The Wave Transition With Owner & CEO Julian Topham

[Music] So this is the original blue front door from the film Notting Hill. The last time I came through this, there were rather a lot of press people outside. [Music] If Hollywood needs an updated Hugh Grant for a reboot of Notting Hill, they might do well to call Julian Topham. Well spoken, charming, with good looks to boo, we could easily picture Julian and Jason Thanex, Julia Roberts. Like most rom-com formulas, the story's about passion. [Music] Relationship ending plot twists. [Music] But we are still waiting for the tear jerking ending. I don't know, maybe it's already happened. Maybe I was lied to on my life and rom-coms don't accurately reflect the world we actually live in. As the way Bristol finds its footing, post-ownership change, the story is still very much being written, so apologies as there are no neatly tied up closure statements here. In the spirit of truth revealed through long-winded open conversation, we've left this podcast a bit raw. Yes, I ask questions. Julian answers those questions, but he also asks me a lot of questions, which I'm not always comfortable with. A good podcast at it, like a vintage 90s rom-com, has a clearly defined beginning, middle, and end. This story, however, is still being written. [Music] [Music] Yeah, um, sorry I'm just looking at buttons. No, don't worry, you get a bit. And also I've got a little bit of a, I had been asking for a little bit poorly last week, so I've got a bit of a croaky throat, so I hope that's not going to be um, to annoying or whether you can chop it out, it is really annoying. No, no, it sounds great. Much of our audience is half our audience is American, so they'll find that charming British accent, so you can know that's going to work, is it? Yeah, if you slip anything, we're intelligent. It's the best illusion ever. Totally, totally. You can slip into a Cockney accent, they won't know the difference. Going to a Northern or Jon Snow accent, they might like that as well. Right on, well, cheers, it's good to meet you, Julian. Very good to meet you, very good to meet you. So yeah, it's good to be a part of this sector. Yeah, it's um, it's pretty interesting and talking about that, talking about your, your background and how you came into this position. Let's, let's talk about that, let's let listeners understand what you did before and how that parlay is into into what you're doing now. Yeah, okay, so I started out, I started, I started running a surfing event back in 1999 that then became, being bored most as festival in the UK and it's now a very, very big, I think, second or third biggest festival in the country. And really it was about, we took on the rights to an ASP World Tour event at that point, but what it gave us is a license to, to kind of run and operate the beach, which meant beach bars and everything else and kind of quite quickly we figured out that the surfing was a cost and the opportunity to bring revenue in was by the beach bar and all the uncillary things. So it was an exercise in filling a beach bar as much as anything else and in year two people would leave the beach bar at five o'clock and the following year we put on DJs at five o'clock and you know that kept people there for longer and the the beer take was bigger and all the rest of it and it kind of grew and grew and grew and grew. We put on bands, we did full concerts and now in a by the end it was 65,000 people weekend camping and we took that model of sort of action sports end-to-tame music and replicated it. We had a skate and beer mix event we did called NAS, we did a big snowboard and music event called Freeze Festival and so that was my that was my business of 23 years which I I then sold out or we sold it to a big festival company. Since then I've done some some other ventures I chair surfing England which is a charitable role and and along that journey I've obviously known about the wave since day one and I've been in the house for many many years and you know through the interaction with with boardmosses and the wave as businesses you know obviously it became aware it's a small sector that there was there was there was difficulties and challenges and making this business work so kind of bit by bit I got more involved in that conversation. Okay so a long time long time commercializing surfing I would say okay and in looking at that do you what are some of the parallels between filling a beach bar and filling wave garden legoon cove? Yeah so do you like I think a surprising amount actually because what we what we got very good at is a kind of building a business from the ground up but building a business around surfing and more broadly around surf culture and around the way that people could experience surf culture and you could make that kind of work commercially and then beyond that how you also made it accessible to a much broader market you brought people into it who wanted to kind of touch and feel that that world the magic of the surf the surf sector the surf culture we live within so and I think a lot of that is applicable to this you know you you look at it on the one hand on a sort of two-dimensional level and it's like you switch on your wave machine and it puts on waves of any different shape and size you want people come and surf you know that's that's one aspect of it but I'm not sure you know you're probably going to get 60% occupancy doing that but really the question is how you squeeze the pips and you get 80 90% occupancy but also how the rest of the site works what that experiences how non-surface will come here and enjoy it still and that really is is a massive part of what Bristol particularly is about as a sort of out of town surf retreat if you like so so actually the sort of the journey I went on and building it from the ground up and taking those customer journeys is I think surprisingly applicable and obviously having spent 20 odd years to 25 years in the surf sector that just you know you know it inside out you've got relationships which are all very very helpful and you understand I guess the rules and codes of the community and you live with it so it's kind of it's it's simple to act within it okay and then did you ever like in your your wildest dreams just kind of think that okay I'm filling a bar at an event at the beach you know I'll be this this works it away Paul as well well I didn't necessarily get that for the thought process it was always more kind of a little bit more hands mouth but the but what I definitely did think is