The Yosemite Park Murders: A Serial Killer's Confession

[birds chirping] Massive Sequoias towered across the frosted valleys of Yosemite National Park. Just miles away, 42-year-old Carol Sundt, her 15-year-old daughter Julie, and 16-year-old Silvina Paloso, had just retired for the evening at the Cedar Lodge Motel. Silvina was an exchange student from Argentina and a close family friend of the sons, vacationing with them for her winter break. Making stops across California, the trio would finish their trip at Yosemite. After a long day of hiking through Sequoia groves, they rented videos from the front desk of the motel and headed back to their room to rest. Room 509 at the Cedar Lodge Motel would be the backdrop of an otherwise lovely trip until the trio heard a knock at the door. I'm Emily Campagno, and this is the Fox True Crime Podcast. [music] On February 15, 1999, Carol, Julie, and Silvina disappeared from their motel room at the Cedar Lodge, along with a red Pontiac Grand Prix that Carol rented for the trip. An intensive search ensued as law enforcement agents scoured the park looking for traces of the mother and the two young girls. Four days after their disappearance, Carol's wallet was found along a highway in Modesto, California. As police investigated the area, the missing rental car was found in a secluded part of California, hours away from Yosemite National Park. Only a charred shell of the car remained. Inside the trunk were the burned bodies of Carol and Silvina. Julie was still missing. Six days after the discovery, the FBI received a letter with a hand-drawn map of Lake Don Pedro, reading "We Had Fun With This One." The map led authorities to Julie's remains. For months, law enforcement worked tirelessly to identify the killer of the three women pursuing leads in Northern California. Just as the trail went cold, horror struck again. On July 22, 1999, the body of 26-year-old Joey Armstrong, an educator at Yosemite National Park, was found decapitated near her cabin. Two days later, investigators tracked down the man responsible for the horrifying string of murders. His name was Carrie Stainer. Today, I'm joined by the original lead investigator, who obtained the confession from Carrie. Retired FBI agent Jeff Reineck. You were the original case agent in charge. We're here to hear your story and your unparalleled perspective of the events that really gripped Northern California and the rest of the nation between February and July 1999 and the ensuing investigation. Tell us what happened during that time and describe the case for us. I was in the Sacramento Division. In each FBI division, there's a headquarters city and there's smaller offices on the outskirts. Those are called resident agencies. I worked out a headquarters city in Sacramento. But in the second week of February of 1999, because I was a Kignapkin coordinator and the crimes against children coordinator, I started getting queries about a woman and her daughter and a friend missing from the Yosemite area. Normally, this would not be something I would respond to, but in this case, the Modesto resident agency, which is the primary agency to handle this, was busy on another investigation. So the head of our division, the SAC, asked me to go down there. I did. I went down there on Monday, February 22nd. I met with Modesto Agent Terry Scott and the two of us began doing our interviews. Normally, when you have something like this, you're going to start interviewing with the people that have last seen the victims along with the family of the victims. And, you know, I hate to say it, but in a lot of cases, you've got marital issues you can factor in. So if, for instance, the wife decides she's had enough and she goes off on her own. And in this case, the woman that was missing is Carol Sun, her daughter Julie, and a friend they had with them from Argentina named Sylvena Paloso. Carol and Sylvena's mother had been exchange students in Argentina and here. And they did so well, got along so well that they decided they would continue this with the daughters. So Sylvena, being here for Julie, was exactly the way Carol would have been there for Sylvena's mom. The game plan, they lived in Humboldt, which is the northern edge or the northern part of California. And their game plan was to fly from Humboldt County down to San Francisco International Airport. There they would rent a car and they were going to drive to the University of the Pacific because Julie wanted to check out the cheerleading program. And then after they did that, they proceeded down to Yosemite to do sightseeing. Now, Carol's husband is named Yens and Yens' role was to fly to San Francisco on Saturday and meet them. And then all four of them together were going to fly to Arizona to spend time with Yens' sister. So, at around February 15th, Yens was not able to reach them. And he actually came in to San Francisco and they weren't there. And he did what every good husband does. He felt like he got it wrong and that he was going to be in trouble. But he continued on out to Arizona with his sister. After he'd been out there for a little while, he still was unable to reach them. And this is where he started becoming concerned. So, he made contact with the Marricosa County Sheriff's Department who began a missing person's investigation. They disappeared somewhere around February 15th. And as they were looking for them, there was no reason for disrespect foul player or anything. But on Friday, February 19th, a person walking by an intersection in Modesto, which is about 60 miles away from where they were staying, found a wallet insert. And that wallet insert came from Carol's wallet. And it was Carol's identifying the information. The person turned it into the Modesto Police Department. And the Modesto Police Department appropriately checked the NCIC, the National Crime Information Center, to see if there was anyone reported missing. And sure enough, they saw that Carol's son was reported missing out of El Patel. And so Modesto contacted Marricosa. And now you've got this element of concern because the wallet insert is so far away. And all these possibilities are going through everyone's mind, car accident. Did they just keep on driving and have more of a vacation? God forbid something bad had happened to them. I in the Sacramento Division was the kidnapping coordinator and the crimes against children coordinator. And I had a lot of good fortune working cases of children and cold cases. And I believe that the nature of our office made us all seem really good. And I mean, we all collaborated with each other and as a result, we were successful. The special agent in charge of our office asked me to be the case agent for this. And on February 22, which was a Monday, I reported down to Modesto and I met a special agent, Terry Scott. Terry and I decided that we would start by going to interview the family. Carol's father, enter husband and people that they employed had come down to Modesto, had gotten a set of rooms in the holiday in express and had actually got a hold of a room there and made a command post. And they were doing their own search, looking for Carol and Julian, Silvina. And so Terry and I naturally went over there to meet with them. It took us a little while. We finally found Yens. And we interviewed Yens for so hours. And after that was done, you know, then the next day, everything started in full. There was a search begun. It was the most intense search in California history for Yosemite. They actually had a Navy P2 plane flying overhead looking for, you know, metal, which it could detect like a submarine. And then there was this just massive fear that they had had a car accident. or driven off a cliff or something bad had happened to them. And so you had the intense search and rescue going. At the same time, we, the FBI, we always start with the last people to see our victims and the family. And so I started doing interviews of the last people that were with them. When Carol and the girls got to the Cedar Lodge where they were staying in Elpertale, the girls wanted their own set of keys for the room. And there was only one set. So a handyman came down and replaced the lock and gave keys to Carol and to the girls. So of course, we interviewed him. And then we started going through the employees at the Cedar Lodge. Nothing was really working out that well. Everybody was very cooperative, but it was a difficult thing. I love muscle cars, you know, fast cars. And so I, I'm usually very heavy on the accelerator. And the reason I bring that up is because at this time of year, in this area, there was a lot of rain, there was a lot of cold weather. It was dangerous driving. And against my own judgment, I slowed down because it was just so risky driving in that. But it also impressed upon me the possibility that they could have had an accident. And something could have happened as they were driving. So things like that continued, the search continued, our interviews continued. There was nothing happening. And then on March 19th, as a result of the publicity about the rental car that was missing with them, there was a person who went into the California Highway Patrol and had a license plate. And the license plate was from the rental vehicle. And the California Highway Patrol officer called us, let us know he had this license plate and that they believed they knew where the car was. And the car was located east of a small town named Sonora. I think it's you from California, might remember Sonora. It was out on Route 108. And eventually, the California Highway Patrol guy said the car was in a little bit of a fire. But when they got to the car, it was completely burned out. The paint had rolled off. The tires had melted, had popped and melted. Everything was just completely destroyed. They determined that the fire had reached 25 feet into the air and had actually burned at a temperature of almost 2,000 degrees, which is hot enough to melt everything. So everything in that car became this pool of melted material. Can I just say for a moment? Because you mentioned me being from Northern California also. And I really went listeners to understand that this is gold country. This is the mouth of Yosemite National Park. And so when you picture the landscape, it's incredibly stunning, dramatic, theatrical, really beautiful, lush trees everywhere, evergreen trees, mountainous passes. And it represents the graduation between the foothills. And again, that gold country, winding roads, oak trees, golden, long grasses, and then heading up into the Sierra Mountains in the Yosemite National Park, which is a glacial car of DeValley. So this is really high elevation. And you're describing Jeff a wet winter. So as you're describing the scene, I'm contrasting your description of the wet, very wet winter with also that your description of a 25 feet high car fire. And if I may, can