"Them With a Heart of Who" (w/ Bobby Finger + Lindsey Weber)

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Make money on Depop with no selling fees and find what you want for less. Hey everybody, it's me, Matt, and my tour is on sale now. This time, it's really Christmas. You can go to www.me. MattRogersOfficial.com. Podcasts are a visual medium. If you're not watching me right now, I am holding in my hands my vinyl. It's called Have You Heard of Christmas? The answer to that question is coming. At this time, it's really Christmas. I'm playing all over the country and in London and in Canada. That makes it a world tour. Harry Styles, you're on burn notice. I'll see you soon. I'm gonna mix up cottage cheese in a blender and I'm gonna say that it's cheesecake. Uh-huh. That's not what that is. It's offensive. It's gaslighting. It's making a costume out of cuisine. Drag balons and gay bars not on my plate. Look, Matt. Oh, I see. Wow. Bowen, look over there. Wow. Is that culture? Yes. Wow. Las Culturistas. Ding dong. Las Culturistas calling. Did you hear what I heard before while we were changing to get ready for this episode? Rachel has never tried Diet Coke. Oh, yeah. You guys, don't worry about it. Leave her. Leave her alone. Wait, Rachel, head of photo, has never tried Diet Coke? What does head of photo have to do with that? I'm just saying. I didn't try my Diet Coke. What do you think? What did you think? It was okay. It was okay. She doesn't drink coffee. That's great. Okay. So was it bullying that got you there, or? Yeah. Is there something about caffeine just as a molecule that is tough? Yeah, I mean, do you want, like, the personal story and then the real problem? Oh, my God. Okay. Wow. That's what I thought it would be. See, and this, can I ask you something? I knew it was gonna be this. Let me tell you something. This actually speaks to a larger issue, which is this is why you don't follow up on a podcast. This is why when you have someone come on the podcast, you just let them say whatever and you don't follow up 'cause you don't know what you could be uncovering. Someone could have a heart problem. There's reasons why. There's always a reason. It's like-- She was not avoiding it out of spite. No. And I hope you guys feel a lot of shame-- You brought it up. --for what you've done. Oh, God! I also have a heart problem. I drink a lot. And you love it. We can't talk about that right now. Sense and sensibility, I'm telling you. That's what it is in play right now. She has a heart problem and sense and sensibility. One of them is like, I shan't-- yeah, exactly. That's what the movie is about. I shan't try Diet Coke because you have to act within reason. One must-- If I were to-- one must not sip caffeine. One must be all together. You love one must culture. You are so one must. I have never heard you call out-- My love and lust for one must. Matt dips into this sort of register. One must. He loves to play like-- Stop it. --a woman. No, I'm just going to say a woman telling, being didactic, being like-- Thank you. We were trying to come up with a genre of film. And maybe our guests can help with this because I'm just going to say-- They know it all. Well, before we bring our guests in, everyone calm down because they think-- everyone, our listeners, people beyond our listenership think that we are trying to be-- to be actual cultural critics and have any salient cultural thought. The premise of this podcast is that we don't and that we are not qualified to talk about it. I don't know. I think I give really salient takes. OK. But Matt and I were trying to come up with the genre of film last night with a fellow podcaster, Amy Poehler, because she was like, what is it called when-- it's "Notes on a Scandal," it's "Doubt," when like-- Yes. Like, you know-- a woman, sort of like a buttoned-up woman, is wagging her finger going, I see what's going on here. A finger film. We called it a finger drama. Finger drama. A finger drama. A finger drama. A finger drama. One where it's like, you are not young. It's like, that's a finger drama wherein Dame Judi Dench type waves a finger. And then what happens is that woman gets a finger waved in her face by the end of the movie. By society and culture. By society and culture, for sure. Think about that. Think about that. Anyway, we're all jacked up on caffeine behind and in front of the camera. And we're so excited because-- I wonder if this has ever been said to them before. Your favorite podcast's favorite podcast, in the words of true them, "Chaperone," based on them-y drag queen, Sasha Colby's original, your favorite drag queen's favorite drag queen, she being a who to maybe some of you, Katie's out there. But a them to-- I would say Sasha is a them to them. She was a them to Chaperone, and that's all that really mattered at the end of the day. There you go. They host Two Weekly, the podcast where you learn everything about the celebrities you don't. True legends, true beautiful minds, very authors now. Yeah, show it. This is-- I want to be famous. Yeah. I want to be famous when everybody and nobody's a celebrity. Oh, shit. That's exactly how you read it. Yeah. No, that's it. I love chapter six. That's how you do it. I actually opened to chapter 10. OK, all jokes aside, this is-- as Matt and I are writing our own book, we go, oh, this is how you're supposed to do that. Bowen goes, I think we have to stop and write the book better. And I was like, huh. No, not that we're not doing-- no, I read this book, and it's honestly, it's inspiring and motivating. In the sense that I'm just like, right, we owe it to ourselves to write a great book like this. Yes, and the reason we're inspired by it is because it is not only funny, it's super smart. It's exhaustive. I mean, it's sourced. This is really-- I mean, it's the pop culture book of the year in terms of my-- what I think and my culture critic brain. Who the fuck am I? Hey, but you know what I mean. Who them? He refuses to accept that he's a them. And I need you guys. I don't think our guests would say that I'm a them. Well, let's bring them in. You're a lucky day. Everyone, please welcome alphabetically-- Yes, Bobby Finger and Lizzy Webber. Bowen, you're kind of a them. He's a full them. But you know what that means? We can't talk about you on the podcast. Yes, it's over. And that's so beautiful. No, no, no, I think this is what I want to present to you guys. And I read it by Matt and by the people in this room. I am-- I might be a them to who's-- and a who's to them's. And you guys have explored this. A them to who's and a who to them's. To who's I am a them, maybe, and to them's I am a who. Interesting. You've come across them's in which you are a who in those situations? Never. He has never come across a them. Reese Witherspoon flagged him down at the Emmys. You were with Amy Poehler last night, you said. Both of us were. Amy Poehler, I think, would call you a them. And I think you know that. Because we were-- we had the same job. You know what I mean? Well, no, no, no, no. And your job was what? What? What was the job? Being a podcaster. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. A podcaster. It is an interesting phenomenon, though, to be in the position-- and by the way, can you just break down what's a them and what's a who for those who have not been able to read it? The diagram is a circle of our relationship. But you guys-- you guys go ahead. OK, we kind of use a dated metaphor at this point. But picture it. You're at the grocery store in, let's say, 2001. Yes. Or you're at a Hudson News in the airport. A Hudson News in the airport. Today, in 2026. They have more magazines. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You're getting a $10 bag of-- of Guardettos or Chex Mix. Yes. And to your left, you see a wall of magazines. On the cover of those magazines are celebrities. The celebrities that you go, oh, them, like Denzel Washington, Jennifer Garner, Bowen Yang. Those are them. Oh, I know who that is. I love them. Most of the celebrities, though, you will not recognize. And those are the who's. Those are the ones that make you go, who's that? Yes. They're clearly prominent. It is obviously relative. Yes. It's obviously an answer to kind of our splintered celebrity landscape. Again, people will think you're them who pay attention to the stuff that you do. But then sometimes you break out of them-dom, and you're Tom Cruise. Right. And everyone knows who you are. Exactly. Or you're Jesus. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I think it's them. It's them. Jesus, Beyonce, Taylor Swift. Jesus, Beyonce, Taylor Swift are basically the them-iest them. Kind of. And so my argument was that Bowen Yang, like, he, in several ways, is now firmly a them. But it is interesting because there is a self-consciousness. That comes with that that I think is based on your humility. But it is interesting because it is inarguable that you have crossed that threshold into them. Whether or not that's true, I think this is what maybe I would say to you, to all three of you, which is-- and I wouldn't even say-- to call it imposter syndrome feels too simplistic. It's like, if it is true, let's say I am a them, I will always think of myself as a who. Yes. And I think that's why-- we're obsessed with seeing like your Tina Fey moment or kind of these little things like Owen Teal on the plane like fascinating moments where obviously the person is like I'm fun I'm still talking to the people I'm normal but then everyone else is like you can't just say Andrew Garfield's on the plane yeah like that's like you're too famous for that because now so many people are seeing that and it's a little weird and it's like yeah but you're at this space where you're kind of like in between you're just trying to be yourself and that's why but in that moment for owen i think that kind of shot him into like a little bit up the them ladder totally because i think he realized like oh god i am in the headlines yeah i'm the headline now i have the ability to create culture by doing something doing literally existing existing like the plane came down here i am right and it's funny because it's like a lot of i think our generation but just because of like exactly what you write about the way the attention attention economy works the way that like media works etc we all sort of cut our teeth looking at the thems and sort of pointing at the thems yeah and then in doing that because that medium became very popular you sort of become the thing where something odd will happen sometimes where like we'll say something on this part like there's never been a who we are thing than this i said i auditioned for it ends with us and i i said i said it was a weird audition for me because i had to cry and be straight it was so funny for for blake lively because i was reading for i i that's the who who plays the guy who's the lead of the movie that's not justin baldoni oh the oh the other guy brendan brendan brenner so very hot right so this is a the who is thing i've ever heard so and i i said that this for you people magazine my god people magazine people magazine people magazine people magazine people magazine said what did rogers said he had to cry and be straight before it ends with us incredible headline and i was so yeah it bummed me out because it's deliberate it bummed me out because it called out a who-ness which was unbecoming for me and it embarrassed me so i understand when you say god don't put me in that position of being perceived because it's so much more comfortable i know to be on this side of it when the perception was not what you wanted to be what you wanted was to entertain people and then the story you told was very funny right uh relatable maybe for some yeah right and of course now unfortunately your show is being watched on 1.8 speed yes by people magazine writers right and that's kind of a privilege hunting and a responsibility oh they're transcribing they're not they're using ai they're not they're not listening remember when they used to have to watch two speed oh yeah like really i used to do that i used to do that i used to do that the only thing better than being a who because we do both i think firmly believe that is the like peak of celebrity totally it's the most freeing you can be as a famous person but the only thing better is being a them with a heart of who yeah with the heart of who if you have a heart of who i think that that's like still very title of that them with a heart of who oh my god yeah well what's brilliant about the the the binary of of them and who is that it is like a grim index as to like they're not being a middle class anymore with an entertainment literally yes yes fuck it is but it okay but the positive yes is that because everybody is a them to somebody so many more people can uh work in entertainment yes like absolutely us all of us here anyone you know right yeah so you can create your own audience yeah forever right exactly they'll follow you and do whatever you want to do it's just it's it's i really love and when i say exhaustive i do mean that because i feel like we know a lot of people a lot about pop culture but i didn't i hadn't really thought about the advent of the tabloid industry you know what i mean it dates back to like luella parsons and yeah head of hopper and the fact that they i obviously was us on the book okay yeah i watched no you're no i can tell you read it i can tell you read it i can tell yes i mean we're scholars of this uh now um but when i i watched feud and obviously i understood a little bit more through that um seminal text but it it was interesting to think about it as something that was not there was no shame in it you know what i mean because it it was a it was a necessity whereas now there it's it's because it's become what it's become there's a lot of shame in it and the shamelessness of a who is i've i had never heard it in like you did in this book like it was like respected like you know what i mean yeah like our culture has kind of just folded in on itself where we're now like get the bag and we don't really care necessarily as much i mean also more famous celebrities are doing more shameless things because they're making less money elsewhere or they're like seeing influencers take their jobs and they're like no no sweetie like i'm selling the coffee like you are not yeah right and they'll i'll go eat the chicken totally the chicken was beneath them 20 years ago now they're like i can't get enough chicken i'm gonna go eat the chicken is eating the chicken yeah you ate the chicken i ate the chicken but unless i got a lot of flack for it and i did the who version of chicken which is chicken versus they won't even let you eat the main chicken no he was kind enough to so he did the demi chicken chicken moment organic chicken because someone dropped out at the last minute is that actually true well i yeah well i don't know they didn't tell me was it someone from wicked no okay i just the chicken we've talked about this recently but the chicken thing has really turned for me and i don't mean like it's gone rotten but although that's a pretty