325. The Twin Sleepwalking Murder

You're listening to an ONO media podcast. Hey everyone, welcome back to the podcast. This is Marta with my husband, I'm Payton Moreland. And I'm Getmoreland. And he's the husband. And I'm the husband. Hey everybody. What's up? How's it going? How's life? Tell me something. Actually, did you see that when I told everyone to tell me something cool? Yeah. Or tell me something. The comments. It's some pretty amazing comments. When Lady finished chemotherapy, she's cancer-free. She rang the bell. Yeah. I'm using congratulations. Keep telling us what's going on in your guy's life. I know we get a lot of DMs and a lot of messages, but comment, let us know what's going on, let us know what a compliment, accomplishments you have in your life, small, big, anything. Love it. What accomplishments do you got this week, babe? I worked a full shift. Payton did work at the bagel shop today. She good. She great. Daisy got a haircut. She's looking pretty. She was getting pretty long, she was not very happy about it, but that's okay. And then I'm just going to jump into my 10 seconds here. You know, one thing that I think is impossible to fix, I don't even know if fix is to correct the answer. Whether you're cooking food at home, you're cooking food in a restaurant, you go out to eat in a restaurant, just I maybe it's just a me issue, but it happens at the bagel shop all the time. I just I come home. I smell like everything bagels or whatever bagels we're making just here, just I smell like bagels. Same thing happens even when I go out to eat though, I go out to a restaurant. I smell like food, whether I got to Mexican food, an Asian place, American place, whatever it is. I smell like food at home. Same thing. Cook food at home. Boom. Just stinks like those hoods don't work, nothing works. You just smell like food, I don't like that because then you got to go shower and then I maybe it's just an OCD thing, but I hate it. My hair smells like it, my clothes smell like it, like I hate it. I hate going out to a restaurant and then going home and then I'm just like dang, but there's nothing you can do about it, no matter where you go. It just happens. No, the worst. Because the girl is when you do hair wash day because hair wash day takes so long to wash, so long to blow dry, so long to style, and then you go out to eat and you're like here. Yeah, and you smell like that. Yeah. There really is nothing you can do. You're hair. It just is what it is. Anyways, that's my 10 seconds. It's something I think about because, I mean, it happens to me every day now and there's no escaping it. I don't know. I don't know why it bugs me, but here we are. It bugs Peyton too, so it's not just me. Other than that, we're chilling, recording podcast episodes, working, working at the big little shop a lot, hanging out with Daisy and living live, making content. So yeah, that's what we got and I think on that note, let's hop into this week's case. Our sources for this episode. Sorry. I have to say. Sorry. I interrupt the Peyton. It's still bring out the craziest list when I talk. I don't know. I don't know what to tell you guys. I feel like it's not. Is it this bad in person? Like do I have a list like this? Like have you listened to the episodes recently? Yeah. I think the mic makes it worse. Right. I don't know where it is. Anyways. Okay. Let's hop into today's case. Our sources for this episode are longcrime.com dailymail.co.uk, sandhillsexpress.com, the daily reviews.com, kens5.com, medium.com, abc13.com, moviedelic.com, courttv.com, the cinema, holic.com, people.com, symbiotica.com, CBSnews.com, k-o-u.com, box26, Houston.com, A-E-T-V.com, and A-O-L.com, A-O-L, I haven't used A-O-L in years. I think it's fair to say that the relationships we have with our siblings can become some of the most complicated in our life. That constant shift between love and affection, annoyance, and competition. One day they're your best friend, the only person who could possibly understand you, and the next you can't stand to be in the same room with them. So take that and imagine being a twin. It's a connection that most of us could never understand, sharing a womb, sharing a life every step of the way, literally sharing the same DNA. There's even theories that suggest twins might be telepathically connected, that they can fill each other's emotions, sense when something is wrong without a single word being spoken. It's a bond that's never supposed to break. So when it does, it's not just shocking, it's unthinkable, especially when those ties are severed from the inside. Which is why the question we'll be asking in today's case is, was this intentional or do stronger bonds lead to more devastating destruction? And disclaimer before we start this episode, it does include discussions on the death of a minor, so please as always listen with care. And today I want to take you to a little suburb outside of Houston, Texas, and this suburb is called Katie. It is here in this town of about 25,000 people that Michael and Kathy Elliott have chosen to raise their family, their three kids, including their 17-year-old twins, Benjamin and Megan Elliott. So this suburb, Katie, is the kind of place you imagine when you think of an all-american slice of life. I'm talking freshly manicured lawns, kids riding their bikes, the streetlights coming on just before dark. And while most kids work hard to make and maintain friendships, even in a place as cute and picturesque as this, Ben and Megan haven't ever had to feel lonely because they're twins, they have each other. And according to everyone who knew them, they really were best friends. They were inseparable since the day they were conceived. Ben always looked out for Megan, she was his safe space, the one she'd run to when she felt overwhelmed, bullied, shy. And he loved being her protector, the one who she could always count on. They went to the same school together, they ran in the same group of friends, they had a lot of the same interests, but they had their own little quirks as well. Benjamin was a little bit more soft-spoken. He was kind of an engineer with a brain for mechanics and problem-solving. And Megan was more the creative type, she was intuitive and pathetic. She loved riding, drawing, kind of being an artist in every facet of the word. Her friends and family said she was the kind of person who saw beauty in the tiny things in life. And her art was how she turned those little details into something