I ask you to describe a little bit more for us the Cedar Lodge that you mentioned, where Carol and Julie and Silvina were staying? Because it's my recollection that that's sort of a mountain home type quaint lodge. Well, I should preface it by telling you that I took my family to the Cedar Lodge when we stayed there one night. And the Cedar Lodge was just a very rustic, beautiful place to stay. It was seven miles outside of the park entrance. It's a place where people go on vacation. So then the search continued. The Cedar Lodge had a different way of doing business. What they did was-- and I'm not here to judge them. I don't run a motel. I don't know what's right or what's not. But what they did was they would bring in a cleaning crew and clean all of the rooms, the whole place. They would just do a massive cleaning. And then as people would start checking in, they would start them in the rooms and suites closest to the administrative office. And then as people used the rooms, they didn't clean them. They simply moved their guests further out. And by the time Carol and the girls got there, their room was 509, which was as bad as far out as you can get it was in the 500 building. That also put them in a position of being relatively alone. On March 19th is when the California Highway Patrol Office are called into our office to advise that he had the license plate. And when they went out to check the car, our evidence response team from our office, which I just think, I think the FBI's evidence response team was one of the best things they've ever developed. And my friend, my partner, was the head of our evidence response team. So they went out there and methodically started going through the car, which was just burnt out beyond belief. And as they did this, they opened up the trunk of the rental vehicle. And sure enough, they could see that there were elements of two skeletons back there. They couldn't tell who it was. But what really weighed on us was that we knew there were three missing. We saw two skeletons. The third one might still be alive. And her survival might be dependent on us doing our job. So I think what people don't see when they see the FBI working is that we become very driven, very emotionally driven, that when there's someone out there who could be in danger, there's nothing we won't do to try and find them. And when we don't, a lot of times we look at that failure as our own, even though it wasn't. In this case, the car provided the two victims. And then there was this massive search on for the third one. And now it was known it was a crime. The car had been burned. We've got two victims in the trunk. And now we're looking for the third. And around this time, about a week later, a letter was received at our Modesto resident agency from the supervisor. And that letter contained a map. And the map said, we had fun with this one. And so the FBI was just beginning its dog program then. So they brought up a dog from LA. And within seconds of being out of the car, the dog recovered or located Julie's remains. And Julie's remains were by Don Pedro Reservoir. And they were hidden in the brush. So now we knew all three were dead. And now it was a question of the fear of, if there's someone out there could do this again, is something happening, which puts the other visitors in danger. So of course, we just started doing everything we could to work this through. This was turning into the spring now, because we started in February. And then the car was recovered in March. And then the investigation just continued on. There was a massive effort on the part of all the law enforcement agencies. And nothing was really working. And the elements of what had happened to Carol and the girls was still a question mark. So after the Julie's body was located, then there was a task force set up of the local agencies to try and solve this, what had happened, and to make sure the threat that might have been present for others was addressed and removed. And the letter had been received. The letter had had a lot of DNA on the envelope. In fact, our lab said that the envelope looked like someone had slabbered on it, which isn't normal. And the DNA was being examined, but it wasn't really producing anything definitive. And DNA to some degree can tell you different members of a population. They don't like to do it, and it's not really reliable. But in this case, they believe there might have been a possibility that whoever contributed that DNA might have been of a Hispanic origin. Around this time, I was busy at home with my family. We had had some family issues. And so I started explicating myself. And the investigation was continually being run by our special agent in charge. He was pretty much taking it over and working it according to what he wanted to do. So, from the period of late March on, I was back in Sacramento and I was no longer involved with the case. In July of, on July 21, my partner, Chris Hopkins, the evidence team leader, and I were attending a violent crime conference put on by the California Department of Justice in Sacramento. And while we were there, Chris received an alert that there was someone missing from the area of Yosemite and that he needed to respond. I was not needed, so Chris went out there. And again, the location of this incident was in Ferresta, which was relatively close to Upper Town. So of course, there was a concern. The special agent charged set up a command post and he was handling everything out of the command post. And a short while later, they determined that the missing person, her name is Joey Armstrong. She was a naturalist. She lived in a green cabin with others. She paid a dollar a year to the park service to live there and her job was to introduce the beauty and sanctity of the park to children and have them enjoy it. She was a very, very special person. And they began searching for Joey because she was missing. And in a short period of time, they located her remains and they also located that her head had been removed from her body and was in a different location. Around this time, I was home with my family and that particular weekend, my wife had planned a very romantic weekend because our sons were back east of New Jersey. And so I was feeling the marital pressure of having to do well. And next thing I know in the morning on the 24th of July, I'm getting a call from the office telling me I need to respond to this location south of Sacramento. And they really didn't have any information. But when the security clerk told me that my two partners, John Bowles and Ken Hittmire were requesting me, that's pretty much, you know, that's what we all are. If I hear they need me, I'm getting dressed and going. And sure enough, you know, I got to the car. Again, I have a heavy foot. So I was the first one down to what turned out to be the Laguna del Sol Nuitous Colony. I've never been to a Nuitous Colony before. And the closest experience I've ever had with a Nuitous Colony was Peter Sellers in a shot in the dark. So I had no idea what to expect. I was the, you know, because of my heavy foot and I was driving a thunderbird, I got down there first. And it was kind of a little entertaining. I mean, I hate to use that word as such a bad instance. But the head guy at the Laguna del Sol was waiting for us at the outside gate. And he was pretty fired up because the person he was concerned about was wearing clothes. And that, to him, meant that that person was a risk. So now it should be noted that, you know, responding to the Laguna del Sol was myself. John Bowles can't hit my ear. And we also contacted the Sacramento County Sheriff's Department. So they would send their people down with us. People need to understand the FBI. We work by judicial districts, federal judicial districts. But when we go to a county or something, that county has a sheriff's department or a facility. They have a police department. It's important for us to coordinate with them or with them. And that's how we do better is when we're working together. More of the Fox true crime podcast. This is Ainsley Earhart. Thank you for joining me for the 52 episode podcast series, The Life of Jesus. A listening experience that will provide hope, comfort and understanding of the greatest story ever told. Listen and follow now at Foxnewspodcasts.com or wherever you listen to podcasts. I mean, going back, I've questions about the investigation. So you discussed that part of the reason that you were chosen to lead this case from the beginning was because of your prolific work along with your team there in the Sacramento office. And I heard a little bit about why specifically you were identified to lead this case when it was a missing mother and daughter and friend case. I served in the New York office in Manhattan for 11 years and I met my wife Lori there. And she knew that I did not want to stay in New York. And we agreed that we would look for a place to live. Lori, out of master's degree in human physiology. So right away, you know, she's smarter than I am. And she laid out a plan for us to go to different places that we would consider a living. And the reason I'm sharing this with you is because we eventually decided on the Sacramento area, but right around that time our oldest son Joe was about three and a half years old and he was diagnosed with a very serious kidney disease called pediatric nephrodic syndrome. And that's a situation where your kidneys receive protein molecules that have not been processed by your body. And as a result, the capillaries are all perforated. And he developed what's called a demo, which is a tremendous swelling. And the reason I'm telling you this is because it was very rare that a child would get this. And the symptoms, the treatments, let me put it like this. Lori and I learned what it was like to have a medical entourage with us when we were in the hospital with our son because it was that dire. Lori is emotionally stronger than me and she handled it better than I did. One of the ways it affected me is that when we got out the Sacramento and were settled in, I was assigned to a case involving a seven-month-old baby that had been abducted. And I worked with the Sacramento Police Department and Detective named Greg Stewart. And in four days, we were able to locate the child. And a couple of things presented itself in my life. And the number one thing was that the thought of a child suffering at the hands of a stranger was absolutely unbearable to me. And myself and Greg and those of us working in it, we just were like rabid investigators trying to find this child. And luckily we did. And as every bureaucracy, including the FBI, when they find a guy who had success, they think it's going to be successful every time. And so I started getting all these cases assigned to me. And I think as a result of what I experienced with my son and my wife and we had a second