‘The Vampire Lestat’ Episode 4 Deep Dive

(phone ringing) - Hello, welcome back to House of R, I'm Joanna Robinson, that's Molly Rubin. Our pod never stops for gas, we run on bots, and abandonment, it's the vampire list at. - Are you excited, Molly? - I can't wait, I almost texted you in a Gabriella/Sofia's capacity, you made a terrible mistake. This Tiki bar is full of wonders. - Ooh. - But I thought don't burn pod. You know, save it for the pod. So now here we are, and I've saved it for the pod. - You have, but actually I would like, okay, and then I'm gonna do the, yeah, right after this, but I do, I wanna go to a Tiki bar here in Los Angeles. I would like some recommendations from the bad babies. So, hobbitsanddragonsatema.com for your Los Angeles Tiki bar recommendations, 'cause we have some fun vampire themed drinks we're supposed to get this month. Okay, all of that, right after this. This episode of House of R is presented to you by Target. For 30 years, Pokemon has shown that adventures are better together, and Target is calling all trainers to the celebration. That's because there's something for every era of fan in the Pokemon and Target limited time collection. Thought you found them all after the first drop? Think again, drop two just landed featuring life-sized Pokemon puzzles and an instant print digital camera. The entire collection is in store and online. So check it out now. Explore now at target.com. (dramatic music) Today's pod is Vampire Elastat. Season three, episode four, Devils Road, 'cause I suppose we're just a sister didn't roll off the tongue. - Just an incredible moment. - Absolutely wonderful. That was like maybe my hardest laugh of the episode. I thought that the ridiculous from Lista was iconic, and it is a, it's, you know, it's that name? - Yeah, Lista. - A parent lived in Lista for a hot second there, while they were still married. So a long time ago, I had very briefly. - Parker Reminer's Vampire Elastat every week. We only have three more episodes left, very sad. - Sheesh. - But here we go. We're barreling towards the end of the tour. - Yeah, how's the dragon though? - That's right. - I mean, we're only two episodes into this season of How's the Dragon. We got a lot more coming. - Should we do? - Top of the Throne's episode two already exists in your feed. You can find that that happened on Sunday night, and then tomorrow is our deep dive. - Yes. - Will it be as unhinged as last week's keep up? - I hope so. - One can only hope and drink. - I hope so. - One can have a great time. - I had the best time. - Let's try to match that energy. Okay. - Power, yes. - I can post get all of their dragon and vampire needs from us. - Follow the pod. - Why not? - Let's sit. It's all you have to do. Follow the pod on Spotify. Or wherever you get your podcast, but you can watch full video episodes of House of R and the Midnight Boys, peep peep on Spotify. You can also watch full video episodes on the Ring of Versus YouTube channel. So follow along there as well. While you're at it, follow us on social. We have new wish. I don't know when we have to retire new. This is always something we. Sometimes we keep new in the mix for a year and a half. We'll see what feels right. New wish, social handles. At House of R pod on Instagram and TikTok, we've got breakouts from the pods. We have fun photos, we have graphics. We have all sorts of things going on to me. - Social first stuff. - That's right. - Dragon Math. - Check it out. - We'll be found on our socials. - That's right. - A little beautiful mind action with the. - That's great. - That's great. - A great show. - Yeah. - Beautiful stuff. - All right, and then Hobbits and Dragons. - email edgmail.com as we already mentioned. Tiki Bars or anything else you have in store for us. That's right. Spoiler warning. Today's podcast will be informed by our knowledge of the books, The Vampire List at and The Queen of the Dam. Not to mention an interview with The Vampire. But no book direct spoilers until the very end. We will have a book spoiler section with a sound that will delight and titillate you, but not give you a cardiac event. - Right. Yes. And I have no book knowledge. So it's a delight and titillate, but not give me a cardiac event. It's an experience for me as well. I can't wait. (laughs) Let's go now to our opening snapshot. - Let's do it. (upbeat music) - Episode four, Devils Road, Mallory Rubin. Did you like this episode of television? - I did, I'm having a great time with the season. I think episode three was still the high bar. That was just exquisite. But we're keeping the momentum going in a way that I'm excited by. I feel like there's a lot of million-treating mid-season. Oh, we can feel we're moving toward the next major event. Kind of stuff happening in this episode, but as is so often the case with, interview with the vampire, into the vampire list at, the intrigue, the action, the harbingers of doom are all entwined with these lovely character beats. The humor continues to mix with the horror in a way that I just find really expert in astonishing. - I have some questions for you about Bloodshower hygiene that I don't know when is the right time in the pod to get into that. You let me know. - We can do right now if you want. Okay, here's my question. - Yeah. - Obviously very memorable scene. Very effective and memorable sequence. I have basically no notes on that front. - I said you have a few notes. - I have questions. - Yeah. - Okay, so the Bloodshower comes down. We are in, I'd say never has a character on television been such an effective audience avatar as our mom in that moment. We are speaking of the generous endowment and just doing this. We are our mom, our mom is us. - Correct. - Wonderful. It's nice to feel seen, known as understaff. - Representation matters, great stuff. Okay, the Bloodshower comes down and then there is a very brief period of cleansing with water. - A rinse off. A spritz. - Yeah. - No soap? - No, and he doesn't even get all the blood. - Does he not reek of blood? Like part of what I understand in my heart and soul, despite never having it happen to the same physical space as Lista, to be true. Is that he smells like cinnamon and cotton candy. - You think Lista smells like cotton candy and bubblegum? - Sandalwood and what kind of smell is good to you? - I just feel like he probably smells delicious to everyone. - Oh, there's some like Harry Potter situation where it's like whatever your most favorite smell, that's what exactly could be that. - I think he smells like patchouly bloody pre-come. - Yolang, Yolang, you know. Yeah, so does he just smell like iron? And like-- - I would not be surprised if he'd constantly kind of smells a little rusty. - Yeah, okay, it's tough to know. - We did get an email from Lista, I hadn't included, but they were sharing some anecdote from the T-Rex, the band T-Rex has been referred to a couple times in this season. My delight, Mark Bowlin is lead singer of that band. He said there's an anecdote from Mark Bowlin that like people were so excited by the T-Rex experience that they would just like hiss themselves in the audience and the T-Rex shows just like smelled of piss. Like they didn't want to leave to go to the bathroom so they just like peed themselves or they're too excited. Or, uh, you know, like not on the right drugs or like whatever the case may be, I don't know. But like the, and so our listener was like, what do you think the vampire Listaat shows smell like? That mix of like bloody pre-com plus sweat, plus whatever. My, yep. And welcome to our podcast. We like my, my thing after the shower is like, why even bother with the rinse, 'cause he does the rinse off, but he doesn't even like get, like there's so blood, like watery blood on his back. And that's just gonna like, but then, and then when he gets on stage to do his big boss performance with details and the incredible makeup, fantastic. - There's like blood. - Yeah, there is. - Crust on his neck. - Well, it probably mixes oddly with the glitter. - Sure. - You know? - Wow. - That glitter never comes out. I'll tell you that much right now. - Especially if it's kinked in blood. - Kinked him, crusted in blood. - Yeah. - Yeah. - Sam Reid gave an anecdote about the, the blood shower. He said when they were first showing him what it would be like, they put like a, like a test dummy underneath and they're like, this is what it'll look like. And he was like, that dummy was like, sand blasted with blood. And I was just like, I can't perform a scene with this much the dialogue. - Blood, like pouring, like shooting down on me. So he's like, they turned off the outer ring and it was just like the center. - So he could do this. - That's why he's doing that. - Yeah, do the like around the blood thing. So yeah, it did. But I just like, I would love to see the, the behind the scenes footage of that, of that like test dummy just getting like, absolutely blasted by blood in the blood shower. - Incredible stuff. I wonder if there was any commentary on whether the dummy had a generous endowment or if that left, it was left unremarked upon. I think on the Torbus hygiene front, yeah, also feels worth noting here in the opening snapshot where we set the stage and hit that real top level highlights that one of the funniest moments in the history of television was when he walked by one of the camera men and he's like, shit and die. Which in an open air shared Torbus experience, I think is appropriate feedback. - I don't know that I've ever noticed that there was just a toilet right there. - A shit and die. - Yeah, like the showers in the middle of the room, we know that we see many people shower in there. But there's a toilet just right there in the middle of the room with no, you know, and the camera man's like, oops. - I feel like he had started the process. - I just sort of like that point. - Yep, that got really good. Whenever I'm here, it was that. I don't know. A lot of toilet pull action this episode too, because of the cocaine, you know, and we got a good sense of the geography of the bus. I had a better feel for the floor pad. - Oh yeah. - The upstairs. - The upstairs. - That was helpful. - Made me feel like I was touring London. But by watching the stop, tell people not to take shit. - Oh, because of the double-decker bus situation. Got it. - Love it. - All right, quick corrections. I also love this episode. I also think season three was sort of the high water mark so far this season. But something that I love about the show. You know, not everyone is loving this, but I love about the show is like, again, I can't get the clothes captioning to work on my screeners, which is fine. But it really just means that it takes me like hours to watch this show because I just like pause to write things down and go back and relisten. And I'm like, it's Daniel Maloy, shouting out