The Vet At Noah's Ark!! | SOP Ep. 115 - Dr. Douglas Mader

Welcome to Speaking of Pets! We're the Novotany Sisters from Cleveland, Ohio! I'm Dr. Alice Novotany-Jeroman, a board certified veterinary dermatologist. And I'm not. I'm Janet Novotany-King, the doctor's sister, podcast co-host, pet owner, rescuer, and lover. We're here to provide pet owners with science-based information to help them be the best pet parents they can be. Here's today's episode. Create a just for you and your pets. Hey everyone, welcome to the show. Janet, I have a new favorite book, and you know I don't have many. Yes, this is true. The vet that no one's heard. Yes, and the vet that no one's heard is Dr. Doug Maider, who is triple-borted. What does that mean? Specialists not only for cats and dogs, but for reptiles and amphibians and herpetology. What's herpetology, Janet? Study of herpes. Actually, that was pretty good. No. Snake. But no one would say he's a smart cookie. Smart cookie. But anyway, I have so looked forward to meeting Dr. Maider, because we have mutual indirect friends. And I hear Dr. Maider in Key West. And I had no idea when I'm reading the book, this is a memoir when your office was in the hood in LA. So now he's cross-country to Key West. So anyway, I couldn't put it down. Number one, I'm looking forward to the next book. And all the stories that I want you to talk about today. He had a skunk with a heart problem. Mickey, the monkey that couldn't walk. I mean, I'm not going to give it all away. It was just he is a vet's vet. And something that, you know, when an injured animal, no matter what the species come through that door, I would have complete confidence in him, as opposed to me. So welcome Dr. Doug Bader. If it had bad skin, I'm your man. Okay. Thank you so much. It's an honor to be here and share the hour with you all. Oh, thank you. Thank you. So may I ask, just out of my curiosity, before we get into all the interesting cases, what caused the trek across the country to keys? I was born here. Oh, did not. Wow. I was born here. My father was in the service. And we were stationed. Well, we were born in the upper keys. And he was working up in homestead at the military base. And then being an army brat, we moved around quite a bit. And then eventually Uncle Sam took him off to Vietnam. So the family moved to a military base in Hawaii. Which is basically where I grew up until I left her high school. I'm excuse me for college. Then I ended up in California for over 20 years. And then I loved the scuba dive in California. The water was extremely cold. And my wife and I said, you know what? Hey, I'd love to go back to where I was born and go diving in the keys where it's warm. Yeah. And you don't have to wear a wet suit. And so we came out to the keys to see where I was born. And it was like a salmon coming home. I didn't go back to breed. I just came back. That was where I was born. Yeah, breed. And Spain. It was just like it was calling me to come back. So I literally looked at houses when we were there on vacation. And the cost of living was like maybe a fifth of what it was in California. And I invested in a small cabin. And about four or five years later, I ended up moving your permanently and started all over. But I just love it here. It's so different. So the first book is in Los Angeles. Yes. The second book, which is in press right now, is also in Los Angeles. And then the third book is in the Florida Keys. Oh my gosh. Did you buy an existing practice in the keys or just open your own there? Well, I mean, I know you opened your own. But you know what I'm saying? We did buy a practice that when we first moved here, my wife is also a veterinarian. The wife that I moved here with is not the wife in the book. Okay, the nurse. You'll learn about that in book three. Okay. So she's also a veterinarian from Switzerland. And we moved here. She went to go work for an existing practice. And when I first moved here, I was just lecturing and writing and then working as a consultant online. It made more money than I ever made in my life with no employees. It was a lovely job. Then we had a really nasty hurricane in 1998. And owner of the practice where my wife was working. His wife said, "I can't do this again. I'm leaving either go with me or we're getting a divorce." So he fired stale. He sold the practice to my wife. He left. My wife had never run a practice. I had owned the practice in Los Angeles for over 10 years. So I said, "Listen, I'll help you." But I really liked my life of sitting in a hammock, working online, you know, just doing consulting, lecturing and writing. So I started helping her in the new practice. And we got so busy, so fast. It was a one doctor, basically a one and a half doctor practice. And now when I jumped in with her, within six months, we hired a third doctor. And eventually we were up to 10 doctors so we had to build a new hospital. And you know, ended up being a big city referral center in the middle of nowhere. But that's how we got here. Today's episode is sponsored by Dr. Tim's pet food. Learn more at DrTim's.com. So I assume there are a lot of exotic pets in the keys. There are. Yeah. It's interesting. I saw a heck of a lot more of exotic pets pets when I was in L.A. But here in the keys, I do a lot of wildlife work. So one of the things that actually encouraged me to move to the keys when I left California was, I started working at the sea turtle hospital. And all they do is sea turtles. And so I was there, their main vet for 24 years. On the island that I live on, we have the smallest angelic in North America. It's called the key deer. Yes. It's a white tail deer, but it's about the size of a gray hound. They're really cute. They're like little bonds, I deer. Do you see any of them? Many of them. As patients, though. I mean. I am the vet that does all the work for U.S. Fish and Wildlife. So when I own the hospital, we sold our hospital about five years ago. When I own the hospital, if they needed surgery, I would take them up there. Yeah. Now, since I sold the hospital, I take care of a small zoo in Key West and we have a little hospital there. So now if I have a deer that gets hit by a car and needs care, then I take them down to the zoo and I work on them down there. And then, man, I've worked on whale sharks. I've worked on sperm whales, pilot whales, pygmy whales, all sorts of dolphins. So lots and lots of wildlife. Alligators up there was a zoo. Have you been dead? Yeah. Pardon? Have you been bitten? Bitten? No. You know, I used to volunteer at Crow on Santa Fe. And I remember that former director was bitten. She had a pretty good bite on her arm. Yeah. From alligator? Yeah. And it wasn't a big one either. Right, right. Have you seen the picture of me? It's made the cover of a couple of magazines where I'm swimming with one of my patients named Casper. No. And what has been asked? He's about a three hundred and fifty pound alligator. And I'm holding him in my arms and it looks like he's smiling. That better be in the next book. No, that'll be in book three. Okay, in book three. Oh, my God. Now, I'm interested in the key deer because I think they're adorable. What do they come in? I mean, obviously injured. But do they get anything in common? Like, I know