The Truth About Social Media: How It Affects Kids' Mental Health

The following podcast is a deer media production. Welcome to Raising Good Humans. I'm Dr. Lisa Pressman and today's episode is with Imran Ahmed. Imran is the chief executive officer and CEO of the Center for Countering Digital Hate. He's really an authority on social and psychological malignancies on social media, such as identity-based hate, extremism, disinformation, and conspiracy theories. The work that he's doing is with the goal of systemic changes to the social media landscape, including ensuring that social media products are safe for the public prior to launch, transparency around platform algorithms, rule enforcement, and advertising, accountability, and responsibility. But today, I wanted to have a conversation with him just because until these changes are made in the system. Parents really only have themselves to lean on, and I want to make sure that we are emboldened and empowered with information to support our kids. So I will say in my book, the five principles of parenting, there is a section on social media and technology, and it's really important to keep in mind that we do have limits and rules that we can set in the context of our close relationships to make sure that in the absence of better systems in place, our kids aren't in danger. But you need to know kind of the realities of what's going on, and the landscape changes so much that when we think we know something about social media, new things crop up. So that's what this conversation is, but I do want to suggest that you either grab my book, you can look at Substack, Dr. Lisa Pressman's at substack.com, that's a free newsletter. There's also in the back of my book, in the appendix, a sample social media contract that if you find useful, go for it. There's so much content on the website that I'm going to put in the show notes for the center for countering digital hate, and there's a free parent guide. So all is not hopeless, but we do need the information so that we don't just sound like, you know, we're setting alarms with our kids, and we don't really understand, and we don't want to put them in a harm's way. So let's take this seriously, but not feel helpless. And if you enjoy this episode, I know enjoys a wonky word when it's a topic like this, but it's important, let me know. And of course, you can DM me on Instagram @RaisingGoodHumansPodcast. You can give a five-star reading, write a little review, and always send in your questions so that I can keep bringing you information that's reliable, and valid, and important to take into account as we're making all these decisions for our kids. So the Center for Counter-Edictal Hate Studies, a whole range of ways in which social media can be harmful to us, you know, all the way from making it easy to spread hate, to destabilizing the understanding of the science, climate change, or a vaccine. But in this instance, what we really wanted to understand was what's the impact on kids' mental health, and in particular, we kept hearing from parents that they were seeing images on their kids' phones that were disturbing. And what really, really tipped us over the edge and made us start studying this in earnest was I met with a guy called Ian Russell, whose daughter Molly was a 14-year-old girl who took her own life. And he pushed for a British coroner to investigate what had gone wrong. And the coroner asked me to in Pinterest, "Can we see what you were sending online?" When the investigator saw what she'd seen, they said that there was such a deluge, such an overwhelming amount of self-humptent, that it would have normalized in her mind the idea that if you hurt inside, you hurt yourself outside. And if you really hurt inside, you take your own life. And she did, and he's become a really big campaigner. He's on the board of CCVH, and he urged us to look up the way that eating the sort of content proliferates on modern platforms, and in particular, we looked at TikTok. So to experiment with this, what we did is we set up accounts in four different countries, the US, the UK, Canada, and Australia. So from all over the world, but what was the same for us all of them is we set them up as 13-year-old girls. So we told TikTok, "I'm a 13-year-old girl, and this is my account." And then we just recorded, quietly, what the first half hour of content was on there for you paid. And what we found was that within 2.7 minutes of setting up an account, those accounts were being served self-humptent, encouraging self-humptent, things like a razor blade appearing on the screen with the words I missed the touch of you on my skin. Or it was within 8 minutes we were getting eating the sort of content. And that's what's called pro-anacontent. So pro-anorexia, there's a subculture of people online who spread this kind of content, but it was being served algorithmic. So it wasn't because people were looking for it. So within 8 minutes of an account being said, "Hey, would you be interested in this? Every 39 seconds on average." Now we recorded all of this, we have the videos, so TikTok can't refute what we're saying. But here's what's really disturbing. We set up half the accounts with names like Suzy. We set up half the accounts with names like Suzy lose weight. And that's because there's research showing that when kids do have these sorts of issues or mental health problems in general, they tend to put them in their bios or in their username. So we wanted to have an indication of vulnerability in that username. At those accounts, they received 12 times more self-hump and you know, that's what really brought it home to me is that the algorithms that these technologists have written, look, if you or I or anyone listening met a 13-year-old girl who said that she felt she was too fat and that she wanted to know how to go on a 700-calorie a day diet, we would go warning, "I've got