The true meaning of cultural relevance

[Music] Welcome to the Warp Podcast. My name is David Tilman and today we are talking about culture and how marketers can make their brands more culturally relevant. Culture is one of those words that gets used everywhere in marketing. But a bit like the words brand or insight. It's a word we often use without really defining what it is we mean. And even if we can define culture, what does it actually mean for a brand to be culture led or quote unquote in culture? Does an engagement with culture lead to greater impact? And in an age of fragmentation, micro influences and the creator economy are the rules changing? Well, here to help us unpack all of that is Laila Fattar, strategic advisor and founder of Culture Brandling Studio Platform 13. Now Laila's 30-year career has included founding two independent companies plus spells that added us in the adgeo where she had a brief to bring culture into the marketing department. Last year she authored a book, Culture Led Brands Distilling All That She Has Learned. So in this podcast we're going to ask Laila what works, what doesn't, and how other brands can separate hype from genuine opportunity. We'll get into all of that in a moment, but first a word from our sponsors. If you're listening to this podcast, you'll know that walk is the home of leading effectiveness thinking. And now we're teaching you everything you need to know about the fundamentals of strategy. Walk strategy fundamentals as walks new digital course for junior or intruly book strategists. You'll learn from award-winning case studies and here directly from top strategists and walks own experts, giving you the latest industry insights alongside proven practical frameworks. Shapping up your skills to excel in 2026 with walk strategy fundamentals. Available now at walk.com/learning. So Laila, welcome to the walk podcast. Thank you. I'm looking forward to this. I talked about your background at a platform for the team, the ad geo I did as an elsewhere and now of course you're an author, you've produced the book, Culture Led Brands. Just give us a bit of an overview of what led you to writing that book and and what people who don't know you should know about you. Yeah, so I've got no real formal education in what I do. Everything that I've done over the last 30 years is lived experience. And I'm happy to say that I learned that from my early interest cultures of rave culture. Rave culture. That dates you. That dates you. That is I'm from the thing, right? So we had to do quite new, derilla style ways of communicating back in the day before the internet. And that's my training round, guerrilla marketing or guerrilla communications, rave culture, the ability to communicate, an incredible network of creatives, visionaries, dreamers. We all met on the dance floor. Yeah. There was no exclusivity, you know, very early sort of 90s time. So actually a lot of this is where my background comes from. So I see the world through these culture stacks that I talk about in the book actually, and I will talk about that more from there. So that's really where it comes from. And I know that feels quite far away from where we are now or what is needed for where it is, but that's the foundations. And with that comes many things. It comes a way to be quite opportunistic about what's happening in the world, a way to read and analyze what's happening in the world and understand the nuances and context behind these things. It helps me and has helped me break traditional formulas in house. Having my own businesses has helped me understand business strategies and how they can be flexed and changed and shifted from sort of rigid processes into sort of adaptive ecosystem. And those are the things that when I think about the output, whether it was through my own companies or even at Adidas with the really sustained Smith, the release of superstar, which was a huge the shelter that you would know. You know, incredible projects that I had to work on, but I came with this different perspective into these fairly traditional ways of doing things. And together we kind of shifted things forward and created newness in marketing but also in processes inside the businesses because you have to change, you know, you can't sort of have a different outcome without changing the input. You had your own agency and then you moved into the teams at Adidas and then the Adcio. Just talking a little bit about what those companies were trying to bring into, as you say, large, established marketing teams. My remit at Adidas was make Adidas originals the sportswear brand of the street globally. That's a big, big ambition. It is a big ambition, but it's an ambition that I felt quite comfortable in. That's my area of play, you know. And then at Diagio, you know, was headhunted as well. And my remit, again, was incredible. It was like disrupt the industry, disrupt the category, disrupt this business. I was like, okay, I don't know much about alcohol, but you know, we created the first cultural entertainment department for Diagio and I worked across this incredible portfolio of brands. And I was on the leadership team as well. So for me, that business acumen really started punching in at that point. I was able to sort of bring these two worlds together. And then while I was there, I guess I identified a gap in the market. With big brands, audiences, that shift that was happening again, that big brands weren't, you know, addressing. And