they can have demodex, you know, demodex mites. Right. But what would you be seeing them for regularly, if at all? Probably hit by that. Probably hands down. Well, the number one cause of death is vehicles. Probably number two is almost everything is human interactions, anthropogenic. That's causing death. So number one is vehicles, hands down. Number two is probably animals get into trash cans. And then they ingest foreign material and then they get blockages. Okay. Or they get into the trash and they get stuff stuck on their feet or wrapped around their heads. Or, you know, maybe tangled up in somebody's fishing net hanging on their back porch. And then after that, we do have a handful of natural diseases. Actually, I'm not aware of them getting demodex. They do get a type of mite. The probably the most common act of parasite they get is lice. Yeah. And it's really seasonal. And right now we're just coming out of our dry season. And the lice are really bad when it's the humidity is low and it's dry. But as soon as it starts raining all the lice clear up and go away. When I first started to volunteer at Crow, the first day I went in there. The vet tech had a white washcloth on the top of her head. And I was working with a peloton. And I said, oh. I said, oh, what's going on here? And it was the lice. And yeah. Oh, they're nasty. Yes. And, you know, I remember my husband and I were walking on the beach and sand. Well, I was. And then he gets the call, bring the beach towel in the box. And he knows then something's -- we're going to run something up to Crow. So we put it in the -- he said, well, can I just put it in the back seat? I went, no, lice. We're going to get lice in the car. But you don't realize it. Do you see a lot of pelicans? We do. We do. We do. We do. We have two wild bird centers, one in Key West and one in Marathon. We live kind of right in the middle between the two. My wife does all the work for the wildlife centers, and so she doesn't. a lot of the pelicans. If they have a really complicated case, they'll call me in because I'm a surgeon and she's a really good surgeon but some of the stuff she doesn't know how to do. The one thing though, just for the listener's sake, is that Lyce are very species specific. So they will jump off a pelican and they're big nasty suckers on the pelicans and they're biting Lyce. So they'll jump on you and they might bite you but you're not the right host so then they jump off. That doesn't ameliorate the fact that you get covered with them and one of my favorite words and I can say this, it's not one of the seven, you're not allowed to say on TV or FCC bands. Formication, have you ever heard of that? Like fornication. No, no, no, it's not the word I used. It's fornication with an M. Formication is the feeling of ants crawling over your body. So like you'll pick up one of these pelicans or you work with a key deer. Next you know all of the Lyce jump on you and they're crawling all over you so you get that feeling of formication. Yes. Okay. And it drives you crazy but you shower or get rid of them and they don't stay on you because you're the wrong host. Remember the birds have a body temperature of about 106 to 107 and we're at 987. So the Lyce jump on you they realize you're not the right host and then jump off but it's still it doesn't change the fact that it's gross. You know what? I'll speed them in now but mother growing up, our mom growing up, I remember she had said that they had chickens growing up and that they would get Lyce from the chicken coop. Oh, I didn't know that. But the chicken the Lyce don't stay on the people. Yeah. Well as she made them. No, they'll jump on the people, you'll get bit, you'll get it, you'll get it, but then they jump off. The difference is that they won't reproduce on you or as if the Lyce jumps on a chicken they're going to have romance and they'll have more Lyce, okay? But if they jump on you they may bite you, they may cause a rash, but then they're going to come off. And you know that, Jen, I was going to say that brings me to when I was a senior vet student at Ohio State, we manned the phones. And the most common call we got was, um, can my dog get Lyce from me? There must have been a lot of people that owe Lyce with, well, a pubic Lyce and the dogs were sleeping in bed with them. But I'll never forget that. It's like, I got another Lyce call here. Yeah, honest to God. Well, there is, um, you've probably read the paper. There is actually a paper that's been published of a dog in Berkeley that got pubic Lyce from its owner. And I won't go into any more detail than that. I did not read that. So Dr. Maider, have you ever treated the hemorrhage? This conversation has really gotten far away from you. It's a little spicy. Have you ever treated the Hemingway cats? No, my wife has. They have, they have a vet, a house call vet that does all of their cats form. Every once in a while, again, she's a house call vet, so she doesn't have surgery facilities. So every once in a while, they would get a cat that would need an intervention, whether it be an ultrasound or an endoscopy or possibly surgery. So to answer your question, yes, I have, but no, I'm not their vet. Oh, that's cool. Okay. So what cows is an exotic pet? Well, flip it around. I mean, the domestics are going to be your dogs, cats, rabbits, ferrets. Yeah. And then pig, sheep, goats, horses, cattle. Pretty much most everything else is going to be considered exotic or non-domestic. Oh, that's interesting. But Janet, what I learned from the book, and is this still true, Dr. Mator, that you're not allowed to have a parrot as a pet in California? Is that still true? Yes. Yeah. And it's the only state, oh, no, California and Hawaii are the only two states who are not allowed to have ferrets. And why is that? Do you know? Just so we went in. There's a lot of politics involved because I mean, ferrets are in the other states. And one of the concerns that the California Department of Fish and Game had was that the ferrets would get out in the wild, and they would destroy and upset the balance of the native wildlife. But they haven't done that anywhere else in the United States. But maybe there's something special or some invisible force field around, you know, the state of California that changes things if a ferret comes into California. And one of my very, very good friends is they head of California Department of Fish and Wildlife veterinarians. Yeah. And we have this conversation all the time. So I don't know why they haven't allowed it. I know there's a lot of politics behind it. Yeah. But what was interesting was, and I talk about this in the book, is that nowhere in the law in California is to say you can't treat a ferret. It just says you can't own one. Right. And remember our hypocriticals that we took, you know, were supposed to end suffering. And so if somebody brings you a sick ferret, in California you can say, I'm not comfortable treating this. It's an illegal animal or you can say, yeah, it's sick. I'm going to treat it. Yeah. So we did. And we actually advertised in the other pages that we treated ferrets, because there's nothing in the law that says you can't advertise. So we saw a ton of ferrets. Hope you're enjoying today's Speaking of Pets podcast. Every