worth remembering. The sound of a bird in the morning, the way the sun reflected off the walls. She was a gentle soul who was just starting to come out of her shell in 2021, at 17 years old. She was beginning to make her own group of friends online. She'd actually just launched her own YouTube channel to showcase her art. She was finding her own place in the world, kind of an identity outside of being Benjamin's twin sister, which probably wasn't easy for Megan, especially after she was diagnosed with autism in her teens. Luckily, her home life was stable. Her parents were supportive, embraced their twins' individuality. Their mom, Kathy, was a senior manager for the Girl Scouts of America while their father, Michael, was a stay-at-home dad. And they also had an older sister, Elizabeth, who Megan could look up to and confide in for the girly or things in life. Now in 2021, the twins were looking forward to their futures. Whether that was together or separate was still uncertain. They had been touring separate colleges, and it looked like they might really go their own way soon, but for now, it seemed like they were soaking up the last year of high school together. They were getting long, everything seemed great at home, but that all changed in September. Now, the night of September 28th, 2021, was like any other night in the Elliott household. Ben had been home from school for the last two days sick, but apparently on this night he's feeling better, so he and his father spent hours playing different video games while Megan was just off in her room doing her own thing. And one of the games Benjamin and his dad played that night was called Survive the Nights. And it's basically a post-apocalyptic survival game. And in it, Ben mentioned how one of the knives the character he used, it's kind of like a military-style weapon, looked a lot like one of the knives that his dad owned. It was one he'd actually had his eye on for a while. So his dad at this point, Michael, puts the game on pause, goes and gets this military style knife and says, if you like it, like, if you've been wanting it, just have it. Like, if you love it so much, just have it. So that night, Ben goes to sleep in his own room with this knife. His dad has given him on his nightstand. I have no idea where this is going. I mean, I think I do now, but. Several hours later in the morning of September 29th, Benjamin allegedly wakes up. Only he discovers he's not laying down in his bed, the middle of the night. Instead, he's standing in his twin sister, Megan's room, the freak I get out of here right now. And, according to him, he feels something sticky on his hands. He looks down and notices he is hovered in blood. There is no way he just killed his twin sister. And there's Megan barely breathing from a stab wound in her neck. Ben's hand, when he wakes up, is still wrapped around the knife. His father gave him the night before everything starts unfolding. Ben places a pillow on Megan to stop the bleeding. And then races back to his bedroom for his phone. It is about 441 AM when he dials 911. His voice is trembling. Like you can hear it. It's panic. And he says, I just killed my sister. And as the operator keeps him talking, he claims, I thought it was a dream. I thought it was a dream. I took my knife and I stabbed her. Please, I don't want her to die. I'm so sorry. Oh my gosh. I cannot. This is insane. So the operator is like, go wake up your parents. And you can literally hear on this recorded call. This is something that I had watched multiple times before, even like creating the script for this case. But you can hear on the recorded call, when he starts screaming, frantically for them. Like he just, he just starts yelling in the middle of the night. His father quickly comes rushing into the room. And obviously he comes in and sees the site. His daughter is laying there, pale, barely breathing. And when he's like, what happened, and again, you can hear this, Benjamin quickly says, I killed Megan. I'm so sorry. It's words you never expect to hear. Oh my gosh. I am like sick to my stomach. I don't know. I don't know what I would do. Right. Just never expect your child to say this about your other child, especially when it's twins. These two are allegedly best friends super close. Now after the dad comes rushing in, the mother Kathy comes rushing in, Ben is still on the line with 9-1-1, so we can hear all of this. And 9-1-1 is walking him through CPR. He is frantically doing chest compressions on his sister when the medics and the police show up just a few minutes later. And from this point, the audio from the 9-1 call is now switched to police body cam. So all of this next scene I've watched on police body cam. The family is like frantically removed from the scene. So police and EMTs can basically try and resuscitate Megan. And meanwhile, on this footage, Ben is like just yelling out into the void for someone to wake him up. Like it's almost like he doesn't believe he's in shock. Like he still thinks he's in a nightmare, but this isn't the end of a nightmare. It's literally just the beginning of one because while the paramedics and police know as they're working on Megan that she is already dead, like this wound to her neck was devastating immediately. And they pronounce her dead at the scene, they refuse to tell the family for some reason. They don't tell them immediately like, yeah, she's gone. They just leave the family who's just kind of like, what do you mean? He killed her. Like the parents are in complete shock in this footage. And they're, I mean, it's so devastating at one point the dad looks at the brother Ben and is like, what did you do like, how, why did you do this? And Ben's like, I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. Like it is just like devastating footage. So they kind of just leave the family in this like just bewilderment while they're like, yeah, this, this girl is definitely dead. And they end up taking Ben out of the house in handcuffs and they place him in the back of a police cruiser. Now, he sits there. He is still soaked in his sister's blood. And basically for the next three hours, he's repeating over and over again, I just, I thought it was a dream. Like he's not quiet. He's very vocal. He's talkative and I just thought it was a dream. And his poor parents are just sitting there trying to figure out what's going on. What happened is Megan being transported to the hospital. Is their son really being arrested for murdering his twin sister? So there's just a lot of unanswered questions in this chaos. And because this is now an active homicide investigation and their house is now a crime scene, they won't let the Elliot's back inside to see their daughter. So like on the footage, they're like, please let us in the room, let us in the room. And they're like, you can't, they're working on her, but they aren't working on her anymore. She's dead. Kathy and Michael are begging, they're like, okay, can you just please take a picture of her so we can see her, like make sure she's okay. They refuse. Now eventually the parents get so frustrated and upset by the situation. And I mean, understandably so. They're in their own heart. 