Bum bum bum bum bum bum bum bum bum bum bum bum bum bum bum bum, navy doo bee roar roar roar roar roar roar roar roar roar, bpw. Beena bee roar roar roar roar, bpw. Beena bee roar roar roar, bpw. Beena bee roar, bpw. [Music] You are now in session with the Comic Book Cupels Counseling Podcast. I'm Lisa Gellixin. And I'm Brad Gellixin. And each month we evaluate a different iconic romance within the four-calarel. And in this episode we are embarked upon a long and tumultuous journey, the result of which will be the worthy death of an unworthy man. As first steps in this great endeavor, I have purchased passage upon the seasoned but sturdy vessel. And it is my understanding that there is a certain amount of space guaranteed with said purchase. Lucky for us, we do not travel alone. Do you know who is currently seated on your opposite side? It is Tom King in our Creator Corner. He returns to go full spoilers into Supergirl Woman of Tomorrow from DC Comics. Tom King, however, Lisa, would not put his head on a stranger's shoulder and take a nap. That's true, but if it was my shoulder, I'd let him lie there. Yeah, we'll say. I feel like we grow closer and closer every time we speak. This is an episode we've wanted to have for a long, long time. Supergirl Woman of Tomorrow is easily one of our favorite comics of the last five years. And we've been dying to go full spoilers with Tom. And really, unpack everything that's going on in this really unique book. And we spent a lot of time preparing for this conversation this past week, which was a jam-packed week. Yes, friends, we did it. We accomplished the first ever comic book couples counseling panel at AwesomeCon this past weekend. It was held on Friday night at 8.30 pm at the Washington DC Convention Center. And Lisa and I thought, like, maybe one or two people were going to show up. But actually, we had over 60 people attend that late night panel. I was both beside myself with relief to see that there were people there and also terrified because, like, especially right before the panel, I did not know how it was going to go. Right. Well, we got to the con when it opened around 1 o'clock. And we actually attended the great pop culture debates panel first. We were guests on that debating the best superhero costumes. And we had a great time, but we were also a little bit intimidated by that panel as well because they have their stuff going on. They had slides. They had slides, a ton of interaction with the crowd. They had a voting system in place, a live voting system. By the way, Spider-Man 1, best costume. But when Lisa and I finished that, we were like, huh, is our panel any good? And does it matter will anyone show up? And as the day progressed, and we watched people come and go from the convention center, I've just felt like it was going to be a ghost town. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I was definitely catastrophanicizing of doing an entire panel for just our friend Brian. Which we would have done. Which we totally would have done because he was taping it. And we didn't ever have to turn the camera the other way if we didn't want to. That's right. And we are going to put that panel certainly on our Patreon feed. And depending on whether or not I like the edit of the video that Brian is doing for us, we may also put it on the YouTube feed as well. Link in the show notes. We did take some inspiration from our friends at the great pop culture debate. We had originally structured our panel for me and Brad to talk for 20 to 25 minutes. And then have the audience come up and do like a Q&A discussion portion. But I love the flow and the freedom of allowing people to come up to the microphone just whenever to share their thoughts as soon as they're inspired. So we snagged that from them. And I'm so grateful that we did. I think it really added some vitality to our panel. Yeah, absolutely. And as we've been talking about the last several episodes, we've been saying like we don't know exactly what a comic book couples counseling panel is. And this past week, Lisa and I figured it out. And we wrote a little script. And not a little script. It was actually a pretty massive script. And basically what we ended up doing was creating a pitch for the podcast. Yeah. Where we told people this is what we do on the show. These are some of our favorite couples. And these are the lessons that we've learned from those couples. And it did create conversation with the crowd, which was a surprise and a delight. And I think was really what we needed to do. Because a lot of the people came to the panel. Not because they're like, oh, we're huge fans of the comic book couples counseling podcasts. It's more like there's a podcast called the comic book couples counseling podcast. What could this possibly be about? It was even less than that. People would just see on the banner in the program the words comic book couples counseling. And that was enough to peak their curiosity. And we did get to talk to those people afterward. And they were like, yeah, we didn't know what we were coming into. It just sounded interesting. And I thought that was a victory and tremendous validation. It's good to know that like just the words comic book couples counseling are compelling enough to bring people into a panel. I really enjoyed having time to really talk to people after our panel because awesome con in Washington DC is still kind of finding its identity. No, I think it's found its identity and it's not a comic con. Right. It's a pop culture con. It's where you go to see Hayden Christensen and Rosario Dawson. But from the conversations we had following the panel, people there are primed to talk comics. I mean, we hung out for like 40 minutes after the panel. Like the volunteers had to practically sweep us out of the room. They yes, they did. They literally kicked us out. We were one of the last panels of the night, one of the last events of the night. And people wanted to go home. But you're right. I needed this panel. We needed this panel. And it did feel like community building. And it got me excited at the possibility of more panels. The next comic book couples counseling panel will be happening in Chicago at C2E2. We don't have the time and date just yet. But the moment we do, we will be sure to tell you. And we're ready to give our script a glow up. Maybe if we were feeling brave, we'll get slides going. But I would love to keep that same kind of fluid energy, where people feel like, okay, I have a thought I'm going to pop up to the microphone right now and share it. I think bringing a guest onto the panel would be a good idea as well. And create a little more spontaneity on the panel. We ran into Sarah Meier several times at the convention. And I think they would have been an amazing edition. Of course, if they were willing to be on the panel, they were pretty darn busy already appearing on other panels. And their table was quite crowded around the clock every time we went by it. You and I had discussed having Sarah on a couple of times. But we don't know how things are going to go. We're a little bit shy to invite people to our potential train wreck. Right, right. Which is why this is the pilot panel that we just had. And I think now we have a better understanding of what a comic book couples counseling panel could be. And more confidence that it would not be a train wreck. So invites incoming. I just got to say, I am so proud of us that we were able to do this thing. Same. Like Brad and I, we love podcasting. It is literally our dream come true to be able to like sit at this table and do this thing. But sometimes the idea of doing it in front of people, potential strangers is like kind of like embarrassing. Yeah, we're shy. We're shy. We get performance anxiety. If you saw us before that panel, we were practically jumping out of our skins. And you can ask Brian Young who videotape everything. Because he was with us before the panel. And he saw us jumping out of our skins. Frantically rehearsing. Like if you say this, I'm going to say this. And if you say that, I'm going to say this. And what if this happens? But like we did it. We did it. It was great. Yes. I'm actually excited that the audio is going to come out on the Patreon. And we might throw up the video. I still have not processed my feelings about like people watching video of this thing. Yeah, it's another stage. It's another stage. That also like makes me squishy. Yeah. But I feel like we have now reached yet another benchmark with comic book couples counseling. Yes. And we couldn't have done it without you guys. So thank you to you. Absolutely. Thank you to everybody listening. Thank you to everybody who came out to that panel and who will come out to our Chicago panel, hopefully. Maybe you're listening right now because you came to the panel. And you're like, they talked to Tom King. More than one time, I've got to listen. But I do think it's important to go outside your comfort zone and challenge yourself. And I think we've gotten pretty darn comfortable with the podcast. So now let's take it on the road and in front of people, whether in person or on video. And I don't think we're going to pivot to video necessarily. But I do think we could benefit from doing more video. I still cherish the podcast as an exclusive audio format. And I resent the podcast becoming a visual medium. But that's also just the way things have gone too. When it comes to like going outside of our comfort zone, like as a musician, I work with a lot of young performers who experience staying.