week we feature a board certified specialist, your metallurgy, lead, oncology, internal medicine orthopedic surgery, ophthalmology, dentistry, you name it. If it affects pets, we're on it. We're here to share some really good information for pet owners, practical information that is science-based so that you can be a pet or other and have a healthier pet. To learn more about your pets health, check out our other episodes wherever you get your podcasts. Hi, everyone. I'm Larry. Some of you know me as grandpa Larry. And I run Larry's Animal Safari on YouTube where we share sweet and educational videos about baby gorillas, zoo animals and the amazing teams who care for them. If you love animals of all kinds, I'd love to have you join us. You'll meet little ones like Jamila and Kayambi, learn how zoo families grow and enjoy real moments that bring joy and curiosity to animal lovers everywhere. Just search Larry's Animal Safari on YouTube or click the link in the show notes. New videos go up weekly and each one supports awareness for animal care and conservation. Thanks to speaking of pets podcast for all they do. Now let's get back to the show. When I first moved to the Keys, Charles River Laboratories, you probably have more information than you want. Charles River Laboratories owned two islands. There are hundreds of islands in the Florida Keys. 43, 43 male, yes, raccoon and lowest keys. So there are 43 main islands connected by 42 bridges stretching out over 120 miles down from Miami. And there were two private islands owned by Charles River Laboratories, raccoon and key in lowest key. And they had wild colonies of macaques on those islands. And you may not know this, you may. But I did my residency in primate and zoo animal medicine. So I had come down here and I have spent some time on these islands with the primates. They're the healthiest, most beautiful animals you've ever seen because they're living in the wild. You know, in the rain, the humidity, the thunder, the lightning, the bugs, all the stuff that normal monkeys live in. And I don't want to get into the politics behind it, but eventually they got sued by PETA. And PETA couldn't get them to get rid of the monkeys because the monkeys are so healthy. So then PETA got wise and they sued Charles River not over the monkeys living on the islands, but over the monkeys destroying the main grove trees, which are protected tree in the state of Florida. And they won the environmental lawsuit. And then Charles River had to take several thousand monkeys from the natural habitat that they were living in and put them in cages. So other than that, yes, there are PET monkeys, but not too many. And yes, I did my residency in primate medicine. And yes, I really love monkeys, but no, I do not endorse people having PET monkeys. So I will see them because again, I feel like it's my duty to take care of the monkeys, but I always talk people. I don't think it's a good idea to have PET monkeys. You know, I have a question. Are there certain exotic animals that make surprisingly really great pets? And then are there some that are kind of a challenge? I think it's person by person basis, probably. I think there are certain snakes that make really good pets or certain lizards that make really good pets. There are people, you take that same snake that could be a really good pet and you give it to no video fob, which is a fancy word for somebody afraid of snakes. And of course, they'll pro-lapse and it wouldn't go so well. So I think so. I mean, I have a pet macaque and I personally don't like big birds and cages, but I inherited the macaque from my ex-wife. And she's just turned 35 two days ago and she's one of my best friends in the world. She doesn't live in a cage. She lives in a big play pin. So yeah, I mean, some of the exotic pets I think, you know, the human animal bond, I'm going to jump aside a little bit here. The human animal bond is really powerful. And I know you've talked about that a zillion times, right? And what people don't realize is that the human animal bond isn't just with, you know, a young girl in her horse or an older lady in her canary or somebody sitting petting a cat on their lap watching TV. The human animal bond can be anything. Here's something we love about Dr. Tim's pet food. Every formula starts with a question. Does this act? actually help the animal, not just look good on a shelf. Dr. Tim has spent decades as a working vet, and that experience shows up across the entire product line. 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I can share with you from a personal perspective. We had a horrific hurricane here in 2017. We had a cat five come across. We lost our house. And we evacuated with my whole zoo. We loaded up the SUV, but I couldn't bring my fish. And I had a huge fish tank. But some of my fish had had over 15 years. I couldn't evacuate my fish tank. And I left, you know, I had backup pumps and backup batteries and backup this and backup that. Everything I could possibly do. Now, when you have a hurricane coming, you really don't think it's going to affect you, right? But I came back and the hurricane destroyed the house. The aquarium was a huge aquarium. I actually got moved, but it didn't spill. I had two. One of them spilled out. And I can only hope that those fish are off swimming and happy somewhere. But the other one, because the power was destroyed, the oxygen lines, life support was destroyed, all my fish died. And to this day, that hurts me more than losing my house, because I didn't evacuate with those fish. Those fish were dead. And I'll never get them back. And they were fish that were part of my life. Again, some of them were 15 years. And so a human animal bond is real. People think, oh, you can't have a bond with a fish? Of course you can. I come home from work. The fish are all sitting on the side of the aquarium. And they're excited to see me. Yeah, not because we talk a lot, but they know I'm in a feed them. And they make-- I had a crappy day at work. I feed the fish. They're happy. That makes me smile. So that human animal bond is real. And it crosses species. So to answer your question, Janet, yeah, I think a lot of exotic pets make really, really good companions. And you know, there was a paper not too long ago that proved fish recognized their owners. Oh, they do, absolutely. Absolutely. I said, I had a fairly large aquarium. And it was in the living room. And the fish knew me. They knew my wife. They knew our pets. But if we'd have guests come over and visit, and the guests would walk up to the aquarium, all the fish would swim to the back and hide behind the rocks and stuff, because they didn't recognize the people. And turtles are like that, too. I think-- Absolutely. --turtles, to me, are very emotional. And in the books I've read about people that do turtle rescue, a lot of them-- a lot of people that have had problems in their past, like extra users and things like that, really bond with turtles. There's a spirituality there that I think is just lovely. Yeah, turtles, turtles, I don't remember how many thousand in general there are, but there's quite a few. They have great personalities. They have really good hearing. They've got great sense of smell. And probably-- well, not