the names of Pulitzer Prize-winning journalists as he's bowling, is that what's happening right now? - Yeah. - But it's just going so quickly that it's so dense in a way that I really love because it just feels like a treasure trove for me to root through like a truffle pig. But like, sorry, that's a cave here reference. But I think that something I was thinking about, this episode is credited to Johnathan Chinaceroids, maybe something like that. Anyway, probably really butchered that. But there is just a, like a pattern, a patch wall to like every single episode that reminds me of something like Buffy the Vampire Slayer where Joss Whedon used to give every episode like a top pass, right? We're just sort of like the rhythm of the show and the jokes per minute and all that sort of stuff came from like one singular mind. And I have to wonder if like Rollin' Jones like does a similar thing where like the humor is so singular and so fast and so sharp that it really feels like it. I don't want to take Rob Credit from anyone else on the writing staff and I believe in large and robust writers' rooms, but it really does feel like one person's voice is shining through in these episodes. And it's like one of my favorite voices and television really works for me. So yeah. And I also think it's one of the ways where in a television adaptation that is distinct and singular it also feels very much like novel-esque, right? Where like an author is giving you a version of the universe and I agree, like you know, the episode's very certainly but there is a clarity of tone and a cohesion episode in like the pace and the clip. - Yeah. - I was hearing you say that. It makes me think of the one of the Buffy anecdotes you shared. God, I can't remember what it would've been season three or season four 'cause it was one of the more recent Buffy pods but about how like some character at some point got a line-- - A zander line for Willow. - You can't hat, like that's a zander line, right? - Yeah, I can't just like give a zander line to Willow 'cause Willow doesn't have a line in the scene. - Yeah, exactly. - Yeah, like Listaat's lines are unmistakably Listaat's lines, Louis lines are unmistakably Louis lines. It's actually one of the interesting things about being in a place now with this like Regina Claudia. - You can say the exact same thing. - Where you're like, we, I'm so in a really good satisfying fun way as if you are clearly intentionally destabilized and disoriented by this because there are moments for us for Louis where you are just like in a raptured and deceive yourself into thinking or maybe you're like, should my theory be going like, am I with Claudia and then there are moments where you're pulled out of that very intentionally and that's been, that's been quite fun. I thought that this was one of the better Daniel showcases on this front, too, this episode for just giving, I mean, the, the, the bowling scene was very fun and everything, but like the, um, taking over the, the steps from Armand, the, like, the pitch in "Begosian's Voice," the rage and the real feeling of like betrayal and terror, you know, the Daniel feels in that moment but also with that kind of like, for Daniel, that's something that can never really, it feels like be stifled for too long, even in his moments of uncertainty, which is like, I'm gonna tell you why I know best, you know? - Why I'm smarter than you. - Yeah, it was captured so effectively in that sequence. So I'm excited about that, that's what I'm sorry. - I'm certainly sorry. - Having Armand here, you know, like I just, I really missed him and I loved having him here. But quick corrections department/info department, the CN Tower collapse that happened in last week's episode was apparently only in Listaat's mind per Rollin Jones. And, and we had listeners point out that like, the tower collapses, then later you see Listaat drive by it and it's like back up and intact. So this was sort of like a psychic reflection of the turbulence of Listaat's mind and not something that like a big bad vampire accomplishes and like that. We had been floating some theories. I don't know that I fully grasp that, but I'll be interested to see if that plays out in other landmark locations. Is, you know, is Listaat bringing other skyscrapers toppling? I don't know, but I thought that was kind of strange and interesting, especially in a show where we're moving in and out of time so much. And sometimes just cutting very quickly to flashes from other periods on, like given timeline. Like the harbor flashes that happen in this episode, a very like important moment for Listaat that we don't understand what's happening until we see it in a moment. And last but not least, you might have already tracked this, but like fun fact, Listaat says something different after the opening credits song every week. Last week is the first week I noticed him saying like, well, that was a piece of shit or something like that about the song and I was like, oh, it's even saying that every week and I just missed it. But no, he says something different every week. And this week, he said, did you hear that our mod at the end of the opening credits song? So something to track. - Love this. - Let's go now to our deepish dive. (dramatic music) Calling this section, hey big bus, aka the Marginal Mystery Tour. We're gonna do just like kind of all the bus tour stuff here as much as we can, right? So we get this, this is called the Devil's Road, we get this upside down shot of the freeway, very reminiscent of the Immortal Universe, upside down New Orleans like opening that we had in seasons one and two. - Did it make you think of Agatha, our beloved Agatha in the Witches Road as well? - As well as especially paired with music and just the idea of kind of like what is known and unknown and what is the trial and what is the test. I think you know I'm always the Agatha Witches on the mind. - Always thinking about witches, which stuff go, what would you say? - Always, we get a shot of both a Joey Chestnut who was a competitive eater who was mentioned earlier in the season and an Elon Musk Bobblehead. An Elon Musk Bobblehead is like one of the worst Bobbleheads I could possibly contemplate. What's the worst Bobblehead that you can think of? Is it a sports figure that you hate? Like an enemy of thine Orioles or Ravens or something? - In terms of what would really upset me to be like around in a contained space every day, it would probably be a Bobblehead of the camera guy from a documentary crew taking a shit in an open space. That would be pretty upsetting. - Just like his ass wobbling over the bull. - Elon's a good, again, it's really hard to top Elon. - That's a tough one. - The Joey Chestnut one is so funny. The fact that that's come up multiple times. The season is incredible. - Any thoughts, we get sort of like a montage of like this is what it's like to be a rock band on the road. A montage, love that like tough cookie has a groupie in her lap and stuff like that. - Wonderful. - I want to talk about Salamander. I want to talk about anything that's going on in this hedonistic sort of montage we get. This is like an example. It's a visual version of what you were talking about with like the density in a great way of the show where like you're listening, you're watching. You could rewind and rewatch the opening. I don't know, like fourish minutes of the show and spend three hours just trying to parse every detail with an honorary visual passie, yeah. And it's really fun to go back and do that. The end to think like what is being paired intentionally when we get a list of voiceover with what we're seeing. There is a certain aspect of it. We're just giving yourself over to Christine Snorting Coke off of like the neck of a prone man pinned beneath her with a condom like wrapped around his ear. It's like he used condom. Any level that you choose to watch the show on is probably going to be rewarding. I also quite enjoy it. Let's get the old guy to watch you choke me. Yeah. This was a great Christine episode. Well, I'm concerned. Oh, I think she's fine. I hope so. She was just like she would people out while they were like stalking her wounds. Yeah, she had some feedback on the bullet care. I was just like, I just like that she was just like being a ball buster till the better end. I think she's fine. I sure hope so. You know, I need to say goodbye. She didn't seem okay. Yeah. More annoyed. More irritated than anything else. Listed out pronunciation watch. Please rank these for me. Chipotle. That was great. A return of a classic red meat for red deets. So my favorite and we're just her Massachusetts. Is it red deets for you? That one has yet to be topped because I think it is just there's something about it that just absolutely kills me in a way. I can't quite explain. I think it's the way that he's trying to take something like reddit and make it feel very like posh. Tarje. Exactly. Yeah. Exactly. So that just kills me. I love it. I think the fact that we went from the Worcester pronunciation lesson into his ridiculous into receiving the text update from Sophie about, oh, look, she's getting her twat laser. [BLANK_AUDIO] Overall, Stretch was tough to top and the way she typed it was some having my lawn scorched. And he knew what that meant. He did. He's like, "I've received this very close." Because they're very close. Very close. Very close. I think Red Meat for Red Deet is incredible. Just making it like sort of like a rhyming couplet makes it even better. All right. The Talamasca Bot Army, Listot gives this direct address to whomever is listening to the failures. And once again, a nod to how obscenely rich this person might be, right? Like we got the gilded bathtub reference earlier. And like obviously, if you won this bidding war, you have a ton of money to spend. But he said, "Should your privileged purse strings become interested in pursuing the actual truth of our recent apocalyptic adversities?" Yeah. ominous. Look no further than that watchful order of the river of discreet money flowing in dark directions. So the Talamasca, using their money to boost engagement with the band. Any theories as to, I don't know the answer to this. It's not like a, this is not a foundational book information I have. But I would guess with this sort of great conversion, like it seems like it's aligned with what Gabriella's intention is, which is like the more Listot sings, and the more his message is spread, be a song, and now per the end of the episode, hopefully an album. That's right. And the studio at last. Yeah. The more, Magnus will be so pleased. The more the vampires of the world will get encouraged to bite and make more. So is that, is the Talamasca Pro great conversion? Like, does that feel right to you? Does that make sense? Not really. They seem to like be trying to keep like a lid on all