that you know we would we would trade our entire business and this was a you know this was a 15 million pound turn over festival and we would trade the entire thing over four days and that was risky because you know the weather you know it plays ball or doesn't play ball you've got you know you've got kind of huge commercial impact in that so I forever dream to having something that was a bit more static that you could you know that you could kind of work with and mold and you know play with the levers a little bit more whereas an event it appears and disappears and then you're kind of scratching your head off to it going god what are we going to do next year and you know you're trying to capture so many things and then you get another you know 12 months later you have another go improving it and then it it rolls again so it's a okay it has challenges I've craved something else okay and and it sounds like the similarity there is that they're very there's millions of pounds involved in in both does that add to kind of your stress levels your quarter zone levels how do you deal with that running an event and then running a multi-million dollar wave pool yeah I mean they both you know we run multiple events so they were both you know the my previous business was of a similar scale to this business so all the kind of operational level it's it's kind of well in my wheelhouse and I think what I've you know I'm also someone who's built business from the ground up and to some extent with a restart here this is this is a bit of a process in kind of rebuilding or or continuing the evolution of what it you know what it already is so I feel very comfortable with that journey and it's a it's a journey of discovery right the sector is so young you know it's fascinating you know even at the surf park summit you know a few weeks ago seeing the evolution of the business models and you know the directions that the people are taking and you know things are starting to stabilize are starting to be consistency whereas you know when the first kind of outliers go out and it's like you know my early festival days with all these different mad projects and eventually formats and structures and strategies sort of stabilize and become consistent and everyone starts to look a little a little bit more like each other so you know and and that sort of deris it so I think the journey of you know the journey of evolution here and figuring out how to make the business work around the wave pool which is you know what's here is amazing at some right is it's exciting I don't find that daunting at all I think by virtue of what this this wave has been through it's a sort of recapitalized business if you like and and I think one of the sort of massive challenges for the early part of the sector is just that how you how you capitalize these wave pools right you know they're enormously expensive to build and there's got to be some significant capital uplift somewhere so you know to pay down the cost of these pools because pushing waves is going to be is not necessarily going to do or is not going to provide a good return on investment okay well let's let's segue into how you came about this role like how you became CEO at the wave and do you do you want to explain to our listeners how that how that process happened yes I mean I've seen the I've seen the way since its inception. It was a mad idea of Nick Houndsfield, and I've known him from the industry for many, many years. And then, substance to that, we've had a relationship between Mike Festival, Ball Masters and the waves of business. We have cost promotions and various things. It was known in the industry and it was evident coming here as a customer that it just had financial challenges. That was a fairly well-known fact. And it came to a head about a year ago and became obvious that perhaps this was leading at these people coming in some mountable challenges. And I was contacted by the administrators that it was going through a process, and there was going to be a restructure or an administration process of sorts, and kind of put my hat in the ring. And I'd sold my business at that point. I had a couple of years out. It felt like a good project. And somewhere that was very important to me, I've been a surfer of my kids. It's a complete community hub. You meet my 25 years of work contacts here. Every time I come here, you bump into people of old. And it just felt like something that needed to be put back on its track and find a good future. So I was most of it where that was most of it. I had confidence in my journey within the sector and that I could apply it to this. So I'd bid in within the administration process and convince that the kind of the key stakeholders in the administration that I had a good plan for it and people went with it. So I became the owner. And then within that transition, I know it was kind of tumultuous and there were stories online, wave pool and grape in the UK to close. And it was really kind of detrimental. And then back and forth, there were from two distinct camps emerged throughout the separation process. And we've been in contact with both. Is there anything you want to clear out maybe from the BBC articles or the Beach could articles? Yeah, I think I'm not so much on the articles. You know, we took a view through that process that we just we weren't going to comment. We're following instructions. You're following a process. So we kind of stayed away from that. I think the sort of, you know, I think what I can explain and kind of set out is that it's, you know, the administration process is a very, very kind of blunt tool for what essentially was a very complicated into group sale of sorts of a business that wasn't prepared for such. And as such, it's, you know, it's it's it's it's highly complex and there were elements of it that weren't designed to be separated. And the certainly none of it was sort of plan to be separated as such. So you've got, you know, anything from things like sort of system ownership to where staff got and very mind, this is two companies separating. So things are spanning both sides of that company. You've got staff, you've got payment systems, you've got where insurance is who pays for the insurance. You've got website bills, you've got capitalized project, you're into company loans, you've got, you know, a really, really complex matrix of things that got to be unpicked at speed and at the same time. So we're opening our doors and trying to kind of get them open and trade because we've got to