The University of Texas Southwestern Medical School

[Music] From Case Question Reserve University School of Medicine in Cleveland, Ohio, this is the All Access Med School Admissions Podcast. Hello everybody, I'm your host Christian Esman and I'm the Senior Director of Admissions and Financial Aid here at the Medical School. And it's great to be back with you. This episode here has been a labor of love. I've had it for a little while now, but I ran into some software issues and so it's taken me a bit of time to kind of pull this all together. So it's a really good one. I was able to get three great guests to come on and represent University Texas Southwestern. So we're just going to jump right into it because I've been dying to get this out to you. So let me tell you a little bit about UT Southwestern. Located just north of downtown Dallas, Texas, the University of Texas Southwestern Medical Center or UT Southwestern, as you'll hear us call it a lot in this conversation, is the largest medical school in the University of Texas system and the state of Texas. I think UT Southwestern has a unique history. A group of Dallas citizens organized the Southwestern Medical Foundation to promote medical education and research in Dallas in the region. Then when Baylor University moved its medical school from Dallas to Houston in 1943, the foundation formally established Southwestern Medical College as the 68th Medical School United States. Interestingly, since the school was founded during War War II, the medical school was initially housed a handful of empty barracks. Ultimately, a few years later, in 1949, the school partnered with the University of Texas as a branch campus. UT Southwestern incorporates three major degree granting institutions. UT Southwestern Medical School, UT Southwestern Graduate School and Biomedical Sciences, and UT Southwestern School of Health Professions. And UT Southwestern has five major hospitals. The mission of UT Southwestern Medical School is to educate, discover, and heal. Educate physicians, scientists, and caregivers so that they are optimally prepared to serve the needs of patients in society, discover, research that solves for unmet needs by finding better treatments, cures, and prevention with a commitment to ensuring real world application, and heal with the best care possible today with continuous improvement and innovation from better care tomorrow. UT Southwestern is one of the least expensive public medical schools in the country and among the top 10 largest medical schools in the United States. The school's tuition and fees are approximately $21,000 per year for in-state residents. It's a good deal. They accept out-of-state applicants, but they do not accept applications from international applicants, including Canadians, and also those with a deck of status. As a state university, it's worth noting that 90% of their classes have to be comprised of residents of Texas. Also applicants to the school need to apply through the TMD-SAS, which is Texas Medical and Dental Schools Application Service. So that's not amcast, and this does come up in our conversation. For the entering class of 2021, the UT Southwestern received approximately 6,200 applications in interviewed around 755 applicants for a class size of 237 students, which includes 8 MD-PhDs and 5 OMFS students. Those are oral, max, and low-fatial students if you don't know what OMFS is. 55% of their class are comprised of women, and 26% self-described as groups coming from underrepresented in medicine. Alright, let me tell you a little bit about my three guests here today. Leah Schouten-Cresser is the Director of Emissions Recruitment and on boarding. She has worked in the office of admissions and recruitment at UT Southwestern for the past three and a half years. She joined UT SW after spending over five years at the MIT Sloan School of Management in Cambridge, Massachusetts, supporting their MBA, Master of Finance, and Dual Degree programs. Prior to working at MIT, she worked at the Harvard Kennedy School of Government while earning her Master's in Education with a concentration in Higher Education Administration. At UT Southwestern, she leads all admissions, student recruitment, and onboarding efforts for the medical school, as well as supports these efforts for the graduate school of biomedical sciences and the school of health professions. Leah is originally from Vermont and now lives in Dallas with her two and a half-year-old son and her husband. Another voice you're going to hear today is that of Dr. Craig Rubin. He is the chief of the Division of Geoiatric Medicine and Professor of Internal Medicine at UT Southwestern. He graduated from the New Jersey Medical School and completed his residency training in Internal Medicine in 1985 at UT Southwestern Affiliated Hospitals and then he joined the Department of Internal Medicine at UT Southwestern in 1985 and became the lead physician in a health services research trial sponsored by the Robert Wood Johnson Foundation. Dr. Rubin has been engaged in research and has published continuously numerous peer-reviewed journals in the areas of comprehensive geriatric assessment, osteoporosis, Alzheimer's disease, and medical education. His main effort over the years has focused on patient care. He is the director of a Center for Geriatric Care and holds numerous endowed chairs and professorships. In 2017, Dr. Rubin was the recipient of a University of Texas Regents Outstanding Teacher Award. He was an inaugural, excuse me, college's mentor in 2007 in the Estabric College and became the master of the Southern College in 2014. We get into what these colleges are during the conversation too, so that'll become a little more clear here soon. Finally, Dr. Angela Peter Mamen, Moholic is Dean of Medical Students and Associate Dean for Student Affairs as well as Professor of Pediatrics at UT Southwestern. She completed her pre-farmacy coursework at Texas A&M University before graduating from the College of Pharmacy at UT Austin. She then completed her medical degree at UT Southwestern Medical School and pediatric residency training at Children's Medical Center in Dallas. She also completed the Educational Scholars Program sponsored by the pediatric academic societies. Throughout her career, she has demonstrated a commitment to medical education across the continuum with experience as a college mentor, pediatric clerkship director, residency mentor and involvement in faculty development nationally. She has received numerous teaching awards and most recently was inducted into the Southwestern Academy of Teachers. As Associate Dean for Student Affairs, she has led a campus-wide effort to promote professionalism education and evaluation. She's also been appointed to a health professionalism scholar for her work at UT Southwestern Systems Initiated Task Force to study professional identity formation. These are some really accomplished people that are very passionate about their school and the work that they do. So, I am so fortunate to have them on this show. So, let's just jump right into it with them. Enjoy. [music] Chloé. [music] Chloé everybody, good afternoon. I have Dr. Mahalek Lea, and Dr. Ruben with me from UT Southwestern. Thanks so much for taking some time on your day. All three of you to do this. It's our pleasure. Happy to be here. I am a big fan of Texas and Dallas. I love the place. So, I want to hear from you. People can get to know you a little bit beyond the bio they just heard about you. Maybe