The Truth About The College Finder - Dr. Steven R. Antonoff & Jay McCann

The Truth about College Mission Podcast is brought to you by Private College 529 Plan. Private College 529 is a prepaid tuition plan that locks in to date. These rates at hundreds of colleges nationwide including Duke, Stanford and Princeton. Because the plan is backed by its member colleges, prepaid tuition is guaranteed and protected from market risk. As educators you know the reality of college expenses, Private College 529 helps make college more affordable. Contributions grow tax deferred, qualified distributions are tax-free and account value keeps pace with tuition inflation. Help your families get ahead of rising college costs as a Private College 529.com. I am Brennan Barnard, one of your hosts. So I was not one of the hosts for this this episode. I am the director of college counseling at College Guidance Network and College Counseling Advisor for Making Karen Conan. And I am Rick Clark. I'm the Vice Provost for Enrollment Management at George's Attacking. Brennan as you said you know I had the opportunity to do this one solo but I'm glad that you had a chance to listen to it and we can talk a little bit more you know and get people ready to listen. We had yeah in fact and in fact I was just gonna say the reason I missed it I was interviewing I was hosting a webinar with Sal Khan and Ashley Pally our good friend and I'll actually we'll put the the link in the show notes kind of a tooper because there's it was the last in a series of webinars I've been doing with ConLab School and you know many of our friends and colleagues over the like 14 episodes and so I'll put a link in there for that so I was already missed this great conversation but really really appreciate listening to it. Yeah for sure well and yeah as you referenced I mean we did it at night and this is the week we recorded this in the week leading up to May 1st which is of course the deposit deadline so a lot of people you know work in nights and trying to squeeze everything in here as we as we head down the final stretch. I had the opportunity to speak with the co-authors of the book the college finder choosing the school that's right for you and as you'll hear them reference this is the fifth edition of that book so the the two gentlemen that you'll hear from in our conversation are Jay McCann who's the Associate Director of College Counseling at the Westminster schools here in Atlanta. Jay started his journey in college counseling at San Diego State University. He earned a Master of Counseling there and specializing specifically in school counseling. He also worked in the Office of Financial Aid at Point Loma Nazarene University in San Diego and then went on to Colorado where he was in both private and public schools so just a really great resource a really great guy someone that I've enjoyed getting to know here in Atlanta and then also Steve Anson off who has spent more than 35 years helping students and families navigate college admission worked with over 3500 students as an independent counselor and visited you know hundreds of campuses along the way. He is also the author of college match at Blueprint for choosing the best school for you and these two books are both go to resources for helping students build thoughtful college lists. Before he was in consulting he served as Dean of admission and Financial Aid University of Denver and he's just a major force in shaping the independent counseling profession and someone that you know many of us have a very very high regard for so great conversation and Brennan I know you did have a chance to listen back to it so I'm curious you know what might have stood out for you. Yeah it was a great conversation and I actually I was I wrote one of the testimonials for the book when they when they did it. What I would say about this episode is fast forward through the first two minutes where Rick Clark once again mocks me but no I you know I really appreciated the way that they talked about kind of this book and their efforts really meaning to just kind of expand and we talk a lot about this when we talk to different communities. Expand the kind of lens for what's out there. They talk about the list they have in the book and and wanting what in families to have a different vocabulary for the college search as they go to seek schools, see schools and things like that. And then also this idea of expanding the definition of return on investment and what that really means beyond that just the kind of financial piece and so again some great stuff in here. How about you Rick what stands out? Also agree I mean you know could have gone on for a while longer. I do love the book also I think it's as we say in the in the conversation it's very accessible. It's just easy to kind of pick up and flip through and I think it helps I think it helps students and families just think differently and that's actually the thing I wanted to highlight is this idea that I believe Steve talks a little bit about you know the the quality of institutions has continued to increase and the resources that schools have and the efforts that they're making to support students but the perception of that quality hasn't necessarily mirrored and correlated and in fact as you and I have kind of discussed I mean in some ways there's actually been an erosion of perception around either quality or value or all of these kind of things but I can tell you as someone that you know works day-to-day in an institution and and and constantly as you are is in touch with and seeing the great work that's happening around the country in terms of student success in terms of student support in terms of helping students you know find what's