21. The Truth About Self-Compassion: OCD, Anxiety, Eating Disorders, & Chronic Illness with Kimberley Quinlan, LMFT - Your Anxiety Toolkit

(upbeat music) - Hello and welcome to a chat with Uma, with me, your host, Uma R. Chatterjee. On this podcast, I bring together all of my roles as a neuroscientist, researcher, board certified mental health peer specialist, mental health advocate, community builder, and a survivor with lived experience to bring you honest and unfiltered conversations exploring our true human experiences in their fullest form. Every week, I'm bringing you conversations bridging the gap on all things neuroscience, psychology, mental health, lived experience, advocacy, psychedelics, and more. This is a space for raw unfiltered truth to truly explore ourselves for who we are and how we are. I cannot wait to connect with you, answer all of your questions and co-create this with you. Welcome to a chat with Uma. Hello, my beautiful friends and welcome back to another episode of a chat with Uma. I am so beyond the world and honored to introduce today's podcast guest. I don't think she needs an introduction. I'm pretty sure almost everybody here has, either come across her content, listen to her podcast or just straight up, knows her because she is so incredible in the way she shows up in the world. But for Formality's sake, I am truly honored to introduce Kimberly Quinlan, who is a licensed marriage and family therapist and public speaker who is the host of your anxiety toolkit podcast, founder of CBT School, and owner of Kimberly Quinlan, a marriage and family therapy corporation in Los Angeles, California. She is passionate about the treatment of obsessive compulsive disorder and related disorders, eating disorders and body focused repetitive behaviors and provides one-on-one treatment and online courses for those who are struggling in these areas. She is proud to provide services using the gold standard evidence-based treatment for OCD, anxiety, and depression. Advocating for those with mental health disorders is also a huge part of her life mission and she serves as a global advocate for the International OCD Foundation. She is also a founder of CBT School, an online psycho-education platform where she offers support and research-based educational products to those who cannot access the correct care. CBT School offers low-cost online courses and free resources for OCD, anxiety, and BFRBs. And if that wasn't enough, she is also the best-selling author of the self-compassion workbook for OCD. Lean into your fear, manage difficult emotions and focus on recovery. And she is also an incredible online creator advocating for and creating so many online free educational resources for all things in mental health and recovery. She is truly such an incredible human being. Of course, as a clinician and an educator and a communicator, but also just as someone who shares her lived experience so powerfully and really just comes to this space with so much care and commitment to normalizing the human experience. And she shares herself so generously in everything she creates and does. I don't know how she survives or manages to be a human being with the amount that she provides to the world. So this episode is obviously full of education about all of her zones of genius and expertise and self-compassion, OCD, anxiety, depression, eating disorders, recovery. And it's also really illuminating sharing her own lived experience with the different conditions she has navigated, her journey into how she came into her roles and into her career as a clinician and educator, as well as the things that she's living with on a day-to-day basis, including chronic illness, disabilities. We talk about all things research and just really myth-busting around topics that she's passionate about and bringing nuance to the conversation of self-compassion, self-love, recovery. It's just such a beautiful episode that showcases so much of her magic in every way. So I really hope that you love this episode and without further ado, let's get into this beautiful conversation with the amazing Kimberly Quinlan. (upbeat music) Okay, I'm glad this is recording now because I wanted to get this on audio because I feel like not only, do I want you to hear this, but I want to hear, I want everyone listening to Hear This, which is, first of all, welcome to the show. Kimberly, thank you so much for being here. And I just want you to know that the way you show up to me in my life and I know just so many people, I feel like you are sunshine and human form. And I want to unpack that because I know that on the surface, that might sound like just positivity and good vibes. And that's not what I mean at all because I, because you are actually just the exemplification to me of so much more than positivity or just, you know, good energy, you are just so full of compassion. I know that's what we're gonna get into, self-compassion and compassion, but you're just so full of authenticity and experiencing and sharing the fullness of the human experience. And to me, that is sunshine because to me, sunshine illuminates all that is real and all that we experience and brings light to the fullness that is existing. And that is what I feel like you do in this world in every form through everything you do professionally as you show up as a human. And I just firstly want to thank you for that. And it's such a privilege and joy to get to talk to you and learn more about your life. So first of all, thank you for hearing my ramble for you. - Wow, that is so kind of you to say, thank you. That is so fulfilling to hear, thank you. - And in line with that, I always like to start the show by asking before we get into the nitty gritty and everything amazing that you do, who is the person behind all that you do? And the ways you show up in the world, how is you describe yourself? What comes to mind? - I mean, I'm a mess. I'm a human mess. I always sort of stop there just because I think being a human requires messiness. I'm very, something that I don't talk about a lot, but who I am behind all of it is I'm someone who has a very big range of emotions. I, one of my biggest qualities and also the most difficult part about being me is I constantly see both sides of a story, which is wonderful. It gives you great curiosity and open mindedness and compassion. The hard part is if my anxiety is flaring, it means I'm like seeing it from everybody's view and then that makes it very, very difficult. So that's sort of maybe hind it. I mean, in general, my hope is just to, again, like you said, just bring some joy, bring some sunshine. I love that idea. And help, yeah. - I love that. And I know that so many people feel that from you. Feel that care you have. And the fact that in your work and the way, I'm giving so many spoilers, but the in your work and the way that you educate and the way that you share, it's not about limiting what we feel or, you know, making ourselves someone we're not. It's just learning how to exist as we are and especially for people who are extremely, you know, sensitive in the best sense and just have so many emotions and feel deeply. And I resonate with that so much. So thank you for sharing that 'cause I know it permeates through everything. And so I know that people know you and your work in so many different ways. But I want to go to, I guess, I first want to know how you came into specifically working with OCD because I know your story is out there and you've shared at length about your journey with mental health yourself and the diagnoses that you live with. And I'm just so curious how you started working with OCD in particular. - Yeah, so it's really quite fascinating because I'm really open. I don't have OCD. I am an OCD specialist. I love treating OCD and love hanging out with people who have OCD for many reasons. It really just fell into my lap by luck. I wanted to treat anxiety. I actually wanted to treat panic when I first started treating and I actually wanted to run groups. That was my goal as a clinician. So I sought out the only internship I could find that would allow me to treat panic and groups. And it just happened to be, I don't know, CD clinic. I had never met anybody with OCD until that day. But it clicked on such a deep level so quickly, like the way we conceptualized OCD because I myself had an eating disorder and compulsive exercise. And that model just felt like, I was like, these are my people. Like this is exactly what it felt like for me to be stark and this cycle. And I kind of just still love treating panic and I do treat panic, but I just sort of fell into being an OCD specialist, which again, like I said, it was just a little bit of luck for a great life. of luck. That is so so interesting to hear and I love hearing clinician and researchers stories of especially if people who don't have OCD because I think in the world be live in and what we're working toward you know changing is the stigma and the lack of understanding of what OCD actually is and so I think there's an added level of kind of a lack of interest in the diagnosis or treating it except for when someone has a personal vested interest and so so often times I find that you know most of the clinicians and the people who speak at length and advocate for it happen to have it or happen to have a loved one who has it or so so when I find someone who just came into it and just understood the visceral like you know the beauty in the treatment and how much they can be of service and helping people I just I love hearing stories like that so and it speaks to your heart too so thank you so much for sharing that and that makes me want to go back to just the parts of your story that you would be willing to share in terms of you know how you came into being a therapist because as far as I understand that was not your first career. I had a professional career in my mental disorder if that makes any sense meaning my undergraduate was in exercise science I majored in nutrition and those two things well and truly fueled my eating disorder and my compulsive exercise so it was like a professional mental health problem I had found a way to make my mental health problem my career and I kind of got to the point where I was like I can't recover and stay in this career at the same time and interestingly something I always wanted to be before my eating disorder sort of just swooped in and took over all my decisions was to become