The Warning Signs Britain Ignored - Colin Brazier

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Rep number 10004. Growing up in Bradford, which I think shapes you. And growing up there has given me an early warning clanging in my ears. It's massively segregated. There was a tolerance because people didn't think it mattered. I think the British state dropped the ball by allowing people we would later call Islamists to burn the satanic verses. We now have a sort of de facto blasphemy laws. It was a scene of the biggest race riots involving British Asians this country's ever seen. They were an expression of territoriality, in my opinion. I know you had some small attempts to raise issues of this nature when you were at Sky. What was your experience? Organizations like Sky News can't tackle these subjects. Why not? Because they don't give a s**t about their customers anymore. I think Bradford is a very powerful and cautionary tale about the future. Many of you have commented that you're seeing too many ads in our videos. We've listened to your feedback and disabled you. We've watched YouTube ads in the middle of interviews. Can we ask you a favour in return? According to our analytics, most of you who watch our show aren't subscribed. Please help us to continue to bring you fantastic content by subscribing today, hitting like, and leaving a comment with your thoughts on this video. Colin Brazier, welcome to Trigonometry. It's lovely to be here. It's great to have you. We've really both been enjoying your work of late, particularly some of the monologues you're putting out. Before we get into opinions and views and. recent events and future events and so on, tell us your story. What's been your journey through life that leads you to be sitting here talking to us? It includes growing up in Bradford, which I think shapes you. It's a really big city. It's got the youngest demographics in Europe. It was the place where I think the British state dropped the ball by allowing people we would later call Islamists to burn the satanic verses. We should have jumped on them. We didn't. We now have a sort of de facto. They're blasphemy laws. It was the scene of the biggest race riots involving British Asians this country's ever seen. It's the 25th anniversary this summer of the Bradford riots of 2001. It's a really important city. And growing up there—don't sound like I grew up there. I did grow up there—has given me an early warning clanging in my ears that something needs to be said and done about the direction of Britain today. What else has shaped me? Being widowed ten years ago and then eight or nine years ago with six. Young children shaped me a lot because adversity is apt to concentrate the mind and necessarily concentrated mind, but it also makes you a bit braver because you've seen horror. You've gazed into the abyss a little bit. So that was hugely shaping. My Catholic faith shapes me a lot. I'll give you three. That'll do. And why don't you sound like you grew up in Bradford? It's a really good question and one I'm uncomfortable talking about. I didn't upgrade deliberately. I still say last and fast. Okay. Was it Alan Bennett talked about when he was at Oxford, he lived in fear of being ambushed by the letter U. You know, I think people who are trying to put it on will come unstuck. It's funny, we believe in flexibility in all things. People can move in lots of different ways, but actually when it comes to transitioning to speaking a different way, people are quite uncomfortable. Aesthetically, I like to enunciate. What I say. I think it's inclusive. I never get recognized by people. With one exception. It happened to me last week at a hospital. A Tanzanian guy came up to me. I was there with my son. He said, "Your dad, he used to be on. " The number of African men who've come up to me. Because they used to watch Sky News while I worked 25 years. They would watch Sky News as a way of improving their English and the way that people just listen to the BBC World Service to improve their English and the vernacular. And these are people who've learned English. People who come to the UK. From books, very often. And I think the gap between how we speak English and how we write English needs to be as close as possible. But actually, if you've come from Africa or Asia or South America and you now live in London, you won't hear English spoken in the one way, that RP way. I'm not RP, but I try and speak clearly because I think it aids clear communication. I don't like glottal stops either. I think it's ugly. Well, I think one of the reasons that sort of adjusting the way you speak. Over time and over geographic. I worked at the BBC. That was where it started. What I also think is there is a. You talk about how it's very accepted now for people to transition in all sorts of ways. It's what I was looking for, thank you. But I think the one thing that people are always very suspicious about in this country, as someone who wasn't born here and a sort of semi-outside observer, is transitioning class-wise is seen as the great. You need to stay exactly. You need to be Bradford, ride or die. Not just Scruton. The great, late Tory philosopher said the bravest thing that many people in Britain will do these days is overcome class snobbery. And I think he's. I mean, that seems. That's quite a claim, but I get it. I guess what I'm getting at also is I think in your case, the background from which you've come, as you alluded to yourself, gives you a perspective on the world and this country in particular and the changes we've seen in this country that is less represented in Westminster and the bubble and the media bubble. I think that's a very important point. ago incredibly all the textile bills closed and you had a fairly xenophobic yorkshire indigenous people and an equally as it turned out xenophobic mapuri kashmiri community who were very much led by the barradari clan system deeply regressive and you put those two people together and never the twain shall meet and that whole idea that you know but i i went to school with people who were actually interesting but at the school which was sort of 50 50 white the school i went to um my friends my non-white friend said he'd be sick i didn't really have you know i was a kid i was an ingenue why did that happen i don't know i still can't answer that question but even then you were starting to see some of the problems that would come through around grooming um and a a sort of self-segregating impulse not to integrate but at least there were people you know pakistani heritage people who were working with you know indigenous white people now they don't even their paths never cross i think it's possible to grow up in parts of bradford and go go days without without people seeing people who don't look like you and that's that's regression isn't it completely and you said that there's no go areas i mean i've got no i've never felt myself but other people have said that i mean clearly and my sister would say that there are parts of bradford she wouldn't go to or her children wouldn't go to and i'd take her on trust i mean that sort of p the the 25th anniversary of the bradford riot the bradford riot on the 25th of 25th anniversary of the bradford riot on the 25th anniversary of the bradford riot on the 25th anniversary of the bradford riot on the 25th anniversary of the bradford riot on the 25th anniversary of the bradford riot this summer happened in july 2001 were an expression of territoriality in my opinion you know it was about young pakistani heritage men saying to the forces of the state this case west yorkshire police our writ runs here not yours so uh and we shouldn't be surprised by that i mean you've got a parallel society which has its own de facto legal system which has imported customs and values from a very different part of the world you know and the level of naivety to think that for instance you could import a whole community from a country like pakistan i've worked in pakistan a few times over the years and you know how many people pay what's the proportion of people who pay income tax in pakistan it's about one and a half percent now i'm not saying that the pakistan heritage people of bradford have imported that laissez-faire attitude towards paying tax into this country but on one level it would be surprising if they didn't bring a little bit of those values so it's just a sort of stunning curiosity that we have as as the host community this assumption that people won't bring their values with them en masse and that those values won't harden when a critical point of critical mass is reached which is what you've got