so I created Platform 13, which is a completely new way of working with big brands. And I am happy to say that I've worked with everyone from Adidas and Diagio, of course, who understood how I worked and understood the outcomes. But also brands like Lego, brands like, you know, Jagger and Rover, brands like Bumble and Pinterest, blah, blah. So it's been an incredible eight years so far. We'll platform 13, but 2026, something news coming. Oh, okay. You might talk about that in a minute. So yeah, let's see. All right, okay. I'll come back to that and see if I'm going to exclusive out you at the end. Okay, so I started off by saying how often we use the term culture in this industry without actually having much of a definition for it. It's just a sort of, it's sort of like you kind of know what we talk about, but we don't really have defined it. Do you have a definition? Do you have a way of thinking about culture and what it is that that that might help people sort of understand a bit better? Yeah, and it's frustrating. You can imagine because you know, with any buzzword in our industry, it gets co-opted and sometimes misunderstood. And sometimes that becomes something you don't want to talk about again, which is frustrating because culture is the stuff of life. And if you start there, you really understand how impactful culture is because it's everything. It's what we listen to. So it's what we see. It's what influences us. And those things that influence us or politics is technology. You know, it's the environment. Culture is the stuff of life. It's the thing that makes everything important. And I share the culture stack, which is something in my book that's really new. And I'll explain why this is important. So for me, the culture stack is made up of actually three parts of culture. The foundation one that we all have is what I call inherited culture. Where you're from, where you're born, and all the codes and things that happen with that. So for me, I'm born and raised in a part eight South Africa. My family is Muslim, but I am mixed race and comes with all these other things. That's my foundation. So for me, anything around discrimination really hits hard for me. That's the lens I see the world through. And you can think about what yours everyone has it. Everyone has it in the world. Stacking on top of that, and it's not an intersection, it stacks, is as you get a bit older, your interest cultures start coming into play. So for me, rave culture, fashion, music, art, blah. And this multiple of those cultures, and it stacks on top of your interest culture. So you see those things still through your foundation. So for me, when I look at music, and I think about Kendrick Lamar, he talks and his music reflects his foundational interest culture. The interest culture also includes things like your sexuality or the fact that you've got green eyes or that you're neurodiverse. These are things you can't select for yourself. They're inherited, where the interest cultures are selected. On top of that, as you get to working age, company culture sits on top of that. That's you're not selecting anything then. It's not even in Harry. No, that's pushed off of me. someone selecting it but they are creating those decisions through their personal culture stack. I'm looking at my work through the way I do things and I'm working for brands that is feeling like I can be part of that company but the decisions made at that level by senior leadership which cascades through businesses is made through their culture stacks. So, culture is the stuff of life and so you have the culture stacks that's everyone, people. What happens in the world, the decisions made by other people in leadership impacts us all. Something happens in politics, it impacts people's culture stacks. Through it could be music in one country is different to that same music in a different country through the lenses of that inherited culture. Once you see it you can't unsee it and it probably sounds quite complex as I'm saying but it's actually quite a simple framework. And that's a framework, that's a framework that you can see is very relevant for an individual to think about there, the way they exist in the world, as you say, the stuff of life. So, how does it connect? Yes, how does it connect exactly? People see your brands through their culture stack. Okay, so the way they experience and understand your brand is whether they want to work for you, whether they want to buy you, whether they want to advocate for you, defend you, they will do that through their culture stack. And decisions are made through a business, through the CEO or the C-suite's culture stacks. And so that's how it connects to what we're talking about here. So, for a brand to not only organizationally work well in this time of uncertainty and complexity where people are really really connected to their culture stacks and consumers or employees or any of your audiences that you want to engage with your brand, brands need to understand how that culture stack works for them. And why it's important. So, someone from the LGBTQIA+ community is going to look at a brand and that will probably be one of the deciding factors on the perception of that brand. The fact that the fact that that brand does whatever or has some values or whatever might be that it doesn't have to be so like it's a to be. But there is this perception. It's a filter, right? It's a filter. It's a filter. I love that. The same with if your CEO