The well balanced approach | S2E9: Toni McCann, Erin van Eyssen, Brendan Lombard

Hey everyone, welcome back to another episode of Trail Culture. I'm your host, Im Robertson and I'm so stoked that you're tuning in. Trail Culture is already a year old and we're on to season two of the podcast episodes. I can't believe how the last year has flown by. Thank you to each and every one of you for following along listening to the episodes giving feedback. I really couldn't have done any of this without all of you. As you all know, season two of Trail Culture is fueled by carbon endurance. They are an endurance sport consulting company and they really have you covered in terms of fuel and hydration for all of your performance needs. It's amazing to be able to work with a team who understand athletes, understand the trail space and are working to ensure that athletes can have their best training and racing performances possible. Really excited about that partnership, go and check them out, the details in the show and I hope you guys enjoy the episode and I'll see you back here next week. We're our next one. This week we are going to be doing something a little bit different and this is our first round table episode and I'm really excited to kick this off with the BlackRock endurance team. We've had Aaron as a previous guest on the podcast. He was definitely one of the favorites and now we're also joined by Brendan and Tony, Brendan's back in South Africa and we managed to nab him while he is here from the UK and Tony's joining us from France and yeah I'm just excited to chat to you guys about what you do at Flat Rock, your roles as coaches, the different things each of you bring to the table and how you work together as a great team. So thanks for joining and making time for the episode. Oh thanks for having us. Yeah, thanks again to me. Yeah, don't be. Yeah. So I think classic to start off, we usually started each of the humans and just to give a little bit of context as to who is in the interview. So how did each of you find yourself at Flat Rock endurance? Okay, well, I guess I can start because I was at Flat Rock first. Yeah, I guess yeah, so 2017, in 2017, finished my studies in coaching sciences after some other adventures around the world doing different things. We can't continue in for a while and yeah, different pursuits. Yeah, find myself in coaching and started what then was probably just going to be a passion project and grew really well to the point where there was space for some more opinions and approaches and thoughts about doing this and then yeah, Tony jumped on board in 2022, I think, and then Brennan in 2023. Nice. Yeah, yeah. And were you guys coaching a bit before? I know Aaron obviously started the spec brain and tell us a bit about your background. Yeah, prior to joining Aaron, I actually earned a gym in Greenpoint, which at the time was called Bunkery 11 and I mean, that was doing fantastic and it's actually still going. But I got no more part in it, but I think when I moved to the UK, Aaron and I were just chatting and I was at something at that stage called Runners Creed coaching and I coached a bunch of athletes and I think we naturally just co-chadding and thought, you know, why don't we sort of come together and we did away with Runners Creed and became part of Flat Rock and it's been absolutely awesome since. No. Aaron and I have a great working relationship. It's always there. There's a great sun board as well and we bounce things off of each other. Yeah, and it's of course great to be part of a team that we got Tony. Tony with us as well is a highly experienced and and and and and and versed in what she does. So that's pretty much our land. And then yeah. Awesome. And Tony, your journey into being a Flat Rock coach? Yeah, I actually met Aaron when we both were working at Run while he was still finishing up his studies. So we we worked at the Run specialist store down at Breastreet and we got to know each other down there. So I was there at the the early days of the Flat Rock endurance conception and you know the growth of it. And I became I think one of his athletes in what was that 2077, a 19, 2019. I think that's when I that's when I became an athlete under Aaron and and he was kind of part of my journey as my coach. And then like he said, I kind of naturally grew into the role as a coach. I had studied or yeah, I had studied nutrition and diatetics and then my bachelor of science degree, my kind of yeah, my BSE in human physiology and biochemistry. So I have a good understanding of the human body as it is. And then obviously doing my honors in nutrition and diatetics, I have a very slightly different approach to training because I have that nutrition background. So I think that's kind of where I fit into the team. And I think that's kind of like my value add on top of the experience I have just as an athlete as well. So yeah, Aaron has been my coach in guide in becoming the coach that I am today. And I attribute a lot of my approaches and the way of coaching to him and his methods. And I think they work really well. So yeah, that's that's kind of my very brief story with the Black Rock team. That's awesome. And I think each of you bring a lot, I mean a lot to the table. I know some of you better than others and I've obviously heard great things about each of your approaches and the way you do things. And just I just want to chat a little bit about how how does it work with I mean, bringing in my mind, you've got like a real like a S&C background and that's kind of something that you are an expert in alongside the run coaching. Tony, you mentioned the nutrition side of things now. And Aaron, I remember someone describing you as one of the most well read coaches out there. And so I think like there's no like into that for me, it feels like it can be running advice, life advice. Aaron is kind of your guy. But how does each of your backgrounds like influence your coaching style? Yeah, I think it was tricky. And I think we discussed this in the first the first time he spoke about bringing someone on board and separating myself as a coach and having a way of going about things and then being open to other other methods. And I guess having other people represent brands that I've created. But it's it's been really clear how many different ways they are to achieve a good outcome. How they are athletes that suit different people, different coaches. And I think bringing on bringing Tony and Brendan on board was just like to be a proof of that. And they're people who have even moved within the group between coaches and have found a coach that they better suit you with them. And it's so nice to have that opportunity to share that. So yeah, I think I don't really know exactly what I bring. Maybe some experience. But I feel like I'm good with people. I feel like I can read people well and kind of see what they need or want. Maybe when there isn't always clear to them and kind of hold them to that. So I think that I bring about a cute and nice together with some experience and just a love for the sport. But I think that would be probably my my secret weapon, my superpower, because I was to pick one. Yeah, that's awesome. Yeah. Brendan. Nice. Brendan, what I'm like the essence side of things, because you're under Jim. And I'm like, I know I feel like bulletproofing your athletes through essence. He would be something that you do pretty well. But yeah, does that do you feel like it's still a large kind of thing that you weigh up when you're coaching? Is how does that influence your run coaching style? Yeah, absolutely. I mean, look, obviously, I learned a lot from Mary News. I saw my coach right to me, sort of getting fully into the coaching side. But in terms of the S&C, I'm a big believer that every run-in should do strength training. Doesn't matter if you're running at the front or running at the back and like, sorry, running at the back of the back. But like you said, you need to bulletproof your body. And that goes, you know, for you to run. And the thing is, running strength training is not conventional strength training in the gym. It's very different. And I