The Weight of the Navy Cross | Nick Jones | Ep. 467

Michael just informed us that he's quitting no it was a really long runway though yeah I gave you a super long runway well I just January oh he isn't gonna go back to school and pursue his own life which I deeply and fully support so however we need to do a Friday episode we should probably do that tomorrow after class oh yeah obviously we'll open discussing that of course do you see the picture that I posted that somebody made with AI of you crawling towards the bell and buds it's pretty good though I don't know what AI is for but I want it to be mostly for that yes yeah yeah yeah so you used to be a Montana resident I did how did you find your way to Montana fantasized about Montana for a long time when I was in Marsoc I put together this whole training package me and the team we wanted to come out here and train in like Helena area there's the Fort Harrison then they got the Limestone Hills training area and then I contacted somebody in Butte actually they had this like awesome um mountain warfare stuff so anyways put together this really cool package submitted it up to hire and they denied us and they said this was in 2019 and they said hey uh you're not going to be fighting in the mountains you don't need to go do this mountain warfare training I was like but we're deploying to either Afghanistan or Iraq again I'm pretty sure there's mountains in both areas that we're in also how did they know you're not going to be fighting in the mountains well this it comes back into play because sure as January 2020 they get deployed to Northern Iraq yeah and then March 8th 2020 get in the the big gunfight and it was in the middle of a mountain range and so I was a very arrogant element leader and was like hey could have used that training I uh that is a true statement yeah I mean it wouldn't have hurt it right yeah but so fantasized about it for a long time they denied the package so I brought my wife out instead and we spent 10 days in Bozeman uh she was my parent at the time proposed her on top of Lone Peak down there in Big Sky and said hey in 10 years when I retire I think this is where we should make a family so everything happened and I we sped it up about nine eight years eight nine years yeah so it was uh yeah we bought like right before covid made everything super super expensive so we got in the market a really good time and in Bozeman and then moved into three forks stayed in Montana for almost five years and then wound up down in Wyoming what made uh what made you guys start looking outside of Montana looking more at Miami we weren't looking it's hilarious we just bought this place in three forks 10 acres beautiful home built our like our dream gym in the basement like that was my wife's thing like I need my gym we had this sauna and it was it was so cool and then we were doing this golf tournament for the non-profit that I run Talon's reach down in Jackson we this was our second year going down there super successful and when we were there I I remember the day before I think I was training for an Iron Man a half Iron Man up in Coeur d'Alene and was riding through the town I was like I could never live here too many tourists don't like it told my wife that like there's no way we would live here well on the drive home she starts breaking down and was like I don't like Montana I don't have friends I don't have a community there like we're now 40 minutes from Bozeman and I don't have what I like and she's like I want to move to Jackson I was like no no way I have friends and family there we so we fell into a really amazing really tight-knit community there and but they like would travel to Bozeman every now and then I'm like well we'll see them she's like no but it's not the same and so that's a tough spot to be in husband yeah and we've got a shield before uh in September four-year-old daughter and then I look at her and I'm like well we're home every night we have no friends there everybody's 10 to 20 acres apart which was my my dream but as a you know man I can do that I'm killing gophers and doing the stuff that I like to do and uh but then I'm looking at them I'm like well you're right like she doesn't have friends now she's like she knows every my daughter knows more people in town than I do it's insane she'll be like that's so-and-so's dad that's so-and-so I'm like that's now it makes me the whole family is complete now and it feels great so okay that's good yeah it's just very expensive when you say Jackson you mean Jackson Hole yes is it I was gonna say as expensive as you hear ridiculous well hopefully the timing pre-covid into Bozeman helped with that a little bit it did yeah so yeah and that like helps us out man like we we would not be in the position that we're in right now to be able to even buy so we just closed down a house and uh yeah it's it's pretty wild we were almost about to fall into the same pattern we did in Bozeman where we moved 40 minutes outside of town to get like my dream more land bigger house something like that but we're like no like let's sacrifice it's maybe it's a stepping stone and we'll we'll get in the market yeah buy this house we'll build the family out and then see where we go from there so the 40 minutes out of town I know what you're talking about the only thing better than 20 acres separating your neighbor is 200. yeah or 2000. yeah but the 40 minutes out of town dream sucks when you forget butter at the grocery store right yes or you know what I mean you have to do one little thing yeah you can't skip it and you really don't want to do 80 minutes round trip yeah yeah yeah I can get that man had you not found that community in Jackson how long do you think your wife would have just stuffed it down the unhappiness I don't know I think it was building faster than I I could like actually see I was kind of blinded by fast-paced life and doing things I like to do and yes and then it hit and I was like oh it's been here for a while and I didn't didn't really see it so sounds like a real fun car ride yeah yeah it was uh it was it was interesting some road miles some windshield time if you will to think about things yes yeah we hadn't even been in that house seven months eight months by that point where she brought that up so I was like wow we're gonna lose hardcore on it but we actually somehow came out on top because we finished finished the basement remodeled everything yeah yeah so what are you doing now I know we'll get it obviously into the non-profit what are you doing professionally how do you spend your time these days yeah so that was actually by the I don't know Gracie God you could say when after my wife hit me with that um she I was like okay we'll think heavily on it I got a phone call from one of our supporters for the foundation and he said hey there's this uh Jacksonville shooting experience that's coming up for sale business opportunities like I think you should look into it it's it's a cool thing um and I was like dude I don't know how I can barely even keep my head above water running this non-profit I don't know how I'm gonna buy a business and run a business he's like just talk talk to some mentors that you got down there because I got a really good mentor and uh basically father figure down there that took me in and my wife in and I called him and I told him about he's like do it he's like don't even don't even like worry about you know how he's like like we'll help you however like just do it and figure it out afterwards he's like that he's because you know so I I'm not much of a reader I'm I was in the Marine Corps I had a very hard time reading easy enough crayon jokes as there is don't make them yourself so let the rest of us make it so I listen to audiobooks and I've downloaded your book and uh which it's amazing by the way uh I don't thank you I don't recommend books from seals hardly ever nor do I don't don't share yeah there's not that many of them so it's it's like which one do you choose for there's only like three right per week yes per week yeah and so I was like I've actually I've recommended it to several buddies especially entrepreneurs and guys in the lifestyle in the trenches like trying to build stuff because what you said in there like the one of the hardest parts is taking that first step but even even after that first step is like like kind of completing that step um and so he was like just step into it and you will start running and sure shit like went through the due diligence and was like this is a really cool opportunity um never had a for-profit business I've never been to business school don't know anything really about doing that stuff so I just said screw it I'm gonna I'm gonna try it so I I we bought the company and we've owned it since January and now it's like it's a very seasonal thing like it Jackson Hole gets very busy but it's insane how many tourists want to come do this it's a high ticket price I'm assuming I mean Jackson Hole I have never been that I know of yeah passed through today's episode of the podcast is brought to you by black rifle coffee guess what time it is it's fall do you know what that means? Well, unfortunately for me, that means that pumpkins are all over my house because my wife loves fall. It's her favorite season. Halloween is her favorite holiday, even though I'm pretty sure it's not a holiday. But anywho, it's time for pumpkin spice, right? Pumpkin spice lattes, pumpkin spice cold brews, pumpkin spice glizzies, whatever you may be into. And if you head over to BlackRifleCoffee.com right now, guess what it is you're going to see? Pumpkin spice. You can shop pumpkin spice. Let's take a look at this. Looks like you can get it in the ground form and in K-cups. Of course, this is an LTO or limited time offer. If that doesn't do it for you, just click up on the top left here. Coffee and drinks. What's that going to lead you to? Everything else on the site that you have the ability to buy from BlackRifleCoffee. They have merchandise and they just did a new drop. It's an MB1 or Mike Bravo 1 drop. So it is an updated look at the SKUs they're offering for t-shirts, sweatshirts. I'm looking at a Nalgene bottle. All of their roasts are right. There you can join their ECS, which is the exclusive coffee subscription. Last month was the Royal Elk Founder Roast. Delightful. You can join their regular coffee subscription, their t-shirt subscription, all of those things. Basically, if you like coffee, if you don't hate your life and you like pumpkin spice glizzies, head over to BlackRifleCoffee.com. Back to the show. Winter sports, huge there, right? Yes. And then same summer, you do the same, probably similar to the three forks. You got your fishing, rafting. Yeah. Outdoor and then very sloppy. Maybe intermediate systems where it's just raining. It's mainly the park, Grand Teton National Park and Yellowstone National Park. That is the main thing in the summer that brings people in. You would think that it would be busier in the winter because Jacksonville Mountain Resort's right there. But it's very clear how busy it gets in the summer. I mean, people, the prices get jacked up. Astronomically, it's insane. So they had warned me. It's like June 15th. Once June 15th hits, you're not going to breathe until September. And I mean, it's been very busy. Do you have to make your yearly in that time period though? Pretty much. Okay. Yeah. That's tough. It is. And so we've got instructors. They're very seasonal, but they need a living then. So they're cranking it out. I mean, we were slammed, which made me feel better because the buildup, April and May, we're almost done. We're almost like nothing. And I'm like, holy crap. I don't know if this was the right decision. I'm second guessing everything. And then it started kicking off. I was like, all right, this is cool. And now if I can plug in and figure out how to grow the slower months and get the skiers out there when they're sore or something like that, then we'll build revenue all year round. So what does it offer? The summer month people, when they can get the full experience, what are they coming for? It's a, so our main like bread and butter is this three hour, shooting experience. We call it our multi-gun experience. So I, I set up, just built this gun wall, like kind of, I mean, not like this, but there's like slat walls and there's all sorts of guns hanging on there. And we've got this systematic approach for the three hours that we have. We basically start with, start with a safety brief. And then we start into 22 rifles, get people comfortable shooting those, then maybe move to 22 pistols. And then like kind of just mix and match until we get all the way up to shooting out to 600 yards with, with precision rifles, and then we've got these dessert menu items. We've got a Barrett 50 Cal, we've got, uh, like the fully autos and stuff. Yeah, dude. And people eat it up. It's so cool. Like you get these New Yorkers or people from Chicago, never touched a gun, barely ever seen a gun or from California. And they're like, this is the cool, a lot of international people. Yeah. Like it's, it's really cool, honestly, for them. Very lucrative. Yeah. Very lucrative, uh, business idea. Honestly. I love it. I hope you guys are wildly successful. It's funny. It's funny too, depending on what trajectory your life has taken, you can be so become so accustomed to being around that stuff that you can't fathom how people would like you in your off time, you went and paid to shoot a Barrett 50 Cal. Right. Like I would pay you to not have to lug that thing around and carry it. You were shooting full auto. Like, ah, you like picking up brass that much. Yeah. Right. Yeah. Yeah. It's just, I mean, the optic is a different, like I said, where you came from, man. Yeah. The seasonal business is tough. Yeah. The coffee shop, the, the beauty is coffee is coffee. We sell a difference in hot or cold depending on the season. And we, we have far less people coming into the shop in the winter. It's just the holding capacity of town. But yeah, we have probably a, I'll say three at the beginning. It's a slow on-ramp and a slow off-ramp. So in that three to four, four months, it peaks somewhere in the middle, but it's, it's kind of the same thing. You gotta, what's the saying? Make hay while the sun's out. Yeah. You do the best you can, man. Yep. Yeah. How'd you find your mentor? Um, so he started out as this, he, he hates when I say this stuff, but so he owns some restaurants in Bozeman and in Jackson hole. He was a Marine F I was telling you on the, on the way walk over here, uh, F4 Rio. And he built a restaurant back in the eighties and started with one and just continued to progress up and commercial real estate and yada, yada, yada. Well, when I got to Bozeman, I was in a super bad place. I like, I tried to go out to community events to meet people. And, but I was also trying to build this nonprofit. So I knew that I had to, and they were like, you got to meet this guy, Joe Rice. Like he, he, he's a Marine veteran. He loves supporting Marines or any veterans in general. And I was like, no, man, like I, he's not going to want anything to do with me. And I would doubt myself all the time. And then finally, like somebody was, I needed a sponsor for this, the gala that we were running. And I was like, I'll, I'll try to set up a meeting with him, gave him my pitch. And it was like, he supported within seconds. I was like, wow, that was easy. So after the gala, he approached me again and was like, Hey, I want to keep supporting, like we're going to, we're going to sponsor the next one and help with the food. I was like, that's a huge help. Very apprehensive to like, you know, continue reaching out. Cause I was like, I don't know how this donor relation goes, you know? So I was still learning everything, but then he invited us out to his place in Jackson hole. I took my wife out there for her birthday and it slowly started to become like this, um, friend. And then he he's got three daughters. They're all my age and my wife's age. So then we started seeing them. And then I just slowly started reaching out to him and was like, Hey, like I have questions about this stuff. And the response was so easy that it was like, it was unquestionable that this guy was committed to, to helping me, not just the nonprofit, but like be my, my mentor. And, um, I had some, some pretty big family issues happen. Um, don't talk to my dad anymore. And like, not saying that I was trying to replace that by any means, but it was treated me like a son and it felt good, you know? And, um, so then I would, I would go to him or even with all the hard stuff in life. And I'd be like, Hey man, like I I'm, I'm struggling right now with this. And then he would give me these fatherly advice or business advice. And next thing, you know, it's like, now I've, I've got this guy I can rely on. And I felt like it was kind of the same in the military, trying to find those people that like the influential leaders that you could tell were going in the right path. That it's like, at first you're kind of hesitant to ask for help with fricking with anything in life. Yeah. And then once you do, and you feel how truly easy it is and how people actually want to help you, it just became so natural. And now it's, um, it's been pretty, pretty great. Like I couldn't imagine trying to do things on my own without a mentor like that. I was going to ask you if you hadn't have found him or developed that relationship, who do you think you would have asked those questions to Fletcher? I don't know. Fletcher probably got some dope answers though. You can't see him off camera, but, I love dogs. He's a lab of some kind. Is it a chocolate lab? Yeah. Chocolate lab. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. He's full. Labs are the best. American lab. Yeah. They are the most loving chill. We have a miniature dachshund who sometimes will assume that position. Michael knows this well too. 99% of the time though, he's a roving psychopath. 