The True Human - Son of Man E6

(upbeat music) - Hey, this is John at the Bible Project. We've been having a conversation about a phrase in the Bible, "The Son of Man." It literally means a human one. This phrase is the title that Jesus uses most often to describe himself and embed it in this phrase as an entire world of ideas. Namely, that God created humanity to rule the world with him, just like he appointed heavenly beings to rule the heavenly realm. It's a royal calling, but instead of humanity seizing this royal calling, we instead seize our autonomy. And instead of becoming glorious beings, we become like animals. We scheme, we murder, we rule with violence. In the last episode we looked at the story of Daniel and how King Nebuchadnezzar is one of these beastly, violent rulers. Today in this conversation, we get to chapter seven in the book of Daniel. It's an intense dream about beasts and not just any beasts, full on chaos creatures. When we meet them, they're emerging out of a world that resembles a backwards created order. - And so instead of dry land emerging and beautiful plants, animals, and then humans, instead it's the chaos ocean, dry land, and mutants. - And then we learn that these creatures represent human kings and their kingdoms. - So the kingdoms of this world, now and then, inevitably produce these super beasts. And while the kingdoms of this world will still keep on churning, but more time is granted to them. When these super beasts appear and they go too far, God won't take them. - God judges the beasts and destroys them. And then one appearing like the Son of Man comes riding up in a cloud to sit next to God. And this character begins to rule with God overall creation. It's a human who knows how to rule. And because of that, true authority is given to him. - And then the thing that Nebuchadnezzar was after is now given to this true image of God, all the nations serving and honoring him. This human's dominion is eternal. It won't pass away. This human's kingdom will never be destroyed. This is the fulfillment of Genesis 1. - What kind of human can rule with justice and peace and goodness? What kind of human can truly have power without becoming corrupted? - When a human comes who truly puts himself under the rule of God and then extends that kind of divine rule out to the world, that human you discover is the embodiment through the revelation of God himself. - Just a friendly warning, this conversation gets a little nerdy or a little nerdy or the normal, I should say. And if you have the ability to follow along in a Bible, I'd recommend doing that grab it, open it up to Daniel chapter seven. Thanks for joining us. Here we go. - All right, jumping into Daniel seven, Daniel seven is the center of the book of Daniel and how the literary structure of the book works. And it's the story of this vision that is behind our whole conversation of this character, the son of man, who Jesus identifies with and thinks of himself as. So not only is this like the center of the book of Daniel, it's like the center of Jesus' identity. And we've had a lot of conversations about that this doesn't just come out of nowhere, this idea of a human who can truly reign as an image of God. - As an image of God. - Yeah, physical embodiment. - Is what God's wanted and was what God has created humans to be. We're incapable of doing this because we keep taking more than's a lot of when something seems good. - We'll redefine good evil in order to get it. - Yeah, it doesn't matter who gets hurt or what the consequences are, it looks good. And that becomes the problem that-- - On an individual level and on a corporate. - On an individual level, yeah, it looks like Cain killing his brother. And on a corporate level, it looks like Nebuchadnezzar. Like ruling, like a ruthless dictator. - Blundering the nations, yeah. Throwing people in fiery pits and yeah. But there's this hope that there will be a human, a seed of the woman who can just stop this nonsense. - Yeah, that's right. - Crush the head of the snake. - While also being wounded by it. - By also being wounded by the snake. - The seed will crush the serpent's head and the serpent will crush the seed's heal. - Really? Who's this character? Noah, maybe it was him, nope. Maybe it was Abraham and his sons, Moses gets really close. I mean, this guy is on fire. And then you get Joshua. You get King David is a big potential. In fact, so much so that the story really gets narrowed in on his seed. But no, he fails at that task. There's no human. We get to Daniel and Daniel is kind of presented as that human. - Yeah, he doesn't take. - Yeah, he'll give up his own life to remain faithful to God and not take what's forbidden him. - Yeah. - Yeah, that's chapter one of Daniel. - And he's presented as this new Adam figure. - And the King of the nations can see that at the end of Daniel two and worships him as an image of God and offer sacrifices before him. - But then there's a storyline going on within Daniel, which is King Nebuchadnezzar. He has his own test. Is how is he going to rule? What's he going to do with his power? Is he going to use it for good? And take care of people or not. And he has this vision of this beautiful tree that is producing and creating all his value, but it's chopped down. And that's what happens to him. And it's God saying if you're going to create a corrupt version of human rule, I'm not going to put up with it, ultimately. And I like to put people in place who-- - Don't deserve it or don't-- - You wouldn't expect them to deserve it. - Yeah, unexpected, yeah. - Yeah, because they don't use power, the way that people in power use power. - Correct, yeah. Like Daniel has been throughout the story. - Yeah. So this is all ringing in your ears of like, okay, maybe Daniel's going to become this Son of Man character, the new king. - Yeah, yeah, that's