a therapist and so they got to a point where I really had to have that conversation like can you really recover if you're surrounded by treadmills and mirrors? Probably not. What would be something you could do that would support your recovery and bring you some joy and pay your bills in a way that is sort of sustainable for you and and it just sort of happened. The cool thing is I'm really grateful for that work that I did. It really did I think shape me with other values that I have so you know it was cool to sort of move into mental health and take the good pieces of that but leave the parts that weren't helpful. Absolutely and I think in the way society sometimes talks to us about our trajectories and our careers and like you know pick something and do it and you know why pivot like that's just such an how amazingly you do in your work just goes to show that every step of our journey contributes to who we are and what we learn and how we can move forward with such a unique skill set and I think you with your education especially around compulsive behavior and eating disorders like you have so much to offer from what you have learned and just understanding that side of you know the conditioning and the experiences humans can have with health and exercise and sometimes where that can be unhealthy so I'm yeah thank you so much for just again the way that you have brought your experience into into service there's so many examples of that and I would just love to know because I'm dying into getting into the word self-compassion when we first talked it was on a town hall for the iocdf about grief and I had told you that the word self-compassion just made me so angry when I first started treatment for ozd because I just didn't understand it I thought it was like self-love and I had no capability of feeling self-love and it was only for people who could you know be flowery and weird and of course I was in a very dark place at the time and I learned so much more since than largely from your resources and the way you shared and so before we get into self-compassion I'm just curious has that been a part of your work as a therapist as a trainee as a human for a long time or is that something you came into later down the line and if so how how did that become a part of your work and your ethos? yeah so in my eating disorder I was very resistant to getting going really deep into recovery I had an eating disorder an amazing eating disorder therapist and she would call me out on my stuff but still I I was very very protective of my eating disorder and she had introduced me to a meditation teacher called Tara Brock she's like my absolute favorite person in the world like I could be one person it would be her but she's this was sort of back when you had to like there was a podcast you had to like download it onto your computer and then upload it onto your like your ipod you know back to those days and I would download these meditations and I would put them in my ear and I would walk because I was still compulsively exercising right so I was reducing my eating disorder behaviors but ramping up you know my exercise compulsions so I would put these in and I would walk miles and miles and miles because the rule that we had set was that I wasn't allowed to run and I wasn't allowed to be on the treadmill I found very sneaky ways to keep the eating disorder going but I would listen to this podcast of Tara Brock talk about mindfulness and self-compassion and there was something about me like pounding footsteps out on the pavement right and just listening to that that it slowly seeped in to where I could understand similar to you like self-compassion isn't always love and kindness and warmth and nurturing and that very motherly you know nurturing behavior sometimes it's standing up to fear sometimes it's putting you're taking your shoes off and not exercising sometimes it's you know doing the hard thing and not the easy thing and so these were sort of messages that I got over time and without them I would never have given up my eating disorder ever if it was all love and warmth and flowers and candles and stuff that wouldn't have flown for me so it was very much the same for me but it took you know hundreds of miles of walking it out listening to actually get that something you said about the way you described that not dichotomy but just the coexistence of self-compassion being all of the beautiful things we think of that might be triggering for some but also just that commitment to ourselves and our well-being is it's so liberating and so expansive to that definition because you're right it's it can so oftentimes feel like just the first thing and that makes me want to ask you a question actually because I realized as you described self-compassion the first part in those exact words the love the warmth the care the nurturing you know oftentimes the motherly love I think something that triggered me about the term is that I didn't know at all what that felt like and what that meant because that was never modeled to me growing up that was not modeled to me in my life and so and I know I'm not the only one so as we you know move into talking about self-compassion and all of your work in it I guess I'm so curious what you would say to people who maybe feel a little hopeless about self-compassion being accessible to them because they don't even know how to start feeling those things because they were really never shown or modeled that so I one thing I wrote in my book and I believe this fully is that we all have this seed of compassion in us right we were all born with it because even if it wasn't modeled to us the human race for millions of years back has has a genetic component of taking care of each other community right and so that even if it wasn't modeled to us in this generation it is in our genetic makeup that we would take care of other people we would look out for other people and so forth so that compassion seed is there it might be dormant it may not have grown much at all may not have been nurtured in your in your lifetime but the way that I I like to think of it is it is a seed that can be watered very slowly and and nurtured with time and it doesn't have to be anytime soon either it could be one drop of water today metaphorically and the thing to remember here and this is often what I sort of will call my clients out on is the compassion seed while you haven't really probably nurtured it for yourself you're doing it for people all the time so it's well and truly thriving it's just that you haven't tried it on yourself and that's okay you might be ready and there's no rush here right but we know it's there and we know it's going well and truly well because you are out you know usually people with OCD have these huge hearts or with anxiety have these huge hearts and they care so much so much that it causes them anxiety in many cases and so really it's just saying okay you've watered it metaphorically for other people and when you're ready if you're ready you can stop to do that for yourself to in the smallest step that you're comfortable with. Mike drop right there. I know everyone listening is like, yeah, I do feel that for other people. So that's a cop out. No, I love that. And I really appreciate you sharing that truth. And I guess before we move forward, 'cause I keep asking you 50 million questions about self-compassion, what is your definition of self-compassion for those who are not as familiar or have avoided the topic until this podcast? - Yeah. - So I always say self-compassion isn't unicorns and rainbows. It's a basic wish for your wellness, right? Again, it doesn't have to be warm, hot, fuzzy, lovy things. It can be just the wish for your general wellness, whatever that means to you, emotional, physical, spiritual. And so I keep it very simple there, because I'm never gonna tell somebody what compassion should be for them, because it's very personal, right? It's very personal. It's a very much a personal decision you make for yourself on what it looks like. But going back to your last question, another, when we have that conversation, we actually can also start to look at ways that you are compassionate towards yourself. Well, it might be again that feminine act, and I'm not talking about gender here, I'm just talking about masculine versus feminine. It might be that feminine, but often, if someone shows up to therapy, that is an act of compassion. It's the wish to be well. If somebody brushes their teeth, that's often an act of self-compassion. It's the wish for their teeth and gums to be well. It doesn't have to be love and all the things. It can be, but it doesn't have to be. And often people are acting in a self-compassionate way. In many areas of their life, they just haven't framed that as that. Hmm, that's such an important point, because like you said, especially when, even if we feel like we don't have any self-preservation or we don't love ourselves at all, well, if we are getting up and we are trying to function in a day, amongst so much hardship, amongst so much pain, if we are getting ourselves to therapy, if we're getting ourselves to a job, to be able to pay our bills and survive, if we're feeding ourselves anything, like that is some level of care toward ourselves, and it's kind of undeniable, and we can harness that. So I love that. And how would you conceptualize self-compassion playing a role in, I guess let's start with just the typical, the more disordered side of things, like having a diagnosis or OCD, or really any diagnosis really. How does self-compassion play a role in treatment and in recovery? - So first we can kind of look at the research around self-compassion in that we do know in contrast to, you know, often when people see me or see a clinician or have a disorder, or even not, often humans will engage in a safety behavior called self-criticism, right? And they're using that as a genuine attempt to stay present, stay, say effective, stay, you know, really functioning, right? They're saying, get going, come on, you loser, let's go, let's go, like, and they're, well yes, that's painful. We're only doing that because we're trying to stay alive, stay well, stay functioning, keep up with, you know, the Joneses, or even just in general, basic, basic needs. So self-compassion in contrast with that, if we were to compare in contrast, self-compassion, we've known to increase general mental wellbeing, right? We know it