100%. They know that they're daughters in there. They had seen the first initial, you know, crime scene of her being clearly unwell. I'm not sure if I agree with not telling the parents of the child. And not letting like they're like, no, you can't go in there. You can't go in there. I don't think I agree with that. So they're frustrated and they call a close friend of theirs who is an attorney. And basically at this point, they realize this is next steps. Like their son just got put in a police cruiser and handcuffs. The police aren't letting them inside to see their daughter. And they're like, okay, we need an attorney because by the time the son comes up, Benjamin is sitting across from Harris County Sheriff's detectives in their interrogation room. And again, this is all on video. They want to know exactly in bent own words. What happened that morning or like, they're like, okay, now that some time has passed, we need to know every single detail. The way he describes it is like this, quote, "Have you ever had a really realistic nightmare where like just everything feels real, but also kind of off at the same time?" He explains to police that he had been dreaming. He had stabbed his sister and then when he woke up, the knife was in his hand. He was in her room and realized he had actually stabbed her. He tells them right away, like, I never made the conscious decision to do this. And during this interview, Benjamin is continuing to ask, like, is she alive? Is she alive? Because he still doesn't know. And he's trying, like he's focusing more on that than the actual interrogation. This is so sad and mind blowing. So instead of telling him the truth, they decide to not let him know if she's alive or dead yet. So one of the detectives says, last he checks, she was being examined, she was in the care of EMTs, but they already know that his sister is dead, but keeping this from him was apparently just like an interrogation tactic, a manipulation tactic. And one, they knew would keep Benjamin talking because they figure once, based on how he's acting, once they said, yeah, she's dead, he was going to just like lose it. Yeah. And then what he says next only makes them more confused. He then tells detectives that no, like, our relationship was good. I would never do anything to hurt Megan. She's my twin sister. I love her. There was no competition, no sibling rivalry. We hang out with all the same people. Like, there was absolutely no reason for me to do this intentionally. He tells the police you can search my foot. He offers up his phone here, have my phone, gives them the password. And when asked, Ben does tell them, I've never been diagnosed with any sort of mental health condition. I'm happy. We have a very happy home, like there's no problems at home. He was looking forward to college next year. He was going to study to be a mechanical engineer. He even tells the police, I'm supposed to take the SAT next weekend. But things really trigger detectives when around 11 a.m. that morning, they do finally break the news to Benjamin. They tell him, okay, Megan did not survive her injuries. She's gone. And again, the reason they had been putting off telling him this was because they were like, he's going to just be so distraught, he's not going to be able to answer any more questions. And they say this to him, he goes, hmm, not a cry or a scream, a, hmm, like interesting, like it's a very odd response based on like how he had been reacting. What? It's just an odd response, but again, yeah, I'm not judging the situation currently. someone who, if innocent, if completely innocent, if what he is saying is true, I don't know how you really judge his reaction to being told that because he, it's almost like he just, like, goes frozen, like in shock is what it seems. The response to the question is so like off-putting, like when he does it, it is a little eerie and uncomfortable. He's like, hmm, hmm, okay. The it becomes one of those critical moments in a case where like, this is what makes people question everything a little bit because his behavior is just not what you would expect from a brother who found out he just murdered his twin sister. Everything up till now, yes, on par with what you would think if he was really innocent. So this is when police are like, we got to keep looking at this. For example, they find it interesting that in Benjamin's retelling of that morning, he says that he only stabbed his sister once, though he admitted the whole thing felt hazy. He's like, it's like I'm trying to remember a dream. Like, I remember the stabbing, but it was in a dream to me. So he's like, this is what I remember, but Megan's autopsy tells a different story. According to the medical examiner, Megan had been stabbed not once, but twice and one of the wounds had severed her corroded artery and jugular vein. Okay. I mean, once, twice, I thought you were going to say like 10 times, you know what I'm saying? Like, I got police are just like, he said once, there's obviously two stab wounds, did he stab her once? And then the second stab wound is what woke him up. So now he thinks it was only once, oh, I see what you're saying, okay. But either way, very quickly, like, I'm talking this same day, Benjamin Elliott is charged for the murder of his twin sister. Now whether police believe his story or not, I think this could just be considered protocol, because even if you admit to manslaughter, you're still going to be like charged with it, you know what I mean? So for the next several days, Benjamin is placed on suicide watch while his family is working to pay his bail. And before I go on, imagine his parents. I don't want to, I just cannot imagine being in that situation. Like, I cannot imagine losing a child and then trying to figure out if