good that's good whatever um it used to be like i'm so delighted by the chicken we're seeing a new side i'm like we're torturing them yeah we're torturing them because we cannot um get them to say anything or do anything anymore no profiles all that stuff all the fun stuff we used to love now we have to put them on a show in which we torture them until their uh defenses are down and they're choking yeah and then they maybe say something do we think that the pendulum has swung back the other way so hard in that podcast like this or like friendly spaces for celebrities to come and not be asked hardball questions like i think like and maybe it'll just keep like just swinging back and forward yeah anyway i think now what you guys start off the book by saying um you know 2010's killed the cover star right that's chapter two one we're talking about megan markle that's right oh fabulous which is again your book ends to you know megan and rita are just perfect two icons well you have the permanent who at the end rita yeah and then you have the most i think iconic and notable and recognizable story of someone that went from who to them yeah in an instant right in a span of like two years yeah and then you have the most i think iconic and notable and that's right yeah and then and i don't know and this on this day october what is it 20th yeah um 2026 it's like i was thinking about this it's like well is megan markle like straddling the line a little bit no i think she's she's always gonna be she's always she's always she's royal she's royal she's royal but i think people have a lot to say about what she chooses to do that's right and that is kind of the who them thing that we're obsessed with yes should is she like is she too themmy to do this and it's like she's gotta do what every other celebrity's gotta do that's right yeah but just i think we can index the things like her her little like bag moments where you're just like oh well she's choosing like edible flowers you know what i mean like that's what yeah now we're getting like we're drilling down into like well does the thing does the commodity that's being pushed is that who we are is that themmy right it's not even just doing spawn it's what is the spawn for exactly and why is this like why are you selling the edible flowers why am i trusting you that these flowers are indeed edible you know yeah i have a lot of faith in her you don't believe the flowers are edible i do but then i find myself wondering why do i believe that yeah and why am i thinking about this and why am i thinking about it yeah i feel like that's that's like another thing that speaks to i think themminess and the thems is usually it is 90 conjecture about them because they exist in our minds already it's like once you become a them you become a part of someone's brain and i think that with the thing with megan markle is she's now a part of our brain like you could say her name out on the streets and like 15 20 people around you would turn around and so because they all have ideas about what that might mean and so there's a lot of like projecting there's a ton of projecting on taylor swift there's a ton of projecting on beyonce there's a ton of projecting on jesus totally you know what i mean whereas not really no whereas like with who's they're constantly trying to give you information yeah they're constantly trying to give you information yeah yeah yes and that's you know why we love them that's because that's who we're stuck with in terms of like the celebrity ecosphere that we love from our youth like the magazines and like the profiles and like i love that yeah like we're obsessed with that so with chapter two it's like i think the magazine cover and the profile is the function that it's serving is that it's just a trophy for the person and not necessarily the vehicle for like more press or more or for them to be more knowable it's not like developmental for this person as a star it's like well tom cruise is on the cover of gq for digger but it's already like what do we not know about tom cruise you know what he's also not going to give anything exactly he doesn't in that way and and what he gave ultimately that became the narrative was the picture right yeah a very strange picture a very strange picture and so it's almost like okay now we have this it's almost like when a celebrity like you talk about um denzel giving and from giving advice to michael b jordan yeah it's like when a huge massive celebrity of that time gives it gives advice whether it's just by you know like symbolically we glean everything from the tom cruise picture which is kind of like showing people he's showing people how to be he thinks and denzel is literally telling this younger you know generational talent that he sees himself in like this is my advice meanwhile it's like i don't know would it be better for michael b jordan to only appear in acting maybe he is an exception to the rule maybe he is now in his oscar winning era box office marquee era maybe he can still do that and live the denzel way and do the denzel version of fame but i think that what's so clear is that that's disappearing i mean you could probably list on one hand now yeah the actual people that like all of our parents would know oh yeah that's under 30 i don't even know if my dad would know who sydney sweeney is and she's kind of made for him well it has long island right yeah it would have to be like oh we do watch the diplomat right we love carrie yes carrie russell carrie russell my parents know carrie russell and i think that's the thing where it's like you know my dad also surprises me but then i realize he's watching every apple tv show and i'm like oh i know exactly who he knows yeah but that is kind of weirdly this like little silo apple tv show that i don't watch yeah who did yeah my dad yeah like that's his knowledge base right that's who he considers to be famous or whatever right we also have a gajillion tv shows now right that's also kind of the problem or whatever is it is it a is it a little scary to like uh assign who and them to like let's say a platform because you go because apple tv has all of the thems yeah but no one wants but all the shows are whose yeah for sure i mean yes like is that is this a bridge too far like do we well it's like prestigey right like being prestige is like that prestige who is like a great place to be absolutely an apple tv prestige who platform yes 100 because it's like it's it's all the thems in shows you've never heard about it's like jennifer connelly is in i think a hundred seasons of a show that i have never watched right that's crazy that's crazy you know what's been on for a really long time and gets critical acclaim up its ass and the people that love it love it and maybe not even everyone in this room knows what it is slow horses i know you were gonna say so horses i love so much so it's a them show to you to me it's a them show but that's the thing but it's on the who it's on the who platform talk about you try you enter a room and you say who's watched the horses they look at you like you're a psycho yeah and it's like i just want to talk about how good jack loudon is this season but i have no one to discuss it with right you know and that was what and yeah as we're all like culture lovers like that was that's what i miss the most is like literally yeah if i had known you would have been like oh my god i would have been like oh my god back during peak race anatomy oh god we would have we don't know and yet there's just not there isn't that ubiquity anymore where it's just like like we one of our first performances we ever did together was called gray's anatomy drag and it was just it was in gray's anatomy improv drag we came like hospital so i was christina and he was meredith and we were just christina meredith he was in like a like a like a curly black wig and i was in my blonde wig it really was giving more izzy but that is he is he is he christina wasn't legible like christina so we did bad improv to it and i think that we got away with how bad it was ish because people could at least recognize the concept whereas now it's like what from television do you say is outside of heated rivalry you know what i mean like i mean housewives it's different like it's different hubs right like it is there is enough house obviously there are enough housewives people to do anything involving that and people will show up right like that's true what's gagging me right now is the nathan fielder of it all i know this guy the most famous guy on the planet like it's crazy he's such a them now what happened i mean it's incredible to see like that's the conversation right now yes yeah did you guys see the movie oh yeah great we had to tell trevor to walk out of the room because we discussed it earlier but we i'd avoid spoilers you're gonna love it you know he's gonna love it it's made for you're gonna love it the way that sydney sweeney is is made for matt's dad is the same of course you know what i'm gonna text my dad right now if he knows who sydney's okay great i hope he does because now it's sort of a thing i'm just gonna say dad she's kind of like a dad do you know represents a lot too she might you know of course she does represent yeah she kind of is in our culture in a very specific way yes aside from what she's in and she was such a who in white lotus yeah but i always forget that she was in it yeah yeah but now i think she's like she's were you saying that she's a them like i think of her as a them in a sort of expansive like it goes back in time like it's like an anne margaret all the way up to like a pamela anderson yeah it's like a lindsay lohan you know like like it right it's a them i mean she is quite prolific and like i love the housemaid but she's more of them in that she causes so much conversation broad conversation across networks across like information silos then she is of them because of her work and that's no disrespect to the work but it's like she does anything and fox news is like we have to spend an hour talking about right right you know right you'll get a new year times alert about girl whatever she did you know it's ridiculous this ad is sponsored by vive healthcare time for some prep wisdom first some common sense people everyone's different everyone yes even you even your situationship especially your situationship and just like people injectable prep options not all the same that's why you need to talk to your doctor and know what to ask so here's some prep wisdom hmm did you know there's more to consider about long acting injectable prep options than how often you get it also why you want to take it matters your lifestyle matters your routine your chaos level your i might forget my own birthday energy all of it counts basically talk to your doctor have the conversation ask the questions be a little nosy about your own health it's loud encouraged even okay did you write all that down no don't worry just head to getprepwisdom.com to learn what to ask your doctor that's getprepwisdom.com this ad is sponsored by vive healthcare time for some prep wisdom but first some common sense people everyone is different every one yes even you yes even your situationship especially your situationship and just like people injectable prep options not all the same that's why you need to talk to your doctor and know what to ask so here's some prep wisdom did you know there's more to consider about long-acting injectable prep options and how often you get it also why you want to take it matters your lifestyle matters your routine your chaos level your i might forget my own birthday energy all of it counts basically talk to your doctor have the conversation ask the questions be a little nosy about your own health it's allowed encouraged even okay did you write all that down no don't worry just head to getprepwisdom.com to learn what to ask your doctor that's getprepwisdom.com just start simple with bank of america advantage safe balance banking no overdraft item fees no monthly maintenance fee if you're under 25. oh that's actually really simple safe balance banking one less thing to figure out learn more at b of a.com simple banking terms and conditions apply bank of america and a member fdic bank of america and a member fdic bank of america and a member fdic do you think that there's an intrinsic um controversiality in being a them like do you think it requires a bit of polarization people have to have a preconceived notion of who you are and they're gonna narrow it down to who that is to them so i think that's like the scary part of it that people don't realize like like in reading the book as a who i was sort of like thinking to myself like all the things that make me uncomfortable about the ways in which my life is going to be uncomfortable about the ways in which my life is going to be uncomfortable about the ways in which my life is going to be uncomfortable about the ways in which my life is going to be uncomfortable about the ways in which my life is going to be uncomfortable about the ways in which my life is going uncomfortable about the ways in which my life is going to be uncomfortable about the ways in which my life is going to change all have to do with to change all have to do with to change all have to do with unwanted attention and perception unwanted attention and perception unwanted attention and perception and so as i was reading and i know that and so as i was reading and i know that and so as i was reading and i know that we've talked about this too like that's we've talked about this too like that's we've talked about this too like that's like something that's been like something that's been like something that's been uncomfortable for you as well like you uncomfortable for you as well like you uncomfortable for you as well like you know what i mean like it's not know what i mean like it's not know what i mean like it's not fun and i wonder in reading it it sort fun and i wonder in reading it sort of feels like a little bit of a weird of feels like a little bit of a weird of feels like a little bit of a weird trap because it's like you know you have trap because it's like you know you have trap because it's like you know you have to participate in order to do the thing to participate in order to do the thing to participate in order to do the thing you want to do which is entertain more you want to do which is entertain more you want to do which is entertain more people and like you know do the thing people and like you know do the thing people and like you know do the thing that you love however that you love however that you love however it comes with these side effects that it comes with these side effects that it comes with these side effects that you know are coming but don't understand you know are coming but don't understand you know are coming but don't understand are coming yeah you know what i mean and are coming yeah you know what i mean and are coming yeah you know what i mean and then it's and so i it was like a real then it's and so i it was like a real then it's and so i it was like a real mind reading it as someone who like mind reading