probably, hands down. The most common turtle is the sulcata, often also called the African-Spurred Turtle. And it became popular in the early '90s by Hallmark. And every year, during Easter, Hallmark would have this commercial. And it would be a big turtle wearing rabbit ears, and then an actual rabbit. And then there would be a Cadbury egg right in front of it. Now it was a TV commercial. That original turtle was one of my clients, one of the NLA. But anyway, that commercial spurned the desire for people to go out and buy it, because they're really cool turtles. They got phenomenal personalities. The problem is that they're the third largest tortoise in the world, and they grow really fast. In 10 years, they're over 100 pounds. So people buy them when they're literally like this big. And in 10 years, what happens is there are 100 pounds. People can't keep them in their apartment. And even if they have a small yard, they're like bulldozers. And they destroy everything in your yard. So then they think, oh, well, the zoo will take it. Well, guess what? We have 15 of them at the little local zoo. We can't take anymore. We don't have any room. So a lot of times, people the other day about a week ago, I got a call from the sheriff's office. They found a big sulcata walking on the side of the highway. Somebody just dumped it. And I think what bothers me too, about people that get turtles, how much do you see nutritional deficiencies in that? They have no clue. Oh, I think. I don't even interrupt. But you can use that across the board with exotics. True. You know? Oh, I got a new hedgehog. Where do you feed it, dog food? Oh, I got a new frog. Where do you feed it? Oh, dog food. And it's a contrived environment. And we give them an artificial diet. And we do, for them, what we think they need or they want, not necessarily what they actually need or what they actually want. And so that's going back to your comment, Janet. What animal is a good pets? A lot of these animals are really good pets. But they don't make good pets if you don't know how to care for them. And then the animal suffers, which is tough. That's hard as a doctor for me to see, because many, many, many times when you do exotic animal work, it's not medical issues. It's husbandry issues. I remember in the book about the woman turtle expert that brought the one into you that I was just waiting for you to clipper. I really was, because I knew as soon as she brought it in, and you said it was really emaciated in your death, I thought, damn it, she probably was starving it, or giving it the wrong nutrition. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, that's sadly really common. I was going to ask that question. How do owners know what the right diet is? Because that's so important. As you said, Google. Yeah. And what happens is, they're going online. And if it's online, it's got to be true, right? Yeah. Again, I'm going to digress, because I do this all the time. I have a ADHD or whatever you want to call it. Me too. My own lovely, wonderful sister. OK. So I'm married to a veterinarian, who's I think one of the brightest people I've ever met. I've got decent education, triple board certified. But my sister will read something online, and then she'll ask us about it. And we'll say, no, I'm sorry, that's not correct. And she'll say, but I read it online. And I go, well, Diane, do you want to believe something that you read online from somebody that you don't know, or do you want to believe something from somebody you're related to, who has got a higher education, and is very academic, that you know when you trust. But I read it online. So it's the same thing with the foods. So somebody online says, oh, you've got a whatever, a pet Belgian polcano snake. And you should be feeding this tootsie rolls, you know. That's what I do. It's like, oh, I read it online, so I've got to go buy some tootsie rolls. And the vet says, no, no, you need to feed it small mice. Oh, no, I can't do that. Right. Or remember the client that only wanted to feed vegetarian? Yeah? Yes. Now, what animal was that? I forget it was a rip. That was a black and white tagoo. And it's a carnivorous lizard. And Janet, she said to Dr. Doug, she said, I can't feed it. I'm a vegetarian or vegan, whichever. And I can't feed my animals another animal-based. And he's like, yeah, but you're going to kill it. So then did she give it to you? What was the other story of that? She ended up-- she didn't give it to us. She boarded it permanently with us. And we-- so that we could feed it. And she paid for the boarding. And she paid for all the food. But she just personally could not-- You couldn't do it. --eat it, because she's a vegan or even a dead animal. Because I'd recommended that she feed it pre-killed animals. And she wouldn't do that either. She couldn't have it in her house. So we had that animal for years. So OK, so veterinarians, I'm going to ask you a question. So does every veterinarian start out with basic vet school? And then you specialize? It's school by school. Joanne, you can-- or excuse me, Alice, you can answer how your school was done. But when I went to Davis, they had what was called a track system. So when you got to your junior year, if you knew you were never going to work on a poodle, and you only were going to do cattle, you could do what's called a food animal track. Now, you were still required to take small animal medicine classes, because you need to pass your state boards. But you would take extra hours doing food animal stuff, whether it's dairy cattle, meat cattle, pigs, whatever. We also had something called a zoo track. So we could take extra courses in exotic animal work. And at the time, I went to vet school, which seems like in the dark ages now, we were like one of only three schools that offered exotic animal medicine. So that's the way we did it. it back then and I know my school still does that. They have a track system but about you Alice, they offer a different option. We didn't have a zoo track. You're right. And that's why what I was going to ask you is where did you get all of that exotic animal experience because we didn't get that. It was small animal and I pretty much knew I was going into Durham because I don't like surgery. You know anyone that does surgery, I'm like this. Oh my God. I gush over them because I'm just I think that blood and those blood vessels should stay in here. You know what I'm saying? So I knew I was going to do Durham from the get go but we did not have exotics and and you know we had a good Raptor rehab unit which I volunteered at and that was interesting to me and I always remember it was funded by we would all go around and get all the pop cans because at eight o'clock class it'd be like so then we'd go and collect all the time and that's what funded our Raptor rehab program at Ohio State at least back in the 80s when I was there. Turning the can. Yeah we turned in the cans and we got the money baby. No we did not have exotics and that's why I was so fascinated when I read your book because what do what year did you graduate UC Davison? 