your other child, like what's going on? And like, you don't want them in prison, if you believe that, like that mental, just maze, I can't. And when I tell you this, like the body cam footage is footage that has stayed with me for a really long time, because the pure confusion and devastation that these parents go through on this body cam of like bewilderment and anger at their son, because their daughter is dead, but also being like, it's going to be okay. We're going to get you an attorney because your son's looking at you going, I don't know. I don't know. Like just the dichotomy of the entire situation of being like the victim of, or the parent of the victim and the parent of the murderer. The whole thing is very perplexing, like it just, and like hard to believe. Like it just doesn't, I guess it makes, it's not clocking. It just doesn't make sense. Like it's not a believable situation, but this is obviously the situation we're in. So it's, and even though like this 911 call and the body cam tugs on your heartstrings, it is not that surprising that police are like, sleepwalking, you know what I mean? Like it is a little confusing because they also need to do their due diligence to make sure that it's true, which is like why when they realized it was two stab wounds versus one, even there like, well, what's going on? And then it didn't bleed fast. You know what I mean? He is finally released on bond the following Sunday, Kathy and Michael. His parents are waiting for him. They have lived every single day with these kids. And when Benjamin tells them again, all of this happened as the result of a sleepwalking episode, his parents firmly believe him. They've already lost one child, they're not going to lose another one too. So they decide, yep, we are fighting for Benjamin. We are fighting for the story that he is telling everyone about this murder. During the car ride home, they tell Benjamin they love him. They know he didn't mean to do this. They can see the remorse in his eyes. But that doesn't mean that they aren't scared of what might come next. The Elliott's know they can't be in their home after that day. So they then move into Kathy's mother's house and worried about Ben's own safety. They start sleeping in his room with him and like taking shifts watching him in the night. And eventually they even install an alarm on his bedroom door that alerts them if the bedroom door opens in the night because they're like, we don't want another episode. Of course, the lingering question in all of this is, why would Benjamin do something like this or rather from their perspective, how does something like this happen? Well, that's why Ben's parents, along with his lawyers, immediately start looking for answers. Answers Ben himself doesn't seem to have. Now as they're trying to like figure out how exactly is his story possible, his mother Kathy has a theory. She tells the lawyers that her own father was diagnosed with schizophrenia. And now she's worried that Ben was having a break and was possibly doing with similar symptoms. But when they sit him down with a psychiatrist, they find nothing alarming about Ben's mental health. No signs of schizophrenia, no signs of bipolar disorder, but they do think it's possible Ben was actually sleepwalking and thought he was in a dream when he killed Megan. Oh man, I don't know what that does legally. Yeah. I don't know how that plays out. There's actually a word for it. His lawyers believe he was experiencing something called parasomnia. It's something we've covered actually before if you remember the case of a scotfully infinex. He killed his wife. He claimed it was sleepwalking. He doesn't, it doesn't like they don't believe him. The jury didn't believe him. If you remember, he was convicted. Parasomnia, however, works as an umbrella term for a bunch of different sleep disorders. I used to sleepwalk pretty bad. See, and I've never sleptwalked and to me, the thought of sleepwalking feels just as impossible as this. Yeah. I don't anymore. I stopped a long time ago. Probably by the time I was 18, it stopped, but like in my young teen years, oh, I would walk around the house. I would go and talk to people. I have no idea. Like, my parents would the next morning would be like, you came and talked to us last night for two hours. I'm like, what are you talking about? See, to me, it's like- I would legit walk around and just do things and I would wake up and I was like, what? To me, it's like- To me, it's like- To me, it's like- Then murdering someone in a dream if you're fully able to be dreaming and having a conversation with someone is possible. I mean, yeah, I think- I mean, just because I used to sleepwalk and like, I know, like I literally would just do things. But to me, that just seems so far- Which, I mean, I totally, yeah. I get it. And if I woke up and you were like, sleepwalking and then I realized like, you were asleep and- That scared the crap out of you- Even the fact that like, you're standing and talking and asleep would scare me so bad. It's weird. I don't know how I did it. I don't know why I stopped, but I haven't done it in 12 years. I mean, longer, probably 15 years. Don't ever do it again. I'll try not to. Cause now I am the bigger one of your sleepwalking. So again, just to quickly give some background. Parasomnia is an umbrella. Basically, different sleep disorders, things that cause people to carry out certain behaviors in their sleep. Essentially, the body is awake while the brain is still sleeping, it's your typical sleepwalking. And sometimes people are dreaming and that can allow someone to act out their dreams. Doctors claim that certain people are more prone to experiencing parasomnia. So this is definitely a real thing, like those experiencing more stress, sleep deprivation, some medications have even been attributed to sleepwalking. And of course, having a family history of it makes you prone to. But the more the family starts digging into it, they believe the more they realize, maybe the signs were there all along. It started off with little things, mostly because I mean, Benjamin's history is about to get fully blown open to try to determine if he could have this severe case of parasomnia. Benjamin always had a hard time falling asleep and waking up. He usually had to set a few different alarms for school in the morning to make sure he actually heard them. And when they look back at their family tree, Kathy also recalls an uncle who used to sleep walk when