it as someone who like mind reading it as someone who like you know has been in a picture with my you know has been in a picture with my you know has been in a picture with my bravo star x with the cut down the bravo star x with the cut down the bravo star x with the cut down the middle yeah you know what i mean like middle yeah you know what i mean like middle yeah you know what i mean like it's like it's like that felt really it's like it's like that felt really it's like it's like that felt really crazy to me because it's like that's crazy to me because it's like that's crazy to me because it's like that's something i would make fun of and yet i something i would make fun of and yet i something i would make fun of and yet i have to go on right because you're have to go on right because you're have to go on right because you're culture lovers so you grew up like culture lovers so you grew up like culture lovers so you grew up like seeing that rip photo right with people seeing that rip photo right with people seeing that rip photo right with people who were really famous to you and then who were really famous to you and then who were really famous to you and then it's and then you've been ripped and it's and then you've been ripped and it's and then you've been ripped and then it's you and it feels like it it's you and it feels like it it's you and it feels like it cheapens the whole thing of course you cheapens the whole thing of course you cheapens the whole thing of course you know what i mean like it's like know what i mean like it's like know what i mean like it's like suddenly when it's you it's kind of like suddenly when it's you it's kind of like suddenly when it's you it's kind of like it's like oh it's like oh it's like oh it's me it's me it's me ah this isn't real okay question does ah this isn't real okay question does ah this isn't real okay question does that make you enjoy that make you enjoy that make you enjoy culture less celebrity culture culture less celebrity culture culture less celebrity culture probably you know what which is which probably you know what which is which - So that's an interesting question. I feel like- - Are you gossiping about celebrities? - Part, but that part of it, it makes me enjoy less. - So yeah, I think we just do it less 'cause, and I think our listenership kind of might take issue with this like we sometimes will you have to meet them humanize them in a way no that's good that's no that's good i mean i think how we and meet them of course that's yeah whatever we how we deal with this we're not famous but like you but whatever what i'm saying how we deal with this is is that to us a lot of the who mechanisms are people who want press they want attention they seek it out for their work and when they get it it actually helps them make more money do more projects whatever whatever so in our mind that's how we that's why we cover who's and not them and that i think is something that we we also i don't can speak for you but i feel like because we're obsessed with the media of it all a lot of the times we're trying to figure out what's being reported why it's being reported why it's being reported that way is the person being taken out of context is the person on a podcast and they're just blabbing because no i don't know what's going on with them and they're just blabbing because no i don't know because no i don't know what's going on with them and they're just blabbing because no like they're just too comfortable right you know yeah um we call that podcast mouth like that's like these symptoms of like new media but from early on like i think it was by no means the goal initially but then we realized it was sort of our way out because we are not in the business of breaking gossip people sometimes send us stuff but we're not going to talk about it like we just want to talk about stuff that is being talked about why it's being talked about and also about people who want the attention it really is not it's kind of to your point it's like it's less fun to talk down and don't want the attention exactly you want to talk about the person that's like jesse james jesse james ecker yesterday was like i'm partnering with fresh express and i have to talk to you about bagged salads i'm like i have to listen and i have to regurgitate it that's so funny it's like it is so much more joyful to talk about people who are taking joy in the stupidest stuff imaginable right like it's not it's not fun to air kind of dirty laundry right yeah but it's it is interesting because i find i do like the press part of it like i like the the i like the performance element of all of it it's like the unwanted ugly social media stuff which is a symptom of recent stuff and also like when people are just wrong and they get to say whatever they want you like the agreed upon terms exactly and i think that that's something that that's that's it's off the table are you still in a place both of you actually are you still in a sidewalk hello yeah like that hasn't started to bother you no right no no no i think that's that's like such a good you know it's like a free drink at a bar i'm just like oh yeah these are the cool perks it's like someone comes up to you and says love what you do yes that's awesome so that's so nice that i love feeling like nice interactions from people because here's another aspect of it which is i think it's you talk about it but also it's really felt when it's you the vitriol from online that doesn't match the energy in real life yeah oh yeah and that's very story of your life you know what i mean it's like yes it's like when you are when what they have to say about you is like i don't know what the fuck he thinks he's doing he's not even like we don't care yeah and then you're like uh maybe people don't care and then you go out to the streets and people care it's like that's the part that's like a little mind fucky so it's almost like as a who i would imagine there's a lot of like not death march towards themdom but it's like what's this all for if i don't become a them you know what i mean like if i'm existing in this middle place of who ness where people aren't really sure what to think of me and so i'm not shouldn't i just march forward into themdom or just go fully back to nah no and i think that i think the joy and this goes back to them at the heart of who i think the moment you are a them lindsey correct me if i'm not if i'm wrong never like the moment you are a them it's sort of like this weird paradox because then you are reduced to like one thing yeah you are firmly in a lane everyone recognizes you in the specific lane when you're who you can do whatever the hell you want you can be all sorts of things and you can and you can like make decisions on the fly are doing more things yeah they do who is your patron saint of the podcast and the subject of the final chapter of this book and i have always been upset with her that was our favorite that's my favorite it was definitely my because it was something we were always going to write yes and we weren't sure how we were going to write it but ultimately like we've been covering her for 10 years yes so we are the ultimate rita aura fans you are like it's crazy has she reached out ever no and like that's kind of our beautiful relationship we're like no i'm serious no i agree i think she probably gets it i think that means she gets it because i think she knows because she's a genius about this stuff and her pr people are too that like it ruins the ecosystem like we like to let us do our thing is the best gift that she could give us if i ever found out that she was upset about it first of all we would know by now but if i ever did find out that she found it very hurtful i would i would dig a hole and crawl in it yeah like i would feel terrible oh yeah so but i i do think that she either knows it exists and just ignores it and says whatever but you know what or she knows it exists and thinks that's kind of charming that's what makes her the perfect who because she is able to ignore stuff like us i think that's why she lives in this perfect place of doing whatever the hell she wants because she knows that she can always get a job she's supremely talented on multiple levels the industry likes children are obsessed with her yes because descendants and like and detective pikachu literally where she played a scientist incredible role yeah she passed she dies she blows up or something yeah she blows up you it's good i have these cultural blind spots it's good within the pokemon ecosphere we should watch that we will read and i was really pleased i was like damn i'm really nice she's not in it for a long time but she is in it for a good time which is kind of how she lives her life 100 i mean what her function in the movie is crucial yeah wait you gotta have her on the pod i feel as though i feel as though she is a perfect person she would be so fun just the way you guys write that final chapter is just triumphant like it was just it was just no i mean it was i know that's really nice i because you know what i was thinking i think you guys do call her like a bon vivant bon vivant she literally was out on the town with her friend dave a couple weeks ago oh yeah i saw i saw that friends of ours went out to dinner with her because and literally it was so funny they said they met her through a friend and they were all supposed to have dinner together with the friend and the friend had to bail and they texted rita and were like hey friend had to bail if you want to do it another night no no no i'm coming for sure hung out with her for hours she was a jam and they had the best time with her and she was like i'm coming for sure i'm coming for sure i'm coming for sure i'm coming for sure they texted us after like rita aura should become a part of our permanent friend group and you know what she would love that and apparently and j and then jared was with her at the emmys last year because and then and then jared facetimed me from the chateau like this is the most la sentence if anyone had a negative thing to say about rita or it would have been guess who would call me and i would have to grapple oh not once not once have we ever heard a thing about that woman and you know like you think about celebrities and it's it's mostly i think aligned with taylor swift but you think about celebrities like big thems where they have their famous friends yeah and it's like oh they're a famous friend with this person for a year and then they kind of go away and they have a new famous friend i can't think of someone who's like i love rita who is then sort of mia in her life right she keeps her friends people and i think that that says a lot yeah you know we we cite a an article where charlie xcx says rita is a great time yep and i and i think that's a great time and i think that's a great time and i think that's a great time and i believe it and i'm like she would know she's been in a loving marriage for four years now i have to say also thank you for really incredible thank you for shouting out like the catalog of songs because i really feel like it has to move beyond like gay guys and women who get it who love rita like i'm telling you i'm waiting for the last time for you hey no literally oh my god it's so devastating but what's not devastating is the music uh just seriously stream phoenix honestly also i will never let you down is truly about how we do parentheses party that was where it all started she has songs and also she still will put out good songs kind of randomly yeah just to give you a gorgeous song well she's an amazing singer yes like and that's i think sometimes well and we we were saying like what did you say what you said i was just saying quickly and we all know this but talking about her in such an enthusiastic ways because she is not beholden to any of the bullshit of modern fame go she can release a song for the descendants she can release a pops like it doesn't matter no matter what i agree and the other thing is i actually think that she's reaching a point where culture is gonna meet her because i believe this whole narrative about the kia asylum kaya which you guys pronounce correctly on the kaya asylum of course so but what i think happened is in in 2024 that was charlie in 2025 it was zara in 2026 it was tanasha i think that it all shuts down for good in 2027 when rito breaks out of the asylum and is an a lister asylum is like this irrelevant thing to us because it's like it's about siloed like tanasha zara who was who'd you Charlie all had incredible careers. - Sabrina was in there. - Yes, Sabrina was fully in there. of fans putting out albums don't whatever going on tour no problem like before we when we were saying they're in the asylum so the idea that like and honestly maybe their lives and their well-being was better when they were in the asylum now it's like they get to receive all this them attention we're like yeah you made out of the asylum whatever so proud of you and i'm like do they really want to make it that's what music fashion film is like about totally you know what i mean it's about how the end of that album with just kind of devolving into nothing lasts forever nothing lasts forever like that's it's scary it's haunting and you can tell it's like it was charlie is one of the great scholars of the who to them she's so self-aware she projected so much onto them very interesting the them of it all yeah and then she became then she very much became a them and now it's like you get a sense that there's like a little bit of paralysis in there which she is like really sort of like you know in a very charlie way trying to dive into but it's interesting it's like when you've done the thing where you fought through the wholeness because you were positive that the answer was to become them it creates this other dimension also she's so thoughtful she's so thoughtful she's so smart and she's thinking about all these things that we're talking about and having to process that within her own life which i'm like i can't imagine that's fun or easy no no i mean it's it's wanting them dumb while i'm not understanding like the emotional reality of it i mean yeah i mean this is this is all yeah this is all quite um obvious i i was gonna say like the book is i mean it just came out a few weeks ago um i was kind of just like i was amazed at how like modern it was i just i just felt like the references were so up to date and i like like when did you what was like the deadline for edits for you guys the last thing we added oh that was major was post oscars earlier this year yeah because we had to say timmy lost and michael won right because that was kind of important as a button that's right but like that was like where the timeline ends uh-huh and that's something that we kind of would go a little nuts over because it's sort of like you're writing this thing but it's not a living document it's like it has to end somewhere and is that going to frustrate people so it's as current as it can be but it's like this is about a 10-year span in time more or less period that's the end and if more happens then like another book will