next for them and develop along the way during their college career I think Steve really nailed it you know when he when he commented on that yep absolutely well enjoy this conversation and I'll be back on the next episode well Stephen Jay thanks so much for joining me tonight and great to have you on the podcast be to be here yeah thank you absolutely and you know minus Brennan here I know he's sorry not to be able to join us but usually when he talks about his bio it takes half the podcast anyway so it's probably good so you know probably better this way anyway a little bit shorter we can get into the meat this faster so anyway I really appreciate you guys being with me and I guess want to start where we always start and you know Steve maybe we'll start with you and then go to Jay but love to just orient a little bit here on where you're from where you grew up where you went to college and then a little bit of like do's and don'ts for families listening you know parents or students like what did you do well or not do well that you think is take away from your own college admission experience that you would want people to hear sure I grew up in Denver went to the Denver public schools and during my senior year I spent a reasonable amount of time trying to identify good fit colleges and thought I had one but toward the the middle of my junior year my dad was diagnosed with a terminal illness and as a result I decided to stay in state and because my brother and sister had both gone to the University of Colorado I wanted to sort of set out my own path and so I decided to go to Colorado state and I had a great I had a great experience there academically and socially I was active and engaged it was a it was a great it was a great time what did I learn I I I should have transferred really okay I should have I should have transferred I I I really feel that going out of state would have would have increased my critical thinking skills I think I would have had more of an opportunity to meet a a very diverse a more diverse group of of students so so that's that's a regret and and so I guess a do or don't would be that that a student ought to think seriously about the place where they're going to grow the most and thrive and and be able to be an interesting person and and and and talk to folks that that sort of thing I and and I in my own case I think as I said going away would have would have given me a few more of those tools interesting now that's That's great. I mean, that's interesting to see. kind of reflect on and think about them actually going to Colorado State in August for a conference in Bindlefort Collins before and like you said beautiful beautiful area and great great place. It is and it's awesome. How about you Jay? Well I'm from the small town in Indiana and in North Central Indiana and I am the fourth out of five in my family. Okay. And so when it came to college there was a question of price and there was also my just going to say my mom didn't really want me to go super far away. So I was like trying to figure that out but if I remember my search a lot of what I was looking for was well my faith was important to me and looking for opportunities for ministry with a thing and so I ended up going to a Christian college in Indiana Taylor University and I felt like it was a good experience in the sense of like being able to be engaged in a lot of different areas and I got to study music a little bit further and do some different elements there. One of my search criteria was it couldn't go further north from where I lived because I just thought gosh Indiana is already bad enough weather and I just didn't realize that things could ever get better if you went north and you know now discovering like Michigan and some of the things that are in that like actually Michigan has some outdoorsy elements that are more than you'll find in Indiana and and I think my search process just started really late. I just I didn't have support structures I didn't have anyone telling me this to do it is just kind of like you know we've heard of this person going here and yeah just being from where I'm from a lot of people went to Purdue in Ball State and I didn't want a big school and so I didn't really have a whole lot of places that I knew where to search and so regrets not necessarily regrets as much as like I just didn't have as much exposure towards other ideas so. Well like you said a little bit there of a duor adult perhaps is just like you said like starting earlier and having that much opportunity to look around tailors and other ones that I've had some exposure to and you know great great spot as well but it's also interesting I mean you know how some students legitimately are so sort of open when it comes to the weather and then others have very very distinct opinions you know about what they do. But I always think I kind of justified my 17 year old self like I got seasonal affective disorder right like I got depressed very much a lot of bad dating decisions in the month of February like it very much was um that's great the weather is a factor and so I think you know paying attention to that so yeah man I'm married to someone who has strong weather opinions and so it's been very easy when I've talked about you know possible other jobs like it is very clear like you know the Pacific Northwest is not an option right. So good to know good to know. I think I've already picked up on a little of this just from your you guys in your personal experience but tell us a little bit about about the book about you know your partnership and and how the book it started you guys are on what version in addition now how many are you on. Yes this is the this is the fifth edition. Let me begin