age fright or performance anxiety. And the thing that I always tell them is like, you're under no obligation to the universe to make your art or to do your thing, but you have to ask yourself like, why are you scared? Are you scared because it's scary? Or are you scared because it's important to you? And you just have to weigh like, do I want to do this thing more than I am scared? And I go to panels all of the time, I love panels. I think that they are, they are one of the main reasons I love going to cons. Like I love listening to people talk and think about stories, talk about what it's like to make stories. So I want to do my panel. I want to do our panel. I want to have what we do in that format with a live audience. But you know, it's scary. Yes, it's scary. But I want to do the thing more than I am scared. And speaking of wanting to do something more than it is scary, let's discuss Ruthie and her hunt for crem of the yellow hills, the man who murdered her father. We're talking super girl woman of tomorrow on this week's comic book couples counseling. These issues were originally published between August of 2021 and April of 2022. This is one of the series where every member of the creative team was operating at the height of their powers. Tom King on script, Bill Quasively on illustration, Mateus Lopez on colors and Clayton Cowell's on letters. Oh man, when super girl woman of tomorrow was coming out in singles, it was an event in the Gullix and home. The world would stop. We would pass the issue back and forth. But now having re-read it in just one big long sit, it hits different that way too. I loved anticipating it, but I'm also excited to read it as a trade. Yeah, and we've read it multiple times as a trade, right? And it is one of those stories that only gets better on the re-read. Yeah, you notice more, you catch more, you feel more. I can't remember if the true grit comparison was in the initial solicitations as part of its elevator pitch, but it was definitely something that came up in initial interviews over and over and over again. And yes, in this conversation, we do talk about true grit a little bit, but I've always felt like harping on that initial narrative engine misses the grander theme of super girl woman of tomorrow. And we've had Tom King on the podcast in the past talking about danger street and Batman that braved in the bold and love everlasting. But in each of those cases, we were having those conversations based off of one or two chapters. This is the first time where we've had Tom King in the Loveness to go full spoilers and break down the entirety of one of his works. And I'm so glad we're starting that with super girl woman of tomorrow. What this re-read of super girl really had me thinking about was how we can hold an ideal in our minds and in our hearts and still take a different action and not look at that as like a tremendous failure. I'm the kind of person where like, if I have a principle in my mind and then I make a different choice that runs contrary to that principle, I'm like, okay, well, clearly I have to restructure my entire life and my entire identity because clearly I'm not this person. And I feel like that's like a very super man mentality. Yeah, yeah. Where it's just like, I need to be perfect. I need to make the right choice every single time. Supergirl reminds me like, hey, I can have an ideal and also sometimes make the feelings choice. Doing what I feel like doing or doing something selfish or doing, you know what I mean? Like your actions, what you do, is not the totality of who you are. The way we've been talking about it at home lately is discussing like the best version of ourselves, right? There is the best Brad, right? That I am striving to be. And then there's the Brad that I am. And the best Brad that you're striving to be is not always accessible. Right. Like sometimes like we go to the spoon drawer, there's no more spoons. I can't be, you know, spoons are a metaphor, but I can't be my best self without everything I need. Exactly. So just because I don't achieve the best Brad in this moment doesn't mean I throw out the best Brad. What I love the most about having these spoilerific conversations with creators that I really admire is that I want to know, I want to know actually how they think and feel about stuff. And I feel like when you're promoting a book with the expectation that nobody's, like they're still selling it, they want people to buy it. Nobody's maybe read it yet. Like they withhold their thoughts and feelings. Like I think our conversation with Jason Aaron and trying to get him to admit who is favorite Ninja Turtle was it he's like, I don't want to taste anybody's experience with my Ninja Turtles run. Like I respect that so much, but like I find these conversations so satisfying and this conversation with Tom King is no different. Yeah. And Tom likes to go where you want to go. Yeah. So he's not a David Lynch type who wants to leave it all up to the reader's interpretation. He is with some stories and he talks about that a little bit. But with Supergirl Woman of Tomorrow, he really wants to like, you know, put it all out there regarding what he was attempting to do with this particular narrative. And the other delight in this conversation is discovering truly how much of him and his family and his history is in Supergirl Woman of Tomorrow. This is also a benchmark episode for comic book couples counseling because it is the first time a creator has come on with dirt about us. When that happened, my spirit left my body and it took like five minutes for me to return. We will not spoil that here, but get ready and get excited about that. Now, before we get to Tom King and Supergirl Woman of Tomorrow Lisa, we need to do some-- ♪ Referrals ♪ Sponsored by Omnibus. Omnibus is a modern digital comic book store and reader app carrying your favorite single issues, volumes, and omnibuses all day and date. Just like your local comic book store, you pay per book, but digital. Their focus is on building an excellent customer shopping and reading experience and using novel discovery features to help fans find their next new favorite book. They feature top-tier content and already have many of the top publishers and comics today. So in the spirit of helping people find their next new favorite book, we have our referral segment. The idea is to give our counciles that's you guys further reading of the themes of the episode. Think of it as us sending you to specialists to further your healing journey through comic books. Since Supergirl Woman of Tomorrow has the notions of vengeance and justice on its mind thematically, I wanted to explore that in another series, a series that I was really into about 20 years ago. Frank Miller's Sin City. And in particular, I want to look at that very first storyline with Marv, which has been retroactively referred to or retitled as the "Hard Goodbye." And I think that happened when the Robert Rodriguez film came out, which was also not so coincidentally the time period in which I became obsessed with Sin City books. But in that first Sin City storyline, Marv has a sexual encounter with Goldie, and the next morning she wakes up dead, and that propels him into this vengeance quest for the rest of the storyline. And it just gets gnarlier and gnarlier with every page turn. And if you think the morality of Supergirl Woman of Tomorrow is gray in Sin City, it's practically opaque. This is a Frank Miller book. And as a Frank Miller book, so much of the narrative is happening in captions, also like Supergirl Woman of Tomorrow. And normally I find that to be a burden on the page, but in both cases here, it's critical and the way that the captions and the art play together, but also play apart from each other. There is an attraction and a deflection at times, and it creates this tension between the captions and what you're seeing. And I freaking love that. - Yeah, it's so good. - And both books are incredibly graphic, not in like blood and boobs content-wise, although Sin City has, yeah, is graphic in that way too. But they are so compelling just from a visual stance. You can read them without any of the captions or dialogue balloons or that stuff. - For my referral, I was considering like stories where one character takes on another character's problem in kind of like a selfless way. But they ultimately end up changing themselves over the course of their journey. And so my first thought was actually Tyler Crook's Lonesome Hunters, but we literally just did an entire episode on that story, but that book is available on Omnibus. - I like Loupa and Howard in comparison with Ruthie and Supergirl. - Yeah, yeah. Well, I like the idea of from a distance, Every two people.
