“The W Wears Prada” WNBA Season Preview

It's Bob and everybody, it's Logan Murdock here from the ringer, the 2025-2026 NBA season is here and we got your group podcast needs covered. On the ringer NBA show, be sure to check out group chat with Justin Barrier, Rob Mahoney and Jake Hyleman on Sundays and Wednesdays and real ones. On Tuesdays and Fridays with myself, Roger Bell, and Howard Beck, get your ringer-related NBA podcast fix on Spotify or wherever you get your podcast. And of course, come find us on YouTube, Twitter, Instagram, and TikTok at the Handel Ringer NBA. Welcome to the Rigor WNBA podcast. I am joined by my three and not the Roman of the Defector. She is a woman sports writer who is currently working on a book called You Can't See Me. The inside, the new golden age of women's basketball that chronicles the power shift in how players are valued in women's basketball. And today, I'm very excited for today's episode because we are doing a mashup of a WNBA preview coded to the Devil Wars product, the W. Where's Prada? One might even say. In celebration of the new movie, The Sequel, we're going to be previewing the WNBA season through the tinted, oversized black sunglasses that you can if you're watching some video see on our faces. Right. Now we will be judging. We will be trend forecasting. We will be looking at the long-term future of big characters like Kathy Engelbert, the near-term future of Caitlin Clark, Paige Becker, Angel Reese, Asia Wilson and more. And while, like Andy, we all have to work on the content farm, we'll try to give you a little bit more than a WNBA fast-fashion preview. I do have to admit though, my three, watching Andy, a journalist navigating the financial decimation of her profession. I think a lot of people had, and I'm in this movie and I don't like it feeling. Yes. Are you, I have to ask, are you a person who types in the CMS? I don't know what that means. Do you type your articles like in the thing already? No. I'm in Google Drive. Okay. Yeah. I'm also a, I actually use Microsoft Word like the old lady that I am and then paced, but I know, I know some coworkers were inspired to see that they are not alone in typing directly into the, into the, I think that's bold. If I was like on a CMS type platform, I would definitely be in some sort of document beforehand, simply because like, I'm the type of person. If I have to send a risky text message, I'm in my notes app. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. We're, we're on the same page there. I did want to ask you though, before we get to the WNBA front, because there are so many, you know, is this play about us moments in the Devil Wars Prada, which is essentially a journalism movie, masquerading as a fashion movie? Did you have moments where you felt particularly too seen? Yes. The reporter friend that I saw it with and I, we were both remarking at the writer, like a male writer character who looks like literally every single one of our coworkers and is dressed like everyone we've ever worked with. So we, like immediately after the movie went online to find like a screen cap from the movie that we could send around. She was particularly struck by the scene of the kind of opening scene of Andy winning an award, like at the same moment that she's laid off from a newspaper. So yes, lots of, lots of not so great moments of recognition in the movie for sure. There were definitely some torturous moments. Did that guy even have a name? He was like emotional support journalism friend wearing like a tattered button up in a New York Yankee's hat and the same cockies he's had for 10 years. He's everyone. That's why they left him nameless is because they knew that we were just going to project our own co-workers and associates. The literary license being taken there, that's very impressive in a movie full of Easter eggs. I can't speak to the particular workplace trauma of working for a magazine. I've kind of always been on the digital side of things. There was a moment where, you know, Andy, she's doing all this smart work that nobody's reading because it's not fun or engaging or eye-plopping. And her assistant basically says, well, maybe you need to find a way to make it both. And this is basically a movie that's doing that. It's like shoe warning all of these really interesting critiques about modern media in a fashion movie while having a character dealing with that very nuance. I am watching this movie, first of all, for my own enjoyment, but also because I am trying to make my podcast more fun, that one hit me. That one hit me in the place that I didn't really, I didn't feel good about it. Yeah, and I'm in this photo and I don't like it. I'm Leo pointing at the meme, but I am squirming around. It was not a good moment. I need in my emotional support, journalistic writer with me that I did not have. And I do think this brings me to our first segment. I think a lot of the conversation around the movie is like kind of about the reproduction of our entrenched. This isn't too much of a spoiler because it happens kind of right away, but the thing that brings Annie and Miranda together is a runway journalist being duped by a brand that's engaging in fast fashion. And it got me thinking, there's like kind of nothing new under the sun, nature to our jobs as well as sports raiders, like the hot take artistry, the preseason predictions. There's a repetition and sometimes a sloppy reproduction that almost feels like a little IP driven, right? Like there's just natural repetition that is authentic, like the narrative framework of a new season and training camp and preseason and free agency. There's a lot of optimism, there's hope, there's uncertainty. Some of that stuff can feel authentic. I also do think that sometimes we do start to smell our own for it a little bit. So on that note, what I thought we could do is pitch each other our biggest preseason takes and try to figure out a way to workshop them. And essentially try to make our ideas sound less like fast fashion knockoffs and maybe more more like an original piece. How do you feel about that? That sounds great. Okay. Do you have one to start? I do, mine is about the developmental player spot. I feel like I'm immediately like the scene where Andy used like commissioning her a little climate change article that no one reads because I'm like, I love it, no, no, no, no. We're going to spice it up. I take that I've sort of been thinking about is I'm not sure that it looks like what people envision it being or like kind of what we idealize the developmental player spot being. I think like in my head, before this all started, my image was of the like Pascal Seacum style dream where you have this like, you know, two way player who you're slowly but surely becomes an NBA star for that team. And I'm curious to see how WNBA teams actually use their developmental player spot. You don't have to use it, I believe. So some teams may not use them at all, but I wonder if rather than it being a let's keep this kind of raw young player around our team, I wonder if it sort of ends up just being a pool of like older players who are more of like a break in case, break glass in case of emergency. And so I wonder how much development is actually going to be done. This is sort of inspired. And maybe I'm overreacting here to the way that the links use their prospect on a Mesa Hoff, who is 29 years old, they use their spot on a Mesa Hoff, who is 29 years old and has played in Europe and, you know, does not have the WBA service time. So it's like by the letter of a law would qualify for one of these spots. But I think is maybe not the the imagined beneficiary of a spot like this. Well, yes, I think the developmental roster spots for anybody who doesn't know. They were added into the new CBA, every team gets two developmental roster spots that don't count against the salary cap and this designation was basically designed to ease the burden on players who aren't maybe necessarily ready to crack the rotation and help sort of tilt the scales and what we know to be a win now league. And you're right. It hasn't necessarily played out the way they ideally you would want it to. And I think a big part of that is because a lot of franchises don't necessarily have the infrastructure yet to actually be able to develop players. I think that you're going to see the New Yorks of the world, the Valkyries of the world, the Phoenix Mercury's of the world that put a little bit more into scouting and player development actually be able to benefit from it, but this feels like a bandaid over. This feels like putting a, trying to stick with the Sartorial metaphors here, just throwing some tide to go on a really big stain and maybe throwing a jacket over it and hoping that it doesn't stink, but it still kind of stinks because we're not, a lot of franchises aren't quite there yet, nor did they want to be. And when you talk about the Minnesota links, that, it feels like maybe they are kind of saving that, using that developmental roster spa as a break glass in case of emergency injury, sort of designation, a sort of the extra outfit you have hung in your closet at where I can case something spills. I'm thinking a lot about spill. I spill a lot of stuff on my clothes, and it is, it's interesting. I think we're still at this place where, yes, there are basically like 15 new roster spots for young players, but not every team actually knows how to help young players or cares to. Cheryl Reeve, yes, drafted Olivia Miles, famously not really into the development of young players when she's trying to win a national championship. Yeah. And I mean, fair to her, I am otherwise