does decrease anxiety, not increase it compared to self-criticism, as you can imagine, even just hearing me say, like, get going, you loser, my anxiety goes up just saying that, hearing that, right? So in contrast, self-compassion reduces anxiety, right? Not in a compulsive way either, in a genuine, like it doesn't make the problem worse, right? Self-compassion reduces procrastination. It increases motivation, much to what people don't understand. It's a better motivator than self-criticism and self-compassion, and self-punishment, excuse me. We have a lot of research that it's self-compassion's helpful for immunity, physical wellbeing, you know? So we've got all of this new research, including now OCD as well, is that by responding to a couple of things differently, we can actually reduce our severe, our intrusive thoughts, our obsessions are. We could do that by how we respond to intrusive thoughts. We could do it on how we respond to our physical experience of pain and discomfort, because when we're anxious, we tend to tense up and squeeze and grit and, and, and reflect, so it can help with that as well. It's on, again, it's also helpful in helping us reduce compulsions. If we respond, if we catch ourselves doing compulsions and we respond with compassion, compared to the whip that we bring out metaphorically, that actually can help us get back to reducing those mental, those compulsions as well. I, I want to get into like a part you said real fast before we zoom back out. You talked about research, and I've heard you speak on the fact that you have, I think like a pub med subscription to different like research terms or something, or Google Scholar, one of research gate, one of those things, which brings me a lot of joy because hello researcher and reading papers. So I am very curious how you, you know, like the different types of research that you're interested in, like is it research with, you know, like in psychological settings, is itself report, like what kind of research is out there because this is such a new booming field. And I'm so excited for all the slur on it. - Yeah, so it could be any. Sometimes the research is really broad. And again, like sort of more of a meta-analysis when we look at general well-being that report. Like we've got lots of meta-analysis there. Others can be very small controlled studies or even case studies as well. So I think there's a combo. In the last 10 years, the research has gone from next to nothing on self-compassion. Thanks to Christian Nair, Christopher Germa, some other amazing researchers now. We're like getting tons and tons all the time, even in specific areas like OCD or a metaphobia or you know, eating disorders or all these things. So this is really exciting. And I think that what we're now starting to see, you know, as I see these different researchers coming out all the time is we're starting to see them not broad 'cause at the beginning it was just broad for like human beings in general. But now to being very specific like with ERP or with medication or without medication. A lot through COVID was showing specific demographics. Like how a teenager is doing with self-compassion compared to not. And so that's where I think it's really cool we're starting to get a little more detail in the research as well. - And as someone who is at the cutting edge of disseminating this information because that is objectively true about you. I'm curious to know your perspective on is self-compassion something that is being widely practiced or taught in therapeutic settings in your opinion by people who treat not just OCD but other anxiety disorders and just disorders that would benefit from self-compassion which is probably everything honestly. Whereas is something that is kind of up and coming that you are hoping to reach more clinicians and people to integrate into their work. Like where is this at with clinical practice? - Well, it's definitely improved. I started writing the self-compassion workbook for OCD right as COVID hit and I felt like nobody was talking about it. So that it was really cool when the book came out every, I felt like in our little community that was really awesome to see like we're starting to talk about it is as just a part of treatment. I think now my concern if I'm being completely honest is I think that in our field we have improved and we are using it, compassion, focus therapy is really pushing forward. I think that there are other modalities that are really incorporating self-compassion. And again, general mindfulness incorporates self-compassion. My concern though is particularly in the social media field. A bunch of people who aren't super trained in it are using the word synonymously with self-love and pulling his backwards to thinking that it's just like I'm gonna love myself back to health, which is cool if that was all it took. So I'm sort of on the fence right now, but that could be just me on this day. But I'm really excited about the research. I'm really excited about the way we're moving psychologically. But I'm also concerned about how we're moving and using buzz. It just is a buzz word, just mindfulness as well. Just be mindful or just be self-compassionate. And that's cool. I think the more we talk about it, the better. But we also have to preface that with, it's a long messy process that you have to be patient with, and it's not a quick fix. It is a quick fix if you practice it for many years, but I want everyone to be super compassionate about their compassionate practice because it's a bumpy road. Thank you so much for bringing that up and being honest, at least about how you're feeling today, because that's so important to talk about. It's something that I really struggle with in particular. On the one hand, I'm an advocate. I'm someone with a fluted experience, and I understand the mentality to want to channel your pain into purpose and to create advocacy and to talk about things and raise awareness about things that you're really passionate about. And totally, totally understand that. And as a researcher, as someone who's living in the papers all day every day, and has been continuously training in understanding things from an empirical perspective, using operational definitions, learning caveats and nuance, and understanding limitations on terms, and just the simple effect of saying something, and that being widespread on social media, from an advocacy standpoint, there's so much that can happen for the better and for worse, on the one hand raising awareness, on the other hand, just totally changing the definition of a word, and incorporating into people's perception of treatment. And really, there's such a lack of discernment, I suppose, sometimes in consuming information, because people don't know what they don't know. And so, I guess, in the way of hope, people like you who are so well-educated and trained, and are continuously learning, and are people who do know what they don't know, and are working to share evidence-based work, just thank you for what you do, because I know it, I don't know if it feels helpless to you sometimes, if you're just one voice of so many, and how is the right, you know, or proper information going to get out? Well, you're doing it, and I wish, I wish personally, we could figure out a way to, I don't know, at least vet information, or just like create spaces for caveats and nuance, but at this point, at least you exist, and you're doing what you're doing. So, that's my rant on that to validate you, and how you feel as well. Thank you. No, I think these are the conversations where we can actually sit down and go, it is, it is love and kindness and nurturing, and it is also hard bumpy a road, that these are the conversations we need to have. So, thank you. And not only the conversations, but we've been dancing around this because I'm ready to, I've been waiting to get into it, your book, your amazing workbook for self-compassion in OCD, and I think yes, OCD, but also it's just a beautiful exercise, a self-compassion, and like getting truly into the nitty-gritty of what that can look like. And even if people don't have the experience, at least in my opinion, of OCD itself, it's just the idea that someone could have thoughts that they feel so horrific about and still show themselves self-compassion. I think that's a human experience overall of having thoughts or even feeling guilt about past actions, or just, you know, the negative thoughts people have about themselves for conditioning reasons, for mental health reasons, all of that. So, your book exists, that's amazing. I can't wait for everyone who hasn't already read it and worked with it to do so. And how did this book come? Is this something you always wanted to do? Is this something that you created because we needed a way to disseminate this information in an active way to clinicians who didn't know how to do it? Like, where did this book come from for you? Sure, yeah. I'm not a writer. Let's just be honest. It's crazy to me. I still don't believe that I wrote a book just one day. A publisher reached out and asked me because of a podcast, a specific podcast I did many years ago was like, I think you need to put this into a book. And I was like, uh, you don't understand. I'm not a writer. I'm a speaker, but I'm not a writer. And so they said, would you put this into a book? And I started to think about like, I have a lot to say about this. I really do want to write a book, even though it's not my, you know, most, uh, easy skill. Um, and so really what it is, truly what the book is, is just me putting down on paper the specific conversations I have with my clients every single day, right? And some of them are like come from research, mindfulness-based self-compassion or self-compassion focus therapy. And some are just metaphors that I use with clients that have really no science at all, but seem to help people understand how to, um, reduce some problematic behaviors that get in the way of practicing compassion in their life. Because again, we all have the capacity for it. It's just usually some beliefs and some core, um, core values that get in the way. So, um, that's sort of where it happened. Again, I, I, I was really just talking to my clients as I wrote it. And that's how it was written. I hear you when you say that you don't think you're a writer. And maybe that's not like immediately how you translate your thoughts to the world, but writing is words and you are