The Worst Scenario Possible - What Does the Social Worker Do? Ep. 24

[Music] Welcome to the Social Histories podcast. My name is Liz Murphy and good afternoon to you, Dr. Mian Fox. Hello Liz, how you doing? I'm doing really well. You know since we've last seen each other, so it's about two weeks now. Yeah. I've been working with the social workers at the hospital I work at. Training them for on-call. Oh, exciting. Okay. And why it's really exciting is that this next episode is absolutely perfect for an on-call social worker. You're going to be on-call, Bradadine? Oh, I am so good to say, essential listening. That's right. This one, it's a very powerful episode, Mim, as you know. And it's about a social worker who's on-call and gets called in to work with a family whose four-year-old suddenly dies. That's right. So it reminds me of our very first episode. Yeah. If you can remember that way. With that, we're a social worker who's working with a family whose child dies from drowning. That's right, I do remember it. And lots of listeners have commented on that episode. Have they? They have. So it's one of the ones that people do remember. And I have to admit, when I was listening to the interview, I was actually hanging out the clothes yesterday. I'm listening to this interview and I started crying. So I want to warn everyone, it's a powerful, very powerful interview that is very moving. But if you're wanting to hear a social worker walk through their practice around a sudden death of a child, it's worth hanging in there for. But of course, you've got to look after yourself in the process. Yeah, that's right. Please do that. And I also want to reassure people when they're listening, everything's being de-identified. So even though the child is named, even though some of the family are talked about, it's all being de-identified and changed around a little bit to protect the families privacy. I'm glad that you've mentioned that actually, Liz, because we've had a couple of people ask us the process that we go through with the stories, the social workers tell us. And it is important that people know that we're thinking about the people who these stories belong to as well as our social workers who have worked with them. Yeah. So thanks for including that. So I guess maybe before we play it, let's highlight a few things for people to listen to. Yeah. So, I'm thinking now of my social workers who are about to go on call, who have never worked with a family whose child has died suddenly. Yeah. Listen to how she deals with the anxiety. Listen to how she works with the team of nurses and doctors. Listen to how she partners with the family around working with them and supporting them. Listen to how she works with the children of the family. Listen to how she works in that death space. The detail that she goes to to help the family to leave that child behind. And finally listen to how she looks after herself in the process, because she's also a social worker who's a mother, and she had to make quite a distinct statement to herself so that she could purely focus on the family. Yeah. It's almost a how to. Oh, for social workers. This will be a essential listening to the social workers I'm working with. Yeah. That's a good checklist if you've just given everyone that's good. Let's do it. Let's do it. Yeah. So, it was a Saturday. My usual day. I received a page from the num, giving me a heads up. We have a four-year-old girl coming in. She was found unconscious. Started CPR at home, still doing CPR. So I thought, okay. Like I said, it was started to get a bit of a panic. I don't know what to do. I think before that I don't think I've ever had a child coming in with that sort of concerns. So I started to panic. I looked through our policies about what to do. What do I say? You know, four-year-old child found unconscious, CPR, commenced at home, just things that were in my head. Looking through the. I mean, with the polls, they only tell you so much. So I started to just leave it. It's all right. I'll go with whatever happens. So I went to resus. They would already tell. The curtains were closed, but there were lots of people outside trying to get in. I saw the num. She saw me. We had each other. So she was able to give me a brief handover. It was a girl. Four-year-old girl, Maya, found unconscious. She was previously in emergency with mum with respiratory. She's the thing she had a history of asthma. So I went in and mum and her sister, so Maya's aunt, were pointed to me looking over the nurses and the doctors, shoulders, trying to get a view of Maya. So the doctors who were there were the ED consultants, some registrars, ED registrars. The nurses, one nurse was doing CPR and then the scribe. So lots of people and I think the PEDS consultant hadn't arrived, but I think there was a PEDS registrar. So I introduced myself with to mum and the aunt. And as you can imagine, they weren't really keen. I think they were just really heavily concentrating on what's happening with our baby. So I stood with them and doctors here are really experienced and really good about every couple of minutes or so. They would step back and tell mum what was happening. You know, we're just doing CPR. We do have to stop every few seconds to get a heart rate, to see if we can get a heart rate. And then other things like, you know, we're doing some blood tests, getting some blood out, etc. So a few times that was happening with they'd stop CPR, see if they could get a heart rate. I was experiencing something that was, you know, I was a new mum. So it really did relate to it. So from another level, it was, I had to really kind of go, "Okay, it's not personal. You know, you're here for mum, you're here for her sister, her support." So just in my head, just going, "Look, it's okay. You know, you have to look at it from their point of view and lead the person also." So