the vampire activity, right? Yeah. I don't know. I'm, yeah, fueling the bots and spreading the word and reach. And it is interesting to see just the kind of like, obviously the voices and that stretch with the static Gabriella at the end here, the voices in the way we can track the swing, right? Right. In and of getting the season. Yeah. It's like, you shouldn't be doing this. And even again, to have like the great laws and vote directly in this episode and then see, okay, we have Listot. We have Louie. We have our direct touch points for like, fuck your rules. Like, I'll do what I want. Right. It's been a really long time. But to see that wider effect where like the voices were saying, don't do this wrong. You're appareling us into you have allowed us to like tap into something about our of empiric nature that feels right. Yeah. Gabriella is directly trying to wield Listot, that scalpel, right? Point him to cut the path that she wants. So we should be concerned. I thought the cuts from him looking at his like the bullet wound in his hand into the flashes at the lake and connecting these, these, because we had flashback to see these like moments about the way that Gabriella talks about evil, right? So everything about Gabriella and her intention of wanting to spread evil and wanting to fuel the great conversion feels clear. The tala masca's involvement, motivation for swelling the ranks is something that I've, I think, less of a, yeah, a good read on. I don't understand at all, especially because it seemed like. And when Raglan was sending, and, and to be clear, I don't know that we should feel certain that Raglan's goals are aligned with the tala masca's goal, you know, but like Raglan is the one who sends Louis after Bruce and he was sort of talking about indiscriminate, you know, turning of people and stuff like that. So here's a quote from season one, the first time the idea of the great conversion, which to be clear is a show idea, not a book idea, sort of related to some book ideas. But there's nowhere in Anne Rice's books does the phrase the great conversion occur. But this is Louie talking about the state of vampirism in season one to Daniel. He says just the opposite, most of them are slaves to the blood exhausted from decades, centuries of hiding, giddy to increase their numbers, pandemic, the unraveling of geopolitical foundations. One of them, a brute Madagascar called it the great conversion. So like this idea of like, vampires tired of hiding, and this goes back, you know, obviously in this episode, our mom's like, hey, let's not shut the fuck up. Because you're, you're spurring this on and our mom's agenda has always been. Let's keep it under wraps. You know what I mean? That was his whole thing in Paris, which is why he like kidnapped Nikki in the first place is that like, Lestat was being too obvious, and he's like, we got to hide underground. And Lestat has always been like, why should we hide ourselves? We are such beautiful godlike creatures, you know, our mom also a god in this episode. So quite Alex, I've got some questions about Alex, yeah. Shout out, a cab Lestat, when this officer and his dog, Delilah, bored the truck, the bus, incredible montage of them trying to like, can I eat this? This much cocaine, and then just like, dumping it down is for anyway. They got rid of so much cocaine, and there was still a giant bowl of cocaine on the table. It's just like extraordinary. Made me think of, of Greg and succession, you know, I hope you don't die. It's like, that's a lot of cook. That's a lot of cook. This Lestat says, the body cam, democracy's compact mirror, incredible line. And then you, you need your expansive interpretation of the Fourth Amendment to do your job properly. I just, I really loved this exchange. I thought it was incredible, the like, dusting of the cocaine on the officer's face, the like mention of like, if you took my blood, if you test my blood, it would be weird. Yes. Your department would be underscored me, you know, like blah, blah. So Lestat sends him away for their own self-interest, and Christine being like, get the body cam, like, for their own self-interest. But also like, you know, he doesn't just like kill him, you just sort of like sends him away. Yes. He's like, you should take more time off. You should care about your home life. 35 hour work. You know, so say we all, um, it's cocaine, we're a rock band and we needed to do our job properly. He said it's so just like matter if we needed to do our job. And I loved to write on the, the, right before that, because he's like, it's cocaine. And Christine's like, whoa, yeah, allow me to do my job and protect us. And for basically two and a half seconds, he plays the good boy. Yeah. And they're just like, no, it's, it is actually just cocaine. And we knew it needed to do our jobs properly. And the way they think it's like, it's fun now on the heels of the band a couple of episodes and understanding the fuller truth to watch the way they watch him and to like think about how they are processing this. I think it's especially because it feels like something probably pretty bad is happening with Alex. And then you think of like Larry is not just his bandmate, but his brother. Yeah. Then you have something like list that observing in this stretch of this episode was like the first time T.C. I thought maybe I can be a vampire. And if that isn't like a perfect encapsulation of the really organic, great conversion effect, people are watching the start, behaviors of vampire and saying that seems fun. Yeah. Yeah. T.C. would be a great vampire. Fantastic. Um, I love inside of this episode, we've been talking about sort of the evolution of their sound, the evolution of their music, uh, watching inspirations for certain songs. The way this episode opens with Salamander and T.C. pitching this song Big Bus about the tour bus, uh, a horrible song, uh, that list out is giving like complex musical notes that I don't understand because I'm not a musician on. But like this sort of like very cheerleader country sort of like flipping their ponytail, uh, vibe that they're trying to go for, um, this song turns into Big Boss, the song he sings for. So Big Bus becomes Big Boss. Right. It reminded me of like, um, just me kind of was talking about this when we did this sort of like preseason, uh, episode talking about the Beatles documentary get back and one of the great joys of that was watching them sort of like noodle over songs and like take a song you know and, and sort of like trying out various lyrics that all sound wrong until they lock it on the eventual lyrics that we all have memorized because we know these Beatles songs. But hearing them and their sort of like proto phase and you're like, Oh, no, what if that's how that what if that's the, uh, you know, how something the lyrics to something had stayed or whatever. So like watching Listat take the, the shitty Big Bus and turn it into Big Boss, a song that I really liked. Um, so Banger. It was really fun. Yeah. A Banger. Great disc track. I'm sure that our bond to, as you just noted, really it would prefer things to be kept on the, the DL. You loved it. You loved it. You loved it. You loved it. Not only in front of the assembled in the room, but as we know that is now being distributed via bot to. Danes. Danes only. Danes filming. Danes filming. Danes filming. One of the short, quick shots we get of Louis as he is. Oh, let's just say it's stalking Regina, which I'm excited to talk about today. So concerning stuff from our guy, Louis, he's just like watching clips of Listat on his phone, which is obviously for their relationship wonderful, but it did, you know, there's something kind of an escapeable about. And, you know, the fact that the, like, the record label stuff, Sony Warner for body, who? And then this guy's like, I hadn't heard about you. I didn't know who you were three days ago, right? That of course gave me, like, is the telemaska engineering this vibe, so without question, but like, you know, the band is, they're blowing up. For body is interesting to me because I was like, is this, I don't know, so little about the music industry that I'm like, is this real, are the Bethanese a real band? Show us your dance. Show us your dance. They do not appear to be per my Googling, but if I'm wrong, let me know, but I could not find a band called the Bethanese, but I kind of wish they existed. Sounds great to me. What are we going to say about Alex here or elsewhere? concerned. Yeah. So do you feel like he's how Armand got on the bus? Not that I suspect it's like very hard to get on that bus necessarily, but especially if you're Armand. But like, I mean, it's okay. So it feels like a few things are true at once right now, right? Armand is in a certain state, right? He is like, he's, I think there is at least something genuine happening with this period of reflection. Yeah. Right? It seems like certainly when he is saying to Daniel, I hurt you more than I've hurt like the thing I did to you is the worst I've done. Whether or not that's true is obviously open for debate, but and the love that I felt that was distracting it was not for Louis, it's for you. It feels like everything that's happening there is is genuine. Yeah, and also the actor has said as much, which is fascinating, very interesting to watch. That I think what has always been fun about Armand and what was particularly fun in the middle and back half of season two is watching the way and you know, all of these characters are different and unique, but they have like this through line, right? And that's the thing we've been talking about this whole season and why the idea of like rock star songwriter, public figure who is like trying to correct the record is so perfect is like a vessel to explore these ideas. They all have some genuine truth that they're carrying and they all are trying to package that in the way that suits their means and their ends, right? So I think that like when we watch Armand with Daniel and San Francisco, is that what makes you fascinating. Obviously something stuck from that exchange and a seed was planted that they bloomed, but like he has felt often wronged cast aside, diminished. Yeah. And I think that those feelings of inadequacy and fear and like that sense of being mistreated are legit. Then what he does with those feelings is often awful, right? And that is also true. And I don't think it's like an accident that we were reminded yet again in this episode that the theater was a trial that resulted in actual death. And that he was not only complicit in it, but a puppet master of it, right? Right. The guiding hand. Yes. So I don't think it's the place. So like I don't think it's it is impossible. I think whether Armand is finding something actually cathartic and therapeutic healing about the process of working through the steps, whether