one of the most just eloquent, like, compassionate, truly, but like in a way that translates to people, like, speakers. And I think if you just wrote it into words that you did, I mean, you are a writer, I guess is what I'm saying in my humble opinion. But I, with your book, I think one of the most, and I don't want to give too much away the spoilers, because I want people to actually get it. But to me, one of those striking parts of your workbook for me as someone with OCD and with a lot of shame and a lot of lack of self-compassion is if you haven't gotten yet, people like working on it, um, was reading the blatant examples of, you know, it would be like someone write, like, sharing examples of their thoughts, like a hypothetical person. And it'd be like a list of thoughts that to someone who maybe didn't understand OCD or someone who didn't understand the concept of the truth, it'd also be like holy shit, that is terrifying. Like, that's horrible. I would you want to read that. But for someone with OCD, to be able to read those even just examples, and then in the context and framework of self-compassion, it'd be like, wow, these triggering examples that I do actually resonate with that I feel a lot of shame toward or put in the context of how to show myself understanding and care. Like, that's actually real. Even just normalizing those thoughts outside of a therapeutic setting where I don't know, at least for me, like in a therapeutic setting, being validated in my thoughts, it was more so the dynamic I experience of like, okay, this is OCD, like let's deal with it rather than like, it's okay that you feel these things and like, you know, how do I, like how it's, it wasn't working on the shame so much as just how to not do compulsions, which, you know, it's so valid and so helpful. And with your workbook, just that added piece of normalizing that was just so important and so valuable. And I don't know if that's what you were thinking of when you wrote it, but I wanted to thank you and just to tell people that that's such a hugely valuable part of your work and your book. Thank you. I mean, that was the goal, right? So, just to sort of get to that, so much of self-compassion is mindfulness, right? It's, you know, you kind of have to use mindfulness to get through into self-compassion. And so much of mindfulness is the practice of non-judgment, right? And for people who are suffering with a mental illness, a lot of judgment comes from feeling like you're the only one who's messed up, like it must be just me. And I'm the one who's messed up in a special way that is worse than other people. Like that's the message of most mental illnesses. So my hope was, you know, let's get all the dirty stuff out. Even at some points, my publishers were like, can we have another example? Maybe not so. And I was like, no, it really needs to be in there. Like it has to be there, you know, even, you know, it was so important because some of the examples that we have in the book are people with really kind of graphic, you know, taboo topics. And so it was really cool to sort of talk about that and have that as so we can just sort of practice this non-judgment of like, here are these examples of people doing the same work that you're doing. So I'm glad that helped. Do you find any resistance from other people in the clinician field, like of this topic? Like does, or is this something that you feel like is well received in terms of self-compassion and advocating for that being an inclusive part of treatment? No, it's I've been so overwhelmed with with positive feedback. It's been really, really wonderful. And I think the reason for that is I was really careful as I wrote it. I mean, I spent so much time perseverating over some of the examples, trying to make sure I was, you know, showing them in a way that was very realistic to someone with OCD and not make my main goal was again against publisher's advice of like, can't we make this more positive? Can't we make this like more of a happy ending? And I had to really be careful of like, no, let's actually just show how messy and raw it is because that's, I don't want someone to read this and then be like, huh, I feel crap about myself because I don't feel wonderful any I don't I still feel these uncomfortable feelings. So, you know, I tried to keep it as real as I could. It was a hard thing, but I'm glad I did it that way. - And I'm here to tell those publishers, I'm one of so many people that this version of the book is what did the service to people to actually make that connect, that it's not, that even people who experience those exact, like, kinds of deeply distressing taboo thoughts are deserving of self-compassion. And it's not just, because there's so much room, especially with pathological doubt, or of, you know, making us as the exception to the rule of like, oh, well, people have those thoughts, it's okay, but like, what about me? I am probably not worthy of it. So, thank you publishers for listening to Kimberly, and you did a good job. (laughs) And in the name of all, I mean, there's so many ways that you show up in the world of service, far beyond obviously being an incredible therapist and working with patients and clients, one-on-one. You obviously have this book and another hugely important thing that I want to talk about is CBT school and the accessible way that you've distilled down knowledge and information that oftentimes people can't receive from a provider because they don't have accessibility to a provider trained in the proper treatments that people need. I'm thinking particularly about OCD, but I know it can span widely. So, I know that you created CBT school and the ERP school, I believe within that to just provide comprehensive education. And first of all, thank you. Once again, I'm just gonna say thank you 50 times on this podcast for all that you do. I would love to know how that was inspired within you and how you had the impetus to create that because you are already so busy with your practice and doing things one-on-one and all the advocacy you do online. - Yeah, so I had just started my private practice and this was a big deal. I was running a business and I, you know, this was a big deal, but what I, and I was so excited about it, but what I wasn't anticipating was the influx of people calling saying, "I really, really need help, but I can't afford your services." Or, "I don't live in your state and you can't give me therapy in a state that you're not licensed." But in their state, it's so much better now. Don't forget this was almost 10 years ago. Back then, in many states, there was literally zero OCD specialists. They were getting all of these other non-evidence-based treatments that were very, very problematic, making it worth. And I was sending them back to their own state going, "Sorry, there's nothing I can do. You can keep listening to my podcast, but good luck to you." And this was just killing me. I was feeling really crappy about it because I was like, "I'm supposed to be helping, and I'm really, I am, but I'm helping higher-previledged people who live in Los Angeles, who already probably have re-excessed to 12 other therapists or, you know, 15 therapists." And so out of that sort of moment of frustration and concern, I was like, "You know what? I could easily record the first seven sessions and get that show them, which is what we do in treatment anyway, is I educate, explain, you know, prepare a plan." And then a lot of it is them going and doing it on their own anyway. So surely I can record this and send it out and just get them going. And so that's what I did. I really had no idea what I was doing, but I just whacked it together because that's what I do. I whacked things together. And it whacked. It was so exciting because I found there were a whole group of people who, and this was what I wasn't expecting, who either didn't have access and that I was expecting. But the other thing is there's a lot of people who do have access to treatment or want to start, but they're just too scared. It's too big of a step. And they need this sort of baby step to sort of familiarize themselves with, or maybe they're just so ashamed, and they don't want to tell a therapist yet. But by taking a course, they can learn it and reduce some of that shame by learning in their PJs. So that was sort of why I think EOP School, particularly was so successful, is I think it helped those people who don't have access or weren't ready yet for the big deal. And I'm here to tell you that I know there's so much validity to, and I'm so grateful for in 10 years how far things have come, and more awareness, more accessibility, and a very big and, I just know firsthand from so many conversations with people, particularly clinicians, but also people in the community who just don't know how to learn ERP and who want to and who finally learn about OCD. And I guess two things that come to mind are, I was running a support group at the IOCDF conference and then someone came up to me and told me that in their state, they only, and it's not a very, I guess, well-known or populated state, but nonetheless, in that state, there was one person who practiced evidence-based OCD treatment on one side of the state and then nobody else at all. And they couldn't travel with their child to go see that person and they didn't do tele-therapy. And it was just, and also the child did not want to engage with tele-therapy. So anyway, that just is one salient example from just in the last month of the lack of accessibility and understanding, and they're really, really struggling. And I'm also just thinking about in my own work, a lot of what I do right now is in sharing my research project, I am talking to lots of clinicians and people who treat PTSD and who do psychedelic work. And in those spaces, like almost nobody has ever heard of OCD and the reason that I am raising awareness for OCDs because my project is on comorbid PTSD to OCD. All of that to say that I then usually have a very long line of people with conversations on, okay, like, wow, I didn't know OCD, this is what OCD is, I don't know what ERP is, like how do I learn it, how do I learn to treat it? And like, obviously that's not my domain of expertise other than saying how life changing it can be for people. So really the only places other than free resources that I have to point people are the IOCDF, BTTI, and your work on CBT school. And this is for clinicians