happen yeah this is a dense 10 years you know what i mean everything changed everything changed okay so do you guys know that we started our podcast at the same time yes yeah like basically like a month 2016 which is crazy because if you think about it like when we started we were like oh podcasts too many of them literally why we almost didn't do it literally who wants this shit it's too much whatever we don't know what microphones are we sound like shit whatever this was a whole thing it's crazy that we had this confluence of like you guys and us we were like culture needs talking about yeah us and you've experienced the same 10-year swath of culture which is why i think this hits for you because this is the 10 years that you've been talking about culture sure yeah and it's isn't it crazy when you watch an entire media landscape change and it's like when you plant a seed and then stare at the same thing and oh fuck it's a huge tree it's like oh my god while working in it which we're not so that's totally mind for you yeah well i'm sure i think that's what keeps us like i don't know that that's why we like we've had to like go to video and you guys get to do it like i'm saying like i i love it it sounds awful but i'm just like i i i yearn for that you know what i mean it's like come on back it's great oh my god i mean you lose the you lose the like wheels virality but like who cares so much like peace like being in a cardigan the reed does it too the reed refuses to go video i know because you know what i will say like in in speak you speak all about you know podcasting and uh it was really kind of so when you are on camera you're just different you're just different and i i i used to be really sensitive like about three four years ago when it felt like there was a bit of a turn where this podcast went from being like niche favorite to i think it became an actual thing yeah and people were like they changed and there was like a whole like i think it was a vulture article we participated in like an interview and it was the bent of it and it's jason frank who's very good at what he does but you know he's messy and he is but and we love him but like he wants he wants the story and he gets the story and i was frustrated because i was like i feel like people think we changed but like it all changed yeah yeah it all changed yeah like and i and i think in real in relation to the way it all changed we didn't change that much well like the fact that mariah carey wants to come on your podcast is the change yeah right like you didn't you didn't change the culture change and therefore you were there to catch the culture right because you're the thing that people want to watch and we're attention seekers in our own way and celebs want to talk to you and we go oh sure like it's it's all yeah i mean it all it all sort of your hand in each other it goes hand in hand well it's funny that like we when we first didn't pivot to video when everyone was the question the question was you know when you're gonna do it uh-huh like is it happening when you're gonna do it and now it's what you said it's like you're so lucky i'm so i'm so i'm sorry my tone but i i genuinely mean that no i and i believe you and receive it yes yes i'm i hate that i'm sorry i'm sorry the fact is we have a tv show now that's that's just that's what it is you are disney this is tv and isn't it funny because it was i'm like and now it's it's interesting i think because of course then like when you get to a certain place in your career and like especially like you know you leaving snl like me having like the tv credits that i have like we're a recognizable brand and so they say well why don't we now pitch a tv series and then you do that and you realize what a nightmare that is and how annoying it is and how great this is just why would i and i said that's also why your award show is perfect right because it responds to your show it's a natural extension you can use all your new best friends the celebrities and they will be so happy and they want to be there because they love but i guess what i mean is like that's one thing and because it feels like an extension of the podcast we can do that but i guess what i'm talking about is like i'll just say we had we had a show where we were developing a show at one of the one of the big ones one of the big guys and it became very clear that it was going to be really needlessly difficult and not necessarily going to pay off and you talk to people and ended up being an enormous waste of time a big enormous waste of time and i think made a good idea worse and at the end of it when it came time to think should we pick up and like do it somewhere else my instinct was no yeah yeah this is why you don't work with brit box you shouldn't work with brit box no they have nagella the finger point genre was gonna be you you're just gonna have judy dench here finger drama finger drama finger drama oh yeah do you guys like finger drama what do you guys love it love i love a period yeah i love sense and sensibility i just saw it it's fab and someone did have to call our pod and be like yes it's in the title one has sense and one has sensibility right one's feeling and one is sensible and i said oh yeah that's right i read it too it's actually even clearer in sense and sensibility than it is in pride and prejudice because pride and prejudice is more of like a sort of like idea whereas like sense and sensibility is literally the characters one girl another girl yeah yeah no i loved it fabulous it really was good and i think daisy edgar jones should be a them i think she has a lot of names so many names does that gum up the works to them sometimes it is hard to remember the name sure i mean scherzinger scherzinger stands out you know scherzinger stands out but wouldn't you say that she's like sort of like uh like an alternate universe rita aura she felt like a rita aura to me for a long time and then with sunset boulevard made her a them on broadway it made her them on broadway yeah she won the top the top thing you could get yeah in that field yeah everyone was celebrating her left and right for basically a year because she did something astonishing and everyone was like you were getting this award there's no question about it you're gonna win this award you're gonna win this award you're gonna win this award you're gonna win this award you're gonna win this award and then she's burning herself backstage at a doll's concert in like poland it's like this is so strange wait tell us about weird she spilled like hot water on herself she made tea she spilled hot water on herself and it's like you were touring with the doll no no no no no no no no oh my god totally accidental this is a this is from a place of deep deep concern yeah yeah but it's like the next big thing she did after that was do a reuniting tour with the dolls it doesn't sell well enough in the united states so it's european only i'm sure she has wonderful fans in europe but it was like that was bad press and that must be really difficult because she left that silo where she was like number one then yeah into the broader you think you think it's one vector that just goes just outward and up i think theater's tough yeah yeah theater's like hard yeah um i on the on this sort of up-to-datedness of the book which i don't think you should ever worry about because like you're saying it is like the past 10 years and i don't know even like as we're talking like like matt and i were talking today on the way in about like oh my god like the elizabeth hasselbeck stuff is like perfect i loved that you guys covered her um and i'm sure you have a lot to say about that but i just want i'm curious to know have you guys talked about like the connor story hudson williams of it all like yeah that's the most recent example of like stratospheric who to them yeah I love watching them in spaces and see what their deal is I think they both are so eager to be part of it and it shines through in a way that is actually really nice yeah I'm sure they're both having a hard time with the rest but yeah I think they're both enjoying their time in this space now it seems like yeah doesn't seem like to you and fleeting interactions with them yeah it just seems like they are they are meant for this they are so good at being yeah these stars yeah and yet I can tell like this is complete as it cannot be anything else it is so overwhelming and so destabilizing yeah and obviously that's something that it gets us really excited when a new person shows up like we're all we we're all about new people we're trying to we actually want people to come in and stay the problem is when we talk about someone we never hear from them again that's so bleak for us it's like we want yeah when somebody new comes along we want to them to be part of culture yeah for longer yeah and usually when you get the new under 30 youngish star like actor specifically they don't typically come out of nowhere like you got your Indy Navaretti and your Connor story and your Hudson Williams but usually it's more of a Zendaya and a Timmy Chalamet where it's like kind of a slow and steady upward trajectory yeah either a contestant on Dancing with the Stars you come in second to Kelly Pickler Daisy Edgar Jones like if there was like an actor Kaya Asylum like that would be like the best way to do it would be like yeah there's a lot of girls and there's a lot of them and so there's always like press where it's like meet the next big thing GQ's like you'll never leave the next big thing and you never hear from them again right so Connor and Hudson were exciting because it was like meet the next big thing and they were right undeniable you know it was it was really surprising yeah is there a who that got away what say more like that was looking like they were gonna become a them that like a who that you were excited about there's countless yeah I mean we're still like Alden Ehrenreich oh yeah oh but he keeps winning I'm so proud of you I can't even think about it he's coming back but like yeah he was a who that got away right he he it was like oh god and then it's like he went away to do something interesting and now he's back because he did something interesting right yes that's fabulous hey he runs a theater in LA it's like the coolest thing you could do well that's he's in a Carly Rae Jepsen music video what else is there again but I'm thinking Kaya asylum but like Tinashe yeah yeah for sure we're just the amount of press that she got for so long that was like here it comes because we were big fans of the song flame which I know she does not like oh right you're obsessed with it yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah we were like flame here we go major a major record uh major uh label release yeah awesome song we love it she was like hate it it flopped and now but it's great there you go we found our place we she found her place back sure I think my who that got away Lacey Chabert oh Lacey Chabert you think she could have made it I think she could have been a big star because of Mean Girls I think because I think when you look back at Mean Girls and you yeah you look at the Mean Girls right because and you've got your Lindsay and your Amanda yeah yeah yeah and Rachel McAdams and then you see Lacey and you watch that movie she's Lacey's my favorite thing about it yeah and I'm like what happened yeah that why these girls not Lacey right she fell into the Hallmark Lane she did she definitely comfortable in it I think she's quite successful right you know but it is kind of incredible that most of those girls a list yeah a plus list my conjecture is that you know devout Christian is like oh this side I don't it's the it's the even just thing that you guys write and she's like I don't want to fight for these parts I'm gonna sell sponges yeah you know what I mean it's like and there's I think there's nothing wrong with that no but I think we'll always want her to do stuff because we love her and we love culture and so we're like come back and do it and it's like she's like no not worth it yeah it's also funny when you when you see someone return to themdom and they're surprised by it and you're delighted by it and I feel like the best example of that over the past year is Jennifer Garner oh yeah Jennifer Garner being in the five star weekend and how many texts did we all send to our friends being like I forgot she's so good she's so good we liked her for a reason yeah and then you then you start to think about it and you're like she was always so good it's just that she had different priorities and a crazy situation that I think people because she's so likable um people forget that they are they separate the idea of her likability or they it's confusing that she was such a tabloid fixture because and she's recently spoken about just how intense and uncomfortable it was to be there that almost like doesn't matter what y'all want like I'm gonna do Capital One because I'm gonna provide for my family and be low lift and charming in this thing later on maybe and the second she decided she wanted it again top of the charts season two incoming yeah I think they're like almost I think they're like almost done writing it another weekend yeah just write another weekend there's always more weekend they're gonna pump that out yeah yeah after how successful it was for sure yeah I loved it you probably think dressing well takes lots of money or lots of time spent digging through thrift stores well not to be rude but you're wrong so dead wrong and honestly we're happy for you because now we get to tell you about Depop you can find the fashion you love for less on Depop and it doesn't matter what you're into leopard print they've got it not into leopard print first of all why but fine they've got that too not leopard print basically whatever your particular fashion situation is Depop has entered the chat we're talking over 600 000 daily listings including celebrity and stylish shop drops that's a lot of listings and somehow it gets better you can sell the stuff you no longer wear and make money then use that money to buy things you do want to wear it's a circle like the circle of life but for fashion and since fashion is life for a lot of people same Z's Depop fashion if it made sense make money on Depop with no selling fees and find what you want for less Depop love you this ad is sponsored by vive health care I'm for some prep wisdom but first some common sense people everyone is different every one yes even you yes even your situation ship especially your situation ship and just like people injectable prep options not all the same that's why you need to talk to your doctor and know what to ask so here's some prep wisdom did you know there's more to consider about long-acting injectable prep options and how often you get it also why you want to take it matters your lifestyle matters your routine your chaos level your I might forget my own birthday energy all of it counts basically talk to your doctor have the conversation ask the questions be a little nosy about your own health it's allowed encouraged even okay did you write all that down no