he actually is like I am an addict, I should take that seriously. It seems entirely plausible to me that that's true. It is implausible to me that he wound up in a room with one of the stats bandmates accidentally. Obviously, right? So it's also true that he's seeking out that proximity to Alex contingencies and that relationship with Alex for a reason. And now Alex is not just like I'm you're in my the circle, we're in group together, but he's like, you're not just my sponsor, I don't use that word, telling Larry his brother, he's a god. So Armand hasn't sure this is fine. He's still hold on him. Yeah. And the way he's looking at him when he's on stage reforming, is it to is it to have a way to compromise the band? Is it just about proximity gained in access to list stop? Yeah, I don't know. Listen, one of my favorite sort of like meme templates. So the the scene of Daniel and Armand in the bowling alley was like running around all my socials last night. And on like as soon as Saturday night, when it like dropped on AMC plus and a boost, and I just get served a lot of everything and power stuff. But one of my favorite meme responses to like anything is a Oh sure, blame the guy who's fault it is, you know, like, they're just like all these Armand defenders, but that was like one of my fair Oh sure, blame the guy who's faulted this is. Um, all right, speaking of Daniel, yeah, sloppy thirds for the vampire board day. Oh, just amazing. It's on candy. I mean, yeah, yeah, the way the precaution, especially as Daniel, like reminds us of Anthony Bourdain. Sure. It's really fun to call that out. I also think sloppy thirds is like an incredible phrase to like just slam it all together, just to be, you know, the mind that just comes up with sloppy thirst for the vampire board day and the way that list at stairs down the documentary camera when he says at the vampire board day. And like, it's just really delicious, delicious. All right, the ghost of Nikki or the muse Nikki, if you prefer sticks around in this episode, how is that concept working for you here to have Nikki haunting this episode? I thought that it was effectively deployed here, you know, sort of in little little burst, not like, you know, massive giant sequences in part because we have a lot of list at Gabriella flashback work to do in this episode. Much of which will take place naked and in bed. Looking forward to discussing that shortly. Not not a fan. You were on my mind. You were as you so often are when we watch relatives, fuck each other on the television show ever. It's summer, baby. But the kind of like inversion of a great love, not your first love concept here. How do you interpret that? So because let's not is saying in this stretch, right? He, first of all, right away, we're like, just he's in a period of active wise. Yes. In this stretch because he's like, I welcome it while at the past, stay in the past. That is obviously not true in terms of how he is processing this or struggling to process it. And then the comparison he makes between Gabriella and Nikki, also objectively, we know a lot, right? And we know this in a lot of ways. We know it because she's around now. I am curious, by the way, like when Daniel is going to piece this together because it feels like pooled surprise winning journalists like can't be far away. He's like, why didn't you why aren't you just reaching out with your mind, right? Like he's asking questions that are leading him, I think toward not necessarily, it might be harder for him to piece together the mother. This is, oh, is this your mother who you're pretending didn't take to vampirism and this dead, but like, he should be pretty close to figuring out that was not as her maker. I think Ron and Farrell are already would have figured it out. Glen Greenwell already would have figured it. Daniel, we know you've got some other stuff you're working through, but let's go man. So, you know, he compared to Nikki, right? And he's like, she took like Nikki did, meaning poorly couldn't handle this, right? He's like she wouldn't feed it to carry her to cough and accept her. She wouldn't talk. And then we get got real just like yada yada yada in the carriage, right? Real shame. Yeah. As she still does to this day, every aspect of this heightened god like I get to decide, I'd like it to be Dante's inferno, but not just priest talking about it. Let's actually bring hell to earth, right? She's loving it. Mother's throttling baby. She can't do it. Wait. Yeah. So the idea that then right on the heels of that Nikki's ghost muse, Nikki is like a great love, not your first love and the kind of continued melding of the Nikki Gabriella effect on him in these formative years. So when let's stop, let's talk about Nikki in last week's episode, he said, my first love not a great love. That's how he described Nikki tough for goes Nikki to absorb that. So is he saying that like a great, a great love, not your first love saying that like Gabriella is less that's great love, but not his first love, his first love being Nikki, or is he saying, I was a great love, but I wasn't your first love because your first love was actually your mom. And that's gross. I think that. Yeah. So it felt to me. Yeah, because the wolf wolf wound tending scene comes up in this episode where he's like, we're mother and son, but also, yeah, yeah, yeah, I hand on my inner thigh and I liked it. I liked it. I thought Nikki like painting with his. Oh, later was also he wrote Marius. Yeah, well, there were like three or four Marius references in the so I mean, just direct mentions in this episode. So yeah, I would say notable, uh, oh, species. Okay. How is Daniel's demeanor here post humiliation in episode three for you? Like, uh, you know, he's just falling right back into this interview, interview, uh, situation. He's like, let's see how much we can blame on dear old mom, you know, all the sort of stuff like that. Yeah. But he is also bowling by himself and shouting the name, I just find this like solo bowling. I've never tried it. Maybe it is like, I don't think so. Okay. So group activity in your mind. I think so because like, and maybe maybe I love to have the bad babies who like, I love a therapeutic solo but like, I would go to a restaurant alone. I would definitely know the movies alone. I love to do that. There's a lot of things that like, uh, people feel weird about doing alone that I love to do alone, but like, bowling just because you're like surrounded by like all these other people who are like in their groups on their teams and you're just like, just me. Yeah. And my bowl and ball and my pins. And then he's just shouting the name of other journalists. I'm like, what? What do you think you would shout? If you were to shout names out as you were sort of like, for a second, I was trying to connect to pattern because I was like, I was like, okay, this journalist has this many Pulitzer's. Is he like, say, say, say, nobody see like, saying the number of pins he knocked over is this three time Pulitzer, but I could not make it map. So that was incorrect. But it's just sort of like, he's calling out other journalists names. Are you calling out podcaster names? Yeah, we'll see like, are these what names I don't know heroes are these idols or are they people you're like, well, come on. Yeah, it's us. We're like, we're chasing each other hunt. Yeah. Like, you know, I think that would probably impact my choice. If I were shouting heroes, I'd probably just shout a bunch of the likes. sports writers who I used to, you know, workshop who made me want to get into sports journalism the first place I'd be bowling. I'd probably throw a gutter ball. Now, I'm from Maryland. You have to remember duck pin bowling. Is that the, the small ball? Maryland's a duck pin bowling state. Duck pin, duck pin bowling. Yeah, okay. So you have like the small ball, almost like, I mean, I don't know what the comparative exacts are, like a botched and weight, but almost like more of like a, like a shot put ball, but a little bit. And then yeah, and you in their smaller pins. So you can like hold it on your hand. You don't have the finger holes, but that you could also do the regular bowling. Are they like, I think I know what pin bowling. So it's just like pin bowling. Like, are the, are the pins, like more straight up and down? What's Skittles? I haven't, the candy. Skittles a bowling time? Not familiar. Not familiar. So I would be duck pin bowling. And if I were shouting hero names, I would shout like Thomas Boswell, Gary Smith. You know, I would do that. Probably. What about you? Oh, Skittles is a long game involving pins from which modern bowling is descended. I think it's a UK thing. Did they name the candy after that? Probably. I can't imagine that it's a coincidence. As far as I know, you do not taste the rainbow when you play this game, but who's to say? I feel like I would scream out the name of like musical composers. I'd be like, son, I'm-- That's what you're chasing. Yeah. Hammer, sticky. That's the North Star. I love it. I thought that Daniel we're leaping. [INAUDIBLE] I like stand on a bowling alley alone. It felt so weird in a way that felt right. Like, Daniel's so weird. And I think that he-- I would not find it necessarily credible if he went to like a punching bag to take out his aggression. But I think he's got something he's working through and so being able to hurl a heavy object that he wish was ahead, maybe. Yeah, without consequence. To try to get some of the feelings out, that felt right. And then the idea of that contrast, actually, like it's not a place you think of going solo. So he's very alone. He's feeling extra alone when everybody is sucked out of the space that he's happening at a given moment. We didn't comment on this, but last week when he was-- I think it's last week post interview humiliation. He just attacks someone. Is just like, nosh on someone in alleyway. Yeah. Do you feel like that's the equivalent of like someone just like been cheating a pint of ice cream in front of an open fridge that he's just sort of like, I mean, eating my feelings in alleyway. I mean, maybe, but also like, you know, these vampires have to feed. Well, yeah. But like, there's nothing quite sloppy and just sort of like-- Yeah. Yeah, a little recluse about it. Just like, like, he's eating his feelings, you know? I don't consider it sloppy and unrefined to eat a pint of ice cream out of the freezer. As you know, I consider it my evening routine. I know you do, but you don't stand in front of the open freezer. No, that's what I do at that. That's the added level of just learning. It is brought to me by my doning husband, as I receive it, under my fleece blanket on the couch in a salmon. Maybe you grapes and waving a palm from the first room. But this is version of that, definitely, for sure. The Devil's Road. So that's