate about the current scene in American Evangelicalism? The recovery of interest in puritanism, the recovery of concern of reformational theology. And the, it's very small, but there is a revival of interest in the classical worship. Things you most concerned about? The opposite of those. The clips of the gospel, the loss of understanding of the gospel, the liberalization and secularization of Evangelicalism. Evangelicalism has made such a radical term to the left in my lifetime that I hardly even recognize the term Evangelical anymore. My biggest concern is the secularization of worship in our culture, where we've made our churches basically pagan-sensitive. Yeah. Well, with that, there is so much we can talk to you about, brother, you have been so generous with your time. Thank you very much, may the Lord bless your ministry. And because I know if he does, he'll bless us. Oh, thank you, Mark. It's always great for me to be with you. Thank you, brother. God established the church as a display of His glory amidst the world of human sin and suffering. Sadly, we too often see that display obscured when the church follows the dictates of cultural trends and faithless methodological pragmatism. Yet we believe that the church can again convey God's blender in local church life. To that end, 9 Mark's Ministry's primary mission is to equip and encourage local churches in the application of biblical principles. You can learn more about our mission and what the 9 Marks are by visiting our website at www.9Marks.org. On this website, you'll gain access to literature, online instruction and audio resources. Again, the web address is www.TheNumber9MARKS.org. You may also contact us toll-free at 888-543-1030 or write us at 9 Marks Ministries, 525A Street, Northeast, Washington, DC-2002. Thank you for listening and for your prayerful support.