The “Why” Is Everything with Madison Utendahl

The following podcast is a deer media production. Hello fam. I am so excited about today's episode because I honestly could have chatted with her forever. Today we are joined by Madison Udendall, the founder and chief creative officer of Udendall Creative and all female black-owned anti-trend branding and design agency. We chat all about recovering from perfectionism, how to avoid and overcome burnout, and so much more. I truly believe that this episode has so many insightful pieces of advice for everyone, and I hope you love it as much as I do. Madison, thank you so much for joining. I know. We've been on prior to this starting, just chit chatting, and now that's honestly what I love the most and why like doing in person so much better than virtual because you have that like intro period to just chat, get to know each other, feel alive. Who are they? And it automatically sets the tone for the interview. I'm going to see you. So I said this to you offline, but I am super fascinated by your focus and determination to like get rid of or I guess like step aside from burnout, hustle culture. And I am a recovering perfectionist type A, control freak who has historically been a overachieving anxious person where like every time I worked up and anxious like I work harder, I obsessor for things further and then I got these accolades and like well, I have to keep doing it. Gotta keep going. I could lock myself in a room and work for a week if I was left to it. Like I love working. Yeah, no, I feel you. And it's toxic. Really fucking toxic. Yeah. Yeah. And I've been trying so hard to set boundaries, cut back, like especially now that I'm a mom, my goal is to spend more time like I spend a lot of time with my child. I'm just like duo, stay at home working mom. I don't know. I don't have a title for myself. I don't really feel I need one. Yeah. But I always want to spend the most time with him as possible and work smarter. So I'm curious selfishly all of your thoughts on this topic. I could talk about this for days. And I also don't have all the answers. I know that. But like can we go back to the beginning? Yes. What do you think led you into such deep burnout? Yeah. Well, I mean, everything you're saying, I deeply, deeply relate. I feel like as a child, I mean, my parents used to joke that like I was like seven years old. And I'd be like, I'm ready to make my doctor's appointments now. And they're like, who is this child? And there's another story that my like, I guess in eighth, seventh or eighth grade, I got I was like, you know, getting on deans list, which I'm also like kind of like middle school of deans list. Like maybe a lot of this was created by that environment. But I got like a B plus. And I didn't get on deans list. Like second semester of my seventh grade year. And I literally like freaked out. My parents that they had sat down and they were just like, how did this child end up this way? So I truly think I was born this way. Okay. My parents are not, I mean, they're super high achieving individuals, but they did not raise us to only be successful. It's like can your parents relax? My mom can. My dad is my cannot. Yeah. That's a good, it's interesting. Like they're both very hyper in different ways. Okay. They're both in their period of their life where they're working less. And I'm watching them enjoy it. So right now I think they're both learning how to relax or can relax. But I bet in my childhood, I would have been like, absolutely not. But as a kid, I was just I had this real obsession with being the best. Just the best. But it was it was I mean, I still feel this way. Like I take a lot of joy and winning. Like the adrenaline dopamine hit of winning. And maybe because like I don't do drugs, I don't drink like that might be my other my way of getting it. And it is my high. And as a child and as a kid, I was like really obsessed being the best. And mainly academically. No, everything. Like sports was, I still love sports, but like really wanted to win in sports. Like I remember my dad having these like very serious conversations with me about like you don't have to like losing, but you need to learn how to respect it, which I actually think is some of the best parenting advice he's ever given me. I need that advice. Well, no, like I academically was not the best. Yeah. And in college, I all the sudden started taking academics very seriously. And like the opposite. Yeah. No, like I had learning disabilities for most of them. I mean, I still do like my life. And I was diagnosed and all these things. And so I felt stupid in like middle school and high school. And I didn't do well in school. And because of that, it was just part of my narrative. I was like, Oh, I'm not good at school. It is what it is. But I was psychotic with sports. And like they were my life. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I was determined to be the best. And I was. And then I went to play D1 LaCrosse so like it all paid off. But in college, I don't know what changed, but I was like I'm going to try my first semester. And I got a 397. And I was like, well, I can never do worse. Like that was my narrative. Yeah. Yeah. I'm like, I now I have to keep this GPA. What if I drop it below that? That would ruin me. And so I was crazy about LaCrosse and my schoolwork while still having this social life. Like I don't know how I survived. Yeah. Wow. And I ended up graduating with like, you know, cum laude, all of those things. I did not keep 397. But I was close. Wow. And it that was what really like took it from not just athletics, but to everything else. Yeah. Yeah. That's so interesting. Yeah. I loved winning. Like I just wanted to be a field day for our winning. My team lost kickball. No, like I'm not even kidding. I'm so I'm so embarrassed by this still. I my husband and I he also played sports in college. And is I'm competitive. This kid is next level. Yeah. Totally. So we had a full draft where we went out on a date. The two of us. We had our entire guest list of the first night and we did a draft of teams. Yeah. Yeah. And I like specifically chose our most athletic guy friend. Yeah. And he was an investment banker and it was a Friday that we were asking people. So he's like, oh, I gotta say my like hotel room and do work. And I was so mad. No. So we lose. And I'm like, what's all his fucking bro? And we're like doing like a handshake thing. And I'm like literally