the name of the set. So the Devil's Road is the name of the section of the book when Gabrielle Enlistat leave Paris, Nikki's still alive in the book version, and seek out the deeper truths of vampirism, its origin, and its history. That's why Marius Arman's Maker gets a couple mentions in this episode. And the last episode when they were in the box and Gabrielle was like, who's older than you? You're maker, Marius, you know it. You're really nailing it. Wow. Yeah, so we get a bunch of Marius hints in this episode. But they're seeking him, they're seeking his knowledge. So that's not sort of the stated intent of the show version, but that's what's happening in the book version. From the book, quote, the Devil's Road gets mentioned a couple times by other vampires before this section of the book. But quote, this comes from an older female vampire to Listat and Gabrielle. You were on the Devil's Road to a great adventure. What right have I to intervene and what the centuries have in store for you? And then Listat, in his inner monologue, is like the Devil's Road, it was the first phrase from any of them that had rung a clarion in my soul. And then Gabrielle's like, Devil's Road, that's on sick. We should do that. Yeah. Mother, son, survivor, adventure. Let's do it. You want to talk about this night that they share and in on the Devil's Road. This seems to be their first official-- The first first. --sexual Congress. That's not what I was going to say. Sexual Congress, but you said fuck, and both are true. It's a mother and a son, fucking. I don't think we need to be delicate about it. Be delicate about it. That's deeply fair. Oh, man. Boy, this was quite something. I was thinking back to our discussion after the premiere. When we witnessed them couple-- There he is. In the Battle of the-- Battle's a Legend of Motel. Yeah. The Battle's a Legend of Motel. Just so. And then, obviously, episode two, we moved on to the Wolf, the Wolf, Moon, Salve application, and talking about-- what is-- how much of this is the grooming and Gabriela's narcissism, and that is all, obviously, I think, present and undeniable. And then, how much of this is genuine need on Listat's part and desire. And so when we first see them, they're at the table, they're doing Heart Beat Math. This was kind of interesting, actually. It's like Listat training. It was literally training his fledgling. That was interesting. When no one trained him. Yes, exactly. And the value of that guiding hand, and then, obviously, as we'll see, how quickly his mother and fledgling ceases to value that, right? It's like, I don't need it. A piece out. I'm gone. I'm abandoned due in the night. The-- Have you ever abandoned me under-- while I'm sleeping under a boat? I promise to leave you a pendant and a wig at a minimum. I think that means it has to me the other way around. You're the one who is more likely to have a pendant and a wig, and then the one to be like, fuck, oh no! And then he give it to me. Where's Joe? I slept in, oh no, where's Joe? I will never leave you under a canoe or-- Or otherwise. Or otherwise. Wow. It's right or the diver's way. Exactly. Um, so they spot this guy at the bar. But this is after also there's the kind of like, you remind me of someone, you know, a local. They're in a local and it's come up. Oh my god, that's it. And she torment him telepathically and listad is like observing and watching this with interest because he can't hear it, right? But it can tell kind of what is happening. And then she sees this hot guy at the bar. It's a holy Saturday, I'm not sure if you've heard. Sharing a plaster, Jesus. It's a incredible line from Daniel about that. Great stuff. So, okay, they're fucking. But like, what do you make-- I love-- so we knew that listad was lying when he was like, relating this experience. But the fact that he like is relating it as if it's something that he did. Like, what Gabriela is doing in the scene is something that he is telling Daniel he did. Yes. I was on the devil's road. I saw a guy with a plaster of Jesus and we had sex. You know, like-- So was he clutching Jesus while you sucked off? Good question, Daniel. Asking the hard-hitting follow-ups as a Pulitzer Prize winner would-- Exactly what Rodin Farrow would do, I think. [LAUGHTER] So listad charges him. Okay, his mother is fucking this-- he had some curly-haired bearded man. Yeah. This is always like a kind of interesting thing when we watch something like this happen. You know, you die in the throes of passion. Good way to go, tough way to go. It's a toss-up. On the one hand, fucking a beautiful vampire. And it seemed like they had been at it for a while and they were at a pivotal moment. On the other hand, they are interrupted at that key moment. And then she does slit his throat and kill him while she comes. She doesn't think he gets to-- No, he does not get to complete, she doesn't. No, I think she got to enjoy and take her pleasure. And he was like, what's going on here? We were really in the middle of something. So listad is like beside himself. I could hear you through the walls. I don't know, I'm dancing, sorry. It is so innocent of that. I was really struck, because this is where he brings up the tending to the wounds. We were mother and son. And it's like, oh, yeah. And then we kind of can hear the incursion of something that has not yet happened for them, right? The kind of crashing of the waves from this lake setting. So the way that we are melding desire and abandonment need and loss for these characters like a cross-time, including obviously in the contemporary setting where he's like, as we'll hear later, she's like, I was gone a week and he's like, it was nine days. Very intense. All of us should be precise about the number of days. And he needs his mommy. Many days he existed before he met Louis, the Ponte Lacan. Exactly. How many days she's been gone? Exactly. The, I love you. She says, like, I love you. I love you. This is Christ. He cries, they kiss. And then I thought there was an interesting expression on her face here. Like, I thought she actually looked as she starts to fuck her son or as her son starts to fuck her. I thought she looked a little surprised. Oh, like a little Alison to just sort of like a-- Not that. Because Alison just like, what have I done? But maybe like, I don't know, I couldn't-- I was trying to read this. It was like, I think Gabriela knows what she's doing and is manipulating him very actively. But almost like she had to confront. And maybe this is part of why she leaves. There's a difference between lust and a deeper like this boy needs his mommy and I am his entire existence. And that's actually not going to work for me. Like, I think she saw in his eyes there that what she is for him. She's never gonna be for him. I mean, definitely on the, you know, you think it's a, I think it's more of like a harbor where they are. Maybe it's, I don't know, there's a lighthouse. Do they have lighthouses on lakes? I don't know, a body of water. - Body of water, a cove. - A cove. - Yeah. - Yes. Love a cove. - Love a cove. - Yeah, those are like actual ocean vessels. - Yeah. - That are torn up. - Yeah, yeah, yeah, tall ships, whatever. Anyway, yeah, the cove, the beach, whatever. When he's like, let's get blood married and do this forever. - Yeah, she's like. - She's absolutely. - Yeah. - So she sees that same look in his eyes here, right? - Yeah, yeah, yeah. - Should we have this great email from my listener. He said, Blake said, when Lesat told her, he heard her banging the Christian through the walls of Feliq, what he was really saying was the same thing. Louis asked him all those years later, aren't I enough? And that's when Gab's twisted the knife, telling him she loved him. He's probably only heard those words from her once or twice before, if ever. Lesat goes into action doing what he thinks he has to do to please her, to keep her. He even tried to put a blood ring on it. But you could literally see Gab's lose her insesty mommy boner on the spot and she was gone in the morning. The only thing she left was a necklace and proof she received the Cunti-S Bob gift 'cause she cut her hair off. And the cutting of her hair, I think, is interesting because this is very much a thing in the book where she dresses as a man and cuts her hair short to look like a man, but her hair grows back and she's devastated out quickly. Her hair grows back because she's like, I can't get rid myself of this trapping of femininity. So she just keeps cutting it. But this line, we get pre-mother and son-fucking at the table, not a wife, not a mother, not a woman. What then? I'm a fever that comes in the night and kills by the morning. But this rejection of her role as a woman, as a mother, as a wife, as a Marquis, perhaps. And then her oppressive absence in the modern storyline, haunting this entire episode, just sort of like he's constantly checking his phone, where is she, where is she, what is she doing? How long has it been, when are you gonna meet me, where are you gonna meet me, where are you? I hope you're to quite ear with a view of the cell phone, tower you burned down is incredibly good once again. But yeah, to your point, on this cove, we get this thesis statement of what she wants, right? Which is out in the world feeding in the streets an evil that answers goodness. Shall we do it? Shall we scorch the mortal world, decimate it. Brothers and pale brothers, mothers throttling their bays, all writhing on the ground till no light remains, no hope of light, and we, the devil's rule. Together as Dark Monarchs intertwined for all eternity. Yeah, it's worrying. It's worrying. Is this the thesis statement of the great conversion? Yeah, I think so. And I felt like the way that again, it was edited to, you know, he is reflecting on the violence of the moment in real time as he is like flashing back and we are accessing these core memories, right? And it felt like he was sort of clocking her. And it's not like it's a secret, you know, she will come to him and the tour bus at the end of the episode and say, the great conversion. Just so, exactly, right? And like, why don't we stoke that? Yeah, why don't we fuel it? Why don't we be present for the converted? And the way that she's using him, as she always has, as she did with the Wolf Hunt, to be like the powerful masculine force that she cannot be. She cannot whip the votes towards the reaction version or whatever, but she's got this like hot charismatic son who she can use and manipulate in order to do that work for her. And this is like a, this is a change from the book, this idea that like Gabrielle is at all interested in the great conversion. And this more explicit shading of her relationship with him is like overtly manipulative. I think they just made it crystal clear on the side of this episode. And like, when you hear Sam read talk