“The UFO Program Recruited Me From School!” [Exclusive Interview]

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Just like that at Lowe's. You have one of the most extraordinary stories of anyone I know. Be sure to tell me the whole story. By all accounts, I was a normal person. Life was great. Things were working out well in my favor. And then things took a turn. Early 2023, I began to unravel. This was like very brutal PTSD. Level of flashbacks. I was remembering and having nightmares of being in the labs, being surrounded with people. I was completely removed from the public school system for multiple years of my life. Shovels marked the start of construction of the new $16 million facility at Baker Victory Services. I was in the gate classroom. I drank the pink drink. It's just that there was a. A progression of more. And what sort of experiments would they have you do and what would they test you on? These UAP, UFO, other materials, they're not flown with joysticks. They're flown through the mind. I would lay in a deep meditation. I would have some type of sedative and shift my consciousness into a set object or some vehicle and become it. Pilot it up and down, move it left and right. From what I understand, what they were trying to do is build a brain neural interface that would reproduce the brainwaves signals that I was sending out. So then you could boil it back down to someone with a controller. That is wild. The people in the program had this thing. They called it a relic. And sitting at the center of the coffee table, it's a literal crystal orb. But the inside of this orb was alive. Whoa. Wow. And as I locked eye contact with it, the inside structure, it adapts and it like changes. Oh, my God. And it's almost as if this object, as I'm looking at it, is now looking back at me. Right. Consciousness is actually the root of disclosure. It's you. Your disclosure. Consciousness, awareness, the fact that the world is not as we see it. It's constantly evolving. Like that. It's the epitome of disclosure. There's a state that researchers call hypnagogia. That threshold between waking and sleep, where the brain is doing something genuinely unusual. It's where a lot of people report their most vivid experiences. The kind of thing that comes up in remote viewing accounts, other altered states research, and some of the most fascinating conversations I've had on the show. Since moving to Austin, sleep is something I've thought a lot more about. Mostly because I don't get a ton of it. Until recently, I was sleeping on a mattress that I've had for the last 10 years. And it was clearly not a mattress. And it was clearly not helping me get the sleep I need. When I finally decided I need to fix that, a friend told me to try Helix. And I'm so glad I did. They actually have a sleep quiz that matches you to the right mattress based on your sleep position, your body type, and whether you sleep hot or cold. I got matched with Helix Midnight with the cooling cover, which I know is going to matter a lot in these very hot Austin summers. While I've loved my Helix mattress for a while now, Helix also recently sent me their ComfortZone, Comfort Adjust Cooling Pillow. I wake up with zero neck stiffness, which for someone sitting in a recording chair for hours is a miracle. Helix Sleep has 20 plus mattresses, free shipping, a 120 night trial, and a limited lifetime warranty. And Helix was recently named one of USA Today's most trusted brands for 2026. Visit helixsleep.com slash jessiemichaels, Michaels with no A, to take advantage of their 4th of July sale and get 20% off. Site-wide. And be on the lookout for additional sales on the Helix site. Thank you so much to Helix Sleep for sponsoring this episode. Jordan Jozek, it is an honor to have you. And you've turned some very dark things in your childhood and life into a very positive mission and message. And I think you're remarkable. And I'm just honored because I know it's not easy for you to do this and to tell your story that you are doing this on our show. It means a lot to me. Yeah, thanks so much for having me on, Jesse. This show has been a long time coming, and I'm just as honored to be in the position here to present it with you. The honor is mine. Why don't we back up to 2023? Because you were, by all accounts, a normal and very high-functioning, successful person. Do you want to describe, just like give a snapshot of your life at the time? Yeah, yeah, definitely. So 2023, I was a very normal, run-of-the-gun person. I was a serial entrepreneur, so I had some successful ventures in business. I worked in the tree care industry. I was working in kind of applied agentic AI in late 2023. That's early for agentic AI. Very early, very early. We were doing some cool things with wildfire prevention and very cool, just like next-generation research to help you. Super proud of what I was doing at the time. And yeah, by all accounts, outside looking in, as well as from the inside looking at myself, I was a normal person. Success-driven, life was great. And then, as you know, things took a turn. Things took a turn when I kind of went through some personal struggles, was going through some relationship challenges, was also working in the startup field. So just very high stress. And getting into like late 2022, early 2023, just with some triggering things in normal life, I began to unravel, for lack of a better word, and unravel in a sensation that brought back what I could only describe as childhood memories that I had not previously recollected. I was remembering a life that didn't feel like mine. And it wasn't just like simply, hey, I was remembering something all of a sudden, and this was like very brutal PTSD level flashbacks, throwing myself out of bed with nightmares. After this kind of triggering moment, just where work was boiling up against my relationship changes, all of it came flooding back to where I was remembering things that like I couldn't place in linear time. So I didn't know what was going on. I thought like, hey, did I just draw the crazy straw? Did something happen to me psychologically? So I did what a normal person would do, right, like went out and sought help, started working with therapists and began to figure out that what I was recalling was actually dissociated parts of my childhood. Wow. And prior to that, what had you kind of conceived of when it came to your childhood? Did you have this kind of linear full memory of it? Not at all. But in that same respect, how many people really think about their childhood, right? Like, do you remember your childhood linearly? No, it's funny. I was just recounting. I was just recounting like my, you know, elementary school teachers and it was a struggle, but I was like able to like do it, but it's not something that's top of mind. Exactly. Yeah. And that was my same experience with it too. It was like I thought to the best of my knowledge, I lived a very normal life. You know, grew up in a small rural town. Things were just normal for me, for lack of a better word. And graduated high school, went on to be a very success oriented person, beat cancer at a very young age. Um, age 20. That's amazing. And then, yeah, just, just went off. I was just, um, uh, like a hardworking, committed individual and life was good. Um, and then the memory started, like I said, and these memories weren't typical memories. These weren't even necessarily memories of just what someone would consider like abuse or something that, um, you know, our brain from an aspect of protecting us from trauma would hide. They were simply things that I didn't even have the vernacular to articulate. So I was remembering and having nightmares of being, in the labs, being surrounded with people that I learned to recognize and learn to actually remember names. And all this went on for about a period of about two months where I was having severe PTSD, remembering all these childhood experiences, lab settings, things I didn't have the vocabulary for. And then I eventually just began investigating my own past because at a certain amount of volume of this, at a certain amount of, wow, I'm a grounded individual. I can journal about this. I'm not making this up. What is this? I began to look into my own past. And what I found was that I was completely removed from the public school system for multiple years of my life. My parents were told a story that was not essentially what happened to me in person. And upon leaving the program that I was admitted into, I lost all memory. of those experiences until they resurfaced in 2023. That's remarkable. So you mentioned memories of being in a lab now having pieced together what your childhood actually was. What happened? Yeah, yeah. So basically in 2004, 2005, I was tested by Gifted and Talented Education. People may have heard the gate or the tag claims. I was tested. With what was the Woodcock Test of Achievement. It's basically like a neuropsychological testing platform. And I was testing incredibly gifted in certain categories. Primarily, there was a huge split between my verbal and nonverbal learning sections. But otherwise, normal kid, right? I was not diagnosed autistic. I was not diagnosed with psychological problems. I was run of the mill, very normal, but highly gifted when it came to some of my applications in academia. That started this runaway process where a team of psychologists, which again, names, records, all of this is documented, but still leave some anonymity here and in hopes that there is some justice later on in life. A team of psychologists began this relationship working with me actually coming into the school system around 2005 to better understand how my brain worked. In reality, as a young child, this was all around the fourth grade. So I'm about age nine now. I was being told to not tell anyone about this. I was being told that, you know, I was a very special kid. I had a very special brain and no one else would understand. So essentially, what this started was GATE was this identifier that said, hey, there's something very special that's happening with me. After that happened, a whole bunch of psychologists began a routine of working with me, not from the school system, but coming into the school system. And essentially started this internal grooming process. And I was being told to not tell anyone about this. I was being told process with me where I would be separated and basically encouraged to keep this a secret as this progression happened. So that carried on for a few years. And if you can imagine, like, take yourself back to elementary school. I didn't really know what to make of this. It was just a lot of testing. There wasn't necessarily anything bad happening to me. Would they come to class and just kind of pluck you from class? I would get removed from class. So a phone call would come in. Hey, Jordan's got to come down to, you know, so-and-so's office. And that's where I would spend maybe, you know, six hours or sometimes the full day. And where did you grow up? Springville, New York. Okay. Small rural town in western New York, upstate area. Very small, like graduating class of about 120 kids. And you're like, what, like 10 years old? Yep. Started around age nine. And for the course of this, as I kind of described, this was between the ages of nine and 14. Okay. And so when you say, you know, kind of. They're saying, Jordan, we want to know how your brain works. And that, you know, you mentioned the word grooming. What exactly are they doing? Yeah. So they were very interested. So a couple of things that I can kind of, you know, give some more context on. One, I was testing very highly in these certain categories. Two, I had a very kind of strong ability to visualize. So for example, like at age nine, one of the things that these psychologists were fascinated about was my ability to spell. Because I was spelling at like a college level. And for me, I had this ability to where I could just visualize a word, right? So it was just kind of in my mind's eye. I didn't know. I thought every kid did this, right? I could picture a word in my mind and then break apart the letters piece by piece. And as I would tell these psychologists this, they were trying to understand how I was exhibiting some of these behaviors. Like they knew what was happening. They were fascinated by it, right? The ability to visualize was something that was a strong point of the, later parts of the program that I progressed into. But at this point, it was just mainly, hey, we want to understand how you're doing some of these things. You're testing very specific, sit with us, build a relationship with us. And as this progressed, what was happening to me is I was kind of becoming more and more isolated from the rest of the kids, the rest of my teachers. As you know, you can kind of look in my investigation level of this. My teachers were not told what was going on either, right? Nor was the full, category given to the school district. It just looked like I had a bunch of absences. I was being pulled from classes. No one really knew who was pressing the button, right? Who really was the psychologist who sent them, et cetera. All of this continued within the public school system to where I was just being tested. Relationship was being formed until about like age 12. So getting into like sixth, seventh grade, I began to recognize that like something wasn't right here. The rest of my friends weren't doing this. I wanted to kind of go be normal. I didn't get what any of this was going for. And at the same time as I was kind of like pushing back almost with these people that were coming in to meet with me, my mother and father at the time, you know, were basically told that I needed to leave the public school system. And it wasn't because I was a special kid. It was because I had grown so unstable that I could no longer be in the public school system. And essentially a whole mental health diagnoses overlay came on board around like 2010 that provide the justification to remove me from the public school system, whether my parents wanted it or not. And that started my basically academic attendance in this two year program outside of the public school system. But to back up real quick, you were fine. I was fine. Yeah, I was fine. Yeah, it was an excuse. Yep. And how did your parents react to all this? Terrified. My mother at the time was trying to remove me, you know, from the school district, not having luck. We tried to move at one point, didn't have luck. I was refusing to go to school at one point. And, you know, people from the school district were actually showing up and removing me from the house. Like it was Stranger Things level stuff. That's insane. It really is like the show Stranger Things in real life, which is based on the Montauk experiment. I'll think a lot of people at this juncture in the interview are probably resonating with some of the stuff you're saying there. There are plenty of gate kids out there. And this seems like the initial layers of, you know, what you've experienced. You experience much deeper stuff. But, you know, there are people out there who have they have to take the pink drink and they, you know, missed a year gap in their knowledge of their elementary school. And so. One hundred percent. Yeah. One hundred percent. And for those kids, right, the other gay people, you know, what I'm ultimately describing is like gate serves as this kind of like outside edge, almost recruitment. Right. Or almost like identifying mechanism. So so many people are tested within gifted and talented education. Not everyone progresses in further. So like, for example, as I'm meeting with all these psychologists early years, I was enrolled at gate. Right. Like I was in the gate classroom. But there was a progression of more. And then getting up to this part of the story in 2008, this was like the public school system in the gate classroom could no longer provide the cover for what they wanted to do experimentation wise. So to do that, you remove that person from that area. You provide some cover justification on why you're doing that. And that game began a two year journey to where I attended school into a nondescript since been shut down, sued six ways a Sunday school that was from the outside serving neurodivergent and behavioral health kids. But on the inside was supporting a mission for defense contractor research for psychic potential development. OK, wild. What's the name of that facility? Yeah. Yeah. No longer exists now. But at the time it was called Baker Victory Services. This center provides specialized services for students. With autism or cognitive disabilities paired with mental health diagnoses. So on the outside, looking in this facility was serving autistic kids, nonverbals, other people with behavioral health. They had nurses, psychologists, psychiatrists all on staff in this school. Think like special education, 811 classroom, only 40 kids total in the facility. So just like highly structured support. Golden shovels mark the start of construction of the new 16 million dollar facility at Baker Victory Services. It's a lot of people watching. They might be thinking, OK, this Baker Victory Services. I'm going to go search it. They search it and they see this organization that seems to still be operational today. What's going on with that? Yeah, that's a really good question. So Baker Victory Services still exists today. It's a much larger organization serving a lot of other purposes, which are like good, right? The organization itself was not the problem. It was the exact location and kind of the element that I was in. So if you want the exact address, like it's very hard to dig up because the facility is closed today, but it was like 650 Ridge Road. It was a small, nondescript building that was known as a day treatment center. 