almost into you. And Joe looks at me and he's like, Cam. You gotta shake. You gotta grow up. Yeah. Like at this point, grow the fuck up. It's our wedding. It does not matter grow up. It's a very respecting losing thing now. Yeah. So I'm so learning. Sorry. I took a sound to tangent. No, you're good. You're good. No, it's funny. You say that because I took I had the opposite experience where I got to college. And I went to Brown. So I also think it was like the environment of like if you were the like type A over a cheap brown, you were a fucking loser. Do you know what I mean? Like that was not the place to be like, I have to be the best. That was a place to like do mushrooms and like miss class because you were having like a philosophical like debate with someone like on the lawn. Yeah. Just it just it unlocked in me the like part of myself that I now very much exist in. But like it was the beginning of the like I don't give a fuck Madison. Okay. Part of me that like I didn't even know existed until I got to college. Amazing. Where like I realized first of all, Brown was college was hard for me and it would have been hard for me anywhere just like where I was in my life. But the ability to take classes past fail. Wait, you can do that at Brown. Yes, you can. All of them. All of them. What? Unless you are in like gonna apply to business or bad school, you can elect to have ABCDs. Okay, well, that's incredible. Oh, yeah. So what it means is for someone like myself like a type A person, the permission to still pass and get like a 75 was oh, I became like I graduated from Brown like probably barely getting through and I was like, yes. Well, and that's honestly like the working smarter not harder. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, I feel I always need permission to do. Yeah. That I don't know if I've ever given myself or been given by someone else. Yeah. Well, what a black environment was. That's like that was one of the biggest unlocks for me that even now I think about a lot because the perfectionism and the type A tendencies came right back once I started working. Okay. Because I went back to environments like my high school middle school that were not conducive or encouraging of people like having healthy balances. Yeah, I worked you work out of school. Was that HBO? Okay. And this was in the heyday of HBO. I mean, HBO is never not in a heyday, but this is really when it was like girls, Game of Thrones, insecure, I mean, just the coolest place to work. Yeah, I'm sure. And I went right back to those high school tendencies of just like I need to be the best and working in television is So hard. Yeah, it is you get paid on 12-hour day minimum and I mean one thing I do respect about Hollywood and TV is that like it's one of the few places that's still very much like everyone starts in the mail room Everyone doesn't matter who the hell you are how much money you have like everyone starts there Yeah, and so it's extremely humbling especially as like you know I was 21 years old fresh out of an ivy like thought my shit didn't stink and now I'm like oh fuck it It does it does This is low But it really ingrained in me like okay, I have to work over time I have to work harder than everybody else. I have to be the best. I have to just out shine and It killed me How long were you there for I was there for about two years When we moved to the suburbs we did a massive audit of everything we owned clothing kitchen gadgets shoes appliances Etc. You name it we sorted through it and decided what we were going to keep and what we were going to donate since we were starting fresh in this new house I wanted to upgrade some items that felt a bit of to run down for my liking Specifically our pots and pans we had had hours for Probably eight as years and they had definitely seen better days We decided to swap our old set with caraway and I have been so freaking happy with the decision since the day they arrived at our doorstep Most importantly caraway's high quality ceramic coated kitchenware is free of PTFE such as Teflon lead Cadmium and other toxic materials now that I am cooking majority of my son's meals This was a huge selling point for me and something I made a priority when looking for pot and pan replacements Also, I absolutely love the variety of chic shades the sets come in there are options for everyone's personality and style and I of course Went with their navy to play off the blue tone of our kitchen. 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Let me tell you I freaking hate Cleaning pots and pans like I utterly despise it and caraway requires minimal butter or oil for slide off the pan eggs And it's super easy cleaning and I am so grateful for that if you're hooked like I am Visit carawayhome.com/camarin to take advantage of this limited time offer for 10% off your next purchase The steel is exclusive for our listeners So visit carawayhome.com/camarin or use code camera and check out caraway non toxic cookware made modern Hey friend, I'm Nicole Walters mom of three your internet bestie and founder of inherent learning company If you're looking for the motivation you need to pursue a life of purpose Then join me each week on the Nicole Walters podcast as I share my hard-learned lessons and answer your DMs about life Business and everything in between will laugh will cry and will grant ourselves grace as we do life together Check out the Nicole Walters podcast every Tuesday here on dear media. You can listen anywhere you listen to podcast Do you ever feel like because right out of school similar Yeah, I mean similar situation in the sense of like going right back into the overachieving because for me with school The college thing was yes I was obsessed with my work and lacrosse, but I was also like it wasn't that that was closeted But that wasn't my identity like I was at every party. I was like that type of person So I didn't feel like I was competitive with other people was more insular. Yeah, especially with academics Yeah, and then I went to JP Morgan out of school Oh, yeah, I was in sales and trading for five years and talk about hyper competitive Psychotic behavior my parents are in vassam bankers. Okay. You get it. My mom was an investment banker My dad's been in the Finance industry his whole life so like I grew up watching this. Yeah, same and it was what was ingrained in me So clearly yeah, okay, so that they had the same truck. Yeah, but I Just felt now when I reflect