build the future of the business and we've got customers who booked surfs and rest of it. So I think I think really the sort of it's just incredibly complex and with that, you know, your stories were put out and it's it's very hard to explain what's actually going on, you know, with all it following the guidelines of advisors lawyers and obviously the, you know, the independent administrators who are running the process and working through it piece by piece. It took time and sometimes a painfully long amount of time and it's complex and it's sensitive. So, you know, so it wasn't without its challenges, but we worked, you know, well with the other group over a long period of time for complex issues and we know we've now got to a point where those are all resolved. So it's kind of onwards and I think for both of us, we can look forward to they've got important projects that they're, you know, building and developing and you know, we've got Bristol to get back on its feet and make sure the kind of future looks solid. So it was, yeah, and it was a, you know, it was, as I said, it was a complicated process. Yeah, yeah, I know and at the time there were a lot of heard feelings. There were employees who were unsure for that period where the wave was closed. Look, looking back, is there anything that you would have done differently? No, I think the sort of, because you don't know the answers, you can't communicate. And I think that, and then we chose with that to just kind of keep our heads down and keep working on the process because we knew eventually we would get there and the quicker we, the harder we work, the quicker we got, the quicker we communicate and sort of relieve the pain. You know, I think that, you know, the two big areas were obviously staff and team, well for the business going forward so you can maintain that and customers, the customers who bought an enormous amount of pre paid service in the form of what we had as bundles and also vouchers and stuff that were just booked in that people have bought online that were booked for a future date. And I think one of the really hard one, the challenging parts is that we took much longer than we wanted to to be able to go back to those customers and explain what was going to happen. And whilst we went out, you know, with a clear position that everything was going to be honored and people were going to get their service, no one's going to lose money, which we've done 100%. We couldn't give actuals to it. So, you know, a month went by and people couldn't access their bundles and they wanted to come and surf and they perhaps got to buy another surf and they've still got these credits and and that obviously just caused tensions. At the same time, you know, the customer base was so incredibly like supportive of what A, what we were going through, going through B, I think the sort of a reset philosophy that became clear, I think primarily through our change in the pricing structure. And I kind of kind of, you know, I think a change in culture, and I'm someone who's been in the industry for a long time and I think the wave makers and the team here got back, you know, got behind the fact it was kind of an independent company again and it just changed the spirit of the overnight. And everyone seemed to really light and the customer supported that and they gave us just the bandwidth to sort of resolve things and it was a, you know, it was a really, really challenging but kind of rewarding and very humbling process to go through because we were just given a lot of support. It was that, you know, it's not me being given the support. It was the power of the wave, the power what's being built here and the team that run it. Okay, okay, you mentioned like your role as CEO and owner. So are you you're running it, you own it, how did you, how did you you purchased it with the sales from your other business. This is and you you wanted this particular wave pool. Yeah, exactly, yeah, okay. And then so so why the wave and why not like, okay, starting new development somewhere else with a similar amount of money. Well, I mean, a the sort of, you know, the figures to build a new one, you know, an awful lot bigger than taking on this one. So and I know as an aside in the kind of two, three years before getting involved in this, I was exploring some kind of hotel based, surf hotel based kind of concepts and all of which kind of segwayed into this. And I think it's about that point. It's just this is a really important place. It's a really, really important place for the, for the surf community at large in the UK and much as much as we feud, we also are, you know, there's ingrained friendships and, you know, and a very, very big community here, which I've been a part of for a long time. It's just it was, it was just a really good project to get into and get behind and it felt that, you know, you know, and a lot of people commented on when the day that it closed and how, you know, the kind of heartache that that people felt around that and it felt like it was just a really important thing to reestablish it. You know, commercial that was interesting. I think is it's only the kind of the very, very hills of its journey. So I think there's a long way to go with it, which is exciting. And I think culturally it's very, very symbolic and important and iconic and we need to kind of make it so. So, you know, so there was a, you know, there was a kind of a quest there to cement its place in the future. And you know, and what a fascinating sector and this is a six year old surf box, so we walk into, you know, one of the most advanced, you know, operating systems in the surf part market and that that and its own right is interesting because there's a world of opportunity out there. Yeah. And I think for for listeners who haven't been to the wave, one thing you notice when you when you walk from the parking lot to the main hub there is it's very, it's very kind of warm inside a lot of people know each other. You walk out toward the pool, you see people, you know, talking to friends gathering, it's very much a social gathering place and someone is always saying someone that they know I always end up bumping into someone I know. And you have the added cultural integration, I guess with you know, some of your, your surf coaches and your lifeguards, I mean, that was their first water experience was at the wave learning to surf and the wave and they go on and come coaches and such. So it's a very ingrained culture as far as like a lot of the wave pools that