650 Ridge Road. Right. And that was like a subsidiary of this Baker Victory Services. Correct. Got it. So it's almost like that was used as a shell for this other kind of rogue cutout organization. Yeah. Yeah. Now you're talking. And again, like even in that facility, legitimate things happening, right? Legitimate treatment happening for kids that needed it. However, there was just this rogue element that was operating out of it that supported the program that I was involved with. But even with open source research, you do get hints of some malfeasance, right? Yeah. I mean, you can like, it's not hard to find, right? I think like the supervisor was arrested, like 210 felonies. I think the news article reads for like article manipulation or record manipulation. There's $100 million lawsuit that got settled due to just this huge claim of abuse over the years. Human Services says three employees at the Victory Learning Center in Lackawanna are now on leave over those allegations of physically mistreating students. I like to say there's a lot of smoke, right? You don't really necessarily need to find the fire. You can just look and see that there's been a history of problems at the place. That's a lot of smoke. $100 million lawsuit over sexual abuse and 210 felonies and falsifying records. We have a model that works for these young people. And it allows them to be the best they can be and go on and leave lives just like you and I. You know what this looked like is, you know, I would attend school like a normal kid for like two to three days a week. And then for the other two to three days a week, depending on that, I was working heavily with a team of psychologists, researchers, psychiatrists, on to some of the tasks that we can get into. So you're at this facility and they've kind of realized that you're, you're really talented even within this kind of group of neurodivergent kids. And then they take you down to this, this basement. And what are they doing there as opposed to kind of the top level? Yeah. So when I first got into this, you know, facility at the time for like, there was a period about like two to three months where like things were normal, where I wasn't doing the extracurricular, you know, ESP exercises. The weird psychologists that were coming to see me in the public school system were gone and no longer seeing me. So at the time I was like, I'm rescued, right? The weird stuff has stopped. Two months later, a team of interns get hired. And this team of interns specifically work on me in my case. And the same process that I described, like in the public school system, kind of restarts. So new person comes in, positions himself as a psychologist and as a therapist, you know, and begins, working with me to better understand my relationship with what we called at the time ESP. And do you remember their names or? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Without, like I said, you know, I'm very hopeful that, you know, our establishment, our government will do something from an investigation standpoint, you know, if they're willing to really take a stab at this. But let's call it Meg. Meg was my one-on-one trainer slash therapist. Okay. And you've provided this information, by the way, to the Senate. Select Intelligence Committee. Is that right? I've provided this information to, you know, past members of Senate Select Intelligence Committee. I've provided it to numerous three-letter agencies. I've briefed them, given them the locations, the names, et cetera, throughout my tenure of really working in the background of disclosure, fighting the good fight alongside guys like David Grush and et cetera. And to this point, nothing has happened. That's really frustrating and annoying. And hopefully after this episode, something does happen. But so this Baker Victory Services, this organization, it's also a Catholic church or it's affiliated with the Catholic church. Yeah. Affiliated, affiliated by it. So there was the, I believe it's termed the Father Baker Organization in Western New York. So just think like Catholic nonprofit, you know, doing like good things. This was meant to serve more of the foster home community as well as, you know, just develop, um, a community resource for kids that weren't plugging well into the public school system. So it was a little bit normal where you may see like nonprofits step into like special education, get accredited to like support the school system. Um, so it wasn't like a literal Catholic school or Catholic church. It just, uh, more or less organizationally existed within that umbrella. Gotcha. And so they realize, okay, Jordan, you are like extremely talented at some of this, you know, extrasensory perception stuff. They take you to the basement, and what, what happens there? Yeah. I don't, I don't want to make it sound too strange to things. Like it wasn't like going to the basement. Um, you know, like the facility itself, right. Super nondescript, didn't look like a school. You never know it was there. Um, you know, like 2008, highly secure, like the entire thing, uh, had components that would be like comparable to what people have called like a skiff before. Right. Uh, so badge in, badge out, RFID everywhere, uh, no electronics, you know, in the building, even as a kid, right. Really couldn't bring your PSP in. You couldn't bring like a Faraday cage, completely high level of security at this place. And, and I can kind of get into some more levels of security that I experienced, you know, as a kid, because as I'm telling this, you know, I've gotten to a point of, of healing and integration. Um, and now, as you know, right, like trying to fight the good fight to do better about this. Uh, but like, don't mistake the, um, you know, level of like healing that I've done to, uh, you know, really reflect. Like the terror that actually this whole entire experience was like in childhood. Um, you know, essentially it was like being stuck in a, um, you know, a facility where you had no control, right. There were things very akin to, I don't want to really say torture, but, you know, in some respects, um, being given medications and substances and things that I don't even know, um, for purposes of experimentation, like that's a problem, you know, that's a big problem. It's a huge problem. Well, it's a, it's a huge problem, uh, for this to happen to you over multiple years and for them to kind of be grooming you at your school and for your parents to push back to the point of wanting to move and take you out of the school system and for them to keep coming back. Like the levels of coordination implied here are deep, deep level, you know, and, and it's even beyond that. Like I can tell, um, you know, later in the story, I'll, I'll get into some examples of like, well, Hey, if you were a kid, why didn't you try to, you know, do something about this? I did. Right. It's like many times, um, in, in some of the more like rigorous experiments, I would like get out, call 911 from the school facility, but the lines were surveilled. So you would get through to 911 and then immediately an operator would take over and be like, Hey, sorry, someone from the school, one of the kids is like prank dialing 911. So there was like no way in or out of any of this. So you're a kid. And when you're a kid, you can get conditioned into, you know, feeling some sort of Stockholm syndrome and you're told that, Oh, we're doing this for your benefit or whatever. And you're really highly impressionable. And, uh, you mentioned too, that they gave you, there's like this critical window of high heightened kind of extrasensory perception ability and it's before puberty and they would give you puberty blockers to sort of enhance this. There was all sorts of stuff being administered to me while I was in the you know, like on paper, right? Like, so looking back on my own records, like there were, I think over a dozen anti-psychotics that I was on during these like two years. So things like Haldol, Zoloft, like just, just to name a few, just a ridiculous amount of medications that does not reflect what was being administered inside the facility that my parents didn't know about. There were other things that I was being taken. There was other things for specific, uh, sessions, right. That I don't even know. Um, you know, when it comes to the, the level of like, Hey, there's some sigh or, you know, some ability within our brains in a pre-pubescent era. Um, yeah, that was communicated to me. Um, and I believe it has something to do with relation over like right and left hemispheres before they're fully formed, uh, during puberty. But I think essentially it's just, uh, at that younger age, I had a, um, an ability to essentially exert more than someone else that was an adult. So a lot of the testing, we can kind of think this started off very baseline of like ESP, right. So kind of like thinking about extra sensory perception and how that would show up for, for people. Um, and I was told from like a number one day that you can just think of all of this as this was like ESP training is what essentially, um, you know, what's happening to me there, uh, for the idea of this later being utilized in like a defense establishment. Um, you know, style, uh, progression funnel. Uh, but you know, in the beginning, right. ESP and it's highly structured for each person and that's what i would be told right like for example they would be giving me a lot of tests and a lot of experiments and like seeing how i respond or seeing how i would apply this because there was no like uh rubric or there was no like cheat sheet on like you do the same thing every time and it works the same way for everyone i was instead told that everyone's highly unique and you need to kind of develop your own way of doing this uh once you have your own way of doing this will help you uh amplify it right that's kind of a way to think about that so for example a lot of the very early on sessions um would be understanding my abilities how are they showing up from a cognitive perspective did i process information more kinesthetically right like was it more i feel things in my body was i processing it more auditory right like hey telepathy i hear it right um or in my case i was a highly visual person right so i had the ability to get out of my body see in the other room see things from um you know a distance right and kind of shift my awareness uh visually so for the progression of most of the time in these two years i was highly working on visual abilities so sort of similar to remote viewing programs or you know astral projection or out of body uh things like that 100 yeah so we were we were doing a lot different stuff than like you'll see from like the stanford research institute or like the stargate um area where you see a lot of like crv techniques right like control repeatable follow a technical process um i was given a whole kind of different regimen of like training and teaching that kind of relied primarily on getting our subconscious mind to believe that something was possible and i can kind of go into this a little bit more detail so for like a typical remote viewing exercise you're given a little bit of time to do that and then you're given a little bit of target you may have a protocol maybe you're doing some meditation or some you know bilateral simulation or auditory stuff to help you uh take information out of that target you might see it visually you might see it otherwise otherwise you're taking information you know kind of from the field um in my training they were more interested with uh getting me to subconsciously believe that awareness is essentially the substrate of this entire universe and all our awareness can shift into any other piece of awareness in this underlying universe so what this would mean is like instead of trying to remote view into a room or let's say i remote viewed into a hallway but i was having issues getting through a door um there was a lot of subconscious uh training to basically help me understand that my awareness could become the door i could become the room i could become the filing cabinet where the documents are in and then extract the information and then i could become the room i could become the filing cabinet where the documents that way so it was a lot less viewing it was a lot more manipulating your own awareness to become the things that we see in the universe that's fascinating so it's almost like a panpsychist worldview or something where maybe everything is somewhat conscious or everything is at least awareness and you can port your own awareness into what we think of as even inanimate unconscious objects 100 yeah yeah so it's like the underlying substrate of the universe as we want to take it awareness or it is this undefined substrate it is accessible malleable and reflexive to awareness so you can either a place your awareness in it or you could perhaps exert some control by shifting your awareness it's either a possible vessel for awareness or it's awareness itself or it's it's somehow compatible with awareness yeah yeah i tell this story too for a lot of people like you know as we get into like consciousness research now i often use the analogy that like uh you can perceive more as like a vehicle imagine a car four tires right and a steering wheel and and that's how you can kind of think it's consciousness it's like the vehicle that gets driven however awareness is actually what's sitting in the driver's seat of the car right so a lot of things can hold consciousness but awareness is actually that kind of like universal substrate of like the is um and when you follow that perception better you can kind of better understand well like how could you get out of your body how could you shift into something well it's actually not necessarily consciousness it's like that's the holder in the vehicle in the container but there's awareness that's a step deep fascinating so what sort of specifically they would say okay remote view what's in the other room or would they give you a target like in you know we hear about in kind of traditional military remote viewing programs yeah all sorts of different all sorts of different exercises uh i would be given targets a lot of this was like testing right so it's like there there were in in terms of like the regimented aspect like they did have these exercises kind of mapped out um for a lot of the remote viewing or like the astral projections the way that we were doing it like i just described we were actually doing it with a partner so like meg in that example would often like walk through what we call the relaxation exercise right but in reality it was some type of auditorial stimulation right the headphones different binaural beats that were helping me access my brain and i was like oh my god i'm gonna be like oh my god i'm gonna be like different brainwave states um and then you know meg would have essentially kind of like a checklist right and this checklist was to get my subconscious mind to relax this would be like hey we are um we're flying a plane you don't have to worry about flying the plane all you need to do is tell me what you see right so i would be you know continuously walked down through a state of consciousness to where you know i was outside of my body and there was like a partner duo team of uh giving inputs on like i need you to go here what do you see right and then where that actually served a huge benefit is like um in traditional remote viewing right it's very common for a remote viewer to like get to a certain point and just hit a roadblock and just be like i can't get through this but if you have someone else in the experience with you you can kind of riff on each other right so you can think of other out-of-the-box solutions to get your awareness to the target or wherever you're trying to go so everything that we were doing was highly team-based and we were able to um and for most of those two years right this was like um they had some outcomes that they already knew right and this was kind of tracking my accuracy on how good i could get were they using an eeg to map your electrical brain signals so not for like every remote viewing astral projection signal but that was a key part of this uh you know development in the program so uh you know earlier on the chair right i i call it the chair but this was where a lot of my traumatic memories actually like came back in that earlier 22 like the ones that i really didn't understand would be me in a chair um with what i now know now is like a neurofeedback eeg headset but at the time right didn't have the language to articulate it and a screen right with my brain waves being shown and i would be asked like cycle through different cognitive applications okay visualize something um or you know try to communicate you know with the plant right whatever type of uh you know esp level um things like that and i would be asked to like cycle what we were doing and they were watching my brain wave signals right and then i would be asked at certain times to be like hey whatever you just did two seconds ago i need you to repeat that so they were highly interested uh in theta spikes as well as gamma spikes and there was some level of neurofeedback being used to like reinforce this so as i would actually like exert hey i visualized in a unique way well that produced a gamma spike they were interested in how can we get that to hold longer why do you think theta and gamma were interesting to them uh just deeper levels of like neuron level of um uh like symbiosis like for example like in a gamma spike or when the brain's really operating like at a gamma level um it's almost as if like every neuron's beginning to synchronize and almost fire at the same time so instead of just having a reduced brain wave state right um you're having essentially like this is where i'm not a neurologist i'm not a neuroscientist just to be very clear here i'm butchering this up just from my own understanding um but basically i think that there's a high level of amplitude when it comes to esp level activities when somebody can get into a gamma state yeah it's a it's extremely high frequency and like like you know one of the highest and it's interesting that you were saying that they wanted you to access your subconscious it's almost like undergirding your conscious thoughts are these subconscious beliefs i i don't want to interrupt me no please no just to add on that so like that's a huge key part part of like any type of psychic development if your subconscious does not believe that whatever you're doing is possible then your conscious mind will not allow it to be possible