to be really cautious when I'm dealing with this child, child." And they are vulnerable, and they need special care. The algorithm says, "I've got a way of hooking this child, and it delivers the content that we'll do that." And that is just so disturbing. It's so important for people to understand that the kids who are most vulnerable are targeted in such an amplified way that it increases risk so exponentially. Your research, you can't refute that, you just have to look at that and say, "What can we do about this?" Well, let's talk about what you are doing about this, but also from a realistic perspective, what you've seen families do about this in the absence of real, you know, movement forward with the apps. But don't forget, this isn't just targeting young girls, it's targeting young boys too, with misogynist content and content encouraging them to take illegal steroids and peptides and sand, which can be real damaged in the body in order to achieve a Captain America physique, telling them that a real man is one who is physically enormous, like, you know, Captain America and the Marvel movies, and that the way to achieve that body is by taking steroids and then telling them how to hide them from your parents. And of course, these influences producing this bun-ten on TikTok, I use influences with, you know, with such in-person comments because, of course, they aren't really influenced as their predators, we're taking advantage of young children. And then in their bios, they've got, they've got web stores where you can buy those steroids and have them shipped to your house in brown, in brown and bullets, no one knows what they are. So it's not just young girls who are being targeted. I think what's really crucial for parents to understand is yes, vulnerability is targeted, but it doesn't matter if they're vulnerable or not. If the platform thinks that they're a 13-year-old child, they'll feed them this content. -So either way. -Yeah. This podcast is sponsored in part by active skin repair, which is a 1% for the planet member, because they believe personal health and the health of the environment are connected. So they donate 1% of sales to grassroots environmental initiatives to protect and restore our natural world. Plus, active skin repair is all natural and non-toxic. Its topical solutions are formulated to help repair and heal damaged skin. Active skin repair can be used to treat a wide range of skin issues, including just cuts and scrapes and little burns, sunburns, rashes, and other types of skin damage. And it's suitable for all skin types, including sensitive skin. And the best part is that through its 1% for the planet giving partnerships, active skin repair protects and conserves wild lands through the conservation alliance and regenerates marine ecosystems through sea trees. Active skin repairs also certified climate and plastic neutral through 1% giving partners. I love supporting businesses that are here for both us and our planet. Visit www.activeskinrepair.com to learn more about active skin repair and their commitment to 1% for the planet and use the code humans to save 20% off on all active skin repair products. Once again, that's www.activeskinrepair.com. Code humans to save 20% off. Spring is here and I'm gonna tell you I didn't exactly learn how to become an amazing chef, which was part of my New Year's plan. But Spring is here and Caraway's non-toxic cookware is still what I use for my very mediocre cooking and it's a perfect way to kick off Spring cleaning because they have such great organizing systems. Caraway's internet famous kitchenware is a staple for any home. It comes in fantastic modern shades to fit with any design aesthetic. I have a gray and white kitchen so I've got gray and white caraway. You can ditch the chemicals with caraway. Caraway homes non-toxic kitchenware features a chemical-free ceramic coating. So food can be prepared with peace of mind. No hard to pronounce chemicals will leach into your healthy ingredients and all sets come equipped with complimentary easy access storage solutions to keep your kitchen tidy and make Spring cleaning feel so organized. Visit carawayhome.com/humans to take advantage of this limited time offer for 10% off your next purchase. This deal is exclusive for our listeners. So visit carawayhome.com/humans or use the code humans and check out caraway non-toxic cookware made modern. So Imran can you tell us what parents can do give in this and also can you talk about the algorithm in multiple platforms because for example there are certain apps like TikTok where I think a lot of parents have a sense that it's really not good. It has some really bad stuff. But then there are other apps like Pinterest where for my generation Pinterest is like figuring out which light bulbs you're going to buy and design wears. And so it seems quite innocent and something that you absolutely could be allowing your kids to use without even thinking they're participating in something harmful. Yeah and it's such a good point you make because it's not just about TikTok. TikTok right now has a lot of attention in part because it's owned by a Chinese company in part because there's some focus on it because of its role the role that it's playing in brain antisemitism. But the truth is that all platforms have got really serious harms that they can force to kids. You know Instagram is another as you mentioned YouTube is the single most popular platform with young people and that can have that hosts a ton of harmful content, Pinterest and others. And that's why it's really important to have conversations with kids that are ongoing and permanent because you don't want your kids to be to be evasive with you. You don't want them to be hiding their behavior and you need to take all the shame out of it. It's very very clear that the algorithms they do what they want to do. They don't give your kids