think I'll bring a level of expertise in natural God. You know, I always say running is a one-legged support and it should be trained as such. You don't need to sit in a leg press machine all day and do reps or in a leg extension machine. You actually need to do a lot of your work functionally. And so manipulating the way you move in the gym that is best for the for the road or trail. And I like to believe that I bring that to the table. And yeah, I think my athletes can see the benefits of that too. Nice. And are you guys working in like silos? Do you bounce ideas all for another? Is there moments where you've got like, I don't want to say a tricky case, but like if an athlete's maybe got an obstacle or something or you guys kind of leaning into each other's expertise, picking each other's brains? Absolutely. So we each have our own and training picks its team brand and team Tony and team Errant and we have our athletes and we have the ability to oversee all of them and step in if we need to. But we look after them separately. I think it's too many wires to be crossed when you have multiple opinions and Yeah, I think an athlete arriving at the start line knowing that they've had the singular approach and build up But input we're needed from others, but not sort of they have their person. This is my person This is my coach and I know how I deal with But if there's something strange related I Don't come close to Brendan's experience in Atric art and in terms of nutrition and just general race experience in the big stage Tony's missing streets ahead so I will very quickly reach out and grab an opinion there if I need to Yeah, definitely that's so cool and Tony I mean the the nutrition side of things I love reading your your breakdowns that you put on on Instagram after your races I think your CCC rice face that's like been a discussion. It's like even even the lead struggle to eat rice on And Know too lot of lessons that day and is that something that kind of people are gravitating towards you to get Skydance on is it something that you you like love to work with when it comes to kind of putting the puzzle pieces of coaching someone together Yeah, absolutely. I think Yeah, like Brendan was saying with strength and conditioning. It's very different for a running specific approach It's not conventional as in C and it's exactly the same nutrition. I think nutrition has you know That's the style of nutrition I studied was very much geared towards you know public health concerns cardiovascular disease diabetes Whereas running coaching and nutrition is kind of a different beast You're you're fueling for performance which means your goals are slightly different You know the ratios of your carb to protein to fat and takes a potentially slightly different and it all depends on the person and the goals And I think that's something that really excites me and I love to discuss this with people I think it's one of the topics that I get the most excited about if someone comes up to me and start chatting so For me, this is what I love and I I would hope that I'm able to pass on my knowledge to Everyone within the flat rock group if they wanted to reach out to me So I think that's you know that's something that I think we we do really well as a group You know I would reach out to Brendan if there was a strength and conditioning issue that I needed to sort out You know someone dealing with ITB or some other issue or weakness that they need to fix and you know in terms of emotional intelligence And like how to handle an athlete and their personality and potentially getting the best out of them I mean Aaron is Probably the best person you could ever speak to about anything even outside of running So I think you know we are a very well-rounded team and I think we each bring something to the table that As a collective is very powerful And yeah, I am happy to be a small piece of that puzzle I think we each contribute something to the flat rock group and I think that's pretty special I Ran into one of the flat rock athletes this morning and Tony I don't know if you remember this for these said when you joined the flat rock rock group you played an April Fools joke on The whole crew and They almost took it seriously do you could you remember that can you share what you did? I remember Aaron and I were sitting outside as apartment at the stage and we were We were discussing you know what we could do to make something fun And I think the session that we came up with was Something like make your feet really wet because when you're running an ultra your feet are gonna get wet So you got to have wet feet when you start and then it's something stupid like three platyclips or I can't remember exactly how to keep making it more and more difficult yeah, because Tony didn't understand The level of commitment that the athletes that we were gonna put this in front of hat And what the team one person to actually do it. Yes, they wanted them to look at it And then we wanted the flat rock group chatter to start Like guys is real like who's doing the yeah So every time she proposed the new idea which was like wet shoes heavy pack Fatico replettes in the middle of the night. Yeah, something if you would never you would never completely ridiculous No one would come to take back I was like it needs to be harder because they were gonna do it And like and like clockwork The reneasurable postures and all that sort of arranging where they're gonna meet up to do it. Yes That's what I heard Matt Bauch who was the little bird. He was like very I was ready I was like middle of the night. Let's meet here. I got a shower first with my four kids and then started my They were being as well Oh man like I think last week I was doing a cleanup and it was still going out of good giggle scenes. Was it still there? Oh no way That's amazing. That's like if you your first session if you join flat rock you have to be able to do the the shower and The piece. Yeah, I mean the the 5k time trial that the 5k time trial that people get is generally scary enough Yeah, yeah Oh really I don't know what it is about that kid that can scare trail athlete. It's like I'm training for a hundred miles But I will not run a 5k time job because they get to live in this world free of like hard data That's that states where you are or aren't and it's nothing more honest and it's time trial That's like this is what you can do on pancakes Where your normal route doesn't matter, you know, it's always always gonna be a little bit Yeah, less clear to to measure Why is that eight that 5k T2 Yeah, every extortion the book is like going through the brain. No Am I gonna be faster now and then you think you're not faster than you go to here and say that was actually damn good To be like yes A bit more on the humans. I just so that each of you. I mean, I feel like I I know a little bit about you But just for everyone else, Tony your move to international soil a full race calendar Like work you've got kind of a lot that you're juggling and and I just want to understand a bit of hard you balance your your own training You're coaching your racing Yeah, I can imagine that in a week leading up to a big race to get Kind of messages that are coaching inquiries or like what should I eat on this can can maybe be quite tough It's a compound mentalized. Yeah, that's a bit about that um I'm in a very lucky position at the moment, you know having moved to um France to pursue trail running as my profession as my career um You know, I've had the privilege of working with a group of humans like flat rock who have allowed me to have the flexibility to manage the number of athletes that I take on so You know, I've got a number of athletes that I feel is very manageable for me and I'm also very transparent with them So if there's oh, you know coming up to ccc I'll never say don't contact me But a lot of them understand, you know being athletes and people who race and compete as well a lot of them won't understand that that we is probably not the best time to contact me anyway um But I would never Intentionally not to reply to someone if they reached out um, you know, that's that's just something