Dr. Mahalek, you're from Texas, right? You're an Aggie. Yeah, you're an Aggie. When people come to Dallas, what's the thing that, hey, when you come here, you got to go do this. What's your thing you point people to? Your go-to thing for visitors. I guess the state fair in October is amazing. So that's a really great thing. And if you can catch some sports, I'm a big cowboy fan. Ben to the Jerry Dome. Yes, I have. Oh, man. It looks incredible. It was a little, yeah. You spend your time looking up at the TV the whole time which was a bit so hard. Oh my, yeah, right? It's enormous. You forget those. The guys are playing down in the field below. That's right. So Leah, you're from Vermont, right? But now Dallas is home. What's something that surprised you that you really have come to enjoy since you've moved there? Yes, yes. I've been here about five years now and moved here with my husband and now have a two and a half year old. It's we have just been so surprised how much we love love Dallas. I mean, we bought a house here and there's so many amazing sort of cultural attractions here. We love the Dallas Arboretum. There's an amazing arts district that we've taken advantage of quite a lot. We too are sports fans, but primarily New England sports fans still, but we've gotten into the Mavericks a little bit. So it's been fun to go watch some of the basketball games. And it's just a wonderful city to be in and also the food scene here is just amazing. I miss the New England seafood, but the barbacue and the just. just wealth of different restaurants. It's awesome to check out. - Texas barbecue, yeah, that's my favorite. That's Ruben, how about you? What's something that you point people to when they come to Dallas or visit or if you have friends come in town, what do you take them? - Well, I think I was much like what Leo was talking about. I'm also from the Northeast, but I've been here over 30 years and things have changed. But it's amazing that the restaurant seen unfortunately like food maybe too much, but there's different, and not just barbecue in the typical Texas type, what you might imagine, but all varieties, very diverse restaurants. And everything is easy to do here. As I said, I come from the Northeast, but often require a lot of planning to go to an athletic event or whatever the topic. Here, you just sort of do it. It's things are getting much more crowded than when I first arrived. But still it's very easy to do any variety of things. - All right, so let's start off with talking about your curriculum. Now I read some places it's a new curriculum and Dr. Moholic says it's new or, and we went through a curricular change a long time ago and it's like, well, what point is it the new curriculum, not the new curriculum? It was a 10 years, you both five years this or so. So when, the first two years, it's kind of focused on that. I wanted to kind of hear, what are some of those highlights that you like prospective students to know about when they're considering UT Southwestern? - Yeah, so the basic science, and we actually have like a 18 month pre-clinical pre-clerkship curriculum, we call them the pre-clerkship phase. And that, some of the parts of the new curriculum that I think are really great, is that it really integrates a lot of the material together from day one. And the first six months are kind of all your core science that you need to build. And then starting in January, you're immediately going into the organ system blocks and really learning all the different material altogether. So instead of having the first year be normal and the second year be abnormal, you're learning it all together. So the normal physiology and then the pathology, how you would treat disease, all of it all together. And we've really with the newer curriculum, we have integrated like radiology with anatomy so that it's, you're learning it in a cross section in a cadaver, but then you're also learning it on an ultrasound and an MRI and a CT. So there's a lot of integration with real modern medicine and how to put it all together. - And that clinical context is important. - Yeah, absolutely. And there's been a lot of integration with simulation in the various organ system blocks in the new curriculum where the students can really kind of immediately see it come to life with clinical scenarios in cases and learn to work together. Another big feature is the kind of active learning sessions and we have a really neat fancy team-based learning center where students learn about how to work together in teams and kind of applying all of that basic science to real patient cases. So that's been a big feature of our pre-clerkship curriculum. - What are those typical days and weeks like in the first two years? Are they in class all day? Is it a lot of lecture or is it kind of half day activity? What's that look like? - Yeah, typically there's a couple hours of lecture in the mornings where if they want to come, they can. If they're that kind of a learner, if they want to stream it on 1.5 or 2X, whatever from home in their PJs, they can do that. And then the afternoon's depending on the period, they may have one or two afternoons with an active learning exercise or a lab. And then they also have colleges one day a week that we can talk more about when you're ready. - Yeah, I mean, I want that to a good segue. So I understand Dr. Rubin is one of the college advisors. - So UT Southwestern is a fairly large medical school class, it's about 232.40. So about 13 years ago, this idea of having academic colleges. And if you think of a sort of Harry Potter-like format, this was an opportunity to have small group learning centers settings. So there are six students that are assigned to a mentor, a clinical mentor, who's a seasoned senior clinical faculty. And from the very first week of school, they meet every week. And for the first 18 months, 19 months, they meet weekly. And then they continue to meet when they go off to their club ship years. But what's covered, it's a very safe small group, six students. And as I said, one senior faculty member. And they talk about just life in general, but they have a specific curriculum that takes place. And it's sort of the doctering course, if you will, in some places may refer to that. So they learn how to do histories and physicals with their mentor. But they also talk about professionalism and ethics and a variety of other different topics in these small groups. It's also an opportunity for them to talk about how their week was. They really develop very close bonds with their mentor, who I was a mentor. Now I'm sort of a substitute teacher mentors. And Dr. Mahalik has her own small group as a mentor. By the time they graduate, we really feel like our children are graduating college. They came to school not knowing how to wear a stethoscope. And now they're graduating as physicians. It's for us as the mentor is quite remarkable transition to see them through this. But we're there for them in a very non-judgmental, as I said, very secure, safe environment. If they have some gripes, they can voice it without worrying. And the six students amongst themselves become also developed very close ties. They're selected very randomly. I mean, they're diverse in terms of male, female, et cetera. But they don't know each other. It's selected by-- it's kept quiet until the sorting math during their orientation, which college and which mentor. And so it's a very important part of their medical school career. Well, that's great. It