perhaps and you can tell a little bit about the impetus behind the book. Really I feel like there are three main purposes for college finder the first and perhaps the most important is to expand the group of colleges that students consider and and we felt like the best way to do that is to is to really focus on fit and to provide lots and lots of lists in a whole lot of different categories. The second the second reason is that really nothing of this sort existed there were a lot of college guidebooks but there weren't a lot there were there were no books of lists of colleges in various categories you know US news uses about what 15 or so variables to determine quality of college we have over 500 variables so we we feel like that's that's a positive and and and and I guess the third major reason that the book started was it was my feeling that we we didn't take advantage we being the the the the counseling profession didn't really take advantage of counselors and and counselors know how and and counselors insight into into colleges there there was nowhere there were there were no surveys that were that were similar to to this and and and so from the beginning and this is just expanded greatly over the over the years but the the the the expert choice lists which make up about a third of the lists in the book are are some of our favorites just a little bit more and then Jake can can can talk about his experience but I I do want to say that for the fifth edition we really wanted to expand the number of counselors we wanted to expand the number of categories and Jay was the perfect person Jay had expressed an interest we both were in Colorado for a while he expressed an interest in in in working with me on that on this project and that has has made the fifth edition not only the the the biggest but I I believe the the best in in in in the sense that it's the most thorough interesting that's great what else would you have there Jay? Well okay so when I started down this road I just wanted to college counseling very specifically because I was in a school but thinking no I just really want to hone in a lot more on what this role looks like in college counseling someone showed me the third edition book and said if you really want to know you got to know these schools and so I remember yeah night my early my wife and I got married and and I would quit it she I'd have her quiz me like you know we're using this book like all right we're doing biology schools you know all right all right how many can I hit and you know and she was a patient with me and so then I was more less a fanboy when I met Steve when you know it came around and I was working at a school about two miles away from him and starting to help out with the fourth edition and so I I think I've just been so grateful for what Steve has done for this profession and and thought those just really cool a unique way of engaging in this conversation absolutely no like you said it's I think that's what's great about it is it's a book that you can but I Jay we talked about this I have a son that's a junior you know and I mean the fact that you have and I should say I mean what just is it 1200 different ways of categorizing I mean you know it's sort of something for everybody and I mean that's true of course of ultimately where students land there's so many great options out there but just the way different people think I mean I like it set up in that very usable way where people can kind of flip through and see what resonates with them and you know perhaps even hopefully as they you know go through the experience what grabs them might change and that's kind of perfect and I think you guys make it so accessible in that regard I love that but I mean like just to give people a sense of this that may not have picked up a copy yet I mean obviously you got some major ways here but some things that might surprise people so yes of course majors like you just said about you know biology as an example but even just kind of vibe right affordability as an option personality I mean so many ways that you guys kind of break these things down and I think make it really again very accessible and you know friendly to students so I guess my question is especially thinking about juniors and people supporting juniors how do they recognize these when they are on campus right and maximize their time and investment before during and after the visit so if they've kind of picked up on a school or two and now maybe this summer they're going out to visit how do they sort of say yeah all right that's tracking with the vibe that I'm looking for or you know some of my personality I mean how do you recognize it in a school once you're on campus and really going through that visit experience I guess the the the the answer to that very good question is that that that what the book is intended to do is provide kind of a new vocabulary to students so students may not have thought of about community, for example, as a quality of college. They may not have thought about all the glue that binds the college, that binds student life. Is the glue athletics, is it beer, is it academic dialogue? So part of the, our thinking here is to provide so many lists so that students who begin to visit can think about some of these things, can think about how important it is to have a city that is not super expensive. How important it is to think about how important student research might be for you. So I feel like the student who goes through the book prior to visiting is more likely to be able to ask questions that really matter. They may not have thought about the differences in the amount of research that an undergraduate is able to do on a campus. So looking at the categories