what they already want. They give your kids what they want them to want. And you know if we can see that on one platform within two and a half minutes without any intervention they're sending self harm content that's not something any child asks for something sent to them. It's about having shame free conversations in which we're asking kids to tell us what they're what they're seeing. You know it's a symmetrical conversation they're teaching us about what they're seeing online but what the latest platforms are doing. And we're helping them to understand the context for it. And to also understand is this normal? Is it abnormal? Is it dangerous? Is it not dangerous? Should kids be cognizant of other sort of mitigating factors when they're consuming this kind of content? So we're able to contextualize the information and learning that they're getting from these platforms. Realistically it's near impossible to stop kids from accessing platforms ever. And realistically as well most kids at most parents will have this ongoing conversation with their kids. Can I have a phone? Can I have a phone? Can I have a phone? And it's about yes you may have a phone but here's the deal. You're going to tell me what you see. I'm going to I'm going to be able to give you some some feedback some encouragement some understanding that you can use that in a healthy way. You know it's interesting because I think for a lot of these apps and I'm curious what you think of this trend but I I would say that in the last decade Instagram had a certain age and Snapchat had a certain age at which you could join and so parents might say well I'll wait until that age but you can have these other apps that don't seem to have those ages and so we don't seem to understand that first of all it's not really about age because it doesn't mean that the kids are ready once they've hit a particular age and it also doesn't mean that if there was no age limit that kids should have access but more importantly what I think you speak so well to is how unfamiliar we are with how these apps are used by younger people and how to keep up with them. Can you give us a little kind of summary of what trends you're seeing? Yeah I mean look we know that each platform is different in different ways and so like you know TikTok isn't really a so it's not a social media platform it's really a delivery platform for short-form videos and so the experience on on on TikTok is to experience a timeline that's constructed for you by TikTok's algorithm but they feel it is addictive and that's very similar to products like Instagram Reels YouTube shorts which are built to sort of to exactly copy what TikTok was doing because both YouTube which is owned by Google and Instagram which is owned by Meta two of the biggest companies in the world were desperate to be able to compete with TikTok but Instagram itself as a as a platform is of course we all know it is the it's the audio is the visuals it's the images that is a really really smart system of delivering not just what people are following but also suggestions for what they might want to follow that might be a little bit more extreme it might so if someone's following pictures of you know a 13-year-old girl of her favorite pop star who's very slim or they're following an influencer who does a lot of fashion stuff it might then push them into more of this eating disorder content you've got platforms like YouTube where people again are following what they want to follow but you're given recommendations based on that and some of that may be from people who are putting up a half hour video in which they're showing lots of different fashion outfits but then you don't know that 25 minutes in they're actually putting in content which is about encouraging kids to you know telling kids actually the only way to be really fashionable look great in your clothes is to be extremely skinny and here's how you do that you've got platforms like Pinterest which again I have a really powerful recommendation and just based on years and years of use in which they understand that if someone likes a certain kind of thing they might be open to learning about something else then you've got I mean Twitter is really an irrelevant for kids because to be honest it's kind of really Twitter is kind of a platform it's a very small platform a it's about a fifth maybe even less than that the size of Instagram it's less than less than one tenth the size of Facebook but really that's used primarily by adults and people who are interested in politics sports and one of those discuss it online and then you've got Facebook now Facebook is a really interesting platform because of course we're all told that kids don't use it but actually lots and lots of them do it may be a smaller portion of kids who use it than this portion of adults who use Facebook which is you know it's almost ubiquitous nearly all adults do but it is still a really powerful platform because that's where someone can drip drip drip the lies over time that make kids feel that they're not good enough and then of course there there can be a whole mix of people it can be people who are already afflicted and you know this from from your work as a psychologist but people that often have one of these problems might seek to sort of pretend to themselves and to the world that this is normal this is okay I'm not actually you know I'm not doing something wrong by taking up this this extremely dangerous diet and so they might be posting that material or it might be people with much more malignant motives whether they be commercial or just because they frankly hate women and there's a lot of content that is frankly misogynist in content saying that you know you are unable to find love unless you are this body shape and don't come to you know no girls who have one pound of over their ideal way should it should will ever be able to be loved so