that I'm there for and a lot of these people that I coach also my friends So it's you know just being a coach you develop a relationship with someone. It's it's really hard not to Um, you're you become so part of their lives, you know, it's part of their training You know what's going on because you've got to juggle things around like life make sure it's sustainable I'm so you before me really strong relationship with them and I think It's that relationship that allows me to Do both jobs because they understand my life and I understand their lives and we could kind of work around each other um But yeah, Aaron has been amazing in allowing me the flexibility to manage, you know, how many people I work with and uh It's been yeah, it's so far. It's it's been okay. It's been manageable um as much as there's a lot going on There's also a lot of time um in the tween the big thing so It's just about time management as with everything yeah as with everything that's amazing um not always very good at it but you try And um, I mean you're bringing you also international move um you've set up a business in the UK Yeah, we had a brief chat off in our about how much works been going into that and um, I think people said on an off been struggling with an injury so Coaching through all of that staying motivating people in maybe you've got some motivational dips. Yeah, how's that been? Yeah, and look I mean I call it spade a spade the UK hasn't but has it hasn't been easy at all um It's it's very different to what we used to hear in South African terms of lifestyle um Personally running for me this year's been tough with like you said the injury um which is attributed to no well nothing except my inability to manage external stresses um moving to a new country having a job um Trying to adapt to a new lifestyle um it is stressful and with that stress and probably a big lesson for me was um Finally learning to acknowledge stress. Yeah, and that it can hurt you so I've been injured and um it seemed like the road was done for me and I went to see a specialist and um They basically said we either got to cut you open or you need to try what they call a high volume injection of Sail on solution into my kiles which I was like okay, well let's try that first. Yeah, it seems to have done the trick So I am running again. Yeah, yeah, yeah, um so far so good, but yeah look up. I'll say this. There's no place like Capetown is super special. Look. You can't replicate it anyway, but you can try your best to make the best of any situation we are in Running in the UK specifically show running is tough Well, at least where we love which is just outside London, which is flat as a pancake But there's a massive road culture and track culture But in terms of trail It's it hasn't quenched our thirst yet So we will be moving on to other avenues and then your future Which I won't say too much of or too much yet, but it will be in Europe Somewhere with the sunshine and there's an ocean and some big mountains. So that sounds awesome. Yeah wonderful Yeah, it's nice when all as a coach. I think it's tough to Coach and motivate out of a place where if you've been feeling like that well for yourself is a little bit empty Yeah, look I mean, I think The best thing to do which which I've been doing nice to take your own advice. Well that advice that you give other people and that is You know take care of yourself and To implement your you know the practices like I said that did you give your athletes and Um, you know a lot of the time we label ourselves and oh I'm unlucky. I got injured or Um, you know, it's it's because of this but if you're not managing Certain protocols yourself as an athlete like are you firm rolling are you taking care of your nutrition? Are you getting in enough sleep? Mm-hmm. If you're not doing that something is gonna give yeah, and I wasn't doing that because I was completely Stressed out with external things that I did break And now we on the mend. It's nice I'm so glad you're loving it's interesting It's interesting how when you are an athlete and I think all of us here are athletes um It's interesting how it's so easy to forget the advice that you give to other people and not apply it to yourself You're the exception to that rule and I think it's always a valuable lesson Like Brandon has learned this year like I've learned in this year and last year and that you have before that Um, there's there's always Something that you can do better something that you can manage and I think it's it's very easy to give out information and to give out advice It's not as easy always to take it yourself Um, so yeah, Brandon and with you, I've learned that lesson before too Yeah, I think it's the beautiful thing about the sport you always learning right yeah a lot about ourselves and the sport Yeah, I'm going to ask all of you more about what you've learned and it's going to be hard to nail down one lesson I think um, but just before we get into that era and I mean I mentioned you were previous guest and a favorite guest on the podcast or one of the Most downloaded and listened to episodes and it's still going I checked actually before I came here um And even what's what's been the biggest kind of shift will change since we last chatted to you It's been listening to my episode on repeat all the time I almost all of those are just me I don't know um Wow, I don't know I think um It's been an interesting shift um I guess separating Aaron coach Aaron runner which you might have touched on in previous chat But I think that's been my biggest Journey over the last little while is like what do I need to be as an athlete In order to be to feel confident as a coach and where do I separate those two things and um Yeah, what is acceptance and what is defeatist and finding that balance? I guess it's like is the game that I've been playing a lot of lately um Yeah, so I haven't figured it out yet. I'm still working on it. Um, but I Yeah, I think that's that's what I have to grow It'll be my my journey going forwards. Sure um I'm still in Cape Town We have good weather and we have bad weather And not quite as tough as Brandon's um still trying to man the fort down here um and yeah, just I guess keep all the athletes healthy and happy as much as possible. Yeah Yeah How I can I almost count biggest flat rock at the moment in time in with all three of you does must be quite assignsable I I often see the flat rock uh cats. Yeah. I was at Tuesday trails last night so a few of those I think there are 80 athletes in total also spread between three of us in different amounts at different times based on different capacities and races that are coming up um So yeah, that's sort of where we are now. I didn't Yeah, really cool. Yeah, which I think is is manageable. I think there's this room the store room to grow. Yeah Growth for flat rock will probably be um Similar sort of practice to what we've done before bringing on coaches who have come from the space to some extent and have experience in like I guess the ethos or what is important to us is Some of putting the athlete first. I think that's the the one common Three that we all have we have different We have you know all of our our recipes on training peaks are all there But we'll have different things that we might likely put in but what is different? Be consistent across the board is that um The athlete comes first. Yeah, they're long term health happiness and I think if that's the core then there's always space to grow with So coaches you know that basic approach I actually read that on the flat rock website This is like part of what I do when I'm interviewing someone as I talk them on On Instagram and they and the general internet and I love something that's actually kind of involved on the abarc page And that's that the whole of the athlete comes first to hit of any race goal. Um, yeah, I'm like Talked I would be interested to hear from each of you what your experience with that has been when you receive an athlete Are people quite like goal driven? Um are they kind of putting their health on the side? Is there quite a lot of like basic learnings that need to come in when it comes to