might provide some of those factors that are important and just one other thing about visiting, I think it's so important that students go with a plan to visit. In other words, they should research colleges as much as they can before they visit a campus. They ought to make a list of those things that are important. Is it career advising? Is it research? Is it the quality of the workout facilities, whatever it is? And then go to a college and not just assess whether it's at good college, but rather assess whether it has accessible teachers, if that's what you want, whether it has the price tag that your family can afford, whether it has the calendar that works best for your style of learning. Those are some initial thoughts, but I'm sure they can add to that. Well, the one thing I was thinking about is, I love all those answers that you said, but when I think about the summer, it's sometimes as a bit restrictive towards what the full experience could be when the school is rural or when the school is small. And if it's a combo, it tends to be really hard to come away and say, oh, this is exactly what the community is for me, when there's nobody there, right? And I think timing matters a lot. It's always good to be able to pick up a school newspaper and get a sense of what's happening there, stopping in the office that you are most interested in that major and hearing from them about what that could be for you opportunities they would have, how they set up their curriculum, is it more math focused? Is it, you know, do you have to have it for language or a health class? Those things can help to get a sense of what's going on on the campus, but when you think about who you want to be around, what's happening on a Tuesday night and a Thursday night and then Saturday night, those aren't always answered by going in the summer in those locations, but if I drop myself in NYU, I can get a sense what NYU is gonna be like anytime a year. So because you know that the city is what unites that campus in a lot of ways, like what people are drawn towards about it, but it's harder for me to think about Washington and Lee in the summer being a place that stands out for community even though it does, you know? It does have those distinctive elements of who they are and how they build community, but it just, it's hard to fully get all of that bottled up. And so I think in addition to a visit, it's great if you can reach out to your counselor and ask, is anyone else ever been there? Can I talk to some students that are there? And that allows you to hear more of the student perspective. I also think there's a lot more YouTube videos these days hearing hot takes from students, some are more helpful than others. And, but you can wait through a little bit more of that than you might have been able to five or 10 years ago. - Interesting, man, that you bring that up about a smaller school and rural. Literally this last weekend are way back from my wife and I had like an anniversary trip and we were coming back and there's a school that we wanted to swing by and you know, check out just for our son, just something to keep in mind. And we're like, yeah, we definitely should not have him come here in the summer because it's not gonna be a good, an accurate or a good look. And you know, I think that was really clear to us is that we need to make sure to make an effort to get him back there in the fall. And I think, you know, it'll be a lot more accurate as to what's this like and how this might resonate. So one of the things I knew all of us in Brennan would certainly jump in on this too if you were here is this idea of like, you know, and you guys talked about already, this were fit. And you know, I talked a lot about, you guys talked about, you know, good schools and also got at this idea of like many, many good schools, but is it a good school for you? And I think that's what all your lists and the questions that you're asking students to ask themselves and ultimately colleges, that's what you're trying to get at. Is this a good school for me? But you know, oftentimes I think families, sometimes students, sometimes parents default a little to prestige and name brand. And I'm just kind of curious like, why do you think that is? But then also like, where have you seen it maybe go well where you've seen a student or talked to a family where they said, you know what? No, we have figured out that regardless of the schools, you know, big name or prestige or whatever it might be, like we have the confidence, this is the right place where making this choice intentionally. Jay, you want to maybe take a track or Steve, do you want to start? - Well, yeah, I work at a unique school and it is a high achieving student body, right? And as a result, right? Yeah, Rick knows my school well. Is that it is, there's, for, there's a kind of a hidden list, right? When I first showed up, there were certain colleges I couldn't put on kids' list 'cause it was, it was seen as an insult or whatever it might be. And last year was the first time I had her had a student and family in parents. And when I started talking about fit, they interrupted me and said, no, no, we don't care about fit. This kid will be fine wherever he goes. - Okay. - And I would say that has been a really poor process for the student because they did not engage with thinking about what it looks like for them and the amount of stress and mental health considerations are there because it was all about missions. It wasn't about a four year experience. And I think that's what I see a bit more in my community where students are not considering what a four year experience is, they're only looking at a bumper sticker and saying, this one's gonna be the best t-shirt