about this episode or talk about LeStock's relationship with Gabrielle, this entire season, Gabriella, you know, that he's just sort of like, he's being manipulated into it. That this sexual relationship with her is not really what he wants from her. He just wants like mother and closeness. And this is the only thing he knows how to do to get it, you know? And that she knows is the thing that she can do to, you know, manipulate, make him malleable to her quims. I think this guy wants to fuck his mom. I think it's there in the, in the, in the brew. It feels like undivided. He's really repulsed by it, but I don't think it is, he is actually anti-procluses for sure. He is actually like a little repulsed by it, but he's not like, he's not doing it unwillingly, but he's also just sort of like, if it were entirely up to him, he wouldn't do it, I think. I think his, if he had his druthers, he would just, they'd like be cradling each other against her bosoms, right? And the fact that he could, but certainly nude. It's like a real, like a real amen in the brothel sort of. Exactly. There is some mother's milk nearby, and a deet to cycle. The, like, the fact that the first time we watch them actually have sex, she is still, it's not, it's not even just that he has interrupted her having sex with somebody else because of the jealousy, right? I need you so fully and I want you to need me. Like, we need to be in love for each other. That's what I want, right? She is still, when they start having sex, she is still panting. From her sexual encounter with this other guy. It's like mere seconds have passed. So that is so warped and befiled, but kind of tells us everything we need to know about him seeking to take her back from anything that isn't him. And that look on her face there, like, okay, I see that you need me in a way that is not what I want. The wedding ring, the blood ring connection there is, yeah, they just, they want something different out of each other. And I think that both of the things that they each want, it's all wrong. What's so interesting about it I think is the comp with Louie because it's like, what is happening with Louie and Regina is wrong. I think kind of undeniably. What did you say? Wrong. It's a brave take, I know. Just like watching Lestat fuck his mom is wrong. The fact that Gabriela is thinking kind of at scale, right? Thinking in this like a mass way. And for Lestat, for Louie, it is, whether it's the ghost of, of Nikki, you know, the fact that we pan out on the tour bus if you had one Gabriela is there weaponizing him and his need and his longing. And we pan out, we see his ghosts in an episode where Louie is chasing his ghost. It's this undeniable, like, you know, they are both kind of enveloped in the dome of like the one thing they need. But then what impact does that have on everybody else around them? And you and I would suggest therapy? First and foremost. Secondly, why don't we find it in each other? Louie and Lestat's great idea. That's all I want. OK. Anything we want to say about this Arman Day No Bullying scene that we've already kind of gone through this, I titled this section "Devil's Minion" because this is the name, as I think I've mentioned, maybe in the book's further section, of the chapter in the Queen of the Dam that is about Daniel and Armont and their bond and their relationship. So "Devil's Minion" is sort of the name of this ship. And a lot of fans were very excited to see sort of, you know, this gather seam inside of this episode where, as Assad's Aman who plays, Armont has said, like, he's telling the truth. When he tells Daniel it wasn't love for Louie, it was love for you that blinded me in Dubai, so that is true. That's a fact. Is it also manipulative of Daniel? I think to your point, Arman can be working multiple agendas at any given time. But this is the devil's minion. And when the cast was asked like their favorite couple of the season, they all said Daniel and Armont. Yeah. So here we are. I'm loving it. I think it's fascinating. It's a deep and rich psychological text. You know, another father inside of the season. Exactly, it's like it's not blood DNA incest, but like, it becomes a version of that for vampires as well. You know, it's just like, Louie doesn't call him dad or daddy, but like, the fact that Daniel's like, let me lean into it. Yeah. I thought that the other thing I guess that's worth just quickly noting that it's not specific to this ship and their relationship, but that does transpire in this scene is that when Daniel asks Armont why he's here, Armont kind of issues this warning. And you know, we've been talking about like the very heavy presence of all of these harbingers across various different characters, as in scenes. So he says, you're courting great danger with Listad. Him, he's just an asshole. They're nearly enough of us now. Each of body and night, each churning one a week, more deaths than birth, the great conversion. It's happening, Daniel. Here we go. And he's going to lead it and get us all killed. The great conversion is like, that's established at this point, but he's going to lead it unwittingly. That's what Gabriella seems to want. Wittingly at a certain point, at what point are you complicit enough if you like know you're being manipulated by this person, right? And kind of get us all killed. Or at least like, lose an eye at a foot. You know what I mean, like at the end of the day. Couple of things here also. Armon's accent sounds thicker, like more French in this bowling scene than it did to me, like in the Dubai sequences where he had like largely smoothed out his accent. So I don't know what that's about. It's either an actor choice or a character choice or I don't know what it is. And then your blood sucks line is very curious when Daniel's talking to Armon about like having not gifted him anything. Because Armon has extremely powerful blood, actually, like extra. extremely, extremely, because Mario has his maker as an extremely, extremely powerful vampire. And canonically, Daniel is the only fledgling that Armand has ever made. And this is why it's like so special, it's like Armand is actually kind of anti making more vampires. So the fact that he turned Daniel, and we don't even know the full story of this flight from Newark and what happened there, we don't, we don't know that one story. Tough straight. Newark here. Yeah. But, um, but like, you know, what, what is so fascinating about Daniel that Armand sort of broke his rule to turn Daniel into his fledgling and, uh, and what has Daniel not yet unlocked about how powerful it would be to actually be the fledgling of the vampire Armand. Right. Because that would actually be a huge, like, similar to like Louie, like, Listot is a powerful vampire. And like, you know, and he's got the blood of Akasha and him, you know, and like, what that means in terms of Louie being turned. So there are, you know, we're talking about like vampire royalty to a certain degree. Um, I thought on the vampire royalty and like, how powerful is Armand front and also the Akasha teases, nicely all entwined and put together on the, uh, in the Armand Listot blood shower scene because we get the, we're pairing a voice over as we so often are this season with what is happening in the scene, faded wallpaper, waiting for lights to dim so it could peel off and suffocate you in the dark. This is Listot's description of Armand. He would do more damage than the queen ever did. Amen. Amen. Okay. What's the, what's the worst insult levied toward Armand? Is it the faded wallpaper? Is it fuck? I kind of like fuck loud. Fuck loud. Is it? We're not saying via verse. Big boss is a total blah, blah. He, his kisses put me in a coma. No stuff. Or is it Louie de Pontelac? Yeah. Let's go say colorless flavorless dull, dull, dull, nice, dull, weak, dull, month, dull, as fuck suffocation by the world's softest, beige, pillow. It's still that one. Yeah. Listot and Louie both choosing like interior deck, like boring interior decorations to like describe Armand's presence, faded wallpaper and beige pillow is absolutely brutal. Really tough stuff. Oh man. Fuck loud. Kill me though. I love that. I'm going to keep fuck loud as part of my like every day. Yeah. Every day speech. Yeah. Great stuff. Yeah. Who's a fuck cloud? Yeah. I won't be commenting. We're not incriminating ourselves in that way. The big boss performance. Again, we mentioned the pigtails, the makeup, the the blood kicked on the neck, uh, yeah. This whole thing, the him talking about him throwing the book around, both Louie and Listot are talking about the book in serious ways in this episode. My old Haunt very fair. That's right. It's a call out. So does the out magazine. Um, this is about how Listot describes himself, toxic bitch, anguishly attached, that he starts prancing show pony with a person personality disorder called Listot. I just think fantastic writing, I mean, pretty, pretty good summation. Just like Listot has maybe been to some therapy as opposed to Louie, you know what I mean? But it's not, I saw his performance in the face of all the like, this pigtailed shoulder Chevy beat down and then he gets is just like incredible shit. And this is two episodes in a row that Listot has brutally humiliated someone. It's Daniel last week and it's our mod this week. Will this go well for him? I don't think so. Well, well, well, if it isn't the consequences of my own action sort of thing. Yeah. And I think you pair, what's interesting to think about right now with how the, because you know, after we finished talking about this one, three episodes left, as you said, that's a lot. Now, three hours is a lot of room to tell a good story, but like we're nearing the end game of this season. It is very sad. What if they don't get another season? I'm very sad. Oh, is that like in the, I don't know, in the brew? Could be. Yeah. Well, that's not acceptable. Let's not allow that. Okay, great. It's not happening. It's not happening. There. We did it. The show will be back. You pair these really like personal grievances and slights, which lead people to carry a resentment that calcifies and then, you know, these cycles. I'm not sure if you've heard but Sid, we get Sid. Pair that with this. Whatever is happening in the wider world and you have like, so wait, like, it was interesting to think about the idea that Armand could do more damage than the Queen. Yeah. Akasha, who we've been like prepped to be so scared of. Yeah, and then it's like, well, okay, so is it Column A? Because he's so personally wounded by these personal slights and attacks, right? Is it because every episode has included somebody shouting casually or in some sort of scrawled on their conspiracy while Armand told the truth? Yeah. And the fact that we saw, so I was thinking about this because you have like the Detroit Fang gang, like Armand