that? Yeah, I mean well the different from athlete to athlete for sure um You're in this interesting space because if they're if they've contacted you they're motivated They're in a good space and they want to go get something Yes, and they've come with All their conditioning and life experience to that point And I need to make a decision of what they bring in the goal. They bring in make sense or not Based on your experience as a coach to someone in the similar situation or a number of people before and can they do it So you don't really want to put that fire out if they're not ready You might want to direct it in a healthier way. So it's it's interesting sometimes it's hard truths Sometimes everything lines up when they're hearing to go and you're there just stoking the fire all day to the end Um, so yeah, I think it does change from athlete to athlete for sure. Okay, um, but I think it's it's been a will into um to To do what they need for their long-term success even if it's short-term sort of disappointments or yeah, thank you She's tricky now. I think being a dad's helped me with that. It's a lot of that Yeah, it's a I feel like I've had a very um Very like clear case of this situation where you have an athlete who comes to you who's so motivated and who has kind of Set up this long list of amazing races that they have already entered and planned to do And they come to you with You know not quite the level that they need to be active complete the races that they want to do especially with the goals that they have um and It was really difficult to navigate that situation because they had these big ambition ambitious goals, but they weren't in a position to train in a way that they needed to train to reach those goals and You know, it it like Aaron says it depends on athlete to athlete and you know, you kind of try different approaches to see which way might work um and eventually it kind of came down to me just kind of giving some hard truths and being like look this You know, I really don't think you should do this. It's it's just not going to be good for your long-term health um He is still an athlete of mine and uh, I think he would be fine with me saying this because he said this to me multiple times But uh, he got quite bad the injured at the end of last year and it's taken a really long time to recover from that Just because he did so much and no matter what I said he was just like no, it's fun. We can do this um and He said to me now recently um that he's very grateful for the journey that we've been on because he's learned so much about What he needs to do to approach these races in a way that's sustainable and healthy In a way that he's not going to get injured at the end of it and for me, you know This has been a too long process of getting him to understand where he is What he's capable of and what that path forward looks like to make Him able to run for the rest of his life and not just for one big race that he's got to go for um So that was really playing the long game, but I think it was a really for me a really happy outcome And a lot of time invested in just trying to like get him to understand What he needs to do to get to where he wants to be and that it might take five years it might take two um But really trying to get him to understand that long game and uh Yeah, I think the results of him coming to me and being like thank you for two years of hard lessons like it's been Super valuable like that for me was really really rewarding. Yeah Um, but yeah, it really depends on the athlete that you have and What motivates them? I think that's where the EQ comes in you've got to be able to understand what motivates a person and a kind of try to care on that um, but yeah So it's never an easy situation to manage goals and expectations and motivation. Yeah Yeah, I was the loudest experience with that Brandon and Erin like is it a generally positive one? Um, yeah, I know you guys mentioned earlier that you kind of Find the best fit for the the athlete amongst the three of you um, but yeah, it's not it's not all smooth sailing and easy chats - No, I don't think, I mean, I've had some hard conversations, especially with elite performers. You like to push the boundaries. But I think whenever you take on an athlete, it's important to find out their training agent and history, kind of figure out where they're at and like Tony and Erin said, it's a case by case basis. But I like to explain coaching over and like building a house. You need that foundation first. And then the war's go up, which is your specificity of training. And then you put the roof on, which is when you would peak for an event. Now, a big job or a big role of a coach is to protect athletes from hurting themselves. Because, like Erin said, when athletes come to us, they're all motivated and they've got these lofty goals. And you know, you will chat to an athlete who potentially says, look up, down to half a marathon, I want to do 100 more racing, three months. And you like to listen, but it's probably not the wisest thing. So yeah, it's all about managing expectations and making sure that we protect them. And also just make sure that they're like our ethos, they stay healthy. Yeah. Yeah, I guess the, I mean, performance has to come out of consistency. And like I think that's the number one pursuit if you can keep them consistent. Even if it means upsetting them in the short term, it will pay off. And yeah. And in a scenario like that, do you guys genuinely go for the, like you've come to me, please trust me with this, maybe not a hundred miles now, but we're just gonna, we're not scrapping that idea altogether. We're just kicking that ball a little bit down the road and then working with them as they develop. Yeah. So, given them a taste, a taste that sounds harsh, given them some, given them an experience that puts their own abilities into reality so that they can actually see. 'Cause it's one thing to watch you team be re-cending, it's super excited and go like, I'm coming in 100 miles and they've done a 40k before when they think it's an easy jump. Yeah. So sometimes it's a balancing act of a compromise to a distance that they'll go out and pursue and have an experience that'll go, okay, wait. Maybe a two year plan to this is safer. Yes. Not so risky that we hurt ourselves, enough that we'll lend some lessons, not such hard lessons that we spend the next two years trying to pull confidence back and come over from. So it could be a case of that. There are cases where the athlete is going to do what they've come to you to do. If you go without you. Yes. And sometimes it's a case of trying to do the best with the situation that you can and often it's trying to mitigate damage or trying to limit the injuries that all out that might come from it. That would be a worst case scenario. But I think it's been willing to say the hard things, which is tricky. Yeah. It's almost easier when you've built up in a relationship with the athlete and you have that trust. Trust that you could say a hard thing and that takes a bit of time to build. And I think the huge thing all that we're seeing at the moment now just as the sport grows is every, there's I think a lot of athletes feel the need to, you know, I'm only a real runner. Once I've run the Smini Ultras or I've done 100K or 100 Myler and I loved, there's been a couple of guests who are like high level athletes and they're just so happy to be marathon specialists or half marathon or under. And I think Tony maybe you can comment first on this but I also love the vulnerability in your post recently where you just said 100K is like, "So Johnny, long way." And I'm still really tired. 