right. And also, again, the human and beast. Now the kinesar at the end of that whole thing about the tree is he instead of becoming a tree of life to the nations, he becomes a wild beast exiled in the wilderness. - Yeah, that's kind of this sub-theme that runs through this whole Son of Man thing, which is, what does it mean to be a human? - You put on earth on the same day as the animals. - In the Genesis one. - Yeah, to exercise God's responsibility for those beasts. - But then, but you were given, we were given, well, you, I keep talking about humans like I'm not part of this. We were given the status and responsibility separate from animals. - Yeah. - But we came from the earth like animals. We were given the breath of life like animals. And like the Genesis dream, when humans are truly ruling under God's rule, the animals benefit. - Benefit. - Yeah, they get all the fruit. - Yeah. - They get all the fruit, as well as other people, of course. But in the dream, then, because it has, it's him as a benefit to the animals. - Yeah. - Yeah. - But the opposite tact is to actually become like the animals. - Yeah. But the way you get there is by redefining good and evil. According to my definition of what is good, and to rule and organize my own life, my personal kingdom, or our corporate kingdom, together in my community, in such a way that we've redefined what is the right, good, goal, and we'll do whatever it takes together. And when that happens, it's like the story of Cain, giving in to the inner animal. - Yeah, there's this, the energy behind that, to desire that, it comes from within. - That's right. - But it's also something bigger than just something that began inside of me. - Yeah. - It's sin, it's this evil. - Sin, inclination towards rebellions, evil. It's animal life. - And it's described like an animal. - It's described like an animal. - Yeah. - And it turns you into an animal. - And it turns you into an animal with less than human. And that's what we're seeing, dramatized here, in all these stories in Daniel. - So that's how animal thing, it feels a little blurry to me, where it's like, hey, you are an animal. You were put on earth, the same day as the animal. - That's right, so there's a similarity. - Similarity. - You liken to the animals and you both come from the earth. - Both come from the earth, both given the breath of life. - Yes. - But you human animal, I mean, we are animals. - Human animals, yep. - You are the image of God. What? - In a way that animals, other animals are not. - Yeah. - Scandalists. - Yeah, talk about somebody being exalted from the dirt up to the throne. - Yeah, the weak being coming, yeah. So you're not just an animal, you're something way, way more. So you're both you have this dual identity and this dual identity means that you're going to you can rule the animals And you can bring peace to the to the animal kingdom Benefit and benefit. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You're rule can create benefit benefit for those around you But the other side of it is You don't do this correctly and you're just going to become like one of the worst animals. Yes That you're good and not doing it correctly means Seizing my own knowing of good evil not submitting to God's rule and definition of good evil Seizing it for myself. Yeah, so here in Daniel you get Nebuchadnezzar. Yeah, he does that He literally becomes an animal not literally, but in the story he grows claws and feathers. That's right Hair like feathers becomes animal like comes and he's eating the food of the animals just like cane Like you know after the rebellion of his parents has his same rebellion Vales his test and he becomes animal like in what sense Does he became murdering his brother? Oh murder murder of another human in the name of my definition of good. Yeah Is Cain's animal like yeah behavior? Well Nebuchadnezzar was murdering people left and right Totally, but now like he's like grown hair. Yeah, like feathers and claws like that But it's as if his his animal like you know identity in the in the fields is now a narrative image of He what he's already been acting like in the story. Yeah throwing people into fires Threatening to kill people because he had a bad dream Yeah, so you're right here. We're getting to the essence of all of these stories and the meta story Really what I want the video to capture. It's this right here. Yeah Nebuchadnezzar Character Daniels character all these stories in Daniel are a detailed explorations of just the core thing that was already set up. Yeah You So Daniel here we are Daniel seven in the first year of Bell Shits are king of Babylon Daniel had a dream Oh up to this point. It's been the kings of Babylon having dreams mm-hmm and he interprets them and he's able to interpret them mm-hmm Now it's Daniel now. He's having a dream. Uh-huh as you lay in bed He so we wrote it down and here's the summary Daniel said I was looking in my vision and it was night and behold the four Winds of heaven were stirring up churning a great sea four winds of heaven is that supposed to remind me of anything? Just four four directions as a compass. Okay, so from every direction. Yeah, every direction So it's but when I think of wind and sea I'm picturing Genesis one totally and night in night Yeah, it was so it's dark. Yeah, and the chaotic waters churning and the winds Yeah, blowing over them. Yeah, this is totally that's exactly right. Okay. It's a glowing hyperlink to But there's four winds instead of one. Oh, Jesus one. That's right. So it's like the cosmic winds So for the four directions of the compass can become an image for to sang everywhere from every direction. Got it Cosmos. Yeah, that's right and four great animals Mm-hmm crawled up from the sea is this the same thing then that like it's four beasts But really it's just the cosmic