The View From Summer League. Plus, How Many Robs Could Take Wemby? | Group Chat

Hello and welcome to Group Chat, I am Justin Verrier and joining me, Rob Mahoney, Jay Kyle, man, Kyle, no black eyes, so I assume no fights while you were in Vegas. Now, all my trash talking about BAM luckily was on an in-in encrypted social media service, so none of it got out luckily. But yeah. Yeah, no trash talking publicly here. We would never say a negative thing about any player. We keep it to signal as God intended, keep it amongst ourselves, although Justin I have to say maybe it's not a coincidence that just or the Kyle does not have a black eye. Also you were not in Vegas, so I mean who was the feud really going to be with to begin with? No, I wouldn't just throw punches, I would just give them stone cold stunner, you know, one to the chest, drop them down, just a 360 maybe, have either you ever been in a fight like for real. Absolutely not. I got Kyle, come on. I got punched once in sixth grade by Tim Barlow, didn't have a chance to throw back. Can I ask you an honest question? Yeah. Did you deserve it? Probably. Okay. It was it was over like a piece of paper, like a paper dropped to the ground, it was someone's and I was like, you should pick that up, you know, fighting for what's right in the world as I typically am these days still. He didn't take kindly to it and then, pow, right in the kissing. I, uh, well, you have a brother, Rob, I was just going to, those don't really count though on the ledger. Yeah. Right. Yeah. I was, I've been punched a couple times. Uh, I was always kind of skating in that realm like the mouth was always ahead of the physical, like the ability to fight. Obviously, I was a big, I was a big trash talker in practice. And I went through a phase of saying the person's name. If I made a three over them, I would say their name, like it was pretty obnoxious and I would do it to the upper class man. And I remember I did it and I said, Ryan, I was like, it's going to take more than that. And he goes, motherfucker, what did you say? There was a holding back and I was like, he would have killed me. But you said stone called stunner. And that's what triggered this for me is because I was playing to tackle football outside. And I think I was like a freshman in high school. And there was this dude, I just didn't, I'm not, I was in a fighter, but it escalated. And I didn't know what to do like where it was like he was coming at me and I ran and basically just like took him down and my friend said, you did a stone called stunner on him. That was amazing. And I was like, Oh, I didn't even know not a fighter. So shockingly, this isn't a fighting pie. I know. Who knew? People will be truly stunned to hear it. Great. Great. Great stuff. Uh, I'm surprised that the stunner even worked in real life because I'm just like the mechanics of it. It's literally you're just like dropping down, hoping that the chin meets the, the crook of the elbow and somehow that sort of blow like does something to you like the mechanics of actual wrestling. Don't make sense to me. So I'm surprised that it got off in real life. Yeah. We gotta be glad that Ben isn't on this recording because he would be interjecting with fact checks left and right. I mean, we're clearly dragging Steve Austin's name through the mud, but here we are. Yeah. All right. Well, why don't we get to the task at hand? We'll get to some mailbag questions later on. Thanks for sending those into ringer group chat at gmo.com. You can still send them in and just check it on Rob throughout the course of the summer. You know, at least ask if he ever gets out of the back room that he's stuck in right now. This liminal space. You don't even want to see the half-form desk that I'm currently sitting at, but, you know, ends like needs must really. We're in the offseason. These are desperate times. We got to record anywhere and everywhere we can. All right. So let's talk about first and foremost, some of this hot summer league action Kyle, you were just there. You were just there. You said it. It doesn't seem like what was going on on the on the concourse, what was up at the Venetian, like where you're where you're running the tables at nights. What's what was the scene like? I'm I'm very much a people watcher person. So that's always an element. I like to kind of keep track of the most pathetic thing that I see when I'm in Vegas. And that's just from the, you know, out away from the NBA thing, you know, setting, you know, you'll see, you know, a parent with a toddler passed out across their lap at like 3am while they're at the slots. And I'm like, hmm, interesting, interesting core memories being made here. So there's that side of it. Is that a social video? Like Kyle seeks out misery at Vegas. You kind of did turn that into content at old Vegas. Where on the free month was that last year, the year before I can't even remember, but there's some stuff happening out there. Lord, I need to retweet that tracking shot. I did what a single tracking shot where we went from the, you know, and it's just so surreal old Vegas. Do you ever go down there? I know Rob does. We went down together. It was like the zip lines are coming down and it's like 2am and there's a huge video board. There's a cover band. I think in the one video, I took they were, they were covering all star by smash mouth. And then there was this group of people dancing with a huge Trump flag and like, they're not in like, they're in thongs and you're just like, I don't, I don't really know what's going on right now. The basketball side of it, though, you meant you said the word hot, funnily. It was incredibly hot, like oven, hot fart, oppressive. But in general, man, I mean, just a lot of excitement about the top picks and we can get into that. Those dudes showed out, I mean, there were, there were some turds among the first round players, but a lot of excitement about the young people and I don't feel like the crowd was as big this year, you know, because it was kind of a couple of years there when we were all that together, it went all the way up to the upper deck and it wasn't, it definitely wasn't as crowd. I don't know if that's a function of we didn't have like a win be there or the Lakers weren't as good or. Ronnie. Yeah. Yeah. But the people who were there were enthused. Yeah. It's a little surprising because I feel like it's a summer league right of passage for some highly touted pick to go in and absolutely just get demolished, put up crazy awful shooting numbers, like really underwhelm. And for all of the top guys to show up in the way that they have this feels atypical. It feels exciting. Seeing them match up against each other so early in the bracket, obviously most of them are not going to play the entire summer league schedule to begin with, but it's been riveting seeing these guys go head to head and what they've been able to do even in chaotic wild summer league play. Yeah. That's a good place to start here because all of the top four guys, there's been something to wash for them. I think all of them have had pretty significant moments. I think Caleb Wilson, unfortunately, had more of a come down after his meteoric first star. We had like the most points in a summer league debut ever. So he had to come down at a certain point. But like this top four feels as significant as I think it was bill two Kyle. And I think the question that was kicking around in my brain, I'm curious. What you think here is like, so last year's top four, obviously incredible, where you had flag, you had Dylan Harper, Khan and VJ is like, are we going to have a thing now for years where it's like, which top four is actually going to be better? And like, do we think that this years can rival last year's even I think mixing them together and ranking them is going to be something that's going to reoccur because a, because Cooper is in technically in the age group with the top four from this year because he reclassified. Like they had been together all the way. So I heard people sort of mixing and I'm sure we'll do that more as we talk about young quarters and young players going forward. I did want to clarify the top four. Yes. Very good. If you go down into, you know, Keaton Wogler and Acuff had some bumpy moments with his efficiency. Wogler struggled quite a bit in the first game. I was thinking back to last year, though. I mean, it's funny to think where we ended up and it speaks to reading into summer league too much is that, like, Condon really set the world on fire at the start last summer. Harper was good. If I'm trying to jog my own memory here, but he didn't do anything that would have made us think, like, Oh, you know, this is a guy who's going to be a major factor in the finals. You know, so you do read into it, you know, at your own peril, I think, read into it too much. Yeah. Well, much like Las Vegas itself, this is not real life. This is not the NBA. This is not even really professional basketball. A bunch of guys who just met and I would say in terms of what you take away from summer league, usually it's smaller things. It's less like the big stat line and more. How did you feel about the way this guy creates space? How did you feel about the way this guy was dealing or not dealing with physicality? It's like, it's the little elements that might translate to the NBA because if we over index on this stuff, we're just going to drive ourselves crazy. That would be a ridiculous thing to do, but there are some takeaways. The rule of summer league is if a player performs poorly, it does not matter whatsoever. How dare you even mention it? This is stricken from the record. If they play even remotely well, it's the most incredible thing. This is going to carry on for decades into the future. Please, NBA executive who picked them. Please tell me everything about this and things to come. See, we say all this and then I did watch that first Kayla Wilson debut and I saw God. There are just times where you're swept up in it and in the momentum and in the talent and especially someone like Kayla Wilson, where the pops are just electric and there's just neon signs all over his game pointing to that, like, this could be such a clear star. That's a really tantalizing thing to try to put in context and to try to qualify and to try to be responsible about, and frankly, I don't even want to be too responsible about it. I just want to be excited about particularly these top four guys who all look to varying degrees just so ready for NBA basketball in all of its various facets. I really just can't wait to see them on the big stage. I had a pretty funny moment during the first half of that Bulls game, the one where Kayla went off and I guess it was against it was against boozer and the Grizzlies and I was texting with Tate and some of the people about like because Tate's a North Carolina guy, well documented and I was just saying, you know, boozer has been the most mature, like fully well rounded rookie here in my opinion and then Kayla wasn't having a great