'Cause I think we see, you see the media hype and then you go, oh, you know, Tony smashed 100K's on the next day, she's at a Q&A and like, I can do that and then recover and do another race, you know, before the end of the year. So like navigating that space, how's that for for you guys as a team? - Yeah, there's a, there's a sub session like you say in this ultra world at the moment where trail running would I should say where going further is just the next logical step. And I really just like that narrative, I don't think that's the logical step. I think the logical step is pursuing your best in whatever distance you choose and your best is still going to be really hard if you make it hard for yourself. Like it doesn't, you don't have to go 100 miles to go on, you know, a big adventure. It doesn't have to be that far. You can make a 50K, you can make a 40K. You could make a 30K scammer than really, really hard for yourself if you wanted to. Like it doesn't have to be, you know, 100 miles. And for me, you know, stepping up to the 100K this year was very much an internal, an internally motivated decision. It wasn't something that I felt pressure from the outside world to do. It was something that I decided to do because, you know, I wanted to be at UT and B Week. I'd love the event, I love the race, I love the energy around it, but I didn't want to go back to C, C, OCC because I'd done it and, you know, I felt like I'd achieved everything I could at that race. And so for me, for me, my next logical step was to go up to the CCC event and it was something that really excited me. But also, you know, I've been in the sport now long enough and I've gained enough experience in the 50K and marathon and half marathon that I felt like I could make that step and make it confidently. But, you know, I think along with racing, it takes a lot of out of people and so often we just assume that we can bounce back really quickly and I would say only now am I starting to feel, you know, sort of normal again? And I think it's important that we speak about these things as well, you know, often people will go, okay, tick that box, like an athlete will run a race and go, okay, well, what's next? And I'm like, well, no, like just be happy with what you've just achieved. Like that's amazing, whether it's a half marathon or whether it's a 100K. Like let's celebrate what you did and once you've recovered, let's talk about what you can think about next. We're so quick to move on, no matter the distance. And I think that, you know, needing to pursue something else kind of naturally makes people go, okay, well, now I've done this. I'm gonna do the next biggest thing, which is, you know, if you've done a half marathon, then you just, okay, well, I'm gonna do a marathon now. And then you finish the marathon and you're like, okay, well, now I've got to do a 50K. Part of the processing is reflecting on what you put in to get to that space. And often that comes with a lot of sacrifices, especially for the people that we coach, you know, a lot of them have worked full-time jobs or families or a bunch of things that they're juggling and they're still managing to get in the training that we put in. And I think, you know, that is such a success in itself that the race is really just the celebration of that work that they put in. And for me, processing the race requires slowing down, taking the time to look back at everything that you've achieved, not just the race. And yeah, I think part of the obsession with stepping up in distance is that we don't reflect on all the work that goes in and we don't enjoy the process as much as the supposed recognition that you get from running a further distance. Like it's, I feel like we do that for the external validation and not so much the internal validation. And for me, no matter what distance you do, you've got to be internally motivated. It's got to come from your, like, your want and your need to do it versus someone else saying that it's only valuable if you do the 100K at UDCT. It's not. Like if you're doing the 16K, that's amazing. If that's your first event or your 50th event, if that's the distance that you enjoy doing, yeah, it's like that is amazing. Go for it. And we should celebrate those people as much as we celebrate the people who go on, you know, soul quests in the 100 miles. Like it's two different people and it's two different athletes and they're both motivated in different ways. And I don't think one is better than the other. And I wish that narrative would change in the running world. I really do. - And it's trail specific. I mean, no one would assume that a 5,000 meter gold medalist, his medal is worth any less. - Yeah. - Aritha and Justin gold medalist. - That's so interesting. - It's a specialist distance and it requires a different type of approach. Yet in the trail world, it's assumed that you're better at the little higher level if you immediately go up to those distances where there's a reason no one wants to do that five-year time job. You told them. - No, he knows. - Burns and it's hard. But like, if I give them six hours in the mountain, all day long, they have to go and play. So I think it's worth also mentioning, Tony, I'm really proud of the decision-making from starting the sport to that decision to the 100K because that took a long time. I mean, we worked together for five years before she sort of moved to her new coach. And that, there was a lot of time working on short distances and coming back and perfecting and figuring it out and getting better before stepping up where there was plenty of opportunity to do so. And I think it's a nice sort of anecdotal but of every distance to what can happen if you spend enough time figuring a distance out before stepping up. - Yeah. - And there's a lot to be learned more than just suffering for longer. Yeah, that's really cool. - Yeah, I should think this, and where we need to realize this is a massive cost to doing these outries. And I don't mean a monetary cost. [BLANK_AUDIO] I mean, there's something called cumulative fatigue, which happens. And I mean, your body is not just taking a beating. It's your nervous system, your mind, everything. And the recovery from these big efforts is really long. It doesn't take a week. It doesn't take two weeks. And like Tony said, you got a surplus that process it emotionally, even. And then, you know, sort of zoom out and be like, OK, watch what can I do next or whatever it is. I also think it's just so important to separate or my opinion, all athletes should do this. It's we run for various reasons, but you got to separate your ego from outcome. And you've got to, first of all, just love what you're doing purely because it's the, in my opinion, it's the most raw expression and the most pure expression of freedom. And if you can do that and be happy doing that and just be happy running, you know, the time is a lot. Yeah. You know, yeah, that's awesome. I think all of you guys have like these different things that you are learning along the way. And I think even now it's nice to hear and for you to say like, oh, you know, the five years that went into the build up to CCC for Tony. And I mean, you worked with Tony. Tony, I think you're running kind of your race pulled up was actually probably even longer than that. I'm sure there were years of sports going on before that. It's not just this like overnight miracle that takes place. And Brinnell, I know even with your move and what you were doing here, what you've done in the UK, like each of you have got stuff that you're learning along the way. And I think just like athletes make mistakes and then see coaches full guidance, like coaches also make mistakes. And that's actually something I wanted to chat about purely from like a learning point of you. Like I think all of us can make mistakes. And if we can talk about it, then that's awesome. And what, yeah, like in this whole journey with you guys working with your athletes, what would you say maybe is the, I don't want to say biggest mistake isn't it has to be like horrific, but you know what I mean? Like, yeah, what's been one of the bigger mistakes that you've made and how have you kind of pivoted away from that and learn from it? I guess, I mean, there are few. I think, yeah, mistakes sounds harsh, but I think they're all learning opportunities. I think personally starting with a really small group of athletes and being able to throw everything at it and then trying to scale that without adjusting how much of myself I put into it. So trying to learn to create a bit of a separation between myself and my athletes success and not ride every roller