are actually peers. Like you might think that Howard is like the adult and Lupe is supposed to like look up to him, but in their story they're very much equals in their partnership. And I think like with Supergirl she takes on Ruthie's problems and she's going like I'm going to teach Ruthie a lesson about you know about vengeance and being the bigger, better person and all of that stuff. But she finds out like over the course of this journey there are ways where they are very much peers. But you're not selecting the loads of hunters. I'm not. I'm not going to talk about it at all. Okay, okay. Instead I chose Petrolhead from Image Comics. The team is Rob Williams and Pipe Har. And it's a post-apocalyptic story where global warming has taken over the planet. Everybody's living in little corporate run bubbles and Lupe's father has discovered these nanoparticles that can eat pollution and save the world. But of course corporations that are making money off of not cleaning up the earth are trying to stifle that research. So they turn to Petrolhead who is a robot that has been decommissioned and sidelined because he still is a gas guzzler. But they turn to him to rescue them and this kind of partnership for him. Yeah, and he is a like like Petrolhead's whole deal is he's a robot who races cars. Yeah, yeah, it's like NASCAR if people were like, well, we don't want to see people in car crashes anymore. But we still want to we still want to see car crashes where someone dies. But the someone is going to be a robot instead of like a meat person. Yeah, and if you're looking for like God tier art like Bill Quix-Evley, Pipe Har is a revelation. A revelation. We actually had a creator cranny with Rob Williams and Pipe Har and Rob Williams was talking about how like he was this enormous fan of Pipe Har but us in the United States haven't really experienced his art and so Rob Williams was like, let's create a comic that features everything that Pipe Har does well and it slays. So both Petrolhead and Sin City the hard goodbye are available on omnibus right now and you just need a browser to get to shopping. You don't need the app. If you have a browser, you've got a comic book store right there in your computer and now omnibus has the option of creating wish lists. Yeah, so if you can't necessarily afford to buy that comic today, you can put it on your wish list so you can buy that comic tomorrow. We've already started using that function and we are building up quite a long letter to Santa. And with that, so ends our so the premise of this episode is that everyone listening and everyone speaking has read a super girl woman of tomorrow because we are going full spoilers. The comics are currently collected as a trade paperback from DC comics and we are also getting a new deluxe hardcover edition on July 24th and I'm pretty excited about that. Also, the entire creative team behind super girl woman of tomorrow has a new comic book hitting pull boxes this Wednesday, Helen of Windhorn from Dark Horse comics. We don't talk about it much in this conversation but we have both Reddit and freaking love it. The book's elevator pitch is the Wizard of Oz meets Conan the barbarian. I can't understand a person who is not excited about that. Okay, all our cards are on the table. Let's get into this conversation with Tom King. Tom, welcome back to comic book couples counseling. Hello. What an honor pleasure to be here. You know, I love your show. I love being on it. I love you guys. It's thanks. Thanks for doing this. Thanks for having gone. Thank you. Thank you. Even though we now know that you and I have forever beef because you denied me my first signing at Barnes and Old. So we're getting that on the record. Yes, I want the public to know. We have not told that story on the podcast at all but once upon a time when Tom King was a newly born author and he was going around to the various Barnes and Oldles and bookstores in the Washington DC area. He did walk into the Clarence store where I was manager at the time. That's my local store. That's the closest to my house. It's a great store. It's a great store and it's not like here's the thing and I'm going to amend the version of the story that I told you when we last spoke. Okay, okay. Yeah, when he told last time was a lie well told. It wasn't a lie well told. It was just I did. You know, used to be in the CIA I can tell you a lot. I tried to come off even less pathetic when we were in person but the story was I was a fresh store manager. You know, I'd been working a long time to become a store manager at Barnes and Oldble and I think I'd been store manager for less than a month when you walked in and I had a relationship with a person that is going to go unnamed who is our community relations manager. Not sexual. No, no, no, no, not sexual. I don't know. That's just what I think. What's the reason that I had a relationship that won't say its name. The good. Yeah, Jesus. They were very hands on regarding events and I had made a couple suggestions about doing signings with them and I had been shot down. So when you came in and said like, hey, can we do a signing for this book? I of course was like, yeah, of course, yeah, let me figure it out. We could think we can work things out here but then as I thought about it, I was too afraid to go back to my new community relations manager and pitched them another signing for them to reject. So I didn't pitch it at all just because of the. You were overwhelmed. Overwhelmed. Yeah. The day it worked. Dear is the mind killer and it killed it killed my signing. Do you know how do you know how it's fucking scared I was in that moment? At that point, I was 30 and I'd been a war twice but I'd been trained for like, you know, whatever, eight years to not talk to people or tell people what I do or that was like my entire training, be anonymous and to go from like story to story, be like, can I sign a book for you? And then you just shoved it back in my face. And that's why I have them one signing sense. That's why. Well, it's being anonymous. You know what I mean? Like asking to be anonymous is always like like I would like people to know my name please. Like what are you really eating in person? Question to ask. Well, you would give it to me. It is a horrible humiliating thing to say to you. You had given me a business card and it was a cool business card because it had like a portion of the book cover on it. Yeah. And I kept it with all the other authors who would come in and I had also not, you know, I brushed off and I had kept it all the way. Even King in the fire. You then started writing a night wing and I was like, Tom King. Tom King, Tom King, Tom King. And then I would go to my pile of members. Wow. And then I was like, Oh, shit. This is the guy I talked to. And then Tom King became Tom King, the Tom King who's on this podcast now. And I had that card for the longest time. And after we saw each other in New York, I kind of went back and called me. My number's on there. Really. You know, you still want to sign a bars of no. John, who is the store manager there now. I'm sure would love to have you as an author event. And he has much more of a backbone than I ever did. Well, I switched local bars. Now I go down route one. So forget it. Now we're done. Yeah. That's what we've all washed our hands and the third did barged. They don't. We wish them well. No, no, they're doing well. They're doing great. They're doing great. They're still there, which is like a victory unto itself. But there you have it. This is a great place now to have a conversation with Supergirl Woman of Tomorrow. Where Brad is feeling so squidgy because we have put this on the record. This is got to journalism from the wrong direction. It just blows my eye because I very much remember that conversation. You remember very few moments in your life. And when you told me that I was like, oh my god, that was you like, yeah, I record my memory attached to your face. I was like, oh wow. Yeah, we were on the second floor. I think we were quite wonderful in the science fiction section, if I recall correctly. And yeah, I also met Brad at a Barnes and Noble. And I didn't remember meeting him at all. That's true. I had sideburns at the time. I mean, like me and my chops. So that's the facial hair that makes you invisible to women. I wanted to start talking about Supergirl Woman of Tomorrow with the title. And I'm curious as to when you knew you were going to tie it with Supergirl's father with Zorrell. Yeah, it's two separate questions. I don't think they linked in the beginning. The Zorrell stuff was, I mean, all that stuff started with me is Steve Orlando talking. I called Steve Orlando up because he had written Supergirl and he's a good friend. And we were just talking comics and shit. And I was like, you know, they offer me a Supergirl. And he started talking about sort of the difference between Supergirl and Supergirl.
Superman. I was like, she seems a little, I mean, no offense to her, but she seemed a little boring, a little generic, a little vanilla. And she's like, no, no, super girl, it's amazing. She, because she's been through something. She's different than Clark. She grew up, you know, she saw, she actually saw the genocide. She was, you know, there when it happened. And Clark, just a baby, and for him, it's just all memory. It's all what happened before he was born. And that's what that different. She's in that, like, clicked everything into place. So it started with Steve Orlando. And so at that point, I was like, oh, I want to tell her origin story in that context. And so I probably started that. So that's the start before the book. But the actual addition of the father happened spontaneously as I was writing it. Because he wasn't supposed to be an issue six, right? Six. And I had written issues, it'll be in the new trade. I'm not trying to sell you trade, but the, I've never done this before. It'll be in the new trade. I wrote an issue six, sent it in and my editor rejected. And so this is not a good issue. Which happens once he wants every once or a while at a good editor. And he was right. I read recently. He was totally dead on. And I had to rewrite it, but because at that time, I was crazy and it was during COVID, I would not give up my schedule. So I'd write six and seven in the same week, which meant I was going insane, because it's like too much to write at that point. I was like, I'm just going to tell her origin story because that's the easiest thing I can think up to right. And that's that's when the father came in. It came from just the desperation of I have to tell stories quickly as I can. Man, that's insane because I know issue for me is like the book. Yeah, same for me as well. It's bizarre how the world works. But yeah, that's to me, that's my