86. Okay I was 89 at Ohio State because I had another career before this and and so I thought to myself gosh where did he get all that exotic's experience because I'm very envious of that I think that's really cool. I was very fortunate for on two accounts. Number one Dr. Murray Fowler was our one was the head professor and he was one of the original six veterinarians that started the American Association of Zoo Veterinary Group. So he was he's Dr. Zoo I mean he's amazing and then there was another veterinarian who actually lived in Davis and he was an adjunct professor at UC Davis. His name was Dr. Fred Fry and he is what everybody considers to Godfather of reptile medicine and he wrote all the reptile books way back before I was even in vet school and I got to know him really well. We became extremely good friends so I had two very good mentors and then I just read a lot. I've always been a very avid reader so as much reading as I could do and volunteering as I could do and that's how I got the experience. And I think you have to have that love to learn. You know like even though I'm retired now and I'm doing a bunch of stuff, Janet will tell you I'm probably doing listening to one or two podcasts or webinars a day or I mean yesterday in nature oh my God you'll have to see it if you don't get it I'll send it to you Dr. Mayor. It was a really good article on octopus and the anatomy where they have three hearts and it was fascinating and how the study of their vision is so different than any other animal and same with their neurotransmitters. It was only a couple pages I couldn't put it down so I actually tore that out before I got rid of the rest of the journal but yeah it's it's so cool to always be learning and I'm sure I'll never treat one but you know and the other thing that's interesting about octopus they are protected in the UK and Europe when you when they're studied in labs not in this country even though no no they're not considered no not under the USDA at all they're under the animal welfare act but not under the USDA right right right and and they said although most people that work with them in this country still abide by the same rules and regulations right okay maybe yeah did you ever again me dissociating like I always do have you seen the movie my octopus teacher fabulous yeah that was Sally Field no it's Craig Foster wrote it he wanted an Academy Award for it if you haven't seen it you need to see it it's amazing I did see it really something wait a minute is that with the gentleman that then brings his daughter in because she wanted an octopus that was a documentary I think I saw no no he has a son I didn't see it yeah no it's it's he lives in South Africa and very long short story short he goes swimming every morning and their water down there was like 40 degrees and he does it without a wet suit and he's also a videographer and he does nature videos and he made friends with an octopus and then he documents his relationship with his octopus and then he basically shares with the viewer what he learned from the octopus I don't want to share anymore the net it's it's it's extremely good book extremely extremely amazing movie and it will rip it'll tell your heart out so I have a box of Kleenex with you the other one that I thought was good was a documentary about these two men two or three men in India that rescue kites the the bird and you see because they feed on these big mounds of trash and here in this little shed these guys are with pennies on the dollar trying to bring these kites back to life and that documentary I don't usually watch the Academy Awards I watched it that year because I was hoping they would win and I don't think they won but it brought a lot of attention to their cause and it's it's another tear tear jerk or one two yeah share something one of us right here where you come here one of us oh not any any names I think she kind of got into trouble okay oh god oh my god I have a rescue golden and she knows when the school bus drops all the kids off yeah here all this so I was texting my nose when going can you go check on Libby I hear it's and she got called in so I don't know what happened you know I have a comment on the skunk patient that you saw an LA that had heart disease because when I was I was a hospital pharmacist before I was a vet and one of the doctors there Dr. Moss dollar who was one of the psychiatrists called me up one night at home because he knew I was in vet school and I was still working part-time as a pharmacist and he said my goat has congestive heart failure and at the time we didn't have time and we had did Jackson you know this was back in the early 90s and he said can you find out if I can use that in a goat and I have to tell you Dr. Doug had I known you then I would have called you I called Washington DC zoo you know how in veterinary medicine we all know each other you know and so I called everybody could give me an answer on that so what did you do what I he did put it on Lasix I know that but I don't think you ever put it on ditch I think in situations like that you know you have to be a pioneer and you have to try it understanding that I would unfortunately sometimes it doesn't work and I'll give you an example that I'll carry with again I'm dissociating like I always do you know I'm sure Alice people have asked you know like you know how many animals have you saved in your life and you know people ask me a question on time and I think you know I don't know a lot but the ones that I remember the ones I didn't save you know it's on me it wants me yeah when I when I first moved here to the keys and I started working with the sea turtles the guy that owned the sea turtle hospital didn't have a vet so he used the vets from University of Florida but that's 10 hours away yeah and so they could only come down here every two or three months to help out so he would have turtle cases that were sick or injured that sadly would sit there for weeks and weeks and weeks before a vet would come so when I started coming it was amazing for him because like I could check on the turtles every day right yeah and I remember the very first time I did surgery on a turtle it was a turtle that got its flipper chewed off by a shark so I had to amputate the stump of the flipper that what was left of the stump and I'm closing it all up and had very rudimentary it was basically picnic table surgery okay and when I was all done I says what do you have for pain meds and he goes what do you mean and I go well I want to give the turtle some pain medication because he just had his arm it was flipper amputated he goes well we don't do that here so that just freaked me out having and you know you read my book and I was in a horrible car accident I've had like 27 surgeries and I don't like pain and I don't want my patients to be in pain and one thing I was taught in school on especially my residency was how important post-op panel jeez is so I went ahead and I bought a bottle of banamine which is flunics and megalamine is the name of the the actual drug and at the time it's that's a non-steroidal it's kind of like like an ibuprofen type drug all right the first that's the right house right yeah absolutely but you know keep in mind this goes back 35 years ago and so I went ahead use my own money I bought a bottle next time I did surgery I did two surgeries on two turtles and I wanted to give each of them a shot of the banamine