he was a teenager. He said he would sometimes will. up outside in the garage holding like tools that you would like work on that he kept in the garage. She said there was another time when her uncle had walked in on his sister showering again, supposedly he was sleepwalking though. A similar thing happened to Kathy's aunt one time, she walked out of the house and into the woods in the middle of the night and when she woke up or came to she realized she was outside holding on to her family's dog. Here's the thing is I think this is possible like I 100% think it. But is it what happened? Yes, that's what I'm trying to figure out. And I'm sure that's what everyone else is trying to figure out. As for Benjamin, they do report this was not his first case of sleepwalking. When questioned, his older sister Elizabeth says she actually wants witnessed Benjamin herself. She said one night when Ben was around 10, he walked into her bedroom doorway when she said his name a few times and he like didn't really respond. She realized he was just asleep. She said she touched his shoulder, saw that his eyes barely opened and she just led him gently back to bed. Now one of Benjamin's friends remembered an incident too. He said, Benjamin was at a sleepover at his friend's house and when the friend woke up, they saw Benjamin was on the couch eating a donut. But he was asleep. See, that's the type of stuff I did. I would sleepwalk and I would drink soda. That's weird. I don't know what to tell you, babe. Yeah. See, to me, that just seems totally plausible then. Oh, no, you were having a dream. 100% plausible. I'm just trying to figure out if it's what happened. But it is. I would go, I would drink soda. I would like do things. It's freaky. I'm glad I stopped because it scares me even talking about it. That is so scary. It's scary. Apparently his friends, okay, imagine this at a sleepover right? He's just sitting there eating a donut. They think this is so funny. So they wake him up. And when they wake him up, Ben is like, what's going on? Yeah. Like why am I sitting here? And he is baffled about the fact that he's sitting on this couch eating a donut and it's like a whole ordeal. And they ask him, they're like, you were asleep. And he's like, I literally was dreaming. I was eating a donut. That's when he tells his friends. I was dreaming I was eating a donut. And then here I am like, actually eating one. My sleepwalking wasn't like that. I would just wake up the next day. And remember? No, no, they would tell me what I did. And I'm like, what do you? There's no way I did that. Like I would never remember anything. That's so crazy. Yeah. The problem is, although I've told you guys this, none of this can actually be considered evidence. Why? Because it's a, you know, sure, it supports the claims that Benjamin could have been sleepwalking when he killed Megan. But it's all circumstantial. And what they really needed was to scientifically prove that this was a real condition that Benjamin had number one and could not control number two. Okay. So the defense team hires some help. A neurologist who happens to be a leading expert in sleep disorders this guy named Dr. Gerald Simmons. Now, Dr. Simmons conducts two different studies with Ben in his labs. Each one performed about six weeks apart. He hooks Ben up to a bunch of different equipment that will monitor pretty much everything that happens to his body while he's asleep. Oxygen levels, brain waves, eye movement, heart rate, you name it. And one of the first things Dr. Simmons notices is that Ben definitely has something called obstructive sleep apnea. Basically, meaning one of his air passages is slightly blocked, which results in a lack of oxygen. And obviously, if you're not getting enough oxygen, can create big issues for healthy sleep pattern. And a lack of oxygen is tied to issues like sleepwalking. When people sleepwalk, they're usually in a specific stage of sleep called non-rem slow wave sleep. It's the deepest form, right? Now, after hooking Benjamin up, Dr. Simmons doesn't get to witness any sleepwalking episodes himself. But he notices something else. Benjamin falls into this deepest stage of sleep a lot faster than most people do. The average healthy person usually enters non-rem slow wave sleep about 30 to 40 minutes after they've fallen asleep. Ben typically entered it 11 minutes after falling asleep. And maybe because of this, because of how quickly he went into a deep sleep, Ben's brain activity was far more active than the average person's would be during this stage, because his brain didn't have enough time to fully, fully shut down. Basically, Dr. Simmons was finding evidence that Ben had not made up this sleepwalking alibi. He says there is definitely patterns in these sleep studies that are indicative of parasomnia. In fact, he's so sure of this that he formally signs off on it. He diagnoses Ben with this. And the heliates are hoping, okay, maybe this is enough to just drop the charges entirely. No, there's no way of prosecution. I don't think we'd do that, yeah. Prosecution was already building their own case against Benjamin. This case had kind of gone viral a little bit. And as we know, when there is virality behind a case, prosecutions have a little bit of fire underneath them to really close a case, just one plus one equals two. And according to the prosecution, they had seen a few signs that made them think this might have been an intentional murder after all. So this is what they say. There were a few red flags detectives noticed almost from the moment Benjamin placed that 911 call. They found it strange that initially on the 911 call, Ben was speaking in hushed tones. So when he calls, he's like, I've stabbed my sister, I've stabbed my sister. They don't understand why he hadn't even woken up his parents or was screaming or being loud, not even caring about waking up his parents until the operator was like, go wake your parents up. I don't know if that sticks out to me as a red flag. I agree with you. And just because you never know what you're going to do in an absolute insane situation. I also think like habits are habits. And if you're if you're not clearly thinking like at night, in the household, I grew up in I would have whispered people talk softer. They don't want to wake anybody up. Yeah, I wanted to wake anyone. Have you ever been a woken up from like a deep sleep? And then you're just like, holy yeah, what is going on right now? It's like it's like it's