favorite issue. I there's two pages of it that I cut out, which I've never done and put them above my, you know, my surgery, green, put it on my daughter's wall to be like, this is how I feel about you, because I love you so much. And she's like, you know, my God, you're just sort of a little crafty. That. But yeah, to me, that's my one of my favorite issues I've ever written, but it was written in a moment of utter panic. I had thrown it my back at the time. I was in a lot of pain. And I was just like, I need to write something very quickly. Because I think I had in the right, if you read the original issue, which will be in the trade, I think there's like one little flashback to her origin story. And that was like, did you like anything about the issue? And they're like, we like that one little flashback. And I was like, all right, fuck it. That's the whole issue. I'd have time to think of a plot. So that would be more. What I love about your stories is that they're so like theme forward. Like to me, they ultimately become these really meaningful morality tales. So you started with the idea of, okay, a super girl is the one who suffered, right? Supergirl is the one who, who had really been through something. And then other themes as you read the story kind of reveal themselves, like this theme of like, um, specialness, like, is specialness just like a construct or is there true specialness in any individual? Do those themes reveal themselves to you as you're constructing the plot? Or do you go like, okay, this is what I think supergirl is actually about. And here is how I'm going to tell tell that moral story. I mean, for me themes, you can, you can be intentional about the questions you're going to ask, but you can't understand the answers you're going to give. I guess is the way I would put it. You can be like, I'm going to explore these things in this book, but I don't know what the answers are going to be in that book. Like, you know, to use another book. Mr. Miracle, like, I know I'm going to explore a guy who kills himself and then comes back and I'm going to explore what it means to try to escape death. And I didn't really know in the beginning what the answer to that question would be like how he sort of finds life. And then as I was writing the book and sort of writing bar to, I was like, Oh, he finds life inside bar to inside his new child. And I was like, that's where he kind of like that developed. So the question was there, but the answer was it. And I think that's the same with supergirl where the question was there of like, um, you know, what is her identity? Who issues a person where where her lines with differentiator from Superman, what makes her awesome. This is very much a book about why supergirl is awesome. And that was sort of the question. I knew if I put her in a circumstance that was cool and that was, you know, that we could, you know, a very simple plot at a true grip plot or a classic Western plot go after a guy find revenge. That I would kind of shove that out there and I've sort of find the answers as long as that that's how I put because you never, I mean, the theme of a book or what comes out is not like if the author determines it, but I'm like, I'm going to teach you a lesson about Marat, like, I don't know. All people are equal or some bullshit like that. Or I'm writing a book that's very much that's called animal pound. It's an allegory book. I love it. It's a beautiful book. But I know exactly what that book is. I know exactly the message is trying to convey. It's it's trying to be like, this is what fascism is. Don't do fascism. Great. But to make like really great art, not allegorical art. You're kind of having a conversation with both who you don't understand yourself to be into the audience as a standard. Understand self to be in your kind of meeting in the middle. I feel like we talked about that before. Yeah. That's, that's, that's the idea. Is it like euphoric when you find the like when you find yourself writing the answer. Do you feel like, oh my goodness, I cracked it. No, God, there's nothing you for it. It's euphoric to read. Like when you read it and you have that that moment with with supergirls father. And you go like, oh my goodness. You know, like, and you have that like kind of like what it's about. Like it's, it's you for it to read. But I, I suppose a lot more, a lot more work is done on your end. It is that I mean, there are moments like, yeah, that moment in particular, like I, I rarely write things that affect me emotionally because I wrote them and made them up with the fuck why would it affect me? It's like, you know, you're just playing with GI Joe's. It's just, you know, it's, it's complete fiction. But like, yeah, when I read that moment and I was like, oh my God, I'm getting choked up. It's something I wrote and made up. It makes no sense at all. I was like, yeah, that, that feels good. That's the one I remember when I got the issue. I was like, I read it over and over again. I was like, yeah, I'm so good. You know, you just, you get, you get arrogant about it. I was, and then of course, you know, we were reading that book. So the issue came out. I was like, look at this. Look what I did. And you know, just get the kind of crickets to get. God fuck. Yeah, I mean, you know, when, when those issues were coming out, like I, I remember thinking, I remember the conversation around it was like not enough people are reading this comment. Yeah. And, you know, you're partnered with Bill Quizz Evli, who is doing like God tier illustration. So I imagine also when you're getting the pages back and seeing the themes then presented back to you through this vision. That's like that you have a similar experience that all readers have. You have revelation. The first time you get those pages back. I do. And I have a, I write full scripts. So all my dialogues in the scripts and they put them on. But there were quite a few moments and super girl was like, I have not written to the level of the art where I was like, okay, we got to pull this back and make this a little more fancy, a little more, especially you know, Ruthie has that way she speaks, which is like this like, you know, Western pattern by using these big dictionary words. And so like I was constantly being like, I have to make this more beautiful, a little more esoteric, a little more weird because that's what Bill Quizz is giving me and I got a chest to it. Yeah. Yeah. Her, her was a revelation. I knew she would be fantastic. It wasn't like a surprise. So I wouldn't say anything like that. But, um, every time I got pages back, it was better than I expected it to be, which is all this is my experience with her ever since. Yeah. She's obsessive and she was super fast on that book. Like that book was, I wrote that book. After Mr. Human Target, Human Target came first in Supergirl. I wrote those in a row. And Supergirl came out before Human Target. She was so much faster than Smallwood. So it was, it was, it was funny. That's, that's also interesting. I love hearing that. It's not a race. It's no, no, no. My, my opinion with every artist I've ever worked on is take your time and finish. If you need to take three years, take, I'm working on a book now, which hasn't been announced. I've been working on it for three years now. And once a year, the artist turns into an issue and it's gorgeous. So I'm like, well, when this comes down 2030, it's going to be wonderful. The engine of it all, the, the true grit of it all, were you already a fan of Charlie Portis before starting Supergirl, one of tomorrow? Or did you come to it with, you know, after the movies or whatever? Yes, very much so I have, I have my favorite novels back here. There's like 15 of them, but there he's on their Charles Portis. I think true grits, like just one of those perfect novels, like every author just, like, if I had to be a novelist and I wanted to be, that was, that's what I would want to write. It's like 250 pages of just pure, John Rajeanus. That's like both gripping and thematically deep and has a voice. It's, it's almost like a perfect, you know, everything about it. Yeah. So I read his book. I'd seen both movies. I don't like the first movie. You know, I love old movies. I don't like the John Wayne version. It's terrible. Yeah, it's terrible. It's John Wayne acting, which is the opposite. Even though that's literally his job. You never want him to act like, no, don't act. It's a beach on way. But the new version is real good. The column brothers versions are really good. And so, yeah, so I was a fan of both of those things when I think I just watched with my daughter was probably 12 or 11, then we'd just watch the Colan Brothers version. And I was very inspired by it. And how did how did you bring that to Supergirl? I mean, I deal pitches and I was like, I want to do something that's like this. I don't want to say it was all true grits.
but like something that was, you know, true grit is not the most original plot ever. It's, you know, it's the surcher that's just a little bit of a twist on it. So I just twisting it a little bit more. And so I went to DC. I was writing Supergirl because my Batman editor went from Batman to Superman. I really liked him. Same with Gina Richie, doubt the editor in chief, IEW. And Brittany Holzer, who was working with him, who's now a full editor in, is editing me on Wonder Woman and edited Mr. Miracle and Strange Adventure. She's wonderful. But Jamie and Brittany switched offices from Batman to Superman. And I was like, I just want to work with you guys. I just want, I loved this team like tell me what I can work on. Do you have anything? And they said Supergirl. Those are said, that's the one thing we have. And I was like, great, I'll do a 12 issue Supergirl. There's like, there's no audience in the 12 issue Supergirl. They're like, how about six? I'm like, how about eight? And they're like, okay, but 24 is the 28. It was like a negotiation for how much Supergirls. That's how it became eight pages 24, yeah, eight issues 24 pages. And then they brought Bill, Bill kiss in. And then I pitched Jamie and Brittany on the phone. I was like, I want to do something like, you know, something like a true grid sort of thing with the original concept was going to be Supergirl as the younger one. And someone else as the rooster cockburn character in my head was someone like Mobo would be the easiest version of that. And there was like, I'm kind of a pause. I can't remember what Jamie or Brittany, they can fight over it. But one of them said, what if Supergirl was the rooster cockburn character? It wasn't me. It was definitely not me. And I was like, oh my god. And that just that opened up the entire book. That changed absolutely. Because then she went from being, because what Steven, I already