in place like bradford bradford and leicester and manchester and parts of london a really good mate of mine is actually from bradford and doesn't sound like me kind of does a little bit but he's an academic but his uh his partner at the time was when they were talking about things to do with race or islam she was always kind of baffled she was like but why are you talking like this and then you're catastrophizing yeah all of this stuff but i don't understand you know immigration blah blah blah and but then when i was talking to her the other day she went francis and then i went to bradford and i went oh i get it yeah and that's someone uh from a muslim country herself totally yeah yeah and i was talking to somebody recently who uh i won't name the company but it's a company with lots of outlets across the country and he's and his his brother sorry correction his brother runs a company which has lots of different outlets across the country and he said that bradford was the worst city he'd ever been to i mean it it it's not a it's not a beauty contest that one city should lose it's just that i think bradford is a very powerful and cautionary tale about the future you know i used to think bradford was just detroit without the music it was a one-off it was an outlier it had this broken business model but it was you know i used to salve my conscience by thinking it's just bradford but that's it's not you know it's bournemouth now it's it's belfast now you know for bradford reed many many parts of the country and we've not even got started yet because of the changing demographics of this country and that's the problem is that bradford is no longer an outlier like you said it has now become symbolic of the decline of our country but also what happens when you have unfettered mass immigration into a particular city it changes everything and a lot of the time those changes aren't necessarily positive no they're not and i think it's what happens also when you don't when you don't grasp the nettle and you keep kicking the can down the road and again this is why i think bradford imparts us really important lessons 1987 eight nine the um salman rushti the fatwa was issued against the british author salman rushti um for um for his book the satanic verses a group of people we would later learn to call islamists gathered outside the city hall the magnificent city hall of bradford which has this uh clock tower based on the clock tower in florence you know these victorian burghers who had this incredible self-improving desire nothing was too good for them we're as good as a renaissance you know in the lee of this magnificent building uh people we would learn to later learn to call islamists uh burns salman rushti's satanic verses publicly and the pictures were beamed all around the world the state at that point should have said you this is not how we do things in the in this country we don't burn books you can do that somewhere else and we mass arrests sending out a really clear signal but at the time bradford labor on counts also labor on there there was a policy that came down from the the council level of multiculturalism of all cultures being equal um we you know leaflets go out in urdu uh we don't mind if you take your kids off halfway through a term back to pakistan for an arranged marriage there was a tolerance because people didn't think it mattered and of course now we realize it this stuff like drawing a line against blasphemy or saying to people you can't take your kids away it's pakistan halfway through school term we now realize it does matter but it's too late that horse has bolted hank joined bj's wholesale club the day he became a father of 30. i coach football now coach hank saves up to 25 off grocery store prices 30 pounds of pasta three cases of protein bars 75 sports drinks and that's just pre-game he knows teamwork and bj's knows savings this is your home coach home of the save join for just 20 dollars at bjs.com mesquite and save 10 cents per gallon for six months open soon limited time offer new members only bj's home of the save and what did you um i know you tried to cover these issues when you were at sky news not hard enough i i wasn't blowing smoke up your ass i was more curious about why the media were not able to give these issues the due attention and investigation because i think one of the things you know we've had the horrific experience of having to sit across from grooming gang survivors on a number of occasions to try and raise further awareness of that issue of course along with lots of other people and it's horrific to listen to their stories of course what they went through is infinitely more horrific but one of the things that i think is really angering not saddening not you feel compassion but angering is that the state the offices of the state the police social services in some cases doctors within the nhs and media and politicians were afraid they were not willing to address it and people in the media i know and we know who tried to talk about things that were not even that controversial as that were simply not able to do so why do you think that is based on on your career and your experiences uh i'll come at it from a slightly different direction i think what's astonishing to me sort of reassuring as well is that individuals when it comes to something like grooming individual journalists individual former police officers can make a huge difference uh i remember interviewing the the labour mp ann crier a widow of bob cryer firebrand left left-wing mp in her home in shipley outside bradford she was the mp for keithley she was the first parliamentarian to try and really draw attention to what was happening in some of these northern mill towns and cities like bradford it's not a town it's a city it's a big bloody place and you know she was routinely denounced by people like uh not dawn butler diane abbott as a racist you know this was an mp doing what an mp should do which is drawing attention to a significant problem in her constituency that was completely ignored and invisible to many people and for which she was rubbished and denounced by people within her own party people in her own party you know and they were consistently the grooming story is a story of individuals who made a difference you know individuals and we should all take comfort from this individuals whether it's elon musk at the most profound level individuals can still change history i know historians don't believe this i think these massive sort of seismic changes they can whether it's the former you know maggie oliver the former detective whether it's uh the journalist at the times and forgive me andrew norfolk who used to look at the old newspaper um these individuals can actually make it make a difference and bring that story to light the news doesn't just tell you what's happening it tells you what to make of it and the real red flag isn't what's said it's what gets left out that's why i use ground news every day they gather thousands of stories from across the political spectrum compare how different outlets are covering the same story side by side and contextualize it including specific differences in how each side is reporting it that's how you see what whole audiences are not being told my favorite feature is their blind spot feed my favorite feature is their blind spot feed every day it flags upwards of 20 stories that are being ignored by either the left or the right let's look at some examples follow along at ground.news trigonometry take this story a pure research survey found that 56 percent of americans now support banning social media for anyone under 16 with a majority of Republicans and a majority of Democrats behind it. Genuine bipartisan agreement is rare enough to be newsworthy on its own, and yet coverage came almost entirely from the right. The left barely touched on it. On the other hand, look at this. An AP poll found that 66% of Americans now say democracy is central to what it means to be American, down from 80% five years ago. That is a serious story about how the country sees itself, especially on its 250th anniversary. And it got three times more coverage from the left than it did from the right. Ground News puts all of this in one place. Headline comparisons, bias breakdowns, ownership insights, and context so you can actually understand what's going on, not just react to what you're told. Go to ground.news slash trigonometry or click the link in the description of this episode. Get 40% of their vantage plan, the same one that we use, and stop being managed by the media. Yes, but I think within, you put a good slant on it, and I think