1% of the time. He actually does sleep quite a bit though. Doesn't he? He has these bursts. He's just like, ah, ah. So we just, we put a deposit down on another one because we think he needs a friend. Yeah. His name is Javelin based off of my favorite weapon system. Yeah. The other one's name is Beans. Beans. I was trying to tell my wife, I'm like, listen, the only thing that pairs well with a Javelin is a Carl Gustav. Yes. And she just looked at me and said, no. And it was one of those facial features where I said, okay. Yeah. Because I could tell, because I really wanted to push it. Yeah. Because what would be more dope than having your wife, standing in front of your house as the dogs are running amok and she's Javelin Carl. And only I understood how awesome. Yes. Oh yeah. Then I had to explain to her what a Carl G was and how horrible it is for the tissue lining of your heart. And she's like, why would you want to name a dog that I'm like, I don't know. I just, one's named after a fire and forget heat-seeking missile. Why can't we have another one? Right. Recoilist. Yes. Yeah. Highly concussive. Just, oh my gosh. I was, uh, who was I telling? I might've been telling Joe about it. Cause he was asking about, um, we somehow got on the topic of ammo expenditure at the end of the training trips. And he was blown away by the concept of, no, you go and you have to shoot it all. They don't want it back. He's like, he said, what do you mean? I'm like, they line it up and you shoot it all. And I think the manual, yeah, the dump bags. I think the manual on the Carl G is like no more than six per day. Those are rookie numbers. Especially when there's a pallet of Carl G rounds, it's like you stay up there until you can't stay up there anymore. And then you go wonder why you have heart palpitations and you're bleeding out of all your orifices later. Yeah, yeah. It's like, and then you're A-gunning for the next six and then it's like, dude. Not service-related. Yeah, exactly, yep. Yeah, those random nosebleeds, no. I shot a.50 Cal Barrett when I was in Sniper School. So many rounds at our Nyland facility that I got a nosebleed from it. I mean, your face is right in the projectile on those things. There's no joke about the size of one of those cans. Yeah. I don't know if I shot it after that course. I hated that thing. Just the most unwieldy, heavy, let alone if you, it's like heavy enough without the ammo. Yeah. Like, I'm going to take three rounds. That's all I need. Yeah, yeah. They're ridiculous stuff. Yeah. What, how old were you when you fell apart with your dad? My daughter just turned one. It was on her first birthday. Oh, that's tough, man. Yeah, it was. I lost contact with my oldest, so I went through a divorce during COVID as well, too. So why not start a construction project where you're paying out the ass and nose somehow simultaneously? Yeah. And going through that process. And my oldest was the oldest by definition and age. And I think he had, I would say in that, at that time while it was ongoing, I would say he was probably the most impacted by it. And I think that's because his ability to process it, in real time was a little bit more present. Also, he, I think, you know, 16 at the time, hard enough as a young man. Yeah. Their schools are getting shut down, all of those things. But I lost contact with him for about 18 months. And it, it was tough, man. It's, and my, my own father who used to live in Santa Cruz, California, where I was born, slowly coaxed him to coming up here. He lives now a mile from us, which is also a blessing and a nightmare in and of itself, because he's out of his fucking mind. Michael could attest to the crazy stuff that he does. It is a shocking how much you seem to return to being a child. As you age, you start as a child and you end as a child. Yeah, yeah. Journeys through electronics and just a variety of things. But I, man, I can't even fathom how hard that would be to have to get to a place where you're making the call to make that definitive decision. But again, if I'm reading through the lines correctly, I think I would take the same stance that you would. That's a tough one though. Yeah. Yeah. I feel like I gave a couple of ultimatums and said, you know, maybe you and I can have a relationship, but I need answers. I need you to go get help, certain things like that. So set boundaries. Yeah. We'll see if it happens. I'm sure that he listens to all my stuff and I'm sure he's going to hear this. So. If it means it, if it truly means enough, it's easy for people to say, there's nothing I wouldn't do. Right. Show me. Yeah. Right. You know what I mean? If it, if it, if it means to that person, what it means, then you need to live up to that. Yeah. And if you need answers, then provide them. And if you do work on yourself, then do it. Because I think actually not that I'm an expert in any of this, but family dynamics, first off, find me a perfect family. All you gotta do, right. If you look at the family tree, trust me on the branch somewhere, they're like, yeah, that's uncle Bob. Yeah. Uncle Bob is into some weird shit. Let me tell you what. Yeah. So everybody's got some crazy in their family. Yeah. Even in my own family tree. And this is actually a good example. Being there, but not being able to process. One of my last real memories of my grandfather was being at his house and it was around Christmas time. And there was these weird lights that were bouncing off the walls. It was from the sheriffs that he had called to come kick us out of his house. Oh, wow. Because he and my father had had, and this is my father describing this because I haven't had, well, my grandfather has since passed, but they, a very contentious relationship growing up. And there were hardheaded, like German masonry, family, not like it was the smoothest, loving, caring environment that he probably was born into. Yeah. Yeah. Born on, you know, brick and block construction sites, but I was physically there, but not able to process what was really going on. And that was kind of the end of him disowning us as a family, which was fine. We remained really good and close relatives with his brother. So my great uncle and the more I learned the more truly inappropriate decision that my dad had made, but he was the one who had to have those. Boundaries and come to find out the reason that we were there is he was trying to get his mom to come with, which is a concept I didn't understand at the time, which is why his dad called the cops to try to get us out of there. So there, remember it didn't have the grab. I was just like, does this mean like no, no presence or in my idiotic, young Brit, like, I think that really big box over there might be for me to take it with me. That was my, my life and world at the time. And, uh, man, it was family stuff is tough, man, but it's amazing. If it had been a stranger, it's so easy to draw those boundaries, right? Like, oh really? No, get never, I'm not even, but give you that opportunity. But because we share genetics, yeah, we'll just, we'll ignore it. Right. We'll let it happen. Yeah. We'll give you another second chance. The third chance, the hardest to passes. Yeah. Yeah. That's tough, man. I know. I know Fletcher, he's growling. He might move that camera. I can move it. Oh, I don't care. I don't even worry about it. That's Michael's job, which he poorly does. No, he's fine. He might end up, he's fine. It's on the wide angle. I'm sure it's totally fine. Yeah, it's totally fine. Okay. Well, man, I don't wish that on anybody. Yeah. Yeah. It's definitely, definitely some heavy stuff, but you know, looking at my, my family, like I want to do right. My wife and my daughter. And if my wife, you know, she's, she sensed it and stuff like that. So I was like, you know, I got to take action. Like this is what I would do to protect somebody else. So I'm going to protect my family. You can't pick the family that you're born into, but you have to choose what you do with it. Right. Yeah, man. Heavy stuff. Well, I mean, on a lighter note, what does it feel like to get blasted in the shin? Dude. Yeah. I mean, you, yeah, you and I kind of are. Are similar there. I just say 10 out of 10. Don't recommend. Yeah. Not at all. Yeah. You know, it's like, it was funny because right leg, left over here, you could, you could still drive kind of. Yeah. Yeah. Well, yeah, I could for sure. Yeah. You're just going to don't do it left footed. Yeah. That's dude. It was the most awkward thing reaching over. It was, it was strange. Um, did it go through the shin bone? No. So actually. I heard some of your story about yours, like I'm pretty sure when I got hit, like I, they classified as a gunshot wound, but I'm pretty sure that it like ricocheted off the rock right there next to me. So thank God, or maybe not because it penetrated my shin and then severed like in all of these little shrapnel wounds in there, uh, my superficial peroneal nerve. Okay. Which like almost immediately gave me this. They thought that it was compartment syndrome because my legs swelled up, got really dark. Really? So they thought like, oh, it broke my shin or something like that. Cause I couldn't walk almost immediately. Um, and later on I ended up walking up the mountain, but it was very, very painful. Um, later on they found out that it was from the nerve. Like I developed this thing called complex regional pain syndrome and it was, it's like a very rare nerve takes over the sympathetic nervous system. So like, I mean, as woo woo as this sounds, but like if you get angry, sad, depressed, like all of these like anxious, it will literally trigger this symptom in my leg and it will swell. It'll get super painful to this day. No. Okay. No, thankfully. Um, because right now I'm very emotional with this business. It's, it's intense. Um, welcome to the show. Yeah. Yeah. It's yeah. Um, don't worry. It only gets harder. Oh, I bet I could imagine, especially like, you know, family life balance. Like, is there any balance? I don't know, but I'll let you know if I ever figured it out, man. Yeah. Um, but dude, it was the most bizarre thing and they couldn't figure it out for a while because there's not, there's not that many cases that they could kind of balance this off of or, uh, uh, figure this out from. So when they went in, they're like, well, we'll just do an allograft. We'll cut out your nerve. Um, and then put in a cadaver nerve and everything should grow back and it'll be fine. Well, it ended up, um, growing the cadaver nerves. I had like these two strands of the same nerve going out. So there was two cadaver nerves in there. It ended up growing together and creating this huge neuroma. So now I had this like huge ball of this fucked up nerve in my skin that, that made the CRPS even worse. And like, everything was angry. Yeah. - Is this like mid calf to front back? - This is like right in, like right here. Yeah. So like the most painful spot where you shin something. Yes, exactly. Yeah. And like, that's your main sensory nerve in your leg. And so I had a really good plastic surgeon named Dr. Sousa up in, uh, uh, Walter Reed. And so he was like wanting to do all these limb salvage techniques and stuff like that. And I was good with it for a while because I had aspirations to go, um, to another selection. I wanted to do all of these things. I literally told him like, Hey, my T I was only two and a half months in deployment. I get me back out there. I'm ready. Cause like still I was, I, I felt okay. Still ish. Like, I mean, I lost two of my teammates out there that day. And like, it was a super gnarly, uh, intense day, but I wanted to go back. I wanted to redeem it. You know, I felt like that a part of me had failed and I had to get back out. But as soon as this complication happened, I was like, I know I'm, I'm staying here for a while. So he just did more and more surgeries. And then we ended up doing this, uh, this surgery that they're doing for amputees now called a TMR targeted muscle re-nervation. It's, it's pretty wild. So they'll take the nerve and instead of just amputating it and cauterizing it and letting it just like dangle in there, they suture in, um, a muscle. So it'll take a piece of your muscle and suture it onto the end of the nerve, which gives it the home. So now like the, it reduces the phantom limb pains reduces doesn't, doesn't totally negate them. Um, so it's supposed to help because like nerves regenerate at such a slow pace a day. Yes. And it's like, with that comes pain and all of this shit. And if they don't have a place to live or there's no like home for them, it gets, it sends your, like the brain, all these fucked up signals. So they did that. And then. Shit just still went haywire. So I ended up getting a spinal cord stimulator installed to control this pain in my leg, to hopefully kill this CRPS because they called it the suicide syndrome. It's like the pain gets so bad, it can travel to different limbs and all this crazy shit. So I was like, I'm going to do everything I can, you know, and that they swore to me that getting this stimulator, wasn't going to disqualify me from soft. I was still like very determined to stay in. And as soon as they put it in there, my medical officer was like, no, this definitely disqualifies you. You can't jump, you can't dive. You can't, you can't do anything here like that. You have your liability now. So it definitely did rocked my world. Um, how is that having a box installed in your body? It sucked because it was right on my lower back. So like, you know, you're sitting in, uh, these like wooden chairs, like this one wouldn't do it, but like you're sitting in a wooden chair at a restaurant or something. And I go to sit up and it like, we'll catch the edge. It like pulls on it. It was the size of a dip can. I'm not even kidding you. It was huge. So, and I had four leads. So my, my butt looks like I got freaking in a knife fight or like a grizzly, just like scratch my butt cheek off. Neither of those are good options by the way, but right. Yeah. I'm thinking of the most dramatic. Totally. I mean, it's just like so far it's pass and pass on both of those experiences. Yeah. So they shoved the wires in through my glute into my spine to then like be on this side of my dorsal root ganglion nerve system. So it stimulates that whole side of my leg. It worked, I think while it was supposed to, but one day, um, I woke up, I was in extreme pain still. I was on a huge cocktail of medications. Um, and I took the very, uh, direct and extremely not, uh, what would it be recommended route. And I stopped all my medications in one day and I turned off my stimulator, but I substituted all of that with drinking more and smoking more weed or whatever it was. And I was like, this is, if this pain is still this bad with all of these things, these things are going to try to kill me. I might as well just do it myself with these and maybe get back to my own mental capacity. Um, but it, none of that worked and I didn't tell anybody. So I had like these major withdrawals. Thank God I didn't go into any like seizures or anything like that because. Did they have you on gabapentin? They had me on gabapentin. I was, I was actually, I was on gabapentin, amitriptyline and nortriptyline, which are all like these anti-psychotic and, or, um, anti. Seizure. Anti-seizure medication. Exactly. Yeah. One reason I know this because I was on the same stuff. Yeah. I, dude, what you're describing, there are a few people who have experienced that. And for almost a year when I got home, that is what I would deal with when I would try to sleep. I would be distracted during the daytime, but I ended up moving into a different bedroom because I was tossing and turning. And so about a quart of Captain Morgan's would help with Ambien roulette, too hard to say fistful. Just, yeah, I had 13 pill bottles, the same thing. And I, I weaned myself off without telling Navy medicine as well, too. And I, this is actually in the book too. It was, I was at a gas station with my wife at the time and I was driving a Nissan Xterra, which I think had a 10 gallon gas capacity. I mean, I know it's more than that, but this math problem that I was presented with was so galactically simple. And I think gas was maybe $2 a gallon. And the question was around, well, what do you think it's going to cost to fill it up? And I stood there like, I had never seen numbers before and had at least the realization in that moment, like, oh boy, this isn't good. And so I, and I slowly, and the reason I did wean myself off that my sister was a nurse at the time and she had found some drug interactions that the Navy, I was going to say that they didn't find, I'm not sure that they were looking. And I don't say that maliciously because I think they were just trying, okay, what's the symptom? Try this, this, this, this. So yeah, you have pill bottle roulette, which of course, Yeah. alcohol is the only thing to wash it down with. You just turn the label that says the little alcohol warning. You just turn that the other way. Like these are fine. You can drink on all these, not medical advice for anybody listening. There's an idiotic and we're lucky we both survived this to be honest. But she had mentioned it was specifically the gabapentin I was on. I had to sign waivers for the dosages that I was on, which makes you more susceptible to seizures. So if you cold turkey it, even if you don't have seizures, you might all of a sudden start. Right. And so I just titrated myself down from all of that, but it was, it was still another five, six months. That nerve pain will drive you insane. It was unreal. Yeah. I remember you mentioning that ketamine was not a, you were not a fan of ketamine. No, I've had it one time and I told the doc, don't give me any more of that. Yeah. So I had a horrible on my medevac, horrible experience with ketamine. And like, I don't know, you know, there's a cocktail that they say, like, especially with the ranger medics and stuff. I was like, okay, I'm going to go get a Zocum refresher with the 18 deltas. It was really cool. I got two weeks of like prolonged field care and all of this stuff. But anyways, they would talk about this new concoction with ketamine. You want to mix it with Versed to help with this, like this, like PTSD awareness type of thing. It's like, Hey, like if you put them in a K hole, they're going to, they're going to go nuts and not nuts, but like something could happen. If you do the Versed, it's like the men in black. I don't know. I don't know how true it is. But they didn't do that concoction. They just hit me with ketamine and I've like looping with the rotors. Like I could see them. Oh dude. And all of a sudden I get sucked back down into the cave and like my teammates, they're, they're obviously dead, but in my vision, they were dead, but alive yelling at me, telling me, get me out, get me out. And so then I'm like trying to reach down for them as they're yelling at me, but I'm strapped into the litter. So like my arm T-Rex arms, I'm trying to like. Reach. And then next thing, you know, I wake up in the hospital and I'm like screaming. Like, I mean, it was like a movie scene. I'm like, what the fuck just happened? Like, where am I? Like I was just right there. And do you know who Ben Glover is? Yeah. Well, I don't know him, but I know of him. He had a piece of brass in his face and they were going to do emergency surgery. So they hit him with too much ketamine. He said that. So it spit him into the K hole. He lived an entire life. And died of old age. What then came out of it in 15 minutes has passed. And he's like, I still think about that shit. So meaning the experience was so real. Oh yeah. He lived an entire life in 15 minutes. I can't even fathom what you like the blades and being pulled. How does that not create stray wires in your brain in and of what you survived leading up to that? Getting juiced. Yeah, it was nuts, man. Old age. Yeah. Yeah. That's a long, yeah. Yeah. I think he came out of it and they hadn't even started the surgery. Oh geez. Yeah. Wow. Yeah. I ended up, uh, they were, they were telling me, you know, with this nerve pain, part of the only way to help with the pain. Cause Dilaudid wouldn't do it when I was like in or post surgeries. Mm-hmm. Um, so they said we can do ketamine infusions and I was like terrified to do it because I'm like, dude, I don't know. It's gonna throw me off. into this and like, well, it's such a low dose that it's really for pain management. So I tried it and, um, I had actually a great experience. So I would like go do my resets and go back up to Walter Reed for, uh, I would go pre-surgery and then stay for post-surgery to do these ketamine drips. And it would kind of help reset some baseline. So I had had a little bit of breathing room for pain-free for maybe a week. And then I, I hit such a low point right after I stopped all my medications, I called my surgeon and was like, I want to cut my leg off and take this stimulator out of my back. Pain is too bad. I can't do it