back. Yeah, I a want to like hug that girl. Yeah, like so like I will when I'm in my feelings Like just start hysterically crying. Yeah, I think about it. Yeah, poor little girl. I know but also like I think about how hyper focused I was on my own success and so Like tunnel vision. I almost envision those horses with blinders on where I'm like my life is the only thing that fucking matters I need to be the best and I need to do this and I regret so much of what I miss Do you feel that way? A lot of what you just said really hits home and one thing that came to mind as you were speaking is that like So much of those tendencies that we both embodied for so much of our lives is really a product of the environments and the institutions that we were very much operating underneath and That's my biggest call out is that shame on these schools That allowed for 18 year old girls or 15 year old girls to feel That they had to perform that way in order to be accepted see and loved Told they were good. Yeah, cuz that's the reality right is that like at least for me and now at not one moment throughout my like middle school or high school years Did anyone in those institutions in my high school or middle school say like How are you feeling doing all this work? Right. How is this stress impacting your body? Never never? No one took any sort of emotional consideration of like what is happening for that child? Where they what are they actually not learning about themselves that they're gonna learn the hard way as an adult because we're not giving them any space When they have no consequences. I should have been all in my fields at 14 15 years old That was the perfect time. I had no fucking job I mean, what the hell was I responsible for were your parents ever pressuring you to be the best No, but you know, they just led by example, you know like they were both such high achievers and they Had you know routine Wall Street people so I didn't really know No one showed me that like you could sleep in oh Neither oh my god. No, if you said to best 730 what the hell were you doing? No even on the weekend my parents would be why are you sleeping? Yeah, yeah, get out get the fuck up. Yeah, but that's their trauma from that generation Because like my parents are I love them to death. They're 66 and 67 and like man That generation I'm convinced is like does not deal with their feelings. Oh Oh man, and all my friends parents. I would say the same thing. My parents are the exact same age a year younger. Yeah Like that was am I and it's not their fault? What's that? No, no never and so we're Self-taught in many ways right like so much of this awareness the decision to go to therapy to unpack to stop drinking and meditate No one showed us that right like that's really we have to give ourselves that grace But I do look back on the institutions because I'm like you knew the consequences our parents were first I mean for me. I was like the first the eldest child essentially. Okay, and then they had like Never done this before I can't expect them to have known to like tell that 14-year-old child to go within Mm-hmm, but like schools know How many 14-year-olds did they like they had they know they know that 14-year-olds need that time and space But they don't make it a priority. Maybe they do now. Well, it's interesting You say like I was about to say and isn't it kind of messed up how I Don't know how much better with scotting my mom is on the board of school that I went to it's a K through 12 and She'll talk to me sometimes about initiatives. They're doing specifically focused on mental health So yes, it's starting But I think it's taken a lot to get there and I also think that from what I've spoken About with friends about their schools or even like family friends whose kids are younger maybe they're on kind of the beginning of this curve because They're like the mental health of the younger generation is similarly terrifying Yeah, and you even you look at the side rates of kids like it's heartbreaking. Yeah, and I I think that's also why I'm so determined to work these roots out of me because now as a parent and Especially as my kid gets older and we bring more kids into this universe hopefully like I want to create a space where they're okay With not being the best. Yeah And I actually think one of the things I've learned in the past few years that I've loved is I like not being the best. Oh my god. I'm with you. It's amazing. It's kind of awesome. Oh my god I am so with you. I'm like fuck I wish I learned this like 10 years ago Because being the best there's just so much pressure that like I don't want to deal with no I'm with you and like it gives you permission to just Chill of fuck out and sleep and like not have to be formative in any way. I'm like I mean, I think that part of me will always have this tendency of you know putting a hundred percent into something Mm-hmm but what I've let go of is the false sense of control I thought I had in in in what that outcome would be Yeah, right like I can still dedicate a hundred percent of my time into my projects and love them But once I release them into the world that's the part of me that's just like Okay, goodbye. Goodbye. Well, otherwise otherwise before I would have been like trying to hold on to it as much as possible and control every Environment in order for that outcome to have been perfect. Mm-hmm And now I'm like I don't give a shit. So it's so interesting. You you say that because two things come to mind. First is that yes, we can still put 100% of ourselves into these things, but I also think it's the main factor that's shifted for me and I can hear in you is but why are we putting 100% into these things? Are we putting 100% into these things to be the best? Or are we putting 100% into these things because we love this project and we care deeply and passionately about it? - Right, right. - That's a very different narrative. - 100%, 100%. Similarly, what you were even doing with your hands, I envision that my past and still I can fall into this and I catch myself, I honestly fell into it yesterday, slash this morning is I call it like a bottled neck grip where I am like strangling projects and life. I'm like, go my way, but do what I want you to do. And whenever I do that, I have such a tight grip that nothing can come back up. - No, nothing can arise because I'm so psychotic and trying to control it, that it can't go the direction it's meant to go. - Absolutely. - And