that's a good thing to do. But on the other hand, I think the story you just told is actually terrible. I think that's a horrific story. Of course. It's a horrific story. You're right. It's absolutely horrific. And in a small way, I don't want to trivialize what happened to the victims of these grooming rape gangs. It's a small reflection of exactly the thing I was pointing to, which is, if you try to, challenge any of this, the full powers of the state will actually be applied to you, not to the rapists, not to the traffickers, not to the people who are committing the crimes. And so come back to the media with me, because I'm interested in, I know you had some small attempts to raise issues of this nature when you were at Sky. Well, I was, 2007, 2006, I was doing some longer films at Sky. So I wasn't yet in the studio, and I was sort of, off the road and back in, I'd been abroad for a while and came back. And I took a film crew to Bradford. And we went, for instance, to the church where I was baptized. It had been fire bombed. The priest there, you know, some local hotheads, I think, Father, you know, really, the fire bombing happened on the night that the American Air Force started bombing the Taliban in Afghanistan in 2001. You don't think that was a, that was maybe a coincidence? No, no, no, no. So it was, it was, it was breaking fresh journalistic ground, telling new stories. That story, the report that the fire bombing against that church some years earlier, hadn't been reported in a way that I imagine a fire bombing against a mosque, for instance, would have been reported. So there was that disparity there. I managed to get that into my story. But there were elements of the story that just, I did an interview with one guy, a former newspaper report on the local paper. And it was, I can't remember if it was taken out, but I was left with an impression. I can't get, I can't remember this specifically, this distance. But the piece, through conversations and through the final edited version of the piece that went to air was much less strong than I would have wished it. It was still broaching some of the subjects, but it was, it was much, much weaker. Look, we all, this, this, organisations like Sky News can't tackle these subjects. Why not? Because they don't give a shit about their customers anymore. Because they're not, their business model is broken. Nobody watches it. What they want to do is impress their friends. At other media institutions, and in particular, they want to impress people who award gongs, awards, BAFTAs, RTS, all television society awards. Because when your viewing figures are in terminal decline, because people now get their news from phones, not from TV channels, you need another metric to prove your success. And that's my BAFTA. You don't get that BAFTA because you've done a report from Bradford on how, you know, you get your report, you know, you don't get a knock on the door from the police, potentially. Right. Right. And nothing sums this conversation up better than that tweet that, I think it was Kay Burley did, your former. I can't. Dan wouldn't ask me about Kay Burley. No, go on, go on. I'll let you finish. And it was, I can't remember the exact wording, but it was talking about the illegal migrant crossings. And there was that picture of that. It wasn't a dinghy, it was a mega dinghy coming over these people illegally. And what her basic argument was, oh, it's not that many people. What's the problem? And I remember reading that and I go, you couldn't come across more out of touch if you actually were doing this on purpose. My difficulty is that Kay was very good to me when my late wife was dying and we were struggling to get Sky to pay for some of the medical bills. And in that situation, I'm sorry if this sounds melodramatic, but it's true. She was very good. She shook down the sort of high. She shook down the opposite side and some of those medical bills were paid. It will be ignoble of me to respond to your question. I'll leave it at that. I mean, you know what my views are on the big boats. We are, it is an invasion, period. We need to take much more robust action to stop it happening. It's a slow motion catastrophe. The media have been complicit. I've seen that myself in 2015. Well, you know, one of the kind of red pill moments for me was 2015, the migration crisis. I was in Serbia, Hungary, Greece, these places. Watching my colleagues from the media, all TV media especially, who would always single out the woman with the long hair, who speaks great English. You know, she lives in a nice part of Damascus. They'd ignore the guys who didn't speak English and they were just out of prison or whatever. So it was this determination then to see only good things from the future engineers and lawyers and doctors who were coming to the UK. And why is that, Colin? It's become more leftish because it's become, and we can talk about the reasons why that is, but once you're more leftish, you believe in the perfectibility of human nature. You're naturally a fairly utopian bent. You want to believe the best of all things at all times of all people. You're constantly relativizing. You don't want to make harsh judgments. And it does tie, it does loop back to where a lot of our journalists come from now, literally come from. You know, that I don't want to sort of, there was no golden era of, of journalism. I don't want to talk about newspaper journalism, but it was, it was true that the time was when newspapers in particular were filled with 60, you know, kids who left school at 16. They didn't go to university. They certainly didn't do a media studies course. They were hefted to their locality. They had no ambitions even to go to Fleet Street. They wanted to serve their community. I mean, they were still, you know, in possession of rat-like cunning and scumbags because journalists are meant to be scumbags. But they were, but they were scumbags who believed in their community and felt they weren't looking for the next job in London. And they wanted to tell the truth about what was happening in their local community. That doesn't happen anymore. Most, a lot of newspapers, local newspapers are closed down. And the effect in terms of who's going into, you know, who is staffing Sky News, BBC, ITV, Good Morning Britain, all these places, Channel 4 News. It's self-replicating. The people who do the hiring are looking to replicate themselves and the people they hire. And also the other thing that happened, I saw it latterly at Sky, is that you were starting to get a degree of newsroom activism as well. And things like trans issues. You know, I got, I remember seeing a script. I haven't thought about this for a while. Let me try and dredge it up. There was a script. My co-presenter and I, who will remain nameless, lived in terror of having to misgender somebody. You know, it was the train coming down the track. And we had various stratagems. Let's just only use the name. Let's not get into somebody's gender. And then Sky News, the website, did a story about. Sam, who's the singer? Sam Smith. Yes. And now he's now. They. They. And I read, I read, I read, I read the article. I read all these guys. I read the article in good faith. I read it and I read it in good faith. And I got, I got lost. Because I didn't know. Who's this fucking they they're talking about now? Because, you know, maybe my kids would say to me, Dad, you know, it's just because you're an old bastard and you just need to be, you know, now you're on the lookout for they, they would be fine. But I read it and it was, it was an impediment to lucid, lucid copy. It was just a. It was obfuscating. It was confusing. And I, I raised it with some, you know, a senior figure at Sky who just in, in so many words, told me to fuck off. Why? I think at Sky in particular, there was a corporate impulse to that came down from the corporate place. And this is why, in a sense, Sky was worse than the BBC, because at least BBC, the BBC had on the shop floor, some dissenting voices. I think at Sky, as it became a sort of paramilitary wing of Channel 4 News, that they, it was, it was from the. From the corporate high ups. There was also a sense of embarrassment, I think, about the Murdoch connection. That was, they felt soiled by that Murdoch thing. So there was a determination to put, you know, wash him right out of their hair. But no, I just think Sky became woker than the BBC. And that's been replicated right the way through the media. And it's, it's just accelerated their decline, hasn't it? Yeah. And part of the problem is even, I'm not, I'm trying to think of some employer I haven't, I haven't