who can hear this in a way that understand, they understand, from a case conceptualization standpoint. And so I just want you to know that your work is making a huge difference for the very many people who still don't understand, or know how to treat OCD, but have a new interest in so, so thank you for that. And thank you for being just an evergreen open resource for people everywhere. And for making it for both patients and for clinicians to understand equal. And I think to my knowledge, just for anyone listening if you're a clinician, I think there's an option to get CE credits as well. - Yeah. - Through it, which is, I mean, there you go, what other incentive, nothing else, get you credits. - Yeah, it's, it is true. The thing that I will say, which I've got a lot of positive feedback from clinicians is the courses actually taught to the sufferer, right? It's like, as I'm speaking, I'm speaking directly to the sufferer. And then we added modules onto that for the therapist part of the course as well. And the reason I love that is for people who've never spoken or they have clients with OCD and never treated it, my hope is that they can use a language not clinical, not like, you know, your, it just more just treating them as a human being and really addressing it like, you know, normalizing the experience. Instead of seeing it from like, you're having this experience but other non-OCD sufferers, well, we don't have this experience. Just trying to normalize that. And that's been really cool to see clinicians take that model on so that they can just, again, like, human to human, not clinician to OCD, you know, sufferer. That actually reminds me of something that I've been meaning to ask you because you just talked about talking to a patient. And something that comes to mind from a lot of conversations I've had with people, like other people with OCD in the community is this kind of idea or perception that they prefer or think that they need to have a clinician open about their lived experience, their own lived experience with OCD themselves because there's just no way that someone will fully understand them or empathize with them in a way that someone without OCD would. And I think you're obviously an amazing example of someone who doesn't have OCD, but who treats it so effectively, who is in such service to the community and, you know, really understands and empathizes and validates and, you know, is able to work with humans and understand them on a visceral level. And I know that generally, and really not just mental health treatment, but any treatment whatsoever, like cancer or anything, like, yeah, it's nice, I guess, if we find that the person treating us can add that layer of lived experience, but it doesn't change that they're able to treat someone effectively. And I think it can get more nuanced and complex when it's about interpersonal building connections with people and talking to them, you know, many hours a month instead of, like, a few times a year. But my question to you is, especially because you don't have OCD, you do have lived experience with an eating disorder, with anxiety, with other things. As a human and as a clinician, how would you address that kind of narrative that people should just work with someone who has OCD? Because I don't think that's in service of most people. Yeah, I mean, I try not to talk people into seeing me, meaning like, I try not to spend too much time saying, like, no, no, no, I'm definitely, you know, as qualified as someone with OCD, because I'm not, you know, I don't, I think not having OCD, I think there's something beautiful to having two people with OCD looking at each other in the eyes and being like, "I get you," and feeling that. I think it's also important, and this was in my training, I remember when I was in intern saying to my supervisor, "Are they going to feel like I'm not qualified given the fact that I haven't gotten, you know, I haven't had OCD?" And he always said, "You don't need someone to have had delivered their own baby for them to deliver your baby." Like, you know, it's more about your training and your expertise and your qualifications and so forth. At the end of the day, though, and this is where I just like call it, what it is, is all of the research shows that if you're using evidence-based treatment, the connection between the client and the therapist is a true factor of how successful it will be. It doesn't have to even be that they agree on all things. It doesn't even have to be that that is the best therapist in the whole county. As long as you have that rapport and trust together, you guys can do the work. And so for me, it's my expertise. Yes, fantastic. My training, yes, fantastic. Do I use evidence-based treatment? Yes, fantastic. But at the end of the day, it's about, do I have the capacity just to sit across from you and be like, "Yeah, tell me. Tell me what that's like." I don't need to have a CD to get you. It's more about me listening to you anyway. I think that last part of what you just said is so key because it's not necessarily just knowing innately what that person is feeling. It's having the capacity and space to validate that and to even see that that person is suffering and to hold that suffering with understanding and care rather than likely what the sufferer is fearing, which is judgment or invalidation or being told that they're actually just a horrible person for having this thought. So I think you hit the nail on the head so perfectly with that. And I mean, I think that goes for, like, you have the lived experience of deep humans suffering via a diagnosis and other lived experiences because that's just life. But I think even a clinician without a diagnosis, you know, in quotes, like because what a spectrum of suffering that exists. I mean, it's just about that skill and that capability of holding that space. So thank you for touching on that because I just wonder how many people might open their minds to seeing someone not in a convincing way, but just open their minds to, you know, it's already not that accessible to get evidence-based care to begin with, but then to narrow it further to people that, you know, specifically openly say they have OCD. Like, who even knows? Some people might not be disclosing because they're not comfortable. They might actually have lived experience. Like, I always sit and wonder in my, as a patient, thinking about professional and I'm not going to ask them because it's not my business. But thank you for sharing that because that is so, so important. Well, and I think too, I'll add, I had an eating disorder, but that doesn't mean I truly get every single human being who's had an eating disorder. You know what I mean? I still have to stop and be like, tell me a little bit about what was like for you because it might not have been like that for me. And I still have to do a lot of learning about their experience. I know a lot of clinicians, a lot of my closest friends are clinicians with OCD because that's the field I mean. And they'll say, I still have to stop and ask clients like, what is it like for you? Because I didn't have that subtype or I'm not, you know, I'm not dealing with the same set of symptoms that you are. You know, so I think there's so many pieces that still need to be slowed down with curiosity anyway. You keep saying you're not a writer and I'm like, you could just take half of things you say and write it down and it'd be just like the most beautiful quote. Anyway, I also want to ask you about something that I think you've been talking about more recently that really caught my eye because I live with several chronic illnesses, my threatening illnesses. I'm a Spoonie and I've started to just hear about your experience with chronic illness and how you're navigating that. And so whatever you're comfortable sharing, I'd love to hold space for that part of your life and experience too. Yeah. So in 2018, I was like caught in some workaholic behaviors. I tend to rely on work as a coping mechanism. It's not a helpful coping mechanism. It can be, but in many cases for me, no. And I was working my butt off and started to feel these symptoms that were really odd, ignored them because I was, you know, that was my coping mechanism at the time. Working my butt off to very young children, a husband who was gone a lot, you know, and over those months and years now, took me forever to get a diagnosis that I actually all my life have had a diagnosis called postural orthostatic tachycardic syndrome. I had so much shame about this to start with, which is, you know, a part of the reason why it took me so long to ask for help was because I had over identified as being tough, strong, not weak, you know, I don't, nothing will stop me. It was, there was so many, I always sort of say like, I recovered from my eating disorder, but there were themes that just kept flowing over that would, were never really addressed. It's like an onion, you just peel off layers and there's often another layer underneath. I was finally, thank goodness, diagnosed with pots, it's short, that's an acronym for Postural Orthostatic Tachycardic Syndrome. And I got to the point where I was so sick, I did a podcast episode about this basically where I couldn't, I couldn't even make dinner. Like I was that sick and was refusing to admit that I was that sick. I couldn't stand up, I couldn't take care of my children. And so the recognition of having a chronic illness was really rough for me, but was I believe one of the final like layers of acknowledging, you know, some leftover eating disorder behaviors that I wasn't really dealing with. And I have been forced to, I was forced to change my entire life. You're a Spoonie, I'm a Spoonie. Had to really change my expectations for myself. I had to say no a lot of times, I had to let a lot of people down. I had to completely recalibrate my life. And I'm grateful for it now. I really truly am, but it has been such a painful, humbling experience still to this day, even though I'm very well moving towards recovery in that area. It has just helped me to deeply understand disability in a way that I had been privileged not to even address. And so that's sort of my story. I hope that answers your question. So much. And I will 100% linked to that episode in the show notes too for anyone to listen. And thank you so much for sharing that with me. And what really comes to mind from what you said was you, I noticed this