The Untold Lore of Isabel Larosa

Love should feel easy. It shouldn't feel like you have to convince someone to like stay or like hold on to something so tight or otherwise it's gonna leave. I think it, yeah, it just gives you this like false perception of like what, caring about somebody should be. The amount that I, like I can care and the amount that I feel like I can like want to hold on to something, it like does feel violent. Like it, like it takes a toll on you. If it isn't an immediate yes, it's a no. If you don't know that they're gonna choose you, it's a no. You literally last week just got off tour with Madison Beer. I did. How was that? Crazy. Thomas was just saying to me the other day. He was like, thank God for our viewers. Isabel, welcome to Nikki and Knight. You are that bitch. I'm obsessed with your work. Thank you so much. I'm so excited to have you here today. I'm so excited to be here. Oh, thank you. I mean there are certain artists where I feel like the second you hear a song, you like instantly understand the world that they're building. Yeah. You know, for you, it's like dark and cinematic, a little haunting. Exactly. But there's also this like existential yearning and love. You know what I mean? And I just, I don't know, like I love the way that you balance those two things. I think it's so, so cool that your music can simultaneously be very, very dark, but also very, very feminine. Yeah. Well, I feel like that's, I love music like that and I've like grown up listening to artists like that feel like they embody that kind of thing. And so I feel like that's, that's like how I want to feel when I listen to music. And so I've like searched for that a lot and I, I don't know, I feel like by instinct, that's just kind of like the direction I go in. Totally. And I think there's, it's like becoming its own sort of like subgenre of pop, I think, or alternative pop, I guess you would say like, you know, like I think of like you and Nessa and Madison and the Maria's or like Billy's first album. You don't even use like very like dark eerie. It's like, but, but it does feel feminine and it feels like it has almost a softer side to it. I feel like it's something that's interesting is like it can be softer and also feel like dark and kind of like, I don't know, powerful the right word, but like, you know what I mean? I just think it's, it's got like a bite to it. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, or you could like bang your head a little, but you could also like, yeah, yeah. That's so interesting. How do you like feel you can balance those very opposite things in one song? I don't know. I think that one of the things that is a through line for me is I think vocal style. And I think that like, you can look as a lot of this my stuff is like production wise kind of like it does hit you, you know, and it's like, it's more like, it's not super like soft and flowy all of the time, but I think if the the vocal style is softer, it kind of brings in a more like feminine element. Instead of it being like, every element is hard hitting. Right. And then it's like just, yeah, I think if you kind of blend those two things, it's interesting. That is really interesting. I also think like the visual identity really sells that. Yeah. It's like you in a dress, but like running through a field at night. Exactly. It's like, I'm in a dress, but I'm doing something fucking weird. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I feel like your sound is very cinematic. Yeah. Like there's like a lot of drama to it. Did you feel, do you feel like inspired by film? Oh my God. So much. And I like, I just love. I think that there was like a period in like freshman year of high school, or I like didn't know. I don't know. I was like unsure about music for some reason. And I, I was like, well, I'm just going to go into like film obviously, because like, that's what I love. And like I, the fact that I get to then blend the two of them, you know what I mean? Because like, that's such a huge part of what I look for. And like what I love, I mean, I feel like I grew up with Melanie. And like, that was so like, I didn't, I hadn't seen another artist with like that kind of visual identity before. And so like, that was so crazy to me. It was like very influential. That's so cool. Was there like a specific film ever that you felt like really drawn to or that like shaped your visual identity? Honestly, it's not like a movie, but the first season of Stranger Things, like when I watched that, it was just so like, I don't know, it was crazy to me because I was like, holy shit, it's so well done. And also, I think it reminded me of like where I grew up. And so like, that was really big. I mean, first season of euphoria, first couple seasons, really, but especially the first one. Yeah, the Petra Collins, but oh my God. She did go, dude. She really is. Yeah, I literally, the episode that will come out right before this is all about you for, yeah. Really? Oh my God, we're so perfect. So it's just so beautifully done. I'm trying to think of movies, but those are like the two things that I mean. No, totally. And also, I want to go back to where you're saying where you're from. Yeah. Because I saw like, you're from Maryland. I am. I'm from Virginia. No way. Yeah. I'm from Fairfax County, Virginia. Oh my God, wait, yes. So I suppose East Coast Gals. Yeah, it's a lot of time in the DMV. I love. So that's, but I want to know, like, how did you go from a girl in Maryland to being like, I want to be a pop star? Like, how does that transition happen? I don't know. I, I don't think it, I think, I don't, like, I don't think it's just like, oh, like shit. Now I'm like doing this. And now I'm going to be like this. I don't know. I think it's like, it was really gradual. I've always done, I've always been in music to like some extent. I grew up like singing just like jazz standards with my dad. Oh wow. And my brother and I would like perform it open mic nights. And I literally was like the most nervous person on stage ever. Yeah. Like, I literally, I would mess up a lyric and cry on stage. Oh. So like, I think that I just, as I got older, I, I, like, I found artists like Melanie finding Ariana was like, oh my god. Yeah. Like, I just was so obsessed with her and like the dangerous woman era. I feel like I was like, oh, I want to do this, but like in a way that feels like, I don't know, me, like, I don't feel like I, at my core, I feel like I will always be alternative. But I like, I just, I love the pop world so much. It's been fun to like, I don't know, find a way to meet in the middle. Yeah. And I think that's also like the beauty of it all of like, as an