I visited and that's truly unique. I think I think it's really unique. I think that's right in this sort of you know, this kind of homegrown wave pool surface here of very good surface. And I also think you know as you know, as just my eyes were opened, you know, back to the surf box summit again, eyes were open as to when I kind of what's going on in the wider sector. I hadn't appreciated that I walked into Bristol and was really just focused on Bristol. And I think what you start to realize is that these are going to be there's going to be a lot of wave box and as they become kind of new. numerous, you know, the ability to build those kind of cultural roots, I think is going to become harder and harder. So I think Bristol will also have a very unique place in being, you know, the first of the kind of real, you know, future generation wave parks. And that's a direction of travel for us. Like how do we, you know, it won't be the biggest or the shiniest. And, you know, I've just seen the Virginia Beach development and it's, you know, it's absolutely kind of mind blowing. And Bristol, as you, as you've been here, is so far removed from that, but it has something really, really magic. And I think it has something magic that others will struggle to replicate. And as the sector grows and they become, they multiply, I think it'll be even harder to replicate that. So, you know, I think the big, you know, the, you know, the, the journey here or the sort of vision is to how do we sort of unlock that? How do we repurpose that, make it commercially viable and make it and secure its kind of future as a, as a business and a place in a cultural destination. Okay. And it's that is that gathering spot. That's what we will always be. We won't be the biggest wave, but we'll be a gathering spot, I think, like no other. Okay. And let's, I'd like to go on in your short time as CEO of the wave. I want to go back to your, to your kind of learning curve. What, you know, there's the kind of rabbit, rabbit, vertical, possibly at the, what, or some things that stood out, like what took you by surprise where, where you're like, okay, I'd kind of planned for this. This one thing was way more difficult than I anticipated. And I had planned on this other thing being difficult, but it in fact was easier. What is something that just kind of like a few things that stood out to you? So the operation of the business was daunting. And I inherited the, you know, when we talk about that, the way the company separated the entire operating team, you know, head office, you know, one side and operating team were kind of the other side. The operating team, you know, so they continued with, with the new venture and they were just phenomenal, absolutely kind of phenomenal. And so that was so much easier. And I just got the benefit of six years worth of developed systems that really would have taken six years to redevelop it we'd had to. So that, that side of it was really, you know, was amazing. And what I've subsequently learnt is that our kind of operations process and our health and safety systems and our safety systems on the lake are really second to none. So that was a sort of win. What I also kind of probably overlooked is, I think you look at these things and you kind of think, you know, you switch your machine on and, you know, the waves roll and you set your size and the surface turn up. And what I've, you know, come to understand is the complexity of segmenting customer groups, identifying different wave types, profiles of people that are going to surf on them. And that's actually then changing from, you know, rather than just kind of pushing waves, the experience and the sort of social journey of why people come and engage with it. So the, you know, they're kind of logical is you just put on an advanced setting and you got 20 spots and you sell them. But what you get into very quickly is it's not really about that. It's about the pathway that people taking within that surfing journey. And, and that's how people engage with it with the wave park differently. So, you know, so it's about where you're going to get to or you're on a kind of a static path or it's about social cohesion. So the way you appeal to customers and develop custom relationships, the way you program your wave mix, the way people interact with your, with your business and your effort and your being, your residential is kind of completely different and much, much more complicated. And if we take, let's say, an hour slot out for a pathway that's going to run every Tuesday evening at 6 p.m. where the wave type may be changing because people are progressing from beginning to intermediate to advance. You know, you've taken a whole piece of inventory off market that you've now got a target package and sell to a specific group of people that are sort of isolated from the people who just come and surf on a kind of regular basis. So you've got a much, much more complicated matrix of relationships with your customers than I ever anticipated. And as you play around with that wave mix, your inventory, you know, the hours of surf, you know, 95% of your of your generated revenue, you know, you're, you're kind of, you know, so you're casting the future of what you could or could not earn by those decisions and the price at which you set them at. So that aspect of it has been fascinating and infinitely more complex and complicated than I, than I ever anticipated. And is now something that we're going very, very kind of heavy on embarking on how we can simplify that process and build tools. And I think you've very know a little bit about our kind of wave scapes and IP system, how we can build tools to simplify that process. And we've, we've set up a project and we're looking at, you know, how we can scrape data and redefine data and start to simulate because to think that everyone else is going to be doing that around the world is kind of mind bubbling, you know, and systems will do it better for us in time, but they don't exist. We've got to build everything first hand. Yeah, that's really interesting. It sounds like the opposite of like, okay, we've got this event. It's a beautiful day. Everyone's going to turn out. It sounds much more nuanced. Much more nuanced that bit, you know, that bit's easy bit, you know, kind of, you know, the kind of the fairy dust, the events, all the, you know, all the extra bits and pieces, you know, that, that's that for me feels very straightforward. It's the core of your, the way you engage your customers and you