very medicated. It's very confusing. Yes. Not that I'm defending Kim. I'm just pointing out what I see as red flags and don't so don't see that as a red flag. In fact, his own father's like it wasn't even Ben's voice that woke us up. It was the operator's voice on speaker phone that woke us up. And so the prosecutions like this is because Ben was preventing his parents from witnessing his sister's death for as long as possible. They're like that he wanted her to bleed out. So he didn't want to wake his parents. He didn't want to like face reality. Maybe. Maybe. Okay. This is what the prosecution says. But it also doesn't help Ben's case that one of the lead prosecutors experiences sleepwalking herself. So she's going to come in and be like, well, I have slept walk. And this is not what I've never killed anyone, or example, especially because again, we just discovered parasomnias of very detailed. There are very different versions. It's just such a poor way to look at things in life. Like that's just not it's just not reality. It's also silly to think that your experience dictates another person's experience in anything, right? It's not reality. It's such a, that's just stupid take. It's human of us to try to relate. But it's just not going on. It's just not reality. I mean, it's no different than like two people being sick, or two people experiencing the same pain and one person being like that hurt so much. Well, I've experienced it and it didn't even hurt that much. It's like when people are like, oh, I got a tattoo on here. And it was the worst pain ever. And then someone's like, I got that tattoo and I didn't hurt. Okay, big guy. Calm down. It's like, I hate that. I hate people could try to compare like that. Now her name, this prosecutor's name is Megan Long. This is not her first sleepwalking case either. Oh, interesting. Okay. She successfully prosecuted a case back in 2019 after Guy Hick claimed he'd shot his wife during a sleepwalk. I mean, I get it. Look, I get that this is a very, it gets a good way to try to get away with killing somebody. 100% get that. Like, what if it's true, too, though? What if there's more than one person who has killed someone in their sleep? I know. I know. Because if it's like, if it's possible with one, it's possible with another. Yeah. So she found it odd that no one else in Benjamin's immediate family had a history of sleepwalking since from her experience. That's usually one. It's a big factor. Ants and uncles, she felt we're a little too far removed. But again, this prosecutor's not a doctor, which is why they hire their own expert psychologist named Dr. Mark Pressman to help them analyze the case. And from what he's seen, sleepwalkers really only become aggressive when someone physically tries to intervene. He basically explains aggression and sleepwalking is more reflex than like something you initiate. And there were no signs that Megan fought back, but there were signs that this attack might have been more thought out. If you remember, Ben had put but a pillow on his sister to stop her bleeding. - Yes, I thought that was weird. And you said that because I'm like to stop her bleeding. - But detectives are like, was that pillow there because he put it on top of her before stabbing her so she couldn't scream? - Good point, yeah. - When he stabbed her, and why do they think this? At the crime scene, there is no blood spatter on the walls or anywhere else in the room, which to them means the pillow was there when the stabbing happened and blocked blood from shooting outwards. - Oh, okay, that's a good point, yeah. - And speaking of the knife, they also found it suspicious that the stabbing happened only hours after Ben was given the murder weapon. If you recall, Michael gave it to Ben after he saw a similar one in a video game earlier that night. Ben took it to his room with him, put it on his nightstand, and then a few hours later stabbed his sister to death with it. - The reason I don't see that as a red flag because I actually think like maybe that video game induced some sort of crazy nightmare and, I mean, happens all the time, think about it. Like you work a lot all of a sudden or you're doing something a lot, you're watching movie, you almost always had dream or have a nightmare. - 100%, happens to me all the time. - I'm on the same page with you on this one. - So that part, not a red flag. - Prosecution is like, no, we think it's so crazy that he has a sleepwalking episode the same night he gets a night. - Oh my gosh. - This prosecution sucks, no offense. - Though I'd say the most damning piece of evidence against Ben that they use against him is probably his phone usage. And this is something that's gonna make you question everything up to this one. - Okay, let's hear it, yeah, yeah. - Ben had been awake and actively using his phone 20 minutes before the stabbing occurred. - Okay, yeah, that changes a lot. That changes a lot. - So he stopped using his phone at 417 AM and at 441 AM, he was on the phone with 911. - So question, and maybe you don't know this. What does actively using mean? Because Payton will fall asleep watching her phone and that phone will sit there for like three more hours. - I think it was probably going between apps is actively using. - But do we know that for sure? - No, we don't know it, but I think if it was just like, oh, a song was playing or a podcast was playing, that's what Garrett means, by the way, a fall asleep to podcast. - Like if you were watching a YouTube video and you fell asleep and you were watching get for like another hour. - I don't think that's considered actively using, but I guess it would be switching. - Yeah, it would be actively, you're actively watching. - It's a good point that was not brought up anywhere. I did not see that in any time. - I would be curious to ask one of them what actively using means because if you're watching a TikTok in your phone, you're actively using your phone. - I don't even think about that, but I didn't see that anywhere. - Put me in court. - Yeah, basically there's a 20 minute lapse in time. Now, if you remember, Dr. Simmons Tess, sleep study test, said it only took been 11 minutes to fall into that deep, slow, wave sleep where people sleep walk. So perhaps it is possible that he put his phone down, fell asleep, and then literally slept walked into his sister's room with enough time to kill her and call 911. Ultimately though, that was gonna be up to a jury because the prosecution was not gonna