beast. Yeah, the whole the whole cosmos is producing animals being belted up out of this Churning chaotic ocean And so let me tell you what they looked like. Yeah, you know the first one was like a lion Mm-hmm like Daniel. I was just in the lion's den. Yeah chapter six. Yeah, so But it was a mutant lion because it had wings like an eagle I you know who else looked like an eagle earlier in the story Nebuchadnezzar nebuchadnezzar what remember he grew. Yeah, he grew eagle for her. Yeah, we're in head claws like an eagle. Yeah I kept looking however, and that was wings got plucked and it got lifted up from the ground and made to stand on two feet like a human And a human heart was given to it It's interesting. Do you remember Nebuchadnezzar? He was exiled and the heart of a beast was given to him right but then the time passed and he the heart of a human was given back to him again Oh in the story that's right. We didn't talk about that part. That's right after he's exiled as a beast He humbles himself before and he says God of heavens is a lot of God and He stands up and a heart of a human is given back to Babylon. Okay, so this first beast is Supposed to make you think of all the hyperlinks just back to two chapters earlier Okay, yeah, but there is a second beast you remember the four the statue from chapter two they had four metals Yeah, sequence of fork empires. Yeah, here we go. It's four beasts Ah and the head was Babylon of the Yeah statue the first beast is yeah, Nebuchadnezzar Babylon got it second beast This one's like a bear now It was raised up on one side and three bones were in its mouth Between its teeth and someone yelled to the bear get up devour much flesh Rise o bear. I kept looking another one this one Leopard, but it had four wings on its back wings like a bird It also had four heads and it had dominion Then I kept looking in my night dreams a fourth beast dreadful terrifying Extremely powerful and it had big iron teeth It devoured and it crushed and trampled the remainder Or what the remnant and it was different than all the beasts in front of it and it had ten horns Coming out of its head heads coming out of it's The third one had four heads. Oh, this one only has one head this one has one head Iron teeth get them confused ten. Yeah, ten horns. This is the super beast. It's given no it fits no classification The other ones were like a mutant lion a mutant leopard. Yeah hungry bear. This is just some this one has no category Who knows what a beast it yeah? Yeah, so mutant it has no it's its own category It means but has ten horns it's ten horns and horns are they're gonna be interpreted as kings and horn is a Standard image of kings in the Hebrew Bible. Okay, and I was sitting there staring at those horns Yeah, and then look one horn a little one just popped right up in the middle of the ten and The first three horns were pulled out by their roots So this little horn pops up and like scootches off the other three that fall off and this horn had eyes like a human and Its mouth was uttering great things. So those are the beasts the chaotic Like right so think the chaotic waters out of which the dry land emerged yeah and brought order right of Genesis one This is like the anti-genesis one. Hmm. This nightmare version of Genesis. Yeah, the upside down. Oh Holy cow. That's exactly what this is. Yeah, from stranger thing. This is the upside down of Genesis one the upside down What if yeah totally yeah and so instead of dry land emerging and beautiful plants and then animals and then humans Instead, it's the chaotic ocean dry land and then mutants start coming oozing out of the water Yeah, there is no dry land. Well, they're crawling up onto the land. Yeah, so it's big We didn't have a moment where the land was talking land. No, okay, so These are water beasts these are land. So there's all kinds of stuff going on these beasts and again the kosher food laws the kosher food laws The animals are categorized by air land water animals and animals that travel back and forth between those boundaries Mm-hmm are among the unpear pure animals So these are the ultimate uncoshered animals land animals with wings multiple heads I see and they're all coming out of the sea. Yeah Yeah, yeah, so it's animals that are in the sea and on the land and Yeah, so for again Jewish readers these would be the ultimate uncoshered animals got it Yeah, chaos creatures chaos creatures. Yeah, okay, then I kept looking verse nine and I saw these thrones set up Oh, this is important in our earlier conversation when we started with Daniel 7 Mm-hmm I just talked about two thrones where he saw one throne and then another throne unoccupied. Yeah That's one possible way to read another possible way to read this. I've discovered actually at makes coherent sense It's many thrones. Okay. It's the thrones for the sons of God that for the sons of God who sit under the feet It's the divine council. It's the divine council room. It's the divine council He's seeing into the divine council room. Okay, which means it would be the God of God the God of all the other Elohim Yeah, and there is an empty throne beside him Mm-hmm that the son of man's gonna sit on but then lots of thrones or all this The watchers the sons of Elohim. Yeah, so then the ancient of days the eternal chief Elohim comes and took a seat his vesture, his clothing, his white-like snow. Now, hair of his head, like pure wool, thrown, blazing with flames, this is from Ezekiel. Remember, Ezekiel saw a human, he looked up into the cosmic throne, and he saw a human, who looks just like this. And wheels, it's the divine chariot, wheels burning with fire, so it's verse 9, so he sees the divine chariot, mobile, that Ezekiel saw. Yeah, so, okay, so this is a divine throne room, but it's a mobile, divine throne room, but it's a mobile throne. The same way that the Holy of Holy