artist, it changes and evolves over over time all the time. Yeah. You know, and like, I think when even like an Ariana Grande, like when you look back at somebody with that wide of a discography, you end up like loving that they have very defined eras. Totally. And I think like in it, it feels like, oh my god, like, I can't do something so different, but then retroactive. You can. Yeah. It's always cool to look at. And I felt that very much about this EP when listening to it all because it's like, this is like a lot, I feel like softer than your last album was. It like, I feel like it is. And it isn't at least to me. Like, it's, it's felt different to me distinctly. And like, I feel like, topically, it's felt distinctly like a change. Also, and I don't know, I feel like in the last album, there were some songs that were like more personal to me, but a lot of it was kind of like, not, I'm not, like, not a facade, because that's not true. But like, almost like a, I don't know, like sexier. Yeah. And I just like, and I love that so much. Right. But this feels like all of the songs are just like so personal to me. Yeah. So like, I don't know. I was just like, I'm just gonna write like actually about what I feel. And so that, yeah. That's so cool. Yeah. It was fun. I mean, even like the fact that like this project opened with just strings. Yeah. Yeah. I was like, I instantly was like, whoa, like, this is so much different than, you know, when you think of, like, I'm yours or favorite, you know what I mean? Like, muse or something. It's just like, I also think like the way that we approached like formatting the songs felt different. And like, I think we were kind of following like a, just a certain pattern of writing songs. And I think like this EP feels distinctly different from that. And so it was just like very fun to experiment with like, stuff I haven't done, you know? Yeah. There's like one that's like, almost very like, death tonesy and like very like, you know, hard hitting. And like, I've been wanting to do that for so long, but always kind of felt like I couldn't. So yeah. It's funny that you think that you kind of do that. It feels like so in line with your world and everything. I just like, never, I literally, I think it's just I'm more of a fan of that kind of stuff than my brother is. And so I literally was like, Thomas, give me this one. Please. That's no fight. Literally one of the questions I had was going to ask about like making you make all your music with your brother. Yeah. And always have. Yeah. That is crazy. Do you guys fight ever? Everyone asks is I'm like, no, we really don't fight. Like, I don't even remember the last time I got into like an actual argument with him. Like we don't, we've never, but we've never really fought. Like we've always gotten along very well. And like, I think I, it's, I've never known anything but working with him. And so like, it's, I think it would be different if I like, if we had never worked on music and then we just started work, like then we would definitely fight. But like, you know what I mean? But I, I'm just like, that's what I'm used to. - I know. - Yeah, and I imagine it's very nice to have someone who like deeply knows you as a human. - Yeah. - Like not just is familiar with your work or is the XYZ songwriter a big producer, but is like, I know the story you're talking about in the song and I know the person and like can help you capture that energy you're like chapter of your life. - Distinctly, I think that's what I feel like he's always in my corner and he knows what's going on in my life. Very well, and he knows me very well. And I think that like that is really interesting 'cause I feel like then I don't feel uncomfortable like saying things that are vulnerable because it's like he doesn't think about it. Like it's just like, that's, you know? And I think that it's like, I always like, it's he's like built it, you know? Like I was just like, I don't have to like find someone that I work so well with 'cause that's what you generally have to do is like you have to find your person that you like match with on a creative level. I'm like, he's just like built in. Like I just already like got him. - That's right, you respond at the same place. - We respond on the same place. - At the same place and now I'm just like, okay, great, you're stuck with me for life. - I know it. - Even though other choice. - And it's very endearing that he even like performs with you. - Yeah, I don't, I was saying reason. I don't even know if I've ever done a show without him, which is wilds. - I mean, I feel like that happens a lot. I remember in like the Billy documentary, she said that she had never performed without Phineas with this album. - Which is crazy. - And I'm like, she didn't make any music 'cause it's 2017. - I'm like literally like that's a word. - That's a word, yeah. - No, it's crazy. I mean, I don't know like, 'cause he has his own artist project so like there might be a time where like I'm touring and he's touring and then like, you know, that'll be interesting. But at least for the moment, he's just like, we're always touring together, always like writing on the road and everything. - Yeah. - Yeah, it's really fun. - That's amazing. Well speaking of touring, you literally last week just got off tour with Madison Beer. - I did. - How was that? - Fucking crazy. I like, you don't understand. I've been like Madison and her music. Like that was my, like as she pleases the EP, like heartless. That was my shit. I just have so much respect for her as an artist and she's so kind and was so like welcome to, like welcoming to me and also her audience. I, you never like, 'cause I've opened for people before. And sometimes you just don't really know like what the vibe is or what the reception is. And like, you kind of just have to do your, you're put on your best show that they like it. But her, her crowd was just like so amazing and so supportive and nice. It was just, yeah, it was a crazy experience. - That's amazing. And I feel like they like, she has like a really true deep connection with her fans that you feel. - She does. - Even in things like this, like I'll like make a video and get like 30 comments. - Literally. - So Madison Beer mentioned. - Yeah, literally, like I know I'm gonna end up on Madison Beer fan pages right now. And I'm like, hey guys, I love you, hey. But I, they're so, and I respect that a lot. And I feel like she's built that through like, like just being real with them and like in three years of, like they're so dedicated to her. - Right. - And I really respect and admire that. And I think that you don't get an audience like that by not being like a genuine person. Like