your subconscious has to believe it right it's like belief almost equals reality in this regard and i think this applies to like a lot of people when they hear about psychic phenomena they hear about ufos or uap like they're very well maybe a cognitive filter that we don't yet have mapped right like why do some people experience some things why do some people see a uap but some don't right there might literally be like a subconscious protective mechanism where if your subconscious mind doesn't believe that it's possible then it's not going to become possible in your reality your experience or perception and i believe that to be true just because of how much work went into getting um you know me trained on the subconscious level if you can do this you can remove you you can shift your awareness you can do all these things you have to But one of my favorite quotes is on Rieberg's song, uh, the eyes can only see what the mind can comprehend. And that's, you know, I think this beautiful and very telling sort of, and they do, they do these tests where the two, you know, did you see the gorilla walking across the room? Like you were counting the amount of dribbles in the video or whatever. And, you know, people don't see the obvious thing because they're not looking for it. So attention is really important. And they even get into the reticular activation system in the brain and why that is, uh, there are all sorts of studies around that. And then hypnosis too. It's like, you can literally, you know, go to a magic show and, you know, somebody will get you into some sort of hypnotized state on stage, or you could see this in the audience and you say, you know, Hey, you're, you're stuck to the floor. And all of a sudden the person stuck to the floor, they can't move their arms apart. Um, so the subconscious mind is extremely powerful, um, as far as, you know, how it affects, uh, your reality. And, uh, yeah, that's interesting. So they're using feedback, almost some sort of like, uh, Pavlovian conditioning, or you have this partner who's kind of helping you get into these states where you can move around as far as your subconscious more freely, or you can, to put it better, you can, uh, actually change your subconscious beliefs. Whereas you're not, you're not getting that deep and sort of normal conscious awareness. Is that right? Yeah. Yeah. That's, that's one way to think about it. You know, ultimately like the partner, um, you know, level dynamic of this one, it was just kind of more useful for the training, but two, right. You had someone else that could provide a secondary perspective, right. And like just for the viewer, like to imagine this, like I'm, I'm in a deep, relaxed, meditative state. I'm probably like in a theta wave state. I have some level of binaural beats, right. That are helping me kind of, uh, shift my awareness out of body. However, I'm still able to communicate, right. Like through my mouth, right. I'm not like in my body. I'm visualizing I'm way out here, but the act of talking is still kind of something that I can do. Right. And from that, I can still hear right. The partner, uh, that's next to me that can help me maybe understand here's a way to think outside of the box. So if you get stalled, you're trying to get into a different place, trying to get into a different thing, that partner can give you a secondary perspective. That's useful that you can apply back into the experience. Um, so, you know, that's the key to all of this. Um, so like this, this whole different level of like projection and viewing, if you could imagine the way that you viewed whatever you were viewing, right. Whether that be from the third person perspective, or perhaps like I use the example before, if you run into a roadblock, you're trying to see what's on the other side of a door and you can't seemingly find a way to get your awareness there. Well, your awareness can become that door, right? Like that's that idea of, you know, you're trying to see what's on the other side of a door and you can't see what's on the other side of, um, you know, seeing outside the box. And do you get the sense that they want your skills at this facility because of their functional benefit for specific operations? Or is it more like let's train Jordan up to be this child super soldier psychic? So as we've like now seen, right. In this, um, you know, disclosure cycle, you know, the pieces that have been really held back and for good reason, right. Cause here I am, there's massive human rights violations. And I'm like, well, I'm not going to be able to do that. I'm I'm not going to be able to do that. I'm not going to be able to do that. I'm not going to um, you know, but what this was serving, what was this, what was I a part of? Well, I was in a, you know, psionic development, uh, pipeline for legacy program development. So the idea being is I was not supposed to leave this program, right? This was, Hey, for a few years, while your brain is in the state that we can make malleable and train before puberty, um, we can install these things. We can get you highly specialized or whatever your specialty is going to be. And then later on, you're going to end up, you know, being sucked into deeper levels of the legacy program, whether that be, you know, UAP and crash retrieval operations, or whether that be, Hey, our remote viewing espionage or other levels, psionic applications. So this was like one of the aspects of that pipeline that would have went on to serve that. What convinces you that this was sort of a feeder for the UFO legacy program? Because I think some people listening might be like, okay, this is psi. This is extrasensory perception. Isn't that wholly from, you know, nuts and bolts, UFOs, reverse engineering, that sort of thing. Yeah. Yeah. Well, they're not, uh, mainly because I interacted, uh, at later stages with this, with, um, what we consider like recovered materials, um, other language used from inside the program were actually relics make of that, which you will. Um, but I've told the story publicly on, on, on a piece of technology that I interacted with that I'm happy to kind of tell again here. Um, and the story is, is about this piece of tech. Yeah. And this is at the same Baker facility. Yeah. So this, this was brought in. So this tech, whenever we worked with tech and never existed in the facility, what would happen is there would be a team that would bring it in highly specialized, highly structured, never see these people. I wasn't allowed to interact with them, but essentially it'd be like eight security personnel and a huge box, you know, and then I would be in the room with a team of people watching me. Uh, and, and they were utilizing me essentially in the experience that I'll get to. Here next, uh, to better understand how something worked, uh, that wouldn't communicate with them, but would actually communicate telepathically to people with certain types of consciousness. And I was one of them and what we'll find as disclosure continues, or as we already know from people that have spoken out like Jacob Barber and others is that consciousness is actually the root of disclosure. Consciousness is the root of UAP and UFO phenomena. It's not necessarily a material aspect. It's that there's something, uh, far more, uh, whether you want to consider it dimensional or not, that is taking on a materialistic form, but consciousness is the core piece of all of it. So you begin to see the world, not necessarily some fixed static materialistic universe that we live in. You see it as something that's dynamic, reflexive, and the underlying substrate is not materialistic. It's how we perceive it at our level. Level of consciousness. So here's another interesting, you know, kind of story that ties into this because it, in that program that I worked on, right. Uh, we also worked with something called RNGs, a random number generators. And for those that aren't familiar, right. It's, um, you know, many different ways to build RNGs. Some are better than others. I won't get into the details, but just think random number generator, right. We, as in, I would have the ability to influence it with my thoughts. And this was one of the ways that they like very early tested, you know, was this person psychically active? Could they have an effect on that field that I'm describing? And even though this is technological, a random number generator, there are examples where I personally and watched other kids push them sigmas, sigmas of multitudes and held for hours just by using our thoughts. That's amazing. Yeah. So you can, you can standard deviations of, of changes on these things that are supposed to be tied to, uh, random quantum mechanical events. So things like radioactive isotope decay, or, you know, double slit experiment where you'd expect a 50, 50 on, you know, the left slit, the right slit. And, you know, that is tied to like, you know, what's a, you know, binary computer where you have ones and zeros and you can, what you're saying is you can affect it in a really statistically significant way to get a lot of ones or a lot of zeros. Yeah. Yeah. It's actually like one of the most fun things to teach. Um, you know, that, that you can actually do this as an individual, like you can go find a flash RNG, you can go find an RNG, uh, online. We're building an RNG later in our app that we'll kind of get to later in this episode. Um, but you can test your own ability to do this, right. And you can figure out and hone in that own intuitive signal. There's not again, a one size fits all that works for everyone. Some people are like, wow, I, I can aesthetically imagine myself vibrating. And then the RNG moves, uh, for someone else it's, I think of love, right. And then the RNG moves, like, uh, everyone has the kind of their own unique signals that seem to affect and have a better relationship with the field around us. But like, that's one of the most interesting things that I think people, when they begin, like looking into Psy or they're hearing about past psychic stuff, they want to see, look, there's no data, there's no nothing. And I'm not going to say that that proves some mechanism or some exact connection of why and how, uh, but there's definitely a correlation. There's definitely correlation. There's a, and there's actually a ton of data. Yeah. There's a ton of data from the Princeton, you know, uh, parapsychology lab, the pair lab, the Princeton engineering and anomalous research lab, which was founded by Bob John, who was the Dean of the engineering school who, you know, uh, a lot of whose, you know, plasma propulsion exists today and satellites was very well respected and studied this stuff for decades from 78 to 2007 or something. And it came out being like, without a shadow of a doubt, this is real. And he would engage with top level physicists and they would say things like, Oh, it was a survivorship bias. Wow. Drawer. And you know, you're, you're making this up. And he would say, no, look at the data and sort of, you end up in these sort of infinite loop things where they say it can't be. And he was like, you know, it is. And, uh, and it's wholly consistent with the, you know, Copenhagen interpretation of quantum mechanics that the observer collapses away function. It's just that the observer, we have no model now for which, you know, other than, uh, you know, the, uh, square of the amplitude, which is, you know, uh, the likelihood, the probability that you get, uh, a certain eigenstate, we have no mechanistic understanding of which eigenstate, which state in a wave function gets picked. But anyway, I want I do want to get back to the court because we left people very excited, I'm sure about this, this relic, which was it was what did it look like exactly? Yeah, yeah. So my first introduction of this was actually not in the facility. Okay. I think that my interaction in the experience that I'm going to describe here was highly paramount into me getting removed from the public school system and into the facility. It was almost like a check. But basically, I had, as I described, one of those psychologists, right, that was still coming to see me in the public school system. I was taken out, and I was actually brought to his office. Okay, right. And as I walked into his office, right, just think normal, blending in residential neighborhood, run of the mill psychologist, this isn't deep underground military base, it's just super run of the mill. I walk in, I'm being instructed to, you know, go see, you know, go see the doctor. And as I opened the door, the first thing that I noticed is like, well, even before I opened the door in the hallway, leading into where the therapy office was, I noticed that there was like two people at the end of the hallway that I've never seen before, plainclothes dress, just like two big dudes. I'm like, that's weird. And as I they open the door, and I get brought in immediately, there's my doctor that the psychologist, a woman that I've never seen before, glasses, business professional dressed, skirt, like wearing has a clipboard. And she's sitting down next to them, like on a couch together. And is this before or after the Baker Victory Services? This is this is three months before I got put in a Baker Victory. Okay, got it. This is three months. Okay. And this is just run of the mill, I get pulled out of the psychologist, get pulled out of the school system, going to see the psychologist get brought in the office, this happens. Okay. So yep, there's people in the hallway I've never seen before. There's my psychologist. And then there's also this this female right clipboard will not make eye contact with me like weirdly enough, like won't even acknowledge my existence. And I felt that was like super odd. And then there's a few other people, a few other just like big males, again, like plain clothed in the room, like looking out the windows in this office, in the center, like think table, maybe combined size, if you put these together. So couch table, people over here, I'm asked to kind of go take a seat next to the table. There's what in my young mind, I would call a blanket, right over an object that I can't make out over this like coffee table. Looking backwards now, like the blanket was like some type of Faraday shielding, right, some type of like electromagnetic shielding or something. But my psychologist who I knew, right, begins talking to me, none of the other people in the room will talk to me that the female won't know. And this is the first time I've ever seen a female but was just like very eerie for me at the time. But the psychologist is like, Hi, Jordan, like, hey, we have something really special for you today. You don't have to do anything. We just want you to tell us what you think of something, right? We're going to show it to you. Again, you don't have to do anything. Just tell me what you think about it, right? And I'm like, already traumatized, nervous, what's happening? Okay, this again. So some, I think was the female, she pulls the blanket, like the Faraday shielding. from the coffee table. And sitting at the center of the coffee table on a pedestal, right, that like a three prong pedestal is what I would describe as a think of a wizard's orb, like quite seriously, little bit smaller than a basketball has a defined shell, clear looking like wizard's ball, right? Now, here's what's unique about this. Okay, it has a defined shell. It's a literal crystal orb. But the inside of this orb, for lack of a better word, was alive. So it had a structure that if you could imagine almost like, if you were to imagine Jupiter in your mind, and Jupiter's like swirling atmosphere, imagine that inside this sphere, but highly white, highly crystallized, highly like almost you're looking into a VVS diamond. It's fractalized, it's swirling, and it's emitting its own light source. Right? So there's this, it's fixed, defined shell, crystal orb, crystal sphere. There's this inside structure that for, I can only really attribute to it is alive. It is alive. How big is it? A little bit smaller than a basketball, a little bit smaller than a basketball. So like, you know, maybe take a quarter off of your globe on that side. And what color? Think like white diamond. The color was really hard on this because it was almost like, think of your studio lights almost actually, it was like this fractalized light inside of it and outside of it. There wasn't really like, color. It was just this white pure light. And it's emitting light out of it. Right? What's interesting, the first thing that I noticed is the psychologist goes like, hey, we want you, you don't have to do anything. Just tell me what you think about it. And I look at it. Right? So I actually take my two eyes and I lock eye contact with this thing. And as I locked eye contact with it, the inside structure that I described, right, that was like fractalized, like Jupiter's atmosphere kind of swirling, it adapts. And it like, changes. Right? So that is the first thing that I noticed. This happens within like two seconds. And when that happens, I actually become like really scared. Because I also begin feeling this somatic sensation. I felt it very much like literally in my brain, where I almost felt like this thing was coming into me. And it made me like terrified. I didn't, ever feel that sensation. It wasn't telepathy. It was like, hey, this thing is almost linking with you is the way that I actually felt. And I was just like, highly terrified of it. I noticed that as I moved my eyes back and forth, right, this inside structure was actually like mirroring my eye movement. And that lasted for 30 seconds. And the blanket was put back over the thing. And the psychologist, his words to me were like, wow, you did great. You did great. You did great. It picks who it likes. And I think it likes you. Whoa. That is wild. And that was the start of my relationship with Sylvia. They named the orb Sylvia? It was her name. Yeah, it was her name. And I mean that mainly because as I later, you know, the start of this relationship, to where essentially the people in the program had this thing. I don't know where it came from. I don't know where this crystal orb came from. I don't, it was never told me the, the, the sentient consciousness as I'll get into and expand as I interact with this, never told me where it was from. Um, it, it, it wasn't like, oh, we found this from a spacecraft or we dug this up over anywhere. I will note that the people within the program, the people that were actually shepherding this thing around, didn't call it tech. Called it a relic. And they said its name is Sylvia or did it transmit its name to you? So that was my first time interacting with it like locally. Right. So it was in the room with me. I had this really quick, like 30 second make eye contact. It looks at me. I could feel it. Right. But like that was it. That was it. Um, now fast forward, right. Three months later, now I'm back in this facility. Uh, I have this trainer mag, right. Um, as we're exploring ESP, um, she brings up like, Hey, I heard you met Sylvia. Right. And like, can you recall that experience? And I was brought into like another relaxation exercise. Um, she says, I heard you met Sylvia, that orb thing. Her name is Sylvia. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well, we, uh, to back up, there was a, there was some context in that conversation. I heard that you were introduced to something. Right. And, and I was actually brought into like this relaxation exercise with mag and she was like, do you know what its name is? And as I'm in this relaxation exercise, um, I could take myself out of body and I almost like make contact. So it's like, as if once I was physically linked with this, you know, like device relic, whatever you want to call it. Um, it was like, it developed like a tunnel or a pathway to where like I could communicate with it back. And this began a longer process throughout the program to where, um, they wanted to better understand this thing. So that first example with mag, I saw it once different psychologist office. Now I'm back here in this whole program attic environment. Um, I was actually asked, what do you think its name is? And I could, uh, like take myself into this astral environment, feel the same energy from it. And it would show up to me visually like this very silver fractalizing type energy. And in one of the experiences, it was telling me that his name was Sylvia. So later on it was brought back in and I was essentially like this in-between process to better understand what they couldn't understand about it. Right. So it didn't telepathically link with anyone else. It wouldn't talk to anyone else. They didn't know what this thing was, was basically my understanding. So I would be given tasks on like, Hey, uh, we need you to go talk to Sylvia and we need you to come back with like a schematic. We want you to come back with a schematic. We want you to draw how it works, or we want you to give us a blueprint on how it works. We need you to ask it these things. so we needed to go back and forth do you remember anything that it transmitted to you yeah yeah yeah yes here's the really interesting things with it right so here's this crystal orb device fractal right it was sentient and conscious and felt alive it didn't communicate through mouth it communicated telepathically as it would communicate telepathically the first and foremost like the most interesting thing is that it was feminine right so it wasn't like this is just an interesting dynamic like it had uh like from an auditory sensation it had more of a female's voice it would describe and introduce itself to me as more feminine and i think this is like really interesting as we begin thinking about like deep dimensionality and like metaphysics and how gender perhaps like scales throughout dimensions i don't think it goes away right i think like here this third dimension is like a little bit more feminine and i think like here this third dimension is like a little bit more feminine and i think like here this third dimension is like a little human experience it's like yeah you're male or female right and fixed or you know some fluidity between that but perhaps as you scale up outside of a body or you're like a ascended consciousness or you wherever whatever sylvia is it's that gender was more of a spectrum it wasn't like this fixed thing um and that was be something that was communicated to me also um i it was essentially told to me in one of the earlier sessions that sylvia represented more of the this thing that we would equate to like a human thought form and in the deepest communication session that i had with it it was being shown to me that like sylvia was human thoughts almost we as humans everything we create everything we think everything we're consciously experiencing takes on some form somewhere else and this energy or this thing is actually very connected to our own thoughts right so it's like as we imagine things we're like oh my god i don't know what things maybe they become real right it was kind of like the lesson in all this um and then from that point forward uh everything that the program staff are trying to get out of it like um how does it work jordan you know draw schematics of it it didn't want to work with them so it would be like they would bring it in i would go in with a session nothing would really happen and um they would just get upset with me like go back and try again right and that was really from what i understand a lot of the stuff that i interacted with was like hey they were trying to figure it out do you think it was good evil did you have any context on how they acquired it no idea how they acquired it it itself this is also like very interesting right like well hey like why would this whatever it is interdimensional different sentient life like thing like why would it let this happen to you it was 100 neutral it is it was the epitome of like neutrality neutrality it was the epitome of like neutrality it was the epitome of like neutrality like it it did not take sides it didn't like it was just so neutral is what was interesting so which i would think like again as you you know almost ascend up in like awareness levels you have to become non-dualistic you have to become neutral so it was like yeah was this bad well it looks bad right in that moment but it's who defines what's good bad and evil right like there is no fixed state in duality that is that is fact fascinating do you still feel somewhat entangled with this object uh i don't i don't you know i don't i it's it's been interesting because um i'm curious right like i'm curious is it still kicking around some defense contractors you know like bunker but i i don't know yeah do have you ever heard of anything like it no no i've i've never the the best comparison also i can kind of give you which is interesting is um what is it this salvatore del mondi uh da vinci's painting of christ right if you're familiar with that uh in that photo crisis like holding this crystallized orb right i believe it's in his left or his right hand it was very similar like that size right and again more fractalized but i always find that interesting and because of the language that was being used as relic like perhaps this isn't something from you know nhi or something that crashed here like maybe these things have been here a long time which also ties into thousands of years of esoteric tradition esoteric wisdom right like we here we are kind of talking about you know for those that may not be familiar with this um i worked very closely uh you know leading up to skywatcher with ross goldhart and ross goldhart has reported about this experience at esalen institute in california last year big sir or 2024 rather and where i led a exercise um we shared people the same protocols that i was taught in childhood of how to make contact with nhi right and we did it was incredible we had plasma orbs we had essentially these blue orbs that came and think 50 yards of people like out of the ocean up through the air it was it was amazing it was the most incredible thing and then also like let's think about a moment like what the shamans have been talking about for two thousands of years think about like native american indigenous um you know elders right who have been communicating with like blue light you know for thousands of years like all of the parallels are are actually beginning to come together here so it's not that this is some necessarily in my opinion or my worldview some extraterrestrial or some uh you know like very outside the self level of phenomena it's that like all of this is just different slices of the same pie and consciousness and awareness is the core of it while you were at baker victory services did they ever have you fly a craft or lock on to a thing and yeah with your consciousness yeah so when you need to build up your team to handle the growing chaos at work use 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today's sponsor mud water it's a coffee alternative made with functional mushrooms and adaptogens lion's mane chaga cacao chai with about a seventh of the caffeine of coffee so you get a steady cleaner energy without the spike in the spiral that so many people experience so if you've been looking for a calmer alternative to your morning coffee routine and are curious about trying mud water the starter kit is the move right now you get up to 43 off free shipping and a free rechargeable frother when you use code jesse at mudwater.com that's mudwtr.com now back to today's show yeah so i there was another aspect that they were highly interested in developing and this was something called the prometheus system and for those that know the story of prometheus like you go figure right the the bringer of fire to you of course they would name this such device called the prometheus system yeah so i would call it the faustian system or something so just just like i've described my interactions as so like highly telepathic, just linking through consciousness, that seems to be exactly how most of these UAP, UFO, other materials are interacted with. So they're not flown with joysticks. And to tie into this, I would have examples to where there would be other objects. I would be sometimes brought just into the same lab environment in Ribbon Baker Victory. I wasn't like on an airfield, right? But from that process of working with my brainwaves, getting in a state, it was clear that I was working with something somewhere else, right? So there were examples to where there were objects that I would be asked to shift my conscious awareness in, right? So let me back up. Piloting the UAP, right? Piloting whatever it is. Not going to talk about descriptions or anything. Again, flown through the mind. With it consciously. How do you do that? You take your consciousness outside of your body and you become that object, right? And there's an art and a skill of doing this. So the same way that right now my consciousness feels like it's in my body, I would lay in a deep meditation. I would have some type of, you know, perhaps sedative or some type of, you know, other substance often used, different auditory aids, and shift my consciousness into said object or some vehicle and become it. And from there, I would be able to do that. And I would be able to do that. And I would from that point of view, actually demonstrate command and control, right? And you would do that by shifting and almost taking advantage. We started this conversation on like observation and awareness. Well, to actually like send commands and controls and these things, you're doing that through the art of shifting your own perception and awareness. So for example, let's say there was an orb or something and I was asked to fly it. I would shift my consciousness into it. And when that would happen, I would typically experience what I would describe as like a split. If you can imagine like a split screen video game, right? This is all my mind's eye. Imagine a split screen video game where you see something on the left and something on the right. I would basically give these commands and shift my own perspective of myself and said object to get it to move. So on the left hand side, I would imagine something from the third person perspective. So I'm imagining the object. My surroundings, what everything looks like around me. And on the right hand or the right hemisphere, I'm imagining my forward looking first person perspective. And by the art of flip-flopping the two, I'm like want to travel here from my first person perspective. And then on my third person, on my left side, I'm imagining what it looks like and I'm already there. You would actually get this thing to move, right? Now they had a lot of EEG monitoring on me as I was doing this. And this is where the Prometheus system would come in, right? And I would imagine So a highly gifted psychic kid can mesh their consciousness and get said object or UAP to move. Well, how do we give that power to an Air Force guy, right? Who's not have an open consciousness, does not have an open heart. So there was something actually happening at the brainwave level, you know, something, what entanglements were showing, what brainwave specs were showing, I don't know. But from what I understand, what they were trying to do is build a brain neural interface, right? So watching my brain, I'm like, oh, I'm going to do this. I'm going to do this. So I was sending my brainwaves as I interacted with this thing, and then creating a mechanistic machine, an interface that would reproduce the brainwave signals that I was sending out. So then you could boil it back down to someone with a controller, right? So now that they have a controller, I can't do this thing myself. But as I push up, it's sending the brainwave that we know Jordan, you know, communicated and move up. That is wild. Being used kind of like as a human or as a bridge to you have the mind meld. And then it's so wild. This is so crazy. But it also dovetails with this kind of book that the Pentagon censored, seven pages of redactions, the Sentinels of Ether book that Jake Barber put out pseudonymously under the pen name Alva Douglas. And it's all about this. It's all about this, you know, neural interfaces between the brain and these things. And so that's how you fly them. That's how you actually get them to show up. And what he calls P3s, people with psionic predisposition potentials, and they're sort of flying the crafts. And then you have, like you said, they're the ones who are kind of heart centered, but they're also sometimes kind of, you know, given a lot of pharmacological aids. That's a total euphemism. You know, they're people from the Air Force, just ordinary people using these people to fly the objects. It's really crazy. Yeah, it sounds incredibly sci-fi. But like, that's the reality of it. That's so wild. And so do you know what you're locking on to? Do you know what the objects are that you're locking on to when you're sitting in this chair? What happens? So I don't know. I don't how to say this. I don't know how to answer that, like specifically. What I can tell you is like there were different objects. Okay. So like, just like in the Skywatcher environment, right? Like we were seeing different classes of UAP, right? To my understanding, the, you know, military industrial complex has multiple classes of UAP, right? Some may be the manta ray style, some may be the triangle, some may be this. And every person, right, almost on a consciousness level signal would perhaps mate up with the UAP. And so I don't know how to answer that. I don't know how to or not made up with some of them. So it was like, I might work very well with object A, but I can't work with object B or C. And in my localized like testing and experience, like again, this was like two years of highly standardized like preparation to get me to a point where I would have been doing that full time. Right. But again, it didn't happen in my life story, thank God. So in my experiences, they were highly limited. It was just like, I got the muscle memory. They got to see that I could do it, but it wasn't like, I was doing this every day. It wasn't like, hey, go take the UAP and run a mission or something like that. It's just, I had enough times where I ran through the process to be able to articulate it back here today. And for context, just for the audience, you mentioned Skywatcher. I've done a show with James Fowler, Jake Barber, who also kind of, you know, Ross Coldheart originally introduced his story to the world. He worked for a contractor that was probably Northrop Grumman. Through my own and other people's open source research, that's not his own admission. He said, you could probably guess. So I want to make that clear. But he basically said that he retrieved a couple of crafts. One was an eight gun shaped, it had eight different sides. And the other was an egg shaped craft. And he was this helicopter pilot who went through the Air Force combat control pipeline and was then sheep dipped or erased basically from the special forces, you know, this ghost who was doing extremely sensitive missions for nuclear emergency support and with high value targets and that sort of thing. And that involved UFO crash retrievals. After he came out, he started this organization called Skywatcher. And you were a part of this. And this involved essentially getting people with these psionic predisposition potentials to call in craft and then also calling in the craft with these sort of machine based systems. Is that right? Yeah. So here's here to give a little bit more context here, too, to kind of wrap this up for people. All of these were experiences in childhood for me, right? And like we started this to like show out. I had no memory of this for a lot of years. So like 2023, things completely burned down, right? I'm having memories of this. Good luck, right? Who do you call? I think I was a part of this compartmentalized program, right? There's no resource for you. So I just did my best to, you know, find ways to psychologically get myself better without, you know, getting labeled schizophrenic, right? Without going out the deep end and without killing myself. I had a suicide attempt, you know, to be completely honest with you in January of 23, because I cannot speak to the level of disparity of like, wow, you wake up in a matter of two months and remember an entire