told the truth, you've got these more kind of like organized champions of that idea. But then the one that really now in hindsight stands out even more, I think, is like the bookshop where just like instantly that's what gets its claws into people, right? They've read the book they're talking about and they're like, Armand, fuckless that. Do you think Armand? Do you think Armand is just like setting those psychic waves out into the universe? Because he is the most manipulative like mind-gifted person, maybe. So he's just sort of like subliminally like out there just being like, Armand told the truth. Intentionally? Armand was right. Intentionally? Oh. This has just come off him in waves. Like because he's telling the truth when he tells Daniel and again, the actor has said this. When he tells Daniel, I don't know what's happening when everyone goes away, it's just the two of them. Yeah. He genuinely doesn't. Right. Right. And this is like, well, he's never made a vampire before, so like he's never experienced this before. Um, let's talk about Louis and Regina and men will do anything of them and go to therapy. Shout out Regina saying, do I take my tampon out in front of the podcaster? It's just amazing. Really good stuff. I'm incredible. Love that our profession has become synonymous with like loser, uh, people who crash in your apartment. He's only been there since Tuesday. So this is a show invented storyline. This whole Regina thing is show invented that book readers have no idea what to make of this. Okay. Uh, to keep Louis, he who licenses and franchises the night, one of my favorite lines of the season masterful incredible in the mix, not to mention someone who looks like Claudia, right? So we get these two actors who, who get to make, you know, play out this very juicy, complicated, horrible toxic scenario. Um, some of the Daniels said to Louis and Dubai when, when they're doing the interview, he says to Louis, still a pimp paying a whore to sit in a room with you and talk. So like, that's what Danny was and this is something that we met, Louis. He would pay a sex worker, not to have sex with him, but just to like listen to him. So this is something that he needs. So like, what is this with Regina? If not, that him throwing money at a young, oh, young compromise woman. And he's like, I mean, yeah. I love Louis. Same. And I am like on his side. But when he's like, hey, I've looked up your criminal records, I found your only, I found your only fans. That's not good. And I can make all that go away if you just do this thing with me. And she's like, pour myself a new yellow dress and send me a real app. And he's like, no. And she's like, no. Right. You know? Yeah. And then the, like, the, the change in the air when she, after he, yeah, after he has guided her to read the book, understand what he needs exactly who he is, who Claudia is, who he's missing. And she impersonates Claudia, and it's like, woo, I thought, like, so the fact that she kind of initially mistakes his intentions, right? You know, my ass isn't on the menu, but it's still cause gay, gay, gay. And then you move into this like, well, what is the difference? Right. Yeah. Actually. Yeah. What is bus fare? You know, that's a thousand bucks. That's bus fare for you. Okay. The bartering good negotiation skills, Regina, I would say 500,000, I would say you could have charged more. She looked him up and says that he's the like 566th richest man in the world. It's you started a million, a million, you start at a million. Okay. Did me more. Exactly. Okay. Exactly. Though I suspect this won't be the last negotiation between these two. This is just, it's sad because yeah, I also love Louis. And I feel for him deeply and the fact that this like trauma and this loss and this grief, it has such a hold on him, right? And that his regret has such a hold on him. And this is something that Jacob said is like, what's going on with Jacob Anderson who plays Louis the best, something that he said is like, killing Bruce didn't do it. It didn't exercise the demon for him. He's just sort of like, he thought he would find some relief in doing this and the paint is still there. Right. Like, having led Claudia to her, not being able to save her in the first place, put her in this position. Even though Lestat, like, you know, was warned about Nikki, warned Louis. This is a bad idea to turn Claudia into a vampire in the first place. And the fact that he could not keep her safe in a life and happy and the extreme guilt that he feels about that. And is there a way via this fucked up situation that he's found himself in? And again, I am still curious if this, if this woman actually looks like as much like Claudia as he thinks she does. Right. I'm really curious if, if Lestat or if someone else, like, shows up in the body, if our mom is like, that's not, you know, if we see her from their point of view, and it's a different actress, and it's just sort of like, that's not what she looks like, you know, that'll be fascinating. - Fascinating. I, it's interesting too, because given how much of the Claudia stretch of season two in Paris at the theater was like playing characters, it adds an extra layer to this that is like, so I find really captivating and disturbing. Louis, so when he was describing the initial glimpse, right, and I saw this person, I thought, - Come on out of the subway. - Yeah. - And then he's like, he says, Jason Ghosts, right? Like, that makes it so much more tragic, I think that he knows and understands and has decided, like, has made an active choice and like, to do this anyway. And like, leaves multiple times in a way that like, you could see him tell himself, I'm not coming back, that's the last time. And then he just keeps coming back. - Yeah, and like, what he's putting on Regina already, like when he's like, it's been a couple days, he missed your shift, you know. - I've been here since 130. - I'm worried. - Yeah. - Like, I've been here since 130, waiting for you. - Yeah, and like, you could, I certainly come to care about a stranger very quickly, but that's not what this is. He is immediately transposing his feelings for Claudia onto this other person. It's just like, it's very disturbing. - Seek help. - Yeah. - Seek help. - Very, very, very disturbing. - All right, an assassination attempt in a record deal. We've already talked about this sort of like, final backstage tantrum from Listaat, but again, incredible writing when he's like, describing the like, what, nipple, heartening, like, - Prick popping. - Prick popping, there it is, okay. I just wanna shout out that Muse Nikki has a backstage pass on which is like, really cracked me up. He's in his like, curated costume with the bloody stump, but he's got a backstage pass on, maybe really laugh. Whoever was on set was like, we should put a backstage pass on him, top tier work. - The fact that he wants his mother to hear, it's been 12, I left 12 minutes ago and they're still shouting for me. - I'm more of the evaderation than it is, than love. - And it's like, she's always tried to wield that against him, like post wolf killing. She's like, they're here to worship you. - Yeah. - She's always, and so again, like, there's a level, I think, of awareness that the characters possess of what they are doing, what their vulnerabilities are, right? And what the kind of like pitfalls are. And then the other characters unlock something about that. They're like, kind of helpless to prevent the chokehold again. And like, the fact that in such, 'cause this is all really in the like, final 10 minutes of the episode, he calls her, he's like, look, they worship me, they recognize my value. You don't. And then she comes in and is like, don't you wanna be worshiped? Look at what you've done to help these voices. You hear them. But also between sandwiched between that. Is a shooter, is someone shooting him. - Yeah. - And in episode one, like, shows up to shoot the shot to expose the truth of him. And we get this mention at the beginning of the episode, sort of like a manifesto on a computer in the library. So I assume that it's this guy's manifesto that he's talking about. But yeah, the vampire Messiah, which is how Daniel refers to him at the beginning of this episode when he comes sort of, like, what does the vampire Messiah owe? His audience or whatever. But he gets the stigma, right? He gets the shot through the, right through the hand, sort of moment, yes. I was thinking about Jack O'Connell in the bone temple. Anyway, aren't we always? - Always. I'm still at the bone temple. Lostak can rock a tracksuit. There's no question. - Oh yeah. And he's already got the blonde hair. - Exactly. - Anyway, I just think that, you know, this is part of the whole fandom worship frenzy thing is like this, you know, this is what happened to John Lennon. Like this is what happens sometimes when you put yourself in this position of worship and in this damaged society, we live in what some people do with that is, is extremely fucked up, but they've got a record deal. - Yeah. - That's least throughout this episode. I thought the party scene with the aforementioned year at line and stuff like that was shot very like this is spinal tap, sort of set up. But yeah, this like, very dorky like, you know, music exact guys here and it's just sort of like, I get it, I get what you're doing, sort of thing. Anyway, he's, this is presumably what we're seeing at the end of the episode is them starting to record the album. - Yeah. - Yeah. I thought it was. It was an interesting, so the shooting, the manifesto, when we get the reading of the manifesto on the news after the shooting. It was an interesting way to like, root us in just a truth of the story, which is that our heroes are bad, like the, from a certain point of view. Yeah, it was a real like, okay, because this is a mass shooter, this person is on this horrific, awful thing and is undeniably in every respect, reprehensible and deplorable and of course like, how can you not think of real life tragedies? And this is awful, right, it's horrible. There's not a single person watching, hopefully, who is like, that guy hasn't figured out. It's like, this is a broken person who has done something terrible. Period, right? The thing he says about vampires. - Where they're food. - Yeah. - Is they feed, siphoning away our vitality in order to extend their own natural existence, but if we are their fuel, are we not also their strength? That is incredibly worrying then, because like you have on the, you pair the idea of the great conversion and the masses and all these people who are like, that seems good, that seems fun, turn me into a vampire. And then the people who are gonna hear that and say, wait a minute. Yeah, the people you guys left to watch every week on your television show where the people you left to listen to in your band, whatever's happening here, we can't just let the vampires turn and eat us, right? So then like, what army rises up to challenge the vampires? - Right, but like, if your frontman is Listat versus this guy, - And this is what Gabriela wants, right? - It's just hell and violence unleashed all around. - I think also something that Tim Armand and whoever else is against the great conversion is the keyboard and should be thinking about is something we talked about, we talked about Pluribus and the way in which like in the show Pluribus spoil for the show, spoiler seriously skip ahead, they're like eating people, right? And so they were talking about, we got a lot of emails from people who are like, I don't know epidemiologists or whatever, your profession needs to be to understand this, who are like, this is an unsustainable food chain. And so like with the great conversion, like that's an unsustainable, like if you turn to many vampires, - What do you need? - What are you gonna eat? - Right. - And you can't sustain it. And the earth can't support it, even if you have like these blood farms, it's like not, it can't pan out that way. Something to think about in your plan, Gabriela. Okay, book spoilers? - Yeah. - Do you, last Gabriela question book spoilers? - Yeah, do you think at this point in the story, there's anything about her that feels redeemable? 