coaster because you know, if you go to a race and you have two athletes running, you really, you know, it's quite stressful. You go to a race and the CIT CT, we're going to have 37 athletes running. Oh, my word. Wow. They are going to be incredible days and they're going to be hard days and years of that has left me pretty tired. I went like, so I think finding that balance of being there, being fully there for the athlete while creating the necessary boundaries for it to be healthy, personally. And then in the practical sense of coaching, I think it's an ongoing cycle of tweaking and adjusting an approach. Yeah. Being open to new ideas while sticking with what you know works and has proven itself and knowing when to test that and when not to an athlete who are ready for it. Yeah. So not necessarily a mistake, I guess, but I think there's a constant feedback loop of, did this, this happened, we adjust that happened, repeat for eight years. That's crazy. Eight years. That is like, yeah, I don't know. I guess seven officially has left rock that eight. Yeah, but eight years of coaching, that's like, that's a lot of experience. It's a lot of people. I'm sure you haven't kept track of how many people and you've worked with them the years. I have a lot of people to say. You really? Yeah. It's not actually that way. I must say we have a pretty good, like athlete retention. So they are athletes, a good number that have been there since pretty much day one. No, wow. So which is so happy with that. That's cool. That's awesome. That is a great sign. That's awesome. Brandon. No, mistakes. It's definitely a mistake. Probably a personal one is ignoring my body signs telling me that this is enough. And I revert back to stress and I am a workhorse naturally. When I get working on a project, I go to 24 hours, hard and I don't stop. And at a stage, my body is saying to me, listen, but you need to take a step back. Otherwise, something is going to give and something did give. And I've finally learned to be a bit kind to myself and be like, listen, you are stressed out. Take it easy. Yeah. And on a, I mean, it was, I've done it before and I've said this before to turn you in here and at one stage when I was training for CCC and she was a kind of a remembranage or 2022. I think. Yeah. I thought I was gymwormsly in Europe. So I thought I could go out there in the Swiss Alps and do a hundred mile a week and 10,000 meters of votes and I'd be OK. And I wasn't OK. I went into CCC completely tired and short. And then stupidly I came back South African. I was like, well, maybe I should go max here is 70 K like two weeks later. That is well. And it wasn't the best idea. So I've learned to accept that I'm not unbreakable. And I have taken what I've learned and put that into my coaching and managing my athletes a lot better. From a practical coaching experience right in the beginning of my coaching career, I think I made that mistake as well. I thought volume was the answer, you know, big weeks, like massive weeks. And you learn that a lot of time less is more and also being smarter with training. So, you know, there's absolutely nothing wrong making you actually do a climbing session on the bike. There's a very great transfer and biomechanical quality. He's from the bike to power hiking. So yeah, these are the mistakes I've made and learned from. And I like to think that to make me a well-rounded coach now. I know there are going to be a lot of athletes of Brennan's having a good giggle, but I'm sure he's told them all the insured and he shouldn't. Yes. Good to hear him being honest about him. He's like trust me, I've tried. It's not good. It's like parenting. You like doing that? Yeah. It's like being there. Being there. I don't know. I don't think you would ever be asked for him plus 20%. So, Brennan was the first guy to sign up for the, I'm running a platter clip after showering. I'm totally sorry. Tony's recording. You've done it. I actually think. Another remember what I thought I was a hero and Aaron used to give me a session where we do a 5K. He will repeat from the bottom of Constantinics, the top dams. And I thought, okay, and I actually bumped into Tony on that day. I just used the initiation in Constantinics and I did the session, I did it three times. I really did. Study case of he'll try. And now we were on the plan, one or two minutes. Yeah, I think one. Oh, I thought so. Yeah. Like, like, needless to say, we're meeting that. Yes, I think it confirms that your coaches are humans. Yes. They are ever trying to separate the athletes off from the coach. Neum. What do we say? Push the limits so that you don't have to. Yeah. Yeah. I love that. That's awesome. Yeah. I mean, I would probably say my personal mistake has been very something to Brandonson in that I probably last year was the biggest wake up call. I had just moved to a new country. I was doing a lot of traveling within Europe, but then I also did a trip to Cape Town and it was a lot of time traveling, a lot of time on my feet. There were a lot of media commitments that I had at that stage. And I was still trying to do, you know, my full volume of training and just not accounting for that life stress that comes with all of that. And, you know, the fatigue from travel and the media obligations, all of that is really exhausting as well. And I got back from that trip to Cape Town and I was first erased Transylcania, the marathon, the so it's last year, last year. And I went into that race, injured just because I completely ignored all of the warning signs that I was not okay and just tried to push through thinking that it would be fine, that it was nothing and it wasn't, it wasn't nothing. It wasn't fine. It led to a string of injuries that kept me out for way longer than I wanted to. But yeah, just like Brendan, it's like realizing that you are human and that you have to listen to your body and signs that it sends you. And yeah, I think for me that's translated into really, you know, really emphasizing the recovery aspect of training with my athletes is, you know, if life is really stressful, cut the run back, you know, get out and do it. It'll probably make you feel better, but you know, if things are really crazy, just cut it back, do 15 minutes, if that's all you have time for. But, you know, adjust your plan based on what's going on because I think life stress is huge, a huge part of why people get injured. Yeah. And also just lose the love of the sport. I think if you try and force it too much when things too much is going on, it's, you know, motivation drops off real quick. So, yeah, I guess probably the other thing that I've maybe made the mistake on is not trusting people enough with what they're capable of in the sense of doing the volume. I tend to be more conservative, which I think is always the bit. better approach, but sometimes I think that's also to my detriment, but also to the athletes that I coach, sometimes they're asking for more volume and I get nervous giving it because I know what's going on in their lives, but I also need to try some more often that they are capable, you know they are, but it's just kind of walking that fine balance of what is enough, what is too little and making sure that that's just sustainable balances. For me, probably the hardest line that I have to walk. Yeah, that's amazing. Yeah, I think, and as you guys have mentioned, every person is different and how they might handle something in a certain phase in the year versus in a different life phase, like you mentioned being a dad, like that's, I mean that's like a whole lot of other streets that can just kind of come out of nowhere. Yeah, I think also having, it seems like none of you are afraid to have that chat of like, you know, on paper you were maybe really unprepared, but looking at the last few weeks and the danger you could potentially put yourself in, like let's just not do this race now, like there's lots of these types of races and there's only one of you. Yeah, I think the long-term trend or I guess I've been focusing in on a little bit more lately is athletes like being very, very realistic with their capacities and Tony mentioned