because I've used it back then you know it's it's really for our animals but off label or actually label you could use it in dogs dogs not in cats and so I used it in the turtles and guess what I killed them both is that right yeah so here I am where is my hand I killed two endangered species yeah it's like okay yeah that's not good yeah okay the first thing I did was I published it because I don't want anybody else to do it you know yeah I made a huge mistake but nobody else had done it before I needed to do something I felt like I had to do something to provide animal jeez for these animals so I did what I knew worked in other species but it didn't work in the sea turtles in fact it killed them but now other people know [BLANK_AUDIO] because of my screw up, they know not to use it. - Well. - So yeah, a lot of the time's like the did joxin' in the go. You just have to try it and understand that it may work. Nothing may happen or you could have a dug experience. - And it might be destroyed in the room, you know what I mean? - Yeah, it's nothing ever happened. You're right. - For our listeners, like Alice, I know you walk on the Florida beaches and you've taught me what to do if I see an injured animal, but what are tips for our listeners to find like, I don't know, a raccoon that's still alive or a seagull on the shore, like what do we do? We're out there on the beach, we're somewhere. How do you help that animal and get it to a facility? - Well, boy that's a toughy because number one, you never want a person to get injured. Number two, you don't want the animal to be injured. So if you don't know how to handle that animal, you shouldn't touch it. - Yeah. - And even if you see an injured raccoon, you also have to go an extra step too, like, I live in a special world here. We live on an island. We don't have rabies. We don't have Feliascus, which is the really nasty worm that raccoons carry that can kill people. So, but I know in the majority of the country, you do have rabies. So why is that that raccoon injured? Because it had rabies, it's neurologic. It wandered out into the road, got hit by a car. Now you go to pick it up and invite some scratches. Do you know you've got rabies? So I am not going to sit here on a podcast and tell people to go out there and very carefully catch it and put it in a garbage can and get to the wildlife center. The thing that new is to call animal control. And hopefully they have the proper phone network setup where they know to call a wildlife person who specializes in raccoons or maybe small mammals or a bird person or whatever. But the thing to do is, you know, morally, you don't want to walk away from it. But you should at least make an effort to call animal control and then report it so that something can be done. Because again, you don't want to get hurt and you don't want them to get hurt. Last night, I'm just a human, me, I want to do something. You know what I mean? But that's really good advice to call animal. Because I wouldn't know what to do with a wild animal, you know? Well, yeah, but did you see on the news last night and I just saw it on this morning, there was an otter acting crazy in this river. And these like four or five kind of like teenage boys. 'Cause who else gets harmed by stuff like teenage boys, right? It wasn't an otter. I'm sorry, it was a fever. Yeah. And this morning, now, the rest of the river has rabies. Yeah, it's got rabies. Oh, yeah. Wow. I thought it was the river otter, Janet. I really did. Anyway. I mean, picked up the beaver and like threw it back. It was bizarre. It was insane. And those things are solid. They're not small. No. Wow. No, if they have to go through the rabie series, that would be a shame. I was exposed to a rabid cow back in vet school. Really? Back in the day. Yeah. Back in the day. Yep. I, you know, at myself, a couple other texts and a few other people that were exposed to it, we all had to go through the rabies series. And that was not fun. In spite of the fact that you were already vaccinated. Yeah. When it comes to feeding our pets, we believe in results you can see over hype. And that's exactly why we're proud to partner with Dr. Tim's pet food. Dr. Tim Hunt is a practicing veterinarian who spent decades formulating nutrition for every kind of pet from the laid back lab dog to his own I did a ride sled team. Check out Dr. Tim's pet food and see what science-back nutrition looks like for your pet. They'll have a shiny coat, more energy, healthy weight, and more. Because every great adventure, even a nap on the couch, starts with a healthy pet. See, I'll tell you an interesting story. My mother raised us natural hygiene. I was never vaccinated for anything. So when I got into vet school, it's like you get this vaccine. And they were actually back in the '80s, in '85 when I got in, they were using some vet students to do that. I got the monkey diploid one. But they were also trying to get another one marketed. And because I had insurance, I'm like, nah, I'm not going to be part of that marketing. I'll just pay for the monkey diploid. I've got medical insurance. And I'm going to tell you, I got really sick probably because I had never been vaccinated for anything in my life. And here I come. But funny, do you check your titers very often, Dr. Maider? I haven't. Probably in the last 10 years, because we don't have rabies here. Oh, that's true. I got-- I had-- So I did when I was in California on a regular basis, but I have not in the last 10 years. Because again, we're very lucky we don't have it. Yeah, I had mine checked before I was volunteering at Kroh, because you couldn't work with the raccoons unless you had rabies vaccinated. And it was like 800,000 times. And how many years has happened? 40 years. So yeah. Thank God. Yeah. No, when I got vaccinated originally, we still had the-- it was the egg yolk based and the really thick stuff. It hurt like hell. Yeah. And I remember, because I had it in the stomach, and it was like, oh my god, was it painful? You couldn't breathe, you couldn't bend over, you couldn't cough, you couldn't pee, you couldn't poop, you couldn't-- it was horrible. Worst vaccine I've ever had. See, the worst one for me was I got the shingles vaccine. Oh, that was nasty too, yeah? And you know what, the first one I was-- I was literally like, for three or four days. And then the next one wasn't as bad, but my husband came home from his annual physical on December 23rd. So Christmas Eve Eve. And he goes, yeah, I got the shingles vaccine. And I'm like, are you out of your mind? Because Christmas is in two days. He was a mess for like a week. I never went for the second one. Wow. Because he was so sick. It was-- I don't know-- A lot of people don't because of that. Yeah, you're right. You really do need the second, because it goes-- I don't remember the actual number. It's something like 65 to 97% protective. Yeah. So what pets do you have now, Dr. Doug? I have two dogs, two cats, two snakes, three tortoises in a macaque. Oh, what kind of tortoises, the ones that get huge? No, I didn't get one of those. Everything I have is rescues. Most stuff is from clients that couldn't afford their bills and wanted to put the animal to sleep. And I'm a terrible businessman. I'd say just give it to