like really impressed with how the links are working. And you mentioned international scouting, which is a potential trend I love to talk about a little later. But yeah, I'm curious because I feel like there could be some big differences in how teams use those. And I am not sure how effective exactly it'll be. Yeah. Okay. So how do we make this spicy, though? I'm working through my head a little bit because I think this is interesting and you think this is interesting. And I think it inherently is interesting. I went to the, well, this speaks to the larger dysfunction of WNBA franchise's angle, which is wild true. Perhaps getting a little bit old. I think some of my listeners are sick of hearing it. Maybe there's a different angle to go about, lost opportunities for young players, a sort of road to hell is paid with good intentions, perhaps a reverse DEI sort of narrative, not that I prescribe to that type of thinking at all. However, it's worked out very well for people who aren't on my side of the political aisle. So I don't know. What do you think? Yeah. So maybe we will see this used in surprising ways, I guess it's kind of a bit of a cop-out coward's take, but yeah, I think it's already not quite what I expected. So maybe we'll see something a little spicy and different with it. Yeah, maybe teams could find a very interesting way to use it as well. Yeah. What if you gave a player that was injured a developmental roster spot that's normally part of your rotation, and then you just kind of keep them off of your cap and pay them under the table while then kind of activating them for a playoff run? New cap-circumvention methods is also a thing to keep an eye out on. I mean, hey, like cap-circumvention, I don't think it's over just because of a new CBA. I think that teams are still going to find it way. I think a $7 million cap is still nothing to a lot of these billionaires. I don't think we're done with that. All right, so I'll do my first one, which I think is my best one because it is backed up by fact, and I actually truly believe it in my soul. The only thing is I don't have a good title for it. Here goes. Kaitlyn Clark playing off the ball will be the best thing that has ever happened to her. Off the jump, best thing that has ever happened to her, hey, but love the content. So I'm going to ask you to help me workshop a title, what I'm done here. So look, I think that there has always been sort of like this meta conversation around how much Kaitlyn Clark should play off the ball. Because this sheer notion of her playing off the ball, a vast conspiracy designed to temper her impact on the league up from high up in the old guard. And if you are into YouTube AI Slop, you might actually believe that to be true. However, I don't think that is because I don't think that Steph White is a double agent. I do think that she is a ball-nower who, as a broadcaster, had a front row seat to what Kaitlyn did at Iowa. And she knows that sometimes the best way, like it is for Steph Curry in the NBA, to get Kaitlyn Clark the ball at the end of a possession is to have her give it up at the beginning. And there has been this, like I feel like sometimes watching Indiana, it's just Iowa in molasses sort of feeling. And I was digging into the numbers, like how much is she really on the ball? How much is she really off the ball? The difference between Iowa and now is stark. I think that there's this conception because of how much of a singular force she was at Iowa that she was destroying the ball up the floor every single possession. And that was not really the case. Iowa played the beautiful game. That's part of the reason that people fell in love with them. So this is the physical part of this. In her senior year at Iowa, Kaitlyn Clark was a pick and roll ball handler, 16% of the time. She played Indiana fever last year, 36% of the time. That's a 20% jump. Isolation is about the same. She scored off cuts 5% of the time at Iowa, 1.8% of the time of the Indiana fever. She's actually, in fact, only scored off of cuts according to synergy, like six times in her WNBA career. And you might be saying skill issue, not the case. Because I went back and looked at the tape and I, she was a great cutter. She knows how to create counters off of ball denials and being top locked, which happens to her so much in the W. She also shot more spot ups in Iowa. She had more catch and shoot attempts. She shot more off of screens as well. And in Indiana, her creative burden is part of what has made her so overly encumbered. There is a sort of overly heliocentric, Luca Doncic, Tray Young plotting, and everything relying on the one decision making hub. And you get it because they're so smart, but it becomes predictable after a while. I also think that it's a source of some of the injuries as well just to be taking on such a big load. So ultimately, look, what Stephanie White is trying to do is not take Caitlin Clark away from her game. She's trying to bring her back to it. I like this take. Kind of me to sort of understand why some people are very just up in arms at the mere mention of off ball Caitlin Clark, because I think their mind immediately goes to, she's just like standing in the corner, doing nothing. And I will concede that in the limited time that she played last year, that was sometimes what off ball Caitlin would look like. And so I think some of it is just like on her to make sure that, you know, off ball does not mean totally uninvolved or, you know, uninvolved at all. But I also, it's hard for me to even look at last year. And like what were the circumstances like playing off ball and requires like lots of trust with your teammates and how could she develop that in the limited time that she played? I think like, you know, she spends so much time just injury rehabbing, I don't feel like we got like a great, you know, I think that's absolutely what Steph White wanted to do last year. But I also just, I don't really think it was possible. And so I'm still like really optimistic about what an off ball role for her could look like or what, just more off ball action for her could look like. You saw some of it in the preseason action. There was like a really good possession where Elie Boston brought the ball up. Caitlin said this like kind of mean screen and like just, you know, she has just so much gravity. That's the thing. Like the things that she is good at. And like I don't think that she has, like you said, she's a good cutter. I don't think she has like, she's strong. She doesn't have like, you know, any real physical limitations or anything when it comes to stuff like this. You know, and Elie just have like a wide open runway to the basket. And so I'm very encouraged by the idea. And the health is a big thing too. Like, it's it's always funny to me that like some people will like insist on the correctly insist on the singularity of Caitlin Clark and then just kind of be mad at the way she is guarded and defended, but you know, that's that's why she is the way she is right. And so I think just like, especially with the seasons getting longer, the playoffs are getting longer. There has to be kind of self preservation, focus for her, for really every star in the league and for every coach in the league. And so I think that is also something that that she, that the fever and that fewer fans have to keep in mind too. Mm-hmm. Absolutely. I also don't know that last year's fever team was necessarily set up to play this way. like if you remember, they went into the season saying, well, they had Sid Colson as the only backup point guard and they said that they were going to take care of that position by committee. I mean, yes, they have some good ball handlers on that team, but clearly they have reneged on that strategy because they bring in Ty Harris, they draft Raven Johnson, who I will be talking about soon. And they're actually in a position now where you can have like a real point guard setting the offense and have Caitlin playing off of them. And you're right. She does have to actually do it as well because there were moments where it was like when she didn't have the ball last year and she wasn't creating, she wanted it. And I wonder if that was a function or a directive or just like a feeling of, I'm the only point guard on the floor right now. So hopefully playing with an actual other point guard will take some of that own like internalized pressure off of her as well. And to right, she is incredibly strong. Like I think she looks stronger this year. And one thing I've noticed is that just in this preseason is that like, well, she might not have like the most lightning quick first step. She is using her strengths a lot more. And the reps also are, I think they're emphasizing way more of like freedom of movement for guards. I think they're over calling some things in the preseason, not just against Caitlin. I think like watching that wings game yesterday, it was kind of a similar deal where I think that they're just trying to really get it into player systems that this is a way that the game is going to be referee now. So I think that will also kind of help her a little bit as well and just be like, let her be a little bit more unimpeded. But yeah, okay. So dude, title, best thing that's ever happened to her come on. Like, what am I doing there? Like this is actually like a pretty good take that I am. I don't, I kind of like it. Hello. It's, it's, it'll, uh, it'll look great on a, on a magazine cover. Best thing that's ever, it's so wordy and it's so, it's so vague. And it's like, she's in her third year. She's so young, best thing that ever happens to her. There are so many things