anymore. I'm going to end it if, if we can't fix it. Um, I was extremely suicidal. Like I was, I was done. Um, had you ever been suicidal up to that point? Um, so it, it was like, uh, it was a very, it was a wavy type of, uh, no, I mean, in your life. Oh, in my life. No, not, not since like before I got shot. Yeah. That's what I meant. Like it was not something that you had, because there are people who, man, I've met a few of these people who will tell you about how they had battled that thought through their teens, barely made it through into their twenties. I can't even imagine that. Yeah. I mean, it's, it's hard enough knowing that I thought about that now because it's like, I mean, shit, dude, I couldn't, I couldn't imagine that like starting out so young. Yeah. And having that thought because yeah, it's, it's, dude, it's scary, honestly. And, you know, I, I know you've talked about it in which, like, I want to say how thankful I am that a person like you uses a platform like that, like that book to say certain things that you did with drinking, with, you know, asking for help and all that shit. Like, I mean, it's amazing because the more people like you, like us that do that stuff, like it's going to give people the, the ability and like the confidence to go ask themselves. Cause I'll tell you what, man, like I didn't think I was the epitome of the guy. I didn't believe in PTSD. Didn't, didn't even, I wouldn't care about human factors. It was like, if you got family issues, if you're not strong enough to do this job, you need to go somewhere else because we've got a job to do. We've got a mission to complete. And like, we don't have room for you to be weak over here. It was so, it was so fucked up. Like I, Where do you think that came from? Like maybe it was from my childhood trying to suppress things that I've been through that like I didn't know about. And you know, I, I, I grew up in Kansas city and just outside of Kansas city in the suburbs there. And like, I feel like I had a decent childhood kind of growing up, but then like learning about different things. I think I got into drugs and alcohol so young because of certain neglect and things like that. And like all these fights and, you know, I lived a very aggressive lifestyle before that. And I was very much like, not, I didn't share my feelings ever. So then when I got into the Marine Corps, it was just like, I know what I'm doing. I'm going to be the hardest dude here. And, you know, trying to, you know, right when you get to prison fighting the biggest dude, it's like, that's how I looked at the Marine Corps. So. Well, again, you know, not knowing a lot about your upbringing, but what you just described, that environment's not going to reward you being probably super in touch with your feelings or wearing them on. Your shirt sleeve. It's going to be the opposite. Yeah. And so, yeah, that doesn't surprise me. I think that could 100% lead you towards that space of maybe less empathetic of what's going on in other people's life. But again, you're a product of the environment that you came up in and through. And I don't know about you, but for me, you know, the more laps I get around the sun, I used to think I had it pretty figured out. I think I peaked at around 22 peak college. Oh yeah. Oh yeah. Definitely. It's the most anyone's ever known about the universe and everything in it. And now at 48, I just sit back and I don't know anything, man. Yeah. You know, when you bring up the book too, about trying to be honest about my experiences, I think one of the biggest mistakes people from the military world specifically in special operations, even though they know it's not true, they can fall for it is this archetype of a superhero that has a shield and bullets bounce off them metaphorically. I don't know about your experience. Um, but in mine, the best operators in the world were still worried about their mortgage. They still had inner family conflict going on. They were still worried about their kids, all the other stuff. And maybe they had a better ability to not let that impact them on the job because the job never suffers, right? The job suffers last mission first, right? You'll all, you'll put yourself in the dirt literally metaphorically to make sure. But at the end of the day, you're not a superhero. Yeah. And I don't think it's smart to think that you're one or try to perpetuate that. And I don't think it's smart for other people to look at that community, not knowing anything about it and think what the, what they're looking at as superheroes, because we're all dealing with versions of the same stuff. And I think it's important to remember that. Yeah. You know, it's funny you say that. And when I read that or listen to it, um, I, after I had received this award, I, I felt like the nation, that's how they were looking at me. And like a very few select people even knew that that happened. Because we should be clear. We're talking about the Navy cross, which is the second highest award. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. It's not a, uh, what are the, I'm trying to think what they was the big award pre nine 11. It was a Navy achievement medal. There was something under that. That was like a certificate of appreciation. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Thanks for coming out. We're not talking about a cocktail. I mean, I'm sure we can get into what happened, but it was unbelievable. And the award, I think is very befitting of your actions that day. Well, thank you. Yeah. It, it was, it was hard because, you know, I kind of, when we were growing up in the community, I don't know about you guys, but like, I mean, in the, in bootcamp, we would like March and talk about valor award recipients, medal of honor recipients. You know, I was in the Navy, right? Oh yeah. Meaning we didn't have, there's the Marine Corps has different fighting environment than the Navy. Not that there hasn't been a lot of honor recipients in the Navy, but you guys had chesty polar. All right. So Dan, and even I know chesty polar and the Navy, which let's be clear, the Marine Corps is in fact the department of the Navy, but they don't have to harp on that fact. It is. I clearly, I openly and clearly say that every single time best uniforms, hand down. Oh yeah. Yes. And then the worst uniforms would be the enlisted bucket of paint hat and whatever. I understand that there's a lot of history that comes from that. Yeah. Utter trash. Yeah. 13 buttons when you're trying to take a piss. Oh my God. Unbelievable. That's what they have. 13. That's the smart people. Cut those out and then put Velcro, but they have the buttons. Oh yeah. There you go. Yep. Heck yeah. But yeah, in boot, I'm just going to say, although I have respect for both, I think Navy bootcamp might be a little easier than Marine Corps bootcamp. Maybe. You guys, man, the Marine Corps product that they produce, legendary. Yeah. Legendary. It is pretty amazing. Like, I mean, I was such a, I was a, I was a wild card before going into bootcamp. And then when I left, I was brainwashed. Yes. But like, I was a totally different person with, with actual like morals and discipline. And like, I was actually making my bed. It was insane. And I still make my bed to this day, which is nuts. I think it's safe to say, and what's interesting too, and we'll just say bootcamp in general, which I, in my opinion is the transition from a me centric world to a we centric environment. The curriculum is so good that depending on where you're coming from and what you need, it kind of provides that like for you, it sounds like you were a little bit absent oversight rules, discipline and boom, it's, it finds what you need and sharpens that knife's edge. It works, man. And it's got something for everybody for sure. I don't care who you are. It's got something for you. Yeah. Yeah. It's like, I don't think we need mandatory service, but right now in this day and age, like there's some fricking, it's some weird going on. I'd be okay with it. I would caveat though, doesn't have to be the military. How about doctors without borders? How about the red cross? You just have to serve something greater than yourself. I would say for two years and even more beneficial, even though I don't think it would be a requirement is if you could do it where you don't live, not necessarily overseas, but go to a different state because then you'd get a different optic in time where you're thinking about something other than yourself as your primary concern. Again, I'm not advocating for it. I don't think it would hurt though. I think it would be net positive. For sure. I agree. Yeah. I learned so much and I mean, it's still, it was hard to see and feel like when talking about transitioning, I know I kind of got sidetracked from what I was going on, but like transitioning, when I thought about defining my life as a Marine and as a special operator, I was like, I'm not going to be good at anything. Like, all I know how to do is kill people. I'm like, wait a second. Like I learned so much from the basics of, you know, the like leadership of being a team player and all of these things. Like there are so many life skills that you learn, even just from the first four years of my career. Like that's kind of what I'm referring back to right now for business development is like, cause some of the special operations stuff is like, we, we operated at a different type of capacity where critical thinking was great, but I still need like basics to figure out how to like lead junior Marines. You know, it's like, I got a, I got a 13 employees now that I have to figure out how to like, mold my lifestyle or mold my leadership styles to, to fit, you know, every single one of them is different. Harder or easier than Marine Corps leadership. Oh my God. It's way harder. So I have, we flow between 20 to 30 employees. Average age is under 22. Almost all are female. You think SEAL platoon leadership is hard? Okay. I'm not saying it was the easiest, but I can tell you something that's a lot harder. Yeah. Oh yeah. Yes. And yeah, people are, oh, you were SEAL. You must know everything about leadership. I know a little bit about leadership. I was exposed to some great and some horrible, but man, those concepts apply that to a non-military world where people are earlier in their life with dreams and aspirations and trajectories. And they know they're only going to be there for six months because it's a stopping point, not a vocation and giddy up. Oh yeah. It's wild. It is, it is absolutely insane. Like the, the level of like complexity that goes into it is, is I didn't, I didn't think that I, I don't even know how to put it into words because I'm like, I would talk to my wife about it. Like, I don't know how to approach this situation. Like I want to go in and yell at people, but I can't. They're like, that's the farthest thing that I can do. Just try it once. Just so you can double check your hypothesis. And I know the answer to that one. Cause I've tried it, but I'm going to let you go ahead and experience that on your own. And it's funny. Cause these guys deal with guns, but I'm like, there's no way. Like if I do, if I raise my voice, I'm going to lose, I'm going to lose people fast. Yeah. So yeah. But I had, you got to find a fine line because it's like, you have to show I'm the boss without, you know, being overly aggressive. The leadership stuff they taught us though, is the special sauce. It's the application that varies. I spent 10 years now talking at civilian organizations and a lot of them really deeply from an outside, they think that the military has leadership figured out. And I will say to a degree, the military does have it figured out, but what they can't replicate, what I mean is somebody looking from outside the military to the end. And I can tie this beyond one layer deep because just going to bootcamp and being in the military is one layer of initiation into that leadership style. But then you go into the special operations world where it's additional selection and refinement. And what comes from that is that the more that that happens in my experience, at least people become more and more and more aligned towards the end state, the purpose they're there because they want to be there. Yes. They're contractually obligated, but they keep volunteering for things that are really, really hard. Right. And what you get at the end of that are some of the easiest people to lead on planet earth. But if you pair that with, I do believe that the military has great leadership foundation. You can lead in a way that is so much more prescriptive and dogmatic. You're going to tell them what to do and they're going to do it because they're already bought in. Right. If you pull that out and you try to lead that way in a civilian organization where their onboarding program was a PowerPoint presentation after a one hour interview, good luck with that. Yeah. It might work if you find that one person that aligns with that style, but the number of professional organizations that have pulled me aside and said, listen, we've really tried to model what we thought was the military approach and it's not working. And my response to them is, yeah, I don't know why you thought that it was going to, you don't have the buy-in. We had people who would literally kill themselves and other people because they were so bought in. You sell used cars. Like we're not talking about the same thing. It's not going to work. Same concepts. It's the application that is what's hard. Yeah. Do you have any advice for that? Like that, like initial in processing of a, you know, a bulk batch of employees coming in for beat them, basically punish them. No, that's the answer that the military uses. No, the first thing you have to remind people is that leadership is not about having the perfect plan and then having the perfect team executed. Leadership is about taking the team that you do have, doing the best you can with your plan, but accomplishing the goal regardless of the team or plan you really have in front of you. Right. There's two, there's two very different things there. And slowly is what I recommend. And a lot of organizations, they don't even have an onboarding process. And if you think about it again, to go back to bootcamp, that's where they instill the ethos of the Marine Corps, which of all the branches, the Marine Corps does the best. I think with the like, like, you know, they just, they're just legends of that area. I'm sure that the Navy and other services have those, but I just really do think that the Marine Corps, as far as that, this is who we are. This is what we stand for, for the rest of their lives. Every Marine that I've ever met still carries that with them. And that's a testament to how they're, they were onboarded. Do I think that IBM needs to do that? Probably not. But the number of companies I see that have no onboarding, they're not investing any time on the front end. And the only realistic expectation that I can see if a company doesn't invest it on the front end is they're going to have problems along the way. So now you're just triaging stuff and plugging holes. So you got to at least devote some time, figure out who you are, explain to people their left and right boundaries. It's empowering when people know what their job is and what their job isn't, you know? And again, these are all concepts that comes from the world that we came from the commander's intent, right? Here's the objective. Here's our commander's intent for this mission. Oh, and I'm sitting there as an E5, like, I can understand that. And now as an E5, if I get to a small decision point, I'm like, okay, what were you trying to do with this? Gotcha. I'm going this direction, right? It's empowering. It's not restricting, it's empowering. And you can work that into your organizations, but it takes time. And sometimes it takes money and organizations are moving at the speed of business. And a lot of them don't want to dedicate that time to it. Right. And that's when I ask them, do you want to do this up front or do you want to do this as a career long course correction where you may never get to where you want to go? And that's the choice for them to answer. Yeah. Yeah. Same concepts though. Yeah. It's the application that is different. Yeah. It's, uh, take your time to get to know the people that are working for you because you don't have a selection course, right? You don't know necessarily why they're there, but if you can identify that in people, in my experience, the why, and for the coffee shop, for me, it's pretty easy. I don't expect anybody to be a barista for 20 years. I'm okay with it. If you want to, I might think you're just a touch weird if that's what you want to do, because it is not in this job, you're doing the same stuff. But if I talk to them and they say, Oh, I'm here, you know, I just finished high school and I'm going to try to figure out what I'm going to do next. I'm going to take about a year off and then go to college. I gotcha. Right. I'll work with you. I'll meet you where you're at. I understand you're here. Your why to be here is to pay your bills. I can work with that. It's when I think your why is here because I need you to live every core value of this coffee shop and you're there to pay your bills. We have a divergence now. That's my fault. Understanding that. So get to know your people and understand their why. And you might have a different language for every single one of your employees, but that's what's worked for me. Yeah. Yeah. That's literally a, uh, a Marine Corps trait leadership trait is, uh, know yourself and seek self-improvement, but, uh, look out for your Marines welfare really. So then I'm just thinking like, how do I put all of those into, to action and business? And, you know, it was, I had a goal, but the only way to achieve that goal is to give these guys the, the intent of what I want this to become. And, you know, if we're in Jackson hole, we need that five-star Jackson hole vibe. Like, so you're everything from appearance to how the place looks like we're, this is what we're going to actually deliver. Yeah. And so it's, it's great so far, I think. It's a challenge. Yeah. Yeah. It's a challenge. It's, uh, if I ever figured out in any way, I'll let you know. Yeah, please. Also, if you've ever figured out, you better let me know too, because we're stumbling our way through here. It's an interesting challenge. It's all the same stuff though. It really is all the same stuff. Um, it's just the application that is different all the way up to the point of, like you said, you know, I know how to kill people. How am I to do anything else? If you actually look at that statement from a technical perspective, I know how to plan and conduct. Uh, high level of military operation. And when I get on target, I know my roles and responsibilities and how to physically shoulder a weapon properly align my sites while utilizing marksmanship procedures and techniques to get rounds on target where I want them to, and not on other targets that has everything to do with the business world as well. Right? The foundation that you build on the TTPs that you're going to use in business that you can set for your own business, the vision and accuracy that you're using to metaphorically pull the trigger on the, you know what I mean? It actually all applies. It's all the same stuff. It's the different application. Yeah. It's just way easier to say, oh, I'm going to do anything. Oh, they'd kill people. God