don't worry just head to getprepwisdom.com to learn what to ask your doctor that's getprepwisdom.com wait I came in for two things how is this 47 dollars all right we're gonna need a plan here just start simple with Bank of America Advantage safe balance banking no overdraft item fees no monthly maintenance fee if you're under 25. oh that's actually really simple safe balance banking one less thing to figure out learn more at bva.com simple banking terms and conditions apply Bank of America and a member FDIC okay I think it's time to ask Bobby Lindsay the question yes which is and you guys can answer this however you would like as many answers as you would like Bobby finger Lindsay Weber what is the culture that made you say culture is for me do you want to go you want me to go you go I like what I do the last one I told you do them all do them all okay well we're gonna do a shared one but then we decided to separate cultural moment that we both really overlap with that I think comes up and it also plays in my head from the VH1 behind the music TLC um Lisa burn the house down burn the house that is a big um thing for us that whole episode incredible incredible clip but for me personally um was definitely when I knew culture was for me was I was at a bar mitzvah and I won a prize and the prize I know what's coming the prize was a single number two singles yes and the single was for Monica and it was the song um don't take it personal one of them days a single of don't which is not even her kind of no not even like a monica single I was like you have to be saying Angel of Mine and you know or for you I will great songs great songs I never heard them at that point because I just had the single and that was her first exposure to Monica like who is this person totally and also kind of the idea of having a single and like and like having an item and having a cultural item was that was big because otherwise music wasn't as it was yours but also I was kind of like I rep this song this is my song yeah I am the like I'm the I'm the critic I'm going to uh tell everyone about this song and how great it is and it was a prize it was a prize I was chosen to a disciple that song you were given the assignment from culture to be the disciple for this single great song still oh still let's do it last night I was like damn it hits uh also we're obsessed with that MacBook that MacBook follow-up follow-up to the boys to me do you guys remember that to me did you you heard this it is the spiritual successor to the boy is mine and it is phenomenal yeah I'm not familiar with this okay I mean thank you for incredible there's a part where they say that Matt well it's and it's like them being like that MacBook belongs to me but they're both like scorned lovers of the same man yeah they're both sort of like complaining in like friendship yeah about this awful guy and they're like they're like they're both like scorned lovers of the same man yeah they're both sort of like complaining in like friendship yeah about this awful guy and they're like empowering each other in a way that sort of the tables on the original. - Sure, and they really thought it was gonna be this huge thing and it unfortunately wasn't, but those of us who were there said this is a great song. - If that says anything. - Yeah, okay. - And we come to you as supplicants to VH1, truly. - That's how we, that's all we know. We both worked there. - You guys worked there at a very interesting time. - Yeah, we sure did. - A very kind of transitional time. - Pivotal time. - From when it was going from like, 'cause when I was watching it as a young person. - Cool to uncool. - Exactly, it was sort of like advanced sexuality and sensuality, it was like when MTV was trash, like you could go to VH1 and you could see like, they would play like Natalie Merchant. - Sure, and like You Oughta Know artists were like a big part of our culture, Adele, all these incredible people they really knew were gonna be played in Starbucks near you, but like, but by the time we worked there, it was kind of like the grass. - It was transitioning to Mob Wives. - Mob Wives. - It was Mob Wives, Love and Hip Hop, it was their reality sort of Bravo chasing. And the behind the music was going away. You Oughta Know was going away. - Best Week Ever came back. - And it flopped. - And it flopped. - Sad. - Oh my God. - Could have been us, all of us. - Could have been us. I would have been thrilled. - I would have killed on that. - And then you guys really give. - You know what's crazy? You wouldn't have had a podcast, you would have just gone on. - Exactly. - No. - We would have been House Sparks. - You would have been House Sparks. - When I saw, I, being a kid and watching House Sparks on that. - Michael Ian Blatt. - Everything, everything to me. - They were so good and I was like, wow, that would be amazing. My dream would be to do that. - And you are doing that. - Sort of, I guess. - You are. - That's what you're doing. - You are. - In a way. - In a way. - But you guys really like pay respects to I Love the 80s, I Love the 90s. - It's everything. - Yeah, it's everything. - It is really crucial. - Yeah, yeah, yeah. - They did such a, you look back on it and they really did do such an amazing job producing that. - Edutainment. - Like, edutainment. Yeah. - Honestly. - I'm dead ass. - Dead ass. - No, totally. We don't have stuff like that, really. - It was school. - Edutainment of all time, it was school. Actually, that's rule of culture number 15. I Love the Decades was the best edutainment of all time and it was school. - Oh, that's incredible. - Love it. - It's so true. - That's really true. That's so true. - Okay, your culture. - I haven't told you this yet. But when I was thinking of it, I was like, what's it gonna be? 'Cause it really did go to I Love the 80s first. Best week ever. But then, I'm just gonna say it. Water world. And it's not. - The ride. - Okay, and I'll tell you. And it's not because of the movie, which I did not see until like two years after Water World came out. - Oh, keep talking. - The show. - Water World is what got me into Entertainment Weekly because I was like a little kid and I was like, I cannot believe how much money they're spending on Water World. This is gonna flop. And then I was like, this is-- - God, that's so you now. - The narrative of-- - It's like the first-- - It's like my own, the town Matt Bellany obsessed ass. It's like, it was the origin story of that where I was like, how could they give Kevin Costner this much money for this movie? Like they're building an entire place to film the boat. Like it's, it was like, I was so invested in this movie that I could not even see because my parents would not let me see PG-13 movies until I was 13. - But you were obsessed with the-- - And I was obsessed with it. - Kind of logistics. - And it got me to, I got them to let me subscribe to Entertainment Weekly. - Yes. - Because I was like, I have to follow the Water World saga. - Yes. - And it like, it really, when I, I'd never really thought about it until last night. I was like, wait a minute, this like, this really didn't form so much. - 'Cause all of a sudden you were like box office minded. - I was like, I care about this thing. - You became a box office guy. - Literally. - The economics of-- - Yeah, and it's like, I can't really, I can't engage. And it sort of came as a concession prize. 'Cause I was like, I can't engage with this movie the way I want to, which is I can't see it, but I can read about it. And I can like-- - That's real. - Think about it in my bedroom. - Yeah. - About like, ugh, I hope it doesn't flop. This will be bad for Universal. - Yeah, and also start forming a cultural opinion on what maybe would be deserving of that kind of money. Understanding it as a hierarchy in that way is like-- - Oh. - Really, I think, important for someone that's endeavoring to be like involved in all of this. It's like, that's like, that is truly, I mean, this is basic building block stuff. If you're gonna be sitting here, you have to know about Waterworld's historic bomb. And the fact that it is an enduring legacy property because of the stunt show at Universal Studios. - That's what I was thinking you were gonna say, 'cause that's my fave, Waterworld. - That's one of my favorite like hypocritical situations in the history of pop culture is that-- - It failed and yet it gets a showcase. - It is the most popular stunt show in theme park history. - And it didn't actually bomb. - Really? - Which in Entertainment Weekly taught me like a year after it came out. - Talk about that. - People just thought it bombed. - There was a, and I've actually considered going on eBay and getting it because I have like this vivid memory of like, the cover is someone, it's like Denzel or Julia. I feel like it's like Pelican Brief season. And there is a call out in the top that's like, "Surprise, Waterworld did okay." So anytime, I don't know. I think of Waterworld, I'm like, "It did okay according to Entertainment Weekly in 1997." - So then does this change anything for you in terms of the prevailing narrative around Waterworld, which is that it was a big bomb? - I mean, for me, it's like, it doesn't even matter factually and logistically what it is. It exists in the fabric of pop culture as this enduring thing because people had conversation about it at all. I would be very interested to see what the top 10 movies of that, what was that? 90? - Six. - 96. Wow, I thought it was way earlier than it was. Something in there. I would be very curious to see what the top 10 movies of 1995 were and if they are discussed, revered, culturally observed in any way like the movie Waterworld. - No, totally. - Which has something people think about every day. I think about that all the time with theme parks. Someone is, someone is experiencing, - Right now. - That cinematic culture. It's happening thousands of times a day every day. - Are they gonna go watch Waterworld now? No. - No? - No. They're just gonna know the idea of something called Waterworld. They won't even know who's in it. - Right. - Right. - But they'll know that it's probably having to do with a water world. - Like Avatar 2. - Right. The Way of Water. - The Way of Water. Waterworld. - Perfect title because it was Avatar, but Waterworld. - Yeah. - They were in Water Region. - Which is an iconic thing where you just take your thing and you put it in water. - If you have a sequel, all you have to do for the sequel title is just like, either put it in water or if it's not in water, just describe it so that people can understand it as if it was in water. - Yeah. - Like fire and ash. Like, you know, it's gonna be like, there's gonna be like fiery, ashy. - Yeah, 100%. - What you can expect from the water, you're gonna get from more fire, more ash. - It's the James Cameron thing of like he wants people who speak the language of English. He wants people to watch any of the Avatar movies in English, even if they don't understand English. - They get water. - To understand the movies at all. - Water. - Water. - Period. - Visually, you get it. - They almost drowned Kate Winslet. It better have worked. - I know. - And I think we know where the next five star weekend's gonna be. - Water. - In the water. - Water in the water. - Jennifer Garner could hold her breath for seven minutes. 100%. - Absolutely. - If she put her mind to it. - Absolutely. - Alias training, so real. - She is limitless. - I believe that. - And I've known it until 13 going on 30. - I believe it. - And people might yell because they might say, well, we've known it since Alias. But we didn't really know it until 13 going on 30 because 13 going on 30 is a more difficult performance to give than Alias. - Speak more. - Think that not, I mean, you'll notice that when someone like gets into a place where it's like, wow, you've really conquered like dramatic television. Maybe you're a charming, romantic, comedy heroine. That is really hard to do just to be like guileless and charming and like, you know what I mean? On screen to carry that and play a 13 year old. The best scene of Jennifer Garner's career to me. - You love this. - Well, honestly, I haven't seen every scene in Jennifer Garner's career, but it's the end of 13 going on 30. When a young Mark Ruffalo is like, has moved on and got married and stuff. He has, he's getting married. And she's brought her doll house. And she's like, I love you, Maddie. You're my best friend. And I'm like, oh, this woman is eating it up. And not everyone can do that. - We love you, Jennifer. - It's like when Sandra Bullock receives, no one is better. - At receiving a monologue. - Than Sandra Bullock. - That is usually about how the person is in love with her. Then Sandra Bullock, the end of the proposal, the score tries to fuck it up. The fact that they did reshoots and her hair is parted differently in every single shot they cut to her, tries to fuck it up. - Can't stop her, can't stop her. - The fact that the extras are all doing too much threatens to fuck it up. - But no. - Sandra lands that emotional plane so well. And all you can say while it's happening is she's doing it. She's doing it. She's being a movie star. - She really is a movie star. - She is. - Every time she comes back, we're like, she's back. She's back. Our movie star. Our movie star. - Also about the summer of Waterworld, The Net. - The Net. - The Net. - The Net. - The Net. That's my Waterworld. - That's real culture number eight. The Net, that's my Waterworld. - Imagine how scary a stunts The Net would be. - Oh, get out. - Stunts show The Net. - Oh, God. - You're getting hacked. So scary, so realistic. - I think The Net is the reboot we needed over Practical Magic. Not the reboot, like the sequel. - It'd be more topic. - It's happening again. - It would be more topical. - Oh, my God. - Think about that. AI The Net. - I like that as the tagline. The Net. It's happening again. - Should we write it? - Yeah. Who owns that? - Oh, God. See, this is the part that sucks. - This is the part that sucks. - I know, I know. - Like, on this podcast, we can be like, what if it's The Net 2? It's happening again, and we can have fun. with it you bring it to a network they're confused they don't get it we gotta talk to so and so it's like i wrote it on a podcast i wrote on a podcast take it allison's gonna love it we'll need sydney sweeney to be angela bennett it's gonna be tough fine fine she would kind of slay she might slay she might eat that did your dad text back yeah oh my god wait my phone is buzzing i heard a buzz and i said dad dad texted what do you say okay my mom is texting me oh well tell her to land it which means they just got off a plane okay great okay it's gonna take a while to think about did my dad respond okay ask dad if no now mom has to ask i'm gonna say well i'm gonna say yay because it's good for them to know that you're happy totally totally yay ask dad if he knows who sydney sweeney is okay i bet he does yeah do you think he would lie social experiment i'm not even gonna say it's a social experiment it's quite honest honest upstanding and be honest that's that kind of