me. I'll take it. So I have a leopard tortoise. Tracy, she was in the book. She was in the first book. And then I have redfoot tortoise and a little star tortoise that I got after the Hurricane Irma. It was kind of sad. One of my clients lost everything he owned as well. And he had just purchased-- he was a very wealthy client. Just purchased this tortoise called a Burmese star. And he brought it into me. He was in tears and he goes, I can't keep this tortoise. I've lost everything. I don't even have a place to put it. He goes, can you find a home for it? And I have always, always wanted a Burmese star tortoise. But they're real pricey. And I could never afford one. And I says, well, I would be honored to give him a home. And he's going to outlive me. But I will do the best I can as long as I'm alive if you're willing to accept that. And so he gave him to me, so I ended up with him. Oh, how cool. Speaking of that, what's going on with the importation of-- well, the illegal importation of exotics into this country? I mean, what's your opinion on that? Are we really clamping down on that? I mean, I-- Oh, big time. Horrible stories. No, no, big time, big time. Back when I first started, pretty much all the exotics that we saw were imported. And that's birds, reptiles, you name it. Now you can't import that stuff anymore. And fortunately, what's the good news is that it's led to good captive breeding. And so with the captive breeding, you've got healthy populations. You don't have the diseases that they bring in from wild. You don't have the parasites they bring in from the wild. And you're not depleting the wild population. So it doesn't mean that poaching still doesn't occur in these other countries. It's just not being sent legally here in the United States, but they are being sent elsewhere. I travel a lot. I've been very fortunate in my career and I get to travel quite a bit. And I just got back from-- I went to Indonesia and it was lecturing in Jakarta. And I went to this huge reptile show. 90% of the stuff they had there was imported. They were selling green iguanas in Jakarta. And of course, we have them running wild here. Oh, my god. But I mean, they weren't all that stuff. And there's still a huge illegal pet trade. Fortunately, this country has pretty much shut it down. Wow. Executive leader, what is your pet or human peeve? Human peeve? Pet or human can't be any pet peeves, right? Oh, I guess my human peeve is with work and having owned a hospital for so many years and having many, many employees. My biggest peeve was running out of stuff. Yeah. When you open the last bottle of items or whatever, write it down so we can order more. As a pharmacist, I can tell you, that's my pet peeve. Yeah. Biggest pet peeve for pets is usually not their problem. It's the human problem. And that is owners that let their dogs run loose and crap everywhere and don't clean up after it. And they're loose dog. dogs, they call them that large dogs with the animal control, that go and attack other dogs in people. My own two dogs, which are very good, well-behaved dogs that I walk on the leash every single day, they've been attacked three different times by loose dogs, and now, be honest, I carry a weapon and I pack heat, no question, no, I do, but I don't, because I'm not walking the dog, I'm not walking it hinkly-like anymore because Annie always came back with ticks and gives it I don't walk and she, so they're in their own, they got a big yard here, yeah. No, I'm with you, Dr. Mator, and I love when I start to spout off on someone, why do I have to leash my dog, and you don't have to follow the rules, and I get told it's none of my business, and then I do the, but it is my business. I get that all the time, because the island that I live on pretty much the entire island is refuge land, because there's a little key deer that live here, and it's, in our county, it's illegal not to have your dog on a leash, and the fines are doubled on our island because it's a refuge, because people go, well, my dog would never attack a deer, the deer doesn't know that, and so the deer sees a loose dog, and what does the deer do, it turns and runs out in the middle of the road and gets it by car, you know, and, bless their hearts, I'm sure I'm going to get in trouble by the tourist development council, but the tourists come down here and they'll want to see the deer, so what do they do, they take their bag of Doritos, and they shake it out the window of their car, and all the deer come running out of the woods, because all the deer want to eat, and then the tourists feed them and take their pictures and their selfies, and when I see that, I'm always polite, I'm extremely polite, and I always stop and explain to people, please it's illegal to feed them, you can be fined, and then I get the middle finger wave, or I get the, you know, I'm on vacation wave, or, or, you know, some explotives, one of the seven words we can't talk about, and then I finally have to say, listen, A, I'm the veterinarian for the key deer refuge, and I'm the one who has to treat it when it gets hit by a car, gets in a paction, and be, by the way, I'm also a sheriff's deputy, so I can write you a ticket now, or I can just take a picture and I haven't sent to you in middle of your vacation, and then, again, I usually get a few choice words, and then they take, they leave. Oh, Janet, I need to become deputized, I never even thought about that, or if I'm with a fake, you want to clutch that badge. No, that's my dream practice flipping out that badge. Well, I'm serious, because when it comes to an animal, you don't even want to get started. You know, when I was in vet school, and I came home on weekends, the idiots that lived next door to us, it was a divorced guy with twin boys, and I sent the cops over there before, and the, when one cop came back and said, well, you know, they don't have a mother, I said, not my problem, okay, they, my cat came home with a leg hole trap on it, and I want them prosecuted. Tim's pet food. Until next time, keep asking questions, keep learning, and keep loving your pets. So anyway, long story short, I can't even remember what I said to them, because I was crazed. I didn't have a gun at that time, but so I, you know, I've toned it down, but I would like to have some kind of badge or some kind of. I don't think you toned it down, and we have to understand Dr. Mators Alice is very petite, but comes on strong. Well, and I'm also like you, Dr. Doug, I'm OCD, my, like, I'm doing a webinar on ectoparasites next week, and I got to tell you, one Hispanic vet said to me, I talk fast, but I've never met anyone like you that talk faster than me. And so I wrote in the thank you note in Espanyol, because that was my major. But no, I want everyone, when I'm thinking of something, and if it's not on track, I don't want to forget to say it, because then I forgot to tell someone, they might learn this, you know? Right. So I get it. I totally get where you're coming from. But anyway, that's. Oh, I love the sheriff deputy thing. Oh. Thank you, Dr. Mators. Thank you. She's on to some. I take. I've been. My second client when I moved to the keys was, and it's very unique. We have a jail in Monroe County, and they have a zoo completely within the