every time they stopped and to check for pulse, everyone had to, you know, almost stopping themselves breathing because it was, please, the fine heart rate, fine heart rate, fine heart rate. So after, and they would always ask for the time, so after, before an hour had, they were coming to that hour, the doctor had both the peeds, doctor and ediconsultants had spoken to mum. And I guess warning them, "Look, we are getting to this time." You can see that myus is not responding, we're not getting a heart rate. So they did, there was, I guess, a warning for one of a better term. This is what's going to happen and then after, I think it was even more than an hour from memory, the consultant had actually said, "All right, set back. It's time." And you can see the consultant, consulting the peeds, consulting everyone. I think it's time. And that was always the biggest, my, my worry has a social work, how do I then support their reactions and their grief? You know, what do I do? What do I say? So it initially was really a team, I think, where we set mum and her down. And obviously mum not wanting to hear that we were going to stop CPR. The doctors had said, "Look, we're not, you know, this is longer than we would give anyone." The CPR, we can't, we don't want to, I guess, the CPR physical is quite painful, especially for a child, there's always a risk of doing more physical damage. But then relaying that to a family, to a mum was just heartbreaking, you know, for them. And I guess for me, then how do you pick up? So they've said that and they almost look up at you and go, this is her social worker. So again, I reintroduced myself but it was really look if you'd like to be with Maya, cradle her. We had to. there was a just a time before we did that where we had to explain to. I was really fantastic in terms of being a support to Mum. She was holding it, keeping it together because she can see that the doctors are trying to explain to Mum and so she was the ears for Mum in terms of listening after the doctors had explained to Mum, look we've had to stop. This is the next step. Very briefly said, look it's a coroner's, we would like to know what's happened, we want an explanation. That's why we've had to keep the breathing tube for Maya. So explaining that to. even that art, we kind of turned to her physically just so we could. we would know that she understood and that you know we didn't want to place Maya in more physical trauma. So we do want any. I guess the reaction of pulling it out, take it off, take things off. So we really had to explain to. I guess that this is why we've kept her. We can wrap her nicely if you have a blanket which you did. You know we can cradle her, you can cradle her, we can wrap her up in that. And so really just being there for Mum and her art in that initial response of no, this can't be. You know the shock of no no no, she can't be, she can't be dead and you know you've got to continue. And hearing that, we're hearing a parents say she can't be dead, it's so surreal. It was a large family, all obviously in shock, but they were wanted to like the art was so strong and I just from a practical point of view I think she was just she took on board everything and for me it was okay I'm gonna make sure I don't we don't overload her, make her feel overwhelmed like it's all when her shoulders so it was touching based with her off and going are you okay? I know you're staying strong for your sister, do you need a break? You know would you like to step out? I can speak to other family members. No it's okay you know gotta be there and I remember there were other young children, not young, not probably school age children, so having to kind of touch base with them as well, explaining to adults you know we are here on introducing myself, explaining our role and allowing them to be with Maya. So you can imagine we have a a bay with curtains and Maya families in and out what we did was resource one is a room right next door after we mum was with Maya we actually offered we have this room, do you mind could we move Maya into the room that way you guys we can close the door they will be one of us going in and out just to be available nurses in recess and doctors are very good in terms of we know that there's been a death we're being respectful so what they often do is they close for the other curtains they close the doors that in entrance and exits from the acute beds so there is I guess we're trying to minimise traffic people traffic and you know the peering what's going on I think if it weren't four detectives of the police wanting to see the house they probably could have been here longer as you can imagine it's a difficult you know when do you say goodbye when is that final goodbye when does it take place and how do you tell them I'm sorry I think we may have to you may have to leave we'll have to take Maya down it like yeah if it weren't for the police who were he needed to to go and see the home because she was found unconscious at home they may have been here and it can be so busy and the nature of the basis they just continue there's no stop but doctors know they're fantastic in terms of especially a child they know the families do take time and they're going to need the time in the space so they're not at all there's no pressure or urgency to get the family out we need the bed we need the bed yeah during that time dad had actually sorry so before we transferred Maya into recess one dad had arrived this I think this will this is an image that doesn't leave me is so family it had been a while since we we called I think mom had called someone had called dad and so he was actually at work and he wasn't close by there took a while for him as you can imagine him arriving seeing his life in tears you know with Maya and her arm see just couldn't believe it so it was I remember him taking off his shirt and