you've got a whole array of content out there on a platform like keepsake is the easiest way for parents to capture and preserve memories about their little ones and growing kiddos keepsake is so great it sends daily text prompts with thoughtful questions so you don't miss those memory making moments your text responses and photos are stored in an app with easy access it's like a digital journal but you genuinely just like respond to the text and boom it goes in there it's never too late to start documenting childhood it works great for new moms works great for toddlers early school age and as they continue to grow and start new activities sports vacations birthdays and also just the everyday adorable moments there's always amazing moments that you can look back on and instead of wishing you have better records and feeling exhausted and way too disorganized to bother Keepsake has a solution for you. Also, your first week is completely free. So keepsake spelled with a Q because of the questions it asks you to build out in your journal. So keepsake Q-E-E-P-S-A-K-E is the website and the code is humans for 20% off your annual subscription. Don't forget to put in the code humans at Q-E-E-P-S-A-K-E-D.com with the code humans for 20% off. Okay, I'm a probiotic person. I just think we all could use a good probiotic and 80 to 90% of Americans suffer from some gut issue according to research. 99.9% of the probiotics on the market actually die in your naturally harsh stomach because of the assets. So before they even get where they're needed, even the refrigerated ones die. So even though probiotics are a great idea, how can a probiotic help you thrive? It has to survive. So that's where just thrive comes in. Just thrive has proprietary strains that have been third party clinically tested and proven to arrive 100% alive in your gut. It's the only brand with this patented strain of HU36, which produces antioxidants in the gut. It is shown in clinical trials to start to address your gut health in just 30 days and it has a thousand times better survive ability versus yogurt and leaving probiotics. And of course it's paleo, keto, vegetarian, and vegan friendly. So if you're ready to take control and live your health is life yet, you can get 20% off your first 90 day bottle of just calm and just thrive probiotic today. Visit justthrivehealth.com and use the promo code humans. And while you're there, you can check out their other clinically backed products. And of course I did a sponsored bonus episode with the founder to just learn a little bit more about probiotics. Take control today with just thrive. So it's so disturbing because it has been so normalized that I imagine a lot of parents don't even realize what they're up against. And I don't think it gets solved by just saying not to pay attention to it because to your point, it's this drip, drip, drip, until you just believe it. And so along those lines, what other kinds of harmful content can kind of drip into the system? - Well, we see a lot of extremists targeting children as well. And then we see a lot of work by sexual predators. And you know, you and I have discussed this in the past, but this drip, drip of content that starts to undermine the teachings that we've given our kids as parents and instead starts to plant in their minds really dangerous ideas. And the normalization of that happens because if you see something frequently, it's called the illusory treatment that can start to believe it's normal. So you see something a hundred times a day, you think, well, everyone's thinking that or saying that or doing that. And unfortunately because of the way that platforms work and because of the absolute relentlessness of some of the bad actors, some of the predators that we study at the Center for Counter-Indigital Hague, they are pumping this material regularly. So it might be in spuracy content and we know from our own research that 14 to 17 year olds. And this is really disturbing. They have a higher level of belief in nine conspiracies that we tested than adults. And kids who used social media for five hours plus, they had even higher belief. So we were seeing that 43% of 14 to 17 year olds believed in anti-Semitic conspiracy theories and 54% of those who use social media for more than five hours a day. The determining fact is the length of time they spend on social media that really dictates whether or not they believe in these crazy conspiracies that are when it comes to anti-Semitic conspiracy theories. I mean, you can tell from my ass and I come from Europe and my country fought the Nazis and defeated the Nazis alongside the United States. But my continent of Europe knows what happens when anti-Semitism and that kind of hate is normalized. It leads to terrors that we simply couldn't comprehend. It's really vital that we stop this kind of content being sent to our kids. And if it is that we have those conversations with our kids, shame free, so we can help them understand just how dangerous they are. I mean, ultimately what it comes down to, and you keep saying this is these conversations with our kids and shame free. And because we don't want them to feel like there's something wrong with them for being curious or interested, it's playing at exactly what it needs to get them to be curious and interested. So I want to make sure that that's super clear and how protective our relationships can be. Not just because we want to have these conversations and be close and connected, but also because then when we set limits and we give real reasons why and we've had deep conversations, it's taken seriously and it's not about the shame thing that goes into, "Well, I'll just sneak this." I couldn't possibly agree more. And it is really about having those open spaces in families and in our relationships with our kids that they can tell us what they're seeing. The average American teenager spends 4.8 