first half because a lot of that happened in the second half and I had to get up and go to the other gym and the moment I left the gym he that goes off so I was T Tate Tate had a nice like how you like me now energy after that one because Kayla went went wild I was curious so Rob I mean you're you're getting to watch this guy in game action for the first time specific was there anything specific about what what made you see God like what jumped out to you about him. Yeah, I think the player that I was led to believe Kayla Wilson was was like yeah you will see these athletic pops you'll see some of the stuff like the chase down blocks you'll see some play finishing more than play creating that he's going to be a part of an offense but not necessarily someone who can drive it or create on this level and then I tune in for that debut and he's hitting like step back threes off the dribble something I straight up didn't know he could do he might in in addition to that debut which might be like the single best performance of anybody at some relief so far also have the single best play of anyone at some relief so far when he dunked on who was it the Utah Center Jonas and I do is that how you pronounce his name A do yeah do like win up and just cocked it back on him after breaking some people down off the dribble and it's like these are all at least from my reading from my understanding the supposed weaknesses of his game is like can he break people down will he be a go to score what is his three point shooting future. And he just lit up all those things right out of the gate in a way that to me was really exciting to watch. Yeah, I'm curious kind of what you think about the shooting and how that's going to like carry on into the NBA because obviously he didn't take many of him he was saying that like he wasn't basically allowed to he had the long time off because of his injury because of all the pre draft workout stuff where guys of that level like how much are they actually working out and if you're going to work out for a team like is it really just more calisthenics getting up and down the court in order for them to meet you and do some of these other things I'm curious about that. But I don't know if you guys caught the second game he played last night against the jazz which was a little bit more muted. Because Darren Peterson didn't play and it seemed like he almost like kind of deflated as a result of that he was coasting a lot of it the shots weren't falling down. But there was a moment late in the game where the game was basically just done it was a very low scoring affair was honestly kind of brutal to watch. But they checked him back in when he didn't have to go back in and he had that incredible dunk where he did like the throw it down like you actually like literally throw it into the rim and then he went on the other side and got his fifth block. And like to me that was kind of the cable Wilson experience like when the shot isn't falling and we'll see if it happens in a translate. But like that sort of raw energy athleticism defensive potential at like just rim at the rim like just like viciousness. I thought like what's a nice sign because when things aren't going well he still has that to be back up. Yeah the shooting thing. Well I wanted to comment on the dunk there's the guy that he crossed over Matthew Cleveland. I'm not going to say that he is exactly in the OG on a no B category of on ball defenders. If you were if you were looking to get a dunk highlight that'd be the first person you want on you but that I mean yeah that was insanely impressive I think all those things are going to come along slowly you know him him attacking and transition off the dribble was pretty chaotic we saw those we saw the pain points we saw the seams I think in some spots. I think in particular I'm a little more in the middle because I wonder I wondered if this was like a Henry bomb gardener in that his name from rookie the year the where he breaks his arm. I think row and guard where he can suddenly because they keep his name wrong. Throughout the movie that's a classic that's a classic it is great. I don't think he bought loving that one flew over my head when I was a kid anyway. No I was wondering if he breaks his hand and then he just becomes a 45% three point shooter. He was really hunting it and I would say all the top guys were and that's pretty typical of the rookies I mean in the first game like AJ and Darren both were really forcing it trying to get to their stuff and it was ugly at times but for Caleb you know as much as he was like allowed or not allowed to shoot three's I don't know but if you watched him. His set shot from the mid range it was like you could kind of you could see and buy in and he was good from the line it was like eventually I think it's eventually he could get there and I was like I'm probably somewhere in the middle where I'm like he's probably going to be like a mid 30s shooter if that's the most likely good outcome I think. But the thing you mentioned him just defensively he gets to his ceiling vertically quicker than a lot of players do and he's so explosive and long that those were the things that really impressed me is like once he gets his defensive technique like more polish he just. Hales players around the room that that stuff was the most that chased down block that he had after the behind the back turn over I don't know if you all saw that yeah he I would love to see his time to max bird I bet it's among the highest in this class it's it's like breathtaking. It's pretty crazy what he's already capable of and it's not just meeting people at the rim defensively but you can tell he's going to be an incredible switch defender he is not step perfect right now he's a little all over the place in like the way he moves in his footwork. But his instincts in his length he just closes every gap so quickly and so that combination of a big who could be this kind of defender at the rim who could be this kind of defender in space or a forward we should say I don't know where he's going to slot in as approach us yet. And then regardless of what his percentages that being as a three point shooter I think the smoothness of his release and how he taps into it he's going to be able to get into more three point opportunities then the average forward or the average big might be able to like it seems like mechanically the kind of shot that could really be pretty accessible for him. I thought it was really funny especially in that first game the contrast between how he was affecting the game versus how can Booser was if you were to watch a highlight package is like Caleb Wilson is he the next car net cross with Shaq cross with somebody else it's just like oh my god and then can Booser just like simple put back like burrowing down in order to get a rebound or like tracking the ball in a Kevin love ask way in order to put himself into position to grab the rebound is just like slow methodical effective. And what's crazy I didn't realize this that cam is only 19 right now actually has the same birthday but as a year younger than Caleb Wilson that's yeah. He's huge for an 18 year old like that's another thing that I often remark upon it summer league it's like when these guys who are physical marvels in the college ranks like how do I look at the summer leagues situation because there's like more pros there guys from like trying to make Yugoslavian leagues are still kind of floating around and whatnot like he looks as big as average. Yeah he just had there was an efficiency about like the knowing where to be what to do he he wasn't there just are the gaps of polish like Caleb are cam has different challenges ahead of him I think and if he wants to get into sort of the star superstar territory but his baseline of just knowing where to be in when it was quieter it's not always as flashy he's not capable of going to the places that Caleb is but. And there's a lot of stuff out there about like Caleb has had a journey of sort of. Acclimating himself to what it takes to be a pro at that level and how to win and things like that and he's been pretty open about that but I also think that's one of the charming things about Caleb is he's a bright kid he's very curious he's eager to get better so sometimes we'll come to the league and see the sloppiness of those things with like. Especially when they're great athletes I mean Anthony Edwards is a great example of this is just when he would come in he was just openly sort of ignorant and flippant about pro basketball and some of you were turned off by that but what you saw is like that motor and that curiosity can really bridge some gaps between due to come in maybe they're a little bit ahead and then you see them make up ground really quickly like and just started to kind of learn how to be a pro. Cam cam has been around process whole life he's always going to have his his floor in his baseline is just really high something that really struck me to among the playmakers. That were in this event you know like Kingston flimmings we can maybe get to him I don't know how much you all saw him even Darren Peterson. Guys that can make the reads and I had a lot of conversations with scouts and draft people about this this weekend guy there's a difference between guys who can make the reads that and then throw like a scoreable ball like cam. Throw is a really nice on time on target ball and it's like if you can make the reads but you can't do the latter thing it's kind of negates itself right I think cam was ahead on that front to just a great makes the reads throws really shootable scoreable balls. I think he's been if not the certainly one of the most impressive passers that I've seen of anyone at summer league and it is that it's like some of the lobs he's thrown to his teammates the leading passes that are right there in the strike zone like they are perfectly executed in the way that you kind of expect of someone of his polish but it's super impressive for someone of his age nonetheless. I just I think his floor is higher every single time I see him it's just he can do so much with so much savvy we saw him run like inverted pick and roll in some of these games in a way that's like okay I guess that's just like an NBA weapon he's going to have in his back pocket on top of who can be as a screen and role player who he can be as a finish around the basket like I just think the way he positions himself offensively is going to give him so many ways to tap into offense and he's not going to necessarily rack up up, even the assist numbers that, yeah, like guys like Kingston are or the Mavs guards are like, there are more impressive raw totals out there in Vegas. But on a play for play basis, I'm just like in awe of his ability to read and deliver with the kind of precision you're talking about Kyle. Yeah. The high floor definitely seems to be the case. Like, I can't imagine he's ever going to flame out. The question is, like, does Caleb just have the sort of superstar pop that Kim doesn't because