let Ben off the hook that easily. And the defense was not willing to accept the plea deal they were offering. They're like, you can plead guilty and get 30 years in prison. Instead, Ben was like, no, I'm innocent. He maintained that. He said it was forces beyond his control and he was gonna wait for his day in court. - Okay. - Finally that day arrived in February of 2025. - All right, let's hear. I need to know what the jury thought. - Now, this defense is so popular it hasn't made. What's known as the sleep walking defense or under its legal classification, automatism has only been successful a handful of times throughout history, but it is commonly used as a defense. And the prosecution does have a few decent pieces of evidence in this case. What they don't have, however, is emotive. There's nothing indicating that Ben had any issues with Megan. In fact, by all accounts, they were best friends. They adored each other. There is no digital evidence, no eyewitness accounts, nothing from friends or family. Nothing to support the fact that Ben might have wanted to kill his sister intentionally. So that's what the defense is really hanging its hat on. That and then the fact that Ben underwent sleep studies to show the prosecution's biggest piece of evidence doesn't exactly hold up. And that's the phone usage piece. They're gonna say no because of this sleep test we did. We know is it is totally possible that he fell asleep and went into sleep walking within those 20 minutes. So even if he was using his phone, it is fully possible that this, that his version of events still happened. And you also have to remember sleep walking, like typically is triggered by stress. Ben did mention he has his SATs coming up. It's his senior year of high school. Life's about to change. He's looking at colleges. He's gonna move away from his sister. That's not nothing for a teenage boy. And the defense also pointed to cases of sleep walking where people did things that felt natural to them. One study showed there was a chef who would sleep walk and literally cook in his sleep. Well, for Benjamin handling knives was something that came naturally to him. His family had a large collection of knives. Duh, his dad gave him one the night before. They went camping often. He also found that Ben scored much higher than most on a sleepiness scale. He often had a hard time waking up. He would have conversations with people he didn't remember when he was fully awake. So all of this, according to Dr. Simmons at trial, could have led to what he called the perfect storm. But the prosecution's start witness. Another doctor, Dr. Mark Pressman argues no, Ben's crime wasn't a parasomnia disorder. This was fully a choice. He mentioned that Ben would have had to unsheath the knife before using it. He's like, that's not natural. He just barely got this knife. That's a conscious decision. He said, it was also very strange for Bendery called details of the event the way he did. If he was actually sleep walking, if you remember, he did say he remembered the feeling of the knife piercing Megan's neck. He's like, that wouldn't be as tangible if he was sleep walking, but also stabbed twice. Maybe the second one is what woke him up. And so he really did physically remember that. And he only remembered one stabbing. - I just still think it's comical that two experts in their field can disagree with each other. - Right. - I mean, it happens so much now. And I think it's a little comical. - But I also want to point something out that I just, to me, is a little silly. This prosecution's star witness, this doctor, Dr. Pressman. Okay, who's going to get up and contradict the other doctor? Basically, he never spoke or worked with Ben directly. Ever. So he's going to get up and testify that Ben did not have a parosomnius sleeping disorder that was big enough to do this, that this was a conscious choice, but he never even spoke to Ben. He never even did studies on him. He never, anything. - Okay. - I'm like, how can you speak so confidently about a subject, right? Like Ben is the subject of this study that you didn't even like study yourself. - Yes, dumb. - It just feels a little weird to me. He came to all of these conclusions from afar, but that didn't keep the prosecution from building their theory. Ben did this intentionally. He used a pillow to muffle his sister's screams. He stabbed her not once, but twice. And when he realized he wasn't going to get away with it, he called 911. And then used a very smart alibi of sleepwalking. Now, the prosecutor, Megan Long, even said in her closing arguments, that Ben's parents had helped in reinforcing his alibi. And therefore, they had committed a cover up to protect their son. So she throws the parents under the bus as well. - Oh my gosh. Okay, I'm not going to lie. We're getting, I mean, I get it, but they're. - I don't get that. - It just feels like they're reaching at this point. - I just don't get that, because if you, I mean, this is what their son's telling them, they have a choice to believe their son or not. That's not committing a cover up. - Honestly, Loki, I feel like this prosecution is acting like a bunch of TikTokers on TikTok. Being like, no, well, they did this. They did this. Like, it just seems very immature and not professional to me. - Basically, the prosecutors like they already lost one child, they don't want to lose another. They know he's guilty, but they don't want to lose another child. - I just feel like I'm in like the TikTok comment section right now. Anyways, keep going. - She, even at one point, looks at the jury and says, quote, "I want you to look in this courtroom. There are so many people here for Benjamin and there is not one person here for Megan." Which is like, actually insane. - There's no way. - There's no way. - That is like, actually, to me. - There is no way. - What do you mean? Those are her parents. - That is. - They lost a daughter. - Who is? - You don't think they're not there for Megan? - I stand by what I said earlier about this prosecution's sucks. - And don't get me wrong. There have been cases where I'm like, ooh, these parents are kind of acting nasty. Like I understand loving your son, but they're protecting him a little too much. This is not that case. This is not Brian Laundrie's parents. Like, this does not feel like that to me. Anyways, there was an objection from the defense, but the judge was like, go ahead, continue. Just because it's rude. Doesn't mean you can't say it. She