childhood that you once forgotten. You have records, you know, describing a life that you don't remember. Like, it feels very Jason Borney but instead you're the main character in Stranger Things. Dude, I can only imagine. And I'm so grateful that you're here and you're so good. You know, you're on such a good wavelength and you have such a good trajectory. And I don't know how you integrate that amount of traumatic past experience in such a short period of time, especially when it comes up unprovoked. It's not like you were attempting to like, I wasn't in the search of like, what's, what's causing my maladies. Oh, I'm going to, you know, it's just, it's sort of, you know, you were high stress environment with startups and you had a relationship, you know, end and then. Yeah. Yeah. Damn, man. Yeah. Yeah. Like again, completely guided on this path, you know, as we talk about NHI and everything, like all of this is really just brought me closer, you know, to my own, you know, idea and version and relationship with God, you know, to see all these moments where it's like, wow, you know, it didn't quite make it. But again, to be in a situation today to be able to articulate this and actually push the needle forward word for humanity right not for the military not for the industrial complex actually like putting the power back in our own hands like yeah that's worth living for that's a beautiful thing that's yeah it's amazing and uh and you should be proud of yourself and um yeah so you so this happens in 23 yeah go for it yeah yeah yeah so this happens in 23 and it starts a long-term healing process um you know met some amazing people you know build some trust along the way but just like highly independent trans journaling highly uh you know basically ways to deal with this trauma and uh i started uh just investigating my own past right like where did this happen who are these people you know how did this all essentially happen to me and that got to getting into like 2024 um and as people know right at this time david grush had stepped out reported to congress um and i was essentially looking at like well here's the missing piece right like i experienced it and lived it uh and in 2024 after going through just a lot of healing getting all the supporting records evidence all everything to kind of just support the credibility in my case i made contact with ross colhart and uh flew down to dc met with ross you know did the you know followed the same footsteps as many others right did the whole testimony and it was at that point that ross um introduced me to jacob barber so this was before jacob barber had went public i think it was like june of 24 or something along those lines um but yeah i was developing a relationship with ross he was highly highly supportive and introduced me to jake and he said like hey here's this guy uh i've been working with behind the scenes and at that point uh jake was the first individual that knew what i was talking about that i had like truly encountered because i worked up many channels before this i was you know trying to talk to uh state police departments this this this and i was like oh my god i'm gonna be like oh my god i'm gonna be like this i was talking to other people you know ex-agency people uh and it like really speaks to the level of uh compartmentalization that like aspects of the legacy program have it's like it's a far smaller club than most people think far smaller club um but i finally made contact with jake and uh you know hearing from jake you know essentially he he experienced many similarities you know i i think just by uh latitude of being involved in the operations that he was involved with he was familiar with what i went through uh you know in childhood and he was also gifted and talented education he was he was a kid yeah yeah i think his i think his family's highly um yeah there's there's a lot of there's a lot there in the gate program as a kid gate program is a program uh it's an acronym for gifted and talented education and that allowed me to do a lot of things uh i excelled in art and music actually and the sciences uh had entered a science contest and won a state science fair based on a project i had done i i won't go into too many details he can tell his own story but yeah there's some similarities you know i think and and many many of the gate people's stories but um i met jake and jake introduced me to the skywatcher cohort james fowler alex at the time and you know what really struck me was you know i was in this situation of like i'm not really a whistleblower but i'm not really a whistleblower right but like i'm attempting to try to do right right i'm trying to find the right people to get an investigation open and you know then you meet these wonderful guys at the top right like pinnacle of special operations community like yeah we've been doing this for years right and that was really what i think a lot of people missed from the skywatcher you know uh story was they looked at it very surface level but like also there's just a lot of very credible people who have been trying to fight the good fight and get information out so uh i elected to kind of join the team and lead the psionic operations piece of really with the principle of uh if our government is not going to disclose uh perhaps we can create the conditions necessary document that and you know bring that to science and bring that to you know the world so we don't need our governments right um had an amazing time with them great people worked with some of the best operators that i've ever worked with in my life uh but i've actually left the skywatcher team uh last july and the reason being highly personal for me but i was just kind of beginning to get the sensation that um we need less military honestly right we need less of this kind of like wounded masculine we're gonna go figure this out what we actually need is like the public support we need the next generation thinkers we need the next generation industry to begin working on disclosure we don't need the highly compartmented i've worked in defense my entire life and you know that's been my trajectory i just don't see that being the best like next chapter for us yeah also i would say you know and and i'm i'm always of like a split mind right like the to the people who are like there was nothing going on and they weren't provoking any sort of ufos to appear i'm like no i think they were i think i think there definitely were i think a lot of stuff was showing up for them we definitely um and then and that's sort of you know got to hold those people at bay and then on the other side just the idea that you can somehow subsume this idea that you can somehow subsume this idea that you can somehow subsume this idea ancient sacred practice of communing with these celestial objects which has gone on since you know the days of yamblichus the syrian you know neoplatonist or ezekiel or you know whatever you want to date it back to uh probably before that right um and you can somehow provoke these things to come and and and then use them in some instrumental way to derive material to confer a tactical warfare advantage via an adversary it feels like the wrong framework overall it's like that doesn't feel like if you want you got yeah you could you have an infinite range of things you can do with your life maybe not an infinite but a wide range maybe maybe don't do that yeah yeah like so so for example like from the psionic you know portion of this and i and i i lead these experiences for people i want to go interact right it it's not hey follow these three steps it's it's highly heart-based it's like i actually need you to forget everything that you know and i need you to open your heart as you know embark on this journey to interact with something like nhi it's it's not um it's not mechanistic it's it doesn't fit the military you know box very well right uh so i i totally agree with you and i think again it's just um there's there's truth and there's data and there's things on both sides of the table you know like a very interesting you know perspective without going in too much detail that i can share here is like from the skywatcher cohort right like the psionic operations right like one of the sites that i've been working on for a long time and i've been going out when we were setting up and running a session and actually trying to elicit uap right we were not successful 100 of the time at eliciting a response right however every time we did elicit a response uh the phenomena was highly benign right like it was very neutral it wasn't angry it was just kind of like floating through checking out maybe even exhibiting some like loving behavior right like actually investigating uh on the you know mechanistic dog whistle side of the things right it's a very interesting thing to do and i think it's a very interesting thing to do and i think it's a very interesting thing to do and i think it's a very interesting thing to understanding like that was producing a result you know nearly 100 of the time but it would often produce a result that was aggressive right like as you saw in like episode two right like flying up to the trailer like getting highly aggressive probing our responses right so like that kind of like points to me that what we put out is also what we're going to get back it's like a mirror yeah that's so interesting so highly supportive of again of like this is why the military should not be leading this conversation james fowler on my show is a really fascinating interview he was talking about you know somebody was gonna use directed energy or whatever he said he made it clear that skywatcher itself didn't use directed energy but somebody was going to at one point against one of these like hostile it's like the jellyfish ufos uap which seemed to be particularly aggressive and it just shut down the directed energy before it even went out yeah and so it's like i i don't subscribe that the jellyfish are actually like hostile i think that they're almost like immune response like you see that class when you're actually putting out something that's probably not in the best interest of the field it's just your own bs right excavated in some sort of outer form right interesting yeah so again with like reality the phenomenon reflecting back to us that's why it's the more that you try to take this lockdown materialistic like militaristic approach i think that's what you're going to get back and because this is the really messed up part and i don't even know how to talk about this but they use electromagnetic pulse weaponry against these things and then so they're covered with plasma and then they sort of become inert and then they come down is that right like yeah like i'll be honest with you the way that i understand this again not sky watchers yeah but the way that i understand legacy uap crash retrieval operations to work many different styles right one style is let's say they're using a uap and then they're using a uap and then they're using psionics okay you're going to take psionics highly developed psychic aptitude uh they're going to go set up in the desert they're going to run their protocols and processes which are probably highly formulated on love right and they're probably going to do that in an environment where there's directed energy weapons all around so you're almost creating this like honeypot of like hey we love you come see us we want to interact with you and then let's say that thing interacts all of a sudden they're hit with the directed energy up and materialize and like yeah So the real story sad part of this where like ross colhart i think talked about this a little bit already like area 52 is that how everything happens no but i do have awareness that yeah like many crash retrieval operations have like operated that way and then in the book sentinels of ether you know that jake put out uh it's like so they recover material and then there's a mental interface as far as the reverse engineered craft as well like getting that to fly requires the psionic assets to lock in again on the ground and then it gets those to fly yeah it's the world gets very abstract and like very complex at that point are you are you high confidence in that part or just like the ability for the thing to show up or i'm high confidence in the fact that crash retrieval operations have shot many things with directed energy well. jesus christ and and if you're if your consciousness is locked in as the psionic asset to the craft and that craft is getting shot that must be a traumatic feeling yeah yeah so i experienced this i won't go into details like when where or anything like that but at one point in my own personal history right i experienced this i was interacting with the phenomena uh my consciousness was co-creating co-piloting and whatever kind of you know manifestation of the phenomenon that was showing up right and halfway through the process as i was like communicating with other people kind of demonstrating this uh i felt something go wrong that i've never felt before the way that i could kind of explain it is it felt as if my body was actually turning to stone didn't feel like i was getting electrocuted it felt as if the thing that i was connected to consciously as well as my body was immediately turning into stone and there was like an emergency i felt to get my consciousness out of this thing and back to my body because it felt like if i stayed that the conduit right this like unseen consciousness connection was going to be like severed and there was almost a uh you know ability for me to get stuck in this thing right if i didn't return back to my body and from what i understand the area that i was running that exercise in happened to have um directed energy weapons you know naturally near it so chances are something got brought in detected on radar and like naturally it's looked at as an adversarial threat uh so yeah i mean i'm very grateful to be alive and unscathed from that experience but like yeah there's did you experience any sort of physiological damage from that or no no not gonna i mean pain you know pain but no not that i'm aware of like what if you were to characterize that pain was it like it was like a soul pain or was it a was it a physical pain physical soul again imagine your body turned into stone is the best oh god yeah that is so gnarly yeah and again right i'm not one thing we didn't even kind of get into here right is like you know people's perspective and underlying like background on the phenomena is like oh it's extraterrestrial it's like well like hold on a second go back to that initial analogy that i kind of provided where it's the story's been it's materialistic universe or a physicist again i think we live in a field right and i think that all these dimensions are stacked you know with us and it's essentially like everything is right here right now and it's actually a level of consciousness and awareness and what we perceive that gives us the experience um so it's like very possible is this extraterrestrial i don't know maybe maybe that's a portion of it uh i subscribe more that it's like interdimensional right so perhaps there's an intelligence or an awareness that's actually fourth fifth sixth seventh dimension it's evolved away from the point of needing an ego id for those that aren't familiar with that like looking to you know neuroscience and it doesn't need an ego id doesn't need a body maybe it exists as this ethereal thought form but it's actually an awareness and intelligence and it can interact with the third dimension and it interacts by materializing a portion of itself here right and maybe that's what we're seeing you know from the uap side i don't think that's all of it but i think that's a portion so it's like there's this interdimensional um there's also what if it's us like i'm not completely sold on this either and i'll point to a lot of experiments with plasma right like even that excellent event that i described when we had 30 people highly heart centric we had these incredible interactions with plasma orbs right but i'm not completely convinced that like that could not be an extension of human consciousness materializing itself too right so it's like it's not just one size fits all it's not as simple as like hey there's aliens i think we all want this to be simple i i think again the real work in understanding the phenomena is going to be in how we understand consciousness and awareness and what forms consciousness and awareness can take on it's likely not the thing that we are hearing in the narrative that we're superimposing on it's likely much weirder than that and it could be a whole host of disparate threads uh but on the plasma front there's a great book called the new science of heaven by really just polymathic brilliant guy named robert temple that i've been reading and it's all about how atomic matter physical matter is actually the exception to the rule and that you know the universe itself is mostly plasma and you have these kordelofsky clouds and you have you even have these experiments being done where it seems like these plasmoids are in are like cohering to heartbeats when a human walks up to them and we have a mutual friend named adam curry who does a lot of you know experimentation in this area as well it's it's really phenomenal like so who are we to say you know it's almost you have to think about this thought experiment how many of the millions of species on earth think that they are at the top of the food chain probably a decent amount unless you're constantly seeing you know your apex level predator that's like freaking you out yeah you know a lot of them probably do and in some cases they might think oh they might kill us kill me or whatever but they're dumb you know what i mean so like i think it's really important to like how many and so who are we to say that we're we're at the top and then there's always a an epistemic uh cap that you have there's an umwelt that you're a perceptive lens that you're seeing the world through and that's always going to be capped so like and then i just interviewed an mit neuroscientist or mit trained neuroscientist at uc irvine his name is don hoffman and his whole thing is