there were times, especially when he was running in transition. And I'm like, sky wearing snow boots, like, why is he even not going as fast as you think? But he is big, obviously knows how to use it. And just the fluidity and the efficiency of movement at that size is crazy. Like he has that one play. I think it's from the last game where he's like, basically, Euro hop stepping. And it's just like, it's just so fluid. And the way that he was like navigating bodies is just like, I think that stuff is going to make him have an impact, like as soon as he gets to the league, the high end stuff we'll see, but like, that guy's just dialed in in a way that you don't see rookies that alone 18 year olds. In the tradeoff for the snow boots movement sometimes is that you're getting an 18 year old who's big boying people out there with pure positioning more so than just like being bigger and stronger. He is big. He is strong. He clearly is really physical. But I just think that's one area where I'm not really worried about his acclimation to NBA size and NBA physicality. There are always challenges with it, but that it's not coming from a place of just like, I am jacked in a way that my opponents are not, but I know how to get my pivot inside jurors. I know how to clearly box you out of this play. Not just on the boards, but to kind of like freeze you out in rotation to help my teammates. He's just like a little thing, King already. And to do that in summer league where everything is just like basically which guard can get to their stuff the fastest and the least inefficiently, I salute any big who is actually good out there. He was just been really good to quote the guy that's what I think is on that, please don't spread the good word. One thing that I have noticed though, I think he has so many outs, I think for his trajectory like outcomes, just what could happen for him. And that floor gives him a wide array of options. If he doesn't become a superstar like he could he could be just an elite role player and that would be enough like he could be on winning teams, I think for the rest of his playing days, I did notice getting in the lane, I think he's going to have to develop some like single coverage one on one bag because I did notice moments where he would have a smaller guy on him and this happened in the maps game a little bit to where it's just he does have some of that physical bully ball vocabulary as a score where it's like he's going to have to find some more ways I think to produce his own. I think if he really wants to be a star level player, but it's just like would you put that past in mind? I absolutely would not. Yeah. Let's talk about AJ Debonza. The number one guy speaking of huge players like he was being guarded by Nick Clifford who's like a pretty credible like two three in the league six six, Debonza just looked huge in comparison to him, which is something that like I guess I knew, but and that's something that's certainly the wizards knew in drafting him over guy like Darren P is going to talk about a little bit later, but like just seeing what he's able to do the fluidity. And there was something on the broadcast where he was talking about how like Darren Peters and I guess as a Kobe guy and he's more of a team at guy. And I could definitely see it in the way that he processes things. I think team acts a little bit more like high feel more slinky sort of guy, whereas Debonza plays with more raw power and aggression. And so seeing that approach with married with his sort of physicality is really interesting. But like you can see it where he's like trying to get to his mid range pull up. He's trying to like work at his own pace in order to get to his spots. And so I would say so far so good for him. I don't know what you thought and perhaps in the initial duel with Peterson. I think the sort of intrinsic primary template that they both are built from is way more Kobe to me. In terms of the, I made this in a, I made this point in a video that I did recently. A little walk and talk where I was talking about Peterson. The isolation is the center of what they do is the core of what they do. And T Mac, it was a very underrated pass, or I've said that so many times that I feel like I just defend him historically a lot for that reason. He just got off the ball really quickly in a way that I don't know that it doesn't come as naturally to Peterson or Debonza. So I don't, he may think that of himself. I hope he, and if he aspires to that, that will be a good outcome for him if he wants to play like T Mac. But he strikes me his way more like I'm going to knock, I'm going to knock on this door of like trying to get to my mid range or bully my way into the paint and I'll pass it if that's not there. He's, they're not getting off it quickly. So that's kind of, that's my first kind of, you know, just thought from that he, he was ramming his way to the rim in a way where he absolutely looked like a veteran. You mentioned Nick Clifford on him, which is funny is like they're a year apart in draft class and Nick Clifford is still like five years older than him because he came in older. But that was my first thing. It's just his physicality. He looks bigger and stronger. He didn't settle for jumpers a ton. He did some, but I was really impressed with how he got to the basket. Yeah. I mean, Nick Clifford as a test is probably one of the best defensive like challenges at Summer League for a player like AJ Debonza. He looked really good. He looked really confident. I think he's checking all the boxes to me of a guy who is like a big, Linky ball handler attacker, right? Like someone who is going downhill, who is looking to get to his stuff, who's maybe, yeah, a little less point forward team act and a little more like Orlando Magic 30 a game team act sometimes. Like you can tell kind of which side is being channeled there of the coin. The problem for me is like all the other stuff, like the stuff he might be asked to do this year as a Washington wizard, like maybe hit like a single three is, is a little bit of a work in progress. And so who he is as a ball, dumb, potentially ball dominant star down the line and who he's asked to be out of the gate during these like first developmental years in the NBA, they could be wildly different things. And that's okay. I'm eager to see how his game sort of balances out to potentially be both of those for for right now. Like he's making all the really hard stuff look pretty easy. And that to me is enough to kind of separate him as a prospect from a lot of people. Well, I think that's a good kind of way to organize this conversation too, because he has been so ball dominant. And obviously guys go to summer league, they're, they're playing different roles and they're going to play in the NBA and a lot of these guys just get fed possessions just to see what they could do. Or for instance, like guys like Tray Johnson, who's like not going to have beyond the ball as much as special with Tray Young, they're like, they'll play through him more than they would. Will Riley. They basically weren't even using their point card. He was out there. But it was like a lot of going through AJ a lot of going through Will Riley, especially in that second game. And I'm curious, Kyle, what you think because so much of AJ's life has been on the ball. And you'd assume he'd do some of that at the next level, but you just paid Tray Young pretty handsomely. And when you watch the bonsai, you, you watch his handle, it seems still pretty loosey goosey for someone who has the ball. So often I do wonder if that sort of like brush physicality, like maybe that should be at the top of his like things to do and like prioritize in your one as a rookie, because if anything, he has someone whose job should be to feed him easier buckets rather than him kind of just ram his head into the wall over and over again for this first year. Yeah, the handle's got to improve, but I think that's something that's just universally true for guys who are on his path. He did have some moments though where he had one play in their last game. I guess it was against the Kings where he, you know, did a wide hang cross that was in his left hand. And he kind of did like a sell his jumper in an out thing. I mean, it's the one where you're going up like you're going to go into your pick up and he in and outed with his left hand and drove to the basket. And I was like, woo, that was, that was something for a six nine guy, that's, that's pretty nasty at his age. This team, this wizard's team, though, your ride is going to be pretty fascinating because when they resigned tray, I was just like the tray, AJ, I know, you know, I know trays in the tunnel, dispersing wisdom and stuff about how he'll bring his rooks. And I'm like, I just, you're, you're going to be balancing this thing of, I want AJ kind of taking reps through, I've been calling them atrophy reps. Just where you're, you're just pushing what you can do to the limit and tiring that muscle so that it'll grow. And it's like, how much room is there going to be for that? Um, but then on the other hand, I'm kind of like, you know, he was so primary BYU, some of that was because of injuries, like their second best player went down or third best whatever it was. And, uh, I've seen him in the USA games like for, for the FIFA, or feet, FIFA, FIFA on the brain, FIFA teams, like, um, play off ball a little bit more, play in, play in that supportive role. So he's capable of it, but balancing that with all the, with all the guys that they have on that roster, I'm seeing how trays going to have to be willing to not be so sticky on the ball. It seems like to me because Kaishan and even Will Riley, I thought, look, fucking awesome at times during some really, it's like, they're going to have to really move the ball around. Yeah. Yeah. They have a lot of prospects worth investing in and worth seeing kind of like how far they could push that atrophy rate that you mentioned, Kyle, I think tray is capable of being that sort of like more game manager, more activate everyone around him guard. It's just difficult when you're coming off of like a trade that was a ding to your reputation, like sitting out the part of the season when you probably didn't want to like, tray is going to want to come into the season with a lot to prove. He certainly heard a lot about his contract that he just signed from guys like us. But this is the problem with a deal like that is like you give over $200 million to a guard. It's going to be hard at any point over the life of that deal to one trade tray young. If you ever decide you need to do that or even to deemphasize him when the time comes to promote a J or anyone else on that roster. to give them more opportunity. It's just always so much easier said than done to say, hey, $55 million star point guard, we want you to do a little bit less so that we can get this young guy doing more. I worry about that part of it and they're just being enough oxygen for all of these guys to become the best versions