had that conversation about her being, you know, having gone through something. I was like, oh shit, she's the veteran. She's the grizzled veteran. She's not the young naive who's going, she's that. And she's someone who will learn from the young naive and also teach the young naive. And that that's where it sort of started. Yeah. And that was before it was called Woman of Tomorrow. I think we came up with that title after we sort of, did we nail, I looked it up. I didn't, I never wrote a pitch for it. I did all the phone. So, and then they they approved that. And then we were off the races. Yeah, I think it's like one of the things that at least when I get frustrated the most with when we're seeing people talk about Super Girl Woman of Tomorrow as they put so much emphasis on the true grit engine, the inspiration to the story. But like Woman of Tomorrow then goes off in directions that true grit definitely doesn't. Yes, that's what it is. Ultimately lands. It lands on a resolution that is nothing like what Charlie Portis gets where Charlie Portis ends up. Yeah, I mean, true is that that was just like a little bit of frame to get us out the door. And then you know, that yeah, there's genocide, there's space pirates, there's Super Girl's origin story. It immediately sort of goes off of that. In the same way, you know, up in the sky, which is a very similar kind of story is like the searchers. It's him just looking for a little girl. But it's nothing like the actual searchers move. It's kind of just takes that kind of it. You know, but that I mean, that's what all plots are. Even Hollywood, you see them constantly pitching you like, oh, it's men in black, but you know, in medieval times. It's like that's every one pitch I've ever heard is like I'd watch that. I love starting in a saloon though. One of my favorite lines that grounds the whole story for me is when Super Girl is interrupted by, you know, Ruthie's crisis. And she says, I'm going to finish my drink because it's my birthday and I deserve it. To me, it's a story about like nobody actually gets what they deserve. Like the people who who deserve to be punished don't necessarily always get punished. People who deserve to enjoy a drink on their birthday, especially if they're a woman, never get to enjoy a drink on their birthday because because of the principle of you have to do something. You have to you have to take care of something, you know. That became a, I mean, it seems so ridiculous now, especially considering where Super Girl is going. But assets, so we wrote, we wrote true color that issue, lettered it and it was ready to be shut down and DC saw it and was like, we can't publish this because Super Girl doesn't drink. And I, I am fortunate enough to be friends with Jim Lee. It's one of the great things of my life. He's an awesome human being. And so I called Jim, who's our publisher and I was like, Jim, I was, this, what are we doing here? Like this is done. It's ready to go. And he's like, we just, you know, Super Girl, I was like, she's a, it's her 21st birthday. She's getting drunk. That's the most human thing anyone does in the world. Every single person in America has a 21st birthday where they're fucking drunk. I'm not made for this. I'm sure there's some, some, some people, you know, for religious reasons don't do that. But, but most of us have that experience. I know I did. I know many of my friends did. I was like, this is not, there's nothing illegal about this. There's nothing weird about this. There's nothing. And he's like, well, you know, because I was like, could I do a Superman? Yeah, but you can do a Superman. But, you know, it's because she's, and she didn't want to say because she's a girl, you know, girls can't, it's not innocent. It's not, you know, whatever it is, not Barbie. I don't know, but not like before the Barbie movie. But there's, and, but Jim is a very smart, he's much smarter than me. And so we talked about it and he was very cool. And he's like, look, you can have the scene just she can't say there's alcohol involved. So if you actually read the dialogue, there's no way in there where she says that she's getting drunk. So that is so funny. That was the compromise that that Jim, and God bless him for coming, because I'm sure he had to go through hoops and hoops with whoever and standards and practices could do it. But that's like he, he let that go. It is also the first time that we get the truth justice in the American way, lie to like, that's what drinking is. But so, yes, I bet I read did some of the dialogue with that kind of a little bit of that because I had to redo the dialogue because they got all that references to alcohol with kind of that like, I'm not this little petite, you know, like this is something I deserve. Like I work fucking hard. Yeah, I think that's, it probably comes from DC sort of throwing it in my face that she has to be innocent and pure perfect and pure. And I was like, when you say that to people, it's like, it's pressurizing, you know, to be like, you have to be perfect all the time is can ruin a person, can destroy them, you know. I love how much that that conversation plays into the theme of the book. You take a lot of time to point out some of the differences between super, superman and super girl. And one of the great ones is when she's suffering on baritone. And she goes like, he suffered for like 45 minutes. If you can do 45 minutes, I can do 10 hours, you know. But also point out, yeah, superman has a lot of really obnoxious weird enemies and stuff like that. Like, you know, part of the pressure of, you know, being the woman one is people notice you less, you know, or fear you less. Fear you less. Think about you less. Everything less. And that can be both good and bad. Yeah, very, very much. And that that people always think of her is like, are you like, you're been sidekick? Are you what's the use? I mean, and that's both, you know, a meta commentary end in the universe. Both things are true, right? Like, like, she, why does she even exist as a superman could do everything she can do? Well, what's the point in her? And that was the point of the book to show what is the point of her and why she is different. So yeah, that game. It's funny. You say that barrington because it's that's so ridiculous to me because it's no wonderful. That's a wonderful word because that planet seemed after my daughter. That's my nickname for my daughter, Burington. Her name's Claire. And I, you know, it was being, being Claire bear. And then my wife is from a little town called Burington, Illinois. So I just called her Burington. That's why I call her all the time. And she was the one who came up with the idea for that planet. Because we were talking super girl at the dinner table and she's like, and I was explaining like, she's getting drunk and needing a red sun to get drunk. And I said, well, if a red sun takes away your powers, yellow sun, give it to you. What does a green sun do? And there was like, her, and she's like, you know what it does? It gives me an idea for a whole issue. That's what it does. So I named the planet after her. So you say, barrington, my mind goes, oh my god, I can't believe that exists in the world. That's my daughter's planet. At least and I, you know, reread the comic this morning in anticipation of this conversation. And it just so happens that we had also watched the new Richard Link later documentary on HBO Max called God saves Texas all about the death penalty. I don't know. I saw it. Is that any good? It's great. It's great. It's challenging. It's sad. And it was a perfect way to re-enter into super girl one of tomorrow because so much of super girl is about vengeance versus justice. And you know, you learn at the end of the series. Again, this is a full spoiler's conversation. So if you haven't read it yet, this is your last warning. At the end of the book, you know, we learned that super girl brought Ruthie along to teacher, you know, the value of life and the value of not choosing vengeance. But in the process of going on this adventure with Ruthie is sort of poisoned by that idea. And might actually take up the sword and kill Krem. And then Ruthie says, "No, I have learned. I have learned from you. You can't do this." So they don't. I'm taking us all the way to the last page. We learned that Krem has been put into the Phantom Zone for 300 years. Just enough, just enough for him to be ready for any bad. Just enough to have some re-advail.
right? And then we learn that in the book though that Ruthie is writing that we are reading that Supergirl kills Krem. And I like all of that is really working for me. But having watched God saves Texas a scene from earlier in the series, I'm stuck on. And it is what's that planet called in issue. There's a lot of planets. There's a lot. It's the one with the pottery people. Yeah, that's good enough. That's enough of the I got it right here where they where they watched the guy get executed with a. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So Ruthie and Supergirl are amongst the crowd as they watch the brigands be stoned to get by these pottery makers. And Ruthie says, you know, I thought you would have done something. I thought you would have saved him, stopped it. And she says, oh, you did. So I like, I've just put a lot out there. I just want to like, ruminate on it a little bit like where that's how that scene relates to the climax of the book for you. I mean, the whole idea of the book was that Ruthie and Supergirl go on opposite journeys in terms of their moral perspective, right? And then they meet once again in the beginning and the end. In the beginning, Supergirl's like, she's still very much like Superman, you know, I don't killed, you know, the classic comic book. You know, there is everyone has redemption. There's good for everyone. And Ruthie's like, nope, my fucking father was was my hero. He's dead. Someone pays for this. And then by the end of the book by issue eight, they've switched where Supergirl's gone through enough where she's like, you know, what there are, there are things you can do that are bad enough that your life should be taken from you. And of course, the killing of comic beings are the last, you know, the straw that broke the camel's back. And but Ruthie had learned from Supergirl the lesson. And so that they come into conflict. They're in the same conflict. They were an issue one, but now they're on the other side. And it's and and and and Ruthie, because at this point, she's the hero. She's kind of turned into Supergirl. She saved Supergirl from making this big decision of feeling. And in her way, she, you, Supergirl thought she was saving Ruthie, but Ruthie saved Supergirl. This kind of the whole, the pattern of the entire book. So we go back to that issue