that could happen to her. What could be better than that? What should be better than playing off of the ball? Oh, it's so true. You love the beautiful game just as much as I do. I really do. Okay. All right. What's your, what's your next one? This one is like super inside baseball. But I actually feel like it's appropriate given the film that we just watched. Um, I believe in, in this off season, you have lost two different, uh, ringer W. M. A. Show guests to front office jobs. Is that right? Um, and so my, my, my training, if you, if you go back to last year, Mark Schindler as well. Yes. Okay. I wasn't sure about that. Yeah. Yeah. Uh, Kevin Pelton, who is now working for Houston and Ben Pickman, who now works for Portland. Right. Um, and so my prediction is that we, we maybe, uh, lose another, we have another fallen soldier, uh, joins, joins the dark side, um, because I think we are going to keep seeing just teams staffing up. There are just going to be more like front offices to start with. Um, and I think they'll be looking for people who have that institutional institutional knowledge. So how do you feel about your institutional knowledge? And you want to put your hat in the ring? Look to your left. Look to your right. One, one of you will be the Cleveland Rockers assistant GM next. Um, I mean, you're a Detroit native. Yes. I would, I do want to work for the Detroit front office. I just want to complain about, I'm, I'm so looking forward to just being a like actual fan of it. I'll be on the A. D. M. And so I just want to rage post online. I'd superfer being on the sidelines. I'm more of a takesman than I am a decision maker. I think I can have a best of both world. It's sort of like, uh, Kalangelo, like burner situation where I work for the team and then I'm just like, uh, well, you have to like everything to me. Yes. Absolutely. You're my first call. And we, we could bring you on like, um, we could like do like the voice box thing that like disguises your voice and like the, the sun, the sun glasses can get even bigger. I love it. We'll talk, we'll talk. This is another, another plot of the movie, right? Is Emily. Leaves for, uh, for the other side for the, for the fashion side of it. And so, oh, yeah. See, I was thinking more Andy getting fired from her journalism job and, and going to work at a magazine where she was at least stated media. She stays in media. Yeah. I guess she stays in media. A very different kind of media. Certainly. Um, I like, I think you're right. I think we're going to see a lot more of that. And to your previous point, perhaps some people who excel in the player development side of things. Um, all right. My next one is pagebeckers will be a top three MVP candidate this season. Um, I have already gone really long and deep on everything that I'm excited for about the Dallas wings this season. So I won't stick on the point too long. But the one thing that, I love about pagebeckers is that she has such a perfect game. Like she can score from anywhere on the floor. She's got like the tightest handles. Um, she is also one of those players. This is maybe where, this is maybe where the take lies. I think tales of pagebeckers, deference, um, are old news at this point. It is, it is a take that we actually perhaps need to retire. The notion that she is too unselfish for her own good. Um, this is a player who last year, a third of her possessions came as the pick and roll ball handler. Um, I think that she was top seven amongst rookies all time in scoring, uh, last year, a decimal point ahead of her teammate, Riki Gumbawale, who was known for letting it fly, um, and less than a decimal point, uh, behind Caitlin Clark, with whom she's always seen as like being her more careful, um, foil, right? I think those days with, with page are gone. I think she is absolutely letting it fly. And now she is alongside a coach who wants to make her even more efficient wants to have her step out behind that, that three point line. Look, we love the mid-ranger. We love her ability in the mid-range, but we love efficiency more. And she was a 44% shooter on unguarded catching through shoot threes last year. Um, she's going to have the ball in her hands a ton. I think, um, Dallas is going to play really fast. I think that they finally have, like, really good pick and roll targets around her as well. Like she was one of the best pick and roll players last year, even though like her only target was Lee, who came in at the mid-season trade, and then like everyone she had chemistry, which just like kept getting injured. Now they have Jess Shep. Now they have a line of Smith. Um, they got me back. They've definitely got some versatility. A walk year. We'll see what happens with her. Um, her teammate easy foot, excellent spot-up shooter. They have the spacing, re-gays back. I think everything is in order for Pagebeckers to, like, cement herself as one of the best players in the WNBA. The place with us take that I am struggling is top three just feels like a bit. I mean, I feel like top three is accurate, but maybe it's on spicy enough. Maybe I, maybe I sacrifice some accuracy, um, for top some hot take artistry or just go straight up MVP. I, the problem is I don't actually think she's going to win the MVP award, like, Asia Wilson exists. Um, however, I don't know, it's top three. Am I, am I being too, am I being too careful? I think that's bull actually just giving out, given how hard it is for a guard to like sniff, uh, MVP candidacy or like the top of the MVP balance and a league that is just so, so stocked with, uh, like superstar two way fours. Uh, I think, I think that was plenty bold. And yeah, I, uh, it's, it's easy to forget maybe in the kind of muck that was the wing's season, but that, that would mean that was like one of the better ISO scoring seasons we've seen. Like page was, was really able to, to create from it for herself. Um, and yes, I am like really high on the wings actually, uh, after like their front court just, uh, made me want to die, uh, for like four straight years. Uh, it is, it is nice, uh, to, to finally see that they've, they've fixed that. I like to their, uh, off season wasn't, we can talk about this little later, but it wasn't like, you know, super flashy names or anything, but it was like, you know, there was some addition by subtraction, but it's just like, what is the thing about our team that like really was not working? And can we just by getting some like even replacement level or like decent players, I think they could have made a big difference but they got some legit great options there. So we can talk about it right now. We can sacrifice the future bit. Yeah. You know, as you said, a lot of the movie was a lot and a lot of the fashion industry is like, you know, you, you descend from, from high fashion into the knockoffs and the downs wings, uh, being sort of just the knockoff of the links front court is, is a knockoff by, I admire because, you know, there's, there's a reason to that you copy, you copy the, the grades, right? This straight up Jack, there's style like straight up just like at a higher price point, basically, a lot of Smith became, went from like, what's a company that's done this in recently? That's like scaled themselves up to being high fashion. Um, they, she became like a Birken bag that priced herself outside of Minnesota links range and the Dallas wings decided to splurge on her and they they decided to get your ship at the same time. - Yeah, and they've I styled it well, I admire this knockoff very much. - Me too. - Sensible pieces, sensible wardrobe pieces that you know are gonna be part of your regular rotation. - Timeless, timeless classics. - Timeless classics. - Absolutely. - Versatile too. - Versatile, yes. - Linus Smith, she can shoot three, she can block shots, she can set screens for you, she can do a lot of different things for you, as well. And Jess Shep can do a little bit more for you than maybe you think as well. I like that. I like that. I have no notes, I have no notes on that one. That's beautiful. Okay, I'll go. Asia Wilson, and this is where I'm digging deep into the basketball reference stat finders, specificity stuff. Asia Wilson will have the first 20.10 rebound four assist season in WNBA history. The con with this one is that it actually is not even that bold of a prediction. She averaged 23 and a half, 10 and three last year. The first two, yes, feel like pretty safe. Well, all she has to do is turn three points into one assist from last year. And the thing is she gets better every year. She's been working on her playmaking. She's playing with really talented offensive pieces. I kind of just feel like she will, like in classic Asia Wilson fashion, she will make history and it will somehow feel ordinary. - Yes, that is her want, isn't it? - It is. The only person that's ever come close is Candice Parker with 16 games, averaged 19, 10 and six. I don't know what happened that season. Maybe she got hurt or something. I guess the only thing is I question whether she even should pass. She was just as well as on-carded shots as she does on-carded ones, because she's just like that freaking good. But they're going to have a ton of offensive talent. So I remember in the first half of last season, sort of pre-aces magically figuring everything out, there was like a moment where she kind of, she said that she had sort of snapped at Chelsea and said that she should not have more assists than Chelsea. So perhaps you will adhere to that mindset once again. - Maybe, maybe. I think Chelsea Gray could be in for a bit of a Renaissance season as well. She name check Rebecca Brunson as the only player who has more titles in her. Gray has four titles. I think that's the most out of any active WNBA player. And like if they went in fifth, that puts her in, that probably makes her the greatest point guard of all time. It probably punches her up above Superard. When you think about the fact that she will have one, like two, and she's already won two titles, two different franchises. Like you can already make the argument. This would just be her saying it's me. I am the point guard. Speaking of point guards, this one I'm going to workshop a little bit. So I started off with Raven Johnson will break Tamika Ketchings' rookie record for total steals. The reason that this is a bit of a con is because she'll have 12 extra games to do it. All of the sort of like all time stuff in WNBA history is kind of gonna get bastardized by the fact that there are 44 games in the season now and a lot of the great players in the past only have 32. But the problem is I don't believe she will break Ketchings per game record. So I can't go all the way there. However, where I might go is Raven Johnson is not yet, not this season might eventually be the first WNBA player in this decade to win the defensive player of the year award while being a guard. - Wow. - That's a little bold even for me. - That's too much, it's too much. - It's too much, right? I believe Tamika Ketchings in that season set the single game steals record later broken. 