slacked off yet, but even, even at GB News, which is a good thing. I remember, you know, I was, I was one of the launch presenters at GB News. I was there for 18 months. They fired me. My figures weren't good enough. And they, I remember I used to watch Nigel Farage walk in when he, when his show was on. And, and thinking, my God, mate, a lot of the people here don't like you. Not because they don't, they don't know you, but they don't like what you stand for. This is GB News. Because they've still got to put the shows out, and there's a lot of you know it's a lot of production and there aren't many people who are ideologically aligned with gb news who know which buttons to press and which cameras to work and all that sort of stuff so i would guess at least at least in the early days at least half of the people who were working at gb news were really not digging it ideologically and it made for a lonely setting for someone like nigel as he as he used to walk in so it's not just it's not just the usual suspect in gb news and one of the themes that you actually talk about very eloquently on your monologues which i really recommend people to go and watch because i think they're genuinely excellent is this idea of social engineering so let's talk about that because media is part of that but also government is as well so so what do you mean by that colin it's such a it's such a massive catch-all i scarcely know where to begin um it can be a nudging people to making certain decisions i mean i was i was writing recently about the work of a shady civil service department which tries to sounds conspiratorial but it's true i mean you which tries to shape public opinion in the wake of say an islamist atrocity by i mean we're not very far here from westminster bridge i remember covering that attempt to mow people down successful attempt put that way to mow people down by an islamist some years ago and within you know hours of that attack happening posters started to appear um saying you know hashtag love will win and all this sort of stuff you know there's a small small department within government that seeks to massage public opinion to make sure that the family liaison officers who have gone to talk to bereaved victims of an atrocity will as we've seen recently following events in belfast and elsewhere you get these very anodyne statements stressing the benefits of mass immigration i don't know whether they're written by the bereaved victims i suspect some of them aren't so that's social engineering that's that's engineering uh anger suppressing anger and you can make you can argue there's a very good case for that that's social engineering that's just one one tiny example among many and that's the i think the department's called rico rico yes research and information communications unit i mean it's meant to sound as as drab and boring as it as it could be but actually when you think about what it's doing uh and how freedom information requests have been routinely denied uh and where a lot of its work remains classified um and again you know i'm no fan of the daily mail um but because of stuff you know stuff in my own history um but the daily mail dug that story out so you know the mainstream media bits of the mainstream media newspapers i think i know it's fashionable to disdain what they do but they still matter oh the media is very important it's something we've always said on the show the new media is important but so is legacy media and it just it just needs to be much better uh but yeah i mean in terms of the the families of the victims of horrific atrocities it is surely not a coincidence that they all basically come out with exactly the same state and by the way um in the case of the the mother of rihanna and white uh who came out and basically didn't say diversity is our greatest strength but actually said can you please deal with this issue because our children are paying the price no one cares no and and her words are not used to justify government policy whereas the words that in we suspect are being coached out of the the family members of victims of crime are being used to justify the suppression of the debate we'll get back to the interview in just a moment but first let's talk about something that might change the way you see the world many of you will know that christianity has been a subject of fascination on this show and its role in shaping the modern world is something we explored in 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against henry novak's killer was brought by the crown it was brought by the state paid for by taxpayers on all on all our behalves it wasn't a it wasn't a civil suit it wasn't private prosecution i remember um you know people get confused about these things when i was at sky i used to regularly fairly regularly interview a woman called debbie purdy who's now dead she had multiple sclerosis and she would appear and i would interview her and she was an early and very good very shrewd and compelling advocate for assisted suicide and um i would never treat her like a victim because it was clear to me she was an advocate she was a campaigner but i had colleagues who would really soft soft so her because she was a victim she was dying she was in a wheelchair and i remember getting emails from people saying you can't treat this woman like you're treating you can't talk to her that way i think you she's she's here to advocate for a major change in the law and she said as a campaigner i'm not going to patronize her by sort of being you know going easy on her so we we're becoming more sentimental as a society we need to be really clear-eyed about what well where the threats are we need to be coherent and logical as well and the problem is though this is the real problem with this is that you can continue softening the statements but all the while there is this well of anger and it's building and it's building and it's building and you can keep using this tactic but very rapidly we're getting to a point where that tactic simply ain't going to wash and if anything that tactic is just simply going to inflame tensions even more because people know what's happening they're not stupid i know i agree i agree and the extent to which i mean i did a monologue recently on on david betts is that the the um war historian no sociologist what is david how would you describe david betts the king's college inaccurately probably if i did it from memory but he's a guest on the show and he's someone for people who may not remember there was a very popular interview we did with him who talks about the probability of civil war in britain from an academic expert says there are certain tests that need to be met we've met four out of five or whatever it is and um and i did a monologue about it partly because of what david betts had said but also just as i'm sure you you know you found as well people whose judgment you trust they're not cranks they're not they're not nutters i can think of one friend in particular yes you know amateur historian read history at university not a headbanger saying to me you know in hushed tones at the end of an evening well gonna be civil war isn't it and you know and i don't think it's catastrophizing i don't think it's just somebody pissed at the end of a long night trying to be interesting i think it's people with children and a stake in the future looking rationally at what's happening to the country and thinking this is where this ends up right and see in a country where these things were terrible but were likely to be solved you would have political leaders emerging who were willing to number one just for starters acknowledge the problem that'd be nice then they might want to address the problem then they might have the caliber to be able to do so and perhaps the wherewithal to withstand the inevitable criticism that would come and i thought one of your best recent monologues was about the caliber of the politicians and it's it's a challenging one to talk about because on the one hand i think we've all seen it with our own eyes the decline in that on the other hand i guess it's the eternal complain of the of the sort of you know the disgusted of tunbridge wells and and all and all the rest of i say this as someone who lives in tumblr increasingly disgusted of course um it's uh it's it's the eternal complaint through the ages you might say so make the case for us the the decline in the standards and caliber of politicians is part of the reason we're here i'll try to but let me just just finish that point about um civil war just kemi badnock kemi badnock who implicitly authorized me to make write a monologue about