son, I felt my calling. And not like, oh, this is what I want to do. And whatever it was, when I got word, it was a child missing. I just, what is it with different gear, I guess. And in April or May of 1996, there was an eight-year-old boy named Michael Lyons that was abducted and murdered. So what happened with me was I started learning. And what I also, one of the things I learned is that in the law enforcement community, even going across agency boundaries, the people that work these cases bond with each other. And they formed like a second family. And there was a detective named Steve Hill that took me under his wing and introduced me to everyone. And then I became friends with the parole supervisor and the California Department of Corrections, the parole bureau, had a program where sex offenders being released on parole would have to agree to a law enforcement interview. And this interview was an opportunity to ask them any questions and learn so that we can apply what we learned to other cases. And it was, in my opinion, brilliant. And I think it made all of this much better. And it also created, at network among ourselves, that when things were happening, we knew who to call to get things done. So because I had involved myself in this and was part of this, I actually joined the California Sexual Assault Investigators Association. And I was dealing with all these cases. And then people in the office that were getting cases were calling me to help. And I would always help. And because of the people I worked with being so remarkable, it appeared that I was successful when it was actually us. Jeff described for us the scene at Cedar Lodge that you encountered when law enforcement responded after reports of Carol and Julie and Sylvina were missing. I don't think people realize how difficult it is for sheriff's departments in these rural communities because they also have search and rescue. They're dealing with people that disappear like this. So they went in to room 509. And again, keep in mind that room 509 is way out from the office and by itself. And when they went into room 509, they found wet towels in the bathroom as if somebody had gotten showered and left. That was the impression. They had found some foods that was left behind. They had found evidence that someone had stayed there the night before the girls were watching the film "Jerry McGuire" I think with Tom Cruise. That was still there. So the impression was that they had just gotten up, showered and left. And that was all there was at DeCeter Lodge. And from that point on, we began our normal preliminary steps for searching and investigating. If I remember correctly, a pillowcase that was missing. There was a pillowcase in the building. A blanket that was missing. And there was a feminine napkin found in the bathroom trash can. But I think, at least for me, those items initially don't cause an investigative concern. When you consider them all together, then you've got a different story. And that's one of the things that I think the Mariposa Sheriff's Department did really well. They determined there was a pink blanket missing. They determined there was a pillowcase missing. They determined that it appeared that they had left under normal circumstances. But at the same time, there were indications that might not have been the case because of the belongings being left behind and the feminine napkin in the bathroom. And can you remind me all the photos that the girls were taking. And we have not photos from that that what we now realize might have been their last moments, etc. Remind me where those photos were found. When the car was located, the evidence response team did what's called a grid search in the area of the car looking for anything that might have been discarded. And during that time, they located Carol's pocketbook. And inside the pocketbook was a camera. So they immediately got the film processed. And the pictures that you're referring to were Carol and Silvina are standing by them or said River, they're standing by a trail, they're ice skating. These were all found from the camera. But they virtually were taking photos where they went. They had actually taken a photo in the house family restaurant there at the theater lodge. It was Silvina sitting on a bar stool. The thing that was very dramatic, motionally, is that there were pictures taken. It looked like Julie had taken the picture of Carol and Silvina sitting on their beds. And there were also pictures they had taken in the room. Silvina and Julie, because of their cheerleading, they were doing like handstands in the room, things like that. And what actually occurred was that the pictures from the room that showed them also showed some of their shoes and clothing. And one of the shoes in the foreground of one of the pictures matched a shoe that was recovered at the car. And so it was pretty clear that these pictures had been taken very, very close to whatever had happened to them. After the car was located on March 19th, and there was the search looking for our third missing victim. During that time, the supervisor of the Modesto resident agency was looking at the mail coming in. And he opened the letter and it was a map. It showed Don Pedro Reservoir. And it said we had fun with this one. And it was clear that whoever had sent that intended it to be taken as a location for a victim. Unfortunately, people do this all the time. So when the letter was first received, it was dealt with immediately, which was the right thing to do. But a lot of times letters like that come in and they don't turn out to be right or you get calls from psychics, things like that. But in this case, because of that letter being so detailed and the map being so detailed, they called for an agent and a dog handler agent and the dog from LA to come up and look in the area of the map. The map was the guy that used for the dog. And within seconds of exiting the car, the dog immediately hit on Julie's remains. And Julie's remains were overlooking Don Pedro Reservoir. They were so much rolled down a hill and they had been hidden in brush. Once Julie was found, the case went cold for a few more months and then another young woman was found murdered in Yosemite. What can you tell us about Joey Armstrong? Joey Armstrong was scheduled to be in the central coast of California to meet friends. Joey Armstrong, absolute unique special person. She was the epitome of nature. She appreciated everything in nature. She loved it. She loved the park. And so everyone had only wonderful things. And when you think of a teacher at Yosemite teaching children, she is the perfect embodiment of that concept. So she's very, very special. And her friends that were waiting for her on the central coast, she didn't show up and they became concerned. So they called back to the park and asked them to check on her. See if she was all right. A park ranger then went to the cabin she lived in and he drove down, her cabin was kind of like in a meadow and he drove down, he saw the cabin and he heard music coming from it. Everything looked normal and so he started driving out. And then he said to himself, which I think is special, you know, is that what I would have wanted done if it were my daughter that were missing. So with that thought, he immediately went back and he started looking around. And he said that when he stood at the front door of the cabin, the hairs on the back of his neck stood up, he knew something was not right and he consequently called for backup. And when the people, when searching rescue showed up to look for her, it was pretty well determined that something had happened because they also located things on the floor that had been left behind that might have indicated a struggle. For instance, there was a kind of like a red mechanics rag that was on the ground located by the front door. There were sunglasses, they were only ground located by the front door. And so when everybody responded there, it unfortunately was with the expectation that something had happened. And it was a short time after that that they located her remains. We're going to take a quick break, more from our guest after this. Join Fox in supporting our troops from daily needs of global emergencies. Help us be there for those who serve. Visit go.fox/redcross to donate to service to the armed forces today. All right. So going back to that nudist colony and then the report that you received of the suspicious man who was fully clothed, what happened when you found him and approached? So we proceeded down to Laguna's El Sol. And like I said, the guy had met me at the front. We waited. It was Ken and John and then two Sad County deputies showed up. And the five of us walked up to the restaurant in the Laguna's El Sol. There were two doors into the restaurant and Ken and the two deputies went to the first door we encountered. And John bulls and I went to the second door. And when we made our presence known at the door and Carrie became aware that we were standing at the door, he immediately stood up and put his hands on top of his head like he was the one we were there to arrest. When we had no idea we were there to arrest them. So when we saw him, what I like to say is you know what in the wild world is for is this guy doing standing up, putting his hands on his head and pretty soon it became obvious that that was the person that the command post wanted us to interview. And we didn't know when we were there, what they wanted. We were being told as we were there. And then at one point it came in and said they'd like him to be taken back to the office to be interviewed. And we hadn't expected that. But I was with him at the time and I offered, you know, I said, look, they wanted you to go back to our office to be interviewed. If you're okay with that, I'll drive you back there. And then when you're done, I'll bring you back here and it'll be done. And he agreed to that. Describe the difference for listeners about an interview and an invitation versus custody and and arrest and how that affected your invitation to him. versus what he thought was going to occur. - The information we provided from the command post, we believed that Keri Stainer was a witness, possibly a potential victim, and that he was fleeing a fear for his own welfare. So when we found him down at Laguna del Sol, we had no idea he was a suspect in the murder of Joey Armstrong. And because of that, we treated him just as if he were a witness, and we needed his cooperation, we needed him to give a statement, answer questions, and that's the way it was. Some people have asked me because I drove a two-door thunderbird with the VA, like Fiskars, and since it was two doors, and I offered to bring him back, it was a little bit of a risk because he's gonna be sitting next to me in the front seat. And as a result of that, he had the ability to disrupt the driving and maybe cause