'Cause I think Teacher Petatero has 10. But I think Tamika Ketchings was nine. - Yeah, Teacher has 10. Do we think Raven Johnson could do that? - Gabby Williams came close I want to say last year. I remember she had like a crazy half. And then maybe like, 'cause I remember eyeing the record thinking that she was gonna do it and then didn't have as many in the second half. But I think it's in play. Raven has gotten to Indiana and she kind of just turned into Hannah Hedoggo. Like you just can't pass the ball around her. Like you have to like kind of like play away from her in a way and we know she can guard all kinds of different players. She has a neck also for stealing back her own turnovers as well, like you see anticipation ability there and just like the get back as well. Could we see some Shakenery? Could this be like the first ever season that I don't think Raven Johnson's a type of player to do this, but could this be the first ever season where there's an opportunity for a player to try to get the steals record by turning the ball over and then just trying to take it back. Like the like the steals version of missing a shot to get your own rebound. - I've been thinking about this as a pistons fan 'cause I was admiring Cade Cunningham's room protection and like a lot of these are chased down blocks 'cause he was like being dumb and saving his own turnover. So yes, I love the idea of steal farming. - I like that. - I like the idea also of block farming by like maybe you like slow down and transition and you let the person think that they're gonna get like before you just like swatted out of the air. - Yeah, we need more. We need more inventive forms of stat padding. - Boy, we need to scale it to other, like we think about points and rebounds a lot. We need to like assist Russell Westbrook whether he's on Rondo, that one is well known, but steals blocks. If he wanted to get really nerdy with his screen assist, like just start setting unnecessary screens even when your offensive player doesn't need one, although that kind of maybe puts him in a bad position. But that doesn't matter, it's purely about stat farming so we don't care about what it does to the broader ecosystem of the team. - Oh no, no, it's all about the numbers here as his clear quality does not matter. As long as those numbers are getting racked up and we can make a headline that's like, Lauren Beds could do this. Lauren Beds could end up being the rookie block leader as well. Simply by sheer will of 44 games versus 32, she's got Margot Dideck I think ahead, like and Brittany Grider is like the two biggest pieces of competition there. But those, all of those might be a little bit sheepen, so I'm gonna workshop those. All right, let's take a little break and then we'll move on to the second segment of the show. All right, okay, we are back for segment two where we are asking some trend-quoted questions. I'll start with you. All right, three, what is the latest WNBA trend that you think is just a passing fad? You mentioned to the game, maybe being officiated differently based on the preseason that freedom of movement seemed like it was being emphasized a million different like moving screens and stuff called lately. But I kind of skeptical that this is like a real change. I think like you said, it felt like maybe some over correction and I would not be surprised if we found ourselves like a month and change into the WNBA season and things were kind of as normal. I think some of it is just because there's been a lot of good reporting on the structural reasons that WNBA officiating is where it is and why players are so dissatisfied with it, why coaches are so dissatisfied with it. And while I do think the league does have some top-down power in terms of setting that stuff, I still think it'll take a little bit longer before we see a real light in the listeners on some of these structural issues. Yeah, just that WNBA referees aren't paid as well, that the pool is a little bit different. Like good refs are maybe quite a quote promoted, right? To the NBA, even though they make more money and they have benefits in real salary. Right, right. And so like that stuff I think has to get fixed before it feels like there's a real like functional repping ecosystem and so. I also think pre-season is pre-season for everyone and everyone's still kind of just feeling stuff out and so it's sort of like the video you always see of your center like hitting open threes in the gym and you're like, "Yes." So and then you never see that in the game. This is me watching Carl Smesco working with Angel Reece on her three-point shot. This is about me, yeah. So my own optimism there is a little tempered, I would say. Okay, okay. So I think that yes, you're right, there are quality control issues that definitely need to be eaked out. That won't be for a little while yet. Probably worth doing a follow-up on where all that sort of stuff stands as well. However, I do believe that the repping union, I don't think that their CBA is actually up for another few years. So that definitely causes a snag. I do think though that the style of refereeing, like quality is one thing, but I do think that the style of refereeing is going to permanently shift. I just think that the players, the fans, everybody is spoken out about feeling like the game has just gotten too physical. I think something like obviously Nafisa Collier talked about that in a host of other things after she got hurt and she's certainly not the only one. one as well. I don't, I think we're past the point of, oh, it's fine. If it's all rough the same way, I think that there's just a degree of like, come on, did. And I think that that's something that comes with the players actually being paid more money as well. And this can come with, you know, once you over index a little bit too much, you can get negative like it has with the NBA where you can't even touch a player. However, I think that with the NBA or WNBA, we're kind of at this point where like, okay, if we're paying these players millions of dollars, the institution itself is going to start to go out of its way to protect them more than they did in the past. Yeah. And the just public pressure might now be a thing as ineffective as it seems in a moment. Like there's a reason that people yell at rafts or like make kind of big statements that press conferences between games in the series, like you sort of want that to be living in the back of their head. And yeah, if I would not be surprised if that were kind of a big factor for them or at least just the sort of yeah, mental kind of gamesmanship actually working. Well, it always be their human beings at the end of the day. And that's sort of thing works on human beings in my in my experience. Speaking of public pressure, I am going to get to my would you like lies? Would you like some lies with that segment? This is based on a meme that I thought was really funny because it seemed like it was an AI generated meme in the movie, but they actually paid an artist to make an image that seemed AI coated of Miranda Priestly, like working at McDonald's to the caption being would you like some lies with that? I thought that was just a sort of like, oh, yeah, it was delightful. It just adhered to a solution of like AI and they nailed it too. Like the kind of when when the artist posted like a full image, I could zoom in and fully appreciate it more. And I have this or like blurry like fake letters in the background on the menu. And yeah, this is it. What does it say to you that it's one thing for AI to be ceiling artists work? What does it say to you that the AI can in the AI style is also influencing the work of human artists? I know. I know. It's like a little too met a reciprocal for me. It's tough. Like it's like kind of like when I see now when I see writing that is a little bit AI coated, I don't know whether to actually think that it's AI or if people are becoming so influenced by. Yeah, I'm afraid when I use M dashes, I'm like, does this sound like and I love the or the sentence construction where you're like, it's not blank. It's this like would be the great chat GPT tell. I'm like, I guess I can never use that. I know. And it's like, there were time I