of themselves. But the best version of AJ DeBonza looks fucking incredible just based on these early snapshots of even some really play. Yeah. I guess the question is, is the appeal of AJ and why you drafted him one in order to empower him with the ball like Kyle, like is like him being such a big ball handler, being able to do that. The main selling point or would you rather long term have him playing off of tray, being able to create off of a pass like the defense is rotating and then he's getting downhill, like which version of AJ I think would be more ideal, at least from the job. It's going to have to be a little bit of both. Honestly, I was just thinking this might be a little bit akin to what Jason Tatum came into you in the league when he was a rookie where it was like this is a guy who his primary time will come and you work on the catch and shoot, you work and sort of the moving, you know, settings, setting screens and all of those things are going to be an asset to him as he gets older because the worst version of AJ I think is going to be just eat until his belly is big and full and like the team is the team might hit a pretty good efficiency but you're lowering the ceiling of the team. I think if you try to live like that exclusively and they have even too much, their guys that are just on rookie deals. I mean, if you just sit trade to the side, like I think that they have a lot of talent that if they can figure out how to balance the appetites of those guys, tray Johnson just makes me like, you knew he was going to get shots up. I was watching that game. I was just like, Trey's like, it's, it's Trey Johnson time every time he touched it. But that's going to be, I wonder if they can kind of work him along at that pace and AJ's ball dominant insistence or his reputation for that makes you think that maybe he would be unhappy. I still do wonder about it. But if they can bring him convince him to come along slowly like in the way that Tatum did with those successful boss and teams early on, I think it could be and it could be invaluable to him long term. I love that idea too. I mean, it's, it's a very different ask for a team that was in the South exposition to compete versus one that's in Washington's position where they're still trying to prove who they are at any level. But if he can get some of the Tatum like supplementary skills together during this time of playing off of Trey, of playing off of some of his teammates who have been in the year or two, like Jason Tatum turned into one of the most versatile four defenders that we have in the NBA. And you, you can see flashes from AJ defensive like, oh my god, like if he, if he fully learns how to be responsible with all of his physical gifts on defense, he could be a total terror on that end of the court. And if these couple of years are an on ramp to that kind of two way player, that could be a huge boon for the Wizards long term. Yeah. On the flip side of that Darren Peterson, I know he didn't have a particularly good debut in Vegas. But what's funny is like I've watched, I think all of his games at this point, I went back and watched the highlights from when he was at Utah and I just like trying to remember like the peak of it because the good old days were really good just a variety of ways that this guy was scoring. I was just like, this is exactly what I saw when we talked about him earlier in the season when he was still just like the few games he was playing early in the season where it's just like the variety of ways he can score and just like how much he instantly just fits the type of player that would work in the league. I'm just like, oh my god, just like it was just like the breath of fresh air you needed to clean out some of the noise that had been happening around him going into the draft. Here's guy where you come out overall because the turnovers were high against the Wizards played better and that's in the next game in Vegas, probably he's getting shut down at this point. But like in terms of Peterson, like what is like the big old takeaway from this entire body of work? The big old takeaway. What was the big old, the big old thing? What did you say off air? I forget. I can't even remember. We're too far in the off airweeds now. I had to I mean, I was on a plane watching the first game on and just just planes, man, I'm just I'm just my knees just at this point. It's getting tougher and tougher anyway. So no screw call the airline industry. I got a screwed up left knee. It annoys me to be on a plane for a while anyway. So anyway, $50 for economy comfort. What are we doing, man? Give me some more comfort. I get more irritated with people who are just on their phones, like on speaker phone in public places. That was really driving me nuts, man. There was a lady at a restaurant behind me, like I have sitting at the Brett, like getting eating breakfast at the the breakfast bar and she was like on a speaker phone conversation behind like a lot of people. And I was just like, what is wrong with you? Straight to Jail. Straight to jail. Get out of here. Straight to jail. I mean, where are we on the like great culture war of our time? Which is the can you recline your seat on the airplane debate? Or how are you guys feeling about that? It's unacceptable. I know some people are like, it's me. It's me. It's me. Right. Just be a good human. And don't do it. Nope. You can't do it. It shouldn't be an option. What are we doing as a society? It never balances out. Because when I say this to people, they're always like, oh, if you recline like the, oh, balance, no. The proportions do not work out. Okay. It doesn't work out. I agree with you. I actually think that over six feet tall, you're horribly inconvenienced by it. Just don't do it. Yeah. It's a hate crime if the person behind you is tall. So please act responsibly. We live in a society. I think this, the courtesy wave are really where, like we've learned where society is failing us. Like the fact that you were atrophying, like you got it. You let someone in the lane, they don't give a hand. Oh. They should be executed. Interesting. Yeah. Interesting how American that is. Because when we were in Sweden, I noticed that the cars were so deferential to the pedestrian there was none of this like courtesy wave stuff. I, I merged in the other night and there was a dude on a motorcycle who was like listening to Nelly really like, you ever see those people who were like listening to music on their motorcycle? Yeah. Like louder than any car. He lets me in and I like didn't, I didn't wave. I didn't wait. I thought it was just, he wasn't moving. He let the app in the, sorry, he let the, and when I put, and if people have kids in the car, I'm going to say something, so cover their ears here must be, he, when I cross the street, he very loudly next to this patio restaurant where a bunch of people were sitting and he was probably being a little performative, but he goes, you're a welcome motherfucker. Yeah. He should. That's the appropriate response. I yell like we're trying to build a society, you know, you yell, we're trying to build a society. It's a little to my self. Yeah. The message is good. It's fine. It's just like, don't worry about lines and like order or anything like that. Just go ahead and cut. It's fine. Yeah. I could see you being aggrieved about that. It's just like, you shouldn't get, you don't need a sticker for the thing that you should just do. Like, I'm not, get over your support, man. If you don't need the sticker, then we all need to do it, and you didn't even do it, Kyle. So what are you talking about? Oh, you're, you're both against me. Okay. I see. All right. I, I, I wave usually, but it's just, I don't know. I just need to hide over there. Yeah. Kyle's not putting a shopping cart back at the grocery store. Now I do that, I do that, I pick up my dog's poop, I put the shopping, you know, I do, I do all those basic things, Darren Peterson anyway. Yeah. No, I mean, I was watching that on the plane. And I mean, the wizards clearly came out with an agenda and they had the 10 fouls. It was like, Jameer Watkins was like, I'm going to foul you every possession of the court. Something important to keep in mind, too, was some of the league is that like, not all these teams are bringing like equal, some of these teams are weighted, bringing their young guys like Cedric Coward is out there with the Grizzlies and stuff and you're like, what's going on here? Like, there are just more like the OKC thunders team was woefully inept. Like, it was not partly Mara's fault, but the, the jazz just didn't bring the same. They had to sign Orlando Robinson just so that they would have like a competent basketball team, you know. So a lot, a lot of tilted towards Peterson and it was messy with the turnovers and things like that. And he's going to have to work on some of his passing like the reads are there. But he just has so much polish to the way, like, when he gets to his mid range, like, he just take the technique of how he gets to his spots in his pace with the ball. I thought it was really impressive. He didn't shoot it like outstandingly, but I think once you see him with all of the pieces that the jazz have, it's going to look pretty good. I'm not saying it's going to be perfect, but he didn't show me anything that made me feel like concerned at all. I felt pretty good. The threat of his shot just already opens up so much, even when he's not hitting it at some crazy rate that I would be surprised if he does not turn into one of the most flexible scores in the league. Like he just gets into the in between stuff so easily and he's so comfortable there, which is honestly not something you can say for a lot of prospects who come into the league, like those, the floater zone, the kind of mid range pull up stuff. It's been deemphasized at so many developmental levels. And Darren Peterson feels just locked in on those aspects of his particular game. And so he makes a lot more sense to me as like a pure score than as any kind of playmaker. I think the ability to play out of those advantages will manifest, will come with time. But he strikes me as the kind of star who, even when he's at his absolute best, is going to be like three and a half to four assists a game and not necessarily like the seven six seven assists per game. And that's, that's going to be okay if he turns into the kind of score he seems to be projecting as well. Well, I think that's interesting because everything I was thinking about was how that maps on to a back court with counted George there, because I think you would say a lot of those same things about him. And so in concert, perhaps it works, but it almost forces these guys who seem to be score first in their approach and everything else kind of trickles down from there to almost be both well rounded enough that they're almost like stars in their own right. It's like you need to be the type of go-to score who could put up 20 to 30 a game But also get everyone else involved and like if you do enough of