she's a genuine person. - Totally. - And so then her fans like really can tell. And I feel like latch on to that. It's just very cool to see. - Yeah. And she's someone who's like been on the internet for a decade. - Yes. - So it's like really magical to see. - Yeah. - I'm not feeling of like aging with someone. - Yeah, it's like a girl. - Like Ariana, you know what I mean? - Yeah. - Like that's our generation. - Totally. - And it's cool to see younger people like experiencing that. - Definitely. - Was there anything you feel like you really learned from this tour from Madison as an artist? - I think that, I mean, there's, there are multiple things. I mean, first of all, just on a performance level. Like I think it's, you, it's like having to know how to perform for like the scale of the rooms was something that I hadn't like experienced before. Like these, I mean, by far the biggest rooms that I've played. - Yeah. - And it was just like, it shows you how much you're there to like entertain and be like, I really want to put on like a show and like that. But that's a really fun thing for me. And then I think that like, I don't know. I think that obviously there's something I knew beforehand, but like the emotional connection like through the music, I think is something that is so important. And like every night that she played selfish, what's the one, the lyric where she's like, why are you always such a Gemini? Like that, I literally, it was, it was deafening. - The room singing and show. - But like, it was crazy. And so I was like, oh, like this, like because that means, like that line means so much to people. And like, yeah, I just think I was like, oh, like that's, it's more than just being like, oh, like I'm gonna be like a pop star, I'm like flashy and whatever, like it's, yeah, it's about like, I don't know, being honest and stuff. - Yeah, and connecting with people. Like music is the greatest connecting force on earth. Like across countries, continents, centuries. Like there's just like something about the human condition. - Yeah, I don't know what it is, but it's like, it's literally the universal language. And it was just like, I was like, holy shit. It's just wild, like watch it. - Yeah, yeah, yeah. But I think that that is beautiful 'cause there's people who feel that way about you. - Yeah. - And you don't even realize, you know what I mean. So when you're watching it and someone else, it's like, no, that there's people watching this who have that same sentiment towards you. - Which is really crazy. I'm like, I, but I mean, I feel like I know so many of my, I just like love them so much. And I, as like, there are, there are new ones that I meet all the time. And then there are people that I've known that have been around and been listening to my stuff for so long. And they're like, I'm like, we're just like friends. So I'm like, I just love you guys. They're awesome. They're the sweetest people ever. - Yeah, well, going, talking about, you know, so long, I want to go all the way back to the beginning. And tell me the story about making "I'm Yours" 'cause that's gonna change your life. - It's crazy. I, I, Thomas was just saying to me the other day, we were just like sitting in a green room and he was like, thank God for "I'm Yours." (laughing) And it's always like that. - I was like, that's so funny. I just don't think about it. But like, yeah, I don't, I, sometimes I have to think about it 'cause we make so much music that I'm like, I don't fucking remember like half of it. Like a wee, I know we wrote it. We tried for a long time 'cause I wanted to do something where it slows down at the chorus. And we're just like having a hard time figuring out how to do that in a way that felt natural. We wrote it like in my brother's childhood bedroom. But we had like written the chorus and then we came back to it like six months later. And then we're like, yeah, finished out like the pre and the chorus. But I think the line that the year so pretty it hurts was like, I wrote that and I was just like, damn. Like that's just how it feels. - Yeah, yeah, yeah. - But I don't know. And then I came to LA on my 18th birthday. Like I was all on the plane to, that was my first time ever here. And I was listening to it when I was ubering around here till like sessions and I was like, this is like a crazy ass. Like this is like a crazy song. - Is this before you'd put it out? - Yeah, wow. - And then I teased it and then I was like, shit. - And it did it just like instantly like? - Not like the, I posted one video with it. I was kind of in an older style of content and it didn't like go crazy and then I posted it with like a, I think it was like some movie clip thing. And it just went crazy and I was like, holy shit. Yeah. - But that draws back to like the cinematicness of it at all. And even when like, you've seen other people like make videos like to talk about stuff to the song. - Yeah. - You can tell again, it's like catching a vibe. - Yeah, yeah, no, it's like, it's like, you want, I think it feels like, it feels like it belongs in a show or something like that. So I think then when you pair it with a part in a movie or a show that feels like the song and I feel like it really resonates with people. But I don't know, it was a very, it's just like, I don't, I don't even know. - Yeah. - It's just crazy. I'm like, there's no way to ever like predict those things, you know, and so. - Totally. - That's why you just put it out. - You just put it out and like you just always try it. I don't know, you never know. I don't know, you just never know. - Totally, I think that's like part of being an artist. You, like I, like I've had a lot of conversations with my friends of, you know, like, there's so much luck involved in life and everything. And I'm always like, but I do think that there is this element of like putting yourself in the position to get lucky. - Yeah, I always, I literally always, I was about to say that, that's crazy. Like you can increase your chances of getting lucky, you know what I mean? Like you, they're obviously is luck involved. Like there's no denying that like sometimes it's just right place, right time, you know? But I think that if you, I don't know, I think having an observation for like what's going on culturally and like what is, I don't know, like what's happening in like the alternative space. Like I don't, there are so many things. It's like, I feel like with, this is, like, die on this hill, Sienna Spyro. - Yeah. - And like, I think you a keyed rivalry at it. Like I, but it like, that's what was happening. And it just like intersects culturally. And like, that's a huge moment. And it's just, I don't know. I think it's