sounds like a safe place. It doesn't sound like it's evaluative, in a sense, that you're writing their dean's letter for them eventually. Dr. Mahal, is that a different process your student affairs? Yeah, we do that. Yeah, so you do that. It's not evaluative from the college. As a mentor, the whole purpose is to make them look really good when they start their clerkship. So we spend 18 months trying to get them to really shine when they come to actually doing clinical rotation. So it's all a preparation and a safe way of like, how can I make you the best you can be so that when you hit the clerkships, you're ready to hit the ground running. Oh, that's cool. What do you find students initially struggle with when they run these small groups together? I think students, medical students, being medical students and being very compulsive, I think they feel like they need to know it all day one. All right. And I think one of our roles is to reassure them, and this is the first day in the rest of their life, that medicine is continuing to a learning experience and to reassure them that they're not expected to know everything day one or day two. And this is I think a recurrent theme. And as they do approach the clerkship years, we want them to be prepared for that stage in training, but they're not going to be expert then as well. That's important. That's important. Dr. Mahalakwada, what would you add to that? I think that's perfect. I would say I absolutely agree. I think the hardest thing is for them to be a little vulnerable and be OK with not being great at something and be OK with learning and being part of that process. It's also really fun for them to learn to give feedback to each other and be supportive peers. And so that's a really great opportunity to learn how to give each other feedback to help each other grow. So that's a really special thing to watch as well. Yeah, that's sometimes giving feedback is harder than receiving feedback. Because you do it very tactfully as a skill. So that says like a great environment to kind of learn those things. And that takes me to-- I saw on your curricular schematic, there's a section called "Strive." What is described that for me? Because I can't remember what is a stand for something. I can't remember what-- It actually isn't in the month. Oh, it's not. But what you know, it sounded really good. So that is an offering by my colleague and I in student affairs, Dr. Barker. We started it. It's a personal and professional development seminar. And it was really a lot of the orphan topics that aren't covered well, but really are core to you becoming a physician. And topics like your personal well-being. Learning about how to balance your life about financial well-being. Like how do you make a budget? Kind of like cultural humility and cultural competence and learning about-- conscious bias. And actually, and a big part of it is professionalism, but also about careers, choosing your career and learning about different aspects of medicine and how you might go about finding what kind of doctor you're planning to become. So there's a lot and then study skills, management, test taking strategies. So all of those things that are really intrinsic to you being successful and developing professionally, we're able to put in that seminar course over the 18 months. So that's been really wonderful. Yeah, like those little extra scoops of other topics are really important that like you said, aren't always captured in the in the main curriculum, but those are important aspects that need to be, you know, shared with students because it all goes together. Let me pull you in here a little bit. When you're meeting prospective applicants, what do you hear from them that they're most interested in when they're when they're exploring UT Southwestern? Yeah, I mean, we are sort of known as a research powerhouse. It's sort of one of our sort of core missions of the school. So we do tend to attract a lot of students who are really, really passionate about research. Maybe they've done research through it undergrad or perhaps they haven't and they're really interested in sort of engaging in research while there are students at UT Southwestern. So one of the things that comes into play that we like to talk to prospective students about is our scholarly activity period, which is sort of a dedicated or protective block of time. It's 12 weeks. It's mandatory for all students and they get to do some type of scholarly pursuit in one of several areas. And for some, maybe that's basic research. For others, they can focus on things like medical education or global health or community health. But there are, you know, beyond scholarly activity, that's just kind of a drop in the bucket. There are just so many opportunities for our students to engage in research while they're here. That's often a number one question that we get when we're yeah, tabling at an event is to talk to me about your research opportunities here and what I can really engage in. So can first years get involved in research? Shortly after they arrive, I people are not nodding their head yes because I can't see that. Absolutely. I see in fat. I see it. Not heads are going up and down. So you as a first year, you can get involved in research. You don't have to wait. And I am going to go on a limb. Can that be longitudinal? If I start something in my first year, can I carry that into my scholarly activity the 12 protected weeks? Yeah. So I'll chime in. We have a medical student summer research program. So students can participate in that either the summer or before that even start medical school. So that's not very common, but it happens. But a good chunk of the class does summer research after the first year. So we still have a summer after the first year. And so you can a lot of the students will get really into their project in that summer period and then actually build upon it for their scholarly activity. And then they can also do fourth year research electives so that they can then go back. And if they do all three and write a thesis, they can qualify for a distinction. So an MD with distinction in that subject area. Yes, it shows up on their transcript or on their okay. And I see that there's several tracks for them to choose from. I'm actually a medical education, global health, community health, clinical translational, quality improvement. And I'm sure there's some flexibility. I find something in the humanities that you would support me in there. Absolutely. We've done that. So really it's about going to the scholarly activity, the directors and say I've got this really cool thing I want to do. And as long as it's legitimate and scholarly and you have a mentor, they're really supportive. Tell us about the hospitals where students are training there. I mean, because from what I read, there's four pretty four or five big affiliates and then some community. So what is the clinical training look like for students? And how do you share that with prospective students? Yeah, I mean, I think our basic science were famous for. But what the students don't realize is that what I would say is our absolute number one strength that you do self-western is our clinical training. It is unparalleled. I think there are, you know, there are very few, if not none, medical schools out there that have two brand new hospitals that their students work through and that are as amazing as what we have. So we have our Climates University Hospital is a little over five six years, I