almost like maybe slight hesitation before you started saying like you do truly feel grateful for the experience and for what you've learned from that and how that has, you know, positively impacted you and allowed you to step further into overall recovery as a human and like create more boundaries and like, you know, let yourself have more space and time to not work from a place that was just so almost like pathological. And I think a lot of times, at least from my experience in the chronic illness, you know, cancer disability community, there's this narrative that people get very upset sometimes when someone says like, I feel so grateful for like when I got to learn or for this experience because of how it's changed me. And I think people interpret that kind of sentiment as, oh, well, like how dare you say that this is a good thing when this is so disabling and so debilitating and you know, this is the worst thing that's ever happened to me and you're just trying to make it good. You're, you know, toxically, positive, bypassing all of that, right? And I really just hearing you say that here really brought up in me this like allow it once again of the coexistence of the pain and suffering that comes from any illness or any experience, particularly this physical debilitating horrible experience that I don't think we'd wish on anyone. And as with most human experiences, we learn, we evolve, we grow, we have realizations. It shifts and impacts our life. And oftentimes we can find a way that it does so in a positive moving forward way. And that doesn't take away from the pain and invalidate the pain and hearing your story and how much you've created meaning for yourself and how that relates to your, you know, your pain and your tendencies that you were experiencing. And that you, like you said, peeling back the layer more was just so beautiful. And I really wanted to highlight that for anyone listening because I know a lot of people here also have chronic illness and there's just this fears and times of like even venturing into the discussion of what we get from that experience, you know. Yeah, and let me also just add here is I understand I have a lot of patients who have chronic illness or disability. And I do recognize just my ability to have a diagnosis as a privilege. You know, there are lots of folks out there with chronic illnesses and all the doctors are shrugging saying I have no idea. And so for them, they're a stage to chronic illness and disability in my mind. That's not scientific, that's just my experience. Of, you know, one of the first stages is actually getting the diagnosis and I'm so, some people don't even get that. Depending on the diagnosis, that's it as well. I was lucky in that, well, I was unlucky. I have to also acknowledge I got pots before COVID, which is before. Now, a lot of people know about pots because of COVID and long COVID, that is now we have millions of dollars of research going into pots since COVID, but when I got it, the majority of doctors didn't even know what that meant. In fact, I had three cardiologists and to have pots, you get diagnosed by a cardiologist and I had three who had never heard of it. But now it's like, you know, it's written about and it's published about much more. So I think that there are so many layers to this understanding. Mine is just because of the lock and the privilege of getting that diagnosis finally and having access to health care. And I can totally, I want to acknowledge my complete privilege there because there, you know, what I will say is for anyone who does, I say this to everybody is the only reason I say that I am grateful is because of a book that I read called How to Be Sick. It is that book literally changed my life, not even because of the chronic illness piece, but it taught me core concepts of how to be a human in pain. And we all have pain, you know. And so for me, that was a gift in and of itself to have, again, this next layer of like, "Oh, I'm a human with pain. How can I hold space for pain in a way that's not crappy anymore?" And so for anyone who has a chronic illness, I highly recommend that book. I'm absolutely going to link that in the show notes and I can't believe I haven't read that because how to be sick, my gosh, my whole life. I need that, but I, it was so good. And thank you for just acknowledging that piece of the hardship of even getting a diagnosis due to access, due to invalidation. And then from there, it's like so many stages of grief, acceptance, like yes, it's great to have a label and a validation of what you're going through, but then what? It's like what does the reality even look like? What does treatment look like? There's so much nuance, especially with chronic illness and, you know, there's recovery, there's also living with aspects of it for life, there's relapses, there's. flares and it's just such a complex experience to hold yourself through and to show self-compassion to yourself as per usual. I actually, I'm very. this just came to mind and this is, sorry, I'm going to get a little nerdy, but there's like a lot of research, you know, from especially neurobiological sides of things, of like the feed forward. I mean, conceptually, there's this idea that if our body is creating or we're perceiving symptoms of anxiety that we correlate to anxiety, at least with like, you know, many of the things that to my knowledge come with pots, with, you know, heart rate, with breathing, with just the whole body experience. And sometimes we experience that and then our brain thinks therefore there's something wrong and there's, you know, it induces feelings of anxiety. As a result of responding to the physical indications of a threat or of safety. And so even to where there's these really, really groundbreaking papers of like this feedback, feed forward mechanism of turning on like heart neurons with lights and then seeing the physical responses behaviorally from mice. And just seeing that circuit being so prevalent in people are in animals. Anyway, I guess my question for you is with your experience of anxiety, did that. was that affected at all with pots? I mean, of course, it's kind of a dumb question because like anxiety about having a chronic illness itself is probably a thing. It's not a dumb question at all. It's so important. It's so important. Getting like induced by your symptoms. Did you feel any correlation at all? Oh, it's not a dumb question at all. In fact, it's like the money is on that question. I almost exactly a year ago was I mean, again, I'm very lucky I can tolerate the medication for parts. I have doctors. I was starting to really get in recovery. And then almost exactly a year I had been traveling for the summer and came back to the United States. And I started to have these crazy panic attacks. And I couldn't figure out like I'm seriously not that stressed. And I don't know why I'm having panic attacks. And I'm an OCD therapist. And so I'm like doing these little functional analysis like am I doing compulsions that I don't even know I'm doing and am I making this worse? And it really came down to me sort of constantly battling like is this my anxiety or is this my thoughts? Like and as a trained clinician who is like exceptional at weeding out the differences. I couldn't figure that one out. And it was so confusing. And I would went back to the doctor and had like a million tests again. And I think that that is the hard piece of this work, especially with chronic illnesses. So many chronic illnesses look a little like anxiety. And there are so many doctors who say you're just stressed like his medicine or you need to go to a therapist and handle your anxiety. And we're missing the medical piece vice versa. Some people are saying no this is just this medical issue. And they're completely missing that the majority of people with a chronic illness have secondary depression and anxiety. Because living with a chronic illness sucks and you know hopefully I'm allowed to say that. So I think it's so important that we acknowledge this chicken and egg situation right and having a good assessment with a good trained anxiety specialist so that we can be working it out. What I have found to be true. And this is not true for everyone of course is what I've found to be true is it's often both. You know you often will have a medical issue that you should get checked out. And you're having anxiety about it because having medical issues is incredibly anxiety provoking. And in still to this day I still have to slow myself down and be like okay put your wise hat on Kimbouli and really do an inventory. What is what here? And it's taken me some time to get used to doing that. You just conceptualize that so beautifully and what comes to mind is for me and one of the many illnesses I've had I was undiagnosed with Hashimoto's their diroditis for a long time until oddly enough getting thyroid cancer and then them figuring it out after the fact. But they realize that I had such treatment refractory severe severe debilitating depression and anxiety. And of course there's so many contributing factors that go into that but one part was simply that I didn't have proper thyroid hormone in my body for like a very long time. And even oddly enough this is one of those one of the benefits or ways that illness actually you know I got benefit from the treatment was from removing my thyroid. I then have to now like live on a very high regimen of full thyroid medication because I don't have a thyroid anymore. And in that for the first time in my life I have a normal amount of thyroid in my body. And so the amount that simply contributed to my mental illness and my experience simply from a physiological like hormone standpoint that medications and treatment were not intervening with. That I mean it definitely didn't fix all of it and there's definitely a lot more to go but at least like compensated for the level that that physiological contributor was happening and there's so oftentimes is disconnect between talking to different clinicians and doctors and the contributing factors that come together and something that's just so missing. And so there's so many examples of that I find in people and it's so important and you're right it's probably both and more. And just allowing space to bring that all together which again requires so much immense amounts of privilege and also just a concept that's really hard for my brain to still wrap its head around