being afraid to maybe do too much and understandably so. I think when you find that sweet spot of what an athlete is able to do week on week on week and recover from and find that balance that's usually where the magic happens for what they can do. Maybe that's someone with a full-time job and that's four sessions a week and that's all they can do. But if they can hit those four, they're much better than the six and the two they must that way on them that they didn't get to achieve. So yeah, I think the constant pursuit of finding that balance is potentially even greater than sports science and sports performance because once that's figured out, then you can optimize. Yeah, finding that balance is huge. Yeah. That's cool. And I think that also comes as you guys have all mentioned, like working with someone for a long time. I think it's so hard in the first few weeks, you're still getting to know the person, they're not just their rhythms and routines, but like what makes them tick, what motivates them, how much tough love they can take and when you need to be kind of, yeah. Yeah, and we, we, we, we, we might not lean into that tough love unless we're confident it's who we deal with. Right. Yeah. Like, fine line. You don't want to be too hard too early, I guess. Yeah, and then with that, with that finding that load, it's, it's tricky because you want, you need to just much volume as you possibly can. Like that's quite a wild statement, but the difference between a five-care athlete and a marathon athlete, they're both in 100 mile weeks. So what changes between a marathon athlete and 100 mile athletes, they're not all of the setting doing way more. So you're dealing with people with these restrictions because when they're, for the jojillo athletes, they are mid-pack, full-time, something else, not athlete and have to balance. So what's the most we can fit in and, and repeat finding that, that number for them? Yeah. So interesting. I think I'm learning a lot as we, as we're sitting here and time is flying and I wanted to also get your guys thoughts. It's really fun to hear from people about what they think of the future of the sport, especially from people who are shaping it and I think it's coaches and athletes. You guys all have a role in that, but, and trail running is booming. I couldn't believe it. I haven't run at a group run in Cape Town in a few years and from the first Tuesday trails I ever joined to last night, I was like, what are the, there's many people that run in the city. But what, what are each of you most excited about when it comes to the future of the sport? For me, I think, you know, what's, what's, what's quite exciting is getting more people into from an accessibility point of view. So I mean, I would love to see more East Africans smashing trails. And I know, you know, in the sport sciences, we have nature and nurture and our athletes are sort of developed through that and a lot of the culture in East Africa, you know, is marathon runners and things like that. And this is a wild, a wild statement, but imagine like an Elliott Kupchogi coming rocking up at CCC having trained for it like a trail runner. Yeah, okay. The depth of talent we have in countries that are, like we would left out is unreal. And I think that's exciting. We see it in the golden trails here. We've got the Kenyans right up front, they, you know, pushing boundaries and I think it's super exciting to know that the is still scope for that to happen in longer races. You know, that's that's my opinion on that one. Nice. Yeah, I guess differently true. I think there's going to be a continuous boom of talent and records are going to be fall in force many, many years to come. It's I think one of the unique sports where the athletes come into it come from such a diverse background. You have roadrunners, you have traffic leads, you have adventure races, you have all kinds of things. It's fascinating from a, I guess, physiology point of view to see the different types of bodies that excel in the space and even within trail, you're climbing, you're running able routes, you're taking coroutes, all those things, lend themselves to different kinds of people. I had a chat with Simon Eval who you have had on your podcast and had a listen and we had an interesting chat about his looking at metrics within the trail world and like what can we use to measure and make sense of the sport scientifically and make sort of that data accessible to coaches and it was fascinating to conversation and for me, I think that's probably what I'm most excited about currently is what comes out of some of those papers that he's doing and us for scientists around the world kind of, yeah, making sense of the sport that is not flattened and tidy like the road is. Yeah. And the metrics that we can be better equipped to help our athletes. Yeah, it's very exciting. Yes, I'm glad that there's the sign side. You want to see that to be like, I'm not sure. Yeah, that's huge. I think that's really been left out. You know, we've had to work with the scraps of the road running world and the track in the world and make sense of it and bring it across. So to have some actual real usable data will be really exciting. Tony, a bit of both of those honesty, I think, you know, having, I was a bit of a guinea pig for season C this year. I had like a temperature, core temperature pull at swallowed. We had like stride pods, so a measure of power. There was someone measuring like ambient humidity and temperature throughout the race. So we have a lot of data. Aaron, I should send that to you when if I ever get any of it. Of course. So I'm very excited to see, you know, how they translate all the information that they are gathering because people are doing, you know, all this data is getting gathered. So I'm excited to see how that translates into usable information first implement as athletes and as coaches. And then again, on the diversity, you know, we see it slowly starting, but there's still so much work that we can do in kind of creating a more inclusive space within the trial running world within South Africa within the global stage. But I think specifically is only in on a group. I'm really excited to see the woman in the sport grow. I think it's a space that's still underrepresented. I think, you know, you to be this year did a good job at getting more women at the start line, but there was still, I'm going to get this number wrong. I think it was 12% overall versus the men, which is better than the 9% last year, but it's still not good. But I think, you know, with the growth in the number of female inspirations within the sport, you know, Courtney Katie Shied, Ruth Kraft, Engel Casperson, I think there's a lot of women within the sport that are inspiring women to step up to the plate and trust in themselves and be confident in their abilities. And I think, you know, more and more, we're going to see women stepping up to the plate and taking up a bigger share of that start line, but also women being confident in their abilities and, you know, going for the records that they don't think were possible or setting an FKT where no one got it could be done. Like, I think there's a lot of space in the sport still for women to do incredible things and I'm very excited to see that happen. Yeah. And I think the part of the whole growth of chill running is like this professionalization of the sport you're seeing insane media coverage leading up to events. And I know I mean, Tony and Brynn and you feel the pressure, I think of that media coverage more than kind of the average athletes and there's prize money, FKTs and also the, I think the women turning the line, you, it's almost an extra layer of pressure because you've made it there and you also want to be kind of paving the way for more women to make it there. I feel like there's that extra layer. Kind of thoughts on that and how the sport is growing in that way. Do you guys view it as like a positive thing? Do you feel like it's maybe creating some unrealistic expectations for athletes when they race based on they're seeing like the shiny flashy as opposed to the kind of the hard things? I don't think