is in the temple, represented God dwelling above the charade beam, the invisible God, seated above the charade beam, when that thing gets mobile, then it's the divine throne on the chariot's wheels, so it's what he's seeing. Yeah. And there's a river of fire flowing out from it, just like an Eden, which was the cosmic mountain where the divine throne room met earth. And there's a river of light. There's the river of Eden, now it's a river of fire because it's a river coming to consume evil from the earth. And thousands upon thousands were attending him, these are all of our heavenly host, the heavenly armies. There's thousands of them? Thousands upon thousands, I thought there was like 72 or something. I thought there was like 72 or something. millions. And there's 10,000's time, 10,000, something for him. Wow. How huge heavenly hosts. It's 10,000 times 10,000 a million. Yes. The court sat for judgment. Judgment sat. Books were opened. I never imagined this grand. What do you mean? Oh, I just was with the whole divine council and stuff. I was just like, yeah, it's a small crew. Oh, I see. There's millions of millions. - And the heavenly, wow, how many stars are there? - Yes, sure, I don't know. - Remember, when these were all created on day four, there's a lot of stars up there, especially without light pollution. - Yeah. - I mean, that's what's in their imagination. - Yep, it's that universe up there. - It's that realm, yeah. - So then I kept looking, verse 11, and I kept hearing, man, the boastful, arrogant words of that porn on the super beast. And then I looked and then that beast was destroyed. It's slain. It's body destroyed and it's thrown into the river of fire. And as for the rest of the beasts, their dominion was taken away, but they kept on churning. A period of time was granted to them. So the images, the kingdoms of this world are mutants like. And they looked just like Nebuchadnezzar did when he got exiled after his dream. It's anti-human. It's like an animal, but a mutant animal. It tramples and destroys people indiscriminately. Remember the super beast in verse 7 was trampling, crushing, trampling, everything under its feet. And it's full of itself. It was different from all the former beasts and it had ten horns. We mean it was full of himself. That a little horn. That's just a little horn. It's just an animal's horn with two eyes and a mouth. Just like singing Jay Z song. Being both full and full. Awesome. I am. This is in this bablon, my kingdom, for my glory. That kind of thing. But this is one horn on the beast. One particular horn on the super beast. So the kingdoms of this world, now and then, so to speak, produce, inevitably produce these super beasts. When these super beasts appear. Yeah, they go too far. When they go too far, God won't take it. The divine throne will come and his judgment will dish you. The beast slain given over to destruction. The kingdoms produce mutant super beast. God won't take it. It's like equivalent of the tree getting chopped down, so to speak. But here's something new. I kept looking. And after that super beast was slain, behold, with the clouds of the heavens, one like a son of humanity was coming. He rose up to the ancient of days. So he goes from the earthly realm. He sees a human. And a human is riding on the clouds. Yeah. That right there is a hyperlink. Somebody ride at the cloud rider. What's it hyperlinking? There's three times the Yahweh is called the cloud rider. Oh, it's actually a phrase that appears in other ancient Near Eastern literature, specifically to describe bail. The thunder god, right, the cloud rider. Yeah. So here, a human is being called the cloud rider, which is something in Hebrew Bible that only Yahweh is ever. So here's a human cloud rider. And he's riding the cloud up to the ancient of days and was presented before him. And he was given dominion and glory. Remember what Babylon said? Here's Babylon for my glory. And so God raises a human from the human realm up to the divine throne room and gives this human who's formerly being among those trampled by the beast, right? The beast was down there trampling on the human realm. And so one human is exalted up. And he's given the glory and dominion that the super beast thought was his own. And all the peoples and the nations and languages might serve worship. This is the word for worship. Yeah. All, okay. So think Daniel to was where Nebuchadnezzar bowed down and worshiped Daniel as an image of God. Yeah. Because of his interpreting his dream about the four kingdoms. Yeah. Daniel three was Nebuchadnezzar making an image of himself in his kingdom and forcing every people, nation and language to bow down to his false image. Now here, the son of man is being presented, right? A human image of God. Yeah. Brought up to the divine throne room. This is what Nebuchadnezzar was after. Yes. He was after this kind of praise by everyone. Yeah. But how do you get it? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So it's not Nebuchadnezzar who claimed this position for himself. Rather, it's a trampled human. A human from the human realm, a son of humanity, who was in the realm that the super beast was just trampling. Remember? Yeah. So super beast was out there trampling on the land. Yeah. And then God takes care of the super beast and exalts up a human from the human realm. Uh-huh. So you're just assuming he was being trampled by the beast. Correct. And in the later chapter, go on to say it explicitly. And then the thing that Nebuchadnezzar was after with his image is now given to this true image of God. Yeah. All the nations serving and honoring him and his dominion. It won't pass away. It's not like the statue that a meter is in common to take down. Yeah. It's like Genesis 1. The ideal of a human. That true human partner. Raining as God's divine image over the nations