just being like on the lookout for those kind of things and, I don't know. - I agree. And I think that like culture is like this pendulum that is always swinging like back and forth. It's so interesting to me how like a Sienna Spyro type artist is popping off at the same time like a pink panther type artist. - Seriously. - You know what I mean? - Yeah, it's crazy. - Yeah, I'm just a spectrum of pop. - Literally, but I love, and I think what is interesting is like social media and TikTok and things like that have like, even to the playing field almost. And so like, it's not like there's one type of thing or like two types of things that are like big, everything's massive right now, which I think is so cool. Which means like you can have such a, you don't have to do like one thing to be really massive and successful and like have a big career. Which I think is really awesome. - And I think that is like something that really drew me to you as an artist is that you are like actively consistently experimenting despite being so young and like only having one, like an album in EP now, even back to my peers. But like favorite being this sort of like dark reggae tone. Like tell me about making that song. ♪ Don't I get out of here? ♪ ♪ Hey, hey, I'll be a good lady ♪ ♪ Say I know what you want to take it ♪ - We had written like the chorus. It was the type of thing where we wrote something. We're like, yeah, this is like cool. Yeah, like this is like fine. And then we came back to it. Thomas was like, I think the melody is not right. And so we rewrote the melody and then retract it. And I was like in my home or I was visiting my family. And then I don't know, I teased it. And I was like, but if I like, I always think about it. Like if we hadn't gone back and rewritten the melody, like my life would be different. Like I don't know, it's just really strange. And it's beautiful, that's how it is. It's how it is. That's also why you like never like kill something. You just shelf it, you know what I mean? - Yeah, exactly. You're just like, okay, maybe I'm just gonna come back to this. - Right, right. - Like I'm not gonna like not do this. - And you mean new perspective. I'm a big believer that there is such thing as working too hard on one thing at a time. - Definitely. - To the point where you like can no longer even see it clearly. - Totally. - Like you can't, you, Tom's and I always are like, we're gonna like do this and then come back to it with fresh ears. Like that's like what our thing is. Or like we'll be writing something or we'll slow it down and or speed it up. So because it's like you kind of hear it again. - Yeah. - And it helps you gain perspective. I don't know. But I think if you, you're not gonna like, if you just continue to listen to it over, it's not gonna like become less clear actually. - Right, right, right, right. And I also think something I thought was so cool about that song is it's mixing like this element of your culture with very much like your world sonically. - Yeah, totally. - Which is like something like I couldn't see another art like one of your contemporaries making that song. It's uniquely yours in a beautiful way. - Thank you, that's really, that means a lot. I, I mean, and my mom's Cuban. And so I grew up listening to a lot. Like so much Latin music. And I just had never, like it never occurred to me to ever put like to put that in my music. And like I've always like, when I grow up, I felt that that part of my identity was like separate from my music. And so I think it was really special to like bring it in there. And I want to continue to do that. You know, like it's just, I feel like, I don't know. I think it's cool to be able to merge the two. - Totally. Is there anything right now you're like, I would love to experiment with that. - Oh, definitely. I mean, oh, I, I mean, even just like, I watched Carol G's Coachella. So I mean, I love her as an artist. And I watched her whole Coachella set. And I was just like, so I thought it was really special like how, like what she brought, like different elements of Latin culture. And like even her last album, like every song is like a different type of Latin music. And I just thought that was really, really cool. And I think that they're, I mean, I'm working on music right now that's like, you know, that that has that. - The EP came out tomorrow. You're on tour last week. And you're like, I'm working on new music. Take a break. - I feel like I can't, I get really like anxious when I'm not like working on music. And also like, I've honestly just, I was talking to Thomas on tour and I was just like, I really want to make stuff that's more like rhythmic right now. Like that's what I'm feeling. And so I'm just like, that's what we're doing. Also like, I've been dancing more on stage. And so like that has been really inspiring for me to like go more in a Latin direction. Yeah, it's just like interesting. - I don't know, everything. - Interesting. - I love the idea of like movement inspiring a song. - Because I also think in the sort of like composition of a show, it becomes this thing of like, wait, like I'd love a song between this one and that one that like, the audience dances to a little bit. - Yeah. - Before we get a little sad again. - It's like creating a narrative in a show. And I think that that's really fun. Also like, I always grew up wanting to dance. I was never like, I was so shy and I just never did it ever. And so to be able to incorporate, I'm like not, that I'm saying I'm a dancer or I'm a best dancer in the whole world. But like, it's been really fun for me to bring that into like my live show. It's just been, I'm like, I've always wanted to do that. - That's so cool. I'm excited to see your bust in a move. - Literally, I'm like, I'm like doing splits on stage. I don't know. - Yeah. - I love it. - That's cool. Okay, Tinging in a different, I really want to talk about your visual identity. Like, I think your art direction is so stunning. - Thank you. - Like the single cover for her face was so good. - Thank you. - And then I love the Alice and Wonderland theme of this project, which is a bunch, a little bit of a different direction for you. - Totally. - Where did that inspiration come from? - I don't, it was one of those things where I was like, I had been thinking about, her face was kind of like the in-between, before like between like Raven and promising a young woman. I just knew that something needed to change. And I was like, there's, I need to make a switch, you know? - Yeah. - I don't know exactly what inspired. I just kept coming into my, I was like, the blue, especially like the light blue and the white. I was, it just kept popping. So I was