an accident. So whenever I and the other guy said, I worked with, had a person unknown to us that was sitting in the next seat over, because we had a two-door car, we handcuffed them behind your back, and we buckled them in with the seatbelt, for our safety and for their safety. So when Carrie agreed to come back to the FBI office, I cuffed him behind his back, and we belted him into his seat, but it was not as an arrested person, it was not your under arrest. His freedom to move, to leave was unchallenged, and he was told that anytime he wanted to end it, we would, you know, end it. And he understood that. When Carrie and I were in my car waiting for guidance to leave, it was an awkward silent moment. And I thought just to be safe, I would read him his rights by Miranda, just because I didn't wanna have empty, quiet space. And so I did, I read him his rights from Miranda, and he said, "Look, I don't wanna sign that now, but when we get back to your office, I told you I would sign it." And so that's what the plan was. Eventually we got the okay to leave. And again, because it's an unsecured position for me as the driver, John Bowles, he followed me back to the FBI office in Sacramento. - Tell us about what you talked about on that 90-minute car ride. Where everybody wants to know what we talked about. And I'm always afraid of letting people's expectations down because just like we're talking now, that's the way we talked in the car. We were two guys that were thrown in a situation together where we were doing something we really didn't wanna do, but we knew we had to. And so we were stuck together. I knew who his brother was. I had previously asked him if we could talk about his brother and he agreed. So I was very, very interested. And as I told him, what he represented to me in that regard was having a window into what it's like for a victim family. And then we can learn from that window and make sure that if whatever we did wrong there, we would do wrong for the next victim family. When we started talking about Stephen, Kerry got emotional. I mean, he definitely, you know, he was teary-eyed, he was emotional. He was very upset because Stephen was abducted in 1973. And he walked out in 1980 after they have abducted another seven-year-old boy. For those of us that work these types of crimes, it's very obvious to me or my theory belief is that, you know, when Stephen's 14, they, he has no attractiveness to these guys anymore because they want young boys. So they went out and abducted another seven-year-old boy. Stephen knew what was happening wasn't right. So he took the new boy, I think his name was Mark Smith. And they were up in Northern California. And he took the boy and the two of them walked in to a local sheriff's substation. And this is how Stephen had saved the boy and brought him in. And I believe there's a movie out there that says, "I think my name is Stephen." And I think what it reflected is that Stephen, I lived with these guys for so long that he actually had started for getting some of his family background. But what Kerry said to me in the car about that was that these guys had kept Stephen for seven years and they got sentenced to prison for seven years. You know, how is that fair that these guys basically were imprisoned for the amount of time that his brother had been kept? In addition to that, Kenneth Parnell, who was one of the subjects that kidnapped Stephen when he was 72 in a wheelchair, he was arrested again for trying to buy another seven-year-old boy. So these are way these guys think. So he was very, very emotional about that. And I told him that I worked these cases and I wanted to know what I could do better. And from his emotional reaction, I believed that it was as difficult on his family as it was on him. And because of the contacts I had, I offered to get therapy and counseling for his parents and for him, if they wanted. And he wanted to consider it. So then as we're driving there, he goes on to tell me that when Stephen came home, it wasn't happily ever after like the rest of the nation wanted to believe. Stephen had different behavior, he had different proclivities, he was disruptive to the family, and he was living a lifestyle that was risk-laden. And eventually when he was 22 years old, he contributed to a car accident where he was killed. He was riding motorcycle. The person that was driving the car that killed them fled the scene and fled to Mexico. And then they eventually extradited him back to California. But when they got him back, they charged him with a misdemeanor and let him go. And Kerry was really, really upset about this. And I said to him, this is, it's okay. I mean, that's the way you should feel, it's your brother. And I said, you know, and what do you think? We, in law enforcement, could have done to help your family deal with this better. And again, we stayed on that topic, but nothing really developed from it. And then we didn't just talk about, we were joking around a lot too. I mean, we were two guys throwing in together. So one of the things that I had to sit through court and listen to was that I was making fun of my wife, Lori, for being a tree hugger. And he was, he was very much into nature as well. That was his thing. He would go be by himself in nature. And I was telling them that, you know, Lori always wanted to go camping. And my idea of camping was, you know, a bad TV and an air conditioner. So, you know, we were joking about that. And then I was in college in the '70s. And one of the movies that came out there was a movie named Billy Jack with a guy named Tom Lawsley. I don't know if you ever saw that movie, but it was one of the first martial arts movies. And Tom Lawsley played a Billy Jack who was a native American who had gone to Vietnam, but he was like special, he was a, you know, a great boy. And he was first in all of the self-defense and martial arts. So they have him coming back in the movies from Vietnam. And he finds that the people he love and care about, they're all being disrupted by a corrupt town government and the corrupt business man. And there's a scene in the movie where Billy Jack is standing across from the antagonist. And he says to him, I'm going to take my right foot and I'm going to hit you upside your face. And there's not a, I think he said, not a damn thing you can do about it. It was just a really, I don't know, it caught on. And then I stepped to Kerry. I said, look, you look just like him. Did you ever see the movie? And so we always went back there during the ride because it was unbelievable to me. He looked so much like him that he wouldn't have seen that movie. And then as we were pulling into the impound or the FBI office in Sacramento, we had to go through a big gate. As I'm pushing in the code and driving through the gate, he recites verbatim the line from that movie. And I looked at him and he started laughing. And I started laughing. I guess now, when I think back on it, I guess that was an element of acceptance. And when we got to the end of the movie, The first thing we did was we took him out of my car, we uncuffed him, and we told him he was free to leave anytime he wanted. All he had to do was tell us. And as an example of the fact that he was non-acoustic, we put him in an interview room that was outside the secured area of the office. So if he wanted to get up and leave, he could. And we even demonstrated. I remember we demonstrated to him that the door was unlocked. So we made it very clear to him that he was not encusted. And so at this point, you've concluded a 90-minute drive with someone that up until now that it's your understanding he's a witness, fearing for his life, and a friend of a Missine Young woman. And during this 90 minutes, you've developed a rapport with who you know to be the brother of the renowned kidnapping victim, Steven Stainer, about which, yes, the movie was made, it captivated the nation. I know my first name is Steven. And he articulated to you then a lack of faith in the criminal justice system, the fact that he was personally and deeply wronged, he felt by the lack of accountability levied toward Steven's captors. And also the other participant in the fatal motorcycle and car accident that Steven was involved with, that killed him at the age of 22. So against this backdrop, he's now in an interview room outside the secure location of the FBI. So we put Kerry in an unsecured room. And then I went into the night desk area, which is in the security area, to find out what we were supposed to do because we had no direction. We had no idea what we were supposed to do. And I'm going to be very honest and tell you that Michael was to get home to my wife and the sooner they could get done with him, the sooner I could take him back and whatever. So while I'm at the night desk, the head of our office, the SAC, he was there and I asked him, you know, what do you want us to do with him? He says, well, I want you to interview him because maybe I should interview him. I don't think that's a good idea. I mean, you know, guys like that. And so he says, but I've got a news conference in your semini. I really should get there. I said, all right, you know, and so he left and we still have no direction what to do. So I'm trying to figure out, you know, this is like a Rubik's cube. How are we going to get out of this, but still get done what we are expected to do? So we had taken Kerry from eating his breakfast. So I had the night clerk order out a pizza for us all to eat since we were probably all hungry. And then the idea hit us that a way of getting him interviewed would be through a polygraph. And Harry Swini is the name of the polygrapher in our office at that time. Unbelievably gifted person. And we determined that if Harry came in and interviewed him, we get the interview and we could get out of there, get done. So that's what we did. We ordered the pizza and we called for Harry. And then John and I went back in with him and we just started interviewing him about his biography, his background. Even when someone asserts the Miranda rights, you're still allowed to get their biographical information so you can identify him for the process. In this case, we were just getting that information because we didn't know what the interview was about. And so John and I were simply going through his background. And then we finished, we had now the time, I mean, we finished and Harry or the pizza weren't there. So then we took him next door to our mug prune room and we took pictures of him and it was kind of like a lot of the pictures you see of, of Carrie were standing. That's us like saying, okay, give us a wind blow and look and give us that look and give us this look. And we took pictures of the bottom of his shoes and you know, just not realizing any of this. And while we were in that room doing this and we were all joking around, the pizza arrives and Harry