think. And it's now rated number one hospital in DFW for five years in a row. So really within a year of being built was the number one hospital in DFW. And Parkland Hospital, which pretty much everyone in the around in the country knows about Parkland. It's an amazing safety net hospital in Dallas. It is also a relatively brand new hospital. So like six or seven years old as well. So and it is a remarkable place to learn medicine. The diversity that's there with our patient population, languages, just the breadth that our students get to experience and participate in, I think is really amazing. And then we have Children's Medical Center, I'm a pediatrician, so that's where I work right there in the neighborhood. So we're all together on the campus and then the VH just a few miles south, which gives a whole different perspective to students and government. So, you know, the the amount of the the the breadth of the training opportunity. We also have a partner with Texas Health Resources, which is a community-based hospital. So it's really there's it's amazing that the opportunities that our students have. And I would say beyond that all of our hospital partners have been really supportive of students playing a major role in patient care as opposed to being observers. So our students are in it. They're writing notes, they're putting in orders, they're participating in procedures and really engaged in taking care of patients. And that allows them to be very well trained when it comes to starting their residency. Premise love here and that. That's one of the first, you know, how soon can I start seeing patients and how involved can I get? And so I think that that is that's very appealing. They're that active and they're not always an observer role. But are there communities service projects or or free clinics that students have or get involved in? Yeah, we have like seven different medical student run free clinics on the Dallas area. So our students are very engaged in the community. We have over a hundred different student orgs and many of them are service-based and community-based and even the ones that are typically not end up having service projects. So there's a lot of real engagement with the community. And that leads into the community-based research tracks that we have where really it's about going into the community, finding out what's the need and asking the community partners to help us identify what you need and then building an intervention, whether it's an educational project or some kind of health intervention and then evaluating that. So so it's really the goal and we have a huge united to serve health fair that serves you know like a thousand people a year that involves all three schools and at it's at a local grade school or middle school in the area and they put on all kinds of educational projects and health fairs etc. and then tie it in so that we actually connect those patients to ongoing health care. So it's it's really a remarkable area. And our students do amazing work in the community. Well I noticed that I didn't see a community service requirement for students but it just sounds like you know they're going to get there they're going to find the activity that speaks to them and they're going to go you know have at it you don't need to have a community service requirement right. That's right and you know our students were incredible during the pandemic of like signing up to help the hospitals when they really were short staff about doing contact tracing and actually just actually giving COVID vaccine. So they worked at Parkland and it climbed to provide vaccines for the community. So if they're remarkable individuals here. Yeah. So like good junior colleagues you're you're grooming them grooming them well. Another common question we get, Leigh I think you'd agree is what about international experiences. Now I know right now it's a little dicing but when it comes to global health opportunities are there particular countries that UT Southwestern has partnerships with that students get to go to or how does that work? Yeah we have a tremendous office for global health and we certainly have a lot of opportunities. It's one of our tracks that we offer through our scholarly activities period and we do have key partnerships really all over the globe in Asia and Africa Central. I believe in Latin America we have students who do mission trips over their spring breaks. They'll do elective activities abroad as well. So there are many many opportunities. Dr. Mahalak maybe will elaborate a little bit more on some of those but we certainly have a lot of opportunities for for students who are interested in health and medicine outside the walls of the US. - A lot of the students will go and find an opportunity and then run it by the Global Health Committee that approves it and says, that sounds like a great opportunity. And there's a really great mentorship through the office to make sure that there are high quality projects and that they're doing good as part of it and they're really helping to give back and have something that's sustainable. So it's pretty broad. - Yeah, one thing I saw is you guys have student housing available, right? So is housing hard to find around the campus or is this just an extra kind of cool thing that you offer you can live off campus if you want to or you can go find your own thing or you can stay, you can live in this student dorm or apartment place. How does that work? - Yeah, so way back when there just really wasn't a lot of apartments are right around the area. And so the university kind of invested in this apartment complex that's pretty close and safe over what and it's kind of controlled like so it's a little bit cheaper than the other apartments around the area. Over time it has become very popular. But also over time there's been many, many more apartment complexes built in the area. So there's plenty of housing. It's still, Med Park is a popular place to be because it's a good deal. And there's a shuttle back and forth to the campus. So that's nice and it's gated. But there are really a lot of really wonderful housing options in the area. - I got to think maybe it's new first year, so it might just be, it's easy to go to Med Park because I just know I'll have a shuttle but then after I get there a year, I'll go find some friends of off-camp or there in other places and go branch out a little bit. What's the vibe like at UT Southwestern? Like within the student body and that's because that's one thing in this last year of virtual interviews that I miss. I feel like our prospective students are missing out on that. They're not able to come and be in the building and feel that energy from the student body. How would you all describe the vibe at UT Southwestern? - Well, I'll start and I'll let Leah, maybe Dr. Rubin chime in if you have other thoughts, but we miss having people come to campus. Just because it usually is something that it's like, "Ah-ha," when they come to campus and actually get to speak to our students, there's a little room we're going around that our students are competitive with each other. I have to say when students come to campus and talk to our students, they're like, "Wow, that is not at all true. You guys are amazing." And so I think the vibe is, we have such diverse students that are incredible. It's amazing when you read about all that they've done and talk to them about their experiences, the things that they, how passionate they are and serving others. And