dammit. Yeah. Which is the most useless skill on planet earth. Yeah. Honestly, I think that some of us use that as an excuse to not take action. And like, I think it, it might've been with you and Rogan, uh, talking about how wild it is. How many of us get fat when we leave or don't do anything? Yeah. It's like, well, because you're playing the professional veteran now and like people owe you something no like where did you lose the drive to like go out and take selections and to freaking crush skulls like listen i don't i can't speak for the marine corps we had some tubby tubbies well i'm gonna be honest though it seemed as if it was toward the higher collar devices enlisted in officer yeah once you pick up chief something happens you get access to the chief's mess and so that's that's the jump for people listening in the navy from e6 to e7 that's the big jump yeah what is it in the marine corps is it e6 to e7 as well uh once you pick up e7 yeah you're a gunny yeah normally it's it's e7 to e8 that's the big one yeah that's when people really start to make that shift yeah no there are some rotund yeah yeah and uh maybe they could say they uh you know they fly a desk for a living or they're in a role it's like okay but you're also still in a leadership role yeah people are paying attention yes yeah so what standard are you going to set you're going to talk about being physically dominant and struggle to tie your shoes okay cool got it yeah noted yeah yeah um you were talking about when you got your award yes you were talking about the perception that you had or that other people what you thought the perception other people had of you what was that yeah so you know we were talking about the superhero type of thing and going through boot camp we idolized these superheroes these high valor award recipients medal of honor navy cross recipients and then when i get to the unit over at marsoc um we have our walls decorated like much like you have here you know we've got paddles everywhere with there's shadow boxes and storyboards and people's gear left behind exactly and so it's like okay so who are the legends that walked before us and how do i become like them hopefully not dead but like you know how do i how do i live up to their legacies like our school houses are named after you know guys like that so i fell into a very prestigious team and we had a navy cross recipient from afghanistan we had a like this guy aaron torian he was in like a legend within marsoc and i'm like these giants walked before me how do i live up to their reputation and then it happened i got put into a shitty situation and i did some things that i feel like a lot of people would do in those circumstances but i i got awarded for it because of where i was you know and more than where you were it's because you were there and you chose to make that call right so it is a combination of those things but don't diminish the actions that you took by any stretch because you are you live up to every ounce of that citation for sure well thank you so i just sometimes i still have an issue i guess talking about it i don't know i don't know why if i feel i feel like kind of weird how come i don't know i think it's a it meaning let me ask you this are you comparing yourself to other people or other awards of the similar level when you say that i think it's a mixture of that and i i don't ever want to feel like i'm like bragging or boasting about anything like i just i wanted to feel natural but i guess in these situations you know like you got to kind of you have to talk about it it's like i don't meet people and say hey i'm i'm a navy cross champion nick jones actually but um i saw you wearing your blazer today was there there are some people who it is that you know it's 10 feet in front of them somehow and you know that yeah and again i was never put into a place like that i never took any actions that were like that i'm not going to judge anybody but my theory is your your experiences and the things that come from that you've earned the right to do with them however you want to yeah yeah that people the the you know the what do they call a lapel yeah the lapel pin stuff never been my thing not judging anybody for doing that yeah there's other ways that you can take that for sure but it's uh i think it would be hard actually to be perceived as boasting or bragging about it i don't know any citations at that level that are anything other than horrific you know what i mean it might have elicited the best performance of their life but they're all horrible right and at that level they all involve generally catastrophic loss of life of others which i don't even know how it'd be possible to boast about that yeah and so i like that point right there is one that like messed me up for a while because when people the the nation see a navy cross or a medal of honor their first reaction is congratulations yeah and my response to that much like thank you for your service is like sometimes i don't know how to respond to that and i'm like congratulations for my teammates dying congratulations for like you know risking my life and that's not how they mean it though i know and have you ever tried this one when they say you go give it a try yeah i'll try thank you for your service yeah excuse me listen i'm not saying i've made all good decisions in my life yeah that'd be yeah it's like okay that's something wrong with that guy put in your rolodex yeah sparingly i will okay um they don't know what to say yeah and so then it was like i then this was a me thing i put it into this box and i was like i'm perceived as this hero as this superhero that like we put all these other guys into and now that's me but like down here i'm struggling like this was the hardest day of my life this was like something that is gonna live and is burned into my memory forever and so like at one point in time i felt like that unstoppable bulletproof guy with you know captain america and then i got really humbled and realized like we are all human and like even the best can you know can fall and it was a it was a very intense wake-up call that it's like dude if i don't like if i don't reframe this and look at this differently it's going to tear me up you know because i was like i'm not a hero i'm not a superhero i'm not i'm this award is just something that was given to me for you know actions if i could give it back i would you know i've i've said that several times but it's like it was uh it was a very hard thing to kind of i guess recalibrate in my mind of like we we are put we are put in a position where we can't do anything we can't do it into like god puts us into these situations to take these certain actions and they wouldn't give it to certain people if we weren't strong enough to be able to do something with it and i asked somebody after the fact i was like look i've got an opportunity to speak and you know i think that they they want me to talk about the experience i was like how do i do this and like how can i how can i use this to my advantage and they're like look like there's there's a time that you can use this for good or you can use this for bad or you can use this for good and they're like look you can use it for evil like you've got this very high award now he's like but you have two literal lanes to walk now use it for good or use it for evil your own personal gain or to help people and i was like i'm fucking helping people like that's what i'm doing like there's no way because that's what i tried to do and i felt like i failed and now i got to pick it back up and and you know so that's that's kind of been you know my whole my whole goal with this thing is like i didn't this award wasn't for me this was for them their sacrifices so have you had a chance to talk with other marines who've gotten the navy cross yeah so that i went to i joined this uh it's called the legion of valor it's actually the oldest veteran service organization to date i believe that's the illuminati actually okay we don't michael cut that out i think we have just breached our security protocol the illuminati might be either the illuminati or scientology might for us one of the two is after us now yeah hopefully you depending on what you believe the illuminati has been around longer than the military but i'm not so sure i believe in the illuminati if they're here do you got any guns under here because actually i do yes it's on my side though i'll hand it to you these are all airsoft yes i had thought about it i don't want anybody to get too super fired up about the studio and try to figure out where it is because i don't want a like class three door true so yeah that shoots pellets people yeah yeah yeah yeah some freaking nerds all right the legion of valor yeah great name by the way um i think it was 19 or 1881 i believe is when it was established don't quote me on that but i believe that that's that's right um anyway so it is a um organization for medal of honor recipients and cross recipients so any any branch but more recently they get these annual get-togethers their conventions and they bring all of these award recipients together and it's it's great i mean it's a bunch of old-timers that get together and they they go on these memorial museums and stuff like that um so i got invited it was uh may of 2022 to something like that april 2022 yeah and i had in December of 21, my wife told me that she was pregnant my daughter. In January, it was when I had my big breakdown, attempted suicide. I might have these dates mixed up. I don't know. But I was like, there's no way that this kid, I didn't know if it was a boy or a girl yet, is going to meet me. I'm a drunk. I'm a fucking animal. There's no absolute way. So I went into my garage, me and Fletcher, took my Glock and pulled the trigger. He knows. And I had a light strike in my Glock. And I mean, and that doesn't happen hardly ever with Glocks. I mean, well, even just ammunition. So for people listening, a light strike on the back of a cartridge, there's the projectile, which is generally encapsulated by the brass cartridge. And there is a primer that is a small explosion that basically lights off the powder, which expands, explodes. And then that's what pushes the projectile out. You're talking about the firing pin hitting the primer, primer not going off. I've had these on the range, but it's rare. Dude, we're talking one in millions of rounds. So when that happened and like, I mean, you know, we say like firing on an empty changer is the loudest sound in the gunfight, right? So I was like, it was empty. And I literally racked it and round came out. And I just started bawling my eyes out. And Fletcher fucking knocks me off the chair that I'm in. And like, I'm, you know, still drinking. And finally, when I like wipe my tears away. You were drinking at the time? Oh yeah. Heavily. How hard was it for you to get to that place where you were applying pressure to the trigger? So, man, I almost went through rehearsals before and- It's very professional of you. Yeah. Jesus. But the most, the weirdest thing was, is I was doing it while, I've never said this in out in public. The weirdest thing was I was doing it while I was driving. And because I was alone, nobody was around me, you know? So I would just took the gun out of my glove box. I was like, I could easily do this. And like- You think you were slowly walking yourself to that point? Yeah. I was just seeing if I could do it, like feel the trigger press or literally talk to myself. Like, I know you, you, you've pulled the trigger. A thousand times. Like it's no different. Except it is. And yeah, it's a different enemy on the other side of the muzzle this time. It goes against every natural survival instinct that I think the human, that a human being has. Yeah. I, dude, and it's, it's so bizarre. Cause it's like, when we talk about suicide and we have friends that have done that, we're like, oh my gosh, they're so selfish and this and that, it's like, how could you do that to us? But in that very moment, it was the most selfless thing that I could think of because I was like, dude, I'm such a burden. I'm a fucking train wreck. Like I'm going to bring everybody down. I'm going to make my wife like go absolutely crazy. I'm going to, I'm going to ruin everything if I stay here. And like, my pain is so bad. Like, I just want to break. I want to rest. And I was fucking done. And so I just knew like, this is it. This is the sure way. I know that this thing works. And dude, it was, yeah. I mean, I can literally, I can still see my face to that day. And I didn't tell anybody for a really long time, getting back to where I went and why I went there. Um, I, I went to this Legion of Valor convention with a, an agenda in mind. I wanted to meet these people and figure out how they're still alive because I don't know how you live with the weight of this award. And I, and I thought it was the award doing it to me. Like I knew that the, the battle and all of that stuff, but I'm like now, cause I put myself in this box of this like hero, but I've failed hero and all this shit. And I was like, I was fucked up from it. And I went there and this dude starts talking Navy cross recipient from, um, it was like, Oh, four in Iraq. Um, and he said like 12 years after his battle, he attempted suicide. And I just, I broke down and my wife didn't know why. And I went, we went back to our hotel room that night and I told her, and I was like, I tried to kill myself and I don't know what to do because I'm like panicking. And like, I feel like I'm still in that spot. I just don't know how to do this stuff. And she didn't know how to take that either. And because I've put her through so much shit, like, I mean, she's seeing me get in my alphas to go notify my friend's wife that he's never seen me. And I'm like, I don't know what to do. And I'm like, I'm never coming home. And like all of this crazy shit. And then she gets a knock on the door thinking that I'm dead. And now I tell her that I want to end it. And like, God, I mean, she is a saint. Like she's amazing. If it wasn't for her, like, I don't know where I'd be. I'd probably be dead. But, um, I anyways, when I told her that she didn't know, and I was like, you know, we're, we're planners. I know how to enact the contingency plan, but the only way that I know how to do that is to like fire the red star cluster. And I was like, I need to tell all of my friends, you need help. You need support. And so do I like, this is the first step. This is the only thing that I know how to do. And we have a board of directors and I'm literally like committed to helping people, but I can't even help myself. So I went there first and called my closest friends and told them, I was like, I just need you to know that I've been living a lie. Like I am suicidal. I'm an extreme alcoholic. Like I need fucking help. And so then I took the step when I got home. To Bozeman and I called the VA and I said, I need to be admitted into inpatient treatment. I'm an alcoholic and I'm extremely suicidal. And they told me that it's a six month wait for any sort of treatment. And so then I had another mental breakdown and I was like, I can't, I can't fucking wait six months. There's no way. Like I'm like in crisis mode right now. And then I got, I started getting connected with more people. And I, that's when I found out about plant, and I went down and did that stuff and freaking blew my mind in another direction. So yeah, I really started to get my life back in track, but I don't really remember what I was going into when we started talking about that, but no, the Legion of Valor. Well, I was going to ask you, this ties into the Legion of Valor and your conversations with those people, Medal of Honor recipients and Navy Cross recipients. Have you met anybody yet who doesn't struggle with the weight of that award? Yeah, I don't, I mean. Like Audie Murphy is an example. I keep using him because again, I wasn't in the Marine Corps, but even, or Chesty Puller, another name, you know, try it when you're done with pull-ups, one more for Chesty, one more for the Marine Corps. So I've been told. Which one of those, Chesty's was one of the most decorated Marines, like in the history of military awards, right? Yeah. Today's episode is brought to you by Hexclad. It's coming to the end of the summer and it's kind of a bummer. I didn't know it was coming. I didn't know it was not mean to rhyme there, but that's just the way it worked out. Reason it's a little bit of a bummer is I really like grilling and not that I don't grill in the winter here in Montana. It's just a little bit nicer to be able to wear flip-flops instead of a full snowsuit. 