gives the taste okay do you know who do you know who sandra bullock is and do you know who sydney sweeney is those have very leave different tastes of course yeah you know sandra bullock was my dad's crush in the 90s pretty good she looks like my mom when she was young ish okay maybe ish this is like after after speed or after this is like i'm sure around speed because what person isn't watching that film being like that's my crush right yeah yeah but i feel like congeniality was where everyone else where the full culture envelops she's falling down all the time i love that are they making another one they really should i mean okay first of all arms and fabulous don't play with me about arms and fabulous you don't like it i don't like it am i playing with you it's i always it's bad i didn't see it it's bad but it's yeah regina deserved better you know what you can play with me about it it's bad okay okay mom lol he is googling her now he said he's heard of her oh are you asking because of the commercial that she does lol yeah this is every all the commercial this is what i needed to know they're seeing her name in headlines and on the news work yeah yeah they didn't see anyone but you it's not about it's not about the work no and i think what them's ultimately want is for the for is to be recognized for the work i know which is hard because it's conflicts with like the work you have to do sometimes to make money exactly and live and pay a stylist and there are just so many things that like the rip like the tear down the photo of you there are so many things about the experience of it that just cheapen the whole thing yeah yeah and that's what's i don't know it's just uh yeah bums you out you know who else is like a perfect case study who you also discuss in this for so many elements of this is jamie lee curtis oh yeah jamie lee curtis has gone from them to who and them to who and even though she still remained like like the hooeyness of doing the activia ads that was like the start of something yeah that was like the start of like shame going away i think like what could be more vulnerable than yeah yeah well remember when like movie stars being on tv was shameful right or hooey or whatever and now it's literally every movie stars it's all we want it's all we want yeah it's all we want and and they're happy to do it because the money is there as well and there's like money in tv to like make them look good apple tv etc yeah but it's like there are so many things that where it took one person to break that and then it's like now it's fine anyone can do it yeah maybe jamie lee's yogurt like opened the door yeah for everyone else that was who did the kristen wick kristen wick was the activity like those were such a joke yeah so long and she never stopped she did them forever yeah and i think that she was kind of ahead of the curve and like i don't care what you say this is a good check and like it's keeping me in the public eye and she laughed all the way to the oscar stage ultimately all the way to the oscar stage you also mentioned that she did a podcast for like 30 episodes which i remember i remember now the who is thing you can do as a celebrity is start a podcast and abandon it and not say a word ever again about it yeah it was like jamie lee curtis's good friend that's what it was called or whatever and it was like let me talk to my good friend yeah and then all of a sudden it was like leah michelle and jonathan groff it's like i think they were doing press yeah yeah yeah yeah so anyways that's my new determiner i know i know i know we have i know we're like we've branched off in different slightly different directions in terms of despite starting at the same time and we've branched off in slightly different directions in terms of podcasting but i do feel especially after reading that chapter i do feel this sort of like i'm gonna say pride and just sort of like protectiveness over the medium i'm like wait like this is important and story of your life catherine desert morton it's like she writes about how like you know social media is all about capture and something like podcasting or just conversations where you know there's no i let's just say like there's a conversation without cameras and microphones it's all about um release or something it's just about like letting your thoughts unfurl and taking things back and then walking and but then pushing things forward and then talking over each other and there's just something about not to like lionize what we do too much don't do it there's just something there's there's an antidotal aspect to what we do i think yeah do you think kind of the long form free form nature of podcasts like will bring how am i saying this will like make people more aware of what they're saying and then they'll like want to say more interesting things or something it challenges i do think it's kind of the last place where you're gonna get the interesting nuggets that they stopped giving you in the profiles because you talk about the self-awareness of the subject receiving the profile and i think a way that was starting to become like it literally was parodying itself it's like after how many times can you read an article that's like gwyneth paltrow walks into cafe jetain wearing a simple white button down and she effortlessly tosses a cashmere sweater across the table i love this place she says like as as someone sweeps over and this is good i want to read that people figure it out how to do that so well i don't want that to happen with this i don't want someone and it's happened a couple times with celebrities that have come in here where i'm like you're doing you're treating it like press i'm sure and i it it makes me itch because we don't like doing it and also i don't want to do it because we don't like doing it and also i know the readers don't like listening well they see through it they do see that they're smart they're smart they are smart they're smart they are smart we repeat it 50 more times they're smart they're smart they're smart but i think i think what is what i'm kind of like ensconcing with us let's say is like the on a fundamental i think our podcast and your podcast will never change because of the friendship yeah i think that's right i know that sounds so corny and stuff but it's like honestly like that is what keeps it that is like the binding agent of the whole thing like i like demi lovato is not going to post her podcast anymore because she she wants to do she does this is not right it's like you it's like i'm always like wanting to talk to bobby about some like celebrity stuff like whatever it is whether or not you guys on mic off mic it doesn't matter and also people can tell when you're not being yourself feeling that whatever i mean this is all i don't know about you guys but like half the we say is like group chat it's like from the group chat we've already talked about it what everyone think about this is this interesting to everyone it's like it's group chat research i think that like obviously another huge difference between like what both our podcasts do is like we have had guests from the very beginning like our we had our first episode that was us and then every single episode we had a guest until the pandemic and we started doing really just the things with the two of us but the thing when you have a guest of a certain magnitude of course you think i what we hope every single time is that it just feels like this yeah you know what i mean and i think we started to think of it as a little bit of a challenge like can we get jennifer lopez in here and get her to talk to us like this and i think we have varying degrees of success it's but it's it's interesting because it feels like the assumption that's being made is oh they just want to bring famous people in but i think the goal is every single time is to have it feel like this it's a challenge yeah and so and so you're like how famous can we get them and how real can we get the famous people because sometimes you hit a home run and you get like someone like jennifer lawrence chicken right exactly without having to torture right by just by nature of the atmosphere and being what it is and obviously in a media landscape and in like a medium that is changing along with us we can't tell what that's gonna be and we're still learning and we're still learning and we're still learning and we're still learning like 10 years in i'm sure the ways in which you guys are still learning about your podcast and the dynamics of it but it's it's exactly like you said like as it's changing alongside you you can't prepare for how it's all gonna feel you know of course so we had guests two or three times yeah and we said we don't want to do this anymore right yeah great and because it's a different show than yours and we were like if we're gonna if we're gonna comment on what you are doing in the media specifically we don't want to be that media totally it it ruined the magic it's the same reason like we've had a couple of opportunities not through her official channels but through like media some publications they were like would you two want to write the cover story on rita aura for x magazine and we're like no no absolutely not because that that breaks the fourth wall it breaks the seal it's It's like we want no part of that. - But what we liked when we did do interviews is that we, and these people you run out of quick, we realized, is we would choose people who were like kind of self-aware about their own fame. Busy Phillips, Spencer Pratt. Before, eight years ago, Ashley I. People who-- - Wow, Ashley I. Isn't it funny to watch what's happened there? Because she was a real favorite of Bachelor Nation watchers. - The crying just has been there from the start. Really, somebody who is so utterly herself and can't help it. We would, that's who we wanted to talk to. And then we realized very quickly that we would run out of those people. - And for every busy, there would be 50 celebrities who weren't as down and weren't as open or even like aware of their place in fame. And not in a derogatory way. It's just like, they never really had the opportunity or time to take a step back and realize where they were. And it might be better that they don't think about it. - It might be better for them that they're not processing, processing. - And it wasn't, we worried that it wouldn't be fun. - Yeah. - No, that's a huge consideration that you guys I think should be very proud of. I think we are not just quite as discerning because literally all we, our only guiding principle in terms of booking people is, oh, this is just somebody we wanna talk to. - Yeah, I mean, I think our thing is like, do they have like an identifiable cultural identity? And are we both excited about it? And do we feel like there's a good chance we could provide something fun and nutritious for the readers of the podcast? And I think if we've ever like, - There's been a couple of times where we walk in the room after it and we're like, fuck. - Yeah. - But almost never, like that's the thing is like, we enjoy it. - And I feel fine being lumped in with like the other, like cushy, friendly, celeb podcast spaces. I think there's more to us than that, but that's just us sort of self-preserving. - Right, it's also your brand. - Yeah. - You're established. It's not you guys for GQ, it's not you guys for Vogue, it's not you guys. That's what I'm saying is like that presentation, I think is when people are like, ask a question, please. Like a real question, like this is your brand. Like you are deciding the temperature of your conversations with people. - Sure. - And they wanna have fun. - We try, it's just that it's so hard now with Hulu because they- - Totally, blame Hulu. - It's so difficult. - Yeah, I know. - They have constant notes. - Yeah, Hulu, totally. - They want our episodes to be six and a half minutes. They're quibby. - Time for some prep wisdom. - But first, some common sense, people. Everyone is different, every one, yes, even you. Yes, even your situationship. - Especially your situationship. And just like people, injectable prep options, not all the same. - That's why you need to talk to your doctor and know what to ask. So here's some prep wisdom. - Did you know there's more to consider about long-acting injectable prep options than how often you get it? Also, why you wanna take it matters. Your lifestyle matters, your routine, your chaos level, your I-might-forget-my-own-birthday energy. All of it counts. - Basically, talk to your doctor. Have the conversation, ask the questions, be a little nosy about your own health. It's allowed, encouraged even. - Okay, did you write all that down? - No, don't worry. - Just head to getprepwisdom.com to learn what to ask your doctor. That's getprepwisdom.com. - Wait, I came in for two things. How is this $47? - All right, we're gonna need a plan here. - Just start simple. - With Bank of America Advantage Safe Balance Banking. No overdraft item fees, no monthly maintenance fee if you're under 25. - Oh, that's actually really simple. - Safe Balance Banking, one less thing to figure out. Learn more at bofa.com/simplebanking. Terms and conditions apply. Bank of America and a member FDIC. - It might be time. - It might be time. - It might be time for I Don't Think So, Honey. - We came in, we've been trying to do secret bits with all of our guests. And the one today was just gonna be holding up the book upside down every time. But you guys caught on. - We didn't. - I liked it. - I wanted to be like, but you're. - I liked it. - Oh, I see what you're doing. - I got it. - That was the thing is I think note for us is we have to find ways to less obviously lean in and enjoy our own bit at the top. - It was funny. - 'Cause we did that in unison. 