just go no no no take my life and you know just being really physically holding her not accepting I guess the news so I remember one of the male nurses had to physically look we don't want to drama the size her physically even more you can cradle her yes you can hold her yes let's not shake her let's ask weezer too hard and it was devastating to see that you know a growing big man holding on wanting her his child sorry to to come back detectives all the police had said all we do we have to go we have to leave we have to see we have to speak to you at home and then the family is turning to you and going she's gonna be cold she's gonna be alone in cold now we'll be with her we'll look after her one of our colleagues that was her thing was that we will cast your father but for me it was we'll be with Maya we'll cast her we'll make sure we're someone's she won't be left alone and she wasn't remember when the family had left you know even talking to her okay with Maya we're just gonna do this with you we're just gonna clean you up rack you in this blanket that mom's left the nurses being really gentle with her as well and then someone walking with her with the the wartsman and because I think what they do is from the from the hospital they've we have the the police the coroner's so she wasn't she was never left alone that and that was important to to be able to say that and follow that through so that was the case in this one in other cases I've had the detect all the police arriving and then having to go they're good in a way they don't force themselves on anything well here we need to talk to the family we need to talk to I'll put if I get a chance I'll kind of take them aside say can we just give them a few more minutes they know that you're here they know you have to ask and often what they'll do yeah that's fine and they'll talk to the doctors they'll ask they'll get to their medical information and then I'll slowly just say to the family the police have arrived but they're going to be talking to the doctors and the nurses when you're ready we'll probably need some time we can do it here they can come and speak to you we can do it away and maybe have other family members come and be with my are if you prefer so negotiating with them how they would prefer to talk to police you know around what's happened yeah so really the relationship you know often we don't know the police who are coming here so making sure again being able to step back I think it's important to give them a head someone to look this you know there's a four-year-old child can we give them just a few more minutes before you getting to I know has to be done It's unavoidable and generally they're good. And being available while the police are talking to them, making sure that if there are questions that they maybe don't know, that I can answer, whether that's maybe I've had a case where the doctors had explained to them, this is what's happened and maybe they're not, you know, you forget these things, you get overwhelmed with information and then you're having to juggle your grief. And so that's why I think it's a social work, it's important that you're there, at least from the beginning. So when doctors are relating information, information in jargons that you're listening out. Just so when you've done, when families or police do have questions, you can then, you're able to relay it without having, you know, to pressure families and add more stress to them. Dad was, you know, holding, propping up mom, walking and others, just even with, there was, I think the grandma, external family, you know, physically helping her, a U.K. do you need a chair, you know, and making sure that the children were able to, to say goodbye if they wanted to and not force that on them, you know, speaking to them about, look, this is what my, looks like, this is why she has the, tube down her throat, don't feel that you have to go in there to say you're goodbyes and working with families about what's this, what's your child, you know, do you think they'll be able to cope with this? Do you think, you know, and I guess working out with families, some families are really protective and death is a taboo still with this family, they were very open. Children have these children, older children, but, you know, children have experienced death before, not necessarily with children. So working out with families with those appropriate for the young children to, to say they're goodbyes or to see Maya was another role that we had to, I had to navigate through. But they wanted, were photos. So we were, I said, look, for me, social media can be a powerful tool, but you can also be something quite negative. So I, of course, that, if you'd like that, as a memory of her, please do so. Maybe don't post it on social media, if you're wanting to send it to families. That's your right, but again, we don't want a photo of something that can be quite traumatic out there. And then one or two of them were taking a video. I think they had families overseas and again, it was, yeah, for, you know, their eyes only. And, you know, obviously respecting Maya's privacy, even though she's a child, and, you know, we want to give her that respect and that dignity to, to make sure that her face isn't everywhere that shouldn't be. And they were very good. They were, the families were like, no, this is for us. This is, you know, I think they always wanted to make a book or something, but, yeah, so they didn't want the memory, the hand prints, because I know that's something that we offer, the hand of footprints. They wanted to leave the blanket. I've had cases where they wanted to take a, cut a piece of hair, or they wanted to leave a, like a bracelet with, like, it looked like a rosary beads tight. So, I said, yes, but you'll probably get those in return when they come from coronas, because we don't, you know, don't