when I'm like, let's see where this takes us. Like the things that arise are more incredible than I could have originally imagined. - And that's how the world is really designed. - Right. - Is that like the more we let go and put out there for other people to receive and for the universe or God or whatever it is for however anyone identifies. The more likely it is to actually be abundant and rewarding and doing good for the world. But the more we hold on to and try to control, like we're really serving only ourselves and in a really harmful and negative way. A friend of mine who is incredibly successful and he and I share, I joke we've like paths of like burnout awakening that like we're very aligned. Like we both came to these awarenesses around the same time of like what the hell are we doing? Why are we working this hard? Why are we killing ourselves, et cetera? - Yep. - And he said to me, he was like, you know, I realized that it's a really lonely place at the top of the mountain. - So lonely. - And I was like, that is so true. He's like, there's really no glory in being alone at the top. And I really want everyone to know that is there's no glory up there. 'Cause you look around and you're by yourself. And it's like, hey everyone down there that I pushed and shoved aside together. - Yeah, and you're like, what's how are you doing? - What's the point? - Now I'm alone. - Yeah. Like, you know, now I have an amazing team of women I work with and I can't tell you how much they mean to me. And there's, I mean, one, like I'm just inspired by all of them, they're just really, really humans. But to be able to celebrate and share the wins together is like gives me literal goosebumps. It's just so much more fun. It's so much more fun. - Yeah. - Okay, I want to go back because I completely feel like I took us off this path, but you're at HBO. - Yes. (laughs) - And you experienced burnout. - Oh yeah. - What is that look like? - Burnout like three times in my career, like really terribly where it burnout for me actually manifests itself medically and physically and somebody who will get like almost like chronic pain-creantitis, which is extremely painful. It's essentially like for some people it's autoimmune, for me it's just stress induced. Your pain grease is essentially the part of your body that breaks down nutrients. - Yeah, right. - And basically gets like stuck, incredibly painful. The cramping that comes from that. - Yeah, right. - My doctor would be like, that's absolutely not how you describe pain-createitis, but that's what I'm going with. (laughs) - We're not doctors here, everyone knows that. - Don't worry. - I'm not my list. - I have to win when I burn out. - None of my listeners are expecting any type of actual doctorate. - It's like, that's absolutely not pancreatitis. - But every single time I've burnt out, that has been the symptom. And the other one is like I developed like severe debilitating and chronic fatigue. I can't tell you when I was at HBO, I went to doctor after doctor after doctor after doctor trying to see why I was so incredibly tired. I was so tired that I would actually like go into empty conference rooms and lock the door and lie down for like 15 minutes. Like that's the level of exhaustion I was under. I got tested for a million things and my doctor ended up saying to me, he was like, you need to realize that there's actually nothing medically wrong with you. - I'm literally listening to someone tell my story. - Yeah, I'm like, there's nothing medically wrong with you. - I was like, what do you mean? Yes, there is, I got this, I got fucking pancreatitis. I got all of a sudden, he's like, yes, you have these things. He's like, but we cannot find anything in your system. - It was me and my digestive health. - Yeah. And he was like, you need to understand the relationship between your mental health and your gut. They're deeply connected. - Deeply. - And most people who have chronic stomach issues like this, I also had, yeah, I had all sorts of things. - Same. - It's mental, it's environmental. So I left HBO and I will say that like, even though I was burnt out and exhausted, it was so proud of my work there. And I was really proud to be a part of the team and everyone I worked with was wonderful. I would say, I've burnt out three times, but that was a time that was like, truly self-inflicted burnout. Like that was Madison needing to overachieve in a way that I learned, the hard way was unnecessary. The second time I burned out, really terribly was environmental, was because of my time at Museum of Ice Cream, which was like, that environment was, everyone burnt out at the whole company. Like every single person I worked with left, that was environmental. So I think that ultimately there are different reasons why we burn out. It's just a matter of like, are we able to identify in ourselves the symptoms of our burnout? - Yep. - 'Cause you can be in different environments, you can be in different relationships, but burnout will most likely continue to manifest itself in similar ways. And if we don't know what those symptoms are, it gets undiagnosed, I should say. - You want to know the best way to start your day by prioritizing your health. For me, that is what my morning routine is all about. And sure, I'm talking about mental health, which is why I meditate and journal, but also physical health. My mornings, as you know, are my vital me time that set the tone for the rest of my day and put me in the right headspace to take on whatever comes my way. One of the main players in that routine is athletic greens. I gave Age You Want to Try, because I heard about it on a podcast ad just like this, and I was super interested in making my health a priority. I didn't feel like I was getting enough nutrients in my diet, so I was super interested in the supplement, but then I became hooked when I learned Age You Want is way more than greens. I take Age You Want in the morning immediately after I meditate, and while I write down my morning thoughts before I work out, and it makes me feel like I'm prioritizing my health and doing something good for my body first thing in the morning. Last week, when I was in LA recording a bunch of podcasts, you better believe I had my Age You Want travel packs with me. I truly do not go anywhere without them. Especially while traveling, the immunity support is so vital, and Age You Want travel packs make it so easy. You simply pack them in your toiletri