with the, the potters. I think of ex the fires. Yes. I mean, to me, in my mind, the way I, I think of it is, I, let's, let's say Superheroes exist in our current world, like it is. I don't think Superman stops every death penalty case and overthrows the government. I think he, I mean, probably he spends all his money on to make sure everybody is super innocent, but I don't think he's willing to overthrow entire systems. And we've, comic books has explored this many times. I think probably best in squadron Supreme, but we did it in Kingdom come. We did it in a thousand things that win Superheroes kind of enforce their own morality over a governmental system that kind of leads to fascism. That's kind of the great theme of comic books. And so to me, that was the moment where Supergirl was like, I mean, she's, she's transitioning. She's in the middle of that transition. I told you about. So that's why she's like, I'm going to let the system do what the system does. She hasn't quite a fully transitioned. So she's like, I wouldn't kill this guy myself, but I'll let this, I'll let the machine rule. I appear, I paired the stoning scene with actually another moment from the final issue. And it's the moment in narration where Ruthie asked Supergirl, do you hate the brigands? For doing all of this genocide. Supergirl replies, no, Supergirl doesn't hate. And that's where we get the line from Ruthie is like sometimes a lie well told is equal to or better than the truth after the handwashing scene where Ruthie asks her directly, did you ever get vengeance on the destruction of Krypton. Supergirl replies, no. And in that Ruthie hears a lifetime of regret. It would technically, I guess, be against Supergirl's principles to get vengeance. So like to me, it's just like how you live according to your principles sometimes is in direct conflicts to how you live inside your heart. You're like, I want vengeance inside your heart. You look like I really do just kind of want to see this person stoned. Like I just want to see this, this motherfucker killed you know what I mean. So it's just like like to me, it's you know that constant pull of like, do I live in this moment. Do I live it in accordance to my principles or do I live in accordance to what my heart actually like what I actually want, you know, probably actually feel. Yeah, that's why I think supergirl is a, I mean, I think superman, I fear character ever, but there's a complication for us. Superman doesn't have and that she is conflicted like she lands and she's 14 and superman tells her, okay, these are our ideals. This is how great is she might as her cousin. She's like, yes, I should live up to those ideals. That should be me. But that's not where her soul is in the same way Superman like he's one to one is like my soul and my ideals are 100% lined up there in touch with each other. And that's where they want to be where supergirl her soul is like a little bit misaligned from that because she's been through shit because she's seen real because she's, you know, seen evil variant she realize that, you know, Superman's idealism isn't quite who she is, but she wants to live up to it. So like, you know, she's going towards the goal, but that's not naturally her and that makes her a much more interesting character. When I was a kid, I read Batman the cold, I think of Starlin and Wright's and I remember I couldn't, I mean, it was no one doubts that's a masterpiece of a book, especially the heart, but I couldn't stand it as a kid because Batman loses in it. He joins the cult and then Robin, I think it was Jason saves him. And I was just like Batman would never join a cult like that's just not a thing that I could accept as a little kid and I think you could say the same thing like Superman would never get to that point in issue seven where he's ready to kill cream like that's just not a thing super in his soul is utterly aligned with his abilities. He's like I just would not even consider that. And I'm speaking as a guy who made that mistake like I cast flash in a role in Heroes in Crisis that he just was not prepared for so I made that mistake myself. So that but you cast Supergirl in that role and you say she's not she's not she likes those ideals she loves those ideals of Clark has, but that's not who she, I mean, dude, I love the ideals of being, you know, skinny and healthy and every day I fucking eat too much. Like, you know, that's just that's what it means to be human, you know, and and and supergirls a little more human than Clark is despite the fact that she's actually more alien. Well, you spend so much time thoughtfully constructing the beats that get us to, you know, I learned, I learned supergirl. And you know, when we have the issue with maple and we learn what the blues did to the purples and then we get to the issue with supergirls origin and the death of Krypton and how Krypton didn't die in a day was actually a long agonizing death and she experienced it. You know, on the journey to get to Creme, it's one apocalyptic event that she witnesses after another. So then when we get to that moment, that conflict of what Lisa's talking about, who I want to be versus who I am. And that question mark, I think you know, for Lisa myself, I mean, we're zero did on that question mark. Yeah, I mean, my feelings are very complicated on that too, you know, you you think I do think you can do things in this world that you deserve not to live anymore, but I think the justice system isn't perfect enough to make that determination. So then we get that that's kind of my where I come down on that issue. But there I can see people being like, no, there's no reason ever take a life. So that's what Superman would say so I would get an argument. I'm the fucking guy who joined the CIA and went out with guns because I thought what happened in 9/11 was so terrible it was worth going to war for it. So obviously my moral compass is a little weird. Well, but that because of that, I think really makes super cool woman of tomorrow interesting is it comes from that guy. Yes. Yeah, it and yeah, very much so. And I could have had it the other way I could have had super girl actually kill him. And I think DC probably would have let me do it just because the book was kind of at that point becoming a little bit of a phenomenon, but I know it to me that the lesson of again, I've written books that are kind of, you know, more ambiguous, but the lesson of this book was always supposed to be why a super girl awesome. And it's stupid to say that's the big up the big theme of the book because that's a dumb theme. I'm sorry, it's not like it's like deep and shit's like grand worse would never say like, oh man, I see also super. But that to me that was it. I was like, I want to just make her awesome. And so the idea that her lessons get to Ruthie and change Ruthie and then save herself so she's kind of, you know, she's saving herself in the end of the story. But that last page. Yeah, it comes out of the phantom zone. The ambiguous last page is not supposed to be ambiguous. He has been redeemed or at least he has.
sought redemption. - Yeah. - And, but he is not forgiven. So he has been rehabilitated, but not forgiven by Ruthie and Ruthie cracks him on the head and he goes down. - And I, and I go like, oh, it looks like he's dead. You know, his eye is holding his head and then he's flat and silhouetted. - Can I like, no, that is not like, this is what we were arguing about this morning. - You are not the first people to have this argument. - It's supposed to be open ended. It's like, are you a glass half full? Are you a glass half empty? - It's the killing joke. - Yeah, the killing joke. That's how I interpreted it, but apparently it's not the case. - I think it's too comical for it to be an actual murder. - It sticks this funny. - It is, I rarely comment on the like, Mr. Miracle has a very ambiguous ending and I like, I know what it is, but I never tell people, but this is not as supposed to be ambiguous. He's supposed to be alive. - Okay. - That's why he grabs his head. - He, he, yes, that's, he's, I mean, I feel in my heart of hearts that Alan Moore did not think that the Batman killed the Joker at the end of that book, but he's like, well, now that it's a mystery and people he's reading it, I'll never admit it. So I really should come down the other side and be like, yes, I was being very mysterious, but no, no, it was, it's supposed to be like, yeah, Ruthie does not forgive him. Ruthie still fucking hates him, pops him on the head and then walks away. Like that's supposed to be. - Would I? - Maybe Bill could, you know, we're both storytellers and there's no words on that page. So you'd have to ask Bill, 'cause what she thought, 'cause she kind of did the whole thing. So. - When I taught at a, when I taught at a school and I would have to do recess duty, what have my like subversive things that I would do is when kids would come up and go like, you know, like, you know, like, I'd apologize to so and so, and so and so didn't, didn't forgive me. And I would always say, they don't have to forgive you. You've done everything you can. They don't have to forgive you. I think that's one of life's most valuable lessons. It's like, you apologize all you want, nobody owes you anything. (laughing) But I don't know. - I'm wondering if I can find my script and to see how it ended. One through eight here. - Oh man. - Let's see what the actual descriptions are. - Yeah. - Let's do it. - Live comic booking. All right, let's take a second to my student, pure. I write in one big document. So one through eight are all in one documents. I think you wanna look. - That's good. - Control F, Control F, there it is page 24, it's on 213. So it's characters, so this is the panel by panel. Characters in silhouette, now red sun rising in the background, Ruthie punches Krem in his stupid face. Panel two still in silhouette. It was paralleling the first page. So I was, I was, but this, but this sun was doing the opposite. Krem falls aground and con, still in silhouette. The Krem falls aground unconscious. So not dead. So that's the unconscious. Ruthie walks away, still in silhouette, Ruthie gone, Supergirl and crypto walking off. And then it ends with Krem knocked down the field, the sun rising still in silhouette. So, Bill gets added the hand going to the head. That's her, not me. So she made it clear than I made it, but they're still alive. - Unconsciousness is just like, the death is ultimately unconsciousness, isn't it? - Yes, good points. All right, who knows? Who knows? I should never admit to that. No, it's very, it's supposed to be, no, I mean, I very much meant it to be, he's back, he's redeemed himself, he's worked on himself that, that people can always be redeemed and Supergirl was right about that, but, - I