consciousness is actually more like disembodiment is more adaptive for consciousness yeah so anyways yeah i completely agree with you i completely agree with you yeah like the the next generation of this like where do we go post-disclosure right well it's like well yeah on one hand you know the narrative up to this point has kind of been like bad government doing bad things like of course right like yeah there needs to be you know some level of justice and research but you know like i don't think the next phase is like hey we're going to be looking really far out to other planets and we're going to repeat what seti has done for like a i think the real answer is like inside us i i think the answer is intrinsic i think that the more that we actually understand how our own intelligence operates the more we'll actually understand these disparate threads that just haven't been connected yet um i also think like the more we look to past right to the past the better off we're going to be too because you can look at like ancient rites of passages you can look at hermetic wisdom you can look at all of these like just ancient things we love to kind of like keep to the side but if you're willing to like open the thread and you're like oh my god i'm going to be like oh my god i'm going to be like you realize that it's like the path to ascension different consciousnessness different awarenesses different intelligences all of this has been documented for thousands and thousands of years you said something to me off air that blew my mind because i always you know obviously i systematically look at ufo stuff and i'm always trying to figure out are these physical objects are they you know mental you know i'm pretty convinced that like the thread that you're on correct that like there's some sort of mental thing you call them into your your field you said something so interesting to me which is that the like directed energy that hits them creates a local electric field that almost calls the ufos into physical form is that roughly right or yeah i i don't again this is not my domain right this is just like my extrapolated understanding of like trying to view the world from a different perspective and i think that's what's so the perspective of what has happened right and like some of these scenarios that we talked about yesterday and it's that like perhaps think of a uap or ufo as more of like a manifestation right it's like imprinted in this reality and we took that model that we talked about yesterday of like perhaps an interdimensional right intelligence or aspect of awareness maybe in that seventh dimension right it's like oh okay i'm gonna come you know interact in the third dimension in this right dimension and i'm gonna project and manifest my awareness here that awareness takes on a certain form that awareness could take on a plasma worm that could take on a craft could take on and whatever right and from that projection something like directed energy may actually like force that to materialize and almost become like a dense portion of this you know dimension that we're in right um it's not that like hey that allows it to take form what i'm really saying is like what may have been happening in some of these scenarios is like this is a trans-dimensional object that doesn't necessarily belong here but by hitting it with like something like directed energy you're forcing it to take form and become bound to this dimension. Have you heard of Eric Wargo? He wrote a book called Time Loops. No. He's amazing. He talks about like the soul self as being like he calls it the long body. And it's like the there's some sort of quantum self that's like maybe like a Tesseract or something. And that is ported into the human body. And there is this burgeoning field of quantum biology, you know, even going back to 1944, I believe, Schrodinger himself, who's like the father of, you know, quantum wave function, a lot of quantum mechanics. He had a lecture series called What is Life? And he talked about these aperiodic, you know, receiver crystals in the DNA. And so you have to wonder, like, are we tethered to something higher? And Wargo presents this really interesting model where, you know, in quantum computations, you can reverse qubit positions. And so basically, even people who are serious, you know, working in, you know, on quantum computers or probably more in the quantum mechanics interpretation world, think that maybe on the application layer of a working quantum computer, which we don't have because, you know, chips and keeping them cryonically cooled or whatever, cryogenically cooled, is the bottom. When we get that, maybe you could send information of a future knowledge or memory state back in time. And so then if you get into, you know, again, I don't know if this is, you know, fully verified, but like the Roger Penrose, Hameroff, you know, tubulin of the microtubules or whatever, or something like it in the brain where you have some sort of quantum room temperature quantum system, then your future knowledge state could send stuff back in time. And if you think about pre-sentiment, like what do we have these precocious pre-memories of, you know, the things that we have intuitions that are going to happen. And it's like you wake up, you have a dream about the thing. It's often the most important thing and the most important as far as, you know, it being adaptable, adaptive for your survival and your evolution. So like, you know, losing a loved one or like, you know, something dangerous that could happen to you or whatever, you know, these are the things that get downloaded. And, you know, I think we're going to end up with this consciousness model where you're like a measurement system. And it's like you're like the stylus on like an LP player and you're picking you're picking the tracks or something. I, you know, at a just very loose level, right? Like I subscribe to this conceptually, right? And this kind of like mirrors back the idea of time. It's almost as if like every aspect of experience, already exists in some form, right? Like if you went right or left, if you decided to do the show or didn't do the show, right? It's in that core present moment that like you as the awareness get to decide, right? So it's kind of like reality is almost just like you get to chart your own path. Perhaps there are these like predetermined, like you have to get here, you have to make XYZ decision. Everything's accessible to you. But like you only have these choices with you in the present moment, but they've actually already all happened, or they already could happen. And you, you have to make a decision. And you, you have to as the core part of awareness get to experience it now through your decision making, right? And the idea like, hey, maybe, you know, in the future, right? Of like, what we perceive as linear time, right? Like you ended up in a position where it's like, this isn't the right way. You know, perhaps there is just this kind of quantum feedback loop, where maybe in the present moment now, before you make that decision, you start getting synchronicities, right? That like force you to take a different decision, right? So like, maybe all of this is a giant feedback loop. Not to move. From such a transcendent message to a more banal subject. But I think a lot of people are left in suspense around, you know, this experience that you had. So we're kind of weaving in and out, but I love it. But you're so you had this two year experience at this center. And it's, you know, this Victory Baker Center. And what happened? So So are there any experiments that were missing first off? Yeah, yeah, there's, there's many, there's many. And what I'll add to people here, right? Is like, you know, from a psychological basis is like, I have a high level of dissociation over that experience. And it's taking me years, right? To be able to have the recall and the integration that I do have. Outside of the dissociation, there were all sorts of substances that I was, I was essentially an experiment, right? Stuff that I don't even know, you know, stuff I still wonder, like, hey, I had cancer at a young age. Like, I wonder if there's a connection there, right? I wonder, man. Yeah. Yeah, you know, it's just kind of shitty to think about, for lack of a better word. But, anyways, yeah, two years, I was there, the real pinnacle of this was, again, it was development. So I was in a track. And the next iteration that was told to me when I was there in the school, was that I was going to leave this little facility that I was spent the two years in, and I was going to be enrolled in a boarding school. So I was going to leave my parents, after all, I was going to go to a facility in Eastern New York. And I was going to live there full time. And they were, I was going to get to do this stuff all the time. And I'm pretty sure that would have been the point that I just disappear from human society and probably get, you know, thrown in the underground bunker, right? By the grace of God, at the same time, getting into 2010, and this is, you know, just for some great people, right? Like, this is some great investigation work. Ross Coulthard has done a lot on this, you know, to piece this back together. But in 2010, my home school district, right, that little hometown of Springville, by grace of my mother, by grace of myself, finally, like, petitioned the state of New York to come and look in at this facility. And apparently, for five months, the record something goes, Baker Victory Services was refusing access to the state to come in and inspect me, right, which you would do if you're an intelligence agency or defense contractor, like you have control over everything. Well, that got to the point where they were going to run a state audit, like on the whole thing. And they didn't want that to happen. So I was hastily returned in like September of 2010. Back to my home school district, kicked out of the program. And like I said, I was on like 12 antipsychotics. There was a cover basically pointing up to this time that I was severely mentally unwell. And that's what was justified my placement there for two years. So like within 30 days, all this craziness stops, I get thrown back into my home school district. And I just do everything in my power to forget this ever happened. Because I went up against what it was. People masqueraded as school, they masqueraded as my friends, who do I trust? I'm just never going to talk about this. And I hope to God I live a normal life. And that worked. Within one year, all of my medications were released. I was released from every single psychological diagnosis. So it's just magically cleared in one year, right? And it just all disappeared. It just all disappeared. Major, major fall through the cracks, you know, the level of roadblocks. But also, again, this is high level exploitation from the best of the best, you know, like an intelligence agency, right? This is how they would masquerade the system. And like 400 plus lawsuits were, you know, thrown against Victory Baker Services. Is that right? Yeah, yeah, yeah, they it's no longer in operation. It has been sued so many times, not by myself, but just by other people reporting sexual abuse claims that they had to close the facility. Do you have any sense of the contract tractors or the agencies that were working there? I don't want to go into too many details about that. But I will gladly point the audience to where I think, like, if you want to look at legacy program stuff, I'd look at MITRE. MITRE Corporation. Yeah, they're federally funded research and development center. And it's interesting. Eric Burleson, you know, congressman from Missouri, who's really been a champion of UFO UAP disclosure. He is now, basically demanding that MITRE open up all their records regarding involvement with this sort of subject. And so that'll be that'll be very interesting. I think he sent them something saying you have 45 days or something like that. Yeah, yeah. Again, the what's interesting is, like my whole track that I experienced as an individual is like, I love the fact that there's Burleson doing this. I love the fact that there's still so many good people like trying to fight the good fight using the mechanisms of government that we have today. My experience was like, they all failed. They failed me as a kid. They still failed me now as we've tried to look. Right. So I'm far more interested in like, at the same level, people are looking backwards. And, you know, trying to get justice and get right. We also need a cohort of people who are looking forward that are saying, like, I'm not worried about what bad MITRE did. I'm worried about what was MITRE doing? What do they know? And how can we bring that out in the public light? Right? Yeah, totally. Where is that, you know, transcendence going to happen? And I hope that, you know, just from like what I'm creating, what others are creating in the space that like a whole new renaissance can emerge right now. MITRE is weird. I mean, they used to hold like gravity conferences. And, you know, Ning Li was last, you know, speaking at a MITRE conference before she kind of went into the black and she was doing anti-gravity experiments. And so it's yeah, the first order thing is right. Like, wait, you know, this is this is totally messed up. Like you guys have committed crimes. The second order thing is like, you're concealing stuff that could just change humanity and make like the world like way, way better. So like, let that out, you know, at the very least, let that out, you know? Well, here's the thing. I don't know if they will. Right. Like, let's look at the track record. You be another 20 years of just like fighting with the mechanisms uh and and again back to the earlier point is like we don't need it we don't need government we don't need the people who've done this wrongly we need the next cohort of individuals and organizations and industry that are willing to say like there is a whole new unlock in the way that we understand ourselves in the universe at our fingertips when you need to build up your team to handle the growing chaos at work use indeed sponsored jobs it gives your job post the boost it needs to be seen and helps reach people with the right skills certifications and more spend less time searching and more time actually interviewing candidates who check all your boxes listeners of this show will get a $75 sponsored job credit at indeed.com slash podcast that's indeed.com slash podcast terms and conditions apply need a hiring hero this is a job for indeed sponsored jobs now it loads faster quotes start at the low pro desk got a material list handwritten on a sticky note or saved as a photo perfect bring it to us and get a quote in minutes and if you don't see what you need on the shelf we'll help you get it you can access thousands of products beyond what's available in store or on lows.com right from the lows pro desk build quotes faster and source the materials you need to keep your jobs moving just like that at lows yeah yeah and it's it's it's almost um the tech you're describing isn't insane you know eegs and brain mapping yeah and you know and then getting into a subconscious state it's like this stuff was written about like years you know it's silva mind control you know all these sorts of things you know uh so it's that's not the super complicated it's actually just being open to the fact that your consciousness has an impact on the material world so that's that's actually the limiting factor um it's so interesting to hear your story because it dovetails with so many other stories that i've encountered like you know dan sherman is this uh guy who went on my show who wrote a book called above black and he was uh you know air force electronics intelligence he went to um i believe it was supposed to be it was in maryland and maybe it was fort meade where he was going to do some um you know continuing education and then he got taken to this nsa complex and he was given these headphones told to take these pills and then was told to lock onto a sine wave and flatten the sine wave i could definitely affect the the motion and i could do it just at will have you experienced anything like no exactly what he's talking about okay yeah we had different terms like square the circle yeah things like that but you know probably uh who knows if he was actually looking at a real sine wave or was he looking at something that just like visually looked you know behaved as a sine wave it could have was the underlying signal could have visually just looked like a sine wave and and then i don't know if the binaural beats actually match that but he he said that that got him into a state where he could communicate with extraterrestrials and the way he was briefed it was called project preserve destiny they said that his mother uh while she was pregnant was was abducted by aliens and genetically altered he was genetically altered as a fetus in her womb to have more of a psychic position potential for communicating with these you know extraterrestrial or non-human intelligence there's something there you know and like props to him for sharing what is like a very vulnerable aspect of that because like that just sounds bonkers to a lot of people uh but there is certainly some genetic aspects to psychic potentials uh you know like rare blood types you know like i'm a rhesus negative i know we talked about that rh negative yeah whether whether there's a correlation or not it's like highly highly you know disputed uh but like a lot of people with that blood types they say you know the veil's a little thinner for me i'm a little more clairvoyant you know yeah maybe one of many if anything i don't think it's it's probably that easy you know maybe there are some genetic carriers that like deep down i i think there's certainly a there there but um in reality i i think we all possess an underlying amount of disability you know to perceive extrasensory information i think maybe some individuals just perhaps have like a higher ceiling yeah than others well a very high up person in in government who i won't out because i don't think he wants to be outed but uh basically corroborated sherman's story and so you know