hours a day on social media, the average. That is phenomenal, right? - Wow. - Compare that to the amount of time that we can spend to our kids, with our kids. Compare that with, they do digital literacy in school now, but one hour every semester or every year, or one hour in their entire time when they're at school is not enough to equip them with the literacy required to deal with an ever evolving range of applications, the ever evolving tactics of bad actors, the ever evolving nature of algorithms which have become more addictive every day and more dangerous, therefore, every day, more effective in selling ads, sure. But that's what they're designed for. They're not designed to keep us healthy or to give us good information. They're designed to keep people on the platform for as long as possible so they can be fed ads. And I think that we've got a real challenge ahead of us as a society. And in the short term, I think parents can play a role, but believe me, I understand how difficult it is. I mean, my wife and I were welcoming a baby girl into our family in September. And I think about the fact that even now, and I'm a fairly young guy, I still find tick tick that gives me a migraine. I can't keep up with all the platforms that are coming out. I have staff who laugh at me when they watch me trying to use even Instagram Reels. And so you think about what's coming up soon. And actually, it's an incredibly complex landscape. And one of the challenges for parents is to keep up with that until someone actually does something on a systemic level. And CCVH is, that's what we're designed to do as an organization. We're designed to create the institutional pressures that will drive systemic change, that we get basic regulations in place to make sure that there's transparency of these platforms, that they're held accountable by a body, whether that's like a new version of the FCC for social media, or that it's a more knowledgeable and empowered selectivity in Congress. And also that we can hold them responsible, because in reality, the reason that most of us take health and safety seriously, that we know that when we buy a soda, that it's not going to be full of toxins, is because if it was, we'd be able to sue them, right? Well, because of a weird law in America passed in 1996, something called Section 230 of the Communications Decency at 1996. Social media platforms are the only industry in America that isn't subject to negligence law. And that is bonkers, a, completely bananas, but also-- It really is shocking. And it's something we've got to fix. Look, I am working really hard on this right now. We're about to launch a major new PSA in the next few weeks. Our last PSA has been running for a year, but we're launching a major new one, trying to encourage parents to have our back, as we ask Congress, to have their backs. Because we need to put the pressure on them in this year, in this election year, that they need to promise in this election year, that when they come back, they're going to stop with the games. It doesn't matter who's in power. They've got to stop with the games about social media companies and start ensuring there are basic regulations in place, and that we overturn or change the silly law that makes it impossible for us to hold these companies accountable. Because if you're never able-- if you can't hold someone to account, that's tyranny. And right now, we have a technological tyranny where these companies, these enormous companies, we can't have our voices heard inside them, because we have no voice. Versed is the cure to over-complicated skin care routines with effective, easy-to-use products and streamlined routines. Versed makes it easy for busy moms to care for their skin on their own time. I am so obsessed with this new product that they have, the Advanced Retinol Body Butter. I've been using it for a few weeks. I love it so much. And now you can get the amazing results of Retinol for your face all over your body, which, by the way, is so awesome. I don't know why I didn't-- know about it sooner. We're thinking of it. Like, why isn't this a thing? And, verse is dermatologist tested, clinically tested, sensitive skin friendly, cruelty free, begin, it's community approved, so every product is tested on actual real skin. And, verse is excited to offer raising good humans listeners an exclusive 15% off discount on your first order, only for a limited time and for anything in the verse universe. Discover verse at verse skin dot com and target find verse in store at target or visit verse skin dot com slash humans and use the code humans 15 at checkout for 15% off your purchase. That's V E R S E D skin dot com slash humans. You've got to get the retinal body better. I'm so into it. Now, can you tell us what happened when you did give the data to TikTok, just as an example of transparency or lack thereof? Yeah, I mean, look, when we gave the data to TikTok on the stuff that we'd seen on steroids and on eating disorders and on misogynist content, we were able to work out, for example, using their data center that 13.2 billion views of eating disorder and self-harm content on the hashtags that we'd identified had been had been delivered by their platform to kids. So they delivered that content 13.2 billion times to kids. That's, you know, a dozen times for every child on earth. Their reaction was to remove our ability to see how many times hashtags have been viewed. So they actually removed that part of what they call the creator's center that gives you the data on how many times hashtags. You know, matter typically don't answer when we get in touch. Google have locked us in endless conversations about YouTube and X, which is, you know, the one of the least accountable of all platforms. They actually started suing organizations that are trying to research them, saying that, you know, how dare you research. It's kind of, you