make it, you know, open and accessible for your new surface and then you take them on that journey and you, you know, they become regular customers and that's the absolute kind of heartbeat of all. Yeah, yeah. And I've discovered that in conversations with CEOs and surfops managers at waypools around the world is that typically that is like the, the, the magic is all the subtleties that, you know, you, you read about a waypool and a, in a newspaper and it's like this waypool opened up, it's going to be filled. But there are all these like tiny layers, hourly slots seven days a week that require very special attention. I think it's exactly it and it was kind of, you know, again, it was polarized, you know, because this, I've referenced surfops some of the game, but it was where you kind of see the, you know, the kind of the pool, the ecosystem of the wave part world in it's kind of entirety. And it was really fascinating, you know, there was an operator's group and we talked specifically about health and safety and operating type, type subject matter, but it's really interesting how different the conversation is between people who are operating and people who are planning to operate and there's an entirely different level there because, you know, as you get into the weeds of what running these things kind of, you know, really takes, and if you, you know, there'll be business models where these things are just play tools in the middle of very, very big developments and perhaps they're not trying to squeeze the pips out of, you know, what it culturally represents or how busy their lake is. But for us, you know, it's the original ones and in others that I was talking to it's, you know, it's really, really vitally important. We've got to make these things sing, you know, and you've got to be absolutely in the kind of minutiae of detail about how you're programming it and who's it appealing to and what's their journey and what's their interaction and the stickiness is because they come with friends, not necessarily because of the wave you're pushing. So it's all about developing all those really, really kind of soft the social aspects of it around the outside of it, more so than the pushing the waves. You mentioned that having the conversation between actual operators and people who were going to be operators and just the, what they were realized that they had to do and I'm imagining people just going pale and thinking about other other other job tactics and stuff. So let's talk about what, what changes you are, you're bringing to the wave. Like what wasn't there? What once you once the dust had cleared, once you got everything back up and running and you know you're mentioning some of these new answers. What else are you bringing to the wave that maybe wasn't there before? Well, the sort of the top of my list is probably a car park. Everyone's been struggling with that. You still have the holes. Well, we got the putt holes. It's now sort of I've seen a Facebook images of people kind of been, you know, swimmers being kind of dropped in there, superimposed into our into our putt holes. Yeah, I was surprised to learn how much it cost to fill the holes. Yeah, the putt holes are expensive. I know about 50,000 to do kind of a quick, a quick, actually, face, face lift that the won't last very long in our current climate. That'll do a few months. But no, for those that don't know, I mean, I still, when I have to explain it to people, I'm mesmerised by how ridiculous it sounds, but I'll car park is one kilometer from the clubhouse effectively. So every customer has to walk one kilometer up a very nice track, which if you're in the right soulful mood as a pleasant experience, if you've got family in turn, it's raining and you've had a surf and you're walking back to your car, it's not such a pleasant experience. So the kind of, you know, the absolute primary is that we want to move that up onto the site and we've got very supportive council who hope you're going to help us do that. And I think, you know, I think the interesting thing is it's, is Bristol now is a kind of a reverse development. So, you know, we didn't have, we don't have the infrastructure, the modern wave park would typically build into its business plan to underpin the wave itself and the capsule requirements of building that wave, you know, where they'll have the big, rezy schemes, you know, the, you know, the, the, the eth and be the restaurants, the co-working, all the rest of it. So here we've got this beautiful lake out in the rolling hills and we've got a retrospectively build that infrastructure. Yes, it's about a car park and the functionality of that customer experience, but also about residential and how we get people to stay on site. One of the things we're looking at for this summer is taking temporary camping licenses that you can use in this country for 60 days and opening up two more fields which will significantly increase the capacity and just having a kind of not a festival vibe to it, but any stretch of imagination, but a kind of glamping light weight, you know, kind of a lot more people on site through the course of the summer so we can run it open into the evenings and the bar trades a little bit later and we can do different experiments around F and B and some light entertainment and music and what have you. So we're going to kind of push in those directions, all of which is really excited, but you know, at the very heart of it, it's about a kind of a broader non lake experience. We've been through the lake side of it which we talked about earlier, but we're kind of clear on that. So then it's just expanding it and you know, one thing is we talk about a lot is that now it's quite a binary surfer experience. You come here to surf, you stay in our tents to surf and really we've got to make it a residential experience where you can come here and spend a week and you can do various things around the area and we're in the doorstep of Bristol, which is an amazing city and surrounding beautiful countryside. You can book in your surfs, you've got other activities that you can do on the site and you can spend a week here. And you know, and I think that's very much the kind of direction of travel for us. Okay. Okay. So that's where we'll kind of, that's where we'll push. Yeah. And I've seen that and it is the last time I was there, the work from your cafe and you know, surfing the afternoon. Yeah. That was pretty thick. A lot of people do that. And it goes back into that community part piece that we talked about and we're going to make it a high performance hub for surfing England and a kind of coaching center and a kind of center of excellence. So we're going to add all those dimensions into it just means it really is a sort of the kind of spiritual hub of the certainly the inland surf sector. Okay. And then your, but your first goal is the car park. Yeah. The thing has to be the famed car park. We've got some bikes going in in the interim and then I hope it won't be too long. Yeah, but it's interesting because you mentioned that and yeah, if you're in the right frame of mind, the, you know, the walk is fine. You're going up. It's, you know, you've got the signs posted, you know, this, you know, 500 meters till, you know, perfect ways that kind of thing. But I have walked from the pool at night during a storm and my friend, Hannah Brista, was nearly, you know, blown over. So yeah, the long board flapping around. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So they're very good sales, though. You get that you get the right kind of wind and angle on your skateboard and you can almost kind of wing full of what? I'm sure someone is someone has tried that. What are you, what do you want to bring to the table to offer more in, in, in surf offerings? Is your wave schedule going to stay, stay the same? Are you going to? I mean, yeah, no, we are going to change it. And, you know, we're actually at the back end of three days of, of wave testing with wave guns. We've just been running a whole load of new, new, new waves and products. And I haven't had a full debrief in the team, but the kind of the, the excitement levels, the, the, the parks been closed here for three days. So we're closing the early part of the week now. So we've been running this testing and the, you know, all that the surf ops team have done hundreds and hundreds of hours of surfing on them. And yeah, and so, you're very excited about some new settings that are coming through. And I think sort of, I think one of we talked a lot about is just the sort of the pathway through the, you know, through the wave mix and how they, how they sort of link up. So having kind of flat sessions where the wave stays the same heights, you might have an intermediate advance, where it stays at one level and your content with that. Or you got kind of step up sessions where it goes from an advanced to an advanced plus so that you, you know, so that you help to kind of bridge your journey through the different waves. So yeah, we're just looking at a lot of kind of details around around how we can do that and some new settings that we're bringing on. So it's kind of constant evolution, but yeah, we'll be bringing a whole new range of settings out early next year. And it's, yeah, it's exciting. And, you know, the one thing you've got here is that, you know, it's just extraordinary technology. And you can, you can play around with wave sizes. I mean, it's just, it's crazy to, you know, we would discuss in this 10 years ago, you just would be mind boggling, but the fact you can just set all these different variations as just, you know, I'm still trying to get my head around it. It's just incredible. So I think we're going to be, I think we're going to be a lot more playful around what we do in the pool. Okay. And then, yeah, going back to that, I remember speaking with Joe Dale and Andy Cochifer about the changing the wave settings. So it's a little easier to get into at the beginning and in an intermediate level. And how that was a lot of a lot of work. But now with wave garden, you know, 12, 12 pools of open globally, what are you benefiting from from them? They're software. Are they sending wave programs over or are you on your own? No, no, they're, they're amazing to work with. And they're constantly evolving. What, what, what, what becomes a bit more nuanced is that the, because everyone's got a different kind of shape to their pool, they will react slightly differently to the waves. So you'll run these same settings, but they don't know this very well because you probably surfed more different wave parks than anyone else. Yeah, yeah. But they react differently. Yeah, they react differently to these different settings. So it's not one size fits all. So actually it becomes a little bit more nuanced. So it's been a lot of talk about the kind of easy takeoff mode, which you'll set on top of a wave and it'll have a slower start and it'll build up. But actually that, you know, we've been running that for the last year and the kind of the feedback is that it doesn't work so well in our, in our pool because it kind of creates this ridge through the middle and actually we go over the steeper takeoff, which isn't a whole load harder. There's a more consistent push through the wave. So that's one of the kind of overriding topics that I've heard talked about the most over the last few days. They're actually we're going to go back some of our original settings and push those. So, you know, particularly the advanced ones been talked about is people prefer the original advance with the what effectively was the steeper takeoff, but it doesn't, it doesn't necessarily play out like that. So yeah, it's, it's, you know, incredible information from wave garden, but you do have to adapt it to your environment and your customers as well. Okay. Yeah. And we have noticed that going to the different coves around each one is unique and different. And there's also the branding that you're doing with your setting, you know, whether you're calling it advanced plus, you know, or just advanced like, yeah, one of the first things I noticed was advanced and Bristol was very much different than advanced in Melbourne at the time. Yeah. So are you in talking about calibrating waves for your local consumers, for your surfers? Are you finding the basic language with the wave garden settings is helping and working with that like the M1 or the T2? Exactly. It's not, it's a subject of much debate and the game back to the kind of operators gathering. It is, you know, it was something that was, it was a thing of subject. So I think we've got kind of two views. One is I think the sort of the technical description from wave garden, like we're not, we're not protective over those. So we're quite comfortable with saying what they are. We don't market them as such because we think it's, it's, it's, it's a, it's a technical meaning and it doesn't necessarily represent what the wave is giving you. The, you know, the big question is for people to kind of correlate or