jail. And it's all taken care of by trustees, and it's the only one in the country where it's actually within the bounds of the jail, it's within the fences of the jail. And so I have been there veterinarians since basically day one when I moved here, and then because I'm board certified in different areas, and I worked for the sheriff's department, I was always there, go to expert for amateur cases, anytime they needed an extra opinion on something. And after about, well, probably about 10 years maybe, the sheriff came to me and he says, we want to deputize you, because then when you go to court, not only are you a legal expert, but then you're also a sheriff's deputy as well. So they deputized me and I've been carrying a badge for the last 20-something years. Like Elvis. Elvis was deputized. I didn't know that. It was. Our sister lived in Memphis, and she's an Elvis file, not a phone, but a documentary. When does the book come out, the new book? It's slated to come out December 15th, but the new one, we haven't picked a final name yet, but it's probably going to be called the vet from the urban jungle. It also was in Los Angeles. So December 15th, and that is depending on, without getting into politics, what happens with tariffs and paper supplies from China and all that other stuff, if all the ducts line out, December 15th is the release date for the book, and then I'm going to do a big launch at the VMX in Orlando in January. Oh, that'll be cool. Two things, yeah, on the thing, on the show notes, I already got that in there. But two things, Carl Heisen, when he appeared in San Abel to talk, and this was great because you know, it's all old people, only one person passed out. So yay, and then the second question I have is, was Jimmy Buffett ever one of your clients? No. I shared the same IT person with Jimmy Buffett, that's the closest I ever got to him. But Carl Heisen, if you notice, he wrote a blurb on the back of the book. I did. I met him because he had pet snakes. He loves snakes. No. And I met him 35 years ago, well about 30 years ago, he brought his snakes to me, and we just hit it off. We just became fast friends. Yeah. And so he and I are still really good friends after all these years, and his wife and those my wife, and you know, we've watched his kids grow up, so he's a super, super nice guy. I could show you, my husband loves his books, I could show you our shelf with all the Carl Heisen books. That's cool. That's your one thing with Dr. Raider. So, the Novotany Sisters, Alice and Janet are not snake fans. I've just never, so what we do when we're out in our wild suburban yards is if we see one, we scream "SNAKE" because we just can't say it. Yeah, because snakes can't spell, so they don't have this screen. They're all over it. And, you know, I have two cats that are in and other in and out cats, and they're fabulous. And one day it's like hangin' different women's mouth, and I'm like, "Oh, it brings it in." And I'm runnin' the other way. I'm goin' "SNAKE" in the cat mouth. "SNAKE" in the cat mouth. Yeah. I'm cat-less right now because when we drive back to, we're restoring a home in Venice, Florida. We moved out of San Abel. And it, you know, it was a lot with the two rescue goldens, and then the old cats that were in kidney failure, it was a lot. So, I'm on a cat break right now, but I'm gonna get to as soon as I can. I think that makes a lot of sense for you guys going back and forth. Yeah. And we're old. You know? That trip gets harder and harder every time. Well, we gotta wrap it up and say, "Thank you, Dr. Mater, this has been fascinating." I can't wait for the next book. I'm serious. Thank you. I would be doin' stuff in Venice, and, you know, 'cause the house is gonna take another year, probably. And I'd be like, "Oh, but when I get home, I can read the next chapter." So, you always know you like a book when you can't wait to get home and read more of it. Yes. Well, thank you. I've been told the second book is good or better than the first one, so I hope so. Okay. And congratulations to that, Carl. That's awesome. Yes, but also all the beta readers and the editors. Oh, good. Yes, quite a few people have really enjoyed it. You know, just before we go, you know, Rusty Moore, he's the Dean at Ohio State. He's my classmate. And he's on his third book, I can show it to you, I'm the human animal. I'm a human animal. Oh, yeah. Okay. Yes, I knew he was. Yeah. Well, Rusty and I had a talk because, all right, all three of us are veterinarians, and you and he turned out to be authors, it's like a whole different world. Yeah. And he's on his third book, too. After the first one came out, he was already starting the third, and you sound very similar. I guess these publishers know when it catches on. They want a crank there. But it's, you know, I've written countless peer-reviewed articles and three medical textbooks. And as I told you in the beginning of the show, one of my goals, and I was still in pre-high school was I wanted to. write a book for the general audience like James Harriet. So now I'm at a stage in my career where I have time to do that. And it's my sunset career, my passion, my happy place. And I hope to keep writing for many years to come. Can I ask you when you, because the writing style is so easy. Do they, how can I say, do they advise you on that? Or is this just you? No, it's me. I wrote both things. No, it's good to know. Because you never know how much the editor cleans it up, you know? That's what I was, I was always told to be afraid of the editor. But the editor that I hired, OK, this is the last story. I know we were running out of time. I wanted to hire an independent editor before I took it to the publishing house. It's because I wanted it to be spotless. And I got names of several editors, some from Carl Hayes and some from some other people. I interviewed a bunch of editors. And I ended up going with this editor. And it turns out that he worked for Harper Collins. And he was the editor for James Harriet. And did the original James Harriet series? It was so easy. When he got my book, he goes, oh my god, he goes, this is like deja vu. He goes, I would be thrilled to work with you on it. And he was the nicest guy. And we worked and clicked so well. And he did very, very little changes to my writing. He just kind of just, you know, cross the tees and dotted the eyes. Well, Janet, you'll be getting one as well as our other sister. So hopefully our other sister won't be watching. And it'll be a surprise for her when she's the librarian, by the way. Yeah. Oh, very cool. Well, thank you so much, Dr. Mator. This has been incredible. We appreciate you and the work that you do. Wow, it's just fascinating. Thank you, honor for me. Thank you. Hi. She's a fan. Invite me back when the new book comes out. And we can talk about that one. Yes. We love that. Thank you, Noah. We'll read it. OK. Thanks for listening to us and share us and look for a new episode every Wednesday. Thanks for listening. All right. Bye. Hey, thanks for watching and listening. We like likes. Don't forget to like, share, and subscribe. You can follow us on social media at Speaking of Pets. And give your pets a big kiss from the Novotni sisters. The Speaking of Pets podcast is an SLA video production.