is from the LGBTQIA+ community, policies inside the business, if they feel away about it is going to like make sure that those issues are impacted positively or whatever it is. So, you can see how it makes a difference on whether a brand or business is seen in the world in a way that is connected to value systems. And that's really what the culture stack is about. Give us some examples of brands that you've seen succeed by understanding these connections and lean into them. So, I think I'd like to use examples that I've worked on because I know them inside out and they were created with that way of thinking. So, hopefully that's helpful. So, Guinness is one of those brands, both when I was inside Diagio, responsible for again embedding that brand into culture, in culture. But of course for me, understanding a bit more and when deeper than simply the demographics of selling to people was understanding the communities that this brand is important to. I think Guinness is actually a fascinating example because for those people who are not familiar with the drink, who would that be? Who would that be? I don't know. It's a style brand. But growing up in the UK, Guinness was, you know, when I was growing up, an old man's drink. But as I've learned more about the drink over the years, it has evolved the way it operates in markets like the UK and Europe. But then it also has this fascinating alternate reality in markets like African markets, for example, where it has a completely different role in culture. So, talk to me a little bit about the work you did within Guinness, what you've seen there. It's such a fascinating example. It is. And I use that example because I know that people know the brand and love the brand or have, you know, understand that brand as one of those legacy brands that had that issue around old man, you know, drink. So to your point, when I started at Diagio and I love an archive, by the way, that's like my favorite place to be for any brand because there's so many hit stories that can be pulled out from there anyway. When's the archive? And I knew this because I know people in culture that actually Guinness is as much a African and Caribbean brand as an Irish brand because it has been exported there since the 1820s. 1820s. It's an imperial brand in some way. It's an imperial brand, right? So what was interesting was don't forget that even, you know, going over 1820, it's so part of those cultures. That's why there's exactly what you said in Africa. It's a huge part of the culture. In Jamaica, it's a huge part of the culture. The brand itself, very focused on pub culture. Of course, that's the icon, you know, with the, you know, the draft, obviously, and also Irish culture. Of course, that's where the roots are. So for me from a growth point of view, where I wanted to shift away from, not away from, but to include other people outside that traditional old man that we talked about. What was the way that I could do that credibly? What was the way that I could do that that made sense that gave me a lot of what I call sort of a brand IP, which is the thing that only that brand can do. And I do that through this other system called a cultural positioning, right? Was to identify what was who those audiences were, and I knew that had to be African Caribbean people, but also remember that there's a big diaspora in the world. They're African and Caribbean people everywhere in the world. So it's not just based in that, that sort of inherited culture is not only based in the country. It's based globally. So then I was like, what is the biggest place where Guinness can show up and actually have a role to play carnival, right? It is absolutely the place in the UK. I'm just talking about this as a, as a quick example, where Guinness can play a role and actually as a brand who at the time, Strapline was made of more, gave me such a rich sort of breadth of storytelling around the people who have created Carnival in England because of, you know, the fact that there was Wundrush and the shift over. So this is big diaspora, but obviously it's also now become such a part of London culture that it really mixes all the things that Guinness is actually about. And even in that research, when we were doing that, so that was one of the projects that I did just in terms of activating and making sure that Guinness was seen by the Caribbean culture as a brand that knows they were there and have been there forever. So it's about recognizing, recognizing that what I call latent audiences, and that's a growth opportunity, right? Which is different to sometimes the business strategy, which is very, very focused on, I guess, the things that you might know in an obvious way. So that different perspective enables you to see potential growth opportunities, but it was really in 2020 where it really switched up. So by then I'd already been in platform 13, continued advising and working with Guinness. It's one of my favorite brands. And I was asked by the then brand director Anna McDonald, who wasn't the leadership team with me, which is at Diagio, to create a cultural strategy for Guinness because pubs were closing. So that pub icon was a really big issue. Obviously 2020 came with Black Lives Matter. And the need for understanding heritage and a really big shift in what people were identifying with and it becoming a much wider conversation. And knowing that that was something that needed intentional thought about how to do that. And so we created