I've seen many videos of people taking their football for anything or growing up because their nutrition's not working. So yeah, thoughts on that. I think it's a good thing. I think I mean, as a coach in the industry, it's a very good thing. I think as long as the events are structured in a way that does ensure the health of the participants, I think there's a bit of a risk there with especially in your longer altruism, where you have series of races that put people doing distances that might not be healthy at that kind of frequency through the year, but I think if as long as we're able to keep the sport clean and put the health of the athletes first, I think it's a positive. Nice. Paul's printed. Yeah, I mean, I was thinking it's a positive. I think our athletes, especially our top performers deserve to be paid for what they do. Like I said, the cost of running CCC competitively is high, not just on your body but it's a financially, and it's good that our athletes are getting paid for this and that they can be full-time athletes. And from as sport grows and as there is more coverage, there's more interest from the public, which means more money does get injected into the sport's shirt, but I think there's a so fine line. And I think we have to be careful of not making the sport so commercial that it loses its essence. Yeah. Trail runners are by, well, we mostly very grounded, what we like to be seeing is very grounded humble people. I know there are some exceptions, but yeah, I think if if the sport can grow and our athletes can be rewarded for the work that they're putting in, but remaining humble, I think it's a great thing. Yeah. I mean, I agree with everything that's been said, I think it's a really good thing. The more people that can see the sport and be inspired by the sport, the more people that get out into, you know, if they don't, not running races, they're at least getting out into the trails, which I think, you know, as a society, we need people getting outside more. So I think that's a really positive thing. And I also think, you know, with this sport profession, like becoming more professional, obviously with that comes, you know, a lot of media obligations and series that you have to participate in, it becomes a much bigger beast. And I think there will be athletes that fall into that category, but I don't think, you know, the the dirtbag and the essence of what trail running started from gets lost on that. I think that becomes a safe space that's potentially less intimidating for people who don't necessarily want to do the big commercial UTMBEs golden trail series, Sky Running World series, you know, they don't want to be part of that machine. They want to just still do the sport and enjoy the small grassroots community events. I think they can live side by side. I don't think it has to be one or the other. But I still think I, you know, I agree with Bren and 100 percent, like it can be, it can still be a UTMBE event that maintains the essence of trail running, being connecting to nature, being eco-responsible, being about the community and the people and the volunteers and the space that you're in. It doesn't have to be one or the other. And I think they're people in the sport who are working to make sure that that integrity is held intact. And, you know, hopefully we see that that grow in a sustainable and positive way. I think too many sports have veered off par and kind of lost their essence. And, yeah, I think that they're enough good people in our corner that won't let trail running do the same. So I'm super excited about it. I think more people who see the sport, the better. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's awesome. I think I heard I can't remember who I was interviewing, but they were in James Montgomery. He's like, you won't put it in but I live just outside of Chamonix and every year, like thousands of people arrive to come and race and then you still get like people who are hiking through and they're like, what are you all doing here? And it's like in our world, we like, this is the biggest weekend of the year, but it's actually still such a niche like sports. And I think that's a nice reality check. It's like it matters, but there's also like a whole world going on outside. Yeah, I think final final question for me for each of you and again, just a bit of a more personal thing is what is a a dream in the trail space that each of you have? What's what's up next? So what's what's going to happen? Hopefully for each of you, yeah, if you could take a dream off the list. Yeah, I actually, Aaron. I'm here for actually Aaron. I would love to be joined down again. I'm going to leave that very open ended as to what's going on might be because we have to figure out what what the old wheels can do. So yeah, and I think coach Aaron, I think just continuing on the trajectory that we've had. I think it's been really positive and a good space. And I think if we can keep doing this the way we've been doing it going forwards, it's enough for me. Brandon. For me, definitely have unfinished business at CCC. When I did it, I had a terrible experience, bummer and fault. So I'd like to go back there, consa, when we could have to qualify. But definitely unfinished business at CCC and they know would still love to one day when I'm ready to take off 100 miles. So they still have curiosity that's there for that. And personally, I just want to keep growing as a human being, but just as a coach, I want to learn more, keep learning. I still think that there's so much in our sport that's untapped. And there's still so much that still needs to be learnt. And I'm very, very keen to dial into that. And also when I have a family. So that's another personal goal. All that's the next generation of traders. I love us. Well, I'm not dreaming of having a family. I need to ask you. No, I think my dreams are, Leskoll are oriented. Race school are oriented and more about seeing the sport grow in a way that I would be proud to leave behind. So I think for me, my goal would, and it's probably quite lofty. And at this point, I have no idea how it would happen. But I would love to be able to mentor a group of girls, young girls who potentially come from country or a different sport, but really help foster their love for the outdoors and trails and getting them to experience potentially races in South Africa. And at some stage, potentially races in New York, if they wanted to pursue that. I think South Africa has so many incredible trails. And it's not that well accessed by the majority of South Africans. And I've already helped start a group of organization called the trails axi and they help get kids from the townships onto the trails. I think they're trying once a month to do it. But you know, we're working mainly with boys at the moment. And I would love for us to have more girls get involved. And I think that would be my big dream is to take that concept. But focus really on clustering. Growing girls confidence to get out of the trail and to believe that they're physically able to do something like that. So yeah, big lofty goal dream, but hopefully something can happen with that. You'll do it, Tony. I'm like, you'll do it. Yeah, and same for you guys. Guys, thank you for your time. This has been so cool. I am very impressed if we managed to get all four people in one room, I have to say, or at least Tony virtually, but yeah, I think it's amazing to hear your guys background, your experience, how you've come together. I don't know how you like respect your craft and the athletes coach process is really amazing. So I think with coaches like you guys out there, there's great. Yeah, I hope for the future of the sport, which is awesome. Go, thank you for having us and I'm looking forward to what episode three of this looks like. Yeah, in a couple years time. It's going to be awesome. Yeah, I'm like, I wonder if we'll ever run out of stuff to talk about, but every time I chat to someone, I'm like, I don't think so. There's too many dreams. I've been to hold myself back a few times. Yeah, it's like 20 years and I love it. Awesome. Thanks guys. Thank you so much. (upbeat music)