of like. People who are that sick having to advocate for themselves and find the resources to be able to even seek out treatment and have the executive function and energy and capability to go. Advocate for themselves and and find the right people and do it over and over and over again when they're the ones who are so sick and usually people that are like the least capable of doing so or at least the least resource to so there's so much compassion in that and that's a huge reason why I wanted to ask you about your story because I don't think it's talked about enough and you're a human being that I think many people interpret as you know you're doing so many things and you're always on and you're so incredible and successful and it's like there's. Amidst all of that there's also like the human living her life with you know your own experiences in your own conditions and your own. Pain and disability so so thank you so much for sharing that part of yourself to. Yeah it's my pleasure. put helps. Yeah, it was not fun. It's, but again, like you were saying, like the, it was so much pain in me saying having to say no to like shut my whole life down so I can actually get the help I needed. And I'm so grateful I learned that skill because now I use it every day and it makes it so much easier to function. But that was not a fun period of my life. Yeah. That, you know, that actually leads me to the next question I have for you about just as a human who does so many things and is in service of so many people and, you know, I know and feel your heart. With that, how do you navigate life? Like how do you navigate any semblance of balance or boundaries or like what's your ethos behind that? And you have kids and like a whole life outside. Yeah, how do you, how do you live? I go through seasons if I'm going to be really honest. There are seasons where I'm in full balance. There are seasons when I am not. And I think I've actually come to accept that instead of beating myself up and being like, but I'm a therapist. I'm supposed to be always in the season of balance. It's like, no, I don't think that's actually human. I, it's a, all I can say. And I, and I hope this is actually help for other people too is even if you're, you're struggling with a mental health issue or whatever it may be is, it is, there are seasons. I really believe in seasons. And I believe that sometimes we get stuck in this idea that it's supposed to be linear. And there's just this one way was supposed to be and was supposed to stay in balance and was supposed to stay happy and was supposed to, and I don't know if I agree with that given the complexity of human being. So for me, it's, it's mostly just wisdom. So, you know, right now I just got back from a month long trip with my family. And I am ready for this season to be messy because it always is after summer, my kids have been off and I've been, you know, working from an international country. I know this season that I'm about to move in is going to be messy and I'm going to, I'm out of balance. The cool thing is now is I just go, okay, we're out of balance. Like what do you need? What do you need right now? And it's sort of more of like, let, let you let some people down and you'll apologize and you'll be as best as you can be. But this is going to be a rocky season. And then I'll move into another season. I don't know what it will be, but I'll adjust when I get there. So it's sort of that is sort of how I've managed. The same is like you said, if I'm lapsed with pots, it's so devastating because I have to sort of go back to ground one and start again and start my, these crazy exercise routines again. And you do literally start back at square, not square one, but maybe square two. So it's like, it's sort of that yourself cry, let yourself be just, you know, disappointed and then ask yourself, what do you need and then adjust as needed? So that's sort of how I keep the balance. I kind of don't have one. It's the more of a where am I today kind of method. And with being someone who cares so deeply and who feels so deeply and I'm sure that is feeling your own feelings, but also everyone around you, the people you love most, the people who you're in service of, how do you navigate boundaries and, you know, your bandwidth and who to say what to say, yes, and no to and just all of that because yeah, yeah, that's hard. Well, so I am not a feeler. I'm a, I'm a, this is contradictory. I am a deep feeler. I have all the emotions all the time. And I hate feeling my feelings is what I really should say. The thing that every therapist I've ever had says repetitively to me is like, well, you're going to have to have your feelings about that. And I'm always like, no, I don't want to. Surely there has to be another way. I have learned and I'm learning to have my feelings about things and let other people have their feelings about me as someone who's, you know, public and I try to help a lot of people, people have their feelings about me. And it's not always positive. I have to say no often when I was recovering from pots in the early stages, I literally had to shut my entire life down. Like actually, you know, I, I said I resigned from every position I was on. I, you know, I had to say stop clients, all the things. And I had to practice letting them have their feelings about that. And then holding space for myself while I let them have their feelings about me. So, so that's sort of, to be honest again, why I do say that I'm grateful for my life exploding at that period of time because nothing would have forced me to do that. I would never have done that work had I not had to. And so yeah, it's a lot of just letting them have feelings about me. And then I let myself have their feelings about me and have my feelings about it. It's not fun. It's not easy. I'm not great at it. I'm getting better. But that's it. That's why I feel called, I felt called to ask you that question because I can, I can see that you're someone who walks the walk and also that it's not easy. And you'll be honest about that. But also that really, that really helped me because I, I mean, I guess the way you phrased it with the writer and speaker that you are is just the way of like, you're, it's okay to bait. They can feel what they feel and then you're allowed to feel what you feel. And that's okay. Rather than making, you know, making them feel okay or making you feel okay, it's like, no, the feelings are okay. That's just such a beautiful, poignant way of saying that. Do you, how do you navigate your life and the way you show up in the world with having your family and, you know, whatever you're willing to share in terms of your kids and, you know, having a family and kind of those boundaries of having space and presence with them, but also just showing up in the 50 million ways that you do. What is that like right? Yeah. And sorry if you asked me that similar question before. I, okay, so when I was diagnosed with pots, I had to, once I had gotten the diagnosis and was studying the treatment, I started to come back into the world, right? Like I started to be able to show up a little more. And I did a lot of research around time management. A lot of time management is really like punchy and like, optimize your time. And I was like, that's literally what I was doing that got me so sick. So like, I can't do that anymore. And so I actually learned all of the, you read all these books and sort of put it together for my own. I actually made a whole course on this, which is, it's a very small course. But basically it's how to optimize your time with mental health, being the priority, because that's how I had to do it. And nobody talks about it. It's always like, how can you be more prier, like all of the time management courses I took were like, while you microwave stuff, use it as a small bad of time to clean your kitchen. And I'm like, that's literally the opposite of what I need. That's the most not mindful action. So what I do in a nutshell, I do have a course on this, but I'll tell you because I think it's awesome is I time block. I love time blocking, but I time block rest first. That was key for me. Sleep was first as well. And pleasure was first. So all my scheduling, again, I'm out of balance right now. I'm going to be completely honest. It'll probably take me a month to get back on to a schedule. So I'm trying to be real, but that's what I'll be doing today. I just I just I told you I've just flown in from yesterday today will be like, how can I reprioritize things back to like, and again, that doesn't mean I'm like having bubble baths for two hours either. It means, you know, I have children, I have two businesses. It will be, you know, really being effective about what is the most restorative thing I can do, even if it's not fun. A bath for two hours would be great, but what is actually restorative for me? What is actually effective for me? And just I time block and so that's sort of how I do it. And I also let people down. And sometimes that's me and sometimes it's my kid, sometimes it's my husband, sometimes it's my online community, but I try to be as honest as I can an apologetic when I do. I can't believe I still can't believe that after all of your travel and your cancelled flights that you still came today and you're on the show. Like that's just thank you and also my gosh. I do hope you also get a two hour bubble bath like at night or something if you can't sleep or some if you're time lagged or anything like that. And I think that also just I what I really want to just bring forth from you is your you lit up when you talked about visiting. I think it's Australia with seeing your family and that's where you were born. That's where you were raised. I think hearing you gives that away, but I also just wanted to put a name to it and just like create the space to to talk about like that. I wonder how hard that is to have your family and to be here in America with your beautiful family and then also have your family there and just, you know, I think an example of you creating balance in your life is taking the time to actively visit your family and to go and to be present with your kids. But yeah, I just wanted to create the space for you to share anything that comes up about just navigating being, you know, bicultural, I suppose, or across the world for people you love. Yeah. It's, I'm going to be completely honest. It's, it's so painful. It's all I'm going to