it's really remarkable to see the mix and how they engage with each other and support each other and post little study guides on the O-Drive to help each other with their quizzes and tests. And so I think it is really amazing. And the colleges create this fun, so it's not just academic. It's like there's a mascot and they compete each other for individuals. It's part of the culture. And we have an amazing study space for each of the colleges so that they can hang out together and get to know each other. Celebrate birthdays. So that collegiality and the fun and students are amazed at their classmates. I can't believe I'm with all these amazing people. And so really to me, that's what we miss out on it. But having everybody kind of come and see us. So I'm happy that we can have a chance to get that out there. Leah, do you want to add anything? - No, I mean, I'd really echo everything you say. I agree, I really, really miss hosting our in-person interviews and bringing groups of students onto campus. But I'm continually wowed by our current medical students. I have a little bit less exposure to them than Dr. Moholik and Dr. Rubin. But we have pretty large groups of students who assist us with our interview programming and panels and our second look weekends. And I'm just always amazed by sort of how collaborative they are and how willing they are to take time and their business schedules, their medical students to sort of give back and to make sure they're really helping us attract the best possible students to UT Southwestern. And they couldn't be more driven and smart and intelligent. But also they're humble and they're so willing to serve others. And I think that's something that has really struck me since I started working here four years ago. - Is there anything we didn't talk about before we kind of switch gears and talk about the admissions processes? Is there anything from either of you that coming into our conversation today, you're like, if that guy doesn't ask us about this, let's make sure, you know, we bring this up. - Well, I would just add one thing. I think what the other really wonderful aspect of Southwestern is that we have really remarkable student support services. Student Diversity and Inclusion, you know, welcomes all students and has all kinds of wonderful educational opportunities with their diversity, lunch and learn and different social activities to really celebrate how diverse we are and what everyone brings to the table. Our office and student affairs really, we kind of act like the parents guiding them all through and helping them apply to residency. We have really tremendous resources and student academic support for tutoring and learning specialists and really trying to help support our students. And we have an awesome student health and student wellness that are there, you know, because meds are hard. - Yeah. - It gets stressful. So I'm really proud of the people I get to work with and how caring and supportive they are of students and it really kind of helps smooth the path. So that the students can really flourish and whenever they're struggling a little bit, they get some help that they need to be able to be successful. - Yeah, that's so important. That is just so important. I'm glad I ask and I'm glad you mentioned that. So let's transition then to the piece that really pulls people in and that's the, okay, how do I get in? And what are you guys looking for? So the kind of the admissions part of this conversation and one of the things that you value, and Dr. Rubin is the Chair of the Admissions Committee and Leah's in charge of admissions from the recruitment and management process. So one of those qualities that really speak to your admissions committee that you guys value in your applicants that you wanna bring to the school. - I know this term is thrown around a lot but we're quite sincere. We have very holistic approach to evaluating and I think if you can sort of translate some of Dr. Mohawk's comments, we want highly motivated compassionate people who care more about others than themselves. And there are many different aspects of that. There's teamwork, leadership. And one's experiences can reflect that. We certainly do want to make sure that people have the academic ability to successfully complete a very rigorous curriculum. And so up front, that's a serious consideration. We want to feel confident that they have the academic ability to succeed. Once that's determined, we sort of leave that part alone. I think in years past, that was sort of over-weighted. Now we really want to first see, okay, can they successfully complete medical school curriculum to have the academic ability have to demonstrate that promise? But once that question is answered, yes, we put that aside and everything else from that point on becomes more important. So in fact, our interviewers have no idea what the academic background of the people they're interviewing is. And that's one reflection because we don't want them to need that determination. They don't need to consider that. It's all these other human qualities that are I think essential for a compassionate, caring physician that we're interested in. Now we also have certain common missions. So those who are more likely perhaps to go into a serving under served area or primary care area or academics, if there's some very tangible way through their experiences that make it likely they may pursue one of those paths. That's also something we consider. But we obviously have people who graduate and go into cardiology and a community, not necessarily that strictly. But we do that. That is one of the many other character characters that we consider. speaking to our mission as well. So the first step to sort of get back to your question is, who will we interview? We unfortunately, or maybe fortunately, get many more applications than we can interview, just the physical nature of things. - Right. - Right. So the people we invite to interview, we want to have some assurance that they know what they're getting into in terms of the medical career. And so some sort of exposure that makes us think that they know what they're getting into, that they're truly compassionate, both in terms of other individuals, but also this is a career. And they have the economic qualifications. And we sort of, from that group, we go to the next step, which is the interview and from there to the committee deliberations. - What you mentioned that, and I've heard this frequently, and we use the same phrase that applicants need to know what they're getting themselves into. And this last year has been a little disruptive. But a lot of students have had some of their activities canceled and they're shadowing things, you know, post-poned. And what has been your messaging to your admissions committee members at those that are screening applications? What to expect this year when they're screening and reading applications? - So, you know, we were very sensitive to that, to the world we live in. We know exactly what you're speaking of. And, you know, we very much take that into consideration. Their coursework may also be disrupted. So they may be taking pass fail instead of a graded course. And we're sensitive to that issue. And there are many different angles to look at to try to get the same information. I can tell you there was no shortage of reading applications and people finding examples of where they've been exposed to healthcare in some way. It may not be the typical shadowing, but there