civil war because she she she raised it in an interview she said it's not impossible it's the leader of the opposition saying is civil war is not impossible um we mentioned rod little earlier rod little's final column said that kemi kemi gives me hope she gives me hope actually but anyway the rest of the party are she she she i think is formidable and increasingly impressive separate story um but she an mp and the people she's surrounded by increasingly are uh woeful they lack a hinterland um if you look at this particular intake there's a particular i think there's a special problem with the fact that so many of those 232 mps new labor and new labor mps who came in um had very little experience of what any of us any of us would consider to be real you know real life 72 of them i think have backgrounds in the charity sector learning how to spend other people's money i think it's very good training for government it's but it's demonstrable on some levels i mean the the us networks used to take prime minister's questions live you know such was the standard of the back and forth rhetorically i don't think they would now um mps read their questions and look the ability to memorize or extemporize is not necessarily the only guide to somebody's intelligence or competence as a parliamentarian but it's not that guide and now mps who used to be shouted down howled down if reading reading you know if if you were reading a question or a point of order or anything and now they just routinely uh read they lack the confidence of self-assurance to be a presence in that in that chamber um there were the instances i mentioned in my monologue where you know on the literally within days of the uh american attack on iran and the middle east in flames and brits are carrying in bunkers in dubai and just over the road from where we are here in portcullis house house the overflow building for parliament the palace of westminster 40 plus mps lib dems labor tories uh was doing a raising awareness session for obesity they were having fun because they are essentially increasingly frivolous it's not their fault we're all increasingly frivolous we've lost a tragic sense of life to a great degree and that's wonderful because you know you know my mum was one of nine two two were dead before they reached adulthood times was hard it's one of the reasons it strikes me absurd when people say i can't possibly have children these are such awful times they ain't and the mps that used to fill that place you know margaret margaret thatcher's first cabinet had three war veterans who won the military who'd won the military cross um but they also had these you know i think about starmer i think i said monologue of fish rocks from the head his his statement when he stood down was particularly egregious you know i'm leaving with good grace you know it's clever having improved the country you know it's a clever he's a clever guy he's a lawyer he understands that words are freighted with semantic meaning here is for everybody else to judge whether you left with good grace not for you to say whether you left with good grace it's just a mark on how he didn't get it and and was and was so conceited and people people thought he was a sort of managerial type that was vain that the vanity of the man to tell us all after those two hideous years comically inept years that he history would be kind to him no you you're about the worst prime minister we've ever had and compared to some of his predecessors labor predecessors every bit as much as you know other parties um that that absence of the hinterland is particularly strong he went on the bbc's desert island discs kia starmer and at the end of it they said you know we're not going to be able to do that in the desert island he says i'm like an atlas and i thought you know my michael michael foote you know very left-wing labor leader maybe even a kgb stooge who knows uh wrote you know wrote books dennis healy had a huge library um you know this this is a ted heath concert pianist sailed around the world um you know we we had and we had and we had we had leaders of this country who had real hinterlands and we had leaders of this country who had real hinterlands and we had leaders of this country who had real hinterlands um you know they were intellects and they'd done stuff and that that's a real issue they'd done stuff you looked at previous cabinet ministers they were accomplished people like they wrote they were they were academics or they'd run businesses or even you know on the left they'd be they they would have worked in mines they would come from a really poor background work their way up joined the trade union done this done that you look at these you go what have you done i know i mean i mentioned in the monologue that i mean i'm not sure how many people are even aware of this like ernest ernest bevin who was orphaned orphaned at eight he was and then was a farm laborer at 13 in somerset ernest bevin nye bevin went down the pit a coal pit like his father at 13. um ernest bevin founded nato and nye bevin founded the national health service this idea that you get from i've heard it's particularly true from labour mps that the world's again as you know you're angela rayner you're you're having a crack at me because i'm a poor i'm from the wrong side of the tracks no i don't crack you because you're you know and this poverty of low expectations that somehow because you came from a poor background you can't possibly achieve as much as the person who came from a good background it's belied by the history of your own bloody party bevin and bevin well i think what it speaks to is we now live in the age of victimhood and it's not left or right there's plenty of people on the right now who really want to be victims as well yeah um but with politicians it's a very in a society that thinks a victim is the great the greatest sanctity of of that's available to all of us victimhood uh it's a very good tactic uh to deflect criticism and to say well you're only criticizing me because i'm a victim of life i've been underprivileged or whatever rather than criticizing you because what you're doing is not good or we've got to call it out though we've got to call it out and that's really really hard i mean i think that one of the jobs that somebody's i mean this is big stuff now i mean one of the jobs that somebody maybe it's maybe it's nigel farage maybe it's coming back not but somebody for instance has to when dealing with welfare level with the country and i'm sorry if this is what i'm about to say is going to offend some people but that message would be something like this our welfare is now completely under control uh it means that the means we have to defend ourselves as a country you know welfare over war fair means that we can't defend ourselves the welfare budget is so massive and that means people who have striven and been brilliant brilliant citizens all their life will not will die their children will die because we can't defend ourselves because the welfare bill is so bloated so what we're going to do is we're going to really crack down on welfare dependency and i've got to level with you the british people that there will be people with depression and autism and um the people who are saying that if you cut my budget if you cut my funding i will my mental health will suffer and and the charities will say and people might kill themselves i'm saying to you the british people that this is a price we may have to pay there will be victims there will be victims similarly we're going to stop the boats there may be victims but i'm going to give you loads of warning i'm going to be months of warning but if you try and come across channel your little you're very large dinghy we're going to push you back and you might drown it's horrifying i'm a christian i don't want to say that you know all this but we we we are not those are such a mismatch between our willingness to really grasp the nettle and what happens if we don't a while back i pushed myself in training because i'm a legend but ended up with a strain that took far longer to recover from than it ever used to nothing dramatic just one of those moments where you realize your body isn't snapping back the way it once did and as you get older those moments start adding up turns out there's a reason for that and it's not just getting older it's something special that's going to make you feel better and it's not just getting older it's something special that's going to make you feel better and it's not just getting older it's something special that's going to make you feel better and it's not just getting older it's