bag, rip one open each morning, mix it into a glass of water, and enjoy. It provides me with the comfort of my morning routine, even while on the road, and it is such a small act that makes such a big difference. So if you want to take ownership of your health, today is a good time to start. Athletic greens is giving you a free one-year supply of vitamin D and five free travel packs with your first purchase. Go to athleticgreens.com/FFF. I had the best freaking lunch this week thanks to Sakura. As it continues to be cold outside, I want something super cozy and comforting for lunch. Of course, it also has to be delicious and filling. The Sakura, Southwestern Sunset Soup, and Chipotle Corn Muffin did just that. Wow, did it hit the spot. The soup was super flavorful and rich and the epitome of a cozy winter meal. But let me tell you, this Chipotle Corn Muffin oh my freaking god, it was delicious. There aren't many good gluten-free baked goods out there, but this one hit the spot. It had actual chunks of corn in each bite, which was just the cherry on top for me. And yes, of course, my son was a huge fan as well. Or you would all surprise. As he self-proclaimed non-lunch person, this meal won me over, especially given the fact that all I had to do was reheat it. It took like 15 minutes out of my afternoon and was so free to eat. The best part is that I was able to go about my afternoon and not have any post-lunch slump where I'm feeling pulled to my bed for a quick nap. Most importantly, it kept me full and energized until my mid-afternoon snack, which is a big win for me. If you haven't heard about the car before, let me fill you in. Sakura delivers signs back, plant rich nutrition programs and wellness essentials right to your door. They're ready to eat meals or nutritionally designed to deliver results from weight management and ease bloat to boost energy and clear skin. And that's what I'm going to do. I'm going to do a little bit of my day off and I'm going to do a little bit of my day off and they're like, "You have this, but I don't know why." And I don't know what's causing it. And for me, I think it was environmental. Like that industry is just cut throat. Yeah, yeah. Like a breeding ground for burnout. But also personal. Like I wanted to be in the Antelopecent Associate Top Performing Clot. Like I wanted all of these things. And I was hell bent on getting it. getting them and with our performance reviews, if I didn't get the e for excellent, then what was I even doing? I wanted the top portion of the bonus. I was obsessed and so much of my life was wrapped up in that badge of honor for me, for my job, that kept me there even when I could so easily recognize that I'm not my best version of myself here. And I used to say all the time, it was at this time I was working there, I had started Freckle Foodie which eventually evolved into camera-dokes writers, the social content I have now, and planning a wedding and I kept being like, I am a running with a blindfold on, and I will hit a wall, but until I hit it, I'm sprinting. And then I got hit by a car and it was like, oh, jokes on you, bitch, that wall is a car and it's gonna hit you. - Yeah, wow. - And that like shifted everything for me and talk about universe. Like that was wake the hell up and slow down. But I still knowing everything we're talking about right now, can fall into the hamster wheel of specifically content creation. So coming from my job now, it's easy for me to tap into like not that I wanna, I don't think there ever is a best. You can't really like want to try that. - Yeah, not what you do now, yeah. - In what we do, but it's also simultaneously really easy to compare 'cause like you can see numbers everywhere. So it's like, oh, they have that many followers or they get that many views in a wheel or they got that partnership. And that's where I think when I over consume, I can easily go into that. - Sure, sure, sure, yeah. - Insular, you gotta do better. You gotta do this. You gotta get that vibe. - Yeah. - How do you combat that in this space now? - Well, I do eat all my social for a week every month. - A week every month. - Yeah, I find that like that's kind of the threshold of for me when that like comparison, looking at people's this then whatever kicks in. And it resets me. I'm like, oh, right, this is life without it. My life is wonderful, nothing has changed. Does it matter how many followers that brand has or this new client? - No, I don't even know. 'Cause if I don't have Instagram, I don't know who's working with who. And so that's one of the best tricks of the trade that I have is like pull it out, get rid of it. Not forever, you don't have to like delete your account. I still will look at it on my laptop. So again, like it's, I put like, I don't know. The interfaces for these things on your desktop computer are shit. Which is great, right? So you just like can look, be like, okay, nothing's changed, cool, and I'm out. So that's one of my like, I mean, I live by that. Swear by it, it's amazing. I would say I've also gotten to a place in realizing and accepting that like, everyone has their own path in time. And so if someone else is on a role with the partnerships and content or clients, it doesn't mean that I am operating in scarcity. - Yeah. - And it doesn't mean that I'm not gonna have that experience or even more than that. At some point, it's when you start measuring or weighing that like right now, where are we? That's when it gets super dangerous, right? - Completely. - So I've just sort of gone to this place just like, in general, just being like, don't care. Don't care. Even if I do care, I tell myself I don't care. Right? - That I'm working on this, obviously. - I'm just like, you don't care. I talk to myself all the time. My fiancee's always like, what? Huh? Cause I'm just constantly in conversation. - What are you saying? - What are you talking about? I'm like, oh, don't worry, I'm talking myself. I'm talking with dogs. But letting go of that and just saying like, it doesn't matter. You don't care. It doesn't matter. You don't care. Or acknowledging like, you do care, but it also doesn't matter. - Yeah. - The other sort of like esoteric way I'm looking at this is understanding that like, all of the emotions I feel around fatigue, burnout, lack, insecurity, all that is actually a product of systems that have been designed like in this world to like keep women down. I have been reading a lot about the NAP