that like those things can meld together And so it seems like a tricky proposition Kyle But at the same time like both of these guys are also pretty good at it I can see both of those guys getting close to that level So maybe that's it They're just so talented that they can figure this out But it is a pretty unique setup in a league where like these two things don't typically go together Yeah, well, you got me thinking about you're absolutely right I mean both of those guys are scoring tilted guards And I had this thought watching him and I put I put also put that in that the video where I was talking about the jazz where It it occurred to me that if Peterson ever Got in his mind that he wanted to become a high movement kind of pitch and catch shooter Where he is playing with a big that can pass the ball whether or not that's gonna be I mean What's interesting is Nirkic is on this team and this back court is a little reminiscent of Of the Dame CJ archetype honestly if he ever commit He will be a mega pain in the ass to guard if he ever gets in his mind that like I he doesn't that he doesn't have to be a Helio pound the ball hard and type of guy because he's not as talented as hard as a passer He's a more he's just as talented a score I think But I think it if playing with Nirkic. I think it's gonna be a pretty funny I'll be curious to ask Nirkic about it if anybody does in the fall of like He's he's doing this almost time-light and reset where he's playing with a younger virgin of those dudes that he elevated so much Yeah, I would love to see him become that kind of player at least in spots It doesn't have to be all the time. I think so much of Darren Peterson's career is gonna come down to how he balances this stuff because he Like right now he's already showing he can capitalize on so much of the easy stuff that just comes with being a good talented skilled player who is in a functional or even semi-functional offense like he's just gonna get Free points by virtue of his talent in some of those situations and he's also showing that he can convert some of the hard stuff That you really can only rely on stars to do and if those things are always or consistently true It's gonna be a really high-level player Which way he tilts is probably gonna decide whether he ends up being like a year-to-year superstar or someone who's just kind of like on the fringes Really productive, but you always wonder what could be if he kind of nailed everything down just so All right, I want to talk about some of these other guys at summer league, but why don't we take a quick break first? All right summer league outside of the top four Kyle what are the other guys you want to talk about here? Who caught your eye? I think Kingston Fleming's was the best guard at the event that I saw I will I will do a quick shot. I saw I saw LeBaron Phylon who long time LeBaron Phylon guy on record I got to see him up close like I sat pretty close behind the bench and just saw his and it's amazing Would you pick up on if you're that close like seeing just their presence and how they talk and how they affect their teammates and Phylon was Insanely impressive on that front just he had a real confidence like we got this I got this Follow me kind of energy that was really really impressive and he steady didn't stabilize them and and they had a close win I forget who they were playing against but Well kind of someone for someone on on the phylon front before we move on who was not like privy to the step-by-step process that led to him becoming a Sixer like what the fuck happened like how did how did he end up falling this much? I don't know man I know I know that they had other plans in the draft the sixers did like in terms of what they were going to go after and He was there and then when you consider the other guards that they already have I think it speaks to how good he is that they were like yeah, we got it. We got to take this dude I know I know internally he had you know a lot of like huge fans with them So and I know you know obviously he was taken so that's the case but He when he was there and he was available and I said this on a six or show not long ago is that they were gonna take him last year I know that so if he was available later in the first round so Sure, they were jumping for joy, but talking about Kingston they they both were really impressive But I just thought Kingston flimmings like ball screen acumen and this like he made some passes that were just absurd and Just very steady, you know I know people were really talking a lot about that that clip that came out of him talking to his teammates and sort of just Walking them through reads and things like that. That's the type of duty is and you know coming out of this event No, I it was one of those where I'm like honestly wonder if I had him high enough. I circle back and moved him up But I just think he's so impressive man. I think he could end up being the best guard in this class Justin have you seen this clip of like the Mike dub Kingston Fleming summer league action. I haven't so he's just telling them where to go It's just him being like a 33 year-old point guard in a, you know, what 20 year-old's body or however old he is is like The precision the clarity the calmness of just like who he is as a communicator. I am I'm radicalized to the extent that I've been needed to be I've been out here, you know in my very limited draft exposure being very impressed with Kingston flimmings on multiple podcasts now But I've seen everything I need to see frankly. I'm I'm on board fully It's kind of like when we have phone calls and I'm just like oh, yeah, you got to you got to go do this and that and yes And Rob and I come away so inspired we're ready to run through a wall for you and for group chat Yeah, you're our case in flimmings. There's really no doubt Flimmings had a play where I think it was like a going left pick and roll where they were hedging and the defense just kind of He was feeling them out and he like intent he had a very purposeful dribble that he took To see what the man I'm turning off his weaker strong side, but it was a guy in the corner because the ball ended up in the right corner And he was kind of he was purposefully dribbling to sort of see where the the secondary help would would move and he was like go He threw the ball across his body almost like Patrick Mahomes to the to the opposite corner And I was just like oh, I was like late like it was he was really really impressive as a manipulative kind of passer Man, I think he's gonna help the hawks like immediately. I mean he he might start for them. I it's he he really blew me away Well, that's it. Yeah, well, I was gonna say that's a really interesting contrast to what happened with a cuff who I the defensive clips have been Making the rounds here and like I guess you could expect that to a certain degree I don't know if I'm actually like plugging into some really basketball for like the defensive acumen of most players But the fact that he hasn't been notable like notable offensively hasn't been particularly sharp All the things you'd expect to counterbalance some of those issues like just haven't been there like some lazy passes Just like what got blocked. I think by debonsa trying to get us into his step back And almost seemed like surprised by the length and like it was a little bit more mix than I'd expect for someone who was so Mercurial as like an offensive guy in college. Yeah, talk about a cuff specifically. Yes. Yeah I wasn't terribly surprised honestly just because It's it's interesting because having conversations with people coming out of this past year when he was at Arkansas You know, I made this point to that you know He was on a team that really needed him to play a certain way And the more I thought about it and the more I was like watching him in summer league I was just like it might have been a little bit of both. It was like we kept excusing that and saying you know I think he is just insistent on playing a certain way. He likes to have the ball in his hands a whole lot I thought he got to spots. It's just some of that stuff will even out like No one will go for your own shot No one went to sort of be the game manager like the way that you know, Fleming's was ahead of him in that sense I think LeBaron was ahead of him in that sense and just knowing what to do and win When to score when to be a playmaker um the defensive stuff was bad But overall overall I think the Kings did a pretty good job have done a pretty good job Just resetting their culture. They're taking kind of small steps, you know, let him go to DeMar de Rosen I'll let people go with that one. There's a lot of Twitter Uh discourse about DeMar de Rosen's credibility as a winner whatever it is um I think Caribbean look good. I'm sure you were happy about that just and I think you know Dylan Cardwell looks good. I think um you know neat Clifford they're making baby steps. I'm not overly worried though about a cuff I guess I think it would be profoundly stupid to pretend that who dare say cuff is in Las Vegas is who he's going to be in his NBA career All of that said even though this is just summer league This competitive environment is Taylor made for players like him to succeed and the fact that he is not even remotely coming close to succeeding I'm I am mildly concerned. I was already mildly concerned I clearly clearly though just into your point about the defense like no one is showing up here Pretending to like oh, I'm gonna lock into this defensive tape The baseline is like can you be not embarrassing? And he's been kind of embarrassing I like how you set that up to you put all the armor on you're like, oh no one can find me in here if I If I'm wearing this breastplate and then you went for it. I appreciated that. You gotta do both shouldn't be worried But I'm worried. Yeah, yeah We'll see anybody else you guys want to talk about here Do we talk about Yaxl? Big old boy shooting the hell out of the ball I mean he some of this might just be the age But like he has a polish that even some of the second and third year guys that some really just straight up do not have like He's going to be as seamless a rookie fit as I think anybody we're going to find and does he give the warriors all the things they didn't have Clearly not does he amplify the way they play and is he gonna fit so easily into that system? I mean, I just I can't see it going any other way He looks so confident confident out there like um I mean, shooting the ball really, really well made a lot of just downhill, you know, draw seeing an advantage, getting the ball where it needed to go with just short roll passes. He just looked realized honestly. I don't honestly wonder if this draft pick was more of a free, a good free agency signing for them because he's going to be just ready to roll defensively look good. Yeah, yeah, so, yeah, so was really, really important or impressive and he wasn't going for it. You know, it just all looked comfortable. It was just playing basketball. It didn't