keep those things, but, yeah. So, around those things, that's something that I wasn't able to speak to mum directly about what her wishes were. She just wanted to be with me, and I didn't want to interrupt her time with her, so, working with families around what do you think my would like, for Maya? You know, were the pictures that maybe she drew, that you'd like to leave with her? So, I remember asking the family, extended families, about Maya. So, when they were telling me their stories about Maya, it was, oh, that was an opportunity for me to ask, would you like those things to be left with Maya? That's something you could, you'd like to consider. So, yeah. I'm still carrying. Not because, I mean, it was traumatic, but I think, you know, a child, like I said, I'm a mum myself, and I always reflect about, was there anything that I could have done to make the family's experience easier, or at least minimise the trauma being in ED, being the physical nature of ED? So, it was huge, and I think I'll always carry it with me. I think just because it was my first experience, and to be confronted with questions like, you know, she's going to be left alone in the cold, you know, that aren't, you know, I can still hear that question, and, yeah. And looking after myself, it's an ongoing process, because admittedly, I probably don't do it the best I should, or I could, you know, with, I've started in the last couple of years, journaling, and I think that's been, whether it's one word, you know, things that are alright, or page, being out, I think, socialising, just with friends, it's been a huge thing for me to be able to leave hospital, the work, and switching off, and having a life outside of work. It's been huge, whether it's, you know, catching up with friends, or just walks, clearing my mind, I love to fresh air, so being able to, other, having just a leisurely walk, you know, or taking the kids out to the park, and letting the fresh air, that's always helpful for me. Wow Liz, I can really understand why you had that moment hanging out the washing, listening to this interview, with tears in the wind. So the crying started after I felt the anxiety, so I'll run through my emotions, but I'm listening to this, I go, oh yes, you only get that call, and if you've never done that particular case before, so this woman's gone, picked up the call, a child who's having CPR coming in, so she's gone to her, so I'm feeling anxious then, but I started. You think you're feeling that your anxiety is paralleling her anxiety? Totally feeling within yourself. Well, for me, it's about two things. So it's rare that you get these kind of call outs, because thankfully in Australia, certain deaths like this are very, very rare. That's true. And so you and I were talking about how privileged we are to be living in a country where a death like this is quite unusual. Yes, in the big cities. Yes, absolutely. And in areas of our cities. Yes, and so this was done in a big city. Yes. And there would have been all of the medical intervention possible for this child. That's true. And so it was with that that we were saying, gosh, you know, it is, you know, from a very privileged position, but it makes it unusual, therefore it makes it. It makes it very anxiety-provoking for the social worker. Oh, yeah. Because the other thing it does, Mim, is that it defies human nature, you know? Yeah. Our babies and our children, it feels primarily wrong that a child dies before their parent or their grandparents. Yes, that's very true. So there's that underlying. But the part that just broke my heart was when she told the story of the father coming in. Yeah. And his reaction. That's when I'm relieved that my neighbour was not in his garden as I'm hanging up the clothes because I'm weeping quite noticeably weeping. Yeah. Do you think that this social worker. I'm conscious that this is a bit of a turning point story for this social worker. What do you mean? Like, it's obviously stayed with her. The social worker who's provided the story is not a new graduate. She's been working for a long time. And this is the story that she's chosen to share, right? I guess I'm thinking about how, whether this might have been the first. It was a case of a kind that she's dealt with. Yeah, because I think when it's your first child going through CPR, that's actually quite a different experience as again, isn't it? Your first sudden death of a child. Yeah. It does have a larger meaning for you. And I noticed that there were some similar things happened in this story as what they did in our first. So the social worker is supporting the family and that's a really weird space to be in when you're standing with the family. The child is being worked on or it could be an adult. It's a weird space for a social worker because there's nothing much you can do apart from being in the space with them. And then remember how we reflected in the first episode about it. It's then, sadly, that Mia, little Mia dies and the baton is then passed on from the doctors to the nurses to the social worker. And that's when she had to take over that space. It's almost part B of the intervention. Part A is the sitting with the family and bearing witness. Bearing witness to what they're experiencing and being with them in this acute time of grief, right? Yes. So what I found really interesting was, yeah, she teamed up with the doctors and the nurses and the doctors were providing information when they needed to and the nurse was beautifully kind of cleaning up the space, probably cleaning up Mia. But there was that interesting partnership that she made with the auntie. And I think that was very sophisticated social work and I would say to any social workers just learning their footing in this space, do that. Yeah. Find who that person is. Who used to call it when I was working in ED, who's the person to give the