unfortunately i hate saying anonymous source but you know take that with a grain of salt if you want um and he has this dd214 and he even in his book he didn't mention one of the bases and then we figured out one of the bases it was in southern italy and because he took a photo of it in his book you didn't have the internet back then so you couldn't reverse image search and i called him out on it it was san vito normandy or something and he was like yep that was the base and then the the other base was off it um you know i think in nebraska and so his story kind of checks and then i had another uh you know electronics intelligence guy named dan hogg um you know who uh i believe worked for the director of national intelligence and you know his long history in electronics intelligence stuff he's saying seems totally legit and he's just a super normal cool guy um so it's so wild to me you know and then it's this is what it cuts to the core of the matter because all this stuff is hidden in plain sight that's the big key right and that's what i tell you know everyone in my story right it's plausible deniability is key it is not grandiose it's like if you want to hide something you blend it in for somebody they're day job was going to the victory baker services center and that you say this you know in a great blog post you wrote they would go to the starbucks around the corner or whatever and talk casually about their job which is recruiting for this ufo covert program it's not like some crazy dark i think like all the conspiratorial you know just um imaginations you know out there have kind of created the stigma of it's like highly secret it's like actually it's highly secret certainly but it's hidden in plain sight it's not compartmented like you'd think it's going to operate through channels that you know carry and allow plausible deniability right are you going to question if the air force is setting up a road perimeter or would you question if the local police department are there less right like you're going to flow through the channels that you can you're not going to make yourself a target 100 ross colthart is a really hard-nosed good journalist who really vets you know uh his sources and uh uh you know i'm sure he went very deep with you you you also mentioned odyssey systems is that something that he uncovered are you uncovered in this yeah there there's certainly some connections there uh you know whether the exact contractor personnel or not uh we're odyssey systems is like highly debated i i think some of the underlying like tech platforms that were being used just in terms of like data management um we're odyssey systems but uh i believe that there's quite a bit that points to mitre my understanding it's so fascinating yeah have you heard of andre puharich by any chance puharic yes yes yes yes and um highly synonymous you know i kind of look at puharic is like he uh he likely championed the earlier iteration of research that i later experienced you know in in the program a lot of the same similarities you know his ideal space kids right in upstate new york upstate new york nonetheless uh yeah there's quite a few similarities there upstate new york he had them channeling things in faraday cages and non-human intelligence and uh they were often very high psi power very clairvoyant um just really fascinating and you have to wonder i think the gate program was started by sydney marland in 1972 and this was before the church committee and so this is before a lot of the malfeasance around mk ultra cia mind control that sort of stuff was kind of excavated by frank church and you know the congress and the civilian world and i wonder if it was formed somewhat with the intent of funneling in you know kids who have psionic predisposition potential or whatever to these programs yeah you know the way that i typically say this to people is like gate itself is is benign right by by all regards at least in my consideration it's that there has been a different entity that is utilizing gate behind the scenes to find a pre-selected pool of people and pull them into the progress because gate itself like does great things right like it pushes people to stem there's there's a lot of benefits that are not you know crazy conspiratorial uap thing it's more that there is an element that is looking at the pool of gate people and plucking from them right so like gate is kind of used as this just general identifier and funnel it itself is not bad but there's someone else in there yeah and pulling from it what's your theory do you have like a consciousness theory which i mean it's it's like the hardest thing to sort of make falsifiable right it's hard to understand the causal mechanism of the random event generators what's causing yeah wave function collapse or you know even wave function collapse might be a poor way of putting it you know uh but even you know a lot of the godfathers of quantum mechanics or even the copenhagen interpretation it's like you we observe the wave function and it collapses what does that mean and how do we know that it's just particles kind of independent of us or waves rather you know uh you know turning into discrete particles you know independent of the there's literally it's unfalsifiable there's no way to argue that the superposition doesn't exist in the quantum detector and it's not the quantum detector you know causing the collapse like the observer could be caught and all these people how far do you want to go back on like the observational metrics yeah it's just like how do you keep well that's the part that's the ordeal with the awareness right like you almost can't right that's where you can kind of get back to the point of like you can't take out observation you can't take out awareness it's complete you can't remove it even in sort of the delayed choice experiment or even in like uh you know just basic quantum mechanics you choose to make the measurement and then you're collapsing the wave function so like let's like totally back up for a moment and i'll use a little bit of this example like the the story as we know it right here we are as humans having this conversation you know most of us have been told something you know along these lines that uh we live in a materialistic universe right that earth is essentially a rock it is orbiting the sun right we live in this material rocky solar system uh we live on it we're humans we're kind of this happy accident our brains just happen to be producing this thing of consciousness locally and you you you live and die you know it's pretty sad when you really think about that uh you know my experience was being taught trained and having experiences that validate this that we don't necessarily live in a materialistic world we live in something a lot more akin to a field that is taking on a materialistic form as we interact with it but the underlying substrate is not fixed it's not rock it's actually something far more reflexive than that and consciousness and awareness is the in-between that can see both worlds that can interact with both worlds and actually exert effects on both worlds so you begin to see the world not necessarily some fixed static materialistic universe that we live in you see it as something that's dynamic reflexive and the underlying substrate is not materialistic it's how we perceive it at our level of consciousness how do synchronicities work i don't know you know it's gosh yeah let's talk about time huh yeah uh interestingly i i think you know for people aren't familiar like synchronicities right like number one i think they're highly personal okay i think they're highly highly highly personal um and i think that's the thing that's the thing that's the thing and i think you know if you subscribe to a version of the universe where you know whether through dimensions or something else like maybe there's a concept of your higher self right like there's a consciousness you know up and beyond this body that maybe is like steering you right or like hey you have two options right or left but if we give you the synchronicity a little sense of deja vu like maybe you get highly reflective in that moment and almost change the outcome right so i think of like synchronicities almost as like this communication between a higher version or a version of yourself perhaps in a different timeline that's allowing you to critique your experience here it's a little wink or a nudge you know in the right direction or something it also feels like it's a you know kind of exemplifying maybe a um a reduction in entropy so if you think of time you it's hard to define time without you know um defining it with respect to oscillations of an electromagnetic wave or the movement of macroscopic bodies and time really is a way of defining time it's a way of defining time it's a way of defining time it's a way of defining time it's a way of defining time it's a way of defining time it's a way of defining time it really doesn't exist without uh separation like if you know pre-big bang you can think of like the world the world at rest is is entirely timeless and so time has to be between two objects and uh uh or it has to involve movement there's there's nothing fundamental about and so because it's the most used noun and because it's undefinable without respect to those things it feels like this soup that we're swimming in that's like impossible to get outside of yeah and so it's a way of defining time and so i think it's a way of defining time and so the the synchronicity thing is like um i don't know i don't i don't know how you uh yeah i'm sort of going full schizo here yeah no i love it this is the fun part uh i i'm i'm with you i i think uh just to untangle the two like yes synchronicities you know the causal mechanism i'm not sure how i look at them as my own life you know as i look at them as like little beacons of like guiding you know maybe it's like either a whoa the clock's 333 like let me just think for a moment what am i doing in this world i don't know i don't know what i'm doing in this world what am i thinking should i think more critically here right or you know maybe their encouragement that you're on the right path right it's kind of like what you make of them uh but for me it's like i look at it as like highly personal right more of like a guiding factor uh but like getting back into like time right and like kind of like untangling the two is like i think largely our current understanding of space time is going to change the more that we really look into awareness and consciousness um i'm not convinced that it's like the static measure you know of the universe or a law of nature or something like that but i think it's going to change the more that we look as we know it you know i think it's far more reflexive i think you know depending on localized environments it's highly changing i think the awareness or the observer perhaps may actually have an influence on time or maybe the flow of time too so i think so too and before mechanical clocks time was only embodied and it was talked about in malleable ways and so time freezing wasn't like oh it's a felt sense of time freezing it was actually maybe freezing you know especially if yeah go for it i was just gonna say like this gets more interesting too as you think about the technological age that we're in like the more that we measure and observe right the more i wonder if we're actually constraining ourselves a little bit right because like if it was back in the 1600s things were very magical uh we're figuring out now consciousness and awareness has the ability to influence things you can direct your experience from it so like hey if you ran off into the woods and you're like i want to go find someplace magical maybe that might be a good idea i don't know i don't know i don't know i don't know i don't know manifests and materializes because there's no one else watching you're in a quantumly unentangled state and you like actually travel there right but now that we're in this localized environment where we're watching and measuring and limiting everything perhaps that's actually having a constrictive aspect on reality where it's like oh you can't just your range of options are limiting because now there has to be this connection point that makes sense between this observer that observer and that observer it's no longer just you and the universe that's embodied it's all these other mechanisms in between you have all these things being snapped to grid instead of like staying in this possibility space yeah super positionality yeah it's so fascinating you know well um rudolf steiner is this great austrian philosopher who uh you know i'm a big fan of and um he wrote a book uh called goethe's theory of knowledge goethe you know obviously the german you know poet polymath from 18th century you know 100 years before steiner was writing and he wrote a book called goethe's theory of knowledge and he wrote a book called and goethe went to strasbourg cathedral and strasbourg was this sort of you know gothic cathedral that was seen as way too ornate and chaotic in you know for that time which was you know more about kind of you know a sparse functionality and uh it was you know heavily criticized and he experienced this merging with the cathedral and it was this sort of very important thing in his life and he then predicted that the next epistemological paradigm shift would be cognition by identification um so instead of cognition through this observer observed separation this duality it would be like you would embody the thing that you're trying to understand you wouldn't study it from a distance from afar and that seems awfully like a lot of these you know techniques you were you know being told to do in this covert baker victory services program right yeah you become it right you you you you embody it you become it or like even in in the extreme cases that i was doing right it's like there's an aspect of disembodiment and then re-embodiment right yeah because of the thing but i i think like in rudolph uh and rudolph's kind of thinking here too it's not necessarily like like that's a very almost materialistic aspect of what you know i was doing it's like i'm leaving my body i'm getting into another object to take it on i think like that can just be applied at so many levels of life hmm like it can also be applied to like your own cognition of yourself right like i what comes up for me is uh you know i kind of think back to this too it's just like become who you want to become fake it till you make it works for a reason right because you're embodying something that's already there and then your reality is kind of conforming around you for that so uh there's a lot more wisdom in there that meets the surface for sure and and then you just have to do it you fake it till you make it works if the faking it exists on a real subconscious level like you have like sub intentions so there's something to the secret and to all these sort of manifesting practices and then it feels like some people are like running on ice they're running in place or whatever and they clearly have all sorts of sub intentions that are very self-sabotagey and they don't quite actually translate and work and so you have to get deeper into that the substrate and you know that that seems really hard maybe you can do it with some brain mapping biofeedback techniques but i don't know if we have a pure science of that you know yeah yeah and i don't i don't think that like you know even again with like next level consciousness next level side like i i personally like even on this journey you're like i've gotten mris you know and a few things stand out i think like you know gary nolan's done some really great research like i have a very unique caudate and put him in there's a lot of white matter going on there yep yep there's certainly a correlation but so but real quick i wanted because the audience so uh uh gary nolan stanford professor tenured microbiologist he's doing all these studies that on the caudate nucleus and putamen which is this part of the basal ganglia and if that's very neuronally dense the person seems to have high uh psi powers high sort of mind over matter ability and then also seems to encounter more sort of uap ufo stuff and so you got an mri and you have yeah i have a very high level striation right so essentially the semi-mri like in the kadi and the pudamin there's a high level of these white matter stripes right um however i don't think that's it like i i think what we're going to find is the more that we look for physiological markers uh you know like like the answer for consciousness is not looking at the materialistic aspect don't look at the physiological symptoms i don't think that's what we're going to find it i i think we're going to find a lot more about actually going in the intrinsic you know whether that be the metaphysical the the the woo-woo spiritual the the quantum observational right like however whatever glasses you want to put in or put on to wear to better understand this use them they're all the same thing also if this is something that you're going to be able to use it's going to be able to this is some sort of simulation or computation or something. If you find the infinite money-making machine, you know, you figure out some sort of causal physical mechanism for psychic powers or whatever. Do you think that if there's any sort of intentionality behind the game that you're being, that you're playing, do you not think that the person or the entity or God or whatever would change the source code on you? Like you're not going to figure out the one thing that allows you to hack the entire game. This is the, this is like the right-hand path versus the left-hand path, right? Or like there's always been, you can think of like the crazy scientist who's like, I want to take Psy and I'm going to figure out the mechanisms and predict the world, right? And it's all going to be for me. Well, it's like that always ends in disaster. That's ended in disaster for every, you know, imperialist emperor, et cetera. Like it doesn't just have to be Psy and science, right? Like that's the left-hand path. The right-hand path of like, wow, there's something here. If we