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So it's quite literally the last set of cookware and grill gear you're ever going to need to buy. So it's a great product. It's a great product. It's a great If you are anything like me and you love grilling, that's your favorite way to cook, then don't make it harder than it needs to be. Stop losing food through the grates, stop fighting cleanup, and upgrade your backyard cooking setup with Hexclad Barbecue Collection. For a limited time only, listeners get 10% off your order with the exclusive link. Head over to hexclad.com slash cleared hot. You can support the show and check them out at hexclad.com slash cleared hot. Make sure to let them know that we sent you back to the show. It would be fascinating. I mean, I know he's long past, but to sit down and be able in a medium like this to unpack the weight of that, I bet at a certain level, he wasn't okay with it either. And he is still to this day, and he should be an icon inside of the Marine Corps, but I don't know if anybody is suited to handle it and just absorb that. It's horrendous enough to earn that. And I'm fortunate enough to know some Medal of Honor, recipients on the SEAL side. And it's a kind of a mixed bag. There was one from the Vietnam era that was awarded that really, really young. And I think he's struggled with it his entire life because it's all he's been known for. And everywhere he goes, he comes in 10 feet after the notification that that person is coming and that thing. And so people have these preconceived notions of him. But I don't know if you're supposed to be able to handle that. Handle the weight of that, man. Yeah. I think it would have been, I've asked myself this question like if I wouldn't have got hurt and I would have been able to stay active still gotten the award if I would have been going that fast still would it have affected me I think my answer stays the same but I would have been doing all of the intense shit that we did before to help drown it out for the time being yeah but eventually we're all going to transition and once that shit slows down that is when and so I mean that's been my my goal is to help people like realize like do transitions coming coming and like I mean there's so many different transitions in life but it's like you got to get ready to be bored a little bit I would almost this we're purely in the realm of hypothesis at this point but I've heard you describe before you that award correct me if I'm wrong but you have described before you got that award but you felt like you had failed because of your two teammates had you gotten that award and you hadn't been injured I think there's a better than not chance if you viewed that as a failure you would have doubled down even more and potentially even sought out more aggressive more dangerous positions to try to make amends for that yeah and I don't know what that looks like either yeah it might be for the totality of your life the best thing that happened that you were not given the opportunity to try to take action after that again deep in the world yeah at this point but yeah I mean I also think about if if I didn't get shot I mean I would have probably tried to go farther into the cave and would have ended up getting killed regardless so do you still view it as a failure um I do have a way different relationship with the mission itself um because now I I understand that I did do everything that I could that day and they got they got recovered they came home and you know I I think the reason why it felt like a failure to me personally is because I was like the the first responder on scene I went in there and I pulled out this French guy and then I fought for for a long time to try to get these guys and I was like took over this tactical control down there and I mean I was I was probably fifth in line for taking over like the the command but I ended up becoming the first one just because of no it was so complex it was like I'm I'm calling the shots now nobody's taking action like I'm gonna do this well what happened it might help the audience if we yeah yeah yeah whatever yeah depth and level you want yeah I mean I I won't go if I get into too much details I'd end up ranting and then it'll take a long time but like um you know speeding things up on March 8th 2020 we got tasked with a really large cave clearance operation um initial reports there were seven fighters in these seven different caves that we've been watching French intelligence northern Iraq right yes yep so in between Mosul um Erbil there was this mountain range called the Mokmor Mountains technically controlled by the Kurdish it was bizarre like they the Kurdish owned the ridge line but just on the south side of that there was all of these fingers that ran down into this valley and ISIS just had caves all throughout there so they had been watching these and they didn't know what they were doing supposedly um but we were told to go check them out and we were gonna soften them up bomb the caves beforehand and then come in and kind of do a BDA or battle damage assessment so basically just cleaning up all the dead bodies and figuring out what kind of shenanigans they're doing in the caves so uh we insert on helicopters well let me back up because talking about planning and I heard you talking with with uh Joe Rogan about this um there's a specific point where in planning there's a go and a no-go criteria you know much about that much like jumping too and you're experiencing those like you fucking hit the wind capacity you shouldn't be jumping and hey guys it's 40 knots anybody want to go like first off the book is deciding this for us yes yeah there is literally in writing why we shouldn't go and when you say like enemy forces double in size that's a no-go criteria so why why are we still going and so anyways that exact thing happened like over the hours of intelligence gathering and information updating and stuff like that there's all these fighters that start showing up in full kit ready they know we're coming and it's like these constant updates my guys are getting juiced they're like oh yeah and I've got young guys on the team like this was my fifth deployment but only my third to combat so been Afghanistan once uh northern Iraq but Kirkuk area for my second one and then that would be my third anyways I I went over there and I briefed them and I was like look guys like we know we're going to see something we know we're we're going to get into a fight here like this is real though like you know just watch out for each other do the plan that we we rehearsed so we hit the ground um and it was like it was very surreal flying over it because like if you've been any part of that country like you know if you've been to any part of that country like you know if you've been to any part of that country like you know if you've been to any part of that country like you know if you've been to any part of that country like you know if you've been to any part of that country like you know if you've been to any part of that country like you know if you've been to any part of that country like you there wasn't so much shit going on and so many shitheads there's some very beautiful parts of that area some of I mean the most beautiful sunsets I've ever seen yes we're in Iraq yeah I actually have a really cool photo of getting medevaced the black hawk flying away and like the sun is setting it's like it's super cool I'll show you I mean except for what was happening yes I get these yeah yeah I mean if it was somebody else that'd be an even bigger picture yeah um well so we're flying in on these um ch-47s and uh they're like as we do one pass like we see like smoke hitting like they're they're hitting the caves and like you can kind of hear it over the rotors not not really I think it's just I felt like I could hear it but anyways I'm flying over and I was I remember thinking to myself like wow this is absolutely beautiful and then we land and go up over this mountain and it's like eerily quiet like it was it was really weird and then next thing you know like we hit the limit of advance the machine gunners just start opening up snipers start opening up because they had targets of opportunity and I was like holy shit like there's still people that are moving around but then my Iraqis did not want to move they were like I'm not going so it's like okay like I'll pop some smoke we'll pop up over this thing and then we'll start advancing so I did it for them and then we get to this part blah blah blah we um get to this one cave and we're starting to do our ssc our um site sensitive exploitation yeah which essentially is probably the best way to describe ssc you're kind of collecting your most of the time it happens at least in a building it would be after the objective is secure and you're going back through every room and you're gathering intelligence essentially yeah you're bagging stuff your pictures drawings I mean depending on what it is you have but you're you're yeah collecting available intelligence that's probably the best way to put it yeah yeah kind of like when you're watching cops like I think cops are going back through the vehicle and they're collecting all the usable intelligence information and all the drugs out of there so I had just thrown in this uh asm anti-structural munition grenade it's almost like a full pound of c4 in this grenade which is super cool grenade by the way yeah um it's a thermobaric yeah yeah yeah um we just called them t-bombs t-bombs okay yeah they're amazing yes assuming you're not in the building yes I had so that was like our our sop or standard operating procedures like if we had a cave within um we had a cave in the building and we were like oh my god we're in a cave we're in a cave I shot like it was either getting a full satchel depending on the the um the cave entrance and how deep we were going to make entrance or it would get one of those and then I could peek in yep so threw that in there and then I start to come up so I guess I wasn't like in an ssc phase I was more in the initial type of clear um but it was this one was very shallow so anyways I get up there this asm had completely dusted this dead isis fighter and like I'm staring at this guy and meanwhile like had all of this had happened my team chief which is uh I don't know who what do you guys call your highest enlisted in a seal troop that uh in a troop that would be the troop chief so a troop for us would be two operational elements of probably 16 each would have a chief an a oic and oic then that would cascade up to the troop chief and commander okay yeah so our troop chief yep which is we call our team chief yep uh highest enlisted in the team got a little antsy at some point and broke off the back half of the element was like hey we're gonna go check out this cave ends up rabbit holing down the mountain into this valley that now the support by fire couldn't see them so they had to displace change their position to go see them as well for um you know create a new support by fire position there meanwhile I'm looking into this cave and um I'm looking into this cave and I'm looking into this and I'm about to make entry and then next thing you know like just hell opens up behind me and these dudes get contact explosions automatic machine guns like all of this starting to happen at once and I was like okay like no big deal like they're in contact they've got And then I hear over the radio, like there's a casualty and then there's an eagle down and like all of this is happening with like in a split second. I was like, all right, they've got it. And then there's another eagle down. I was like, no way, dude. My stomach dropped like super fast. And I told my Iraqi partner for, so I was like, you guys watch this cave, like make sure nothing comes in, nothing goes out. I'll be back. And I just ran down there most like untactical manner I could, but like passing these other cave entrances with like bags and blankets like stacked up. So I'm like, okay, these are fighting positions. Just give them a couple rounds a piece. I don't know if there's anybody in there or not. How far? It was probably, it was a train feature away. So I mean, maybe distance right now for my memory is not, I'll say 200. But like very rocky, very difficult terrain to move in. And I had in my back, I had a whole lot of explosives because I knew that we were doing cave clearance. So like I loved, I had a full satchel charge and I had like some makeshift Bangalores that we made that are smaller, but like just basically deck cord wrapped up in a piece of C4 and stuff like that. So, but a full. A full satchel charge is, I think, I want to say it's like 16 blocks of C4. It's a dizzy. Yes. First off, how underrated is the Bangalore torpedo? I mean, as a weapon. Oh man. It, I can't believe we don't, we didn't use them more, but we used them. They're kind of hard to carry around. That's true. I mean, it's like a four foot, five foot long, like. You'd look like a dude and be like, why is that guy carrying these huge dildos around the combat center? Yeah. Because they're just like flying. Yeah. Is that a sword? Yeah. Is that a sword? Yeah. What? Yeah. What is that guy doing? And then it goes off. You're like, oh, I like those. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. We actually used a whole bunch. Like we would rig the insides of these caves and tunnels and blow. That's amazing. It was. We only did it in training. And we used them for underwater stuff in training. And even then I'm like, these are fantastic. It was cool. Yeah. I enjoyed it. Like the whole like art of actually like whipping the end of a Bangalore. Anyways. Yeah. So, so I had a very heavy rock on. I had a lot of explosives in there. And when I get there, I. I could tell like there was some crazy shit going on. There was like people just sitting though. Frozen. It was like the most bizarre. Iraqi or American? Both. Damn. Yeah. So overwhelmed. Yes. By OBE. Overwhelmed by events. Yes. The majority were Iraqi, but a couple of smoking cigarettes as per. So. It's probably never stopped. Just chain smoking throughout the entire engagement. Yeah. Seriously. Um, but so my first reaction was I'm throwing off my rock and I'm jumping into whatever's going on. So I ended up jumping into this ravine and there's one French guy in there and he is his guns oriented north up this little ravine. I was trying to talk to him and say, Hey man, where are the, where are the casualties? Where's the enemies at? And he just not talking guns fixated. So I'm like, all right, there's my answer. So I started low crawling up on this big boulder. And as my head crests over, I see this like dark cave entrance, like the mouth of this cave rocks stacked up and like, I mean very, very insane looking entrance. And I mean it was a split second because as soon as I saw it, they saw me and just like start pinning me down. And I mean this, it was very close, like probably as close as these walls this way together, how close the little ravine was that we were in. And so, I mean it was, it was absolutely insane, but I saw a body when I went up there and, um. My first thought was like, this dude's dead, like there's no way that that person is alive right now. And this guy keeps yelling at him and he's like, roll, roll, roll. Next thing you know, these legs just fly up in the midst of all of this gunfire. So I just chicken wing my gun and just start blazing. I'm shooting and shooting and I run up there and I grabbed this dude and I pull him down, push him down the rocks. And I feel this guy grab him and I'm just like laying down suppressive fire for him. And then, um, as soon as they, or as soon as he pulls them out. Like we get more people to help and, and kind of drag him off. And so I stay in there and keep fighting to try to, you know, suppress them as much as possible so they could get out. Would you have an M4? M4. Okay. With a 203 on the bottom. Of course. Yeah. Yeah. I thought that was leadership, was to carry the heaviest stuff and the most- You have to bring the golden egg to the party. Yeah. Oh yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It was- For people not listening, a 203 goes underneath the barrel and it's, it's a 40 millimeter grenade launcher. Very distinctive. Thunk as it goes out and yeah, you're hucking an explosive charge hundreds of, hundreds of yards. Yeah. Probably even at max ordnance. Yeah. Yeah. And I was shooting those danger close that whole time. Um. What is it? 33 yards for those thing arms? Yeah. Cause they got to do a full- PZO electric fuse. You have to hit the- Yeah. Centrifugal force. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. There was actually one, maybe two that I shot that just went and smacked and I was like, okay, I'm a little too close. So- Damn. Yeah. I was up on top of the cave. But anyways, so, um, once that happened, somebody finally threw a smoke in there. Once it, you know, um, filled up, I was able to get out of there, got out. And then we kind of re, re came up with a plan, which was, there was no plan. It was just like, let's, I got to go up there and see, I got to identify where the casualties are. So I started crawling up and the snipers are walking me up and they said, Hey, I think that there's a body right here. Just keep going. And as soon as I, it's like, I'm walking on these huge, huge rocks and I, I knew what I saw down there, but I didn't know now, like how, how high I actually was. And so I was, I was walking on the roof and I, I had to go very, very slow. The roof of the cave they were in. Yeah. Okay. And so as I get to the edge, like I see one of the bodies and I knew immediately like that he was gone. So I go up a little bit closer and then I see, um, the other one off to the side. And like he, it was a little bit more believable. Maybe he was alive cause he was sitting up, hand was on his gun still and like this hand was back. So he was like actively trying to scoot back. And so I whispered his name and like nothing. And then I said. So this is, so the cave opening, you're up above looking back down in this direction. Yeah. Okay. Yep. And, uh, so I tried, you know, talking, whispering, confirming. And, and they were, they were gone. So I, I went back, I called up to the, the commander and I told him, and that's when like the real, like level black set in on people. They were like, how are Moe and Diego gone Moe? So Diego was the team chief and then Moe was the executive officer of the company. So this turned into a big SOTIF level wide operation, um, stands for special operations task force for people. Yep. Yep. Yeah. Yeah. Right. So he was, he was the executive officer of the company. Should not be involved in that. So before he was, this guy was my team commander, um, on my previous deployment and then got promoted up to be the executive officer of the company. So anyways, he, we joked before the mission, I was like, Moe, I'm just going to give you my extra mags when I need them, like come up and resupply me, you know, and, um, like you can carry all the extra water and stuff, which ironically, he actually gave me his, his only water because my camel back broke on the bird on the way in. So anyways, like it was very shocking. And I, that was like one of those moments to me where I was like, this is way more complex than, than I could even imagine. Looking down there and then looking down the line of the guys that I had, I'm like, well, this dude's got kids, he's got kids, like he's married. And I was like, I'm, I'm the only one that I can sacrifice here. Like I can't task these dudes to go down here because he's going to die to go in this way. I knew how real it was. Like, I just, I just witnessed it and now these guys are dead. And so it became very much of a, a recovery mission at that point. And so I talked to the snipers, I was like, I trust you guys. Just trust me. I was like, I need you to suppress as much as you can. I'm going in there. And I go in there and as soon as I reached the edge of that cave, like, brr, like just opening up, like from all different angles, which was weird because I'm like, well, these You mean the edges and the opening to the cave? Yeah. So like, right. So if I was on top of this table, I would try to go up there to like, like Fletcher, you know, I would try to get as close as I could, but Diego was really far down there. Either it was probably 15 feet to reach him, but if Mo was awake, he could have reached me. And that's like that vision that's burned into my head. I can see him reaching up to me, but he never did. And so I would go up to this cave and I would lean over. And I would look, I would watch these people and I would chuck my grenades at them. And I would try to hit them with my grenades, because I'm trying to, you know, get enough lull in the fight to jump down there. But somehow I'm getting shot from like, my snipers are not shooting me. It's like something they're shooting at these guys. And then we're also taking fire from all of these other different spots. We thought it was ricochets or whatever. Well, so then I would come back and then I'd go back in, I would take the high concentrate, the smokes, and I would try to smoke them out and I would do that. But then fire, they would just increase their fire and I just could not get a big enough lull. So I stepped back, I had them shoot Carl G's in there. ASM, like the thermobaric rounds for the Carl G's. We had HEDP. Um, that cave was eating Carl G rounds. And then I called in Apache. So the Apache needed a 10 digit grid, even though they could see, they still needed it for their computers or whatever. So I stood on top of the cave and I gave it to him and I was like, just shoot a meter below me and you'll hit. So they shot 220, 30 millimeters and no effect. Didn't even, didn't even break some of the, the defense stackings that they had. So then we did a hellfire and, um, the hellfire hit, but I, I want to say it zinged off. Off the top as well. Something. So I was like, I was danger close to this one as well. And it was, he was like, Hey man, like I can still see you. Like you need to move up and over. I was like, I'm not moving. Like I need to keep situational awareness. I have no more water. I'm very low on ammo. I'm tired. I'm not sending big boy. Yeah. He's like, okay, just get low. And like, so I was like, okay, Roger