here. This is a vision, a dream that the hope of Genesis 1 is possible and will come to be. That's right. Yep. That's it. Yeah. But this human is remarkable because it's a human who's doing stuff that in the story, only Yahweh, the God of Israel. And I thought he's sitting on the throne. So now here's a human image of Yahweh. Doing what I thought only the heavenly Yahweh can do. Which is ride the clouds and sit on the divine throne. And be worshipped by all the nations. So now we're all the way back to the complex portrait of God and the Hebrew Bible, where it's like there's a heavenly Yahweh who sits on the throne. Yeah. And then do you remember like the angel of the Lord? Yah, it's Yahweh appearing as a human. There's a heavenly Yahweh who rides the clouds in the heavens. But now here's a human who's riding on the clouds like Yahweh. And being worshipped like Yahweh. So there's a heavenly invisible Yahweh. No man can see my face and live. But then there's a human manifestation of Yahweh, talks with Abraham and Gideon and Moses. And here he's riding the clouds. Ezekiel saw him on the throne. But it's a human. You could do a kaleidoscope image. It would be like two thrones or one throne above all the other. I said guys dream, man. Yeah. But this dream is doing serious theological work, theological work. Yeah. About the nature of God, the nature of humans, humans in our world. What's wrong with the world? Yeah. What's wrong with us? Yeah. Where it's all going. [Music] So Daniel, for the first time, Daniel wakes up from the stream and he says, "I was so. " disturb. Yeah, that's a pretty intense dream. My visions of my mind kept alarming me. And for the first time in the book, he can't make sense of his dream. So he can make sense of other people's dreams, can't make sense of his own. So he in his dream walks over to some being, super being standing there. And I asked about the interpretation of all this. So he's given a summary first. These beasts are four and they are four kings who will come up from the land. But the holy ones of the most high one will receive the kingdom and possess the kingdom forever forever and ever. That's the summary. Yeah. The holy ones. So this son of man character is representative of all of his real. It seems like here. Well, so first, the holy ones. The holy ones. Who have been called the holy ones up to this point? Oh, who? The holy ones. The sons of Elohim. Oh, the sons of Elohim. Okay, the holy ones. The holy ones of the most high will receive the kingdom and possess it forever. So remember, each nation has its own holy one. Okay. And Israel is God's own portion. Right? It has its holy one is Yahweh. And I've used as holy people. So that's because they're interpreting it for you. Okay. I'm sorry. I don't mean to bash on the NIV. It's an incredible. It's a great translation for the purpose that it was made. Yeah. But in a case like this, I think they're making a decision for you that doesn't allow you to see the interplay between the human and the angelic, the human and the divine. So essentially, there's four beasts. But at the end of the day, God's kingdom, both in its heavenly and earthly representatives will receive and participate in God's eternal kingdom. Heaven and Earth. It's heavenly sons of Elohim and it's earthly representatives. We've been talking about this. How those two storylines, they're separate, but they're the same. They're distinct, but interrelated. Yeah. There's two different domains, you have Babylon, different types of characters. But like, it seems like they're on these parallel story tracks. The only way to make sense of what's going on here is when God rescues Israel, his people and gives them the glory in the kingdom that he promised to David, Abraham. He is simultaneously giving his kingdom to Israel's heavenly representatives. Yeah. When Jesus saw his disciples go and proclaim the gospel, the kingdom in different cities, he saw the Satan fall from heaven. That's right. Yeah. The son of Elohim. It was completely connected. Yeah. The member of the divine council, who now is exercising authority. And how do I know this? Because look at these humans. They're beautiful images of God who act like animals, just kill each other, steal from each other. They're under the rule of the evil son of Elohim. Yeah. Acting like animals, like Nebuchadnezzar. But now Jesus goes out and people are transferring their allegiance to the true God and becoming true human images of God in the process. And it's as if the evil ones rule is he's being dethroned from over them. So these four great beasts are four kings. Yeah. They're human kings. Yep. And then he says, but the holy ones, the sons of Elohim, the ones who represent God's reign and rule will inherit all of the nations. But that's not the story of the Bible. The story of the Bible is that humans will inherit. Yeah. Exactly. Exactly. So why is it that the that the sons of Elohim? They're not different things. What? The holy ones of the most high. Who is that? Well, we know about the stars, the heavenly representatives that are a symbol of God's rule. But in Genesis 1, they're also celestial and terrestrial. And I just watched Daniel's dream about one who's clearly called a human, but who is elevated up into and to participate in the heavenly rule. And he rode on the clouds like the angel of Yahweh does. Yeah. So the son of man is a figure who's bridging heaven and earth. Uh-huh. Heaven and earth is uniting in the role of the son of man. Yeah. And so the son of man figure is playing the role of the sons of Elohim and of the humans, images of the heavenly images of God and the human earthly images of God. And so this is going to get unpacked more in the dream. But so we can just say that he's an image of the holy ones of God, heavenly and earthly, who will receive God's kingdom and participate in God's rule