didn't use it as much as AI uses it, but there were times when it made sense. And now I'm like, man, does it sound like I'm getting AI to write these articles for me stuff. So my would you like some lies with that, which is, you know, essentially the biggest mainstream lie that we are debunking is the notion of Kathy Engelberg's job security being safe. I think that there is sort of an idea percolating that because the CBA has been done and it's sort of, it's being deemed a success in the sense that we aren't losing any games, um, that Kathy is safe. And I just I don't believe that to be the case. So you mentioned refereeing. There are still a lot of things that need to be fixed in this league. I like that you're like adjusting your posture for this one. You're like, I can feel you locking in. I felt you, I can see you locking in for this. Um, I, I think that this is like kind of her victory lap year before she rides off into the sunset, like she'll get her golden parachute. But the sense that I'm getting, um, is that the future of the WNBA is going to be shepherded by somebody that the stakeholders believe have more of a long term vision for what the league can be. And while Kathy deserves credit for getting the league to where it is. And she's also certainly some places, um, where she deserves to take some of the blame, um, she is probably not that person. Um, she was questioned on her own job performance. Yeah, I was going to say this is a pretty anti-feminist segment of you. I would, I would, I criticize a male commissioner. Do male commissioners get criticized or ask how long they plan to stay in the job? Yeah. So, uh, Kathy Engelbert was asked by Madeline Kenney of the New York Post, um, about, uh, her, her, her job status as there has been, by the way, no update on it. So it's a very valid question, especially given the amount of heat she's taken from, uh, players and anonymously from people around the league for, um, the last year or so. I think it's more than a valid question. Um, and as Kathy responded to it, um, saying, you know, I wonder if you would ask this question to a woman. And I would say that she absolutely would. Um, and while, look, I am not one to downplay sexism, I will say that as far as the treatment of commissioners goes, Kathy gets kid gloves compared to Adam Silver and Roger Cadill and Gary Betman and, and, and Rob Manfred, um, I think we've been actually quite human. Yeah, we need, we need much louder booze at the job, uh, before, before she gets out of the, um, I'm going to pitch some names that I think could. Oh, these are educated guesses. This is not like, don't aggregate this basically as one I'm saying, um, Susan Rice, famously the former UN ambassador, um, and NSA advisor under Barack Obama, women's basketball fan and of Kiki Rice, subly and B.A. aunt. Now, yes, WNB aunt. Yes, um, yeah, I was watching her tweet about UCLA and I was like, there's no way you went to UCLA. Like, you did not go to UCLA. Um, she did not, but her, her niece Kiki Rice did, um, would be obviously a slam dunk as far as like name recognition capability goes, um, would be the easiest job that she's ever had. And would immediately be somebody that, I mean, Adam Silver would actually have to listen to her. Like, you just, you can't bring Susan Rice into that job and then have her be a puppet master for the NBA. That's just simply not how it would work. Um, Jen Rosotti, she is currently the president of the Connecticut Sun. We'll see what happens, with everybody at the Sun after the move happens with the Houston comments. She was also somebody that was very active in CBA negotiations, um, and is part of the sort of Sun transition team, such as it is. Um, she's a former player that I think players and people around the league believe that they can connect with. Um, she's certainly somebody who has that sort of like reputation of being able to probably understand both sides of the aisle. Sue Bird, though many conflict of interest there is an, is another name. She's a current team USA director. She's a former player. She's also a current owner of the Seattle storm. She has worn every single hats. If any of those circumstances were to change for her, I think she's somebody who certainly has the relationships and the communication savvy. Um, and, and probably like a degree of, of vision. Um, all right, those are my first three names and he thoughts. So this, this student rice went interest me because when you mentioned it's just like long term vision for the league. I thought of something that Kathy Engelbert said this would have been too draft to go. So 2025. What year is it? 25, the, the page draft. Um, and I can't even remember the exact question. I think it was something like, you know, what happens? I mean, this was just something she brought up on her answer, which is like, what, what is the priority after the next CBA? Because the CBA just felt like it was the thing like that that all roads were leading to that it was just, um, it was hard to kind of look past it and then see what the next league priority would be. And, and she mentioned just like global interest in the game and growing the game globally. Um, and, you know, we've seen some more like international games being floated. We have, we, you know, our first team in Canada now after some, some games in Canada. Um, and so I, I'm curious to see like how that priority, uh, take shape. And so, you know, someone, someone likes using rice or just someone who has kind of, uh, she, you know, she's a, she specifically is like an ex-diplomar, right? Yes, it was the, it was the ambassador to the, to the U.N. also, and like, just, um, someone like, it could be someone from her background or just like someone who has more, like global business ties, I think might be interesting. Um, and I think who, if, if Kathy were to leave, I, I think just the next pick would tell us a lot about what, uh, the NBA, what the owners see as like the next big frontier, uh, for the league. Um, my question, I guess about the, the job security question. So do you think this is like her riding off in the sunset? Like, my job is done or do you think it's like an actual you are being pushed out here like I'm not sure what what the departure would what would actually sometimes people agree to resign from their post a mutual parting ablaze mutual parting phrase with Ian Ford so much exactly exactly try it three more for you all right swing cash executive experience in an NBA with the pelicans another player with great relationships a former player a good communicator someone if you watch your media appearances certainly knows how to communicate information and actually tell you something while also maintaining poise as well which is obviously important for the position Bethany Donovan she's Kathy's number two she has had the reputation of being somebody who could walk both aisles I don't know how much of that reputation has sustained itself through the course of CBA negotiations and the last year especially as it pertains to refereeing which is something that um she was she was kind of overseeing on on a larger scale um and I think that there were some communication issues there I think um you know fee name checked her is as like the number two who reached out so maybe she was that sort of she maintains that position of like the liaison because she's someone who knows how to communicate well with the players and has that that gentler touch um and maybe she's kind of somebody who also the owners know that she knows how to play ball in the other way the other way as well because ultimately this is going to be somebody that the owners appoint um who works for the owners um the other one that I have is a Kia Clark the current CEO of the New York Liberty uh she is the business architect of a team that has more than any other one in the league been able to connect with and build an organic frambase she doesn't have the player experience but um she's certainly be she seems able to connect on some of a level and um the visionary aspect of this the ability to build the business of what like of what the future of the WNBA can look like it should probably look a lot like the New York Liberty um just their ability to connect with you know grassroots identity-based aspects of what makes the WNBA cool in a way that has actually felt cool is something that um I don't think everybody else has like necessarily been able to do but you go to a Liberty game a you have Ellie like Ellie is probably the biggest needle I assume that's the next name on your list Ellie has commissioner it would actually make a ton of sense that would make a ton of sense I think I I you can't offend anyone if you just don't talk right and only dance you like can only charm people really from there well it and I think that she would be a charmer but also the footsteps the footsteps of giants truly like there's an intimidation factor if cat if if Ellie was you know stomping into the conference room I just think that like if I was in that meeting I would be like my my my shoulders would definitely be clenched a little bit the literal elephant in the room I love it I think I I think the elevator I think we've solved that yeah it brings a nice touch to the room um I think I like that I like that I like Ellie that's who I'll propose um what is your I hope that's not what you're wearing to the dinner aka the choice that has confused you the most uh so today we got some news that the sky just find Natasha cloud and she had been kind of in limbo for a little bit there was some just kind of grumbling about where she was gonna end up um and I didn't expect it to be Chicago uh a lot of