not just getting older it's something special that's 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open soon limited time offer new members only i completely agree and i think this christian point to me is very interesting because i think a lot of the christian ethics are so valuable and so important i say this to someone who's sort of semi-practicing and semi-believing i guess if you you know a religious person probably scoff at that but but it's how i feel i wouldn't i wouldn't never scoff at it but all men are my brothers must apply to your brothers first they must yeah they must apply to your own people first uh if you if you privilege foreign citizens and i say this as someone who lived in this country as a foreign citizen for many many years at the expense of your own brothers you're not doing right and you're not actually practicing or implementing the claim you make when you say all men are my brothers because you are acting in against the interest of your own actual brothers by privileging people who are in as you said it's a controversial term but i think after particularly after we saw in how do you pronounce that you're the spanish speaker here sweater sweater or sweater after after you see those scenes um and you just go look i i don't like when people call what's happening in invasion i don't know that it's an accurate term to me an invasion is people storming the beaches with swords and guns and whatever but what you saw in sweater was an invasion it was it's a fact you can pretend you can say oh most of them have gone home as if the fact that people have you know come into your house without your permission and then most of them have left that somehow makes it okay well you can't place the interest of those people against and above the interest of your own citizens there's nothing christian about that i would argue yeah well i have doubts about whether 25 years in tv was worth it i do i do remind myself that footage and video and images are still what really changes minds yeah and it was i agree those images from suitor have kick-started a conversation in brussels even about this and all men are my brothers and some are more more more my brothers and others there's a brilliant book um and a brilliant article actually written by an amazing anglo-iranian guy called bidja manrani i don't know if you've come across pigeon he wrote an amazing book called god is an englishman and he wrote a piece for the salisbury review which is a quarterly conservative magazine i i'm one of the volunteers who works on that magazine and in his article very learned scholarly erudite article he's a church he's oxford educated but works as a church warden in exminster very improbable character uh and he gives he takes you through the bible uh verses that explain why your first recourse is to your neighbor you know and it's not it's not controversial you know there is a brotherhood brotherhood of man uh you know i i you know if someone like tom holland's amazing book dominion reminded all of us 10 years ago that so much of what we take for granted around human rights and individual autonomy is lifted directly from christianity and we just take so much for granted in our lives today that springs from christianity tom holland paints a very dark picture about what happens when you take those struts away i agree with him um so yeah people people misunderstand that and particularly i remember this brilliant david goodhart who you may have interviewed yeah we have several times and you know he he was he recounts a conversation in his groundbreaking book the road to somewhere somewhere anywhere he was at a dinner he may have told you the story he's at a dinner and there's mark thompson then the head of bbc and gus o'donnell cabinet secretary head of the civil service and their inclusive they're both catholics and am i and they were basically saying that their first their first duty as they felt it was to um everybody to to the global welfare not national welfare and i think that that that view amongst our elites is is pretty common and the other the problem is is this prioritization of the global the elite the everywheres but that is a way of doing that and that is also mixed with an outright contempt for white working-class people in particular and that's a very dangerous combination because white working-class people in this country are the majority and if you are openly contemptuous of them that's only going to raise the temperatures even further in our country and the issue is is that when people from those communities then start to air grievances particularly around things to do with race with immigration it doesn't go anywhere and if not it's met with actual contempt and we've seen that for so long now and my concern is we've got to a point where you're looking at the rise of certain individuals and certain organizations and you're going this this is going to get ugly pretty quickly we're very lucky in this country the british the the average brit is quite temperate we're not prone to extremism but what i'm seeing and maybe it's spending too long on twitter or whatever else things are feeble at the moment my my my late wife who was a ardent brexiteer but actually started out on the left i mean she was a bristol uni she was a member of the revolutionary communist party she used to say to me we'll be all right in this country because we take the piss it's what we do best we take the piss and you know you recognize this more than anybody and and i used to believe that was true i think it's less and less true uh that i parked that one thing that's coming across to me really strongly at the moment and you know we when we zoom back if if i live another 25 years i think we'll care we'll care far less about covid we'll care far more in terms of it being a punctuation mark in history and we'll care far more and we'll see much more damage uh that should be laid at the door of the george floyd terror you know when i go back to sky seeing the reaction of big organizations like that to the george floyd killing by the way it was footage again it was tv footage that did the persuading and if you look at what's happened in the education sector the charity sector um and this idea that people could stop taking responsibility for their own shortcomings their own lack of persistence and blame it on you know whiteness or you know just blaming other things rather than maybe looking at yourself and saying oh my god what's going on with myself and thinking do we have a problem here with fatherlessness you know is there a cultural problem here um and what francis obviously is alluding to uh the civil war on the right you might say politically in this country to some extent what do you make of that as someone who i assume wants the right to succeed i do i really do uh and because if they don't we're really where do we go uh i didn't know this was happening until a friend of mine who used to edit the jewish film said to me colin you need to be aware that you know that anti-semitism is coming back in a big way cinema you know look at this guy nick fuentes and i didn't really believe him and then um a couple of things made me realize it is it is a a new fisher um and i think for me that will become uh totemic in my mice you know there'll be people watching this thinking i liked you until you said that i'm going to say it i love the idea of israel i've worked in jerusalem for months on end uh i think that what happened on october the 7th is staying on humanity and um if people feel it was you start saying it's a whole swag operation or you i just can't go there with you guys i just can't go there with you you know so these are these are where these divisions are creeping in i don't see how you heal those divisions once they once you've once you've created them or allowed them to be created and the problem is is these divisions are then creeping into politics quite significantly i found it very interesting one of the first things that west street did when he came to power was talk about the way that the kia starmer in particular had handled that situation october 7th incredibly badly and i'm west street or andy burnham oh andy burnham andy burnham sorry andy i misspoke you skipped ahead two years yeah i don't think so well but you go i don't remember i thought kia starmer was actually quite measured i thought he was strong on a balance on a very important issue which was the slaughter of jewish people yeah but this is a party now which is so in hock to its muslim voting bloc um which is terrified of them deserting their traditional blind allegiance to the labour party which isn't perturbed