actually work on the understanding, the embodiment and, you know, the progression of it, maybe from a collective measure outside of the self, then it seems to scale with you, right? And you get like compounding effects. And I think like up until this point, like this has been the story of disclosure. There's been a highly finite amount of people in the left-hand path that know information that you haven't been allowed to know, right? Now for the first time in history, the right-hand path is opening up. So the more that we collectively actually work, together, I think the more that we get, you know, both individually and collectively. Agreed. Yeah. Whether it's Lord of the Rings or Prometheus or Faust or all of these legends end the same way and it's not good. Yeah. If you try to use the sacred thing, I think there's even a line in the Old Testament about this, where if you try to like turn any of the sacred stuff into a business, like it always backfires. Always backfire. And so just don't try to like, you know, beat the thing into submission. Go. Go into it non-coercively, not for any sort of instrumental use. And just if you're curious and you want, you know, your own growth and ascension, great. But otherwise, you know, it's not going to go well. There's a delicate dance there, right? It's like threading the needle, right? Because we live in this capitalistic society and like, well, you have to make money, right? And I think there's a lot of people. You can just look at, you know, people who are very advanced spiritually. They like want to share gifts to humanity. Like always the roadblock is like, well, how do you make money and support yourself with it too, right? So it's like there's a very fine line. I don't know if it's like the answer is just don't make money, but I think it's like have the right intentionality between how you're making your money. What do you think when you're communing with these orbs and UFOs that sort of show up? What do you think they are? You went through some of the thinking and theories, you know, earlier. But like, I guess maybe because, you know, we're grasping at straws on theories. What is it? What does it feel? Like every time it's a little bit different, right? Every time it's a little bit different. And we covered the theories, right? Like one could be extraterrestrial to subscribe to more dimensional interdimensional, you know, three could be us, right? Like a mirror back, right? Could be all these things at once. But in terms of like, what does it feel like? Right. For me, it's highly I almost feel it hemispherically. Right. So like, let's say there's an orb or I'll kind of recreate. Like yes, Lynn experience for you, for those that have kind of heard that. Right. So what that looks like is I took a group of about 30 people. We had a highly dedicated like track list that I produced, like specific binaural beats, specific frequencies. We're outside in a beautiful setting. And I'm giving people instructions on just how to ground themselves, like basic meditative tools. I give them a visualization exercise. So they're visualizing when we actually begin this experience. And then everyone starts the same track list at the same time. So we're all. Synchronized. So imagine a 30 minute playlist. You're all listening at the same time. And when you're all synchronized like that, you almost create this like group coherence, right? Super interesting things happen with RNGs in this environment, too, which I just will say as like an environmental sensor of what's happening environmentally, something's happening, right? RNGs will shift sigmas. There's other environmental sigmas. So again, like there's a whole chapter of research of like consciousness in relation to the environment, not just NHI. That has not been looked at yet. NHI is almost the byproduct of what happens in like a field environment like this, right? That feels right. When you talk to the remote viewers who are systematically trained at like getting into these heightened states, it almost feels like UFOs and aliens and all these things. They're like an incidental byproduct of everything else. And they're so casual to like their environment. They're like, oh, we we looked into this ET base or whatever. And it's like it's so it's like so. Not a thing for them because they have like an expanded scope of reality. But anyway, so keep going. No, you're totally right. You're totally right. Yeah, that's again where I really hope it's not just we need finite lab conditions. This is like what happens when you start bringing everyone together, right? And a shared meditation, a shared synchronized setting. What environmental signals can you look at? What's changing, right? And now change the conditions like task the people in the group differently. What changes in the environmental conditions? Like there's so much yet to be discovered right in front of us that we haven't looked into yet. But to answer your question specifically, right? Like we're doing a shared visualization. Everyone's listening to the same track list the same time. It's highly synchronized. I have an ability to get out of my body, right? And kind of visualize my surroundings out of body. And when something like an orb, right? Or a manifestational phenomena showing up for me somatically, I actually feel this like spinning or correlation between my hemispheres. It's like as if you took my right and left hemisphere, my brain and my skull. And it's like they began oscillating at different speeds and different tempos. And it's almost like the higher they speed up or the higher the vibration, the closer the phenomena or the manifestation is that I'm actually interacting with. And then sometimes it's telepathy through voice. Sometimes it's telepathy through words. What is actually the better question to ask here? It's not how I experience it. It's that every single human, every person, every psychic, right? Experiences it differently. And it depends more so on their cognition platform, right? So if you're, again, if you're a kinesthetic person, how you experience the phenomena is going to be kinesthetic. If you're looking at information, very auditory, like you hear things, you're going to experience auditory telepathy, right? If you're visual like me, you might experience things very visual. You see it in your mind's eye. You're interacting with the orb and it's distantly away, right? All of them can be true. It depends more on us as the receiver and how we perceive it. It's interesting that you experienced the synchronization of hemispheres. I believe in 85 or 86, there's a CIA document that's now been, you know, the Freedom of Information Act has been used against it. And it's all about this hemi-sync technique that Robert Monroe in Virginia, this consciousness researcher kind of pioneered. Now you have the Monroe Institute there. And it's all about using these binaural beats that are slightly off. So the brain entrains them to synchronize. And then three, through the entrainment, you get this synchronization of the entire, the whole brain. And then you experience all sorts of, you know, amazing stuff in a kind of expanded reality. So it's just so fascinating. It's so interesting. And another thing I thought, have you ever, you know, Arthur C. Clark, of course, the, the sci-fi novel. Sorry, the sci-fi writer. He wrote a, have you heard of Childhood's End? Have you ever read that book? No. It's all about, um, these alien beings that kind of, uh, are overseeing earth. And they both infiltrate the government in these covert ways. And then they also speak only to these autistic nonverbal children. And that's how they communicate. And I think of, you know, your experience in the center you were at and think of the telepathy tapes, which, you know, is now super in vogue and popular is an amazing podcast by Kai Dickens. About all these, these nonverbal autistic children and the, the paradigms that they live in, which are really heart centered and involve love and, and also a lot of these other beings and knowledge that seems like her medic and like, you know, through channels that you would never have been able to have, you know, to, to get through inductive logic. Like they come out, like they know certain Egyptian hieroglyphics and stuff like it does feel like that. And then all this whole modern disclosure movement, which is sort of, you know, a little ridiculous. but it's happening and it feels like that book is happening yeah totally i have two like oh gosh there's so many ways i want to take this um you know actually i'll i'll build on a little bit of this without like saying too much but this is like a very personal experience for me um there was an individual one of the guests on the telepathy tapes episode i won't get into the names but i actually interacted with right like i had a zoom phone call um with them really quick right light years away um but had just a great call got you got introduced and then i went to sleep that evening and then that evening i had the most extreme astral experience being taken out of my body uh to like a vibrational state that i've never experienced before like super super high felt it just in my entire being and i was like very clearly on what i would best describe as like the hill and when i was there it felt like i was in an auditorium right there was all these other people with me and interestingly enough um i had this image kind of like that came into my head and it was from the person that i interacted with on the tapes and they were showing me an image of um a kid named ken that was in the program that i was in at baker victory who was a non-verbal autistic and they were communicating to me that like hey because you know ken and you interacted with ken we can find you through them right like we're all connected in this certain way and like that completely changed and like since then i've still had repeating experiences of like being brought to this very high frequency spot um so there's a lot there right with the non-verbal side of um you know the autistic world yeah that's fascinating it's almost like you can link up with another node or something and then you mentioned that at baker victory services a lot of their work was having you quantum unentangled with things that you were entangled with so because you're so high empathy and you have kind of a a porous outer shell at the time you would just glom onto things and then you'd have to like sort of reel your your your full self back in or it's almost as if like so for thinking from like a quantum perspective as you're thinking about remote viewing like other viewers have talked about this right like your own bias your own life experience your own perception of what's going on is actually going to create how you view things right so again for people that are like looking we'll back up real quick uh because this is like an important thing to say so as we've we're here at the critical component of like disclosure right uh there's something more than us there's a different intelligence out there all of this i i think like if i was at other intelligence i would probably be like looking at humanity laughing like you guys need to get out of your own way and before we should focus on like communing with nhi and communing you know with what very well may be angels like whatever you want to call them we should probably understand ourselves first and we should probably understand our own reality first and then if we do that maybe you know we'll aspire to this right because it's like again just like we talked about with psychedelics like don't bypass right yeah like we can't bypass what the lesson here i think is more of like this mirror that's being presented to humanity of like you're on this very weird path there's a lot of people that are like oh there's a lot of trepidation ahead of you you haven't like understood your own relationship with reality so there's like one wish for humanity that i have it's like take this as a catalyzing moment you're not alone in the universe great um but the real lesson isn't just you're not alone in the universe what do you make of that the real lesson is there's far more to reality than you've been told and you have the right to explore that and what would you say to the many people who your story probably resonates very deeply with and and i'll take it even a step far further your story could represent you know there are people who've been abducted by you know what they think are you know you know non-human intelligence or ets uh you know often they're gray aliens and they'll see the cover of communion whitley streber's book and i've had some of these people on my show where they'll be at a bookstore and they'll see it and it'll bring back these memories for them and for you it was you know the stress of a startup uh you know a relationship going south that brought up your own memories i'm sure this show might bring up some memories for people how would you advise them yeah well like right now the perfect container isn't built right um but this is a personal venture for me where i'm trying to build that container that's like safe supported um and has the capital and resources to actually give people you know some direction right so like in my case specifically you know all of this was hidden you know primarily under dissociation right and if we look at psychology today like dissociation is like the least studied of like trauma responses um and even if we want to take this a step further right like it's not just helping gate kids it's actually like we are re-evaluating what psychology is you know if we go back to like there's carl young right and he had this kind of spirituality or like esoteric perspective merged with psychology and we kind of took like a left-hand turn uh and ended up with what we know as now as like the dsm you know i think largely it's not just helping gate kids but i think through the art of helping gate kids and better like understanding dissociation you know we might be able to build a brand new book of psychology like we're talking about the non-locality of consciousness right like how many psychologists are trained on that totally you know if there is this more um embedded deep link between mind matter i mean even that phrase mind matter embeds kind of a duality that probably doesn't exist right so i think it's a good idea to do that i think it's a good idea to do that i think it's a good idea to do that i think it's a good idea to do that i think it's a good idea right uh it changes psychology wholesale you know like uh and it's kind of more empowering than some of these like oh we're just going to use you know cognitive behavioral therapy or internal family systems or jungian symbology or whatever like no you can you if you can somehow you know change the way your subconscious frames things you can really affect the person's reality and you know obviously in negative ways as you've experienced or experienced extremely positive ways totally yeah you know i personally think like the greatest gift to humanity you know that like i could be a part of right is actually helping in the psychology process because you know if we look today with all these outdated treatments and people treating symptoms right and never necessarily getting over depression you know never fully understanding how trauma has affected them you know in their upbringing um i think that there could just be such a gift there too so this is something that we're championed with the telepathy center um you know so if you're like a clinician right you're like a clinician right you're like a clinician right you're like a if you're someone that's on this frontier side of psychology you're willing to think outside of the box like contact us contact me um if you're someone with clean conscious capital right like looking to support those that maybe have been um you know targeted this population of gay survivors please contact us right um again like the container for this doesn't exist today um but it's something that i'm hoping to build it's a beautiful message man and and uh i'm really excited to see what you do on a go-forward basis and uh how can people do that for themselves download uh this new app that you have yeah yeah so you can go to the the telepathy center.com um we'll be releasing here in june uh check out everything so excited to share that with the world um that's kind of the primary updates you can find me at jordanjozak.com too just my personal bio is on there um but really looking forward to getting this tool in the hands of everyone and yeah showing um hopefully what may be like the start of a brand new renaissance uh i i think you know my last little message for like humanity is i i have walked through the darkness figuratively literally you know all of it in my life and there's so much with this disclosure narrative and paradigm that is conspiratorial and it is dark and it's not that it's not true it's just that we have a moment in time to take that right-hand path or take the left-hand path and while all this may be scary and completely earth-shattering to some it's also the potential for a brand new renaissance for a lot of us and for a whole new planet to be basically given brand new tools uh brand new ways of looking at life brand new physics like i don't think it's necessarily something we're going to figure out in the lab i think we're going to figure out within our own minds and we may figure out that there's a correlation to our models of physics and the way that we believe our subconscious looks at physics right like what if the underlying mechanism is actually inside us and outside of us this is one of my favorite shows i've ever done i hate to even call it a show if that feels sacrilegious for the really intense deep conversation we just had but uh i hope you know people can get something out of it too and i hope you enjoyed it yeah no i had a blast like i want to keep going like we'll have to do another one let's run it back do another and um yeah so excited for the opportunity thanks for having me on jesse oh dude it was an honor if you've made it this far in the show then i know you care enough to hear about this our show 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