look like he had anything to prove or an agenda that like went off the rails, you know, the way that some other, some other guys did. I think he's just making fewer mistakes than any player I've seen at summer league. And yeah, you would, you would expect that given the quality of player he was in college and where he is in his kind of developmental arc, but impressive nonetheless. Yeah, it is always funny watching clips of him and then look googling his age. It's like, oh, yeah, he's actually just the same age as Paulo Bencaro who's about to start his second contract. So that is notable. Obviously, he came from a lower level and so he's in a different track. But like, yeah, just like, if he's going to shoot even close to this, this, the feel at his size just feels very worthy. And so, like, if he's just going to be a steady rotation player, like they need guys like that who are big, who fit their style. And so like, we'll see about LeBron that's still in the air as we're recording this on Tuesday morning. But like, that's going to help. They need helpful players. That's an important spot for them because if you think back of over there, most successful teams, it's like toolsy, switchable defensive player. Not that he's going to be eggy, but it's, it's that slot. And then you see like auto Porter came in and had some success. People forget about that with their title team. Porter kind of had a resurrection there for a little bit playing with them. He kind of, he does slot into that spot. Um, I was, we should, we'd be remiss. I mean, people are going to be like, oh, he didn't mention Wagler struggled. I think people, we need to, it wasn't perfect for these rookies. I mean, Wagler had some moments where he looked, you know, shots the Bob Emiller look good. Uh, he, I was a huge fan of his, but, um, Wagler needs to get stronger. I think that's a huge thing for him. You can see his process and everything. I don't really worry about, but he didn't look as comfortable with the ball and, and the physicality, I think like we say in the, the foul limit allows guys to play pretty aggressively, but he has some things to work on. I'm not overly concerned. Um, Braden Burries. I don't know if you got to watch him. Dude, he was kicking ass. Braden Burries looked incredible. I'm very impressed, but uh, who he is for the bucks this season is kind of a whole separate question and how he slots in and how they want to use him. But there's, there's a lot to love. I think honestly, on both sides of the ball, more than I expected. Yeah, there's going to be a big like, oh, should Dallas have reached for more as Johnson, because Burries was there and then obviously Yaxel has been kicking ass. We'll see more as didn't play in the second game. I've been tuning in specifically for that. So that was fun. Um, but like Burries looks like everything that he's been built to just like a real gamer type and then obviously Yaxel just seems built for this environment. But we'll see definitely excited about both players and the bucks need as much excitement as they can get at this point. Absolutely. Uh, anybody else? Guys want to highlight? I mean, Mara didn't really cover himself in glory, speaking of former Michigan guys. I mean, just on these first glimpses, again, very early, a big and summer league, all due caveats. I just don't see how this guy that I just watched is going to be a relevant part of the thunder season this year. Like more of a project, more of a long term play. Let's see who he can be kind of developmentally. But on the high end of what he's doing, like the high post passing looks pretty legit. Like he's finding some guys backdoor in ways that are good and constructive. That could be a long term and be a role for him. The movement, the physicality, the way he's using his size. I'm, I'm not super impressed with those things so far. But it's so early. Yeah. The speed looked like it kind of had his head spinning a little bit. Um, and he was in a nice comfortable cocoon of it. Just a gigantic physically dominant team in college that he could chill at the back line of. Um, I had to take here the, like he didn't play in the other games. And I know people are going to go, oh, cow, Kentucky. Here we go. Um, it wouldn't shock me if OTAG L away ends up being their best rookie. I don't, you guys probably didn't even see him. Don't know what the hell I'm talking about. But you can go check on this one after the pod. But wouldn't shock me if that happened. I mean, just rattling off quickly through here too. Um, make sure that I cover, um, Conway or Alan Graves with another one. Did you guys get to check him out for the Raptors? Cause that was a pick that people were like, uh, um, he had, he had some great, like passing moments. Um, he looked ready to roll. Malik Thomas was putting the ball in the basket. He's a wild man. Um, a booco quarry looked pretty good for the pistons. Justin smiling. I don't know. Just jump into us. What do you think? You called them a wild man. I just thought it was morning. Uh, I think you're the wild man of our pod JB weirdly enough. You're both the calming kinks and flammings and the wild man. I don't know where that places. Any of us on the spectrum relative to that. But somehow you're both. Okay. I like, I like being a guy who contains multitudes. I was going to find a way to shoot her and young Hanson in there. But you know, we can, we can move on. It's he's doing some stuff. Did he get to see? Yeah. Definitely too good for summer league. How good is he for the NBA? Yeah. Park to say. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. That's fair. That's always the speed of it. Better. Yeah. Who else jumped? They're always the two good for summer league thing is always a nice a fun topic of the. There's a couple categories. There's the. Oh boy. This guy's barely hanging on and then there's the two good for summer league. The why is this guy here still? Uh, to John Salon is still in summer league. And I was just, is are we how I hope? What do you, what stage of holding on to the rope? Are we at? Is it wrapped around his arm? Like, is he have it like this? Or is it like, there's a pinky on the rope? Where are we? Do you think? I think it's wrapped around the hornets in a way where it's cutting off their circulation a little bit. And they're like trying to figure out how to disentangle it. But there's only so much you can do when it's pulled taught. Yeah. He's at the, we have his next option on the calendar date, just so we remember not to take it to decline on, on the page. And meanwhile, two Cody Williams, who like really had some moments at the back part of the regular season, I'm just like, really Cody, like this is, this is how you're going down in these games. I had a thought about that too because I was, I was like, there's a funny thing going on with him and his brother where Cody's brand recognition definitely benefited from his brother coming on the scene the way that he did. But we do this weird thing where Jalen had the benefit of developing kind of in the dark a little bit at Santa Clara where Jalen's rookie season, he is the same age that Cody is now. And I'm kind of like, would Cody, if Cody had stayed in college, and we've been watching him like baby deer it through the first couple of years of his MBA career, it's like we're really scrutinizing him. It just goes to show you like how different the perception is. Granted, Cody just doesn't have the ball skills and the point card kind of feel that Jalen does. And you know, he'll have moments where he did, he had some pretty erratic like, oh boy, like this is, this is tough. I just, I'm trying to still weigh through how alarmed I should feel about like where he is. I mean, he shot the ball decent in spurts when I was watching. I don't have the stat for any of me, but that occurred to me when I was watching him and thinking about his brother's arc. I'm not full on alarmed yet. I think it's a great caveat as far as the age and kind of where he is. But he's going to be an important player for the chess. Like, he's going to get a real opportunity to play. They don't have a lot of guys who kind of slot cleanly into that sort of perimeter chase and stop mode. That could be a real role for him. Like, there's a lane for him to carve out if he can put his foot down and claim it. Whether he's ready to do that, I really have no idea after these summer league performances. On the flip side, I did like the AJ Mitchell Memorial. I played in the finals, but here I am at summer league. Like, I like the grind of a Carter Bryant showing up, getting some shots off and like maybe playing one extra game out there. That was good to see. And we mentioned Trey Johnson before. Like, he looked physically bigger. Like, clearly he's been in the NBA weight room and he had the one game put up a bunch of points and then just hit Sionara very quickly. But like, that was a too good for some really guy that I think deserves mentioning. Definitely. All right. Want to do a little mail back before we close things out for the summer? I would love to. All right. Two questions on the docket here before we get out. I don't think we're going to do a pod for at least a month. So want to want to reach out to the fans. You know, I want to say I had a lot of people come up at summer league and say and say, Hey, from listen to the show and just wanted to let people know, I appreciate that. It was really nice. Just yeah. It wanted to relay that to you guys too. Had many people send their well wishes and say they listened while they're driving or just a lot of different, a lot of different people occupying their days. And it was nice to hear that. I appreciated it to everybody that did that. Honestly, it's one of the most delightful parts about something like summer league or all stars is just being in the same place as so many of our fellow like absolute NBA degenerates and they are our people. You know, like we have all chosen each other and it's a very special thing. Well, that's a good segue here because the first question is from Jared from San Antonio, who definitely fits the degenerate bill because his question is specifically for one Rob Mahoney. He asks, how many Rob Mahoney's would it take to be one Wembee in a game of 21? And Rob, I think this actually comes down to a different sort of question, which is the scouting report on your game specifically because we need to know like how the Mahoney's mapped together. Like if you have a LeBron, like obviously like LeBrons are going to be able to play off of LeBrons. But like if you have like a Zadronis Augustus, like how many of those guys do you need in order to go against Wembee? That's a different sort of equation. It is a very different equation. There is a diminishing return. I'm not going to lie to you putting a bunch of Rob's out there. I have, you know, three point range. But I wouldn't say it's the strongest part of my game. See, I don't want to offend you, Rob, but you strike me as somebody that can't shoot. That's fucked up. That's so fucked up. And