as it should be by the fact that there are people willing to be much more preoccupied with what's happening to their co-religionists 3 000 miles away than what's happening to their neighbors who whose religion they don't share down the road that's nuts that's really nuts you know mp's saying i've got voting regards a ticket what what and you know it's certainly happening in bradford um you know i've seen palestinian you know the last time i was there and it is a couple of palestinian flags the flags matter by the way because the white working class have decided they matter how do we express our frustration our anger put some flags up it's it's that's such a don't you think such a test of how people i i see saint crosses of saint george on a lamppost and i think freedom fighter put that there a lot of people i used to work with will just look at it as you know a completely unpalatable act of civil disobedience by people who are trying to wreck the country well it's interesting because you bring that up because the last time i saw rod little was at a private dinner where he was a speaker and he talked about the fact that he actually saw flags and he talked about his experiences in many countries around the world when people are putting up flags on mass he saw it as a symptom of insecurity i agree that's exactly what it is and when he saw the flag of saint george going up in the numbers that he did he was not offended or horrified by the way that people in in the media were neither was i by the way but i think what it signals is that these are the reasons it's a creed occur that is that is a term that's far too sophisticated for a peasant cry from the russian peasant like me it's a cry from the heart it's a cry from the heart but i think it's a cry from the heart that is signaling from something rather specific which is the the destruction of identity and also the demographic situation people talk about demographic replacement of the native population replacement hasn't happened because you haven't replaced the existing population but what has happened is you've added masses of new population which has diluted so you haven't replaced these people those people are still here but you you've changed the nature of the country and the face of the country and as you may know i've got into trouble for talking about ethnicity and all of these things trying to work my way through the world and i've got into trouble for talking about ethnicity and all of these things trying to work my way through the world and i've got into trouble for talking about ethnicity thinking about these issues but i as a foreigner perhaps and someone who's you know olive skinned or whatever i'm sometimes allowed and sometimes not allowed to say this there are parts of britain today including in this city in london and in other places where visitors from other countries that i show around simply walking through london say what has happened here and i think those flags going up across the country in posh parts of the country as well as in poor parts of the country are a symptom of people saying like we want to have our country in some way at least look like the country that it is yeah well that it's supposed to be that it was when i was 20 years younger than i am today and i think the i i you know you talked about israel which to me uh you know i think anti-semitism is obviously a terrible thing like all forms of racism are um and you know given the history of the jewish people i think it's a terrible thing and i think it's a terrible thing and i think we're naturally extra sensitive about it but that's not actually what i meant i really do care much more about britain than i do about any other country um and i think i as you talked about the gaza ticket i think all british should all british people should care more about this country than others including jews about israel by the way i think it applies to everybody but when i was talking about the civil war on the right i'm actually talking about the fact that i think um you see that the the success of parties like restore and rupert lowe is is about the fact that they are articulating something that no one has been allowed to say in public for a very long time which is and and and you know you get people who talk about this crudely and inarticulately and badly and in a racist way it doesn't mean their voices are inauthentic but it doesn't mean that they're they're not raising something it's important that's important britain has changed you know i came here in 1995 the country does not look like the britain that it was it just doesn't and and it pains me to say because and and uh you know i say that as someone who came from another but i didn't come here to live in pakistan or in bangladesh or or in or in russia from where i came if millions of russian people were coming here and making it more like russia i would be on the front line saying this is wrong right but but what we've had is the changing of the country and that's where i think a lot of these concerns are now rising ridge first sponsored this show nearly six years ago i've still got one of their wallets in my pocket right now and i'm i promise nobody told me to say that ridge makes wallets power banks luggage the stuff that actually ends up in your pocket or your bag 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head to ridge.com and use the code trigonometry at checkout for 10 of your first order and a shot at the biggest giveaway ridge has ever run a lamborghini huracan sterato a hennessey velociraptor a ford bronco or a hundred thousand dollars in cash every dollar you spend gets you more entries but you don't need to spend anything to enter that's ridge.com code trigonometry after you check out they'll ask you where you heard about them tell them we sent you um a couple of things i get spooked occasionally by what i see on the right i i'm delighted the energy is there i worry sometimes whether energy has been directed i i'm a sort of berkey and conservative at heart i believe in institutions um because otherwise spasms you know if you're if you're if you're gobbing off that's unkind i don't mean going off if you it's one thing to have a popular social media presence like rupert lowe has achieved this amazing uh presence and and voice but you've got to for it to endure it's got to be within an institution he would say restore britain as that institution but there is a there is a discomfort with institutions now on the right which does spook me you know and i think it's a good thing that we're in a situation where we're in a situation where uh i get why people think the monarchy is woke i get why people think the cops are woke i get why people think the army's woke because they all are um but you don't blow them up you rebuild you reform them right so there's so there's there's that aspect changing britain i i did a monologue recently which you know people don't watch because it's so dull as a subject but it's like all dull like some dull things it's really important about demography i think people for one thing we're only in the foothills i think we're only in the foothills and i think we're only in the foothills at the moment i think there was a tide there was a tsunami of childlessness not inadvertent childlessness i'm talking about childless childlessness by choice a tsunami coming at us it's not even started yet but people have you know people of my generation now who are maybe i'm 58 uh people who are just entering that phase in life where they're thinking you know my kids gonna have kids and you you know you talk to people and nobody's kids nobody's kids are having and there's never been a time in human history and and people say you don't know what the answer to this is well let me pose the question has there ever been a time in history where whole communities of people have aided and abetted by the likes of science had families large families as big as they wanted to have whilst other people voluntarily have decided to stop having children this amazing asymmetry between different communities has to create tensions that have never existed before you know we've been able to manage waves of immigration before other countries have been able to manage them and we've been able to manage them and we've been able to manage them waves of immigration before because the people who generally speaking moved to that country were having families and replicating themselves broadly in line broadly in line with a few differences with the host community that's not how it is anymore you know uh so we are in really uncharted territory really really uncharted territory and i just i