I had to do with just the type of player Natasha cloud is I thought that it would probably be best for her to go somewhere that needs like a one uh and I don't think the sky or really that team uh I I have to kind of applaud them here for being like we had no point guards last year therefore we need to have all the point guards this year like I I guess uh being scarred by the situation may have themselves in last year but I am kind of wondering like what the what the rotation looks like who's starting this is now a really like a big guard group or crowded guard group um and you know if only there were some like mechanism where you had to give up your players to another team um this offseason um certainly they wouldn't have like just opted out of that or more than opted out of it tried to purposely tried to stay out of that right so yeah I'm I'm not sure about this one so before I say anything about the Chicago sky I have to debut what is going to be a season long um I don't know segment in the podcast where in I every time I say anything mean about the Chicago sky I have to contribute $10 to this Chicago sky swear jar well I'm trying to really incentivize myself to pick my spots when it comes to having mean things to say about the Chicago sky okay that's more than more than I thought the cost of well it's going to go to eventually we'll go to a Chicago based charity um or mutual aid group that I have not picked yet also very open to listener suggestions on that one um but yes I don't know if you know this about me I'm a very generous magnum magnum magnum is person um that is trying very very hard not to say mean things about the Chicago sky or at least you know be better about when I pick my spots this however is is news so um what's that in mind um I will be making my first donation today um and we can go from here the point that you are getting at was that the Chicago sky made trades with the Portland fire and the Toronto tempo uh to have them agree to not take any of their players in the expansion draft in exchange for a second round pick and a second round pick trade um one of those players one would think was Haley van Lys who was waived earlier today now maybe this is part of the um developmental player roster spot thing to um to get a developmental roster spot uh players are being waived so you first have to go through the humiliating humiliation ritual of being waived and then somebody creating a graphic that says waived about you before your team signs you back on to developmental contract I don't know if Chicago's used up their developmental uh contract um slots so maybe that's still in play maybe we'll see HVL on a developmental contract I don't know uh but she had a good preseason um she's going into her second year um however there's obviously still a lot of questions about her uh viability in the WNBA they waived her they use that roster spot to sign Natasha Cloud who I like Natasha Cloud I wonder there's a lot of cards like you said are re layering too much on the top are we not following the Coco Chanel mantra of before you leave the house take one piece of jewelry off is this just too much I can also convince myself that it works like I as well maybe you need maybe you need some other maybe you need some outfits another like I'm interested that again um like maybe you just need more pants maybe need like more like I think you got you kept getting you keep getting the same shirt you know you and and that can work you can you can play you can you can you can wear them together you can have Skylar Diggins Natasha Cloud JC Sheldon Degenerate Carrington and some sort of like ultra small lineup where nobody can pass the ball um into the post I don't know that that's sustainable all the time but there are certain nights if you want to put that shit on yeah I get it I get it I don't know that it's sustainable for 44 games I would have at a certain point I start wondering about the front court you can only like do you want Camilla Cardoso Ricky Jackson great pairs of pants do you want to wear them out so early do you want to work some other things into your rotation there also there's a split piece is she now when she's back she's sharing the point guard position with Skylar and Natasha Cloud how does she feeling about this did she sign off on this yeah presumably if she's the shadow GM of the team then she she probably mastermind the thing but yeah I'm not sure I would hope I get it it's it's from the the spacing part of this uh to like you have all these back court options but like I don't even know uh how many of them like work great together um and it is now like one of the older if not the oldest uh uh like point guard rotations in the uh in the league now I guess the uh sparks guard group is maybe challenging them there but yeah this this uh is I'm not sure how to work but we'll see we'll see you mean the sparks guard group is younger by a measure as well one more question on Chicago so obviously like they wanted to make the playoffs this year right I had them at tents. Do you think that this pushes them over the edge? Do you think that this moves the needle for them? - Yeah, I'm just not really sure it does. I get the excitement and there are things that whatever this guard group looks like in the end. There were things they were very bad at last year. One of them was turning the ball over a lot. And so I can see the need to have multiple ball handlers on the team or on the court at the same time. But there's still the thing that I'm always just wary of in any off season, which is just when you sign a bunch of players that people have heard of. And so then everyone is excited about it. - Chicago had a great off season. - Yeah, exactly. And then does this actually work? And is that actually the sky or the sort of team where I feel like because all of their, I guess they're not having any issues this free agency, but they're the sort of team we're just given their situation and kind of struggles to keep great players. The sort of team you would love to see have a Phoenix style operation where they're good at finding players you have not heard of and getting the most out of them. And I feel like they're doing the opposite now. And it's a lot of names, but I'm just not sure I'd work as a team. - They are scrolling through Google images of last year's trends. - Yeah. - And buying the statement pieces of all of them and thinking that that's how you construct an outfit or a team. I don't know what they necessarily had like the free agency or they had a better free agency than I think I imagined them having. - I think that there's some parallels in the types of players that they got that are a little bit telling. Now Natasha Howard was somebody who was on-side surprisingly for a very long time and there was some speculation as to whether that was because her activism, because they were support for Palestine, perhaps because of how active she was as a player in the CBA negotiations. She named checked an owner in Jenny Gilder in Instagram Live. She did, I think that latter part might have something to do is why she wasn't signed. I just don't think owners like being mentioned and there is a sort of unfortunately a class solidarity amongst them. I don't know that the activism aspect of it was as well-founded, although with their 15 decision makers, yes, I could see some of them not being as into that, but we know that this is a league that welcomes that and there have been other players that have been active and spoken out that are on teams right now. However, with Natasha Cloud, it's like she was traded from Phoenix in a way that was absolutely brutal. She's attracting free agents and then gets kicked out of the door. She has a right to be pissed about that, but that is not an avenue for her. Connecticut is not an avenue for her. New York was a team that she was just on. Washington, she played for and I think had some things to say when she left there as well. The Chicago sky also signed, Skylar Diggins, who was outspoken about how she was treated during her pregnancy when she was with the Phoenix Mercury, also outspoken about her experiences on the Dallas Wings. Dejane Carrington is also certainly a player who is outspoken as well. And I think that Chicago has like a love-hate relationship with these kinds of players. They love the toughness and they love having a defensive identity. They love players that push each other. They hate when those players push them or speak out about them. And it's like, yeah, I don't know that you can get like if there's almost like you need to be able to play on that level then. Like if you want fiery players, if you want players that are going to speak their minds and you also have to have thicker skin than you do as an organization. And I am very curious to see how all of that shakes out as well. Yes, however the on-quart product looks, they'll be an interesting team, which is all you can hope for as a media member. This is true. They will certainly, they won't give us things to talk about. AKA, they will be making me broke. All right, my, I hope that's not what you're wearing to dinner, was the balconies sort of draft trade situation. They traded Flage Johnson to the Seattle storm for Marta Suarez and a second round pick. Flage Johnson has looked fantastic in the preseason, by the way. And Marta Suarez has since been waived. Again, could be added to a developmental roster spot, so we don't know how that one is going to shake out. They're having media day tomorrow, where Ohemma Nyanin, the GM, will be speaking. And there was a moment where it sounded like maybe she wasn't going to be speaking. I'm not sure if that