I wanna wear. And I had, you know, I can think of plenty of students where like they go by prestige and it isn't a great thing and they, there's a school in New England where a student wanted to go early decision 'cause they knew they had to go early decision, right? And that amount of pressure that they're putting on themselves or even their peers are that you need to make sure you use your ED card as it might be expressed. And got into the school goes there and is like, no one's happy, no one has fun, no one sees any, you know, I don't wanna give away the school because it's not about the school, but I wanna say like, they felt like there wasn't enough engagement, there wasn't enough like opportunities to see what the gel of that community was. And therefore it's been like it's just about achievement and it's transactional and that's not what they were looking for. So that's what things that I wanna continue to pay attention to when it comes to fit. And now on the opposite side of that, I mean, fit sometimes doesn't preclude highly selective schools. And I think highly selective schools would like to say, we offer something really good for the right kid, but it's just not every single student, right? And I have a student went to a very highly selective school that's very much known for STEM, but he was published for history, right? And had done a lot of that, but also is very involved in math, Olympiad and a lot of those different elements and found himself in computer sciences now teaching classes, but even now hearing from the parent, there's a different element about what fit looks like and they're continuing to reconsider what that looks like, even among highly selective institutions. - That's good. - Just add a little bit, you know, there are students, particularly first generation students and students that are not as savvy about this whole process, who need to be encouraged toward quality, Now, let's go. necessarily prestige, but they need to be encouraged. And over the years, I have found myself doing just that, encouraging students. You know, it's, it's, you know, your local, your local state university might be great, and your local state engineering school might be great. But maybe it's time to look beyond. And I think I think that's, I think that's important. I also think that one of the issues with prestige is that the quality of colleges, at least I feel from doing a lot of visits every year. I feel like the quality of colleges in the US has increased dramatically. And yet the perception of quality has remained about the same. And that's so sad. So, so I, I think one of our jobs is counselors and, and, and, and as we're trying to encourage good solid college shopping is, is to, is to be sure that, that, that, that we can make the best case possible for a whole range of, of schools. And the last thing is just a follow up to what Jay said about, about mental health. You know, I was looking the other day for another purpose. There, there's about 20,000 spaces for freshmen at Ivy League colleges. And there's about 1.5 million or something students applying. So that's 1% chance for getting about the four or five percent at, at, at, at different schools. So, so, so what, what you're doing is, is if you're only looking at those, you're setting yourself up for a lot of tears and a lot of agony during the college planning months. Gosh, there's so many good schools. Let's try to make it fun if we can. Let's try to, let's try to look at it in, in, in, in the most positive way. And, and not in this, in the sense that if I don't get into these five, I'm a complete failure. My life is over, et cetera, et cetera, because the truth is, the situation is extremely competitive and students aren't going to get in to, to, to, to those schools. Yeah. I mean, you know, again, I know this is what I think you guys do a good job of is, you know, showing the landscape, right? And, and telling a bigger story. And I think that's what I love about, you know, the college finder is all the different lists, all the different schools. And I know many of us are out there kind of beating this drum regularly, um, to, to say, you know, if you have an open mind, uh, and really think about who you are, the, you know, the likelihood actually of you applying to only highly selective schools goes way down. The more honest you are about who you are and what you're looking for, the less likely you are, you're going to apply to a really like limited, uh, selectivity set because those schools are actually aren't all that similar sometimes to one another. I mean, you know, and, and there's a lot others out there that are kind of better fits in that regard. So, I think, yeah, I really do appreciate what you guys have, you know, put together. Um, just one other, one of the, uh, Rick, if I could, um, you know, prestige is, um, simplifies. It's, it's seductive because it simplifies the process. You know, I'm not going to look at all these schools because I, I'm just going to, I'm just going to hone in. You know, that's, that's, that's very seductive. And, and families are anxious and, you know, rankings off, uh, offer a false sense of, of certainty. Um, so, so for all of those reasons, um, it, you know, a good student ought to look at good colleges. The problem is that, that, that, that, that there's just a limited number of colleges that some families consider good. Well, this is where, I mean, look, everybody loves a good list, right? I mean, and to your point of like simplifying things, I mean, I think that's where you guys have tapped into something is, okay, like you love lists, you want to, you want to simplify it? We got lists for you. I mean, you know, just, just think bigger than the list that