ministry and I'm blanking on the author's name, but she has like. - Oh, I know who it is. - Oh my God. Like my mind is fucking loved. - Deep into that like a year or so. - Oh my God. I mean, the idea that like our fatigue is a product of the patriarchy. At first I was like, what? And I was like, oh my gosh, she was like, no, the whole system is designed for women to be over-exhausted. And never feel like we're achieving or doing enough, whether as mothers, as wives, as business, women, as friends, daughters, sisters, that that inherently means that we're exhausted. And the systems are designed for us to be exhausted. So that if we're exhausted, we can achieve and we can't be competitive to men. - What? - Yeah. - Like what I was reading has been like, this all makes total sense. - And I feel it goes back to what we were saying, where like it almost gives me mentally permission to be like, well then I'm fucking out. - Yeah, totally, totally. - Peace. - Like I don't have to play this game because I'm not subscribing to this. - Yeah, but yeah, it was just mind blowing to come to the awareness that like, oh, this is so much bigger than me. - So much bigger. I mean, and especially I know you've talked about this 'cause I read an article that you were part of, but especially for Black women. - Yeah, it's a whole other layer. - It's a whole other layer, which Nat ministry focuses on. It's just, it's similarly we were talking about, not drinking before this, the book quit like a woman. It's a very similar thing where it almost gave me this confidence in my decision to be like, well, actually, I'm not subscribing to that. So I'm gonna take myself out of this game. - 100%, 100%. - I had this moment actually yesterday where my husband and I were talking and he's not on social media, which is such a good. - For him. - The best, like, - Legend. - Honestly, he's one of a kind. There's very few in the world. That's great. - It's so funny when he'll say certain that like, obviously in high school he was on, well, kind of on Facebook, but like, has never had an Instagram, never had a TikTok, none of these things. And he will like, sometimes say things like, and he keeps up with mine through Instagram.com/freckledfoodie. He'll look every day. Well, now it's Cameron Oaks Rogers, but he'll look every day to like, see what I post and like, talk to me about it. And I love him for that. But he can't see my stories, which is the best. 'Cause if you don't have a count, you can't watch them. So like, he has no idea what the hell I'm doing right on there. But he will ask me like, he keeps up to date with my show. And so he knows these people when I'll talk to him about stuff. And he asked me about a creator recently. And he was like, oh, well, what do you think? Do you think she's a good influencer? And I was like, she's not the influencer I'd want to be, but she's an influencer that people want to follow. - Yeah. - And it came out of my mouth without thinking about it. And then I was like, that's so interesting that I am able to acknowledge that because there is a difference. - Yeah. - And that's something I've recently, yeah, right? - That's serious, gross. - I was really proud of myself. I talked about my stories this morning. I'm like, go me. But that was a very, a moment where I've recently come to terms of the fact that I can respect other people's content or work or whatever it is they're doing and simultaneously not want to do it. - 100%. - Like 100%. - I don't subscribe to that. - Yeah, and like, I made a comment to a friend of mine about a show that is made by a black creator that like I don't think is funny. - Okay. - And I said to her, I was like, I don't think this show's funny. And she said back to me, she's another black woman. She was like, it's okay for black people to make mediocre content too. - Well, yeah. - And I was like, oh, she was, I was like, fucking right, she was like, why people make tons of mediocre content? It's okay for us to make mediocre content. - I was listening to something. - Whoa, yeah. - I was listening to it. I cannot remember I was listening to something recently and it was, I honestly don't remember, if it was a black woman or a man, but they were saying how, like, I just wanted to create a show where it's like, a family talking about fucking nothing and they're black. Because how come every show that has black characters has to be these like, like, altering moments. Like, can't they just sit in a kitchen and talk like all these white people on TV? I need to remember what this was. - Wait, but bad news, it was so true. - That's exactly my friend's point, right? - Yeah, same old. - It has to be this like, huge thing. I mean, we see it on TikTok now, right? Like, with creators, a black creator has to create like, not even 10x, 100x, style of content to get the cloud and fame that a white creator can sit there and do like, you're ready with me? Why I put on my makeup and talk about nothing? - Right, no, it's somehow a mess. - It's so true, but it also just ties back to like, I mean, obviously it's disproportionate. People of color have to do 100% more to get any sort of recognition. But regardless, I think the reality is that it's the lack of judgment. Can we all reach a place where there's a lack of judgment of anyone creating anything that's mediocre? - Yep. - Right, like, can black people create mediocre things? Period. And it not be judged. And it not be, you know, put up against Denzel Washington every fucking time. I'm like, okay, we know he's great. Let other people just be okay, come on. You know, and like, for all talent and content creation, it's like, that's the answer. It's like, okay, is it, there's no such thing that's good or bad. It's just like either for you or not for you. - Yep. - And if we could reach a place where like, everyone could just be mediocre. It would do a lot, it would do a lot for me. It would do a lot for so much for me. It would do a lot. And so I'm like, I struggle with, I've gone to a place where I just like, won't post versus like accepting the mediocrity. So before it was like, I was incessantly posting and I was like, this has to be perfect. The other flip is like, no, I don't post half as much 'cause I'm like, oh, I don't know if it's like perfect. But I'm going for the gray this year. I think about when I've like, achieved someone like the biggest career accolades that I've had and like really where was I mentally. It was probably like the most