bereavement pack to? Because it's not necessarily the next of kin because, as you know, that mother was just bereft. Yes. And I think you're taking any time. It's the notion of the support person, isn't it? So that person who is going to be able to support the acutely grieving people in the situation. But I think the social worker can sometimes fall into different roles when it comes to working with a support person. Sometimes they can be mistakenly ignoring them. Sometimes they can go too far and end up working primarily with the support person as opposed to the family themselves. For a point. There is a delicate balance, I think, of working in partnership, like you said, with the support person. I definitely think this social worker gave us a really good step by step example of how to do that because she was using the aunties as conduit, right? Yes. So she, and also checking in on how that auntie was going. So very much walking in. There's actually a double role there, isn't there? Double role. Yeah. The other thing I really liked about what our social worker was doing was that death work. Did you notice how she treated me as if she's still alive? Even though this is a coronal case now. Little Mayor would have had tubes hanging out of her that cannot be removed. That's right. And in fact, you cannot do a whole lot of moving and holding because the police were wanting to do an investigation right. So you have to be kind of, it's a sensitive dance between supporting the family to still touch and hold. But knowing that, there's a limit to it being. She did that beautifully. She used me as name. So it's actually sitting in that legislative space, isn't it, with the coroner and the requirements that the coroner has. But with heart balancing that with the being present for the family, empowering them to still fare well and spend that final time with the little one. And so examples of that was when Mayor's body had to be moved into another room. The sensitivity around saying this is what we're needing to do to give you space, wrapping her in the blanket, then having to advocate with the police around giving extra time, spending time with the children. I'm assuming they were siblings, making sure that they were part of this process. That's right, actually making sure it was a collective effort what was happening. And the other thing that really, I like, I really love rituals, you know me. And so I love contemporary contextualised rituals. So one of the things that they talk about, which is very common in ED is, if there is a death and they're having to move a body out of ED into, in this case, into a private room, nurses and doctors will draw the curtains around the other patients as a sign of respect for both the patients, but also for the family and it all mea. And I really loved how that was done and there would have been a quietness that would have settled over the ED as well. And the way in which her colleagues in the hospital respected her time. So when she was page twice and mentioned, this is what I'm currently doing, those referers, so doctors and nurses, whoever backed off because it is important work. And that to me says that social workers come a long way, a long way. Absolutely, in that emergency department, there's obviously been quite a long history of social work working with deaf and dying acute grief in that space. So there are cultures and traditions that have been brought up and have been created in that space to allow social work practice to occur, actually. Yeah, and I would say that it's been a hard fought battle. Yeah, I would say so too. To carve that one out. And social workers previously would have had very different experiences, but for mea and her family, they benefited from the work of social workers. One of the things I wanted to mention was how the social worker had to facilitate the eventual goodbye at that moment for the family toward mea. And that can be a hard point. Not always, often people, you know, you can have anything from a quick, you know, viewing to a family being quite, you know, they're staying for the long haul. But being that it was a coroner's case, being that they were police at the door, being that it was in an emergency department, there was not the luxury of that time. And I liked the way that the social worker facilitated that gently. And I am always interested in how social workers negotiate that space. So what do you think if you think about the stages she would have gone through, the social worker in negotiating that time and space? Do you think that she would have been going back and forth between the family, the doctors, the nurses, reiterating the family's needs? Do you think that's the primary? I absolutely do. And I think on the flip side she would have also been saying to the family, explaining why the police were there, explaining why the police would need to be talking with them, explaining why the police would need to be going home with them, that it was part of a coronal process, but carving out time for both parties. So it's a fine balance and she did it very well. I listened to a social worker the other day and our training, our forensic social worker. And she was saying that one of the things that she has done, you know, when it is difficult for a family to leave their child, their baby behind, that she will double close the baby and that the family can take the top layer off and the blanket and take that home. That was just a little recipe. That is gorgeous. So social workers develop these recipes in their practice. This social worker talked about those powerful statements, "Meier will not be left alone." We will look after her. She will never be alone. And she won't be here either. I mean the reality is there's a lot of things that will be taking place. She will never be alone in that coronal process. And then there will be also the opportunity for the