like, I think I just need to follow whatever gut instinct of this. Like, I need to follow this, but it felt like, I mean, I loved Alice and Wonderland growing up and I loved the whole visual world. I thought it was always so cool. And I think that it was a way for me to like tell the story. I wanted to tell, like on a narrative, like in a narrative direction, and also kind of keep it in like a unsettling world - Totally. - Like it's like, it's visually brighter, but I think that's what makes it a little bit more unsettling and creepy to me. And like I wanted to continue to have that. - I was literally just saying that, like or just thinking that. I think, exactly, kind of like we talked about earlier, like something about Alice and Wonderland is very feminine, but also like psychedelic. - Yes, exactly. - Like the treasure cat. - Oh my God, you know what I mean? - I'm like, I don't know, but I always love the treasure cat. I've played the treasure cat in like a school play. (laughing) - I dig up the archives. There's someone on the internet who will slip it up. - No, I'm like, please go like, no. Like, so like I, yeah, I've been in the world. - You're fulfilling the prophecy. Like, imagine me in a fucking treasure cat costume. Like, no. - I can't. - I like the commitment to the world. - I really did, I, I, but yeah. I think that there's, that was what was really interesting to me is because I think you can keep it in a dark and alternative world, but still add like a whole new visual identity to everything, you know. - Totally. - And I feel like that is like very reflective of this project. This is again, it's like a bit more of that. - Yeah. - Slightly more of the softer side of your. - Totally. - Like range of sound. - Definitely. - And again, like we're talking about this in the way in. Like it was cool. Like I even instantly like had a- - I love it. - It looks so good. - It looks so good. - But that was fun. And like even like the clock bag, you know what I mean? - Exactly. - And that to me is like when I know that an artist visual is gonna work is if it's like if somebody can like, oh, I know what I would wear to that concert. - Yeah. - I know. - 'Cause it's like music is a spectator sport in the way that like sports is. - Yeah. - And think of the way people like have a team and a jersey and like, it becomes this like badge of honor and symbol. - It does. - No, I think it's like, um, I don't know who told me in this, but someone was like, you know when an artist is like has a distinct visual identity when you can dress up for them as Halloween. - Yeah. - Or like when you can dress up. - Yeah, yeah. I've seen a lot of videos about this. - Yeah, it's like, I know, speaking of Arianna, like I know exactly how I would dress up as Arianna. - Totally. - Or like I know how I would dress up as- - And it was like integral to her rise, right? - It was. - The ponytail, the mask with the ears, right? Like that really made her stand out, especially in a time when there was like, a lot of these Disney girls that were very like PG and she had this like, again, this darkness or edge to her. - Totally, I think. - They made her a luring. - I feel like the dangerous woman like really, like brought it into a different, like that, 'cause that was so like bold, you know? And like, and no one was really doing that. And I think that that's really, yeah, I just think that is what I want to go for. You know, and like it's really cool to see like this at the shows like if at my shows first of all the Madison I knew exactly who was going to her show It was really cool like I would or like if if someone would come up to me on the street I would know what they were wearing and I'd be like they're going to the bad Everybody was in like a little white lace skirt and like either boots or flats And they would always have both it was so cute I was like and that's a really like that's a really really cool thing and I I If I see people at my shows like they're always wearing and I'm like they show up in costume and I love that. It makes me so happy Yeah, that's amazing I want to ask you about the title of this project promising young woman Why where did that come from? Yeah, it's it's really I Had been wanting to use the title for so long like two years. I almost named Like Raven was almost called promising young woman, but I was like it's not like right Like there's it's not like the right time. I don't know. It wasn't like correct Um and I don't to me. I think the EP talks a lot about like um, I don't know I Think as I've gotten older there's been the sense of like Almost kind of like not growing into your own expectations of yourself and like that kind of like feeling like oh, I don't know There's something that you're always like lacking or missing or like in relationships or with you know people like feeling like you're not enough or for somebody and I feel like That's been a theme in my life. I don't know and feeling like that has been a theme for a long time And I think that it just like it felt like the right thing. It's like almost it's a kind of like a play on it's like funny You know like promising young woman is like because you don't feel like it's like you can Appear a certain way on the outside and just like not feel it at all right, and it's like what is a promising? Yeah, you know what I mean like it's that that's an entirely subjective ideal Yeah, and even to what you said like subjective to yourself. Yeah, right like I thought like I you want to ask me at 12 I would have been like assumed I was gonna be like married and have kids at like 27 No way, you know what I mean, but like that's life like that's part of life Um, I think it's cool exactly that like this per changing perspective is not even just like external but internal Yeah, no completely and like yeah, it's it's like I don't know if it felt like like a funny kind of like play on growing up and The way that I feel like even it was so interesting to me like At the one of the Madison shows I was watching her show afterwards since girl came up to me and she was like I just wanted to say I just respect how much like how confident you are on stage And that's the only thing she's had to me and it was so sweet and I was like it was so crazy to me because I was like it's So wild how you cannot feel something at all and then appear a certain way to everybody else like I am so like in my head all the time And it was just so wild to me to see the difference of the two and I was like oh like Yeah, I don't know it just it made it it was just like an interesting. I was like oh yeah And this eternal gap between perception and reality. Yeah, and how sometimes perception is reality Yeah, you know what I