this cultural strategy to bring vibrancy to this incredible brand, but also give them an opportunity to get to the next phase in a world where pubs wouldn't what they are. So again, all of that comes in the culture stack, by the way, because the culture stack is around inherited cultures of African cultures, Caribbean cultures. The interest cultures may have been fashion music drinks. It's all connected, but the impacts that were happening in the world politically, technologically societal was imminent. impacting those bottom culture stecks, but so I had to create activity strategies that understood what that brand, the role of that brand within this new world could be. - Interesting. One thing you said there is I think it's really interesting. I just want to pick up on it. It seems particularly relevant in the kind of, I want to say, in many categories, low growth markets that we now have, which is using this kind of analysis as a way to identify maybe less obvious sources of growth. - Of course. - And I think because so much of the sort of effective in this conversation is often around big scale. You know what, and being quite disciplined on the big and the core markets, identifying your sort of core business core markets. Does is it a danger that this becomes a sort of thing on the side, or does this have to be sort of, you know, a commitment, a company is making to find alternative sources of growth, 'cause maybe the core is shrinking or flat. - So I'll introduce you to another framework that's connected. It's called the Cultural Pipeline. And exactly what you're saying, right? So everyone works at scale. Big brands, they're like, we connect with culture when we can see it in big data, right? We connect with culture when it is the World Cup. - Yeah. - And I'm going, hmm, so you're connecting when everything's already mainstream because you want to sell product extractively in that moment of a culture. Actually the World Cup is one spike on a calendar in football culture, right? So to be able to, for the people within football, the culture of football, those people love this culture. Same as music, same as fashion, same as art, all the fandoms you talk about within that interest culture part of the stack is where brands have a really amazing role to play if they do it without extracting and instead come in at emerging, the emerging stage of the pipeline and add value there. So by the time they get to mainstream, they already part of shaped lead that culture because they already embedded in. And that can be both in interest cultures but also in new markets, inherited cultures. If we think about Africa, Latin America, India, that's where growth is going to be coming for this next sort of, I call it Q2 over the 21st century. - Yeah, the 21st century, yeah. - Yeah, the 21st century, that's what we got to call it. That's what's happening, right? Things are happening here. We are, as you said, in low growth markets in the West, it's an aging demographic in the West and believe me, I'm FF2 there's another huge opportunity with midlife and above being very different to what it ever was, that's incredibly exciting but actually innovation, youth, where are they sitting? They're sitting south in the global south, right? That's happening. So big brands are going, oh yeah, we wanna do this. Maybe you need to look at the emerging part of the pipeline as part of your ongoing business planning and go, yes, we need to do whatever we need to do in mainstream culture to sell product but the growth is gonna be if we can add value earlier on and that doesn't have to be 20 years out. We're talking a couple of years out in different places to be able to then move, so by the time it becomes mainstream, 'cause we can see it all happening, it's happening. So it's about reading and analyzing what's happening in the world and acting accordingly. But for that, you need a different type of way of thinking. You need a different way of decision making. You need a different way of reading the signals that insights. - Let's talk about that. I mean, how do you actually research that kind of, Coach, I mean, clearly, you have people who live and breathe it such as yourself but are they sort of good research techniques you can use? Is this about deep kind of qualitative, ethnographic kind of stuff or other things people can be looking to use? - I think it's a mix of different things but there's so many signals in the world identifying the signals relevant for your business and brand is key. And so, how many trend reports are we gonna see? - Well, a lot. - How many, got a lot, right? How many sort of inside documents are we gonna see? But is everything in there relevant to your brand and business? That's the intelligence bit. Where if you do, you know, and I call it sort of like one step deeper than the demographic and traditional insights, I call it cultural intelligence. Where you intersect data with nuance, context and ability to understand what's resonating in the world. And so, I think it's a mix of different things. I call it sort of real time intelligence which is what's happening online with your product and your brand right now. So, it's the reddits of the world, it's the ocean listening, et cetera. So, that's all fine. But then, quite quickly, you have to intersect that information with the culture and the communities and what their issues are and come up with something that's beyond just data. You gotta be able to read it and then act quite