that. And I told everyone, I was like, just get lower. Like, and so then we, we all get low and it's just, that was the most bizarre thing. Like seeing people. And I was like, Holy shit, here it comes. And, um, so yeah. And then when the snipers were like, yeah, no effect, I was like, no fucking way, dude. So then that's when I called up to the commander. I was like, all right, man, one more time. I'm going in one more time. If we can't figure it out here, then, then we'll pull off. But like their option was to drop a 500 pounder on there. It was like, absolutely not. Yeah. Like I can deal with a, like a more precision fire of hellfire, but you drop a bomb on there. You're dropping a bomb on our guys. Like that's not going to happen, but nobody was thinking, you know, I was like, there's gotta be something else. Like the QRF, that's our same guys. Like there's gotta be another way. So then they ended up calling in the ETF. Um, the, the Delta force guys, they were there. I don't know if they were in Syria or if they were in Iraq, it doesn't matter where they were, but, um, so they, they started to get spun up and, uh, I didn't really know about that that time, period when I was still down there. My, the only COA that I was actively fighting against was COA's course of action, uh, was them drop, trying to drop a bomb on there. I was like, first of all, we dropped bombs on all of these caves already, and we know that it didn't kill everybody. So you're just going to drop it on our people. We're not doing that. So anyways, I go back up there for this final attempt. We get everybody online and we start shooting at every random cave and anything that we could see that. I was like, I'm going to get it and I'm going to go in there and pull at least one of them out. Mo is a 240 pound dude. Plus kit was like 300 pounds. It was like, I don't know how I'm going to do this, but superhero, right? Yeah. And it's not like a barbell. It's not, uh, I hate to use the term dead weight, but in this situation, that's what we're talking about. It is not a linearly loaded barbell. You could take a 200 pound human being, which you could maybe rep on a barbell. And it is hard to describe. Yeah. How hard it is to move. Yeah. Yeah. There's no momentum. There's no nothing like it's not stiff. Yeah. There's no rigidity. It is. It's like a sandbag essentially. Yeah. Yeah. Um, so anyways, I, I felt committed, felt ready. I went up there, I put my, my right foot on the very edge of like, just gaining a little bit of like my confidence stance or something, whatever it was like right on the edge of the roof of the cave. And then just fucking, I was like, Oh my God, what was that? And I like kind of rolled back and like scooted back down towards my medic and was like, dude, I think I just got shot. And he's like, what do you mean you think you got shot? That's like my fucking leg hurts. And so like, we looked down and it's like just trickling blood out. And I was like, he cut my pant leg off and was like, Holy shit, like what happened? And so he tries to like, like do a quick evaluation. And he's like, stand up. And I could not hardly put any weight on there. And immediately it starts setting in. I was like, Oh no, dude. Like, I'm not going to be able to get these guys. I'm not, I'm not going to be the one. And now I'm leaving all of my junior guys out here. Somebody's going to die. And like all of these thoughts, like within milliseconds are running through my head. And then I was like, just don't call in the medevac yet. Like, I was like, don't tattle that tattletale on me. You know, like I don't want to just get stitches. Yeah. Seriously. And he's like, well, dude, like, I mean, you can't walk. I was like, no, I'm fine. Like, let's just, let's just tell him that we're going to regroup and we'll go make another plan. And so like, I'm trying to maintain my composure and take, make all these calls. I was like, sir, we're going to back off. We're going to go make this other plan. And then I hear him call back in and he's like, why are you limping? Because they're watching from the support by fire. And I was like, I didn't answer. And the next thing you know, my medic comes up after, cause they were like going to carry me up. And I said, no, man, like I'm going to walk up that we need all the guns in the fight that we can. And then on the walk up there, like, as I'm crying, like a baby, like they were like, just take the damn lollipop. Like we called in your medevac, you're going home. And that's when it, it really set in. And I was like, fuck, like, cause then I, you know, when you get medevac, you got to hand over serialized gear. So I'm handing over my serialized gear and stuff like that. When we finally reach into a position, not while I'm walking, but, um, I'm handing over my mags. And I was like, dude, I fucking failed. And then next thing you know, like I, they had to hoist me out because the, the train was so steep. So they sent a hoist down, picked me up, took me up there. And then like, you know, the last thing I remember was like, Hey, how's your pain? I was like, it hurts. And then, and then back into the recovery. What aspect of that in the moment? Did you feel like you had failed? I mean, again, I I'm unfamiliar with the, that exact terrain, but listening to you talk about everything that you tried and coordination and different angles, what part of that did you feel like you had failed? I, so during the workup, I felt like I was the, the mediator for the team between like a good leader and a semi reckless leader. And I was mentoring these younger guys into what I was bred into for the last two rotations of that team. And I'm not trying to talk ill on the dead or anything like that, but we, but this guy, he was wild. He was, he was kind of reckless as a leader at times. It happens. We have issues with that. All units have issues with that. And so I would, I would be that, that mediator for these guys. And I would try to calm them down. And like, I was very aggressive as well. Don't get me wrong, but like, I was still very tactically sound. And sometimes there was decisions that were not so that way. Um, especially during operations that we did that I had to tell dudes like, don't pay attention to that. Do the right thing. You know, the right thing. Um, so when I got put into that situation, I felt like, okay, now eyes are on me. I need to lead these guys to success because I've done it in training already. And they know that they can rely on me. And then I, I felt like I let them down by, by that. So like, I felt like I let my, my guys down that were watching, but then also that like, now it was my turn to like help this guy that kind of put us in that situation. And I, I felt responsible. I felt like that was me that was supposed to bring them out because I had been fighting for the last five hours to get them. And when I, when I wasn't the one, it was like, yeah, I failed. But that's where like, people were like, dude, but you tried for so long. Like, how can you say that's a failure? I get it. No, I understand. Yeah. Did they, did the people in the cave, did they allow those two to approach and then just basically ambush them right at the lip of the cave? It sounds like. No. So the, um, if like, if this is the mouth of the cave or I guess like this, this right here, this is the mouth of the cave. It would be the mouth of the cave for you. They found it up on top. They sent the French guy down this way and Mo and Diego went this way to like pie off kind of, well, as soon as this dude came down, slid down this rock wall to like start pying, he was in the fatal funnel and they immediately opened up on him, but only shot him in through and through in the left leg, I believe. And, and then in the top of the head, somehow, two shots, helmets work, fucking hit the top of his helmet, went like down like this and like gave him a nice haircut. I still talk to that dude to this day. Um, but then these two like quickly kind of came down to add suppressive fire, but they were literally in a window, like in a gun port. You could see the smoke. I can show you some, some pictures of the cave. It's absolutely bizarre. Um, you could see the burned smoke from how much they had shot out of this thing. And they just lit them both up. Like Diego fell off and like right into the front. And then Mo kind of fell right where he stood. Fuck. Yeah. So it was just like, it was very intense. I can only imagine. I don't know what else you could have tried, man. I know you said you have a different relationship with it now, which I'm glad to hear, but from somebody hearing that story for the first time, I don't, I mean, I don't know what else you could have tried. Um, anything else would have probably, there's an argument to be made that you were pushing the envelope with safety as it was. I do like the description of trying to physically hit people with grenades. I like that a lot. Oh yeah. Yeah. I mean, I could see. That's my favorite part of the story. Yeah. Did you cook any off or did you just let them go? There was one that I did for like, not even a full second. I'm too much of a pussy to cook off a grenade. No, dude. It's not like the movies. No, it's not. Yeah. I mean, we're talking military ordnance here. Like. Like I don't trust the second delays that we've got or whatever, three seconds. I know. Hard pass. Looks great in the movies. Yeah. I wouldn't have the balls to do that either. I mean, I think sometimes you get put into situations that don't have an actual solution. So you were medevaced out. How did they eventually, how did that day end? Um, so we, when I got medevaced, the French guy had just gotten medevaced earlier. Before that, both wound up back in her Beale. And then, um, that night, once the sun went down, the Delta force guys came in. They tried using their tools. They tried using drones. They tried doing call outs. And I, I won't even say I could be making this up. I don't even know, but I think that they might've tried to bribe them with money. Maybe saying like, Hey, just let us get our guys. And then we're gone. Um, I might've made that up. I don't remember. I know that they used. And they were trying to call them out. I can see that as plausible to be honest. I mean, it's lost every possible scenario that you can. And so, um, they, you know, used our actual skills and advantages of being in nighttime, but they ended up going in making entry. Not very far. I don't think, I don't know the specifics, but they ended up killing like four more guys inside of that cave. And then a suicide bomber vest guy cranked off in there. And blew two of the guys off of the top of the cave that I was on in down into the thing. So a couple of dudes got wounded, uh, long story short, they ended up recovering. Those guys had a hell of a fight getting in there and which is crazy. Cause I talked to some of the unit guys still today. And they're like, dude, that was one of, it was a very memorable time for us because it was intense for us. And we couldn't imagine doing it during the day for you guys. Like, which was another crazy part about that is like, we own the name. Why did we not go in at night? I was going to ask you what led to that decision. We literally waited on the freaking airfield until the sun came up. Did you ever get an answer as to why for that? No. Well, one, one assumption was that our partner force was scared to go in at night because they didn't, they weren't comfortable training on nods, which was, that was like almost all the training we did with them was on nods. Yeah. We cleared some caves on nods and I'm like, it was just, there's so many things in the planning approval process that was just like, I understand that you guys, when you want to get your hands a little dirty, but like at, for what? Yeah. I mean, but at the time, like I'm, I didn't want to question things like that, but I was like, man, I can't believe we're going in with this high of numbers against, against the odds. You know, I mean, we always come in pretty stacked, pretty heavy, but 19, seven to 19 fighters, like that's quite a jump. It's quite a jump. And I don't care how heavy you are, if they have the terrain advantage on you, like it sounds like they did home, you know, home field advantage, one terrain advantage to go with that seems like pre-designated firing positions for them reinforced. I mean, that's how you turn a numerically smaller force into something that you may not be able to untick them out of that terrain. Yeah. Dude. Yeah. I think, uh, the JSOC guys, uh, used their organic assets after, after the fact, when we got everybody out of there and they dropped like 20,000 pounds of bombs on, on that one cave, just to like clear out the rest of the ants, if there was anybody else in there. So. Man. Yeah. Pretty nuts. That's a rough afternoon at work. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Are you out of the woods now with how you feel about it with, yeah. So, you know, I've done a lot of, I've done a lot of work. Um, the pain was a constant reminder for me every day I would wake up, I'd immediately think of, you know, everything that went wrong and all of this stuff. And so once the pain kind of subsided and I was able to start setting goals and living my life and like, really like, you know, I had a problem for a while thinking that like, if I was going to be happy, they somehow I would, I would lose the memories and like, I wouldn't be the same anymore. So I would like always, like, as soon as I would get happy, I would do something to ruin my happiness and be like, no, I need to like cause some chaos or something like that. It was, it was. It was insane thinking like when you're in that space, but, um, eventually like through a lot of work, the whole plant medicine, like ayahuasca ended up like just cracking my shell open. And I think like saving my life, honestly, like the, for the longterm of things and my relationship and all of this stuff. So it took me a while to, to build that new relationship, but once I was able to forgive. I held grudges against people, commanders, against all of that stuff. Decision makers you never even met. Yeah. I totally get it. Yeah. Um, but it was, uh, it was hard and I still have like, so sometimes when I would share my story, especially on earlier days of, of like doing podcasts and stuff, it would, it would jack me up for weeks. I'd relive it. I'd get all of these like weird emotions and all of this stuff. And it'd be so hard to like. Dissipate that energy back, but now it's like kind of how we were talking about like using it good or evil. I, I really realized that like, I'm trying to use this so much for the good side of things. So the reasons why I'm sharing my story is hopes that somebody, one person, one listener, like can get something from this, some sort of life lesson or some sort of comeback and realize that like you can make a change and you can go from the darkest parts of your life to, to now life and like being a good person. Being a good husband, father, dad, whatever it is, like there's, if you do, if you define your life by stuff that's happened to you, it will take you down. Like you have to, you have to look at that as a part of life and you have to look at that as an event that's happened, but like not necessarily move on and forget about it, but, but grow a relationship with it where you can accept it because it's just like that quote that says like, um, what does it accept the things that you cannot change or wisdom? Oh my gosh. I don't know a lot of good quotes. Um, Michael, it's, uh, what does it have the wisdom to accept the things you cannot change? Michael, Google the rest of that. Cause there's something after that. That's the beginning. And I've said it several times. I should know this by now. God grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can and the wisdom to know the difference. Yes. We each together got portions of that wrong. However, we can't be, we are a bunch of dipshits. I opened with almost every episode. So how do you feel about the metal today? Um, where are you going? Fletcher? Oh, come on over. What's up, dude? Um, you know, I put my uniform on. Uh, last November for a veteran's ball that we hosted in Jackson hole. And it was the first time that I actually had like a full stack of metals on my chest in my blues. And I was like, you know what? Like I accept it now. I, if I'm going to wear this in honor of them, I think I can do it for the right reasons. And, um, it's, it's still heavy, but it. You know, it's, uh, people, I don't know. People look up to it now. And if I can be that light and it helps them, they should look up to it and it should be heavy. Yeah. I think if it's ever light, that's probably not a good thing. Right. You know, I got to go back to the Marsock. Uh, I went, I went to the Marsock. I went back a couple of weeks ago to North Carolina. Um, my old unit was giving, getting back from deployment. They had a very comfortable. complex deployment. It was when a lot of strange things were going on with Iran. And, um, they called me and they said, Hey, we want Talon's Reach team to come out and lead like a decompression seminar. And like, which brought me this like immense amount of joy because I'm like, Holy crap, this is going to be full circle. Like I'm going to go back and help these dudes decompress. I don't know how I'm going to do it, but I'm going to figure it out. Like the first active duty program we've ever done. And so like, I got all giddy about it and was like, dude, I get to go back and like maybe mentor some young kids and show them young kids. Like they're, they're adults, but yeah, but they are in, yeah. In hindsight, they, yes, they, yeah, exactly, dude. It was, it was bizarre though, you know, standing in front of them now as, as this person, but I was like, I like, you know, I don't like this term, but like, look, I walked the walk. Like, I'm not just talking the talk, like, but I walked the walk with you guys. And I know that, you know, if I would have known some of these cheat codes, when I was active, I would be that much better of an operator. I'd be that much better of a person. I'd have so much more capacity in my mind to be able to take on more load. Like there's a real thing, like the allostatic load, your, your, your psyche, your physiological body can only take so much stress before it implodes. And so if you don't have a way to like effectively, I don't know, I don't know, I don't know how to do it. I don't know how to offload that stuff. It's just going to keep building and building like a pressurized freaking pressure cooker. And then it's going to have to off gas somewhere. And more than likely, it's going to happen to your family. It's going to happen in shitty situations to a barista. Something, you know, it's like, it's true though. It's got to go somewhere. It expresses itself in a way it comes out at the seams. Yeah. How was it received when you went back and stood in front of those guys? I, I think to them, to the majority, it was very well received because they, they looked at me and they were like, this dude, he has been through it. And he has, you know, like, cause I tried to go back and do some speaking things there when I was a fucking wreck. And it was, I was like, I'm never being invited back to Marsock. Like that was, it was, it was a one for the books for sure. I will never open again. And I was like, it was, it was very embarrassing, but luckily that was only to the, some of the higher level people I was