over forever. It's a mind-bender. But again, this is part of my new discovery of how important the theme is of the human images of God and the heavenly images of God. It is interesting that this is what he grabs onto the most as a dual identity. Correct. That's right. Being human. Yes. But being. Yeah. So Jesus, if he sees the world in Daniel 7 terms, which he clearly does, he sees himself as the one in whom God's kingdom over heaven and earth is being restored. And so when he goes out into Galilee proclaiming God's kingdom, he sees people giving their allegiance to him. And he looks up behind the curtain so to speak. And he can watch the holy ones of the most high whom he is the representative. Reasserting God's rule over the world and the evil Elohim, sons of Elohim being de-throwned. Apparently how Jesus saw the world. It's the biblical view of seeing the world. It's not natural to my way of seeing the world. But it's apparently what Jesus thinks is going on. Well, that's it, because we're going to, when we read some stories in the Gospels, OK, this will come up again. So, uh, let's go to verse 23. Okay. Yeah. So he says, now, let me tell you about that fourth beast. There'll be a fourth kingdom different than all the other kingdoms that's going to eat all the land. Yeah. Tread it down and crush it. The ten horns. They're ten kings who will arise after them. One last member, the little horn. Mm-hmm. One more king. He will come and subdue three kings or the three horns that fell out. Mm-hmm. And he's going to speak out against the most high. This is very detailed. Yeah. Like, this is very detailed. No, I mean, in the fact that like, if this was just kind of a general description of the plight of humans and how we deal with power. Oh, I understand. Then, yeah, horns and beasts and it's talking about a very specific horn that takes down three turns. Yep. I'm with you. It's like, what is it referring to? Yeah, we'll get there. Okay. We'll get there. So that one particular horn with eyes and a mouth, he's going to speak out against the most high. Okay. He's going to wear down the holy ones of the most high. He's going to make changes in the sacred times, the sacred calendar of Israel. He's going to change things in the Torah and they, that is these holy ones, will be given over into the hand of this horn of the super beast, four, three and a half times, time, two times, half a time, half of a Sabbath. Hmm. A Sabbath? Half of a seven. Three and a half is half of seven. So half of a Sabbath cycle, whether it's a- A time is seven days or seven. Correct. Yeah. That's right. But a time, two times, half a time, one plus two plus half is three and a half, exactly half of seven. It actually, in Hebrew, it's very clear. In Hebrew? Ah, in Hebrew, they're singular. There's dual. Oh. And then there's plural. Oh, okay. So you can put a ending on the noun to indicate just two of something. Okay. Yep. So for three and a half, half of a set, half of a set. Yeah. And where it doesn't mean year, it just means a some period of time. Yeah. A time? A period of time that- One period of time. Half of what a period of time should be. Yeah. One period of time, two periods of time, half a period of time. Yeah. Which comes to 3.5, which is exactly half of seven. Half of seven. Half of seven. And if seven, seven's a symbolic number of completeness, then it's four. This is a symbolic number of incompleteness. In completeness. Then the court will sit. Remember, the little king of the super beast will wage war and overcome the holy ones. And he's going to be full of himself. But then the court will sit just like when the ancient day showed up. His dominion will be taken away, destroyed forever. Then the sovereignty, the rule, the dominion, which is the word kingdom, and the greatness of all the kingdoms, all the nations, under all the heavens, will be given to the people of the holy ones, of the most high one. And his kingdom- Well, that's not what NIV says. What? Really? What does NIV say? He will be, let's see, the sovereign power and greatness of the kingdoms under heaven, will be handed over to the holy people of the most high. So they think holy ones is just- descriptor of the people. I see so they just merged this too. Yeah, but in Aramaic it says to the singular people of the plural holy ones of the singular most high one. And his kingdom, and that his could refer to the most high one, or it could refer to the people, his kingdom. It were there. It made people to singular noun plural reference. Somebody's kingdom. It could be any of those three. Well, it couldn't be the holy ones because that's a plural noun so it would be there. Okay. But the point is it's a singular, the kingdom of a singular person. Well, who's that? It could be the most high one. Okay. But the whole chapter is about God's rule being given to the son of man, another one. Mm-hmm. Who's that? Mm-hmm. Well, in this sentence, it's the most likely reference, I think, is the people. Mm-hmm. The kingdom of the people of the saints of the most high will be eternal forever and ever. All nations will serve and obey him, which is exactly this is what the bowed down and worship, worship, just what Nebuchadnezzar did before the seed of David. Mm-hmm. And Daniel too. And then as at that point, the revelation ended. As for me, Daniel, my thoughts alarmed me, my face grew pale. I didn't tell anybody about this crazy dream that I had. Yeah. Do Daniel seven. So here, let me just show you the progression. Yeah. You had the son of man in the dream. Mm-hmm. What's the interpretation? The holy ones are going to be trampled by the beast, but then given possession of the kingdom. The kingdom being God's authority. God's authority, sharing in God's authority and reign. That was round one of the interpretation. Okay. And you're like, the holy ones, so the son of man stands