'Cause I think sometimes we can't help it. - It was too obvious, it was too choreographed. - What? - I don't think so, honey. A little hair in the book. - Oh. - That's in there. - That's supposed to be there. - It's in there. - It comes with every book. - Yeah, it was supposed to be in there. - It's Rita Ora's, it's fine. - It's Rita Ora's. Okay, well, this is going to be, I don't think so, honey. This is our 62nd segment wherein we tear something up in pop culture or at large in culture. I also will say, this has been one of my favorite episodes we've done in a very long time. - Ever. - That's so nice. - I said ever. - Ever. - I just feel like it's also been a long time coming. - A long time coming. - Because I think our listeners were like, are you guys even friends? Like, why haven't they had you on? And I'm kind of like-- - We get a lot of, do you hate them? - No. - Yeah, yeah. - What are you talking about? - Yeah, yeah, yeah. - As if we're supposed to, you know, like, be back in time. - You know what, it is that thing though. - 'Cause I think, 'cause we're, you know, we're brothers. So it's like, people are kind of like, you're having the same conversation sometimes. It's like, you should be having it with each other. And I'm like, we should. The positive way is more just like, you guys, you have the same listeners. Like, we love them. So why are you not hanging out with them? - And also, we don't go on podcasts much. - No. - But now we're promoting this book. So we're doing it a lot. - Yes. - Yeah. - No, I'm saying, and I mean this is like, I'm so pleased that we finally did it. - I know. How was your experience in the clubhouse with Andy? - Incredible. What a professional. - Oh yeah, he's-- - What a professional. Also, when he took a photo of us, I was like, cardboard cut out. I mean, he's perfect. - Yeah, yeah, yeah. - He's perfect. - He's a perfect celebrity in the words of Lady Gaga. - Perfect. - I know he's a reader, and I would love to believe that he read it. But the way, I assume he didn't have time, he's busy. When he told us that he liked the book and thought it was so smart backstage-- - It was really nice. - I found myself thinking, I both don't believe that you had time to read this book, and also, that is the most wonderful compliment I ever could have, like you are so good at delivering this. - If that's what he said, I believe that he read it. - Yeah. - I think I 60% do. - To get it. - To get it. - And it's fully not about that. I know he's a reader, he's a writer. I'm just like, I don't think, he does so much. And I'm like, how did you have time for our book? - But talk about a show. - But I trusted it. - A perfect show. - Perfect show. - I love watching that live. - A perfect show, snappy, gets people to say stuff, people feel comfortable, they're drinking, they're having fun, the audience is small, they're reactive. I'm just like, that's a perfect show. - And also, if there's any book that is up his alley, it's this. - I absolutely think you read it. - It's the best week ever silliness that we respond to. - I know, the best part about writing a book about celebrities is that the people we talk about, I hope that maybe some of them will read it and be like, useful. Like, oh, okay, cool. - Honestly. - I'm using it, or I'm thinking about this more. - Oh. - It's-- - It's given me such a frame, like a new framework on just thinking about fame. - Yeah, and like, positive, hopefully in a positive way. - Completely holistic, the great, the bad, the everything between the good and the bad. - Because it makes you laugh at it again. - Yes. - Because sometimes it-- - It's so silly. - Sometimes when it's uncomfortable, and it feels like the perception is that you're cravin' about it, it gets to be a bummer, and then you're like, my God, this is so dumb, like, you know what I mean? Like, it's just-- - Like, I'm laughing. - It's chicken show. - Chicken show. - Chicken show, it's like, we're pals with him, it's like, I laugh about Ben Platt being on the Wicked Forum, you know, just being like, hi, my name is Ben Platt. - One of the most important kind of screenshots of our time. - Truly. - And that's important that he should know that. - Like, there's, like, it's all, it's all in the matrix. - It's culture. - It's culture. - It's culture, sorry, okay, now you need to be here, I was interrupting. - No, no, no, it's really important. - This is Bowen Yang's I Don't Think So, Honey, and his time starts now. - I Don't Think So, Honey's saying, oh, well, that kind of food doesn't travel well. - Food is not meant to travel at all. It's supposed to travel from the kitchen to the fucking table. Yeah, it's gonna come, it's gonna be a little mushy, it's gonna be, it's not gonna be optimal, but you're gonna eat it with a plastic fork anyway at your job, it's okay. We have no, there's no need to be sanctimonious about the integrity structurally about food. We're all bull slop, trough, pigs, it's okay. - 30 seconds. - We don't have to be fastidious about the way food is presented, unless you're at this gorgeously curated dining room. It's a dining experience. Being a little persnickety about like, oh, let's not do soup dumplings doesn't travel well. Just get a spoon or sip the broth from the plastic tub like the rest of us. You don't need to be all buttoned up about it. There's no etiquette when it comes to this. Travel well is a farce. It ends up being, it ends up limiting your options, doesn't it? - And that's one minute. - So order whatever you want. - As a crab lover, like. - As a crab lover. - Yes, say that. - You know what I'm saying? - No, yeah, say that. As a crab lover. - As a crab lover, this is something I think about. - Just order it. Doesn't matter. - I did one time, and then, the thing about it is it. - Wait, how did it come? - You're saying it doesn't travel. - It doesn't travel. - It doesn't travel. - How did it come? - It just came in like a bag. - And how far did it go? - It comes in like a hot plastic bag. So they deliver it in a hot plastic bag, you open it, it steams out the bag, and then you do have to like put it in the, it's like, you know, it's a thing. - Wow, that, mm. - I just think, I just think, just order it anyway, and just accept the fact that it's not gonna be, it's not gonna be, it's not gonna come out like fully plated with a fucking-- - No. - Yeah, it's fine. You chose to order in. - Yeah, yeah. - Take responsibility. - Well, I just think, you know, a lot of my conversations right now at work are like people being like, "Oh my God, let's order this thing and this thing "and this thing to the theater." And then people being like, "Well, no, that doesn't travel." I'm like, "What are you talking about? "Just order it." - Well then, and also, like then fine, like why, I wonder why it's an option then if it doesn't travel it certainly would have been taken off the menu you know what i mean and restaurants are coming up with a great new innovative ways to to you know set you up for success yeah new packaging new packaging oh let's put the noodles and a broth in separate i love when they do that genius i know it's extra plastic but you know but you know um i have one i just realized i have and i think it's i love when you just realize it's relevant okay mine wasn't no no yours was super relevant yours is relevant i'm just i'm happy i'm happy and enchanted okay that it's relevant i didn't think i'd have a relevant one today oh you're always relevant this is matt rogers i don't think sony's time starts now i don't think so honey you can't say yes to giving a positive sign on every single book jacket when when people reach out to you you have to be discerning because sometimes i see blurbs from a lot of the same people gia tolentino no oh i see you in a lot of blurbs she's a i know you love this book but you were also on the the story of your life she's gonna be just saying how dare you 30 seconds i'm kidding with her she's gonna love this she's gonna love it we're gonna write a book and we are gonna send it to you and we want you to be honest and if you come back and say no that i will respect that i will respect that but if you say yes i'll be like will you say yes to every book i see you on every book jacket gia tolentino i don't think so honey and i'm here's what i'll say every single book i've seen you on has been delightful and that's what makes you gia tolentino don't listen to me i hope you never do and that's one minute oh my god she's gonna love that she's gonna love it oh she's gonna love it one of the most brilliant one of the most brilliant honestly and by the way the collection of people you have book jacketing we're so that's the best part let us go crazy that's the best part well it's like you've you've you've are you like done you're doing this now you're doing this now we are especially after um we've read your book we're gonna take more time but when you're done you're like oh it's done and then you have to start doing that and you feel like it's gonna be a piece of shit and it's not until other people start reading it and they're like this was really good and you feel like no no it wasn't what are you talking about and it's like the best feeling in the world like our blur like we that's those are the best people these are really good and lena dunham and i love that it says author of fame sick not creator of girls etc author of fame when you're putting this together that book had just come out was doing incredibly remember like this rocks like this oh yeah perfect and i will also say i love that you guys shared a bio on the jacket you guys can do that that was a conversation yeah that would be nice for us i think it'd be nice for us to share also our photo just a party photo i know i know because we didn't fucking care because we didn't care and guess what i love it one less photo shoot great by me one less photo shoot with less of a risk for glaine maxwell's name to be on the to get a photo you know what it should be it should be uh so rogers and bell and yang are the hosts of lost culture east us and got their start doing gray's anatomy drag yes oh yeah yeah yes yes just that yes that it should people know your bio they don't even know where you're from with the bio where you're from anywhere um who wants to go first you pick you go first okay i wanted you to pick because i knew you would mine is kind of in conversation with with our conversation oh okay yours is a better finale okay mine is in conversation with bowen sort of okay and that it's related to food and i can get started um okay this is bobby fingers i don't think so honey it's time starts now this is a product of my horrible algorithm but i don't think so honey pretending food is something else oh every time i go on instagram there's a product of protein culture they're telling me that greek yogurt is cheesecake they're telling me that dates are snicker bar snickers bars i watched a woman from scotland last night in my bed crush up a baked sweet potato and say it's a reese's candy bar and i was like no i reject that i'm i'm rejecting not beyond burgers not zoodles desserts yeah it feels especially egregious when it's desserts when you say oh i'm gonna mix up this tub of chobani with jello pudding that's a trend and i'm gonna call it soft serve i'm gonna mix up cottage cheese in a blender and i'm gonna say that it's cheesecake uh-huh that's not what that is it's offensive it's gaslighting 15 seconds we're talking about ai we can't trust anything i want to be able to trust what's on my plate yes it's making a costume out of cuisine drag balons and gay bars not on my plate it's almost like hot ice cream hot ice cream exactly late late which we tried was so crucial absolutely by the way you tried it how was it it was hot chocolate it's mush it's liquid chocolate and they kept saying god bless tyra banks we got to see her stunning in person never seen her in person it was unbelievable greatest moment of my life in the 90 minutes before that they couldn't get the hot ice cream thing to work yeah and i was like which i think they were melting ice cream chocolate and milk i think they were melting the ice cream what is more um what what is what is more appealing hot ice cream or uh serendipity frozen hot chocolate serendipity because they've been doing that for years they got that down yeah that is people are traveling for that it's delicious it's gorgeous hot ice cream paper cup melted puddle there's no i gotta go to australia it makes no sense it makes no sense but then it also that speaks to tyra's brand right yeah she's incredible you know she's recording the audiobook of model model and yes we saw uh oscar montoya would do his i think it was a podcast or for an oscar would read a chapter from monoland every every single episode i think somehow he got away with it because i guess i love this and it goes all the way back people are discovering it now but we've lived with this book in our lives forever i didn't realize they were actually desires to make it a real physical space i think oh yeah yeah it ruined it yeah covid covid is why hot ice cream exists because she because she wanted to do a model land theme park covid they were like no in-person stuff and she literally said i have to pivot to ice cream we need jenny nicholson on the case now are you guys familiar oh my god a six hour well she's the youtuber she's so good journalistic sort of she has bona fides yes body pulitzer nobel macarthur i've never seen anything like the star wars hotel four and a half hour video or the evermore um park in utah three hour takedown where she does go into the lawsuit with taylor swift it is stunning i've never seen that one it's you're both gonna love it um bobby the food you're right if you if you're gonna call that soft serve then words lose meaning that's thank you it's a semantics it's a semantics issue and it's like and i don't have a problem with the beyond burger i don't i like sure yeah also beyond burger feels like any sort of like fake plant feels like an attack on vegans right yes a burger is a patty between buns dessert implies delicious and i'll tell you what's not delicious chobani mix with jello pudding yeah that's a big my algorithms are a total nightmare but it's like they're all mixing chobani pudding with sugar-free jello mix uh-huh uh-huh sugar-free jello pudding mix and then putting in like rainbow sprinkles and being like you made ice cream and you can eat the whole tub and it's only 500 why would i why would you but explain the potato and theresa's pieces uh reese's peanut butter cups oh sorry sorry not the pieces although i'm sure there's a recipe they bake the sweet potato they mash it down in a uh like a loaf pan yeah and then they drizzle some special chocolate and no peanut butter first which is probably like a bad peanut butter and then chocolate and then they cut it into circles and they're like it's reese's peanut why is it circles it's not that so much why is it circles sweet potato just eat it i know why is that to be circles i just feel like it's it's way more offensive than fake entrees yeah i agree and it seems like a different thing too than like the is it cake of it like yeah it's that seems like a different thing too it's also meant to deceive and it's all going back to like the protein craze which i find a little bit nauseating at this point yeah it's like we don't need to make every meal that we have have 50 grams of protein in it right well it's also it's it's only to sell it because people are still people haven't questioned why you know what i mean it's just like oh it's high in protein i'm told to do this well have you seen i'm i'm sorry to linger no it's it's instagram influencing food influencing but have you seen the tables are already turning now all the fiber girlies are like now's my time to shine girls because they're like this protein needs a compliment and that's beans the five girls are coming for the program i actually wonder i wonder culturally how we're doing in terms of fiber not well i don't think so i'm doing great yeah you are i've been so happy i know you never heard i know i never stopped i know it's a bean house it's a bean house i wish i had eaten those we had we had a dinner last night and there was tons of beans beans i don't want to eat that i'm only eating the fish and then now where am i i'm at a loss fiber wise you're at a loss you're at a deficit i'm in a fiber deficit you know what one time i bought off shark tank fried chicken ice cream and how was it it was maple flavored i vanilla like ice cream