categorically wrong. You strike me as like de mantis. That's what that's what I always think when I think about your game. Just like hand shots, some post game. He'll hit you. We go in the rain, but it's kind of like you said, oh, I'm gonna let you settle. I'm actually wounded by this, but I'm definitely more, I'm a little low post high post flexible. So I do have a little demonetial bonus to my game, for sure. Maybe more needlessly flashy than demonetial bonuses. Like I'm just trying to throw a dumb pass to throw a dumb pass sometimes because that's what we're about. I think I'm a better interior score relative to pick up basketball than Derek Queen is relative to the NBA. So, but here's the problem. This is not relative to pick up basketball. This is relative to Victor Webanyama. So I think the number is going to have to be pretty high. The first thing that came to mind for me was I don't know if you guys have seen that clip of three members of the Japanese national soccer team playing against 100 elementary school kids on a soccer pitch. But I think that might be kind of the baseline we're working with. It's like, I did see this, but I need to. It's it's incredible and super funny. And I would highly recommend anyone seek it out. But obviously five robs is not going to be enough. I don't think 10 robs is going to be enough. I think we're going to have to get into like the 20, 25 robs range and really just like surround Victor Webanyama so he cannot move. That seems to be my best strategy. That's your difference. I mean, you're actually, yeah, you're going, you're going, uh, you're going ATAT on Planet Hoth strategy there. Tangle him up. Don't let him move kind of thing. But I'm curious on offense. How are you scoring my bait? My first basic question is, can you throw a pass? Do you think you can throw a pass period? Yeah. If they're, if there are, if there are 20 robs out there, I think you would have to, yeah, I think you would have to make a bunch of short passes. Because I've heard stories from coaches who have told me that like against, if you're a regular dude against an elite defender, this is fair. This is fair. I, I talked to this is this will name drop. I talked to Kevin Young one time. He's the coach of BYU, but he coached for the Sixers for a little bit. He was telling me that he was a good player and he was like, he played some college and he was telling me he tried to throw passes in Robert Covington's vicinity and he could not. So I'm just trying to, I'm thinking that to scale of you trying to, I think you would have to make a bunch of like handoff type passes to try to get away from a little chips one to another down the chain of robs. Here's the thing. I'm certain to think strategy now and I'm wondering if I'm on offense, can I have 10 robs surround Victor Webanyama and screen him simultaneously so that he literally just can't move. And once we, if we can, and off defensively, we could do the same thing. We can fully surround him. The question is, is Victor Webanyama just going to hit enough completely, completely uncontested threes to just win this game out, right? And the answer is he probably will. And I don't know how many robs are really going to change that because there's only so much space in the half-court. And I assume we're just playing half-court here. And like if you have 20 to 30 robs out there, when we probably can't move, like literally can't put the ball in the deck. And so he's just stationary shooting the entire time because, but then it begs the question, do you put some of the robs on top of robs in order to, in order to like block and shot there, basically doing. I even think about trench coat sort of thing. I think you got to do a few of those. Yeah. I think in theory, you're right. In reality, these robs have back problems and we can't just stack and robs. So I just picture this cascade of a lot of you. Is there also another factor of this? Is there like a hive mind thing where like one rob or are they not connected? Because if they're connected. And yeah, all of you are reacting the same way. I can see that being debilitating. It's like, but you would have to go like the Jon Snow Battle of the Bastards thing where you just suffocate it. Like he's like, when he's just suffocating all the robs. I think that's the only option we have available to us. And I would have to think based on the framing of the question, this is not a hive mind. It's how many Rob Mahoney's would it take? Not how many extensions of one Rob Mahoney. So it's, it's all of us out there being fallible and making bad decisions and getting winded way too easily and somehow trying to beat Victor Webanyama. I'm going to say, offline robs. Yeah. Yes. Sentient offline robs. I'm going to say you would take over 25 robs to beat Victor Webanyama. A lot of robs. I mean, do you think, do you think fewer could could do the job? I think I'm going to say 15 to 20. Okay. But I don't think you're scoring is the thing. I think because since you can't shoot when he's going to be in the lane, you know, and I've lobbed another one at you there. You didn't really react. But I'm unbothered. Here's the thing though. It's going to take that many to beat Victor Webanyama. I could beat any NBA media player one on one. I feel I feel confident. I feel confident. Sorry. Sorry. Qualifier non-former professional basketball player in shape and NBA media. Because you think you would just post me up over and over, right? There's what you think. If you and I are playing make it take it, Kyle, you're cooked. Like I'm driving. You're going to dribble that one kind of cobalt. You're going to dribble that fucker one time and I'm in a back tap it. I'm just going to tell you. You're not going to dribble around me in the post. I'm just telling you. It's not going to happen. No, absolutely. I think we've stumbled upon the better question is who would win one-on-one Kyle versus Rob and when can we film this because I want to see this immediately. I'm going to drag you out to the deep end, buddy. You're going to have to pick me out there. I'm really not worried about it. So maybe this is content. We'll see. I don't doubt that Rob would bury me in the put like I've stood near him. He's much bigger than me. He would he would destroy me. But I don't wouldn't be so sure that you could take I'm a three level score Rob. I'm just letting you know it's going into a really good player who would unfortunately lose like eleven to two. So it's just it's just going to be what it's going to wow. I just got it back Rob is talking about checking me dribble pull up at 25 feet. Give me a five. There's not a lot of checking the card. I'm just going to wait for the first miss and check up. Like it's going to be fine. Oh, wow. I love this. Sure. I didn't know that Rob had that mamba mentality. I did. Did you just catch what happened during the Scott? I did wrap him into being confident. It's true. It's true. I already in your head. So that's another thing I got going for me. There we go. All right. Well, since we have this ball nowhere off going on here, why don't we transition to our second question, which is essentially like how do you determine whether or not someone knows ball? This is a three part question from Jack Kinney. He asked he had this whole lineup where he'd like, I guess people at his work didn't appreciate Dremon. He was like, what are you talking about? Dremon's incredible, which is I think a different level of the ball over sort of thing. I think if you're at that point, you're like, come on, Dremon's a whole famer, one of the best defenders of all time probably. But he asked one, what are the players you're most surprised? You most often have to argue were great. So a player who is great, but you have to defend them too. And I think this is actually the big question. Are there players or opinions that use as a litmus test when hearing someone talk about basketball? He says go to his Dremon. And three, are there players you think impact winning that often go misunderstood? And so who do you guys think, let's take that second question first, like who is the litmus test for you guys? So historically, these guys for me have been like Al Horford, Hawks era, Al Horford, peak plus minus Rikki Rubio. And honestly, at some points, OGN and OB, that's not the case anymore. Now that he's at NBA finals legend, but those are three guys for me who it's always like you can tell what a person thinks about the world based on what they think about Hawks, Al Horford. These days, it's a lot more like Pascal Siacum for me or honestly post spur series, Chet Holmgren falls into this category a little bit too of just like what you offer a team comprehensively and especially defense. Like really what we're talking about is people who watch the sport through the lens of bucket getting versus people who watch the sport and look for some kind of value and defense. We can argue about how much and whether we over index on this or that, but like Chet Holmgren is still an all in a level player, even if he can't create his own shot. Like that is still true now, even if it was like didn't see that way when he was matching up or not matching up against Victor in the Western conference finals. And so I do think about it person a certain way if they start through it like drag and chat through the mud. And or our player like Pascal Siacum gets like omitted from all NBA consideration or something like that based on out of sight, out of mind based on taking his versatility for granted. I like guys who plug gaps. I think that's what I'm getting at. And sometimes those are not always the scores, but you don't always have to do the sexy stuff to be great. I can't stuff laugh about Rob challenging everybody. I can't believe we got that out of you. That was such a it's it goes beyond me. Well, we can we can we can parse that out later. But no, I mean, you rattled off a lot of the names I had to. I mean, it's funny how the the winning sort of ballad eats them and takes them out of the car because I mean, Derek White was like that for a while. Oh, yeah. I mean, Drew was one of the ultimates. Like when people would just crap on Drew, I'd be like, all right, buddy. Like, you don't mind. I already kind of know who you are based on what you say about somebody like a Derek White or a Drew or a Chad or a or Pascal. OG was a huge one, like you said. Yeah. To hit, I mean, to start with like the Derek White for a second, he's kind of gone maybe like totally around the bend of this conversation where when people start talking crazy about Derek White, I'm like, all right, I kind of know where you're coming from and where you stand. And we are in similar places, but we're not not in the same place. Speaking of Derek White, just like as a side thing, he was wearing the coaches polos and seemed like he was talking to guys on the bench as if he was a coach, but can't I George can't do it? It's messed up. What the fuck? Celtic's privilege is so real and I frankly in this context, I find it offensive like let Kionte George