love that. - Ruthie never forgives him. Ruthie's still alive. He took my father from me, fuck you. - Yeah. - And Tom, you don't have to really like, talk on this element then, maybe Lisa and I can just talk it out too, but again, if you wanna talk about it, you can talk about it. The idea that, Ruthie writes in her book that Supergirl does ultimately kill Krem. The impression that I get, Lisa, and we haven't even really talked about it, is that that was a way to remove any retaliation from Ruthie, that the retaliation would go toward Supergirl. - I think like one of the themes was like, Supergirl is there to suffer for other people. Like that, she sees that I'm very much part of her purpose. There's like this beautiful moment after, I think it was after a maple where Ruthie goes to fly on Supergirl's back and she says, "I put my weight on her." "I put my weight on her." And the moment at the monastery, where Supergirl says, "I'm going to look at this, "you're not going to look at this, "I'm gonna spare you this thing." So I think like Supergirl killing Krem for Ruthie was to take the suffering of having killed someone off of Ruthie's shoulders. Like that's how I interpreted it. - Yeah, that's exactly what it was. It was that she had to write that in the book so that the whole Brighans would not come after her and that they would come after and Supergirl would take that. And to me, that comes right from that issue six where Supergirl's like, "The whole planet's dying, "why am I the one person that's chosen to get off of it?" And he's like, "It's not fair, it's, "but I'm your father and I'm gonna save you." He's like, "Yeah, it's, she's right." He's like, "We didn't draw lots, we didn't do justice, "but I don't care about anything, "subsaving my daughter." And so, I think she feels ultimate guilt from that. Like she should be dead, like someone else should have gone in her place and I think that makes emotivate sort of put other people's pain on her because she's like, "I'm making up for the pain "that I caused by sort of taking someone else's "slot on that ship to me." - One of my favorite contrasts of Superman and Supergirl in this story is that Superman lived his life being special. He was on Earth, he was the only Kryptonian and he was pressured to keep his specialness a secret until his specialness was so big that it became like this enormous responsibility and something that he gives. And Supergirl's thing is like, I'm not at all special. I'm not special because of anything but circumstances. And when she has almost lost fighting the brigands and she is clubbing unconscious but not dead, (laughing) real through the atmosphere of the Earth. But what waked her was not to save her own life but to save the memory of her father. And this idea of like, our specialness is just kind of a lie that is as good as maybe better than truth. Where it's just like you're not actually special but you tell yourself a story about being special and that gives us all the will to live maybe. - I think that's dead on. That moment comes from my mother died unexpectedly 10 years ago and what I think was when we're all to die don't expect to be honest, they don't prepare their house. You go through their house and you're just looking for all their secrets and stuff but there's nobody there to tell you. I mean, you don't know what it has to do with. And so I had to sort of go through my mother's house, my brother and I and I found like a locked trunk and I had to pry the lock off to see what was in it. And it was all her papers of like, 'cause her parents had died unexpectedly. And so it was like all like her, her mother's yearbook from high school and her father made ribbons and so it was like little ribbons from her father's factory. And from that to my elementary school grades, all like the little things you say that's all this one. And I remember just going through that, my brother is very, my brother is an odd person, he's very religious and so he doesn't give sort of a fuck about that kind of stuff. He's like, oh, it doesn't matter 'cause we're all gonna meet again and have in one day. - Yeah, yeah, yeah. - And I was like, nobody, like my grandparents are long forgotten and nobody knows about them. I was like, now it's like, I'm the only one who has these memories. I'm the only one who cares about any of this shit. So like, some of this, it's a burden that comes on you that be like, no, you have to kind of wish it for something like that. That's what I was trying to get at, that idea. Like, there's only, I'm the only, like my beloved grandmother from other side, you know, she passed away. She was not at all famous, no one knew her, but she was so important to me. And I was like, oh, sometimes I was like, man, I just gotta live my life so that someone remembers my grandmother 'cause she was so awesome, you know? Sometimes you do. - And I feel that very much so. I mean, that's, you know, my grandfather, Grant Gully-Gullixin, yeah, like when he passed, that's what I was thinking about. We gotta protect all of his stories. You know, we have to document all his stories. Like, I talked to my dad, he's like, dad, you and I, we need to get on video. We gotta talk all of Papa's stories so that they still exist. - That's right. So yeah, exactly. - Exactly. - Yeah. - Were you raised religious? - No, no, I know. - Oh, I just don't know. - My mother is Jewish, my father's Christian. I guess Methodist or Protestant, but my father left when I was seven. So we raised by my Jewish mother, who was very, very secular Jewish, was not bought at Mansford. And we had Christmas was like the biggest holiday ever in our house every year, but it still is in my house. See, there was, there was basically, I mean, I have a vague memory, which is probably just made up of my father being like, do you want to be Christian or Jewish? I'd be like, what's the difference? Like, do you want to go to school on Saturday or Sunday? I was like, I don't want to go to school on either.
- That's a memory in my head, but I can't possibly be true. It must be a joke I interpreted at some point into my memory. - Yeah, well, there's this, and I'm just bringing up other books. You have that scene in human target where chance goes up to a stand, goes like, so what do we believe? Like what religion are we? And he's like, I'm gonna support you in whatever religion you choose, and I'll take you anywhere, but there is a game on, you know? - Yeah, that's it. - You're right, that's taken from that memory in my head. That's a silly take ever. - But you end that page saying in the end, they both lost. So like, what do you, what did you mean by that? Like in the end, they both lost because they didn't, like here's how I, 'cause so I was raised religious, and so like I'm always like looking for other people who are like, were you raised weird? That's why I asked you. - I don't think it is weird. - But oh, it is weird. 'Cause Brad was raised secular, and so like, just the way his braid, bigs is just like, so different than mine, and I find it endlessly like amusing. 'Cause, but where was I going with that? - In the target Lisa. - My wife was raised Catholic, like they went to church, but she's defeated in like, in that way the Catholics can kind of be raised going to church every day, but not be super religious. That's how my wife was kind of. - Okay, yeah. - The opposite of Lisa's Catholicism. - Yeah, I don't think so. - We were raised super religious, and like, with all kinds of like weird and random boundaries, you know? So like, so my mom still hates it that I do the podcast, and I just reveal things about myself. I have no boundaries. But, um, boundaries are sacred. So the way I interpret that page is they missed out on believing in stuff, because they chose to instead watch the game. Am I, did I interpret that? Oh, I interpreted it for myself, therefore it is right. - I still look back and read it again. I can't understand what you were doing. - So you were ready to have the human target question. - The question, I wasn't for prepped for that. - That's okay. - And I'll tell you what, they both lose. That must have been a reference to the football game being lost. - Yeah, I believe so. - Oh. - Well, no, no, it was a reference to the way I interpret it. It was a game lost, and they lost. - And they lost out on the thing, yeah, okay. - Yeah, fun. But by my remembering of that was the idea that like, to him, his religion was like that, those moments with his dad, where he was watching football, was that was the equivalent of going to church, but that could be totally fucking wrong. I can't. (laughing) - I've read a lot of books. I'm writing Wonder Woman today. - Yeah. - Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. - So what was the function of Ruthie being an unreliable and narrator? You didn't have to do that, you know? 'Cause then when you throw that in, you go like, well, do I believe anything? Do I believe anything in the story? - It's all the things. - It's all made up. - All right, so I'll just lie that points to some kind of universal truth. Well, I think when your, I fight captions and comics, when I first came into comics about 10 years ago, captions were killing the industry I kind of felt. Like I was reading comic after comic that had the most boring captions in it, and they had sort of lost their vitality. You know, for a while we had thought balloons and Frank Miller came in and was like, what if we replaced thought-milled balloons with captions? And they seemed very vital for a while. And then they kind of morphed back into a thought balloons where kind of the revolution was over. And I'd read so many comics that started the same way with like, my dad always said, when you're playing tennis, you know, never, never tie. Or something like, and then by the end of the book, and that's why my dad always wanted tennis. We always think the same fucking comic, I read. So I was like, I'm not using captions. JMS had written in, I'm looking at my show, in the Supreme, the Supreme book, he did it, remarkable. He had written a thing about how you shouldn't use captions. And so I didn't, I'd used them in vision. But in coming back to them, and I returned to them heavily and super girl, now use them heavily, what I love about them is that you can write things that contrast what's in the pictures so that the captions can tell you a little bit of a different story than what you're seeing. And they're by enhanced it. So it's that idea of Ruthie being, she's narrating the story, but we're seeing pictures of what's actually happening, creates an excellent sort of tension, I think. Tom, thank you so much for hanging out and talking super girl, woman of tomorrow. We freaking love the book so much. And we're crazy excited for Helen of Windhorm. You collaborating once again with Bill Quist. We had a chance to read the first issue, and it's freaking phenomenal. It's the, it's the same. If you like, I keep saying it's over and over again, but it's like, it's the writer, pencil, or ink, or colorist, and letterer from Supergirl, just doing a different book. But with a very, it's a very similar book. I wrote it, like I said, back then I wrote books in a row, and I wrote it right after Supergirl. So even if you're like, man, Tom, you fucking lost it as a writer in the last two years. This was like Tom from two years ago who was writing this. So it's the same writer of Supergirl. And it's written from that same third person. It's about a young woman discovering herself. It was purposely not meant to be a zag. It was purposely meant to be, let's do something that's like Supergirl. 