say. I, I, I, I'm still working this piece of my life out. You know, you have these ideas that your life, you're like, make all these right decisions and you'll, you know, picket fences and all the things and I'm so grateful for everything I have. Truly I am. But that doesn't discount the, you know, and I don't hear a lot of people talking about this. Is having your heart in two places, you know, it's this constant grief process. And I have to be really careful that my anxiety doesn't take that grief and run with it because I can get stuck on, did I make the right choice? Right? Did I make the right decision for my family, for me, for the safety of my children, for my parents? So it's a, it's an ongoing thing. I've, I think this is the first time this trip is the first time where I've really acknowledged that I have to accept that being a part of my life, not in a way of like, I have to suck it up, but just let's just allow it to be there. Because it's really, really hard. I, I have so much love for my country and so much love for my family and yet I still live in America with this family that I love. So, you know, it's messy again. I'm going to be holding a lot of space this week for a lot of sadness. I've had lots of tears in the last 72 hours. I'll just keep practicing what I do again and take, take time. But yeah, it's no fun, no fun at all. I didn't know why I felt called to ask you that and now I know why it's because of exactly what you shared and that toggle of grief and anxiety and your very, very real experience right now. So thank you for letting us hold and witness you through that, especially because you literally just flew in. So I know there's so much integration and you're also just the most shining example of again, walking the walk and, you know, sharing real life examples of how these concepts and the human experience plays out for you and how even being a therapist like you still struggle and you still have these to navigate as a human and just humanizing yourself through everything you do. And my gosh, before we close, I, because I have 50 million more questions, so I'm definitely going to be bothered. You're 10 in the distant future because boundaries for you, Kimberly. But I, but I have some questions I want to ask you just to close this out and to come back to you as a human. And so number one, what are three surprising things that people would not know or readily guess about you? They can be experiences, traits, interests, just random things that come to mind. Three things people don't know about me. I know that's hard because like you share so much of yourself. I mean, like your favorite types of shoes. Your favorite shoes. I don't know. You have weird, subtle socks. I'm left handed and double jointed. That's my potty trick right there. Something else people don't know about me. It's a hard one. Let me think. Okay, so I am left handed. I am double jointed. I am, I am a desperate creative. I actually, you know, I think there's a whole creative piece of my work that I haven't yet gotten to, which I think will be, you know, coming out later as I get to it. I think that, you know, I think people know this about me, but I don't think they truly understand is like how, you know, I think I am a smiley happy person, right? But I think I've totally tried to get this across. Be careful of the smiley happy people. They're hurting, you know? And so I think that that's where I would, you know, often have these conversations with people online about, you know, the people in social media who look happy and they've got all the things and they've got the checklist. You know, I think it's important to remember they're so human. Hopefully I got that across today. But that I'm messy. I'm just a messy human being. And I know people know that because it probably has been said in this episode, but I just want people to deeply like land on that because I think our comparison meter goes up high on social media and we forget behind the smile and the ease. It might not actually be that, you know, that be all easy. And full circle, when I had first started the episode and called you Sunshine in Human Forum and particularly made the point that it doesn't mean that you're, that means that you're, the expectation is that you're positive and happy and smiling and like only radiating good vibes all the time. It's the fact that you are this person sharing the full spectrum of humanity. So thank you for bringing it back to that. Yeah. My next question is, I'm always curious, people answer this. What do you think came first? The chicken or the egg? The, it doesn't have to be one of those answers. It can be to your met your foot, it's an in the egg. This is where I'm going to practice my uncertainty. I have no idea. One thing I practice really working harder is saying I don't know when I don't know. I don't know this one. I'm totally out of my element. This is why I ask that question because everybody I've ever asked this question to, it's never an answer of the chicken or the egg. It's their take on how to deal with the complexity of that question. So uncertainty in a nutshell, I love that for you. I just tolerate the uncertainty on that one or acknowledge that we, you know, that I yet will never have the answer. It's exactly what I was looking for. What are your top guiding values in life? I have very strong values. One of them is hard work. Work ethic is one of my biggest core values. Again, has gotten me into trouble in my lifetime. But one that I hold so valuable. Honesty is another really big value of mine. I think that I try to walk that line as close as I can. The last one is just realness, reality, being humble. I live in Los Angeles where humble is not a common daily practice. So I'm constantly trying to teach my children how to be humble and live in integrity. So sort of they're my main ones. And then the last one, of course, is compassion. I'm not saying that as a buzzword, which is it's really the place that I have to land when everything doesn't go well. And so that's a huge piece of the work that I've had to learn as well. And I think anyone who hears your podcast works with you, talks to you, has the privilege of knowing you. We'll say that you live out those values. So beautifully. So thank you for being who you are. And my very final question for you is what is one thing you wish everyone knew or could hear? I commonly, if you know me, you'll hear me say this, which is one of my clients actually said it to me once and we kind of jammed it together, which is it's a beautiful day to do hard things. I'm always saying it. I wholly believe it. If I were to get a tattoo, I would get that tattooed onto my body. Because I think we've really romanticized that things should be easy and they're not. Sometimes they are and that's great. And they should be easy in some respects. But when they're hard, I think we have to walk into the difficulties, not run away. And I think that that is something. So that's really my message is like, let's walk into the hard stuff. Let's not walk away from it. So it's a beautiful day to do hard things. And if you need to hear that message over and over again, everyone, it's always through everything Kimberly does in the most beautiful ways through her podcast, which everything will be linked in the show notes, her podcast, her social media, her courses, her, it's just the ethos of all the way she shows up in the world. Of course, being a private practice therapist, just she is the real deal. She walks the walk. She is obviously you are one of the most beautiful human beings. You are truly sunshine and human form in the most full spectrum way. And I'm just So, so grateful for your time and for your you sharing yourself in so many capacities today on this episode and for you just being the generous kind loving human being you are. It's such an honor to have gotten to talk to you and to share this with people in the world. Thank you. Yeah, thank you for all the work you're doing. It's so awesome. It's an honor for me. My goodness y'all, I think you now know why I was gushing so much at the beginning of this episode. It was truly just such a beautiful, full spectrum conversation about the human condition and existing from someone who is just so poignant and generous in the way that she shares herself and her knowledge, her expertise and truly what a ray of sunshine, sunshine and human form in every way on the surface. So thank you so much, Kimberly, for your time and generosity and sharing yourself in this way. I cannot wait to have you back on the show to talk about so many more things that could not fit into this conversation and for everybody listening, I hope that you come away with more true self-compassion for yourself or at least building forth on that path because I know I am too. So thank you so much for tuning in and for listening to this amazing conversation with this exceptional human being with Kimberly and y'all, if you loved this episode, then please take five seconds to support the show and support me by number one, subscribing to the podcast wherever you're listening to it right now. Just hit that subscribe button so that you are the first person to receive episodes as soon as they come out and also while you're there, if you could just take five more seconds and leave a rating and review hopefully a five-star rating so that you can really share with people who are coming to the show why you are supported by it, why you enjoy the show and that way the show feels more accessible and more of a safe space for anyone who wants to join in on these conversations and just join this community with all of us and co-creating this space of vulnerability, curiosity, and openness, and compassion in its true form. So thank you so much for subscribing, leaving a five-star rating and review and if you love this episode, then please go ahead and share this episode with anyone who you think would benefit from this conversation, any of the topics that we're talking about, disability, OCD, chronic illness, anxiety, self-compassion, all of the things and if you could share this on social media as well, it would mean the world to me and above all, thank you for giving me your time and hanging out with me on this show for all of these episodes. I'm so excited to bring you so many more conversations just like this and I hope you have the most beautiful week. I'm so excited to see you next week on another episode of a chat with you.