supposed to go do this. It was ridiculous. I can't believe I had this nasty slicked back hair. And like, I was, I was absolutely still drunk from the night before. Anyways, going back now, leading a good example, I've been sober for four years, like all of this stuff, like I'm, I'm living what I'm, I'm trying to preach. And I was telling them like, I'm not, you know, prepping you guys for transition. I really want you to become that much more resilient to all of this stuff that you're going to deal with. Because at one point, yes, you will transition. But however, like you need to be the best operator you can now and how, what steps can you take to achieve that? One is knowledge. Like if you can identify these things early and often, then you can take actions to be able to down-regulate or like find the volume knob to turn these things down. Because so many times we try to find the light switch to just turn it off. And it's with the bottle, it's with working harder, it's with working out harder, which working out is a great tool to, to help down-regulate or whatever. But as soon as you go back home after shooting Carl G's on the range, now you're drinking. It's like, you're only exacerbating or prolonging those, those effects of the battlefield or training field or wherever, you know? So anyways, like we, we did this huge educational seminar with them and then I had them in the grass shoes, socks off doing breath work. Like it was fricking awesome as I had a hundred active duty guys just laying in the grass doing breath work. And I was like, yes, like I have done it. I am back and I'm like, you know, putting my hippie out there. And it was, it was actually, there was, you could tell that there was guys who were like, ah, whatever. But I had every single one of them talk and say, how, how did you feel after that? And you know, maybe some of them only gave me a thumbs up, but some of them were like, that was great. And I really feel like I can relax right now. I was like, and that's it. Like, all you need is one tool going forward. If you can have a little bit of down-regulation, you can have a little bit of, you know, that volume knob to turn down, you can add, you can add more, you can down-regulate, you can add more. It can make them more lethal. I think that's the key to talking to people in that community is I think their worry is, oh yeah, get some, that's Herbamate, get some. Caffeine in here? Yes. Do you like caffeine? I do. There's two, it doesn't, what? You don't have an off switch? Drink that thing. That's your Marine. Don't be listening. There we go. Stigma, it's still alive. That's, I think, the biggest worry in a lot of those communities is if they, we'll say the woo-woo stuff, right? Super broad term, but, and it's not woo-woo, it's just very different to what they're used to, which is ballistic, boom, bang, things going downstream. Good, right? Yeah, it is good. Huberman took me on a bus. That's his company. Oh yeah. So they were worried that you're going to dull the blade, but the reality is, like you said, it gives them the capacity because they can down-regulate and they're not at a 10 all the time. You actually can re-escalate and maybe get yourself an 11. Right. When you need to be. Yes. And then back off or 11 and a half. You can actually get way more lethal by expressing what you need to at the right time and then getting out of that. And of course, I didn't know any of this when I was in whatsoever. Yeah. Because it wasn't being talked about at all. Somebody would have told me for us, I'd be like, oh, let's go lay in the sand right at the beach and put our feet in the sand. Like, fuck off. Yeah. And now it's just now, now I understand what it is that they- We're talking about or what the people are talking about now, because like I said, this was not a topic of conversation while I was in, but it's not, it's not an attempt to dull the blade. It's actually a roundabout way to sharpen it. Yeah. And if they can, if they can wrap their head around that, not only does it allow them to be sharper in the moments where I think it counts the most, I think it extends careers as well too. Yeah. And hopefully by proxy to that, family relationships too, because I don't know what it is in the Marine Corps, or Marine Corps soft, but in, you know, Navy soft, the force rate sky high. Oh yeah. It's unbelievable. Yes. Again, the job suffers last. So you'll kill yourself literally, metaphorically, figuratively for that job. Everything else suffers first. Yeah. So yeah. So wildlife. Yeah, for sure. Man. I wouldn't trade it, but if I, you know, if I knew more about some of this stuff, I would definitely have taken- I would like to say, I would like to say this now. I would feel like I would have taken some of it more seriously. I really wish I wouldn't have drank so much while I was in. And like that, your first chapter opening up to your experience, but dude, you make such good points. It's like, how do you, how do we get like punished with like drinking, but yet say- The opso had three DUIs. Yes. And he's like, oh my God. Listen, everybody, you're out of here. If you drink and drive, kegger at noon, fucking new guys better be the last one. I'm just like, dude, I drove to work. Yeah. Meanwhile, the skipper's name at that time, Captain Morgan. Yeah. Fitting. Navy captain, not Marine Corps captain. Very different things. Yeah. You got to be careful on those phone calls. Cause I call a Navy guy when I was doing my ops job. I'd be like, this is captain so-and-so. I'm like, this is a Navy office or Marine Corps office? Cause these are very, these are very different people that we're talking to. Yeah. Talking to an 03 or an 06 at this point. Yeah. Yeah. No, that was all. It was, it was speaking. It's funny that Urban Monte talking with Huberman, he asked me, cause we were talking about drinking because I was trying to be open about my experience. And it, and again, it's not, it wasn't doctrinal in the military, but it was ingrained culturally. And I've actually heard that the modern day teams have moved away from that, which I think is a net positive. But Huberman said, he goes, I can't believe I'm going to ask this question on my show. His show is, notoriously, first of all, I had to tell him to talk to me like a golden retriever, but notoriously like health maxing, fitness maxing, longevity. He goes, is there an argument to be made for drinking? Yeah. I had to say to him, you know, I've had probably the most embarrassing times in my life, just underperforming the person I wanted to be as a human being because of drinking, but also some of the most hilarious bonding, camaraderie building events as well as social lubricant. When I was younger, me, I can't talk to anybody. I'm going to go talk to that girl. For me, I probably needed a little bit of that. So it's not that I don't want people to have those experiences, but I also don't want them to suffer the consequence. So again, not for me to say either way, I wouldn't take back some of the experiences I had when I was drinking. And I had, I have had, um, a healthier relationship with alcohol. I've always just been able to put it down. Um, there's certainly been times where I've drank more and there's been years where I didn't drink at all. Like at this phase of my life, I might have a glass of wine twice a year. I just, I'm not really feeling interested in drinking. Um, not that it's an unhealthy relationship, just not as interested. I really like sleeping and waking up feeling better. Not everybody's like that. Um, but that culture at the time that I was in, I can see not causal for some of the things that happened later on to people, but almost, everybody of my friends who has made the decision to kill themselves was not sober at the time yeah so there is a correlation there for sure you can't blame that specifically on the military but when your ops officer tells you you have to be the last guy at the kegger we should probably talk about the consequences that too yes yeah for sure yeah you know like sorry bud knife cuts both ways on that one and the hilarious thing is if you were to get a dui you'd be standing in front of that dude as part of the mass process before going to xo i and he'd be asking you why'd you get drunk at work i told you not to drink and drive you also told me i had to be the last person to leave the kegger which one was i supposed to listen to right sir yeah yeah it's yeah god pretty backwards talk to me about talon's reach what do you got going on yeah so and where'd you come up with the name do talons have an inordinately long reach that i am unaware of eagles do okay talon are on their fingertips yes are their toesies yeah they're toesies yeah i like that yeah you have kids i do they're all old now but yeah it's still ingrained you have a four uh boy or girl girl i so my daughter just turned 18 oh man i i struck and she's my youngest yeah my middle son just turned 21 my oldest turns 23 in october i struggle every time that i think of them not to think of them at the age where i was holding them yeah so that's never gonna disappear oh yeah the that comes to my mind that i and i don't know why and maybe that's just the way it is for parents it's when they're super young yeah even though i know she's 18 so i remember the giving her her first bath you know or holding her for the first time it just yeah it's tough so yeah they're she likes to remind me she's no longer a child i'm like listen in the eyes of the law you are no longer a child because you're 18 now and let me just tell you that's all that changed right birthday yes if you mess up they may not call me now yeah that's true yep so you might get to call me from jail as opposed to the cops calling me before you go to jail that's the only difference that's happened right but yeah i've got kids so the eagle toesies are very long yes okay well so and marley by the way absolutely yeah i mean that so anyways before i get in a in a rabbit hole so you know i when you guys were over at six did you guys call each other eagles yes okay so that was like one of those the terms that was burned into my head like the eagle down so um i didn't know if like tier one guys are different you guys i know the cat guys use eagle uh like if they're in the hallway they'd say eagle eagle we would say blue blue but i'm pretty sure yeah when you're talking about casualties or people that were expectant yeah it was eagles yeah so that you know for listeners i guess like eagle is a term during combat operations for usd confliction type of thing you know eagle eagle eagle confirm with eagle eagle eagle um so when we were coming up with the concept of talons reach foundation we didn't know the name that we were going to call it and but i knew i was like hey i want to call the participants eagles i don't know why but it's just it's very fitting to me that like when they come out like this is this is what we can call them not i don't know why we needed a name but we did and uh so then you know going back and trying to look at at names and figuring it out um july 10th of 2017 there was a c-130 that crashed over mississippi and there were 15 marines and one navy corpsman on there or a special amphibious reconnaissance corpsman from marsauk uh seven of those guys were in my company and one of them was talon leach and talon was one of my best friends we went through selection together we went through itc together and i got a call that night in 2017 that i had to go notify the military and i was like oh my god i'm gonna have to go notify his wife and so i had to go i put my service alphas on i went and i knocked on her door and like did the whole nine you know and it was it was one of the hardest things in my military career that i've had to do and because you know i want i was trying to grieve for him then i had to help her and like you know alcohol was a real thing and it was just it was tearing me up but you know i i had to deploy in six months and we ended up leaving and so i i lived you know with that july 10th being like a very like symbolic day for me and uh somebody brought it up and they're like why don't we call it talon's reach and uh you know we can use that as a metaphor for our guys our eagles like using their talons their reach to like you know pick up the the wounded ill injured or you know guys who are struggling um doesn't matter senior junior it's to reach out and and help somebody it's like holy crap that's it like so like our our logo is an eagle talon like the talons like on the globe so it's like we have global reach you know well so then from there it was like we kind of came up with the the concept of of what we want to do and how we want to do it like we were very good at the execution phase of things i i wasn't so good at the the planning phase of things so coming up with a non-profit and figuring out how to raise money and all that shit was like the last thing that i knew how to do but i knew what we wanted to do and we created this program we bring guys out for five days uh we started actually here in bozeman not here in bozeman but down in bozeman um and we we bring them out for five days all expenses paid fly them out first class we get them out um in in a lodge each dude will have their own room kind of like setting the grounds for like a very stress-free environment. So they don't have to worry about anything from travel to where they're going to stay. They don't have to share a room with a snoring teammate or something like that. But anyways, we have this systematic approach to our five days where we educate them on different signs and symptoms that can arise, whether it's PTSD, traumatic brain injury, endocrine dysfunction, sleep irregularities, and all sorts of different stuff. So we've crammed these into three different PowerPoints throughout the week, and then we guide them through holistic modalities to combat that, whether it's yoga, meditation, mindfulness, art, music, all sorts of different things. So it sounds like a lot within five days because it is. It's very intense, very emotionally draining because there's no substances allowed. There's no. There's no alcohol. There's nothing. It's all you, like figuring out how you can use these tools to help downregulate from these certain life stressors. And so like, you know, some people thought, well, it's going to be going there, sharing war stories and this and that. But like, there's very little of that. Like all the storytelling is really like guys just trying to figure out what the hell is going on. And it's great because it kind of couples with all of those different education modules that we do. We've got Dr. Kate Pate. She's a PhD in neurophysiology, comes out, has helped us build the curriculum. She leads most of the education. And we've just like, we've been able to really make a very deep impact. Skipped a section of it, but like with all the education, the modalities, we get them outdoors and we have like two full excursion days, if you will. So we'll go float the rivers. We'll go explore through the mountains or side by side or snowmobiles, season dependent. Mm-hmm. But nothing like too activating, nothing too extreme, more of like a, like we've all, we've been going fast paced long enough. Like this is for you to like slow it down and see like the beauties of the world around you and like have a slow, intentional approach to things. We've done 12 programs, helped 69 operators. We actually just had our first two female SOF operators come through to open the door for our very first, all female SOF program in November. Um, I think it's groundbreaking stuff because it's going to hopefully help us open the door to spouses. Um, one day be able to give back to them because if we can help the whole family unit, like, I mean, the, the impact we're going to have SOF wide is going to be unreal. Um, but yeah, I mean, I mean with five days, no treatment, no diagnosing, no medicine, no nothing like that. It's just like you and yourself and your thoughts and like all of these emotions coming up, learning how to share. Like we've had some profound, uh, impacts on people like life-changing stuff, which is, you know, going from what we were talking about, like how do, how did we lose the purpose along the way? And like lose the identity of who we really are because we get lost in the identity of what we wanted to be. Like as kids with the dream of being an operator, you know, serving, it's like, I lived that and I bred that breathe, breathed, breathed, breathed. Who knows? What is that? The past 10th of past tense and breathe lived and breathed. Yeah. Lived and breathed. Yeah. I'm going to go with that. So it was, you know, that was my life. That's everything that I thought I was ever going to be. And then when I left it, I was like, I will never be anything else, but it's like, no, I've always been Nick Jones. And like, that is who I want to be. I want to be a father. I want to be my myself. And like, that's just what I did and trying to help people relearn that. That is, is more challenging than, than I would have thought. And like how lost people get in that whole like transition, even in active duty, like if they get benched, they get hurt. Like injuries take people back to these super dark places, even though it's like, we know we've, we've recovered from one before. Why is this one any different? Why is it going to set us back so much where we get in this looping pattern of depression or whatever it is, and then just start wrecking shit where it's like, let's, let's identify, let's recognize like that whole OODA loop pattern. Like let's use that to our advantage and start taking decisive actions to enhance our lives and better our situations, building our, building our fighting position as we go. So, I mean, everybody's got a unique story. Obviously we are individuals to a degree, but in those 69 people, are you seeing a lot of similarities in where people are being tripped up or what they're, they're struggling with and dealing with? I think each program has its, um, it's kind of flavor to it on, on what people are struggling with. Some is like some are intense, like family issues, some are transition issues. Um, we have not had like one solid, like, you know, baseline of, of stuff because, you know, we've had some that are all, and it's weird how maybe it's when somebody sets the precedence during like our, our opening circle and the opening, like kind of introduction, if like family is brought up or childhood is brought up next thing, you know, like that's like the, the theme and it's like, everybody's digging into that. Um, so it, it is, it kind of, it, it changes almost every program. And so it's, it's hard to, to know what we're going to get in this next one. You know, it's like what, and that we've, we talk about this on our prep. It's like, what are we going to get on this one? It's like, there hasn't, there hasn't been a very constant theme and we've done 12 of them so far. And, um, yeah, it's, it's been, it's been great. I think maybe because we, we're open to all branches. So we've had everything from, um, we've had, I think two guys from dev grew now, a couple of dudes from Delta, um, several from the teams, Marsock, PJs, CCTs, all sorts of people, green, green berets and Rangers, probably because they're the biggest, those are our biggest clients, if you will. Yeah. Um, seeing the impact you have now, if you were given the choice, if you go back, continue on active or keep doing what you're doing now, knowing what you know now, which one would you