family to spend more time with me at the funeral home. And at the coroners office. And she would have been saying that too. You know Liz, I think for a lot of people who don't really know a lot about social worker practice who might be listening to our podcast. If they think about an emergency department, often they're thinking about all that noise that happens and lots of doctors and nurses running around. They look at thinking about the scenes they've seen in TV shows and things like that, right? They never show these scenes on the TV show otherwise. They never do. They never do. So I think what this, and then the next question that people often ask is, "But what does a social worker do there?" Like people have come to that emergency department because there's something wrong with their body. They would need a doctor or a nurse. What on earth would a social worker do? And what I love about this story and the way that you've just step that through and explained it is that this is the important work that social workers do. There is nobody else whose job it is to go back and forth between the different parties in the emergency department and give these messages that actually support and empower the family that are the reason, around the reason that has brought them there. The fact that there is a medical condition or situation that has brought someone to the emergency department, in this case it's the death of this child, is a very small piece of what is the work that the social worker gets involved with. You know what I mean? Absolutely. The other thing I just wanted to highlight was how. So the social worker talks about the fact she's a mum. Yeah, that's right. And she goes to her mother side initially. Remember she gets a call and that's right. She has a mum self that actually has a response. So I reflected on that and I thought she makes that statement to herself about you need to be professional self and you need to focus on this family. But the reality is mum and social work self would have been present for that family. And I would have no doubt in my mind and heart that she would have used both her social work, knowledge and skills, but also the heart of the mother would have come through there too. That would have been part of her practice. It wouldn't have just been, "I, alright, I'm just putting on my professional badge now and leaving mother behind." But I think that's the great fiction of professionalism is that you have two very separate hats. One you as the person and one you as the professional. And that you actually just replace one for the other and they are wholeheartedly replaced. They have no remnants of each other left behind. I think that's an absolute fiction list. Yeah, that actually. It's actually. It's actually two user expression that you've taught me. It's so binary. It's so binary. It is. And that's right. Like these two senses of self actually intertwine and connect much more than we ever in our Western notions of professionalism like to actually admit. And she was so in that space. Wasn't she? Because that's where this sounds a thing. Yeah. But I also liked how she then reflected on what it was like to go home and de-back in her family space and the impact that that had on her. So that was interesting. But the last point I just wanted to have a chat with you about Mimie is. He's a practitioner who, let's say, it's used down the track since that happened. Yeah. And she's still reflects on that in a way that's about her practice. She's still. He was asking herself, "Did I do the best that I could have with that family? Would I change anything that I did?" And I think that's a mark of a good social worker. Oh, I agree. It's that lifelong learning and ongoing reflective cycle that we talk about. But actually, no case stands alone. Every case that you experience and work on feeds into a reflective cycle that means that you are improving your practice. Every case you go through in your career. I think that's actually one of the great gifts that this social worker has given us in her story is an example of how to reflect as a mature social worker on the work that you've done always. I think we need to leave it there. What a beautiful point to end our conversation. What do you think? Yeah, I think so as well. I just want to thank. I know we're always thanking our social workers for their stories, but I know that this story would have been hard for some people to listen to. It is a sadder one. And I think, reflectively, it's also hard sometimes for social workers to tell these stories. And I really do want to thank the social workers who give us their stories on this podcast, because as we said at the beginning, we de-identify stories are changed, but the essence of how you work with people is, I think, very true. Beautiful, I said, Nimm. Let's leave it there, then Liz. Our listeners can hit us up and send us messages on @sowkstoriespod. You know, that would be great because back to the swapping recipes, there might be some really useful tips that other social workers do on call, might also want to share. Oh, that would be great to hear some of those words. Wouldn't that be great? Yeah, we could have a social work stories recipe book. We could, we could. They can also contact us on the website, which is socialextories.com. That's right. And this is our website that is now up and running and we're going to continue to put content up on that website, so people should keep an eye on that anyway. So before we sign off, Liz, thank you to Ben Joseph and Justin Stesh, our producers. And thank you to you, Liz, again, for such a beautiful conversation. I love spending time with you and having these conversations. I know, it's just going to bore people by us kind of loving each other up, but I do too with you. I don't think that's great. I think that's why I do. Bye, Liz. Bye, everyone. See you next time.