for the holy ones. The second aspect of the interpretation is given. And the son of man figure is called the people of the holy ones of the most high. Mm-hmm. So when you take the whole chapter into consideration, the son of man is a singular symbolic human who represents both the heavenly rulers of God's people. The delegated authority and the heavenly realm. Those people themselves. And the delegated authority and the earthly realm. Correct. Specifically, this people who God has, because in the story of the Bible, all humans are to be. Yeah. Yeah. Though the noun to describe them in Genesis 1 is singular, just Adam. Adam, yeah. Humanity. Let humanity singular rule over the beast and over the land and that kind of thing. So this dream is picking up that same thing where humanity, Adam in Genesis 1, represents, right? Yeah. On the narrative, it's a singular Adam of Genesis 1 that represents the corporate humanity. So here, the son of Adam is an embodiment of all humanity. Well, sorry. Particularly of God's people. In verse 25, he says that this beast, or like, I guess it's the horn of the horn at this point, he's gonna speak against the most high, oppress his holy people and change the set of times and laws. Yeah. So people there is the NIV's interpretation. It's just the phrase holy ones. So he's gonna speak against the most high. He's gonna press the holy ones. And at this point, that's ambiguous. We don't really know. It's both. It's like God's delegated authority and the people and heaven and earth. Heaven and earth. Yep. But it seems like it's specifically talking about Israel and that it's talking about the laws that God gave to Israel. Okay. So here we come to it. What on earth is this referring to? Yeah. So there was a set of events that happened in the 160s BC before Jesus, 160 years before Jesus, where Israel had been under the thumb of Babylon, then Persia, then Greece, and then under the Great, and then his empire overextended itself. Notice the theme. Yeah. And then his realm got divided up between these kings, multiple kings called the Diadacoe. And these petty kings were down in some down in the south in Egypt and some north in Syria. There's a long period where they're just battling it out for who gets the most of what Alexander left behind. And then eventually the kings of Syria gain ascendancy. And one particular king called Antichrist IV, marched into Jerusalem in 167 BC. He repurposed. He bribed the high priest. He bought the high priesthood to set up new high priest. And they repurposed the temple in Jerusalem to be the temple dedicated to Zeus. They sacrificed pigs on the altar. And then he made practicing Judaism illegal in Jerusalem for three and a half years. And so this is where the books are first and second Macabees. They narrate this whole series of events. And then this is where the Macabee and Revolt comes. So the Macabee and Revolt was an uprising against that set of events. Yep. That's right. So what's happening here is Daniel is having a dream in which the details of that series of events. But notice how we're being very symbolic. We're using Genesis 1 imagery and Daniel imagery of beasts and humans and horns. So it's as if that particular set of events was yet another manifestation of Nebuchadnezzar and Babylon. But that set of events happens hundreds of years after Daniel. That's why it's here. It's a dream. It's a dream that he's seeing. This is yet to happen. So to speak. So it's portrayed as yet future. There's all kinds of debates about whether it's after the event or so on. We don't have to talk about that right now. But it's interesting. All sorts of debates about whether this was written. When this was written and so on. But the point is he sees that as a future vision. And it's clearly the details are mapped onto that series of events. Yeah. What was that character? The name's Antiochus the fourth. He's the little horn. Well, I don't want to say that because if the author of Daniel wanted to say that, he would just say that. Well, yeah. But I mean, if you map on that story to the dream. Correct. He's that that's his character. But I would reverse the direction. I would say that story is being portrayed that suits me. Those series of events are being brought into a larger symbolic storyline. Sure. All the way back to Genesis one. Yeah. He's not the only little horn that's ever going to come. There've been many little horns. Yeah. He's just the current one. So didn't so to speak. But taking down three horns, not every little horn takes down three horns. Yeah, totally. And then there's all kinds of debate about. So did Antiochus ever take down three particular rulers? And some people have made a case and they think they can identify these three other people. Interesting. I think that you can't. Okay. So lots of people try try to nail this down. Got it. In all the details. Yeah, three and a half is really interesting. Yeah. It's totally a three and a half is fascinating. Half of the sabbicycle. Whatever's happening, that series of events, the significance of those events and how they fit into the pattern of human kingdoms, exalting themselves, putting themselves in the place of God, redefining good evil, only to bring about great violence and just the pattern is what Daniel's that's what the game cares about. It's yet another iteration of the pattern of humans acting like animals. You could make an argument that the book of Daniel actually is more interested in just giving context and hope for what did happen or will happen in that time period. Correct. Yeah. That's one standard view is that the book of Daniel received its final shaping after that series of events. I see. And so some details were added to make it clear for that time. Yeah. That's right. But you're saying that more than that, this vision is is not about any one specific. Yeah. Historical