are often most spoon fed and most obvious, right? And, you know, I always tell students to, like, um, before you buy into anyone number, like question that number, I mean, where did that come from? What's the methodology behind the ranking, et cetera? So I think the fact that you guys, you just blow that up almost by overwhelming people with so many different ways to look at it. And that, I think, is healthy because it can, it can, it's simple. And yet it's a, it's a, it's a different strategy for helping people zoom out and see a bigger picture. Which I, I really appreciate that. Um, you referenced it. Or go ahead, Jay. We just, we tried to, and a lot of times we did include some of the factors that were considered on what US News might care about or Forbes might care about, but that we gave us own lists, right? We didn't say we, we compiled the 14 qualities. And therefore, we only need to care about this one list. We kind of, um, we, yeah, we gave you far more than, um, and then you can decide how much does graduation rate, the one factor I should consider by. Exactly. Well, and that's, I mean, I think that's another piece that I really like about it. See, it's like, okay, well, maybe you do subscribe to this piece of a ranking or that piece of it. But like, how much does it really matter to you and giving that ownership back over? We talked about this earlier, but I do want to kind of revisit it real quick. Um, because I don't know, I mean, we do this a little bit in our book, um, but really not many out there that, you know, go right to some of the real experts and that are, you know, school counselors. And you guys, um, lift up the, the voices and expertise of so many, um, school counselors, you know, uh, which I think is, is great. I guess what I'm wondering is right now for maybe a counselor listening, like, where do you think that counselors, um, add the most value in helping students as they are formulating their lists? Um, and then, you know, I guess what would be, um, where one of the places where maybe you think in least in your experience, like counselors should kind of perhaps at times even limit students a little bit here and maybe want to kind of think about how can they, um, you know, help students as they're, you know, hooting in on what matters to them, et cetera. So quick thoughts on that. Um, let me, let me start and I'm eager to hear from Jay. Um, you know, counselors are taking the college search process seriously. And that's, and they give time to it. And that is so important of a message for students. This is an important part of, of, of our curriculum and, and our, our work. Um, uh, you know, um, just the time that a counselor takes is, is, is great. And I think a counselor these days, um, is also talking about the value of higher education, particularly at a time when, when there's a lot of skeptics and a lot of question about whether higher education is worthwhile. I also think that, that, that, that counselors can, can, can push the envelope, can open the door, um, can, can say, you know, um, have you considered this trade off? You know, you want a large school and you want a lower cost, which is, which is more important. Um, is, is, is, is the pre-med program more or less important than general advising in general, um, uh, guidance. Um, so, so I, I feel like, um, counselors are able to present those trade-offs. Um, and, and, and, and, and, and that's not, and, that's not a, a, a place where, those trade-offs are not discussed elsewhere. They, may not be posed by the, by the family. Um, as far as, as, as, as, as, as, as things that, that, that, that, that, that, that, all of us counselors, privateer or, or public can, can, can, can do better. Um, you know, I, I, I, I think that it's, it's easy to close the door too quickly for a student. If a student comes in and says, you know, I, I want to go to the large state university and I want to study pre-med, it's, it's, it's relatively easy, particularly if you have a large case load and so, that's pretty easy to, okay, uh, here are your options instead of, uh, it pushing a little bit. Let's talk about whether a large school is best for you academically and is a large school best for you socially. Um, how, how does that, how does that fit and, and you're interested in pre-med, what else are you interested in? Are you going to put all of your effort into, finding a pre-med program, how certain are you of this? What are your backup plans? So I think that the counselor who is able to spend enough time to push the envelope a little bit can be most effective. - Great. I wanna clarify about the book and when we used the experts' choice, we really did feel like we were getting experts on this because looking at who is involved in it, talking to those in IECA, which is over independent educational consultants as well as access, which is for college counselors at independent schools. And that made up a large chunk. And when you saw that, there was, I think on average most students, or most of the counselors filling out a survey where had nine years or more of doing this type of work. And so I said it because I was also trained as a school counselor and worked in a setting where we were trying to figure out how do we get this kid to graduate, right? And those are two different job descriptions. And I think that they're both incredibly important. And how do we think about closing achievement gaps and how do we set people up for getting out into the world and then there's the hard challenge of that school counselors is how do we do large caseloads and some of that work that makes it really hard to get to a question of what does fit look like for this one individual. And so I just, what I admire about the people