arrives. And John bulls comes back to me in front of Carrie and he says, look, the pizza is here, the polygrapher is here and he asks, Carrie, what do you want to do first? And he said, let's skip the polygraph. I want to talk to Jeff alone. Now of course, you know, that's not your normal response. But I got to tell you that I've been very fortunate and lucky in my dealings with people because I get a lot of confessions and that's a lot of the way they start out. So when he said that, the guys that I was best friends with, like, hit man, but they start pulling their eyes like here we go again. And what they mean by the here we go again is because I love to learn about people. I believe that a guy who lives on the street knows how to survive on the street where I would not. I think everybody has something to offer. So if you think of Barbara Walters, that's how I do my interviews. You know, I want to know who they are. I want to know if father's or I want to know everything. And so when he said, I want to talk to Jeff alone, everybody kind of looked at each other like here we go again because it's embarrassing to admit, but I think I'm very empathetic. And a lot of times when I hear these stories, I get emotional. I come out crying with them. And I think that if you treat people as people and it's been my experience that the great majority of people that commit crimes like the sexual crimes are themselves victims. So I've learned to start talking to them about their victimization because invariably what happened to them will factor into what they're doing. When Kerry asks to see me alone, we take him back into the first unsecured room and then I go out to find hitman and bowls. What am I supposed to do? He says he wants to see me alone. And it's kind of like half joking because everybody loves making fun of me and it's kind of like, well, going and finding out what he wants, it's like a no brainer. But I think I was so off guard by that. And so I went back in and when I went back in with Kerry, he was sitting hunched over. I remember the room was being dark and he was kind of faced in a corner and I said, what's up? And he says, Jeff, I have done terrible things. I have had times when I feel in world peace and I have had times when I feel that I could kill everyone in the world. And he started going on with these admissions of feelings. I don't want to say he was ashamed of that he was dealing with. And then he said, I've never told anyone before. I was molested by my uncle when I was 12. And I realized that the age that he was searching for was around 12 at 13. Julie and Savina were 14, 15, but it was close. And he started talking about his uncle and molested him and that he had never gotten over it. And I said to him, I want to say to everybody, I said, you know, Kerry, good people do bad things all the time. It doesn't necessarily mean they're a bad person. It means that we've got to figure out what's going on. And that's what I want to do. And he said, yes, you know, he was, yes, we'll do that. And he gave a intimation that he might have had some responsibility with Joey's case. And he said, and more. So I, excuse myself, went back out, found bowls and hit man, they're laughing at me. I'm laughing at myself. I said, you know, he's indicating that he might be good for Joey. I didn't know her name and I use her name now, but I didn't know her name then and I've always been ashamed of that because I didn't. That's how little I knew. And then I said, and he says more. So hit man says, what do you mean more? I said, I don't know. Did you ask him? No, he said, go ask him. What's wrong with you? So I went back into the room and he was sitting there and I said, Kerry, look, I think, I think you're saying something about Joey's case or the naturalist. I said, but you said, and more, what do you mean by more? I was concerned he might have meant his uncle because the uncle, I think that molested him was murdered by a shotgun and Kerry was the last one to see him. So I didn't want to go into his family. But and he said more and I go, what do you mean by more? And then he sort of went like, you know, more. I said, you mean the three women in Cito Lodge and he kind of went, you know, did this big knot. So excuse myself again and I went out and I said, "Hitman, he says that he's good for Joey and he's also saying that he's good for Sun Poloso." That's what we call the "K Sun Poloso." Hitman was the acting supervisor and he immediately had Harry, the polygrapher, remove all of his equipment from the polygrapher room and then he moved Carrie and I up to the polygrapher room so whatever happened between us could be recorded both visually and audio wise. So Carrie and I are sitting up in this room and there's an octagon door and John Bolzes there, Karen, a pizza and he says, "Pizza guy." So he brought the pizza into us and I asked him to stay, I invited him to stay. I mentioned earlier, I don't know what it is, why these guys ask for me, I think I'm empathetic, you are 100% an empath, you are so connective and connecting to everyone you interact with, let alone engage with, I think it's remarkable. What I appreciate and see about it the most is that this remarkable talent of yours has manifested in a way that has changed so many lives for the better if only to get closure. Because going back to this conversation with Carrie where he asks for you and when he admits to you from the beginning of having what can only be construed as nefarious thoughts and you respond in a gentle, non-judgmental manner, I can only imagine the release and relief he might have felt in that moment. And but for your empathy, but for your compassion in that moment, we might never have learned what happened to Joey and Carol and Julie and Sylvana and that again level of closure. And the treasure that that presents to families who have suffered unfathomable losses, to me, you can't qualify that, you are gifted and not only in this conversation, I'm grateful for you sharing these details, but most importantly for this positive impact you've had on countless lives. Thank you. And because you said it's you've been ashamed of it ever since that moment that you didn't know Joey's name, you know the second that we ask for forgiveness, we are forgiven. And I, I just, I know I'm only another human, but I went to absolve you of any feeling of responsibility for a logistical thing that led you not knowing to her name because it's okay you know it now and no one forgets her name thanks to you because of you sharing the story and because of your instrumental again fundamental role that you played in extracting this confession. From someone who behaved monstrously and took the lives of others now Joey's name will never be forgotten and that's that too is a gift. I really appreciate what you're saying. It means a lot to me. Thank you. So tell us then the story that Carrie told you and the confession that you were able to extract from him. So the three of us are sitting here eating pizza and at some point Carrie says this is going to be his last meal as a free man. And I said well you know I don't know about that yet. And then we're eating and it's we're finishing up and getting ready to continue. He tells me that he has three things he wants in order to complete what we're doing. The first one was the child pornography then the second one is that he knew there was I think was a $25,000 reward out for any information that led to the arrest. He wanted that to go to his family and then the third one was he knew there was a new federal prison being built near where his family lived and he wanted to be housed there. And my response to that was that you know we've passed on your first one. But you know if you keep changing it like this they're not going to want to hear from us and we're not going to want to hear from you. So pick that one thing that you want and and that's what will work on. What do you think you picked? I'm pick the pornography. You know I'm curious how our tax dollars would fund an illegal condition of a confession. It's difficult to fathom that that was even considered at a leadership level should a witness request again this is illegal paraphernalia child pornography is illegal. Therefore how is it even to be considered as a condition let alone of one of confession which then raises questions of that that the defense could raise in a subsequent trial as to extraction and some type of like all of those questions that it raises. It was never authorized and he never sold child pornography in exchange for anything and I said to him even though you're coursing us people will see us as course a new with that and that's not going to happen. And so we kind of moved on. So going back carry wrote only up an apology letter for Julie's death and we know that he also killed three other women young women. Why do you believe he only apologized to Julie? This is my personal opinion. I've been judged for it, but I still believe it. I believe when carry stainer confessed it was a six hour confession. And one of the things that I promised him was that I would go down and prepare his family for what was coming. And as I was getting ready to leave the office after this they arrested him they take him into custody and the head of my office says you're not going to tell anybody anything. I said well I'm going to go down there as an FBI agent or going down there as an X FBI agent. But I'm going down there. It's a done deal. You know, and so he gave me 12 hours. So that night I came home to Lori and we set up all night. What am I going to tell these people? And ended up going down first thing in the morning. And I met with Delber who's now passed away and K and they verified my identities that FBI agent was pretty interesting. And then when I got into the house, I'm sitting there talking to him and I said to them, you know, I spent the day with carry yesterday. And we had a wonderful day together. And he's really something. I mean, he's very handsome. He looks like Billy Jack from the movies and we had a really nice day. And now they're starting to realize why I'm there. And they're saying, you know, he didn't kill these women. And I said, well, actually he did. And he told me about it. And he told me in on the detail only the killer would know. And I can only offer to you that you have to remember that in your son carry. He chose me to be his vehicle to stop himself, which is an honor to me. But in your son, the light of good was brighter than the darkness of evil. And he chose me to stop himself from doing what he was doing because he was on his way to kill more. And they just lost it. And I said to him, I'm going to stay here with you as long as you want me until you tell me you're okay. And I stayed here with them for several hours and I had them call their daughters to come be with them. But some interesting things happened. And I got in a lot