coach. Why are we doing this? Um, I mean like his historically for me, one of the big ones is like how people talk about Scotty Pippen. That's a huge one. I think I've banged that drum a lot on this show just when people just like just failed to understand and at times I honestly feel like Scotty Pippen himself fails to kind of understand why he was good. But um, that that's a huge one for me is he's he's one of my all time like role player, but that doesn't even cover it. I mean, he's like a superstar who just could do everything. Um, but yeah, and other than that, I mean like Mike Conley's another one, uh, Aaron Gordon, Andrew Bogut, I find myself defending. Sure. Frequently. Those are just a few or what? Yeah, typically that. Yeah. Uh, well, those are, yeah. I will say, I don't think this is exactly what Jack is asking, but the spirit of the question I kind of don't appreciate because I think we actually need less. I know ball. You don't know ball sort of division in this. Oh, come on. I kind of hate the, like the barriers of entry that we put on these sorts of things where it's just like I think this is too much of a basketball discipline course. And I think like a lot of sports like don't have this sort of side thing where it's just like you need to prove your worth in order to have a. If you just like ride a lot, go screens and all. I know, I know, but that's what how I'm like, I think it can like snowball to that point. The thing is, if you come in here talking about how like Cam Thomas is misunderstood and is just waiting for his opportunity, like, I'm going to think of your perception of the game a certain way. You're welcome to it. Like, do you? It's just like, we are on, we're on different wavelength. That's how it is. And that's why, yeah, I think you guys went a little deeper than I did. I was thinking more of like the like literal like you think this player is bad. But he's actually the best in the league. And I think Shane is the prime example of this where I think to a large extent of the viewing public. He's a fall drawing merchant and is just entirely that if anything, he represents the absolute worst of the league. But if you watch on the day to day basis, it's just like, come on, man. Yeah, you know, I think there's like a matter of taste involved in stuff like that. And I'll just like what you're willing to accept from your stars in terms of some of their like more annoying qualities or like some of the underwhelming parts of their game, whatever it is. But like the Shay conversation and the hardened conversation are looped in together. It's just Shay is also a minted champion and kind of more successful in his way than hard and ever was. And it's funny because both of those guys have gone through phases where it's like early Shay was being defended and there were people who are looking at what he did and they're just like this guy has all these tools and they just are such good players that they had options available to them that other players didn't where they can game a certain thing. And spam a certain thing and you know with with hard and it was the isolation, the fall drawing and things like that and it's like you love it or you hate it and Shay kind of followed a similar path where he found this one button he could push over and over again and it works and it's, you know, love or hate it. But I was trying to think just it seems like what you're alluding to is sort of like a gatekeeping hipsterism, like a kin to like music, you know, it's like if somebody says they like a certain man, they're like, oh, yeah, oh, you like their new album, right. Okay, it's like really it's this album. I don't I don't know if it's necessarily that it's just there just seems to be a fundamental misunderstanding of what basketball is about at times where I think some of these guys, I think nipa tombs another guy that falls like it's phases of his career where he's just been this incredible role player, he just hasn't been in the right places to get the validation that some of these guys have in terms of winning. The conversation I used to get into with NBA coaches all the time was Carmelo Anthony versus Andre Guidala, which one would you rather have on your team. And I the Carmelo wars, I still bear the scars, though, they were intense, they were not going anywhere and this is, this is the historical part of this where. I mean, if Jack is concerned with the Dremont arguments he's having now, imagine 20 years from now when it's people who only know Dremont through looking up his basketball reference page or whatever, like hologram version of that exists and they see, oh, he averaged nine points a game for his entire career, this guy sucked. There's just some things you can only understand in context with time, like in the moment that they existed, like who Dremont Green has been as a defender is off the charts. You mentioned to JV's one of the best of all time, if not the best doing what he does at all of all time in terms of defending space, switching the variety of assignments he could take on all of those things. I think historically, the other one that seems to be like losing its grip with the reality that I understand is the number of times I have to get into a heated argument to convince people, not that Shaquille O'Neal was great, but how great. He seems to be like weirdly slipping in historical conversations, and I think some of it is just like other recent players, other guards kind of like supplanting his place in the NBA order where there are just some forces of nature you had to see to understand and Shaquille O'Neal is maybe like the version of that for our lifetime more than any other player. Do you think that's just because of what he is as a personality on the TNT set and like all these stories coming about like he pooped in this guy's hat and this guy's shoe and those other stuff. I don't, don't do that. Don't do people's hats or shoes or I just unabsolutely appalling stuff from Shaq Holy moly, but like it feels similar to what our parents are maybe beyond do and they talk about will this is just our version of that is like I just yeah I frequently you know because I'll play pickup even with like a range of, you know, young younger dude to we'll get talking about Nell was be you know they do the whole your generations never going to admit that. That LeBronz to go like and i'm just like you're not wrong, but Shaq man, I mean just. That's the start of like Shaq had like 50 60 pounds on like in B you know it's it's like people just don't people can't process it and I think you it's it's going to be one of those things I frequently find myself in that position where I'm like yeah you just had to see it to he's physically probably the most dominant player of all time other than will I would say. I think some of it is he's just an archetype that to the extent he ever was an archetype like he just doesn't exist anymore there is no thing to map Shaq colonial onto in the modern NBA short of maybe prime like peak of his power step in terms of like you have to plan. Every single time you play for this team and if you're thinking you're going to play the warriors in the playoffs you better have three guys on your roster who can chase Steph Curry around. It's probably the closest we've gotten but the physicality of that is just so different. Yeah I mean yannis is the closest thing that we have and I remember at the peak of yannis is powers when he's winning MVP's there are all those stats about like how much he was scoring at the rim and the whole thing was like he was like kind of getting close to prime Shaq but hadn't got there and so it's really like kind of mind boggling from you to think like how do you how do you poke holes and checks effectiveness because he was just such an overpowering like beast that we haven't seen before I guess it's that I guess it's just there isn't really a modern comp. And if you're thinking more about the skills and three pointers in the Steph Curry of at all like to see this big old guy you're running like oh how would he apply to a modern context well like he probably wouldn't be as big he probably would have had to give more of a shit and he would have been like yannis he would have just played probably more downhill attacking and so been a pretty big menace at the rim. Plus I feel like the way we have a lot of these historical conversations is if not zero some kind of close where I mean how you brought up Pippin it's like to make the Jordan goat claim. You kind of have to diminish Pippin a little bit or at least you don't have to put the conversation kind of tends to turn that way. And if you're going to make the Kobe arguments then you got to take some shots at Shaq along the way or at least kind of de prioritize what he means historically in order to make it. And there's a lot of those arguments around like people are making those claims like that's a player who means a lot to a lot of people and so long as that's the case I think Shaq is going to be kind of like in the shadow of it historically in a way that does not square with what I saw but clearly people disagree. All right that's it for us for about a month here anything else you guys want to hit before we reconvene next what are you going to do with yourself Justin. I have so many house projects lined up yeah got got the bathroom finally pulled the toilet the other day I bought it I bought a kit to make a screen for for one of my windows that doesn't have a screen. So it's getting wet and wild here I got the garden often going I had somebody as we were going through the emails for for the mail bag. Wondering long ago like what we're going to call our our live segments from the garden live he suggested live from the garden which I thought was pretty from the garden is pretty well I think I think garden guys is is really the branding here with the Z like it but are Kyle are we garden guys. You can be I would like to be but this is your show I'm not saying i'm close off to it i'm just saying i'm not going to present myself as that because i'm not I can almost every plant I touch. It's about the garden but it's also about the garden of the mind you know it's for a safe place for guys stuck in the loneliness epidemic to come together and be guys with the Z together you know. And so this is a good opportunity to launch my new sub stack garden guys calm yeah actually the first post is up now it's about composting but not just composting in the garden composting your life. You know taking that shit and turning it into something positive okay that's beautiful do we get a comp subscription or do we need to pay for this thing now you have to. No free rides no free rides. GardenGuys.com. Check it out. Uh, yeah, it's except for not existent sub stacks. It's it. You can look at it right now. All right, go for it. Uh, all right. On that note, uh, we'll be back when we're back probably in a month or so, uh, thank you to Victoria Valencia. Thank you to Stefan Innerson for filling in on production. We'll catch you next time. [Music] [Music] [Music]