that filled out these surveys, the amount of expertise that they had really stood out, right? Like they were answering really hard questions that we asked them about schools that you think are great for racial integration, right? Like that's not an easy one. But one of the maybe the challenges of a lot of times college counselors is that we get in the ruts of schools that we know, right? When you have certain communities or students that are being sent to certain schools, I think sometimes you can stick to, okay, this is the in-state list of schools. And when you're mainly studying students and say, "Publics, it's hard when a student's trying to think of something else." And I lots of times when I hear feedback from adults that didn't love their counseling experience, it is feeling like they were too pigeonfold into what that looks like instead of helping them expand a see further. And so I love the field and I love when counselors are able to do that to open it up towards, there's a lot more out there and a lot more breadth. And that's I think again, kind of fits the ethos of what we want to do with the book. - Yeah, for sure. I get that definitely appreciated. I think that's a great resource. Here's the one I want to close on is, right now this whole concept around affordability, return on investment, cost of college, overall this is huge, of course, in the disliked guys in general and the overall conversation in our country. I think I know I'm sitting in tons of meetings. You know, at Georgia Tech talking through, are we delivering on this? How are we delivering on this? How are we talking about our return on investment, that kind of thing? I guess what I'm wondering about is, and especially thinking about maybe possibly seniors making decisions here, but more so, I'd say, underclassmen that are really getting started and their parents too. When you look around your research, when you think about all the surveys you've reviewed and all the students and parents that you've worked with and spoken with, what do you feel like in this conversation, people are missing a little bit. I mean, again, this is one that can easily get drilled down sometimes to lists or to just straight numbers that people can kind of look at. And sometimes those numbers can be a little misleading. And so, what would you say to folks as they are thinking about cost, return on investment, what they can afford, what they're willing to pay, and that whole conversation, what advice do you have for these folks listening? - I think maybe there's two things you're talking about, is affordability and then this return on investment. And one of the things that I see a common misconception from students is that the sticker price is what you expect to pay. And when Nekubo don't quiz me on what that stands for, the people that make up this. - Yeah, exactly, of the colleges. When they are saying that the average price ag for a student at a private school is 58% reduction of tuition, that's over half tuition discounts. So how we're thinking about the possibilities of what affordable could be, it seems limiting when we just look at, oh my gosh, there's our colleges, I call six figures. And so it doesn't allow us to look at the family profile, first of all, which is what is your SAI, what are the elements that would make you considered for need-based aid, I think is often misunderstood. But then also continuing for students to stay in the game with their student profile of saying, hey, you might be one of the top 10% of students in this applicant pool, did you know they're really gonna go after you, right? And that potential there in making things really affordable for them. And so I think that's on the front end of them, just not even starting a search that would include schools that have a starter price that's higher. But then on the backside, we always think about the outcomes and the return on the best. And I think there's a lot of elements there. And it's really interesting with AI, I'm sure you're hearing this and know way more about the conversation as well, about how perceptions about will-of-or-arts colleges are, or women's colleges or HBCUs. And some of these schools that I think about five years ago were seen in a more negative light, but were seeing these outcomes of really well, strong writers and being able to communicate really well, these concepts that maybe not have seen the outcomes in the same way before are now coming back around in a different way. And in defensive HBCUs as well, this is another one. Like when we think about fit in what they have been in the marketplace, ROI does not always tell this right story for them because they're the top producers of black dentists in the country, or they're the ones that are doing so much for a community that's been underrepresented historically. And I think that when we just look at numbers, we miss a lot about what's happening there. - And to add to what Jay said, it seems to me that families oftentimes define return on investment too narrowly. They may define it as the ability to get a job or graduate school. But return on investment and the value of college is places where you're gonna learn more about yourself, where you're gonna learn more about other people, where you're gonna learn more about the world. All of those things are part of what you're paying for and a part of return on investment. So I would hope that parents and students who are college shopping now consider all of those things as well as of course the possibility of getting a job or getting into a good graduate school. - Yeah, absolutely. Well, I think that's right. The whole idea, and I think once the themes we've sort of hit on here tonight, it's just this idea of nuance. And