with in the shape of a chicken oh my god and it was like um they were not it was like crunchy crumbs and crunchies on it and so did you and it look you know what it was fine but it existed for the conceit yeah not because it was very good it was like yeah someone was like oh it might be a fun idea to have ice cream look like chicken like speaking to the is it cake of it all tank we used to invent scrubs i know amazing sponges sorry yes yes yes we used to uh innovate sponges now we're we're not doing that anymore it doesn't seem I think Bethany broke it yeah you could say that about a few other things and I do Burning Man Burning Man Burning Man she broke crabs as a crab lover dating tuna yeah totally chicken salad I mean you can't go to a seafood restaurant anymore after she ate she bit through the through the through the crab claws we had we had an awkward encounter with her on the way to Canada it was not fun on the way in here no on the way to we each got we got separately flown out to Cannes for this like you know advertisers for Cannes Lions for Cannes Lions and we were kind of corralled into the same like waiting area to wait for our bags to come out did she confront she did not confront but she could tell that we were not fans like she she knew him because he's a them yeah and then he goes Matt's here too and she looks at me half smiles and goes I kid you not she goes oh that's you that's kind of iconic I love that that's a good one I love that I was just like yep and then we had like small small talk about it was of course she was she went on about some grievance about flying in airports and we were like totally listen if that wasn't the case with some people then you really would be too far gone with this podcast because you you're still expressing your well here's the thing here's what I here's what I respect about her yeah same thing I hope to say about myself one day yeah she never fucking changed for anyone she was maybe she got more extreme but she Bethany is Bethany and is gonna Bethany and will will always be Bethany and she was Bethany in that moment she was so Bethany and also it actually we never really talked about this but I actually kind of enjoyed that because it reminded me of when I really loved Bethany she knew what you wanted kind of well she was doing it whenever someone is in front of you and they're doing it it's like the Sandra Bullock of it all Bethany was talking about like yeah well you know the reason why these rooms are a little smaller is because well you've heard about this and you know I really didn't enjoy that and she kind of was going the whole looking at me and going oh that's you she was doing it and not to not to be like I would be so overwhelmed if that happened to me and it gave me a model which is what like in it's best moments Housewives gives us it's like a model for like conflict and resolution where if I were now I kind of know I would try to be inspired by that behavior if I were to run into someone who like I and this has happened a few times where like I know someone's talked shit about me and I'll be like oh hey that's you that's a great way to just diffuse it like Bethany taught us something in that moment there's always always been always been I mean even predating Hollywood in industry there like throughout civilizations there has been gossip and like didn't did you define gossip in this book I think so didn't we I think we define it we define but you just you quote Capote which is all gossip is that's what it was what is it literature gossip is literature yeah I love that yes and I it sort of made me rethink him in a way too because it's like what exactly did these women think he's like listening for the story right he would have told that to the group chat that would have been an incredible voice note but he's Truman Capote so he exactly knows but these women see him as something serviceable and useful someone who is useful to them so they were telling somebody who they knew could tell the story in an interesting way which is what profiles should be why your podcast is great like all that sort of that you can see everything of it all too it's like I'm inviting you I'm still I'm still processing we just talked about it for an hour and a half we still know yeah but yes you're right that's totally it are you ready for I don't think so honey okay I want to be clear I thought of this before our conversation but I'm so happy it's relevant okay amazing it's so relevant this is Lindsay Webber I don't think so honey your time starts now okay I don't think so honey pivot to video yeah gorgeous set yeah everyone looks fabulous you are camera ready don't don't mistake me whatever but gone are the days yeah where we could just speak so directly into our microphone directly into our to the parasocial nature of our audiences yeah we could be in pajamas we could do things at our leisure I'm really just like speaking to you guys at our leisure you know I just feel like it's hearkening back to radio now we've taken it to TV why do we need more TV we don't need more TV we need more radio and in this way I feel like we also could use more podcasts but now I'm like only podcasts that are audio only right the celebrities are taking over they love TV they love to be on camera but us we don't and that's how we do it we're different yeah and that is literally all I have to say about that and that's one minute honestly thank you it's so funny because like I think it's like it speaks to this idea that the celebrity podcast is so cyclical because they realize they don't want to do it they just wanted to make easy money in their purview and be on camera but that's why I love our 10 year like we know what it takes and we're listening and we're editing and we're thinking and we're adjusting and we're doing and like they don't they can't do that they can't take that from us I know and like part of me wants to just like like do it like I mean you guys are doing it like the Marin way he's like don't ever bring a camera a video camera into my fucking garage like he fully it's interesting that he fully stopped he just stopped he saw it turn and also he was he became another he was so early he was so early I was lucky enough to like be like one of his last episodes and we it was just I just went over to his hotel and then we just we just a dark unlit hotel room and it was kind of like I was it was a little bit entrancing I was like oh I'm I'm not used to this anymore right a podcast like it's so so cause and now it just feels kind of stupid to see the mics in front of us you know what I mean it's like no it feels great you know what I mean everyone did a great job no no no I love this I love this I love all of this every single person in the room is looking down at their phones and we're like we're talking to them and they're not looking they don't care here's the thing are people even watching them or are they just listening to them so get this they are they oh we got the stats they are they are but it's funny because now you start to see the conversation take hold online which is like what is happening when this part of the podcast went down and it's like oh right because we were a visual we forgot about the audio and we used to joke podcasts are a visual medium that was like a bit that we did for years and now it's like video killed the radio star again again again again see this is a trap this is the trap and I hope and I'm not even saying like I want this to happen but if it eventually does as we know it's cyclical when the cameras turn off that you two go right back to audio only oh yeah we'll be fine absolutely we're gonna survive because we'll still be here we'll be here so will we waiting for you oh my god we'll be there we've been talking about it a lot and I feel like it's kind of high time that we sort of acknowledge the fact that it's all changed yeah because it does feel like this weird elephant in the room and so that's another reason why it's been so nice to talk to you guys specifically about all this stuff is because it would be weird to not we talk about like pop culture in our industry and we have all been doing it for a long time now over a decade so to be able to talk about it with people that get it and that have lived it and are living it and it seems like seeing it happen is like really nice and refreshing and makes me feel less self-conscious about it I think you go where your show takes you yeah you know what I mean and we wouldn't be able to do the show the way that we want to do our show because we edit it and it's so topical and we don't have yes it's just us or whatever we wouldn't be able to do it unless we were taping it at 9am on like Mondays and Thursdays like in our underwear with cans on like at our own houses we just wouldn't be able to do it and that's the nature of why it's audio only yeah you gotta get it you gotta get the book you gotta get the book no but for real it's I wanna be famous when everybody and nobody is a celebrity by these two and be listening to the podcast it's and as Lena Dunham says on the book jacket come for the laughs and incredible cultural deep cuts stay for the exegesis exegesis yep exegesis and that's why she exegesis that's why she's Lena that's why she's Lena on how we wound up dot dot dot here before we go thoughts on the girls revival we talked on our episode about our last episode about what we wanna see hopes and dreams for the five episodes what do you guys wanna see from the five episodes I'm nervous but we loved In Just Like That yeah we loved it copy so if it's anything in that realm sure I'm happy to see it yeah which is to say it can do anything it can do anything and you will be happy it can be anything also five episodes yeah that's what I wanted I wanted something limited and I want something that visually looks like it yes because I think one of the jarring things about In Just Like That is it doesn't look like sex I know it's jarring aesthetically and if it looks like girls like we're just back to the same old look and vibe same color grade same cameras I'll be really happy exactly so as long as all the girls are there yeah and they're gonna be there if the girls all agree then we will be there I think we're getting the girls and Andrew Rita Wilson Rita Wilson Rita Wilson which I think says great things about Marnie the fact that Rita Wilson is in it means that she's still in a weird codependent relationship with her mother who was one of the most underrated characters on that show yes and why Lena and Rita Wilson are such close friends which I'm obsessed with I love it I hope they're at the Chelsea Cafe right now I believe it brainstorming we'll take more girls you know Rita has ideas come on unwanted ideas wanted ideas talk about a triple threat she's filled with ideas she's our queen have her on the pod honestly at this point yeah have her on the pod cameras off accosted her in public once and she was just like totally fine with it I was like I'm sorry can I say hi and she was like yes I love her so much. Because one thing about her is she's the mother of Chet Hayes. One thing about her. But isn't it Chet Hayes? Oh, Chet Hayes. It is Chet Hayes. Chet Hayes, Chet Hanks. And that's his stage name. He might get mad at Hayes these days. I think he doesn't like being reminded of the Hays. Okay. He's Hanks now. Oh, because he's sober now? Well, it's not necessarily a sobriety thing. It's like that's an identity that he's trying to distance himself from. Oh, sure, sure, sure. And we should respect that. He's like a pro. Respect him. Yeah. Everyone out there, let that be the last thing you hear. Respect Chet. It's actually a rule of culture. Number 49. No, don't do it. Respect Chet. I think he's worthy of respect and dignity. My favorite episode of Z-Way ever. That's for sure. See, and he did like that show. He put himself in the line of fire and he said, I get this. I get what's going on here. I'll do it. I will say this. I don't watch and consume all of our peers' stuff. I watch every episode of Z-Way. I love her. That's one of the original torturies. I was one of the first torturies. Yeah, and that. Brave. You had no idea what you were in for. Never could have known. Those are the funniest episodes. I would be a part of culture. And he spelled Colin Kaepernick's name perfectly. K-A-E-P-E-R-N-I-C-K. There you go. We end every episode with a song. Oh. I will never let you down. Whoa. And thank you also for shouting out this one. I'm grateful. Stream Rita. Bye. bye last culturist this is the production by will ferrell's big money players and i heart radio podcasts created and hosted by matt rogers and bowen yang executive produced by anna hosnier and produced by becca ramos edited by hot dog sandwich and our music is by henry kabrowski hey everybody it's me matt and my tour is on sale now this time it's really christmas you can go to www.mattrodgersofficial.com podcasts are a visual medium if you're not watching me right now i am holding in my hands my vinyl it's called have you heard of christmas the answer to that question is coming at this time it's really christmas i'm playing all over the country and in london and in canada that makes it a world tour harry styles you're on burn notice i'll see you soon this ad is sponsored by vive health care everybody who's considering investing in health care is ready to invest in health care is ready to invest in health care not all injectable prep options are the same you got to talk to your doctor about it and you got to ask the right questions is there an option that fits your lifestyle what about other meds and injection site reactions these are some questions your doctor has the answers start the conversation in the meantime visit get prep wisdom.com wait i came in for two things how is this 47 dollars all right we're gonna need a plan here just start simple with bank of america advantage safe balance banking no overdraft item fees no monthly maintenance fee if you're under 25 oh that's actually really simple safe balance banking one less thing to figure out learn more at b of a.com slash simple banking terms and conditions apply bank of america and a member fdic some people like working twice as hard just to stay right where they are and in ohio we really don't get it because to us owning a home in your 30s working in tech without the traffic and still being able to make it to your kids soccer game sounds pretty good in fact ohio is the second most affordable state to buy a home your move learn more at your move ohio.com this is martha stewart have you ever started a new tradition here's a hint do it with lennox lennox has always meant timeless holiday beauty and the lennox space village is the perfect holiday gift imagine ginger from a georgian townhouse or pepper from your favorite swiss chalet lennox has brought timeless beauty and quality to tables and homes for generations baking together sharing recipes decorating suddenly simple pleasures become part of your holiday story forever when you give a gift that lasts beyond the holidays it's an amazing feeling when you give a gift that lasts beyond the holidays it's an amazing feeling when you