quickly on it. So, it might be, and I'm gonna use football again because this is a huge conversation for this year's sports is massive. I'm not talking about just the football players, I'm talking about the fans as well. So, there's a lot of conversation at the moment around corporate seats, right? And you know, could a brand or business instead of using those corporate seats for their buyers actually offer those over to people from the community of football, you know what I mean? Like that for me is a very simple, very simple and very basic way of going, what is the role, what is your role within this culture? Because big brands have a huge role in culture because they have both the ear of the industry and politics and politicians, but also of the masses. They have a huge role in how we all live, what influences us, the stuff of life that can actually make things much better. So, understanding what your role might be and acting accordingly is what I call a culture-led brand. It's a brand that understands the impacts of things happening the world politically, technologically, and within the media that's impacting the culture stecks of the audiences that they try to be part of. Outside of a traditional campaign. (laughs) So, this World Cup and this idea of football in the culture, the World Cup being a very important spike within the calendar, but what are you doing for the rest of the calendar? What are you doing for the rest of the pyramid of people outside just the ones that are gonna be at the World Cup? That's what a culture-led brand does and that's the emerging part that sits underneath the mainstream part of the pipeline that works. (upbeat music) - I just want to sort of conclude by looking at some of the, where you see the opportunities today being and also just run some of the sort of current buzzwords and catch phrases past you to see how you sort of think about them and you've already mentioned a couple of them. What's the difference between a fandom and a community? So, for me, cultures of sports music, of all the interest cultures are made up of a number of different things. One is the community of that culture. Okay, the community of that culture are the people or the things that is actually shifting that culture forward, right? Whereas the fans of it and those people in the community are also fans can pop in and pop out. They just love it for a bit. The fandoms are broader than communities. - The fandom is broader than communities. And for me, that's where, feeling about the World Cup as an example, you have the football community that loves football all year round. And you have the fans, which are gonna go and be engaged in the World Cup. - Right. - Aspectical. Now, they can intersect with each other. The communities will always be interested, but the fans can, you can also be, I mean, obviously if you're within the community, you're a fan as well. But there's also what I call the fans, which seem for me, or an easy way to kind of think about a gross selling opportunity. So you need to add value to the community and you can treat the fans of it as consumers because they bleed, the community bleeds into that. Do you understand what I mean? - That's a really nice, it's a really nice distinction. And you can see then where how you nurture the community. And then the fact the fandom gives you this sort of. - Damn it! You got it! - Yeah. - So you work with the community and their cultural voices who represent them in the emerging stage and you smash it out with the fans that it comes to mainstream popular culture, is that more helpful? - That's really helpful. That's really helpful. - And the cultural voices, because I think in the cultural voices of a community, are the ones who represent that community. They are different to influences who can probably be in the fan area because they're amplifiers. right right right right. They're not necessarily not actually part of the community there. They're not on the community. Yeah, they can be. Don't get me wrong. Obviously, but generally, people who are part of the community work within that business, that industry, that culture in some way, whereas an influencer, that's their job and they can go into different cultures. I think that there's a role for them, of course, but let's not confuse in communities with fandoms because there's different ways to reach both of those positively. Great. Next question, which is on the monoculture and whether we really have seen a decline of monoculture. You mentioned niche before, but does the rise of niche or horizontal? So I think you could mean the end of a sort of monoculture or we're just kidding ourselves that a monoculture ever really existed in the in the first place. So it depends on how you define monoculture, right? Because I feel like the cultures I'm talking about are the overarching. So this sports culture, right? Within sports culture, there are different types of sports and then going down another level, more specific type of interest depending on your cultist act, right? So for instance, football culture is within sports, but there's also tennis, basketball, any other sports, right? Going down from football, you then have different entry points, right? So those entry points are what I call the niches or what, what, you know, in the way I understand it. So I could enter to fashion, to football, to sports, or I could enter through my diaspora. So I am Nigerian in London and actually my interest is more around the fact