of trouble with the FBI because I refused to document them. I don't know if you're a mom, but parents always look for responsibility in themselves when something happens with their children. And they were no different. And they're trying to ask themselves, why did this happen? What have they done to cause their son to do this? And I said to them that, you know, there's no explanation for things sometimes. But what I learned, which I didn't document, that dad started confessing to me about molesting his daughters. The dad told me that during the seven years that Stephen was gone, he would sit in a chair with a shotgun in his mouth. And when Carrie would come up to him, he would look at Carrie and say, my son's gone. I don't know who you are. Now, who are we to judge this family or that person? And this family at the same time was a very, very strict Mormon family. And the mom was somewhat, you know, you're such a good interviewer. I feel like I want to share everything with you. One of the things I do when I meet people and I think They're hard or there's I will deliberately try and find that emotional window to see that they're gonna be emotional I want to see them emotion so I know there and I it took me an hour to do this with Carrie's mom And eventually after an hour she started showing some emotion But I learned that she was raised To believe that the demonstrating emotion was the worst thing you could do So this is a family Where everybody grew up without knowing the love that we share with the ones we love or that our parents shared with us and People have judged me because when I've been asked why Carrie did this I Note that he held every one of his victims when he killed them. He felt them died and I know That that's one of the most intimate things in life you can share with someone. It's the whole to mother dying and I believe that Carrie caused his crimes did his crimes seeking emotion seeking a bond an emotional bond and the reason I believe this is Because when we talked about Julie He sobbed. I mean he literally broke out of sobbed and so the question has to be asked why did he cry about Julie and no one else and and then as I talked to him about Julie He shared with me that he loved her and he believed she loved him because she was cooperative and So he believed that Julie was the person in life that he should be with and he was trying to figure out ways to keep to stay with her Keeper he told her that he told her he loved her He told her that there were never any bullets in his gun Which we see people saying when they want to believe that the victims with them out of a choice and not forced by a gun so I believe Carrie Stainer. Yes, he committed some terrible crimes and Crimes that could be indicative of a psychopath, but I'm not a psychiatrist and and I know with psychopaths They never feel emotion, but Carrie did feel emotion. It was just a very selective emotion and When he wrote his letter of apology, he wrote it to Julie and His letter of apology wasn't about Julie. It was about all the things he was gonna miss and he wasn't gonna have You know, I'm gonna miss this. I'm gonna do that It it showed me that he was he was totally focused on himself but I also believe that He was not a person devoid of emotion To your point what perhaps was happening here was someone who was seeking intimacy from and also his his reported molestation from his uncle so clearly this tragic toxic home life that he had grown up in had resulted in him as we're extrapolating here The only type of intimacy that he could derive some form of intimacy When we got done with the interview he was so I Don't want to say hi, but it was like this weight had been lifted and that night I Didn't go with them to log him into the Sac County, main jail, but that night a reporter named Ted Rollins went to jail and He he confessed to Ted Rollins of course He didn't have the degree he did with me, but you know, he got Ted you know got a lot of mileage out of it I would like to share one thing with you and I just doing it now because I don't forget it ever since this happened and I was on the stand My SAC treated me as if I deprived him of his fame and glory and So for three years after Carrie confessed my life was extremely difficult We'll be right back with more of this story You've mentioned that in exacting confessions you request three points of view from the confessor Can you share the events as carry told them? Yes Yes The first thing we did was Julie or Joey and me Joey and So what he started out saying is that He liked looking for Bigfoot and he was up by Ferresta, which is where Joey lived looking for Bigfoot around and as he's doing that he sees this Petit blonde girl with pigtails Loading her truck coming in and out of the cabin Now in the interview you'll hear I say did she look like this picture and the reason I did that is because I wanted to know Is he was focusing on her appearance as a young girl which I believe he was and so you mean the pigtails You felt that the her pigtails in that moment as he described conveyed a Infantilized or youthful version Commensurate with that 12-year-old age that he the new mile age that he was sexually seeking so because she was in older than that obviously exactly yes and so He said that when he sees her He starts watching her and he calls it research you and I would call that stalking now One of the things the FBI management did observe me do this interview treated me Like I was a sex offender because the next thing I asked him is did you have a kit? Now offenders like this serial offenders will put together kits of what they need to commit their crimes And he said yeah, I did have a kit and then he talked about it's 22 revolver in there the rope that we found he mentioned all the things that he put in this kit and My my office my management never treated me normally again after that because I knew we had a kit But the reality is anybody that goes for this training or experiences this work is going to know so nevertheless You know he he went to his truck to get his kit and Then he went up to Joey who was busy loading stuff in or in her truck to go on the trip where she was gonna meet her friends on the central coast And he said he started making you know conversation with her and Part of the conversation was are you alone here? which you and I know what that means and at one point she turns and when her back is to him He pulls out his revolver and he says to her not here to hurt you I'm just desperate for money Desperate for you to cooperate and then I'll leave now. This is very important to understand because he prepared for these crimes and He realized that in order to gain the cooperation of the victim long enough for him to gain control He would have to misrepresent why he was there He would have to take away the fear that he was there to hurt them because if they knew what he was really there for it wouldn't be easy In Joey's case He walked her to the back bedroom of the cabin and then he started Taking control of her Jeff you've provided us with the audio of that confession We're gonna play a portion of it now listeners be warned there's graphic content in this audio And I started talking about the house now I told her I Ain't known different so many years and I've really never seen anybody living in the house I walked up to the front of him just kind of glancing at Conquiting how well it was fixed up. It did some rock work down in front And she stepped up on the porch and was talking to me and she turned around and so I pulled out the gun and put it to her head She turned around and freaked out I told her to go inside To bring her to the back quarter of the house To a bedroom My duct tape You can't You're doing fine This is hard you're being good right go ahead She's just quite a bit I didn't hear or anything I just used threats and be gone to some doer Because I was trying to duct tape her hands in her back she kept fighting me And I finally got her duct tape I got a tractor with a duct tape Before that though I Done seeing that I just needed money Okay Was he going to hurt I just needed to incorporate. I'm not a bright duct tape drink. I'm doing that. Where are our house? I'm going to head everybody on. I'm going to buy a truck. I took the keys out of the truck. I'm going to go back to the hatch of that. I can't really show them I close the door. My truck was parked down by the bridge. I took her down to my truck. I put her in the back seat. And she was fighting all the way. Could she talk? Was she expressing herself? She couldn't talk. She was making noise when she couldn't talk. Also, I should say that they brought a tracker in when she went missing. And the tracker had done these tracks. And he said that he had two sets of footprints walking out to this other truck. And he said it was the Ziff God reached down and lifted one of the people up. And what he was referring to carry lifting Joey up and putting her in the back of his truck. He goes around, gets in his truck, starts it, starts driving out. Doesn't he turn drive out? And when she sees where he's going, she knows that she's in trouble. And his intentions are mortal. And so she starts fighting to get out and to save herself. And in the interview, it was hard for me to understand at first. But she launched herself out the drivers or the passenger side window of the truck. She literally tied up from the back seat, launched herself out the window, the passenger window. Here's another clip of the confession of Kerry Stainer. Listeners again, warning there is graphic content in this audio. I press you to turn around, drive down. Is that's going to drive up to the residential area, back side of the hill, and then around where it was a little more privacy. I didn't duck tape her feet. She started kicking and fighting. He's very strong, very wired girl. Because of the driving, she started going crazy, just jumping all the way to the place in the back of the truck. And I couldn't really control her. And she fell off through the window. I wanted to put on the wheel. On the wheel right in front of the barn. So she fell out of the camper? No, out of my truck. Okay. Out of the passenger window? Did she force herself out those? She tried to get away from you. She did a very good job of it. She was out very quickly. It surprised me. I slept in the truck in the park and jumped out. She'd got a ball from her and started running. This was a bit roadie to her on. She started running for the asphalt road. Like hot or in time before she got there. There was quite a few cabins out. I was looking at a window and sitting on a deck, and the single was going on. I kind of freaked out. I had to have my back pocket. I tried to subdue her, but she was flying very hard. Even being tied up. It surprised me. She was tough. There was an area where we ran with some plane fuel. So I tried to drag her off into the side of the