depressed burnt out places of my life, truly. And sure you could say like, well, that was brilliant work and you got the webbies and you got 30 and 30 and all that stuff. But like, in hindsight looking back on it, I'm like, the cost was severe and extreme. Like I would never do it again. If someone was like, you had to live your life that way again for the next decade to win webbies and get 30 and 30 and be like, hell no. - Yeah. - Don't even get 30. - Oh my god. - 30 and 30. - I'm like, no. - He obsession I had with that. I don't even know why I thought I deserved it. - Because that's what this society is like. - I want it so badly. - But it's designed that way. And like, here's the thing. I, every year, I get people who reach out to me. People don't even know. Joe Schmoh from across the street. Hey Madison, love you. Don't know yet. How can I get 30 under 30? Not kidding. - People obsessed with it. - Obsessed and I'm always like, if your drive to get this is rooted in the accolade, you're not gonna get it. That's just how the universe works. Hate to tell you. But that's just the reality. Is that like, it has to be rooted in a real why? I, first of all, anyone of your listeners who think that you just wake up one day and you get an Academy Award for a Webby Award of Forbes in the '30s. - Hate to tell you. You gotta apply for all that shit. So that's the other thing. People just think that you wake up one day and you're like, "Oh my God!" What? I got 30 under 30. Hell no, it's a whole thing. But the first time I applied for it, I was in this mental head space of having left museum of ice cream and I had a really terrible exit. And I had not a good relationship with my co-founders at the end. And I was on this crusade to get it. I was like, I have to get 30 and a 30 to prove these fuckers wrong. I have to. I have to. That was like this vengeance that I had. And guess what? I didn't get it the first time because the universe does not reward that mindset. At all. The second time I applied, I had done the therapy and had released this tension I had with my co-founders. And I accepted that I wasn't supposed to be there anymore. That I was actually supposed to do exactly what I was doing at the time, which was building my agency. And that year was when George Floyd happened. And my company and I took this huge pivot from our regular programming and started to like use graphic design sort design studio to educate people and get empower people to like really share what these things, what's happening in the world in Hawaii. It was such deep meaningful work. It was, and is some of the most proud work that I've ever done in terms of the impact feeling that like design was giving back to the world, seeing how my team felt, the motivation they experienced. There's a why. Huge why. And so the time came again to apply to 30 under 30. And I remember I said to my ex-boyfriend, but boyfriend at the time, I was like, I actually, I'm not going to apply to this this year. And he was like, why, you got it? And I was like, I don't really got it. I was like, I don't, this doesn't really mean anything to me anymore. He's like, well, what would it mean? Like how could you do it? And it means something. And I remember saying to him, I was like, if one black woman sees me on this list and inspires her, then I guess it means something. And he was like, write your application about that. And that was the year I got it. And so that's the advice I give to everyone about this list. You reach out to anybody who's been on it. I bet you there's actually a lot of substance behind their experience and why they got on it. I mean, sure, there's definitely like, you see the odd in that, like these big celebrities on it. And you're like, oh, come on Forbes. Like really that person? Like I think they got enough shit. Like, you're meant to give them one of those spots. Come on. But why is everything? It's just, it's everything. We lose sight. And I spent most of my 20s losing sight of my why. Now I'm 30. And my why is so clear. And I don't care about any of that shit anymore. Like it doesn't change your life. No, 30 or 30 does not come with a million dollars. I wish it did. Please, that'll be a trailer. Oh, and then I understand the hustle. Yeah, right. OK, let's look at it. No, but I totally got it. The why, whether it's Forbes or 30 or 30, whether it's why you're doing the work that you're doing, but the whole thing is the focus in the why, because what is it? And that's what's also, I found, shifted a lot of my content in the past year or so, because I found a new why. And it has lit me up and been like, that's my purpose. That's why I shared. That's why I've done this. I want to just really quickly get into some things that you now do for people listening who are like, fuck, I resonate so deeply. I'm struggling so badly. I'm in burnout city. What do you implement in your daily, weekly, monthly, other than pulling the plug on social? What do we come on? That's a big one. But I can't stress that enough. We are-- there's a great book called Dopamine Nation. I've heard of this. It's great. It just talks about how, whether you like it or not, everyone's addicted to their phone, everyone. And our brains are wired to crave dopamine. So giving your brain the opportunity to not have that jerk reaction to scroll is not just about your overall-- it's really for your body. Give your body that release. So that I swear by-- I put my phone on airplane mode every night when I go to sleep, and I do not get off airplane mode until I meditate in the morning. Non-negotiable for me. Like, my fiancee knows if he does not hear for me in the morning, and he's already left for work, it's like, I'm not down with my routine. So that's a part of my habit in terms of protecting my peace. I'm just curious because people ask me a small time what type of meditation do you do? I do Vedic. OK. So if you're based in New York, there's a meditation school here called Spring. It's on-- it's on what street is that? I think it's on Lafayette. They have a meditation intensive that I took right before COVID. Thank God. I was like, holy shit. When COVID hit, I was like, I'm so happy. Yeah, I think I'll-- I think I'll-- January 2020. It's a three day intensive. And it's intense. I mean, you go home. You don't sleep there. I did an intensive in New York. It's great. It really taught me how to meditate. I had tried all the courses in headspace and show print. You're still on your