'Cause I just thought it was so cool and special and I wanted to do it again. So yeah, that's what Helen is. So if you like Supergirl, you're gonna like Helen. Well, when it's all wrapped up, we're gonna have to drag you back into the lovness to break that one all down. Sure. And hopefully that last page of Helen is less ambiguous. Maybe you can use a caption. Like, definitely this happened. That's really not the-- I just said you guys the new color, the new coloring, the mate. So Mateus recolored the last page of Supergirl. And we'll see if it's clear. I'm-- I kind of love it the way it is. Get rid of the way it is when you are right and your wife is wrong. Correct. Yes, of course. Of course. I was validated by Tom Kig. At Tom, if you need any signing events at Barnes & Noble, if you need one at Potomac Yards, I know all those managers. I can make it happen today. It's too late. It's too late, man. It's too broke my heart. He broke my heart. Good thing we built a bunch of other bridges. So you can go ahead and fill in that bridge. Awesome. Tom, thank you. Have a great one. What a pleasure. Thank you, guys. [MUSIC PLAYING] And there you have it. Our full spoilers conversation with Tom King about Supergirl, Woman of Tomorrow. And now you know Brad's dark and dirty secret. He turned Tom King away when he was a baby author. But Brad was just a baby store manager. I was. With a grown man's job and a pirate khaki is doing the best that he can. I was so jittery those first weeks at that store. It took a long time before I ever felt comfortable as a manager, as a store manager, real imposter syndrome. I can't remember who said it. But you officially become an adult. When you realize you're going to feel like a child forever. Yeah, I have finally come to that decision or that realization. And I think that was the reason why I finally told Tom at New York Comic Con that story when we were having coffee together. And that is now why he has thrown it back in my face on this podcast. But no, Supergirl, Woman of Tomorrow. That book is great. And I really enjoyed this conversation with him about it. I really see this reinterpretation of Supergirl as such a gift. I was once that person who was like, Superman isn't cool because-- Right. --of two powerful and he's too good. What a boy scout. Yeah, no one can beat him. And he's always going to do the right thing. And I have really come a long way in that conclusion. And I know that we've had Superman for over 80 years. And he contains multitudes. He has so many stories. But I appreciate that Tom King still see Superman as that guy. That guy who doesn't do wrong and doesn't-- and isn't even tempted by it like a little. And I love the way that he gets into Supergirl and what makes her different from him and why she thinks the way that she does and why she struggles with her aspirations. It brought up a lot of old feelings about-- I never found Christ suffering as particularly-- as a child that was baffling to me because it's a big deal. God sent his only son to live amongst us on Earth. And he never sinned once. And then he died for us on the cross. And even as a child, I was like, but he had it really easy, though, because he was born without original sin to a mother without original sin. And he was pretty darn sure that God existed the whole time. To me, I think that's why the Catholic Church had to throw in saints. Because saints, they're not born without original sin. They're screwing up all of the time. But a lot of them still became martyrs. And I feel like that is how Supergirl functions. Like, where? Supergirls are sane. And Superman is Christ. Yeah. Yeah, that's what I'm saying, where I's just like, OK, now we have someone who has all of Superman's same powers. But they experience temptation, like I experience temptation. Gotcha. OK. They've been a bad version. They've been the worst version of themselves. And they know how good and easy that can be sometimes. Like, her struggle is a lot more relatable to me. because I do feel that.
pull of like, you know, like, you know, I've been good for like a whole day and I deserve a treat of being my worst self. You know, Superman was rescued from Krypton, you know, sent from Krypton by his parents and then found on Earth by Ma and Pa Kent and raised with good old American values plus some additional, you know, fortress of solitude teachings from Jorrell. But he was told he was special like every single day. His childhood was ideal, right? Supergirl, especially as experienced in this series where we have that issue where Krypton dies for a very long time and she experiences that suffering and survives that suffering and then has all the guilt and trauma of that survival and then to come to Earth where her cousin has surpassed her in age sort of, right? Because of the whole time slip, you know, blah, blah, blah, business. And she loves and respects and idolizes Clark's philosophy and she wants to join him in the sun and people want to follow her into the sun because she's also kind of in the sun. But it's real hard for her to maintain that, I guess that elevation. Yeah, yeah, like to me, like Superman's love tank is full because he was loved so well by his mother and his father and he also has a life partner in Lois Lane. Like, he's doing fine. Like, when my love tank is full, I mean, I feel capable of anything. I'm making plans, I'm being generous, I'm reaching out, I'm texting my mother, you know, I'm like doing all of the things I should be doing. But when my love tank is low and it can be like low from like the love of others, but just like I haven't been loving myself properly. Like I do, I do want to again, like treat myself to being a bad person and I think where we mean and making bad choices, you know, where we meet super girl at the beginning of this story. And so, love tank is not completely depleted, but it's not full, right? And in going on this journey with Ruthie, it does seriously deplete. And in the end, it is satisfied by Ruthie, you know, and they ultimately ended up needing each other and they complete each other. I also think because of supergirls lived experience, her variety of compassion is going to be different than Superman's compassion. When Krem returns from the Phantom Zone as this reformed person and then Ruthie clocks them in the head real hard, but does not kill him. Supergirls like, I get it, you know what I mean? Where I feel like Superman would be like, you know, like that's a reformed person you really should forgive. Like supergirls more like, you know, I also think that when we talk about Superman through the lens of supergirl or through the lens of ourselves or other people, we're talking about Superman from quite a distance. Like, we tend to talk about Superman from quite a distance. And when you then get into Superman stories and put yourself in Superman's head, you discover that Superman has a lot of the same worries that you do. But he does tend to make the right choice ultimately where not everyone does. And I think that supergirl embraces that when she says things like, oh, supergirl doesn't hate people. Even though she knows she totally does, she's like, the public persona is good, you know? Yeah, yeah. And I think we have a lot more in common with Superman than we think we do. Or that we even enjoy talking about. Or then he would want us to believe. Yeah. I hope everyone really enjoyed this deep dive into supergirl woman of tomorrow. Again, the new deluxe hardcover of this book hits shelves on July 24th. And tomorrow is the release of Helen of Windhorn number one from Dark Horse comics. Coming up next week is another spoiler-filled conversation. This time with Chris Condon and Jacob Phillips talking about the Enfield gang massacre. Our next Scott and Emma episode will focus on Avengers versus X-Men. We've been working on that one tirelessly, Lisa. Well, not tirelessly. We are tired. We are tired. We are tired. And then this Sunday, March 17th at 4 o'clock at the Alamo Drafthouse in Winchester Virginia. We are screening Gamertale Toros Hellboy, the 20th anniversary of that film co-sponsored with four color fantasies. And then at the end of this month, I'll be heading to LA. I'll be attending Wondercon. But both of us will be in Chicago for C2E2, which will have the second comic book couples counseling panel. We don't have the date and time yet, but the moment we do, we will let you know. Okay, Brad. I insist that immediately you take me to a distant planet so I can get who wasted. You know why, Brad? Why? I deserve it. Yeah, yeah. Where can our listeners send their words of affirmation to you? You can find me on most social medias at Mouthdork. If you have words of affirmation for our logo, you can send them to Aaron Prescott at a cool hand fluke. And if you have some words of affirmation for our radical banner art and show poster, send them to Karen Chap at Karen_X-Men fan. Lisa, where can our listeners send their words of affirmation to you? I'm always accepting words of affirmation at sidewalks, I run on Instagram and Twitter. If you'd like to spend more quality time with us, you can subscribe to us on Podbean, Spotify, YouTube, Audible, Apple Podcasts, or whatever app you prefer. We're everywhere. If you'd like to get exclusive, if you can join our Patreon, where you'll get more content including weekly bonus episodes. If you'd like to reach out and touch us electronically, you can email the podcast
[email protected] You can visit our website, comicbook.com, or follow us on all the socials at cbccpodcast. You can give us the gift of five stars in Apple Podcasts, or Audible, and if you'd like to do an active service, why not write a review of the show while you're there? We are fluent and receptive in all five love languages, it really warms our hearts and helps the pod. So until next time friends, keep your love thankful. And your psychic rapport open! Did you make coffee? I did, of course I did.
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