are other ways of doing it. And the applicants have shown this, you know, no difficulty showing this. And so, you know, it may take different, it may be volunteering in a health related type activity just as one example, you know, hospice, but this doesn't have to be that, you know. And, you know, and thus the student had the ability to reflect and show how that was meaningful in terms of their determination within themselves that this is the career for them. I mean, you know, not only do we want, I mean, we want successful graduates. We have a societal responsibility that for graduating good physicians, caring physicians, competent physicians. This is a lifetime. This is a huge investment for the applicant in terms of cost and time. And the one thing, a real disservice to an applicant is if they're pursuing this because somebody else told them they should do that or they think they should do this without any grounded reasoning. They really, this is not a simple decision. And the application should be able to express how they got to that point. - Yeah, very important. Leah, you had mentioned a little bit ago that one thing that UT Southwestern is known for as a being a powerhouse in research. So when it comes to applicants and research experience, do you expect to see that in an application or is it required to apply? What if I don't have a search? - Yeah, we give that question a lot. Research is not a requirement. It's not a hard and fast requirement for admission. We have many successful applicants every year who have not done research. So no, it's not a requirement. What I typically tell applicants is the value add, right? If you've done research, if you've done some research project or research during undergrad, it's something our committee loves to see. I mean, it's a value add to the application, especially if that research is culminated in a publication or post-derivation or something like that. But it's quite a misconception out there, I would say among our applicants, that they need to have research to get into UT Southwestern. And that is certainly not the case. We typically advise our prospects to follow their passions. If they're really passionate about something else, maybe they've dedicated a lot of their time to that and maybe that's community service or different global health or something like that. And they haven't had the opportunity yet to do research. Once they're in medical school, they'll, as you've heard, have so much opportunity to sort of pursue that. So certainly what I tell applicants included in your application, discuss it at length. If it's something that you have really been involved in and been passionate about. But if you don't have it, don't sweat it. You can absolutely still apply and absolutely still be a successful applicant with our school. - Dr. Rubin, you do wanna add something? - Yeah, just to underscore that. I think as Maria was alluding to, it's not just research, but any kind of extra-curric activity, we want it's much more desirable to see somebody pursue their interest. Not have two hours of this or five hours of that, but if there's something that they're truly passionate about to pursue that and have an experience that's meaningful and they can reflect upon, I think is important. And so it's true for research, it's true for many activities that people sometimes undertake. - Dr. Moholik from a student affairs perspective, if a student comes to school without research experience or passed, does the scholarly activity help them? You teach them how to do research? They're not a disadvantage, I guess is what I'm saying. - Absolutely not. And we've had students who've never done research, get on fire with research once they're in medical school and they have that first experience. - Yeah. - And then they go, we've had people apply to the MD-PHD program as a straight MD and then just fall in love with research and then take it to that next really level, huge level of becoming a physician scientist. So absolutely you can come in without experience, get some research experience and really learn about what it's all about and then take it to the next level if that's something that you find is your passion. - Yeah, I wanted to spend a minute on that because I find that students when they're looking at research intensive institutions like ours, they're mildly kind of freaked out if they don't have research background and they're intimidated by that and feel that they're gonna be behind their classmates if they come in and don't have that kind of experience. But I think they should be reassured to hear what you, all three of you just said, which is basically, we'll help you. We'll teach you how to do it. And it's a good chance you're gonna, like you said, Dr. Mahal, you're gonna be lit on fire and go after something your own project when you're there. So which is exciting. I think how many applications did you got? Do you guys see a bump in applications last year? - Yeah, we received about 6,500 if you include our MD, PhD program. So that was about a 20% increase that I know is aligned nationally. So yeah, we received a lot of applications last year. - Yeah, and are you on the same track this year yet? Do you know? It's kind of weird to compare year to year from last year to this year 'cause everything was delayed and goofy. - Right. If you look at, we're part of the TMDSAS, consortium being a Texas school. And we're maybe not gonna be quite as high, but we're certainly trending higher than, you know, previous to EY21. So I think we're gonna see a pretty high number of applications that came this year. - Well, I'm glad you mentioned that you, the students have to apply through TMDSASAS, I get all those, 'cause I don't usually work in that area. What's the difference? It's just compared to AMCAS. Is it just, they have to do two applications that they're applying to non-TMDSAS schools and is it kind of the same process? - Yeah, I mean, it's a very similar process. Most schools in Texas, though not all, are part of this TMDSAS system, which stands for Texas Medical and Dental School Application Service. The name's a little misleading, because we also have our veterinary partners in there as well. So by and large, most Texas institutions are part of TMDSAS, meaning if you want to be considered for UT Southwestern or many of our pure schools, you need to submit an application, your primary application through TMDSAS. You can certainly apply to non-TMDS schools as well and also apply through AMCAS. The process is quite similar, I would say. I mean, we're looking, the applications themselves are very similar and the sort of nuts and bolts of the process are very similar, but being in Texas, we like to do things a little different to our studies. - The other things are own way. - So you would need to apply via TMDS for us to consider you. So you get through these five, six thousand applications and whittle it down to about what I found or a little like seven to eight hundred interviews. You guys interview on Saturdays, right? Is this a conflict with Aggie football and Longhorn football? Does this, do you work around? Is that a problem for people? It was intentional to sort out their motivation. Football game or medical school? That's right. Really boiling it down to the, to the what, what really matters. So, oh, that's great. So what's that day? So the Saturday comes, you're doing it, I guess, virtually again this year too? Yeah, it's all virtual. Last year was our first year of virtual interviews