that there's a player in that football that is Nigerian. That could be interesting. So those for me or what niches are, they still need to be understood and clarified and your role as a brand can be specific to that. But that can grow into the overarching structure. So for instance, Guinness has a huge credibility making it up in, I'm not making it up in Nigeria, right? Because of all the things we talked about in the beginning, potentially one of the things they could do within football culture is go, hey, we're going to do an activation that's really focused on African players. I don't know. Or we can go and activate a new Guinness product in Nigeria regarding football because you understand what I'm trying to say. So if you have this kind of spectrum of different types of niches, they're all still building into football, but they also then building into the sports culture. So it's really about understanding the role of your brand within these different parts. Because I think if you're trying to get everyone, not every brand needs to play in every single part of that culture, you have to play where you're credible. You have to play with extents. Or if you already don't have a historical connection, say Nigeria, Guinness, Afcon emerging market, sports culture for football, you can make yourself relevant by understanding what your brand or product can do for that and then engage that in a way that feels additive. That's interesting. It's just as there's particularly within what may we may have thought of quite monolithic structures like football. Actually, there were more ways than ever to actually get involved. And it's on a sort of single sponsor of the FA Cup or the Champions League or whatever. There's many more ways in than there might have been 20, 30 years ago. Absolutely, but there's also cross cultures, right? So then they cross. Because then you have food and drinks, fashion, Nigeria. And that's another way that you can activate your brand credibly. People talk about authenticity all day long. You own your authentic if you have a credible role. Yeah. The equivalent to what? Or else you don't authentic. And then no one's going to come for you. And if they do come for you, people are going to defend you. Because you're adding some value. You know what I'm trying to say, so a lot of this is not like rocket science. It's just new perspectives. It's just different perspectives, different ways of thinking about things. And I feel like that's really exciting. It's so exciting because it just means that you can really deliver your brand IP, the thing that only your brand can do. So then you get out of competitiveness. Then you move outside of your category. Because you don't have to then start only competing in price and cost and distribution. Then you become a culture led brand. Because that thing that only your brand or product service can do credibly. No one else can call who's who you're going to compete with. But you shift things forward positively. You know, and that's much needed, I think. Because we're really in a bit of a stop place at the moment. Final question. We've managed to get all the way through a marketing podcast without mentioning AI, which is a an achievement in itself. But let's talk about let's just let's talk about. There's so much so much. I need you see is this is not exclusively online. But so much of this lives or is amplified online now. AI obviously becoming a huge part of the online conversation, whether whether you believe in AI slop or not. Then where can you see this heading next in terms of the things, the sort of new tools that are coming into our lives allow us to do or allow brands to do and where are the maybe sort of dangers or things you might be concerned about. So obviously it's a very, very important question. And I do feel like there's a role for AI. I feel like you know when anything new comes in, there is a you know a big swing and into this is going to change everything. And this might be blah, blah, blah, especially our industry. I'm more concerned about generative AI as we've seen it at the moment because I feel like again, a little bit of a misunderstanding my point of view, having been pre internet and very and always fun early adopter of technology. I can see that social first, which people talk about quite a lot, for me is not about volume of social assets. It's about doing things in culture, activities, experiential in real life and online that people want to share on social. Okay? That means that you have to do amazing things that people care to share about. That for me means social first. So all your thinking is social first, not because you're creating more assets by using AI. It's about doing amazing things that people care to share now. Remember also social, there's a lot of questions around the decline of social. We know that people are moving off social. So you come to this point where to what all social is becoming more like an entertainment platform or I feel like it's becoming more of a broadcast advertising sponsored place. And so actually, I think I think the FT did a big piece of work around the fact that people are quietly moving off social, not for our industry because for us, that's an easy way to measure. That's a whole nother conversation. That's a different podcast. But the point is is that generative AI at the moment is being used for volume of social assets. And for me, there is again, a bit of a misunderstanding of what social first means because