take? Well, knowing what I know now I'm on the right path. Um, I've questioned it several times, uh, going back and like seeing the guys and the grind and stuff like that. It's, it's funny because I said to a couple of dudes, like, I wish I could, be where you are. However, I'm very grateful that I get to be where I'm at right now. It's funny. Like, you know, sometimes we, we wish that we had what we don't have, but once you get it, you're like, it's going to be, yeah. And it's like, wait a second, dude, I just, I just backpedaled and ruined all of this progress because I felt like I wanted to chase a dragon again. And, you know, I've had opportunities to go do the, um, anti-child trafficking stuff and contracting and this and that. And then like, I stepped in the ring to go box and do some stuff. And I'm like, I, I wanted, I'm chasing the dragon, dude. Like I wanted adrenaline and all of this stuff. Like I want combat in my life. And then, and then I look at my daughter and then I, I look at my wife and I'm like, oh my God, I don't need to continue proving myself. And actually ayahuasca is one of the ones that slapped me in the face this last time that I went and was like, slow the fuck down. You don't need to prove yourself. Quit trying to prove yourself. Like you don't need to keep getting hit. You don't need to keep putting your family in harm's way. It's funny because I'm saying this out loud. And then in three months, I'm going to find some crazy thing. And I'm gonna be like, I should go do this. And then my wife's going to slap me and be like, well, she doesn't hit me. But it's, you know, it's one of those, I don't know. It's, it's interesting, but I do. I think that I've, I've talked to people before and I fantasized about going back in and people bring up the same question. Like, well, you know, you wouldn't be here doing what you're doing now. So would you give, give that up? And I'm like, well, no, because I feel like I've saved lives now, like truly impacted, like real impact. Cause sometimes over there, it's hard to see like the bigger impact, the third order effects that we're actually doing. You know, there may be none. Yeah. I mean, let's be honest. Taking a life is not hard. Yeah. Investing in somebody and saving one. It's a lot harder. Yeah. Can be. And I think probably more meaningful. It's a, I think you have the ability now to probably have a greater impact on the world. Than you ever would have behind the sights of a rifle. As odd as that to say, you know, looking back on that type of career, which I wouldn't give back for anything, but I guess I didn't realize until afterwards, the impact is real, but it's, it's very limited and it's scope. Whereas what you're doing now, you may never actually be able to quantify the scope because you won't know how far in that cascading downstream of if a father or husband is still here, the impact that that will have on other people. For the remainder of their life. Tough to quantify that. Yeah. What else turns your screws? What else are you getting at? I mean, you're young. You're like, yeah. 20 years old. Yeah. Yeah. I feel sometimes I feel like it again. No, no, I'm not. It's I'm, yeah, it's funny. I'm dealing with all these injuries and kinks and stuff and. Oh, don't worry. That only gets worse. Yeah. Yes. I've, I've heard. Especially as you, he has found his way into, very good. Yeah. Which he hasn't trained in weeks cause he has CC shoulder. Yeah. Yes. I've been there. Um, so yeah, like, you know, I've, I've been chasing the dragon. I've found endurance sports, trail running became one of my like great escapes and I did a 50 miler last year. I'm not getting on board with any of this. Best thing about getting shot is never having to run again. Yeah. Well, it's, I told him, I was like, I want to run. I hated running. I hated the Marine Corps and I want to do it now. Nope. Nope. Nope. Nope. Just learn to fight. Yeah. Running required. Yeah. And I think, you know, I started running because it was one of those challenges that was like, when they told me I wouldn't be able to do it again, I was like, I'm doing it. Yeah. And then when I tried, I tried jujitsu several times, I was actually an extreme hater on it before because I thought it was super gay and only 87% of it is. Yeah. The other 13% is super masculine, super masculine. It's just, it's neutral. Yes. Yeah. Oh, I love it. I didn't, I resisted it so hard because as I was leaving the community and even when I moved up here, my buddy got me into it, but I have the, if people are over excited about one particular thing, I'm required to hate it or not participate. Like you're so enthusiastic that I hate whatever it is that you're doing. And I'm going to talk shit on it. And I don't even know what it is. Maybe this is just the younger me. I don't know. I don't know if I've changed that much. So I resisted it for so long. I think I started training when I was 41. Okay. And now I'm like, God damn it. I could have started this in the late nineties. Yeah. And I'd be whooping people's asses. Oh yeah. Yeah. I know. It's, it's embarrassing. Maybe when a young kid comes in there and it's like, and they just roll me up and they're like, a woman that's like half my size. And I'm, well, I mean, that'd be really light, but like several pounds lighter. A nerd assassin rolls in who's like a CPA and in his lunch hour just pretzels you. And it's humbling, but also kind of inspirational. Like, Oh, you can do that. I'm going to learn how to do that too. And like, I used my aggression and strength and tried to just like put myself in these positions. And I'm like, wait a second, dude. Like I am like, I'm overworking. These people are like, and just waiting for me to tense up and do this. And then I'm like, Oh, my back and get thrown. And I'm like, dude, this is, this is crazy. So it's like that technical aspect, much like the boxing was, it's like, okay, I, I, I do actually enjoy this. Yeah. And a part of the turned me away was anytime somebody touched my leg was like laser beams in my, down my leg. So is that getting better? It is getting better. It's like almost desensitizing. I still have a problem with no gi when somebody touches like my bare skin. It, it, maybe it's a mental thing and maybe I could wear like a leg guard or something. You've heard of spats, which is basically a lower body rash guard. Okay. You could wear them sometimes. Uh, I have some and I'll use them if we're going to go to, shall we say less, perhaps more sus gyms where the cleanliness and you know, everybody, Oh, don't wash your belt. You're going to lose the magic. I'm like, listen, I don't believe in magic, but I believe in staff. Yeah. One of those is super real. So I'm going to go ahead and wash my belt on the hottest temperature I can. And so I don't even know necessarily if it is a cleanliness thing but it could be an additional layer right uh and you just throw them on under your shorts yeah yeah and uh that might help for you yeah it would at least be an additional layer yeah and also tell your training partners just be up front with them be like listen i got an issue with my uh with my right leg and if you if you have high quality training partners they should completely be able to work around that yeah i bet you it actually would desensitize it over time yeah i think it has been or maybe you know i'm i'm getting less like that that brain pain connection is is starting to break and it's like if you're not actually in pain you're not you know it's like over time when somebody touches it i'm like okay it's it's not there but i don't know we'll see yeah um another i guess fun thing that i've i've picked up in the recent years is the uspsa matches which is another thing that i've i've picked up in the recent years is the uspsa matches which is another one of those like gaming practical application shooting something that i can't believe we didn't do earlier in the military like we think that it's it's not like you know it's not tactical shooting however like it's so fast and it's actually a lot of fun a lot of carryover too yes doesn't have to be all you don't have to carry a race gun yeah solid foundations are solid foundations yeah i mean i use a glock just because i'm i'm stuck in my ways and i don't want to get away from it but i love it um i'm definitely it's one of those things it's very humbling because there's either fat people or kids that will beat me and i'm like it's just it's just nuts dude yeah i'm like yeah like they're literally playing video games and they know how to game this this whole system and it's one of those things where i'm just a big brute that goes in there and i'm like i'm just gonna smash it and then i try to move too fast and overstep and do this stuff so really but it's it's really cool like those technical aspects of these sports like i'm i'm getting into i'm trying to stay as young as i can and you know keep up with that and i can't wait for my my daughter to get get older she's really into frozen and all this stuff and i'm like like pointing at the tops of mountains i'm like well frozen lives up there so me and you are gonna go hike up there and then we've got to hunt our way there and i'm trying to get her into the hunting aspect do you have all the songs memorized yet uh pretty much yeah yeah that's how you know that you have a daughter my god yeah oh yeah yeah my god my two sons they love the movie spirit okay of course i think i've seen it a thousand times matt damon is a horse essentially uh i mean obviously you're early in the business phase with what you got going on in jackson hole with the shooting do you have any other aspirations or any other types of business that interest you or are you going to obviously get one going and sustaining first and then move on yeah yeah i mean all the the mentors down there they've got their hands in all sorts of different entrepreneurship stuff um but my wife would definitely be upset if i tried to invest in something else right now so i'm going to build this up to a very sustainable uh business to where who knows maybe the next adventure would be to branch off and build one in bozeman or something like that but it's right now my wife has been self-employed for a long time fitness and nutrition coach um she sells like uh bioactive peptides and like all these like health conscious types of things and she's like i'm busy but we try to we really try to balance and as soon as like we're home it's like cut off from everything like if we're putting our hands in too many pots like we won't be there for our daughter yeah we've got one daughter and we want to do it right so um you know that's one of those things it's like if there is balance i want to find it and i want to learn what it is um but i don't i don't know you know there's got to be you have to sacrifice time you have to sacrifice time in business but you also have to sacrifice from business to go be with your family i think that that's where the balance comes in is like how successful do i want to be do i want to you know try to kill myself growing a multi-million dollar company or do i want to be a family man i don't know it's so hard to say because i have such expensive hobbies that yeah i need to make money so you don't have to have an answer to that right now though either to me when i was younger money was more about acquiring things and then i i think i came to the realization that many people do the things are cool but once you have acquired them it's less it's you could the it's almost the idea of what you want is really cool right and then you get it and it is still cool and then it's less cool because you have it and you can access it whatever you want to my theory now money is i just want to make enough money so i can do what i want to with my time yeah so i can say no it's my favorite opportunity it's like not today yeah just another nope that's my answer to your yeah your business you want to do this nope you don't want to i would rather some people and i and i know everybody knows somebody who's like this their their answer to how much money do you want to make is just more right and that's a tough one and i'm not here to tell anybody how to live their life and if you want to do that by all means please do but i don't know how fulfilling that is when it's just this is what you have but what you need to have or you tell yourself is a little bit more and more and more i just want to be able to spend time with my family and and have memories yeah not worry about pay obviously like enough money where i've done the years in literally years weeks days months of how am i going to pay for groceries so we're gonna have enough money for the more i've been there i've done that i would say 10 out of 10 don't recommend but also it gives you an appreciation for later in your life when you don't have to do that so clearly make sure your bills are solid and then for me it's like what are we going to do with this that will be meaningful right that's really all i care about at this point took time though and a lot of mistakes got a lot of mistakes yeah don't ever sit down and try to recalculate how much money you have spent on bad decisions because it's really a bummer oh yeah yes yeah yeah i might have checked for that can i have that back please 10 of that back i'd really like to make better decisions with that money yeah man man it is what it is yep so you're staying up here for tonight i'm gonna stay here tonight head back hopefully through a clear skies tomorrow it's been so smoky everywhere up here it's ridiculous man tomorrow today's tuesday right yeah wednesday thursday friday i think it's a greater than 50 chance of rain both of the all three of those days i hope if it just could knock it down just a touch yeah yeah yeah it's been pretty wild um hopefully we get a wetter winter this year yeah they're saying it's a super nino which i don't know what that means i don't either last year was an el nino and i didn't know what that meant either yeah so i don't think they do either i actually don't either it's funny because when i got to jackson they're like this is going to be the heaviest winter we've had in years and then there was no freaking snow do you guys have a shit year too oh yeah yeah there was exposed gravel on the summit near new year's day that's nuts yeah i'm not going up to that with my snowboard no i mean i you know i like my snowboard and i don't like that yeah that it makes when you go on rocks yeah yeah and then that ice effect yeah dude it was wild it was a it was a very bad year um we've had about three in a row up here that i definitely gonna have a great one but i don't think that's how that works yeah is it fletcher he's stretching uh so two we've been at it for almost three hours two questions for you and i can get you and fletcher out of here stretch it out nice don't worry about it i love it uh the for-profit business where can people find you for that and then the non-profit business where can people find you for that yeah so the for-profit jackson hole shooting experience um the website is a little bit more simplified it's shoot in jh.com okay um we've got a instagram we're working on like remodeling or remodeling um rebranding and changing some stuff up so things will change but there's a little bit more beautification and some stuff so if you look up our social medias just look up the instagram the other ones i wouldn't even pay any attention to right now the instagram is a very long handle it's jackson hole shooting experience um not very uh appeasing to the eyes but it's that's what it is it also is what it is yeah as far as exactly yeah um and then for the non-profit uh talonsreachfoundation.org um if if there is video on this it's right here so talonsreachfoundation.org we've got a probably has the video camera the dog somebody's completely lost interest in um we've got uh instagram linkedin facebook um website all that stuff we've got donation links on our website um yeah and then i think that's it what do you want to leave people with um well you know i'll i want to give i guess another plug to your book because there's a lot of life lessons in there that people can can learn from but like you've said it in there you've said it here we've both said it is like i think a part of of life that is very challenging for people anybody like in business and life and all of that stuff like is taking that first step but then continuing that momentum not just trying to step through that threshold and staying in a danger area like you have to gain momentum and you have to keep moving um i was on a run the other day and was like dude i found this cheat code to life like everybody was looking looking for cheat codes and i was like i found this cheat code and it's literally move forward, look up, move forward, look up, because everybody's trying to, you know, look forward, but they're looking down and then they're taking a step back. It's like, no, pick your fucking head up, look forward and, or look up and move forward. Like that's it. Like upright, upright, upright, whatever gamers you guys want to talk about, like that is it. And then like, secondly is, you know, if, if you're struggling with addiction, you're struggling with alcoholism or anything in life, like if you feel like life is just heavy at any moment, like you are not a burden, it is okay to ask for help. It's not weakness. Like I don't have some fancy, like quote worthy statement right now, but it just like, it's funny because I want to say, don't be a bitch and ask for help. But I also want to say like, you're not a bitch if you ask for help. Yeah. The exact opposite. Yeah. It's like, we think that it's going to create, we think that it by another thing is like asking if you feel like you see somebody that's hurting and you're afraid that they want to take their life, you're not going to hurt them or make them suicidal. If you ask them, if they're suicidal, I'm going to reinforce that. Don't beat around the bush. If you approach somebody as well to be direct and get to the point, it's, uh, you may save their life. You beating around the bush though, doesn't help anybody. Ask them, say the hard thing, ask them directly. Yeah. It's yeah. I've, I've lost friends to their own hands and a big contributing factor was alcohol. And I'm not going to say that that was the only thing, but it, it's a poison and it's, I mean, there's so many things that I could say, but like, I just want, you know, I want to reiterate the fact that like asking for help, man, is like, is one of those biggest things, whether it's business, whether it's life, whether it's mental, mental fortitude, mental strength, whatever it is, like, there's so many things that like, you don't have to carry it alone and you're not alone. Like that, it's a, that statement right there. Like you are not alone is one of the biggest things that for me, I felt like I was alone through all of these struggles, through business, through life, through marriage, through all of that. And I'm like, well, wait a second. Like this dude over here, like he's, he's been through it. Like, why don't I just ask for help? Like, I'm not going to hurt myself. I'm not going to hurt him. Like, and you'd be surprised how many people welcome you with open arms. So I agree, man. Anyways, right on. Yeah. Well, let's get you back to Lauren's house. Yeah. Fletcher's sick of our shit anyway. He's just like, I've stretched several times. It's time for me to go pee. Thanks for making the drive. Yeah. Thank you for having me out.