know, really sort of it's it's the kind of behavior you'd expect in. I don't know some sort of dictatorship or Russia. Yeah, it's really so hard to believe. And that's why I wanted everyone to hear from you. Yeah. We just expect to be somewhat protected that there are some forces that are looking at the overall picture like they do with everything else. And so hopefully you're making massive headway. But in the meantime, when we have this information at least we can go in with our eyes wide open. Yeah. And look, we've got a really big task ahead of us. We're a, you know, a small five or once you three a charity hour. You know, we are spending every day. And we are absolutely tireless. I mean, I'm talking to you and it's 750 here in London. We are trying to get the message out to legislators to regulators to advertisers to tell them, look, can't you use your pressure to try and change the way these companies behave? So we go to the big advertisers like Disney, like Nike and say, hey, guys, this is what we're seeing. Can you use your special voice inside these social media companies? Because of course, advertising is 98% of their revenues. So nearly all their money comes from advertisements. And we're saying, can you help us to change things? But in the meantime, we've got to get the message out to parents because, you know, I know the fear of trying to have those conversations with kids. I've been in my friends' houses as they've tried to help me to, you know, persuade their kids. My wife and I, we sit on the sofa at night and we talk about this frequently. What are we going to do? How do we cope with this world that is moving beyond our understanding and in which we can see threats emerging to our children, that there is no one protecting them from? So it's a really, really big big job for all of us. It is a really big job for all of us. I don't, I don't want people to feel helpless. I do think there is, there is much we can do. And part of that is really feeling emboldened to have these conversations with our kids set limits in the context of the loving kindness and curiosity and be able to help support organizations like yours to take care of the bigger picture systemic issue. So, no great, I mean, it's a huge task, but I do think this information really helps us not just sort of do this, what I think happens is, well, I'll push it off until a particular date as if at that magical moment our kids are going to be sort of equipped and we're going to know what's going on and it just isn't that simple unfortunately. Well, look, here's three things parents can do today after, you know, right now, just have to listen to this podcast. The first is make sure they're subscribing to this podcast because it's full of great advice and really great insight and I have learnt so much from you myself. The second is that, you know, you very kindly sent me, you're booked on the five principles of parenting and it is just incredible. I've been devouring it and there's so much good advice in there just generally about creating those conversations, those relationships with our children. But the third is to go to our website, protectingkidsonline.org, where we have our latest PSA, we're going to have actions that people can take and we're going to have our parents guide which people can download for free and they can learn a little bit more about some of the things that we've booked about tonight. I just thank you so much for your work and we'll keep having these conversations and make this better for when your little girl is emerging into the world of technology, you have so much time, I'm so glad. I think there's nothing like the, you know, the third largest time of brain development is transition to parenthood. So I feel like you'll just be watching the motivation which you've already had which I think is so extraordinary that you've done this without even having your own kids and you have been taking care of everybody else's. That's so kind. I mean, I am blessed to have six brothers and sisters who've had so many kids, but yeah, it really makes it different and special and personal when you start thinking about your own child. We don't have a name yet. My wife wants to call her Lillian and I want to call her poop monster, but we'll win. We'll see. I'm going to miss my bed on someone. I mean, incredibly persuasive, don't you worry. So yes, I mean, it really does sort of bring that added just emotional edge to it all. And I do feel for parents. I think that I think that this is one of the hardest challenges that comes in young in a child's life is when to connect them to the outside world and look, we think all the time about who our kids should spend time with. As we want on them. And here's the danger of this device. I mean, the funny thing is we know where our kids are all the time. They're with their phones. They're on the sofa. They're in their bedroom. We just don't know who they're with and we don't know who's trying to influence them. And if it's if it's a completely inhuman artificial algorithm, which was programmed by some kind of, you know, young guys who don't really understand any of this in San Francisco, who don't really care about safety because they're just thinking, hey, I could be the next dot com billionaire. This program could have really, really malignant, really damaging effects on our kids. So I think that, you know, I hope everyone out there find something useful for this. And, you know, if you've got ideas as well, please get in contact with us with both Eliza and with me because we are trying really hard, we're trying everything to make sure that every child is protected in the area around the world. Please note that this episode may contain paid endorsements and advertisements for products and services. Individuals on the show may have a direct or indirect financial interest in products or services referred to in this episode.