this is why I love that you just put so many lists out there for people to think about it. It just kind of breaks up a singular track thinking. And that can be applied to so many different things of the college admission experience and cost is one of those because again, this is why I think good advice to students and families is question every number. This is the sticker price. Is that really what you'll pay? Start digging and asking questions. This is what they say the starting salary is, well, is that for everybody? Is that for certain majors? Like let me ask more questions. I mean, faculty student ratio. Any of these kind of things, like let's dig deeper. And so I really, I think it's cool that you guys have sort of like thought numbers with numbers a little bit. (laughing) And I think that's super helpful. So, you know, it's a great book. I hope a lot people pick it up and check it out and our treats. Here's how we like to close every episode. And Steve, I'm gonna let you go first here. But we wanted you to think about just one word. Now you can explain why this is your word. But one word that you would have for students or parents in the College of Mission Experience and then why would that be the word? The word that comes to mind immediately is interesting. Okay. I think that students who are interesting are more likely to be admitted. Okay. I think students that can talk about different things who have many interests. So a word that is important. to me as I think about college counseling and college planning is interesting and encouraging students to do all that they can to expand their interests and be able to converse. We sometimes have lost sight of the importance of conversation in our world as we are deep into our screens. But I think in the admissions process being a person is important. Yeah, I love that. That's a new one. I'm not hurting anybody. Sight that one, but it's great. It kind of makes me think a little bit about telling your story. Figuring out how to tell your story either on an application. One of the hopes that I really have in the future is that we'll break up this somewhat antiquated formulaic way that we've allowed students to present themselves. And I do wonder if AI is going to actually force that a little bit more and give students an opportunity to converse. Maybe that will even be with some AI interviews who know this, but multiple mediums for expressing themselves. I love that. How about you, Jay? The word that I think of when I talk to underclassmen that are asking me all the time what should I do in the summer is momentum. And they'll ask, should I do this? This, you know, should I do this, camside? And I ask them to consider what momentum looks like for them. And a lot of times we think about what if you had 10 weeks uninterrupted to do anything you want, what would that look like? Congrats. You have a summer. And I think that's the same way that would be great to approach this summer, to not only the summer process, but your college process as well, is where are the things that you're starting to lean in more and find a little bit more speed for yourself. And I think that's where we want students naturally to be able to show up and what their values are and how they express themselves to come forward. But it does help to make them just at least realize, like, if I don't have to cure cancer this summer, right? Or I don't have to be the student body president in order to go to college. It's better for you to slow down and say, okay, where's my momentum taking me of things that are best expressing myself? I might be an introvert and would hate that amount of attention. So where are the places that I find that that best expression of myself where I find a little more, what's the term that people say when they get in their flow state, right? Like, where do you find a little bit more of that? And I think there's also a great place for that to be seen even in community, right? Where is the momentum taking you in terms of people that you would find more interesting to play off as to you? Because it's great for us to know our own community, but it's even so much better if we know another community, right? And where is it that you could be? I've seen a lot more colleges this past year have asked, like, where's a place that you've had a conflict with someone or different way of viewing something that's reshaped your view on and perspective and worldview. I think that's a great question as well, because how are we continuing to stay engaged as a civic engagement element of who we are and what college is trying to be? Yeah, awesome. Well, guys, you know, it's exciting about the conversation. It certainly did not disappoint. Thank you both for being with us. Thank you, Rick. Thank you very much, Rick. And let me say that you have done more to humanize college admissions, I think, than anyone else in the country. So it's an honor for us to to be, I'm sorry that Brandon couldn't be here, but I'm pleased that we've had a chance to talk and really appreciate what you've done to make the process more human and more real. Well, thanks so much. I really appreciate that, especially coming from you. But yeah, thanks guys. Thanks so much. We appreciate it and wish you all the best in the year ahead. Thanks again for listening to the conversations today with Steve and Jay. Really enjoyed that conversation and hope you did as well. We do hope that you'll take a look at the college finder. I mean, it's a unique resource and something I think that can be a great tool for students, for parents and for counselors as well. And we will look forward to joining you again soon on the next episode. Have a great week. you [BLANK_AUDIO] [BLANK_AUDIO] [BLANK_AUDIO]