and we decided it would, it was just in everyone's benefit to continue along that path this year. So I would say virtual interviews are fun. They're not that, that different than in person. I mean, they spend about a half a day with us online and they, they log in at about 830 in the morning and they, they hear a Dean's overview with Dr. Mahalek or one of her fellow associate deans. So they get to hear sort of a medical school curriculum overview and so forth. They'll listen to a live student panel. We'll usually get about five or six of our current students to get on and speak with them for about an hour. And then they'll go off and they'll do their, their interviews. So our interview process, we have a pretty traditional interview format. Our students, our applicants each interview with two different faculty members and two back to back 25 minute interviews. And as Dr. Ruben alluded to earlier, the interviewers really just have their primary essays, their secondary essays and then their activities section in the TNVSAS application. So they know a lot about sort of what they've done from a sort of activities standpoint. And they're really just conversations. We like to call them conversations versus interviews because they're really just a great opportunity for our applicants to connect with a couple of our physicians here or PhDs and sort of add some color to their paper application and talk about their interests and why they want to go to medical school and why they see their backgrounds as being really great fits with UT Southwestern. So that's all part of that Saturday interview day. And then we come back together for some just optional hangout and Q&A time. And that's really the interview day. We like to think it's pretty low stress and it's fun, though I know applicants are always - Oh sure. - throwing in. It's fun to talk to them on the other side. And they say, well, that was actually just such a great and - Easy. - Yeah, yeah. The interviews, the faculty interviews, so they're blinded to the metrics. Do they have structured questions they have to ask or is it just kind of a, it's conversational? I don't have any specific questions. I'm required to ask you. - Yeah, there's no. We don't dictate to the faculty interviewers exactly what questions to ask. So it is more conversational in nature and based on the information that was provided to the interviewer. Many times we do provide like some behavioral type questions that our interviewers could ask if they want. And we sort of guide them through that through different interviewer trainings at the beginning of the season. But it's really up to the interviewers to determine what questions they want to ask and what kind of conversation they have with the applicants they're interviewing. - What are some of your tips for students coming to interview on your Saturday, interview days were it? - I would say a couple things. I mean, it's always important to do your research on the school, right? So many, many applicants coming in are gonna be interviewing with a number of institutions. And so it's important to know what school you're interviewing at and some of the sort of key takeaways and the mission of that particular school. So you can really again, talk about how your background and interests align with certain aspects of the curriculum or student life or so forth. I think my biggest piece of advice, especially in this sort of virtual world is we have so many students who are so worried about the sort of technical aspects of the interview. And rightfully so, right? It's stressful. You can't control for all of the sort of things that happen. - Little hiccups. - Yeah. - And so, we really try to reassure applicants that will work with them and that, you know, all of our interviews happen. And, you know, to just kind of stay calm and be confident and don't worry if something's going to happen. - We'll figure it out. - Exactly. So we'll figure it out mentality and we always do. And we're sort of there to support them from a technology perspective. - Dr. Rubens, what are your tips to applicants that are coming? - Yeah, you know, I think just, I agree with everything we have to say, just be genuine, be yourself. You know, I think be prepared to hopefully review what you've written in your essays because that might be maybe one area that you might be asked about, not necessarily, but possibly. So I think that's also just be prepared, understand what's in your application. And also be, it's an opportunity for the student to ask or clarify things in their application that they feel like they weren't able to do in the application itself. It's a great opportunity, I think, to think about that. And hopefully, you know, if they're applying to our institution, you know, why do they, again, someone along the lines will leave with saying, why do they apply here? You have questions of the interviewer. Here's your opportunity. - Yeah, I glad you mentioned the, know what's in your application. Go back and read everything that you submitted because I've interviewed people and they're like, I don't know if I told you guys this story or not, but like, well, I mean, it's your application. You may have wrote it, written it. So, you know, you know what you're, what you shared with that school. What about after the interview day? We go on to the admissions committee process. How frequently are you notifying students of outcomes? Is it every couple weeks? Is it every few months? - Yeah, so we operate on the same sort of timeline in terms of Amcast schools, in terms of sort of deadlines and so forth. So we start extending offers October 15th every year. And so that's really the first time after an interview we were really communicating with applicants about, you know, for those who got in at least. So for TMDSAS schools, we extend offers really on a rolling basis from October 15th up until the TMDSAS match period, which is something that we do in Texas for in-state residents only. And the match is announced usually, and well, in the last year and this year, we'll be announced in early March. - Okay, so wait, what is this match thing? - So the match is basically an opportunity for medical schools in the state to fill their remaining seats. So essentially in-state residents who have interviewed at your institution are asked to rank order their preferences for which school they'd like to attend. And then the medical schools on the other end will essentially rank order the applicants that they've interviewed. And then in algorithm, we'll sort of kick in that TMDSAS runs that will really marry the preferences of the applicants and the schools. And that's really based on the number of available seats in the class. So it's a very interesting process. Oftentimes when we think of a match, we're thinking of sort of the graduate side of things to match in residency. This is just on the sort of other end of the timeline. So all in-state residents will participate in the match out of state applicants do not need to worry about the TMDSAS match. And that's sort of a period in our process where that rolling admissions is halted for about a month. So applicants may not hear much from our schools during that TMDSAS match period. But then once the match results are announced in the first week of March, then rolling admissions will resume again up until usually all this sort of-- Wow, that's fascinating. How much of your class is unfilled then in March after the match? Is it a lot or is it pretty much full at that