don't even think we're in the foothills i think that that that that demographic change is hasn't even started yet and it's the worrying thing is is that we just don't talk about these things as plainly as honestly as we should and that goes back to the politicians as well and not only does it go back to the politicians it also goes back to us as a public where the moment you are honest with us about a particular issue we have a meltdown and the toys come out of the proverbial plan well so the best thing i agree and the best example for me is the monologue i did recently about demography i mean i wrote a book about demography 15 years ago um i've done programs about it i tell you i've done a lot of programs about it i've done a lot of programs about it tried to set up a think tank about pronatalism encouraging people to have all the children they want and i knew because i because i've done i've noticed before that people on our side of the aisle i can call it that you know people who are uh you know not parts of the liberal establishment i knew that it would not this was not a message as i framed it that would go down well and sure enough people take it personally you know because it's the most personal decision lots of people ever make for one thing very often it's a tragedy and you know i always try and preface anything i say demography with you know this tragedy if you want children can't have them you know i'm not talking about you i'm not talking about you i'm talking about a society which is making it um you know as mary wakefield the deputy editor of the spectator put it recently a society which has now created conditions where people can say i'm now child free by choice in the way they used to say i'm fucking dairy free by choice you know that's what we're getting to that is and and the catastrophizing about the environment this lack of confidence in their ability to become parents this this unfocused sense of threat for the future every generation mine grew up with four minute warnings and nuclear missiles a thousand years ago it was a plague don't pull that it's never been harder than this can't possibly bring children into the world so it's it remains the most important message if your next question is going to be what the fuck do we do about it uh i fear i don't think money works really it's and this is why i'm a little bit obsessed with israel because israel do seem to have cracked it but only demography but only because they're under huge historical pressure the Holocaust and today in a very naughty bad neighborhood so you know as Paul Morland you've had a friend of mine Paul and the demographer says in is in Tel Aviv if you're at a dinner party or on the beach and you haven't got three kids people want to know why you know these are not it's not Haredi Jews these are you know ordinary easygoing freewheeling types so I in terms of what you do I I the great question for me is do you stigmatize do you anathematize do you say to somebody pushing a dog in a pram it's not a baby stop you do we do we stigmatize uh that's that's do politicians stigmatize it do you signal to people that they are they're not pulling their weight you say if you don't have children you can have children we're going to tax you more because you're not you're not providing for the future like people who are bothering to have tomorrow's soldiers nurses and taxpayers I don't know I just know these are really sticky questions that nobody wants to address and look I mean it was only a couple of years ago uh AOC the uh the American senator she showed she shared on her social media she's 36 years old her injecting herself because she's freezing her eggs and you know one of the things we haven't yet had a chance to address it properly because we're we're working on the right person and there are a few people we want to bring on do you know the one conversation Francis and I meet people you know we go to events whatever the one conversation that's no one that no one's having in public but everyone is having in private is women in their 30s mid to late 30s early 40s who are talking about doing IVF yeah trying to have kids and having miscarriage after miscarriage et cetera et cetera and they're going we were all lied to we were all feminism lied to us technology lied to us science lied to us Society lied to us and told us we can have everything we can wait we can defer we can delay and we really want children and now we can't and coming out of the mouth of a man it's the most grotesque and offensive thing and everyone gets upset but a lot of women are now privately saying this and it's there's no getting away from it the society lied that we lied to women it's a fact and the education system is not going to change and the education system as well I agree and when Dorothy Byrne formerly I mean I hate to say it but she was formerly the boss at Channel 4 News she's now a head of an Oxford College she got in a lot of trouble three or four years ago when she lectured her young female students and said don't forget the graphs don't forget to have children the fertility graphs are against you um my my late wife was a freak she we had uh she yes she can't she can't sue me she's dead she um we had our first child she was 36 on the cusp of turning 37. don't try this at home she had five children in her 40s yeah yeah and unfortunately my I have five daughters we had five daughters and a boy uh I think I fear that my my daughters will look at that and think that's relatively normal it's so freakishly abnormal so my job one of my jobs in life is to say to my daughters you you need to be you need to have your ducks in a row by 27 28 because yeah and it's it's awful isn't it I mean we don't I didn't worry about it and um but if you're you know if you ain't got that mortgage in place you haven't got a bloke in place and you're 33 you're clock clock clock clock it's a nightmare but we need to have the conversation because what's the alternative that we live in a fantasy world which is currently what we're doing in more ways than one and then unfortunately you've got to wake up at some time and by the way you know if you're concerned about the changing nature of the country um of all the tools available to you personally other than the pencil in the voting booth which doesn't strike me as particularly effective these days you only have one other option I agree um and and by the way as you hinted there are communities that have absolutely no problem with this they have no problem having children they are having them and uh you know if you play that movie forward it's the most passionate most the most patriotic thing you can do is to have children you give yourself a stake in the future to answer the question you you you balance the equation which is you you don't want to rely on immigration to make this country work so what are you going to do you you there's got to be people feeding into hospitals and shops and schools and all that wiping the asses of the elderly who's going to do it Zach Polanski isn't not going to do it Colin on that happy note it's it's been a genuine pleasure for us um before we ask you our final question and before we go to questions from our supporters on sub stack tell everybody where they can find your way uh on outpost please have a look at it on sub stack because we get paid on sub stack uh please subscribe if you're willing to do that it will be hugely generous and appreciated uh YouTube is building nicely as is Facebook and and Twitter they follow me but follow out post Studios is a place to go out post pictures we keep changing our game but that's not helpful and final question is always the same what's the one thing we're not talking about that we really should be we're not talking about demography we're not talking about tomorrow's people we're not talking about how the country looks if you can't be bothered to have children stop carping about the state of the country if you're not prepared to take a stake in its future there you go right guys join us over on sub stack where we carry on the conversation and you get to ask Colin your questions when people say do not want kids or they don't have them it because of reasons like the economy or climate change do you think they're being honest with themselves or do they simply not want the responsibility of parenting foreign Tammy regularly hauls stuff to her kids at college that's why she shops at BJ's Wholesale Club saving up to 25 off grocery store prices beef jerky microwave meals laundry pods even they can't screw up have you met my kids and with BJ's gas she gets there 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