phone. Like, you know what I mean? So it's the intent. It doesn't-- how can you-- I mean, to each their own, but I was not going to be able to learn how to meditate using my phone. Because once my phone's in my hand, I'm doing something. Yeah, 100%. So I've duvedic meditation. Huge journaler. I did the artist's way, ish, half of it. That's one of my to-do's to finish it. And they have this morning routine where you write three pages, "Dream of Consciousness." Just like, whatever comes out of your brain. And I do it still. And it's magic. I don't do three pages. But I do that. Just don't-- It's total gibberish. Sometimes I feel like I have these moments where I'm like, I got to write a book about that. But like, rarely, most of the time is just-- I'm like, I hope no one reads it. No one reads it. Like, my dream was so fucking weird. Yeah, totally. Totally. But it's-- these like-- and everyone's like, wow, your routine sounds really long. And I'm like, I don't do all of it every single day. On the weekends, I can meditate, journal, work out, keep the phone on airplane mode. Great. But during the week-- sometimes I just get time to meditate. Sometimes I just get time to journal. But giving myself the daily requirement to do just one is so important. And then the other things that I do to protect my peace with my burnout, and I take full acknowledgment. I have a lot of privilege in the my own business. So I have agency inflexing my own hours. But founders deserve time off and mental rest as well. And content creators and freelancers-- all of us that are like in it to win it by ourselves. We are also deserving of the time off that if you're an employee at a business that you get. But we're the last people to think we'd need that. And so I've mandated a lot of things in the business. Which I've seen. And I respect the shit out of. People think it's crazy. And it is a little crazy. But it's a game changer. So you've mandated five weeks off. We have five weeks off. And it's the same five weeks for everyone. Same five weeks for everyone, not at one time. It's two weeks over, Christmas, Hanukkah, New Year's, a week over, spring breaks, Passover Easter, two weeks in the summer. Incredible. Whole company is closed. Clients have the dates in their contracts when we start with them. So there's no surprises there. People are like, how do you convince them? I'm like, let them know when you sign the contract. I don't spring it on people. It's not like, hey, we're off or two. We use peace. They're fully aware. And then the other two things that we do that I think like saves me and everybody else is that the date is not start on Monday until noon. Oh my God. Yeah, baby. Are you hiring? Yeah. I'm a creator and I'm like, can I come work for you? I would like-- - It is, if you can, most people can actually make that structure for themselves. - Yes, that's the thing. And like, this is something I'm trying to navigate myself right now, is like more structure around boundaries to protect my peace. What I struggle with the most is the aspect of parenting. And like, I feel a lot of guilt if someone else is caring for my child's and I'm there. There's a lot going on mentally that I need to deal with. And I also just want to be as involved as I humanly can, but I simultaneously know that I need to set time for myself. And I do, but that means my alarm's going off at 5.40 so I can have an hour plus time to myself before he wakes up. Which is fine, I'll do it. I will do anything to have that time for myself first in the morning because it's vital. - I don't have any children yet, but a lot of my mom friends struggle with that exact thing. I feel like, how do I prioritize my peace and my career and my rest? I have some girlfriends of mine who have immense anxiety about having help. And my mom, we had caretakers who supported us throughout my entire life. My mom was a working mom and she always said that she was the best mom that she could be because she had help. - Yeah. - And if we can release ourselves as women of this feeling that we're less than because someone is helping us, in the US is one of the only places in the world where people don't have support. - Really? I also think yes, we can release ourselves, but it comes with releasing the judgment of others. Because I will feel confident, and I feel confident in my decision. - My mom judgment is real mad. - But the judgment that comes to certain things and I feel not even as a mom, I feel, I have a hard time relaxing and vacationing because I come from such privilege that then it's like, oh, you get to fucking do that. That's what the inner voice is for me. - Yeah, for sure. - That eats me up. I could talk to you for literal views. - I know, I was like, do we have to end? - I know. Can you come back? Do you want to be my co-host? - Sure, let's do it. - This was so amazing. - This is great, thank you. - For everyone who wants more of you because I know everyone well, where can they support you? - Just hit me up on Instagram. - With you. - I'm around three weeks a month though. - Yeah. - My new protocol, everyone. Blame Madison. - I just want to walk off. - Three weeks a month, if I don't, you don't hear from me from a week, it's my week off. Yeah. - Your handle. - Madison.utendol. - Okay. - Everything will be in the show notes. This was so wonderful. - Thank you so much. - This was great. - I hope you guys enjoyed this as much as I did. - Thank you all so much for listening to today's episode of Freckle Foodie and Friends. I have so much fun recording the show. It is my favorite part of my job and truly is what lights me up. Your feedback and response to every episode is what keeps me going. And if this episode resonated with you, please feel free to DM me over on Instagram or share on your stories. If you are looking for a way to support the show, please rate and or review on whatever platform you use to listen to your podcast. It means the world to me and it really helped the show grow. Please also make sure to hit subscribe so that you are up to date with new episodes coming at you every Wednesday morning. And of course, please be sure to follow me on Instagram and TikTok at @camarinoaksRodgers. I love you and I appreciate your support so much. Please note that this episode may contain paid endorsements and advertisements for products and services. Individuals on the show may have a direct or indirect financial interest in products or services referred to in this episode.