says, quote, "You have to be her hero, the jury, because no one's here for her." He knew exactly what he was doing. there has been no remorse shown here in this courtroom by him. Now, she wasn't wrong about that. Ben barely shed a tear during the trial. He was very like off. And this was something the jurors literally took into consideration as they left to deliberate. But I do want to note that oftentimes a defense team will just tell their client to just not show any emotion because no emotion is better than a motion that people can read into. So oftentimes they are directed to just like keep it down. Don't don't show anything. Don't bat an eye. So this is kind of hard because you might have been instructed to do so. And again, also crazy to look at the jury and be like, you need to save this girl when her parents are sitting right there. Okay, so what did the jury say? So they deliberate for five hours. Many of the jury said they knew someone or were sleepwalkers themselves. See, that's me. Like the reason I think I believe this case a little more is because like I've experienced that firsthand. Yes. Like I grew up sleepwalking. So after hearing four days of testimony, the jurors came back with a verdict. They found 21-year-old Benjamin Elliott guilty of first degree murder. Oh, man. That's not what I was expecting. But here we are. I will say it was still a good thing. He didn't take that deal. The judge went pretty easy on him. After the members of the jury were like, listen, we want him to have leniency. He's guilty of first-degree murder. Why would you say he's guilty of first-degree murder? Well, they said it was just more for the family than anything. They're like, they already lost one kid. They don't deserve another. I don't know. It sounds like some of the jury was like, I don't think he did it, but we're gonna say he did it. Yeah. I don't know. I mean, here's the thing. This one's got me a little confused. I think that it's hard. Okay, let me just put this out here. I have a definite bias against this case because I had seen all of this footage before really doing a deed. It seemed pretty believable. It may it tugged at my heartstrings. I felt bad for the parents. I thought that Ben's reaction was believable. It seemed like he was in pure shock. But then it was also frustrating because you're like, bro, like, how did you do this? But like, he also almost seems out. So he's injured. Like what was the? So they asked for leniency and Ben was given 15 years in prison and he'll be eligible for parole in August of 2032. That's when he's 20. Even if he was sleepwalking and that's real, I feel like a 10 to 15-year sentence is probably what he should get like 10 years for like manslaughter you're saying. Yes, it's to me. It's like manslaughter. Yeah, but if it's truly not his fault. Yes, I know. I agree. And so yeah, maybe he shouldn't get anything. I don't know. But it's different than like getting behind the wheel of a car. Like if you get behind the wheel of a car, you're knowingly getting into a death machine. How do you prove this? We all have to fall asleep. Like, it's just hard to because once someone doesn't get convicted because they were sleepwalking. And I think that's why it opens up this can of worms to everyone can be like, oh, I was sleepwalking. Which I think a jury is aware of. Like, it is very dangerous to believe someone's fault. Should they be in prison? Like they were sleeping. This is why I don't like this case. I'm not a fan. Because the day it really just comes down, do you believe him or not? Well, here's the thing, it just comes down to whoever the jury is. There was no blood splatter. The pillow. I mean, they had some arguments. Like, do I think it's possible to sleepwalk? Yes. I don't even think that's the question. No, I literally think the judge probably believes it was sleepwalking because he wouldn't have just given him 15 years. He would have said, hey, you're in prison for life. He did so at the jury being like, judge, please be lenient. But still, if you truly believed like that person killed someone first degree murder, he'd be like, sorry, dude, you're going to jail for life. Yeah, first degree. Here's the thing. Obviously people in there were like, oh, there's a chance. The question is, did he sleepwalking kill a sister or did he kill a sister? Yeah, I don't. And it's like, honestly, is there evidence for both kind of correct? I mean, them saying there's no blood splatter, which to us means this pillow was put here before the stabbing. That feels pre-meditated. But also, what if he really just did it that way in his sleep? The thing is, if there's evidence for both, then you he doesn't go to prison 100%. We've done we've had crazier cases where people should have gone to prison because they looked like they should have and they didn't get anything. Yeah, anyways. Okay, so he'll be eligible for parole at 28. But Ben's case is an unsettling one because if his claims are true, it forces us all to look at things in a different light. What is really going on in our minds when we sleep? Do we actually have control over our bodies? Or can they betray us in ways we never thought were possible? And if that's the case, what's stopping us from destroying the things in this world we are most connected to? Because I sleep next to you every single night. Something as precious, unique, and irreplaceable as our own flesh and blood can apparently be murdered if you're asleep. And that is the case of Megan Elliott. Crazy. I'm going to think on this one for a second because I do not know how I feel. I mean, I think it's just kind of safe to say this case is it's it's almost like public opinion. Like I don't you either believe him or you don't and like I said, there's maybe evidence to show both. So you can't really look at the prosecution and be like, well, you're 100% wrong. How do you 100% know? But then you also can't really look at the defense and be like, how do you 100% know? Because it's like, how do you? Yeah. I know. You just have to go with what, you know, I think for me, it was like this speed at which he called 911. Yeah. To me is a big one. Yeah, I agree. Because it feels like maybe he would have waited a little long before coming. Oh, for sure. I think for sure. I don't know. Anyways, that was our episode. Thank you all for listening. Please let us know your your thoughts on this over on our Instagram. And we will see you next time with another one. I love it. And I hate it. Goodbye.