mean? You're like you perceive me as confident. Thank you. I was But like it's yeah, I was just like it almost felt like it proved the title in some way I was like oh, that's really cool. That is really cool. But very it was not like it was so sweet of her to come up to me and say that I was like oh my god No, thank you. I like actually can you I'm gonna record you saying that again. Yeah, yeah And it's touching back on something that you had said earlier, you know You talked about like promising young woman and this feeling of like not being enough And then the first song on the EP is called the things I would do to be enough for you. Yeah, so where is that come from? Oh God that one um I I don't know I feel like I In the last like few months uh, I was just in a situation with somebody and I felt I felt like I was like having to beg somebody to be with me and like I it just It made I was like what am I like what about me is like not enough for you to want to be with me like I don't understand It feels like I have all these things that check all these boxes and you still Won't do it and it was like such a it was so hard to like Figure out why the fuck you know and like yeah, and I think that um, I think it's also After I wrote it it feels like almost like the way that I Feel about myself and my own standards. It's like there's it's like chasing something that doesn't exist Like you're always gonna want something more. You're always gonna want to be something that you're kind of not And I don't know. It just was like That was just how I was feeling and I Love is not logical. Yeah, and we constantly try to apply this like logical reasoning to it Like if I do x then why will happen or and it's just it's never worked that way You didn't choose that you we don't choose who you love you don't choose who loves you like it's just But our minds are very like obsessive and yeah and like analytical of like well if I had done this or that This thing would be different, and it's like no, it just is and like you I think that also something I've learned It's like if it isn't an immediate yes to know like it like if someone isn't immediately Like if you don't know that they're gonna choose you it's a no Yes, I have a quote. I say there is no bench on team Nikki like you're on the roster or you're not allowed in the stadium You know, I didn't like there's only two options. Yes, there's only two options exactly I love it. You're so wise. Oh, how are you 21? Like I can't believe that you have like these like such like deep profound thoughts about love in life I don't I think I have had I don't know I feel like I'm still figuring out my shit all the time and like I don't know I feel like I just was like I feel like I've just gotten out of like feeling crazy for like months and so like that Helped my perspective a lot right now, but like I don't know. I don't know I'm just I mean you have a lot of songs about love and heartbreak Yeah, do you feel like heartbreak can be a source of artistic inspiration? Oh my god. Yes literally I I feel the most even though like I never want to have to experience the things that I've experienced again Hopefully, I don't but I do like really write the best songs when I like just like oh god Yeah, burning up as I'm writing it, but like I Yeah, I do feel really inspired because I feel like that's when you feel like just this like utter like It yeah, like it's like almost like a physical feeling of like like losing somebody or or whatnot is like so Hard that I don't there's like no other way for the emotion to get out for me like I feel like if I I don't know It's very cathartic to write songs when you're like going through that. Wow That's that's very interesting and I I agree. I think all Every song starts from an emotion and like what is it better? Yeah, there's a bigger emotion than love Yeah, seriously love and like loss and and love and grief like I don't know it's just I but then also it's like I'm yours is like not about heartbreak. Yeah, and that's kind of about like the feeling of falling in love with somebody You're like really like having those emotions for the first time and that's just as powerful. I think as Something that's sad. Yeah, yeah, totally. It's like I imagine as this sort of like slope Yeah, you know what I mean? And then you're like You feel the strongest emotions at at the extremes of it. Yes Exactly and whichever when it is. Yeah Make a different song they can they can both be just as intense just in a different way, you know that's so interesting Yeah, a song with a much different vibe, but I loved was hate myself for loving you. Oh, thank you a little fun. I was like, oh, okay, there's like a little shoulder movement and stuff in there Yeah, she's fine. That's something like I really like I just love how like you Are you you went up yourself consistently? Thank you, and you want to like do more and try new things I think that that's such a sign of when I like an artist is just gonna take off. Thank you I really appreciate that I I that one is really really fun. I like I had been loving like Fanta Graham. I love Fanta Graham and I was listening to a lot of them And I wanted to like do something in that world of stuff. I just I think I was like I think the EP unintentionally also kind of followed like my emotions like getting over somebody and so like the beginning was like so sad I was so fucking sad like literally I didn't I didn't play in this at all I just like happened to be writing while I was going through something and I think during when we were writing that song, I just reached a point where I was just like I'm so Done being sad. I'm just like how dare like how dare you like what is wrong? I don't understand like Like this is not a me problems is a you problem, and I'm just mad that I have like cared so much about someone who doesn't deserve it That's such a good way to view a breakup. Yeah, this is not a me problem. It's a you problem Like you need to figure your shit out, you know exactly and they learn the lessons are hard way. Yeah, they do. I think it has a way of like Finding people but like yeah, I don't know. I think it's like the catharsis of songwriting. Yeah, really you went into it angry and upset through channeling that emotion into music. Yeah. It got out a little while. So you were like, wait, like let me do something fun. Yeah, I was like, wait, I want like, I thought it was, um, yeah, it was just, it was really fun to write. I wrote it with Sasha Sloan and Zone produced on it and Sasha, like, I, I, I don't know, like, I love her artist project. And so it was really cool to, like, work with her on a writing level. And I feel like she just helped, like, bring it out of me. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Um, there was another song that I honestly was, like, very impressive to me. And you're talking about this, like, duality of that, like, emotion was porcelain. Oh, god. And how it's so soft. Yeah. In the verses, but then the chorus is like, it's so hard to do. Yeah. Yeah. And to me, it felt like the verses were like, the porcelain, like, very beautiful, put together face, but then the chorus is like, the shattering, like, you know what I mean? You say that. I've never, I almost like, never thought about it like that, but that actually, that makes sense. Porcelain is like, that was one of the songs that I, we kind of wrote, and it was slightly different. And then I was like, no, like, I really think this is something that's like, has something and so we went back to it and kind of rewrote it a bit. But that, I've never like talked about anything of that subject matter before. And I think that that one really tied into like, not like having this expectation and standard for yourself. And like, not being, it's like, it's not real. Like it doesn't exist. It's like, you, you just will always be reaching for something that isn't there. And yeah, that one was just really like, the lyrics are like, kind of just really fucking sad, but like, I don't know. Totally. I think perfection is a subjective concept. Yeah. What is perfect to you is not perfect to me, is not perfect to Betty Sue down the block. Like there were different people with different tastes and different experiences. And that's what amounts as, you know, your opinion. Yeah. And trying to hold yourself to some fictional idea of perfection is silly. Yeah. And I also even think a lot of times in like the artist part of it in the songwriting and blah, blah, blah, like making something. Perfection can be this form of procrastination. Oh, absolutely. Like you're just trying so hard. So hard to like get to something. Yeah. Yeah. And it's like, no, just let it be good. Yeah. Just do something that's get somewhere. Yeah. And then this is great. Yeah. Why are you trying to like fight over something like this like tiny little thing? It's like, totally. You have this amazing. And I love that you really like touching those themes of that with this song. And I love like the softer guitar parts. Yeah. That was like really, really cool. Thank you. It was, yeah, I just think that that one was like, I feel like there are not very many songs that talk about that subject matter and like whether it be like body issues or like whatever it is that are like in a way that it's so easy to do it wrong. Yeah. You know, like it's so easy to be like, but we're, we're perfect the way we are. Like, you know, I don't, that's like when I feel that sense of like, um, like, I don't know, when you feel that way, it doesn't feel like, oh, but no, we're all like awesome. It doesn't feel like that. It's like, I wanted to write a song that actually felt like the emotions of like not being satisfied with yourself in whatever way that may be. I very much agree. And it's, yeah, to me, it's good back to this idea of like fictional perfection. Yeah. Yeah. I'm like, and also what we said earlier about how you like change, you know what I mean? Like what would have been a perfect life or go or whatever past you five years ago will not be. It always shifts. And like you, you don't really know it like it will always change. And so I think you just have to anticipate that it will change. And also like, I think knowing how to like, value and see what you have right now, that like makes, I don't know, that like, makes this part of your life or this part of who you are like actually good. Like being able to recognize that is really important, but it's really hard to when like, I think also in music, it's like, you're always, always trying to like find the next thing that's bigger, the next thing that's this. And like there's, it's very hard to appreciate what you have instead of just wanting more all the time. Totally. I, I think happiness, we view happiness as a ceiling when it's actually a floor. Like you always, like you look up at happiness. Yeah. Like the next thing, the next, the next album, if I do this amount of streams, if I do that, like whatever, like whatever goal and then that goal always shifts. Whereas like I think happiness is like when you look down at your life and you're like, yeah, I got great friends. My family loves me. That's so true. I'm stable. I, I'm going to go to the park this afternoon. Like you know what I mean? Like, like on the most boring mundane day, if you experience joy still, that is happiness. Yeah. At it's like, tourist. No, truly, that's actually really, I've never thought about it like that, but I think that's very, very accurate. I think that like, I don't know, it's very hard. I feel like I lose perspective so fast. It's so hard to like see it, you know? Yeah. Yeah. There was a, I want to say like a favorite line earlier from this project. It was in every life where you said, God, I'm so in love. It feels almost violent. Yeah. Does your, do you, does this idea of love, can it feel like violence? Oh my God. Yeah. Like all I, I was, I feel like I was just talking about it, but like there's like this like period of like liking somebody you're falling in love. That's like, it literally feels like the best thing you've ever experienced. And like, it feels like everything, like not like you go wrong, like everything just like 10 times better. For me, at least, then it passes this threshold of like, oh my God, it's debilitating. Like, I don't know what to do. Like, I think that like, I don't know. I'm very anxious. And like, I, that's the way that I like, I'm like, I need to know that you're still going to be here, you know? Like, that this is going to work out the way I wanted to work out. It never does. But like, yeah, it has it. But like, I, so like, it does feel like, I don't know. And maybe I think maybe I've just like, do I feel things like too intensely? Like, do I feel things like more than, I don't think there's any such thing. I don't think so. But like, it's sometimes it feels like it and it, I'm just like, I don't know. It does like the amount that I feel like I can care and the amount that I feel like I can like, want to hold on to something. It like does feel violent. Like, it like, it like takes a toll on you. Like, I don't know. It's like, it makes you not want to like have to do that again, you know? Right, right, right. But I think that there's no such thing as feeling too much. Yeah. And it's, it's, it's not in your control. Again, it just is. Yeah. And what that feeling, I think it comes from is this desire to have that