hill. She kept fighting me. What did you do then? I took a night from my back pocket and I slid her to the road. But she didn't tie her away. I took her on the ticker at the time. I took her drug her and her 10-15 beats in her. I thought she was more visible. I finished the job. So you cut her again after the first cut. How many more times did you cut her after the first cut? After I cut her, she was obviously dead. I took her down to the little canal. I took her down to the bus and I left her there. I went up to my truck because it was parking another road. I went into the engine room. I had parked my truck in a parking area and mixed in the asphalt road. I went back down. I just was. It's such disbelief of how hard she fought. I was in trouble for life. I think that's remarkable. Then he went back up to his truck and then he turned it off. Parked. It took the keys. Went back down to where Joy was laying. He says he doesn't know why he did it, but he had it. I said, "Kira, you know, I'm an FBI agent. I'm an FBI agent." I said, "Hey Jeff, we're not going to pay anymore. You still have an FBI agent." I said, "No thanks. I don't want to be an FBI agent. I want to pay because I need that." I said, "Kira, you've got to benefit from taking your head." What was the benefit? I said to him, "You clearly got something." Everybody has an opinion. I believe with him, the absolute control was the apogee of intimacy. When he cut off her head, he took the head to the creek. He bathed her head, he cleaned her face, cleaned her hair, cleaned the blood off her. He made her look lifelike. Then he realized he couldn't keep her. He placed her head further down in the creek and he said he placed it so that it was, if she was laying there in the creek. To me, this is him trying to create an atmosphere of control and intimacy. Then he said he took her rest of her body and stuffed it up into the brush. On an outside point, not related to this, both Joey and Julie, their bodies were posed. They were both posed in sexual positions. That's very meaningful to me. My essay refused to admit that this could be a sexual assault, but for me, that's what it was. Then he said that after he sequestered her body into the brush, he came out. He threw the knife he used all the way and he threw the keys to. I think he said he had the keys. When you talk about the posed nature of their two bodies, but specifically Joey's in this moment, and you said were there signs of sexual gratification posed to Mortem? Or are you saying that the intimacy that he potentially derived at that moment from feeling the death, that that was both emotional and sexual in nature simply for him? When we started off, and we were talking about his background and stuff, one of the things he revealed was that he was not able to gain a direction. And therefore, he was not able to fulfill sexually what he wanted. One of the reasons that he felt he loved Julie is because she was cooperative with him, and he started reacting, and that made him feel like there was a reason. And so, I think with Joey, he just bathed in the intimacy of the moment, and then he left and threw the stuff. And then he interviewed, I asked him if he would take us back there to get that stuff, and he agreed. And he eventually did. I actually have the recording of him doing the walkthrough with us. And so then he said that after that on his way out of the meadow, he had a flat tire, and a park ranger helped him with the flat tire. And so, he was determined to be a suspect because it was the park ranger that remember giving a ride to carry because he had a flat tire. Another thing that I learned that he told me is that I had him on the 24th, which was a Saturday. On the 22nd, which was a Thursday, he was being looked at as the killer. And he was picked up by an FBI agent and a park service agent or ranger, I'm not sure we call him. And they interrogated him for five hours, and he didn't give up the thing. He didn't give up the thing. a thing. And here is two days later with me. So then we completed like Joey and then it came to a decision of all right, they're not going to let you look at child pornography and you've got to decide what you want to do. And I told him I agree with them not showing it to him that committing a crime is not a justification to solve a crime. And that I believe they're doing the right thing. And then I said, you know, you've got to make a choice now. I can see the relief in you. I can see you look better. I know this is helping you. And you have to make a choice whether you want to continue down this path or not. And I said, I'm here to help you get through it. If you want to do it, if you want to stop now, you know, I'm going to keep my word. But it's up to you. And I said, I promised you I would prepare your family. And the longer you take making this decision, the later I'm going to be getting down to your family. So you need to choose what you want. He took about 30 seconds or a minute just sat there quietly and then he looked up and he said, okay, let's do it. And that meant he was going to confess to son Pelosi. We started talking more about his preparations than what he was doing. And so he talked about that he had always had these these problems that he, you know, that after he had been assaulted, you know, he was looking for girls. And so this is one of the ways we started talking about it. He said that he had prepared for over a year the commit is crime, which makes him somewhat unique because sex offenders like Carrie Stainer, in my opinion, they all have sexual fantasies. And they're all at some point, they make a choice that they're going to make their fantasy real. Some guys know that the fantasies are legal and it would never be okay. Other guys decide that the draw that whatever it is is too strong and they're going to do it. Carrie Stainer made that commitment to carry out his crime. And in that regard, you started watching the police shows. And like for instance, he knew about the NA. He created that DNA for us defined on that letter. He knew about trace evidence. For two weeks after he killed Sonpolis evidence to recover from him, he watched the news. And my way of dealing with these things, you know, things are really like I the more to RSAM, the more humor I have. So I asked him when he was thinking when he was watching the news about the FBI, he said he couldn't believe what he's seeing. In fact, he knew it was okay to return to the Cedar Lodge because of the news because he was watching on the news and he knew they wasn't being looked at. So then Carrie's describing to me how he is committed to carrying out a sexual fantasy. And so first we have to talk about what's your sexual fantasy. And his sexual fantasy was to have two girls like 12 or 13 years of age and he knew that they would have a guardian. So his fantasy was to kill the guardian, have sexual relationships with the girls, and then he would kill the girls. So what's important to me is that his sexual fantasy always ended in death. There was no life that was going to happen after this. He also talked about he had a girlfriend who had two daughters that were around this age. And I immediately started thinking that maybe he's been grooming them, maybe those were. And he said that so when we started, when he starts off at the confession, he starts off by saying that on Sunday the 14th, he was at his girlfriend's house with her two daughters as well. And that that was his intended time to carry out his fantasy. But there was a guy there on the grounds who was coming in and bugging him and he couldn't he couldn't do it. So then he said that eventually he left and he went back to the Cedar Lodge. But that he was really fired up. You know, he had prepared himself. So he had all those nerves going like I'm going to do this. And when he got back, he was so fired up that he went and got the keys, the master keys to the Cedar Lodge. And he went into the jacuzzi. He was going to take a jacuzzi. But the jacuzzi had not been maintained. And so he couldn't use that. And so he served the jacuzzi. I forget whether he served the pool or not. And then he took a walk in the parking lot. Now he knew there was another room that had several girls in the room. And he ruled them out because they had a guy with them. What he didn't know was that the guy had left. And those girls were available. But luckily he didn't do that. And then he started walking out the parking lot. So it's cold, it's misty. And when he gets to the 500 building, he sees in the window. He sees Carol, Julie, and Sylvina. Once more I went to warn listeners. This content is graphic. We'll be going to the back pack. First I stopped off the office and picked like I turned the keys back in. I didn't. Turned out I didn't even know it. They let me in the room. They knocked on the door. It said I was maintenance. They let me in. They went to the bathroom and checked the fan. Or I told them to leave the problem with me. When I came out of the bathroom, I told them I wasn't running the keys in the car. The two girls are on the bed closest to the front door. They don't turn around. Mother, you got to get the money I have in person for the back of the bed. Not get it. So we all got the beds and put their hands in the back so I tied them all up. I like the two girls to the bathroom. So I brought them down the bathroom for a nice triangle of a mudder. Perfect. A piece of rope. I put her in the truck at the car. I went back into the room and took both the girls into it. I found a balcony back into the main room. I stripped her clothes off of them. Cut her clothes off of them. The plus of girl couldn't be for you to English. It's crying a lot. And Julie was very calm. I had all sex and Julie performed at honor. She replied well now. I got me her performed on me. And the plus of girl is unwilling to participate. And she was also on her monthly cycle. So to turn off. I took her to the bathroom, put her in the bathtub. I strangled her. I went back into the main room and continued with Julie. So she was fully assaulting her. She was very cooperative. She did everything I told her to do. No tears or nothing. I didn't fear or torture her. She was set sex. So in that case, she wanted to go to the bathroom. I could take her to the bathroom with her friend dead in the tub. So I took her next door and went home 5-10. I made her shave herself. So it was very cooperative. She didn't fight me. I was just in awe. At all she was doing that. No way. We removed the body from the shower. Pretty drunk. getting pretty late. Probably five o'clock or so in the morning. I told Julia, "Where did it get someplace to go?" And I went armor. I put her in the car, her hands were tucked in front of her. Then wrapped in pink blanket around her. And this drove. I didn't know where I was coming. I didn't know what I was gonna do. So I think what he portrays a sexual relation is