was a miscommunication or a reread on a situation realization that she does need to be. Talking about some of these decisions, she absolutely flood the press conference afterwards when she could have just simply said, hey, we really like Marta, we're high on her, we're excited to have her in the door. Instead, she says she's exhausted, which everybody was, and she doesn't want to comment on strategy or the particulars of players and the decisions that they made. I don't think it was, but it made it sound like it was a veal shot at Flage, which was even worse because of the context, the half an hour context in which Bay Area fans, Black Bay Area fans, who have felt abandoned by the sports franchises that they root for in the past five to 10 years. You have the warriors moving out of Oakland, which is the, I think the Blackest City in the Bay Area, two San Francisco, a lot of fans being priced out of those tickets. You had the Oakland A's are just gone now. The Valkyries also play at the Chase Center too. And for a brief second that felt like the Valkyries, we're not only making a great draft selection, but by taking Flage Johnson speaking to the culture of the Bay Area, the potential of an E-40 collaboration, everything that she could mean to that fan base. And then they just like pulled the rug out from under them. And for a trade that already was kind of bad, and now that they've waved Mardas forage as well, and there's just no way to make this look good. There's obviously the optical aspect of it sucks because I think that they had agreed on the trade beforehand, they didn't know it was gonna be Flage A. But if you agreed on the trade beforehand, why? Why did you agree beforehand on a trade that you saw, like that, you're giving up a first rounder for basically two second rounders. Like that's just not really a very good return. Or you just mismanaged your roster spots, and now you have to wave a player that you just gave up a whole bunch of draft capital for. Or you didn't agree to the trade beforehand, but you got to A, and there's nobody you liked on the board, but even though the board shook out in a very predictable way, and you probably could have gas set like some of the players that you were into, I imagine they were probably into like an Aina Martini. If they didn't want the roster spotter, like the pay your first round pick, they could have gone draft. And like there was just no way that like tactically or optically that this looks good at all. - Yeah, it's a bit of a mess. I thought back to right after their expansion draft, which was also kind of panned and then ended up working out. And I was like, this feels like the sort of thing where like now they sort of get like extended grace or where have this halo of like they know better than everyone else. And it's possible that that is what's happened. But like now I just, I don't really see it here. And so I will be kind of keeping a closer eye on just their roster building. - I expect them to be good. But sometimes teams are good despite themselves as well. - Yeah, I think that's the best way to put it is like, sometimes it's not necessarily like a real mad scientist thing here, sometimes people just make mistakes and figure it out in the end. And it's not a product of the mad scientist maneuverings. Not always, not always. You only, you don't need to get everything right. You can get a bunch of stuff right. And it actually does give you some leeway to get some stuff wrong. Just like as a franchise, there's still an decent spot. Who is your WNBA glow up pick? Who do you expect to or want to see the biggest glow up out of in this 30th season where money, money, money and sponsor, sponsor sponsors are all involved and investing and ready to get this rocket ship off the ground? - Yeah, and off season move that caught my eye was the Lynx hiring Rachel Galligan, who was a like great writer and podcaster and was always like a good follow for me. I guess this is part of the media member to front office pipeline, but the Lynx hired her as an international scout. Cheryl Reeve specifically said that like one of her asks of the new wish teams ownership, the Lori and Irod was that type of investment. And that's something that I would be eager to see more teams kind of make similar investments in scouting. I think the Lynx have been a pretty good guy. solid pro scouting team the last couple of years. And so it's nice to see a team. Rather, I think it's easy when you when you've had you know, when you have a successful like get a off season like the one where they got Atlanta Smith and developed Bridget Carlton to like get really high on themselves and to actually like keep making investments in in those strengths is encouraging to me. And I think a good sign. And so I'd love to see more teams do stuff like that because I still feel like there is a great talent out there that we haven't quite that that no front office is quite like tapped all the all the potential out there. There's a lot of low hanging fruit out there. Like you look at what the Phoenix Mercury did last year where I didn't know who Monika Kohamakani or Katija Luxa were right or and I wasn't aware of Kathy Westbell's development. And they bring those three players and they bring Lexi Held and and that ends up shaking out a rotation that after they signed three stars, we were really worried was not going to have enough depth. Here the Mercury are again with another bunch of players who like don't have a page on ESPN or like a headshot yet and I'm going to be withholding my judgment until I actually see them play and it makes me really nervous even like right now I think they have been like ninth on my power rankings. And I'm like nervous about it because I'm like what if all of those players end up being absolute gamers. And there's a lot there's a lot of that potential out there for like other teams to take. I think the Liberty R team that have done a pretty good job at it they always have some international players. It's also a huge advantage to sign players internationally in this particular CBA because when they become free agents they are reserve role players or reserve they're on reserve deals which gives teams exclusive negotiating rights. It's why the Liberty were able to exclusively negotiate with some of their players. The Mercury were able to exclusively negotiate with some of their players as well. And that is something that I mean that's like the sort of next great sort of thing that will probably be a conversation of 2030 CBA is how do we get rid of those reserve contracts because like a lot of those players are going to end up being like criminally over underpaid. And yeah like they just it's just it's just such an advantage. It's such an advantage. It's huge. And even just those advantages generally like I think I've maybe even said this to you or on this podcast because this is something I'm talking about all the time and won't shut up about but I feel like practice facility has sort of become this shorthand for ownership investment or like front office savviness and totally agree that facilities are important that they're worth investing in. But we're kind of now at the point where that's just like that's the norm right yeah like every team has already done that it's it's so last season. And so I think the the smart front offices out there and smart organizations and organizations that have the requisite owner buy-in and investment resources like they're always going to be kind of thinking about advantages like that. And so this was an interesting hire to me because I think and hope it kind of pre-sages some more of that. All right so I'm sure you're tromping at the bit at this point we talked a lot of basketball. What did you think of the devil worst brought it to? It was good at first I was like is this just like cheap nostalgia bait to like get a theater to a clap at Meryl Streep showing up on screen? And probably yes a little bit but I'm the whole I thought it was I thought it was sweet the cast they're so good that it's just hard for them to like screw anything up. I was not feeling the love interest that is actually in keeping with for the first movie. I come from a family of like real haters of the Adrian Grenier boyfriend character so yes so so I guess that that's actually not a real departure from this guy didn't seem like awful he was just fine whatever kind of forgettable forgettable. I really enjoyed the movie and I think that they actually for as much as they could have leaned into the IP branding exercise bastardization of the original that we've seen take place with so many great movies like I thought they were reasonably restrained and tasteful about it like the only one I really didn't like was at the end where she was wearing the Cerulean sweater sweater I was I was going to ask that was that was the nostalgia bait on what she she had the sleeves cut off. Yeah but like it was a little modified it just wasn't something that modern day Andy would have worn it was the worst outfit that she wore and like she was wearing like all these dark colors and like her style a clearly evolved past the Cerulean sweater like I just don't think that we needed to see it again I think that that could have just been like a monument to the first movie were there any any favorite fits of yours in the film the assistant Simone Ashley yes every single outfit she she got some great ones especially in the the they have the another montage like like the great montage in the first movie they had another montage in which Simone Ashley figured and I thought she yeah she got some good looks in that one yeah I don't think she missed a single