reciprocated. Yeah. And then when it feels not reciprocating, you try to hold on tighter. Yeah, exactly. You even more have said that it's not reciprocated. And that's how it like, you know, that's where the spiral forms, like, that's not how it's supposed to feel. No, like, and I think it almost like gives you this fake, fake idea of like love almost like love shouldn't, love should feel easy. Like it shouldn't, I don't know, it shouldn't feel like you have to convince someone to like stay or like, hold on to something so tight or otherwise it's going to leave. Like, that's, I think it, yeah, it just gives you this like false perception of like what caring about somebody should be. Right. And it's important that love shouldn't just feel easy from you. Yes. Love should feel easy from both sides. Yeah, exactly. And it's very easy to fixate into like, well, this felt so good for me. Yeah. And not understand why it's not from the other person. No, exactly. But I don't, again, I think like things are just the way that they are. And like, you can't convince someone to show up for you in a way that they're just not going to do. Yeah. There's a great movie about this. Really? About 500 days of summer. Oh my god. I've never seen it. I've never seen it. I feel like it would be my life. My favorite movie of all time. Really? Yeah, it's literally like was like, you know, when you just like watch something as a kid and it just like shifts your world. Yeah. Like that was that movie for me. Yeah. With love and relationship. Wait, I need to watch this. It's so good. You will, you will love it because it's the entire thesis of it is the guy is like absolutely head over heels to love with the girl. And the girl likes him. Yeah. She's not like him. They date for a little bubble. But it's like, like that was just a boyfriend I had. And he's like that with love. Yeah. Which is so like sad. Yeah. But that's just the way that things are sometimes. Like there's no, you can't like explain how someone feel like they just feel the way it's like the way you feel about somebody. Like I'm sure that there have been people who feel very intently and like intensely towards me that I'm just like, I like them. Yeah. You know, and like that's not because of like who they are. It's just like you don't feel that way. Right. You know, right. And it's it's hard to remember that because when you're the person then you're just like, whatever. And it's how it's hard to remember that sometimes like the rules switch. Yeah. No, it's fine. It's not personal. It's not like it's just it's again. It just is. Yeah. No, but you have such great takes about the other stuff. Like I'm like, God, no wonder you're so writing songs and stuff. Like, okay, it all adds up now. I'm like learning from you right now. Oh shit. - I didn't think about these. - Well, that's not what the point of this podcast is, it was like, talking about this stuff. - Exactly. - And I'm a big believer too that there's like nothing that at least for me makes me like appreciate the art more than learning to appreciate the artist. - Yeah, totally. - Like just understanding who you are as a human. - Yeah, I feel that way about artists that I love. And I'm like hearing, I don't know, you want to get to like know somebody. And when I love an artist, I'm like, I want to like know who's writing songs, you know? - Yeah. - But I feel like, thank you. - You're welcome. - Okay, I'm gonna close with one silly question. - Please. - But I'm just curious 'cause we've talked about it that much. - Oh my God, please. - Who is on your pop girl mount rush more? - Oh my God. - Four faces. - Four faces. - Oh my God. - And it's personal to you. Like it doesn't have to be what you think is the best. It's just like these are the four that were like influential to me. - Okay. Okay, I mean, obviously two, it's gonna be Melanie and Ariana. - It's gonna be tough. - Wait, I'm really thinking. - There's no wrong answers. It's like, you know what someone asks you what your favorite song is? And I'm like, I've never heard a song in my life. - Literally. - Literally that. - I know I did. - I'm like, I need to consult the archives. - Yeah, no, I'm like, I love my Spotify. - Wait, can you buy two of my bucks? This is really important. - It's like, you exude Melanie. Like I didn't even think about that before coming here. And the second you said it, I'm like, wow. Like, how did I not see that? - No, I, I just like, well, thank you. That's very much a compliment because I love her so much. But I just like, she made me wanna like, direct my bone videos. I didn't even know that was a thing before. I watched some interview with her and she said that she directed her own videos. And I was like, holy shit, this is an option. Like, I didn't know you could do this. Like, okay, hmm, I right now, and just in general, Carol G, love her so much. Who's gonna be, oh, Lana. - Yeah. - Obviously. - We had to see the Lana. - I didn't know. - I would say, and then, like, not honorable mention because like, this is like, I just have to add her, but Haley Williams, like, oh my God, I love her so much. - She is the goal. - And she's literally, she's so fucking cool. - She's a good person. - Yes. - She's an activist, like, everything about her. - Everything about her voice, her, like, I just. - Her ability to construct a melody is like outrageous. - It's, it's, I'm like, we need to dice, donate the body to science and dissect the brain. With the way she can just, like, pull in and out, like, even like the most silly little things, like, hard times was like, I'm like, - Right? - It's so good, I love that song. And like, oh my God, all I wanted, like, decode, like, oh, these ones, I want to be 12 again some time. - I know, you know what I mean? Like, I need to hear this. - I know what I mean. - You know, my swooping literally, I'm like, I need to be like, discovering like, alternative music again for the first time. - Right, we can do that, you, me, you and me will cosplay. - Oh my God. - While hanging out, I literally, I'm like, I'll just get sidebanks, like, don't tempt me. I'll just get them for fun these time. - Don't tempt me with the good time. - Yeah, of course, love my girl. - Yeah, well, thank you so much for coming on the show, dude. - Thank you for having me. - I, hey, you can stream promising you a woman right now. - You actually can do that right now. And actually, I would welcome that idea. - You should, I'm very excited. - My favorite song was the things I would do to be enough for you. - Thank you, that's my two. - Really? - Yeah. - You're good. - We just aligned. - We just aligned. - We just aligned. - Well, thank you so much. - And I'll see y'all next week. - Bye. - Bye.