certainly for the new customers to correlate where they're likely to fit into the kind of wave selection and giving an, you know, an M3 type name, you know, it's just, it's hard for people to do that. Whereas if you give it a descriptive setting, it's a little bit easier. So I think I think we, we would definitely stick with our setting names to sort of facilitate that, that kind of surf a pathway. What we did talk about collectively is it's just looking at, you know, we, there was talk about standardized systems. The standards, standardized safety systems, standardized life-guarring systems, minimum alcohol thresholds, tolerances rules. So we just, we talked a lot about having a sort of, you know, a kind of an, an operating standard for wavepox across the world. And one of the subjects was whether we, whether we standardize the kind of wave sizes. And you know, the example that was referenced was the kind of the Alpine environment where you've got a kind of a color coding for your different waves, except everyone's going to have their localised names and different different, obviously languages and all the rest of it coming to be. And also with the different machines, they're going to have different names of settings. So actually probably the easiest thing is just to have this kind of consistent color scheme. So I think, I think that would be really helpful. And then we will then probably stick with our own interpretation of names of that that are fit for our customer group. And you know, typically the Australian settings are all, all kind of bigger than ours and they like to, they like to push a lot of big waves over there. So as they will say, so yeah. And so I think, I think that is, you know, it's complicated. But I think that will be the direction of travel. Okay. Well, it's in talking about that, adapting the, the way it pull more to British surf culture. And you know, in your area, and we were talking earlier that people who've learned to surf there and then, you know, the coast is just not too far away. How do you see the way going forward, the wave working with British surfing, British room, surfing, just, you know, like integrating like - You mentioned that. - I can divide version again. - But I'd be more fascinated to ask you that question, but you know, someone who could see it. But the, I, would you know, I get asked the question then, 'cause I've kind of stepped into this role, taking on this business, you know, I get it kind of get asked it from people I know a lot, and I know people don't know it, what's it about? And it's just the most amazing, A, it's an amazing place to come and spend time and experience. That's kind of a given. They're just really, really fun. But beyond that, it's just the most incredible access point to surfing, you know, and I've, you know, I've been through trying to get them in a teaching my kids to surf and, you know, I live in London and, you know, I'm landlocked and all rest of it, and we've been on surf trips around the world. And it's a really, if you don't have, you know, kind of daily access to reasonably good surfing beach break, then it's an incredibly hard thing to learn. And what I just love about these, you know, the surf box is just the accessibility they offer for everyone, not just on a kind of, on a kind of skill level basis, or making it a child friendly, but to different socioeconomic groups and all the rest of it. So I think it's just that overriding accessibility. And we all know how rewarding the journey of surf is and what it, what it does for you as a person, the culture around it, the life opportunities it can open up, the health benefits or benefits of it, all the rest of it. So I just think it just unlocks that and makes it accessible to so many more people. And I think that's incredibly powerful. So it doesn't, by any stretch, replace surfing, but I think it allows more people to learn to surf and therefore enjoy surfing all around the world, you know, and travel with it and surf and beaches and surf and the sea and, you know, ultimately, that's what we all love as well. - Yeah, and you and, you know, you and I are talking with each other, we're both lifelong surfers. And it's what do you think it is about surfing that fundamentally benefits a person and ultimately changes them maybe or shapes how they view the world? - Yeah, I mean, it's, you know, I always think it was that comment in the kiss by God, the Andy Irons documentary when he just, he made a comment about the only time he felt kind of set calm, was when he was, you know, out in the sea and surfing. And it's just, you know, I, you know, I know there been lots of studies done and when I had the time, I'd love to kind of get into the, you know, into the weeds of what the blue earth kind of benefits are. But what we all know is the combination of getting in the sea, having like a madman, brief seconds of exhilaration in my case. And, you know, for a long period of time, and getting out absolutely drained and having fun with friends and the else doing it, it's just the most incredible experience, isn't it? And you get out just feeling great. And it's, you know, I think like a lot of exercise as well, you can go in with one mindset and come out of another one. You know, it is transitionary. And, you know, how, how, how, how one breaks down, what actually is happening there, I don't know, but I know, I know that we all love the feeling of it. Yeah. And, and allowing more people to access that. And that's, that's why I just, I'm sure you do the same, but you just encourage people to go and now the surf lakes, these surf lakes are just such an easy access point to get on that journey. Yeah. Yeah, definitely. And maybe we have to come up with something because we're never talking about, you know, tennis or golf or other kind of activity, anchored developments recreationally or residential. There's, well, I was come off kind of like, like, snobs, like, oh, but surfing's the best. And I'm still trying to find a way around that without soundingly set to, yeah, I don't know, kind of stuck up, snob, like, no, no, surfing isn't testable. Yeah, surf snob. And then, you know, everyone's like, oh, you have some dedication to golf and, you know, people who are just avid golfers and feel that. So I'm looking at the world through a surf lens, which has its benefits, but also not so much because I'm surfing now. (laughing) Yeah, yeah, yeah. (laughing) Okay, right on Julian. Is there anything else you'd like to add before we, before we close out? No, I don't