point? It really depends, I think, for the school. I mean, the purpose of the match is to fill the remaining seats you have in class. I see. OK, OK. Leaving the match, your class size is pretty full. But you still experience quite a lot of melt through the TMDSAS and Amcast Traffic deadlines, which happened in April. So in April 15th, students have to reconcile. They're offers down to three. And then usually in April 30, they reconcile down to one. So you certainly still see quite a lot of movement in your class after the match. And many, many students still getting accepted post-match. But you typically leave the match with enough students to personally-- OK. --to fill the seats with. Wow. What about for out-of-state residents? That I read that their state law requires that 90% of your class from come from the state of Texas. So what's your message to out-of-state students? Because a lot of people listen to this, aren't from the state of Texas. But I know a lot about a state resident's applied to UT Southwestern because when we used to be able to see the acceptance list several years ago, a lot of kids that were accepted a case for accepted to UT Southwestern and there from Oregon and Washington and Michigan and stuff. So what's your message to out-of-state residents? We welcome. We love our out-of-state applicants and in-residents. We do have a statutory mandate that's a 90% of our class has to be in-state residents the time of matriculation. But for out-of-state applicants, I mean, we evaluate. them in the exact same way based on the same sort of holistic sort of competency based model. You know, all of those things, Dr. Rubin talked about in terms of what we evaluate. We are looking at those exact same things for out of state residents. I think, you know, if you look at the numbers and the sort of metrics, you know, often times are out of state applicants do tend to have sort of higher academic measures, GPA, and MCAT, and so forth, just because it's so incredibly competitive to get in out of state. But, you know, I was trying to be encouraging out of state applicants and there's nothing sort of different that we're looking for when we're evaluating in versus out of state students. Yeah, that's good to know. What if an applicant is not accepted in your rounds of notifications and they're placed on your alternate list or your weight list? Do you want to hear from them? Or don't call us, we'll call you kind of thing. We welcome them to write us with updates. So often, you know, we understand being on the alternate list is tough. It's tough. It's not fun. I will, you know, I fully acknowledge that. And sometimes students are on our alternate list for quite a long time because you don't know until really maybe June, your class is fully set. So we certainly are happy to hear from students on the alternate list. If they have very significant updates, I think what we appreciate on these sort of admissions operations end is, you know, maybe consolidate that note or consolidate it into one or two messages that you send throughout the season and don't don't even want to talk us. It's not like it's what you're saying. Don't stalk us. But yes, you're welcome to send us updates about where you're sort of at and your decision making process or things have sort of changed since the time you applied or interviewed. Have people sent you and maybe Texas residents and said, I ranked you number one. But I, my match didn't work, but just know that I ranked you number one in my, my list. Does that ever happen or does that mean anything? So that doesn't actually happen very often. I mean, we certainly have applicants who will write us and say, you know, you are my number one choice for medical school. If, you know, accept it off the weightless, I would love to come here. But, you know, typically we're not supposed to really talk about which, you know, the rankings of the match. We sort of abide by different match principles. But sure, we'll hear from applicant saying, you know, I'm dying to go to UT Southwestern. I'm on the alternate list and, you know, please let me in. Right. Right. Okay. Cool. So was there anything about the admissions process that we didn't touch on that you wanted to share with people? Right. Suggest that we also, we look really holistically at applications, not just based on the metrics that we're looking for who's that diamond in the rough that might have not had the numbers, but as an amazing applicant. And so we do have a process to try to catch those that might, you know, not have had the numbers that our typical pool might have, but, but are going to be an amazing kind of they have that it factor that they really are passionate about meeting underserved needs or other other factors that would make us want to take a look, you know, closer look. So we do have that kind of other process. Dr. Rubin, anything to add? Along those lines, we really haven't talked about after the interview and I'm sure you were sort of planning, but the committee itself then meets after. And so, you know, the interview is just one component of the application and the committee, uh, scrutinizes the application in all aspects in great detail. The letters of recommendation, what's written, really everything that is filled out, some of the issues that Dr. Mahal just mentioned, um, and certainly the interview comments. And, you know, we, I think people do it probably different to different schools, you know, I think the applications, as we've mentioned, we have, we receive many applications. And I think these choices are, are sort of gray. You know, there's not an American value in or out, but once we get to committee, it's, uh, you know, these are considerations, every aspect we consider. And ultimately, you know, as I said, it's sort of a, a gray, uh, and consensus in terms of the committee. So an application may be presented by a committee member in great detail, but then it's discussed. And, um, there may be an initial impression of the strength of that application, but then after discussion, that impression may go up or down. And it's reviewing those maybe 15 different characters characteristics of the application. And then we arrive at a consensus and, uh, as a committee. And that's sort of how then somebody's ultimately evaluated, um, where we again, take into all these other, uh, you know, life experiences, background, um, and, and our, our way. And I must say that the committee is also a very diverse group, made up of, uh, faculty from all the clinical, most of the clinical sciences, uh, basic sciences, um, racially, uh, very diverse, uh, gender, very diverse. So it's a very diverse, uh, body, um, making these, decisions. Um, is there anything we haven't talked about today that, that you wanted to, to, I share about the institution before we kind of wrap things up and, well, we're going to be opening a new school of public health in the next couple of years. So we're excited about that. That's exciting. So with that thought, would that be like UT Southwestern School of Public Health? So you, because right now there's like those separate grad programs. That's right. That's right. So right now we partner with a UT Health School of Public Health that's not in Dallas. I mean, there's there's a branch in Dallas, but we'll have our own school of public health. So that's coming out. Very timely. Yeah, very important. Very cool. Well, listen, this has been very enjoyable. Thank you so much for, for this time. You shared the day. Thank you, Christian.