outfit um I enjoyed some of the nostalgia bait like I hate fan service until I'm the fan you know like that's when I'm like if they're servicing me it's fine like I was I was watching the movie at the at the grove in LA um and when Lady Gaga came on the screen me and a role full of game and just gasped like audibly cast I thought that was a fun reveal and like well I think the preview like the first devilish product was very hard for them to get cameos everybody was like very scared of of Anna went towards that's something that um Sean and Amanda talked about on the big pick podcast and I think this time around they would have had like their pick of the litter right like everybody would want to be in this movie and I think that they were like pretty good with who they chose like I think like we got I mean we got like obviously a ton of people in the fashion industry but like the random celebrity cameos like John Batista we got a basketball one as well we got Carl Anthony Towns wait so uh here's my question what series was she talking about do we think she said it was a great series I mean I was it was it was it like pre manifesting a great playoff series because we know that Anne Hathaway is a huge nix fan maybe was she was she like talking about nix hawks in like the present sense like it was that could just show you think they knew that the movie was gonna come out around the time of like the first time yeah she was she really called her shot there called her shot she knew called her shot I like that I like that that's smart um carous swisher like the tech signaling uh journalist I thought was fun as well uh more in a style debate but it was nice to see the twins the grown up uh twins from the first movie were yes at that same party with Carl Anthony Towns and care swisher oh I didn't catch that I didn't catch that it was like uh they didn't have any speaking parts or anything but okay see them in the in the cut civil to all the different slabs that was a fun easter egg that was definitely a fun easter egg um like you I did not care for the love interests like the first movie I did not care for that love interest either there's just a sense of like other than Nigel who's played by Stanley Tucci like what is a man doing here what is a man doing here like I don't you don't bring any like you you there's no romantic tension between you there's more romantic tension between like her and Emily blunt and her and like Meryl Streep her and Nigel then there is between her and this mad and like they do the same force banter stuff like you cannot like they tried they try to get you to care about Adrian Grenier with a fucking like like a girl she sandwich I don't care about that man I don't want to see that man in this movie I guess I actually thought that'd be like one of the upgrades because I feel like the movie did a really good job of like the update from like 2006 to 2026 overall with like the state of the media industry just a way that people act in dress now like the way that media is consumed the memes of of of of of of Miranda thought were awesome as well but like I just saw it like this version of this movie I just don't think that like the Andy and the Andy's that I know in my life like really need a man to be fulfilled no it felt a little a little tossed in there so yeah I well in in praise of one man unfortunately I did enjoy it just in Thoreau seemed like he was having fun with his little like Jeff Bezos character he you know it wasn't like a super meaty role or anything but he made the most of it I know those awesome Justin Thoreau like as a facially reconstructed billionaire there was like a way in which it was almost in conversation with succession I think there was a point where he even said like I don't even know anyone named Kendall while he's like the billionaire that's being mocked relentlessly through the course of the movie for like I don't know like for like reinventing his face which is also a strange critique coming from the fashion industry but I don't think I mean I there's a nuance and it's kind of like one of the the strengths of both of the movies, but I also think one of the flaws is that like, I don't think either movie really knew what it wanted to say about consumerism or ambition. Like it just offers a lot of different takes on it and then lets you sort of decide what you want to take from it, which is fine. But which is fun. I mean, it's the devilish product. It's a devilish product. It's not where, it's not really necessarily where I'm going for that. The BJ Novak character also just like, it's in like the Patagonia, sweater vest, like premium athletic wear, golf, apparel, love it. Just the classic attire of a consultant who is going to completely gut your company. Like if somebody comes in to your workplace wearing that, just like, it's done. Like pack your boxes, it's done, yeah. But fun movie though, I just like one of the theater. - I had fun, yeah. I also like going to the theater. I was thinking as I walked out of it, I should go to the movies more because I've gotten mad about that in the last couple of years, but it was a good theater movie too. - It was a good theater movie. There were a lot of bells and whistles like at the Grove, which naturally, of course. But I just love, I love like watching people leave a movie theater, like the sort of like, they're readjusting their eyes and faces to like the world within you perspective that are like talking to their friends. There's like almost like a sleepy sort of feeling to watching people leave the movie theater that I've always enjoyed. - They left and they were like, journalism does matter. - Is that what they wanted to see? - Printed away from them. - They were like, print is so back. - Print is so back. We found the right, we found the right billionaire and we are so back. - What are my friends who I saw the movie with didn't like it because they didn't feel like the emotional stakes were quite there, but I feel like that's kind of just like the reality of like creating things in 2026. - Yeah, I think there was a, that's a point. - Also the nice about how uncertain they felt afterward, like it still didn't feel like they were on totally stable ground and they probably were not. It's just being in a media industry. And so if again, it felt very uncomfortably true. - To the industry, I appreciated that accuracy. - I did, I did appreciate that aspect of it. Although they tried to stick the landing in a way with Miranda like softening her character as well as like, I can't know. Like I, in every universe, Miranda's the villain and Emily's the hero. Like we're not, I don't care that she betrayed her. She was well within her rights to do so. - Probably my least favorite scene is where she like has this heart to heart with Nigel about how she's taken and for granted and I was like, nope. - No one's had to be cut. - No, but that did not happen. It did not happen. Although maybe her reaction, like her, this is part of her softening is in a more PC landscape where she can't exactly. There's like, there's some jokes about she like, you know, can't throw jackets at her assistance anymore. - Yes, and has to hang up her own code. - Yeah, a whole ordeal. - That was funny. I enjoyed that they didn't lean too much into like, there's a version of this movie that's like, Miranda Priestley gets canceled and Andy comes in as like the PR consultant. Like they could have totally went like Lidia Tar was it and I think that would have been like a worse movie. I think that I liked it like the PC stuff was just like, the stuff jokes. - Yes. - Any other thoughts in the movie? Any other thoughts on WNBA basketball? - No, I don't, I don't have any. I'm excited for it to like, actually start. One, I often complain that the like, women's basketball off season is short, slash non-existent. But I also like that you just get into the, get into the action right away. Like I do not envy my colleagues who have to do like, 27 weeks worth of mock drafts around 50 or like, let's make everyone trade their picks. Like no, we can just have the basketball start really soon. So I'm excited for that to happen. I'm excited for tunnel fits. I'm excited for who Agile Reese said today that she is not gonna be the only WNBA player at the Mac Gala. So we will see who well shows up. - That's a really fun reveal. - That feels like a fitting ends to today's episode. - Yes. - Caitlin Clark, actually, I don't think she's the devil, but she does actually wear a product. - She does wear a product. - Wow. - Wow. - I didn't consider that. Yeah. She almost exclusive. - The devil plays off ball. (laughing) - All right, thank you, Maya 3. I appreciate you coming onto the show. You can read her work at the Defector. Watch out her for her book coming out in 2027. You can't see me inside the new golden age of Women's Basketball that chronicles the power shift and how players are valued in Women's Basketball. Thank you to Chris Sutton, Donald LeBlancchio, Alexa Kubal, Steve Analman, and Ben Cruz for all of the production assistants and making this show happen every week. If you wanna listen to our other preview content, we power ranked every team over the course of three episodes, five teams per episode. And we will be back on Thursday for more season preview talk as well as some MVP chatter. We talked rookie of the year last week with Steve Jones. If you want to hear some actual experts talk about the Devil Wars Prada. Listen to the big picture. Sean Fennancy and Amanda Dobbins went deep on that movie. That was a really fun listen. And for now, that's all. - Anything is possible. (upbeat music) ♪ Anything is possible ♪ (upbeat music)