think so. I think we've covered a fair bit. I've got a hundred questions I'd rather be asking you. You know, looking at the sort of the sector, I mean, like I say, you know, surf, I'm again, but it was the incredible kind of gathering and kind of futurists, you know, all sort of, it was like kind of, you know, kind of like gold rush, wasn't it? And everyone's there and speculating about these kind of big opportunities. And I'm interested by the sort of, the stabilization of it, you know, what you've seen as the kind of major trends as people kind of organize themselves, it becomes an industry, you know, and you know, where do you see consisted? Where do you see it sort of playing out in terms of probably the business models, I guess I'm driving out as much as, much than the else. Yeah, yeah, the change has been amazing. We're just, I'm riding a piece on Kelly Slater is 10 year anniversary for when he debuted is his wave and it's basically so much has changed. And at the time, you know, everyone's just kind of high on like, yeah, circular wave pools will work, yeah, put a wave pool in a box, you know, that kind of thing. But then very much as the industry is discovering as you are with your lagoon scheduling, that it's way more nuanced than that. And there was this just kind of sugar high at the beginning where, yeah, but they'll just be everywhere and would, and we'll do this. But I think we're at a point now, you know, 10 years on where it's the refinement of the, you know, kind of like life everywhere and business everywhere as it gets infinitely more, more complex. And then you factor in something like surfing and it becomes, you know, mind blowing, complicated. But yeah, a lot of that, everyone's after data, I remember, because you'll be able to better reach your customers who want to surf during that power. And, you know, just a few years ago, talking to James Miles at Urban Surf and at the time, yeah, Melbourne, it was, he was just like scraping, trying to get more data to build these better marketing pieces, you know, 'cause you can throw an event like they partner with Ferrari for something and you don't know if it's working. Yeah, it's kind of like, okay, we did this, we did this big thing and it's like people turned up, okay, that's good, but that is so different than saying, okay, I'm gonna get Joe over here into the pool at 11 a.m. for this wave 'cause he's just learning to do his backside turns, you know, that kind of thing. And what's his future purchase patent gonna be? It's that. Yes, where does Joe really want to be a surfer or is this? Yeah, yeah. Which is interesting because there's the, the whole, and I forgot to ask you this, but on the journey, I know for a lot of, a lot of wave pools have like kind of the bucket list client. So you have someone come in and they just want to learn to surf or learn to surf in a wave pool. So they have that one time experience and then they're off and they're gone, they're doing something else. I forgot to ask, are you doing anything to kind of curate to get them back to get them to become a lifelong surfer? I think there's an element of, with just because it was one of the first waves, people will come through and surf and kind of move on on an international level. I think for us, there's, I think it's the broader experience that brings people back. So I think you get into the same conversation about the kind of the wider development of the site and it not being so kind of binary surf that brings those kind of, there's the less kind of consistent customers back. And then I think really all the focus for us is about where the futures surfers are coming from. So, you know, we really changed our pricing and really dropped, almost made it kind of break even the kind of beginner and entry level of our surf pricing. Okay. Make sure that the very top of our funnel, if you like, is as affordable as possible. And that's the smallest barrier to entry because we all know and we've talked about it about how, you know, kind of addictive surfing is once you get into it, once you get past a certain level. So the kind of mindset is that we've got to just bring as many people we can kind of through that group. What's, what becomes quite interesting is that is the, you know, you asked about sort of, you know, kind of culturally is how, how numerous surf parks around the world and the exoscibility of Fords and the dilutive surf experience because surfing now and surfing in coastal environments, you go into surf type regions, you immerse yourself in surf culture, you interact with surf shops, you interact with locals, you interact with, you know, for good in some case, for bad, but largely for the good, you immerse yourself in the sector. And as these become city destinations worldwide, where you've got very, very boring, sensibility and therefore the kind of the interaction with the surf community is heavily, heavily diluted by virtue of kind of volume. It's going to be very interesting to see how that impacts surfing at large. - Interesting. Yeah, it's, yeah, and that goes on with every pool that visited has such a unique and different kind of culture that is more and out of, you know, there's some already established surfers, there's some people who just learn to surf. You compare something like Waco, where you get people driving up from the Gulf Coast. And then you have locals who've just learned to surf there and they're, you know, head on and just love it to a place like Korea where you have very much like a urban, young population who very much want to learn surfing. So they're a me-mool, the tap water surfers. And that's great. That's all they want to do. And then you have the core surfers, very, very few who are coming from the coast and driving four hours across the peninsula to go to the wave pool. So that was good. I got to turn the question back to you. So thank you. Try to try to remain hidden. But I'm going to be, you're going to be that traveling surfer that I got to bring back. Okay. Let's end here. And pin you the rest of my questions. Well, it's great meeting you, Julian. And it's thanks for taking time out and going through all this. Thank you very much for joining us. What's the podcast? Absolutely. Thanks for having me. Okay. Pull the best. The wave pool mag podcast is made possible due to support from wave pool operators, technology providers, and the growing list of companies doing business in the surf parts space. For commercial opportunities, reach out to us at [email protected]. Thank you and stay stoked.