not only wishful thinking, but the reality that in his mind he convinced himself that Julia was cooperating with him because she liked him. And he said, while he's doing this, he hears this noise coming from the bathroom, this breathing noise. I'm like, what do you mean? He goes, "Well, you know, I went into the bathroom and Silvino was there making noises." Now, this is the closest we got to adversarial because he said, Silvino was dead, but she was going through after death, gyrations. And I'm like, "Keri, is she breathing?" Yes. So if she's breathing, she's alive. Well, okay. And finally, he admitted that if she's breathing, she's alive. The thing that I don't normally share that wakes me up at night even now, I believe she was conscious when he came in. And I believe that he comes in with a piece of duct tape without any emotion or compassion or anything and he puts the duct tape over her nose and she stops breathing. And so that's what he wanted. And then he leaves the room with the two that in the back, and we're drilling the driver's seat or passenger seat. He drives by the front office and drops off the master keys. And then he drives out and he proceeds to California 49 to head north. He's telling her how much he loves her. He wants to keep her, but at the same time, he's got it in his head that he needs to get rid of the car. He needs to get rid of the bodies and he's got to do something about Julie. Even though he wants her, he knows, he's got this desire and then he has the logic going. He scopes out a couple places on the way up 49 and doesn't find anything that really fits what he needs. He eventually goes up to Don Pedro and at Don Pedro, there's a parking area and he parks in the parking area and he walks her back into a spot in the brush there where he took her. And I said, you know, she's naked. How did she get back there? She goes like, "Carrier." Well, how'd you carry her? You know, like a husband carries a bride over the threshold. So he takes her back there. He spreads out the blanket. He's on the blanket with her. He's, you know, the best I could describe is trying to be romantic, speak romantically, but telling her that he can't do it. He realizes that the sun is coming up and then he needs to do something and he realizes he needs to take her life. So what he does is he sets her up on the blanket so she's on her knees and then he comes up from behind her and he cuts her throat. But just like with Joey, it was ineffective. It didn't do anything except cause a lot of pain for her and in those moments, he held her hand to her head, telling him to shoot her because she was in so much pain. And then he starts sobbing and crying because he says there were never any bullets in the gun. He wants to believe she's with them because of a choice. But he says he can't shoot her cause he doesn't have any bullets in the gun. So what he did was he went up again and just like with Joey, he cut her again. And this time he waited for her to lose consciousness and pass and then he took her down the hell and covered her up. And then he said he left there and as he was leaving, he's throwing stuff away. Get it rid of evidence. He gets the car back onto Route 49. He's heading north to this Sonora area, Miwaq where he ends up dumping the car. And he says, he almost says laughingly. At one point, he's sitting in an intersection next to some CHP officers and they don't realize who he is or what he has. I didn't think it was very funny or amusing. Then he gets her up to Route 108, which then heads east. And then he finds a spot where he leaves the car. He had $200 that he had taken from Carol. And he walks out from the car and he catches a cab that takes him back to the Yosemite lodge, which is like the Cedar lodge just further down the road. And then he eventually gets home. And he said he's exhausted. He's got a sleeves like. And then when he wakes up, he takes his car with one or two gallons of gasoline and he drives back up to where he had left the rental car and he douses it with gasoline. He leaves the bird passenger door open to act as a funnel, give the fire room the breathe and then he lights it up. And then he says he's really scared because as the car started burning, the horn went off. And he thought that was gonna draw attention. It didn't. And so he said that once he was sure the car had burned. He got back in his car and he drove back down to Modesto where Carol's wallet was initially found. And he says that he goes home and nothing's happening. He's watching the news. Julie's not being found. She's laying out there in the wilderness and it's bothering him. So he decides he wants her to get recovered. So he does this map, he draws this map. He goes and he buys the paper, he buys the envelopes, he buys cotton gloves, buys cups. And he grabs a Hispanic kid outside of a fast food place and says, look, I need your spit because I got a paternity test and I don't want him to know it's me. So will you mind sealing this envelope? Will you spit into this cup? And then he used the saliva from the cup to seal the envelope. And that's why there were so much envelope or so much DNA on the envelope. And then he said from there on, he just, you know, he waited and the FBI never came around. - Can you tidally sum up the fact that Joey's mom didn't want the death penalty. So federally it was not sought. However, it was levied by judge Hastings, if I remember correctly, it was Hastings. - After the confession, I had to go back in the office immediately and at that time the FBI, if you had a transcript, I had to listen to the tape with the transcript and make sure it was right. During all this time, there was a, an issue developing between Mariposa County and the federal government. The federal government wanted the prosecutor first because they could get the death penalty. And Mariposa County wanted the prosecutor because they could get the death penalty. And there was a lot of people looking to attach themselves to a lot of this stuff. What eventually happened was that the Fed, Janet Reno was the attorney general and she decided that the Fed's would have the first opportunity and Joey Armstrong's mother Leslie did not believe in the death penalty. So federally he was permitted to plead out to life without parole. And that's where in his allocation, he mentioned a lot of the elements of the apology letter he had written. And then after they were done, then Mariposa County came and got them and then they prosecuted him and successfully got the death penalty for him. - And you mentioned earlier that this was the same judge as Polly Klaus, who, these murders occurred, these you, somebody murders as they're known, occurred between February and July 1999. Polly Klaus was abducted in 1993, 12 year old girl abducted from her bedroom and kidnapped and murdered by a recidivist sex offender who was also a sexual sadist, who three years later was sentenced to death and incarcerated at San Quentin. So when you described the judge and his emotional reaction during levying this punishment, in part, it is because a mere, a few years prior, he had experienced in his courtroom, a similar individual who had, you either call them a monster. or you say they've engaged in a monstrosity of behavior. Yes. But as you have had so much exposure to these terrible cases, the same judge as well with similar victims, these young girls. I'm just listening to what is so compelling as such a deeply honest story and a deeply honest and personal experience. I'm grateful to you for that. It just strikes me as such a powerful, beautiful moment to have witnessed, where you were the son around which the constellation of these families who were all irreparably broken from this person's behavior were sharing to you their gratitude. And I believe that this should be an uplifting, reassuring moment for you, because what you are dealing with, your subject matter, the threats of suicide, the murders on a daily basis that you encounter, there's a semblance of normalization that has occurred in the agency and given your role with it. And the sensitivity with which you appreciate it all and the rock that you served for these people who were treated with dignity when they didn't even see themselves with enough dignity to want to keep on living. That's so commendable. And even though it was sort of sparked by a negative origin that you were there, I think you were there to serve a higher purpose because everyone around you was grateful and better for it. After I retired, I couldn't get out of bed for six months. As soon as I got out of bed, I started throwing up. And so it took six months for that to pass. And then Lori said, you need to write your sons. The book that's out there, that's what I wrote my sons. And I think it helped. But I realized from all of this that my family had sacrificed for me. And that I've determined that I want to spend the rest of my life earning what they've done. It's been strange because we have grandchildren now, and they're around the same age as some of these kids where they're victims. And just a couple months ago, my grandson, his name is Owen, was running around the house. And he had duct tape all over his shoes. And then I realized it was Batman under his shoes. And that's what Michael Lyons was wearing. And so all these years, since 1996, my wife has made sure to cover any Batman thing because of what it did to me. I'm better now. It doesn't bother me as much. But the thought that I was like that, I just can't believe what it would've been like for my family. And I just can't stop. And Lori, when she asked me to make it a book, she said, you know, this could help people. People could help because you're talking about things that people don't talk about. So we did. And then about two years ago, you know, that message, your thing on Facebook, I don't know that much about it. I realized I had a message from a police officer who was left his department. And he was literally in the process of killing himself. And he contacted me. And I called his department and I said, I don't know what to do. I mean, this guy is-- he was literally cleaning so that he wouldn't leave a mess for his family to clean up. And his department said, call him. He goes, we don't know what else to tell you. And I called him and I said, you know, I'll be in your life for the rest of your life, but you got to keep living. And if I can keep living, you can keep living. And he went for inpatient care. And he's doing really well now. I call it glory to say hello a couple of times. You and Lori are clearly North stars to many people and deserve Lisa. Please rate and review this podcast on Apple podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen. Listen, add free with a Fox News podcast plus subscription on Apple podcasts. And Amazon Prime members can listen to the show, add free on the Amazon Music app. [MUSIC PLAYING] [BLANK_AUDIO]