for me, that's not social first. And someone who has been on that social journey right from the beginning, we've always been about doing things that people want to share through whatever communication channel of that era is relevant. At the moment it's social, it wasn't before social and something new may be coming in. Gamers don't actually use social young gamers. They actually use their games as a way. Yeah, they communicate through the games. They communicate through other things, discord, other places where. And so you go, as we now again, what's the emerging things that are coming in? Where should you be investing? Yes, you should be investing, selling social. But where else should you start exploring now to be part of that? That's an emerging area I keep on talking about again. And I feel like we're asked within the industry as well that trend reports and the stuff we get from the platforms as well also impacts how we work and how we do things. So again, for marketing, like I feel like in a, you know, I see marketing directors who are incredibly talented in their capabilities, but are now forced to just do media bias. Is that the marketing function? I hope not. I think we need to change that for Q2 please David. We're trying. We're working on that. We just do something different, but it is, you know, things are shifting like that time in the early 90s when we started spin, when I started spin. We're again in that generational shift. And this is what I wanted to talk to you about. This new thing that I'm changing. Yes, you got to give us exclusive. Give us a video. I'm calling it the cultural reset because I feel like we're in this multi-generational shift. For the first time in a long, long, time we're going to have four or five different generations in the workplace. They all have different mindsets, different ways of working. You know, before the 20th century there was very much a specific type of leader, a specific type of person in corporate and that too it was now. In the workplace you have Gen Z mindsets all the way up to boom a leadership and everything in between and everyone is different in terms of the expectations for working environments, the expectations for you know how they engage with workplace or their exposure to technology. They're how native they are to different technologies or what they political way of thinking is within their generation. It's not about age by the way, it's a bad mindset, right? Not only that, we have that saved multi-generation in consumers, right? So then you also then have these newer emerging markets and I say that in brackets. Yeah, quotes because they're not emerging for me, their opportunities. What's happening with that? So now we've got multi-country, global north versus global south. What happens there? So we in this weird generation and at the same time we've got this political stuff and this AI piece coming in that we all know could be interesting but we're not sure how yet. It may not be the big shift that we think it is but that's how anything happens even early smart phones and stuff. You know, we have to experiment in those early places to see what it could be. So we're here now. In Q1, 21st century we are here. So what are we going to do for Q2? How are we going to change that differently? We have to change how people make decisions about what they do and they make decisions by having a different perspective on things. That's how you're going to be able to understand how to really, really sort of work within in these conditions of uncertainty. These conditions of complexity with multi-generations of workforce and consumers as well. How do you make decisions differently? And I call this the corporate algorithm. One of the things that really gets frustrating inside big businesses is how decisions are made, right? So what product are we going to do? Are we going to go down that road with that culture? How are we going to add value to that culture? What happens is because there was this way of doing things in the 20th century and it's still being done in that same way with the silos and the processes, how do you become an adaptable business in the 21st century? Where everything is different. It's up for grabs. It started with the pandemic. That's the first time we couldn't have processes that were built for predictability. 20th century processes are built for predictability. Stability. The ability to actually plant 18 months ahead. Who plant 18 months ahead? Nothing happens tomorrow and it's over, basically. So how those decisions made. But anyway, I'll send you information as it comes through, but that's really what I'm thinking about is Q2 and ongoing of the 21st century. How do we become much more agile in how we have to deal with uncertainty in a space where multi-generational workforce is here. Multi-generational consumers are here. You know, there is low growth in traditional markets of the global north that we know about. What's going to happen when processes and systems were set up for that that have now been upended? And here we are. Later, absolutely fascinating. I just remind everyone where they can get your book, Cochalette Brands. Is it in all good booksellers? All good book services, including foiled in real life. For real life, I would expect nothing like that. But anyway, Amazon, Barnes and Noble, any good places, just search it up. Well, thank you, Leyla. That is all we have time for today. 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