'Cause it feels purely evil. - It does, and this is a choice that they've made to take this. I would say exists in the gray character in the books and make her more of a villain, which is an interesting choice to make when there are like so few female characters in this show. And like Claudia's dead. Regina, we have some questions about what was going on there. Akasha is of course this big villain who's like looming over and stuff like that. - Yeah, I don't, Christine though. - Yeah, Christine and Tuckokey, hold on it down. - Hold on it down. - Holding it down. - Hold on it down. - Something to aspire to, but I'm just sort of like, interesting to take this like one female main character, female, especially since Claudia's dead and like turn her into like a more overt villain, I think is an interesting choice to make. - Yeah, and whether the villainy is like directed in a very personal way, like getting to witness the kind of first abandonment. - Yeah, so painful and you see the effect that that has almost not still. And then this just declaration of evil intent. Like this is what I would like to bring into the world. - Yeah. - These are the horrors I would like to imagine. - I would like you to help me, doesn't it sound great? But even then I don't think I want to spend the next 50 to 100 years let alone beyond doing it with you, just you. - No. - It's concerning, is Listaat going to be able to stop her? - Is his need for her? - He wants to. - He wants to. - He wants to. You know, what level of like, what ability does he have to check himself and to check her? Once the clarity sets in that this is what, what is driving forces she's here? - Yeah, but I was happening around them and all of the effects that it has. - I don't have any answers for you. - It's worrying. But again, they've been telling us it's the very beginning of this season that worrying things were a foot. So it feels like the promise is gonna be fulfilled. - All right, books, spoilers. - Yes. (upbeat music) - It's so jaunty. - And then it gets so evil. - I just really like saying the great conversion. - Again, I think you've nailed the accent, which I would just pause it. - Chocolate. - You shouldn't be able to. - Chocolate. - Yeah. - All right, let's give him chocolate. - All right, the devil's road connection to Akasha who says, upon waking at the end of the book, The Vampire List Ad. And it's a quote that someone says earlier in the book and she says it again later. From my stone pillow, I've drained dreams of the mortal world above. I've heard its voices, its new music as lullabies, as I lie in my grave. I've envisioned its fantastical discoveries. I've known its courage and the timeless sanctum of my thoughts. And though it shuts me out with its dazzling forms, I long for one with the strength to roam it graciously, to ride. the devil's road through its heart. - Okay. - And she thinks that's the stat. Okay, interesting. Also, maybe I should have said this earlier, but like, you know when when Lestat's like Nicky, my first love and not a great love and Daniel's like, really, you buried yourself underground for a hundred years after he died, I actually think he buried himself underground for a hundred years after his mommy left him. That's actually why he buried himself underground for a hundred years. And again, this is like, I believe this is a show edition because they did like the time difference. You know, so they needed to put like Lestat, sort of like putting a soka in the world between worlds. Just sort of like put them on ice for a little while. In this version of the story, it's because Gabriel left him. I think, I don't know, we'll see what happens next week. The name Regina means queen. A few people appointed this out. Does this character have anything to do with a caution? Our listener Dan said, I've been loving the vampire Lestat, just a fantastic show after this latest episode, number four, I had a thought. Is there any way that Regina, a new Claudia, will end up being or being connected to Akasha? I know it sounds crazy, but Akasha is definitely coming. And some sort of connection seems like a better reveal than introducing a whole new character. Plus her name does mean queen as always, a theory held loosely. Shout out Dan for holding his theory loosely. But like, is this Akasha in a different form? Is she being controlled by Akasha? Is it similar to sort of like, our mon having Alex is a way to get to Lestat, is this a way for Akasha to get? I don't, I don't know the answer, but Regina is a very interesting name choice for this show invented character. Yeah. It does not feel like it could be coincidental, I don't know. I don't know the answer. Interesting. Interesting. Okay. Huh. Last night, at least from Mary Beth. On the Daniel death front. And so Eric Bogosian was on the official podcast this week talking about the host Lizzie asked him about his, the death, Oh, man. Yeah. And he said, this is something that Rollin has promised me. A good death. That I get like a really cool death. Okay. And I don't, I couldn't tell by the way that he and Rollin were talking about it, if that means they're doing, and again, this is, this would be a book departure. But like, again, if it's something they're doing this season. But like, that like, this is something he promised me sounded very like future. Maybe. Yeah. And Rollin was like, we have to figure out how to execute it. So I feel like it isn't this season. But like, it feels very Harrison Ford is Han Solo. I'll come back as Han Solo, but you got to kill me. Like Bogosian's like, I'll do a couple more seasons of your vampire show, but then you got to kill me. Yeah. Sure. And give me a good death. Yeah. Possibly. But on that front, Mary Beth wrote in to say, this exchange from Daniel and Raglan in season two. Daniel says, can you protect me? Raglan says, we're being killed? No. We're particularly poor at keeping our assets alive. Daniel says, I'm not an asset. Raglan says, you messaged me. I showed up. The macro was better last time. Daniel says, I want to get out alive. Raglan says, you want a book. Daniel says, I want both. Raglan says, you fear our mom. You should fear the other one, meaning Louis, which is very interesting. I don't know what that means. And then after I've seen with Louis and our mom, we come back to Raglan and Daniel talking about the book. And Raglan says, I think you've been masterful, I think. If I could swap buys with you, I'd be running the order by now. And a lot of people just thought that was a fun little throwaway. Like the body, the body thief, sort of Raglan hint. But is it a more directed at an actual, like, Daniel will be involved with the body thief, sort of plot line? I don't know. If it's just like a fun little easter egg for fans, Raglan just being like, if I could swap bodies with you, or if it's actually Daniel will definitely be involved in that body swap plot, I don't know. Interesting. But fun, to think about. Interesting. We've yet to have an episode where we're not reminded that a cheque stat exists. So what do you think, if LeSat was so publicly shot multiple times, like, yeah, what are they going to do with that? Prosthetic wounds, maybe, or on cheque stat? Because that was part of it. Part of it was like, he's going to be fine, because he's a vampire, like, a way to prove it. Yeah. So if he shows up, and he's fine, I don't know. Any other questions, comments, or concerns? This Regina Akasha thing is interesting. I know. I don't-- again, I'm in theory-- I'm in full theory territory, because this is not a book thing. I guess my main question, honestly, like, what if someone else shows up, and it looks like the actress they've cast to play Akasha? Akasha, you know? Well, yeah, it's interesting. All of those possibilities are interesting. Is it Akasha? Is it, like, a pawn that Akasha is using? And then what would that mean? Because, like, trying to destabilize and control Louis to what end? And that is a particular-- to follow it with this Mary Beth reminder, the-- you should share the other one. Like, who is more valuable to gain access to through the other? And, like, I guess, just also when now that Louis has gone off to the brick and bacon, like, when is she going to get back-- Yeah, into the main plot. Yeah, into the main plot. How long? I hope so. Because it feels like we only have three episodes left. I think to your point of, like, what are other characters going to see, even if Regina looks exactly like Claudia to everyone else. There still needs to be a moment of reckoning, I think, quite soon, where somebody probably will stop. I would guess. Says to Louis, this is not OK. Yeah, like, maybe they have noticed for each other. Louis, like, stop fucking your mom. And he's, like, stop stalking this girl who looks like our dead daughter. I mean, it would be helpful feedback all around, I think. Also, group therapy? Compost therapy would be great for those therapy. I would love it. All right, that has been episode 4. I'm really excited for episode 5. I do believe we're getting Marius in the next episode. So that is very exciting. Love to meet a legendary vampire. Thank you, too, Jacob Cornette, Carlos Churaboga, Scott Lee, our Jenna Wrinkle Powell, and Jomi Adinaron. We will be back with our House of the Dragon episode, too, deep dive. I'm very excited for that. Can't wait. Thank you to you, Mallory Ruben. Thank you to you, Mike Queen. You're my maker, and I'm your fledgling, you know? No, you're my queen. I love you. I'll see you soon. Bye.