human rebellion or human corrupt leader. But about the nature of what happens to us to humans when we give in. That's right. Yeah. If the book of Daniel was only written to address the people who survived that whole debacle, right? In Jerusalem, under Antioch is the fourth. And if it was just literature to keep give people hope that look Daniel foresaw all of this and we're going to be vindicated like the Son of Man. Yeah. A Messiah will come. A Messiah will come. So what the Maccabean revolt happened afterwards. Yeah. Right. And things went great for about a decade. And then they built a Jewish kingdom, a Jewish state independent that lasted until the 60s lasted for like a hundred years, almost. Israel gained independence and immediately became a beast unto itself. And that's the Israel. That's a time of Israel that Jesus was cruising around in. No. Nope. Gosh. This is all. We said 60. You're talking about 60s BC BC years before Jesus. Oh. That's right. That's right. So then what happened? So the kingdom, the Jewish kingdom state of independent that issued out of the Maccabean revolt lasted almost a hundred years. Okay. But began until it just became one violent coup after another. Okay. People buying and selling the high priesthood take over as assassination plots, foreign alliances. Not the Garden of Eden. This is the anti-Garden of Eden. So it was definitely the Maccabean revolt did not result in the Son of Man being thrown above the heavens. Got it. The Jewish state founded by the Maccabean revolt became its own beast. Then the Romans, Pompeii marches in and he just was able to easily scoop up this divided Jewish state. The structure of Judaism that was there, that was from the Maccabeean time. Correct. Correct. Now ruled by Rome. That's right. And ruled by Rome and Rome appoints Herod. And then Herod is the Herod who appears in the birth stories of Jesus, killing babies. Not a little horn. Another little horn. Well, exactly. So that's the point is the biblical books are treating huge swathes of history, many historical events. But they want us to see in any given historical situation the same basic storyline playing itself out of humans being given a test, are they going to submit to God's rule or redefine good evil. And when they do that, they become destructive beasts. And that's the story playing out in Daniel sitting in Babylon. That's the story playing out for the Jews who suffered under Antiochus. Think of how the book of Revelation works out. What's the book of Revelation? It's followers of Jesus suffering under persecution from both a Jerusalem establishment and from Rome. But what John does in the book of Revelation is appropriate all of this symbolism. So it's another set of beasts. But there's multiple beasts this time. And they're trampling and God's people are being vindicated over the beasts and given ruled in kingdom. So John can take this symbolic narrative and apply it to a later persecution of the innocent under violent kingdoms. So it's like a portable story that can apply to any period of history. But Daniel 7 is a crystallization of the images in the storyline that Jesus particularly drew upon. ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ Here's a couple thoughts right now. Why go to all the effort to read this chapter and understand its symbolism? This is probably one of the most complex conversations we've ever had. We just read one chapter and walked our way through it. Cool. Are you with me? Yeah. Like, this is really complex. I mean, I have a hundred questions right now. Yep. I still do too. So why? If I am a follower of Jesus, all right, and my allegiance is to Him and I believe that He's the truly human one who lived for me, died for me in my sins, sins of the world, raised for me, is inviting me to participate in the birth of a new creation to experience it in the hope of resurrection, right? All that. So this chapter of the Hebrew Bible was of central importance to Jesus. He used its language and imagery to describe himself, his calling, to describe why he was forming these communities of people. So to me, that's the why. The why this chapter is important to understand as a follower of Jesus is because I somehow, in here, is a storyline that I'm to see myself within and a part of and to look at the world through. And that's why I think it's worth it. The Son of Man video, to me at first, was just about how there is, let's explain the identity of Jesus. But underneath this is the entire story of God and humans. Which is connected to this entire parallel story of God and the heavenly beings. God and the heavenly beings. Which is all about how are all of these characters going to deal with delegated authority? Correct. Yeah, that's right. So the Son of Man then not only explains and helps you understand the identity of Jesus, but helps you understand what it means to truly use the power that God wants you to have. Yeah, that's right. Correct. And when a human comes who truly puts himself under the rule of God and then extends that kind of divine rule out to the world, that human you discover is the embodiment or the revelation of God himself, of a divine being himself, the one who participates and shares in the very identity and rule of God. Yeah. And that one is somebody in whom both the heavenly delegated rule and the human delegated rule are united and come together. Angelic and human, so to speak. So one way to think about the storyline is that God created humans, said, "I want you to have this authority to rule." But there was something about humanity that was lacking that made us unable to do it. Well. Lacking. Yeah. There's just no human who ever was able to do it. That passed the test. Yeah. What's lacking? And so the story of Jesus, one way to think about this way of Jesus is God Himself becoming human to show you. Here's how you do it. Here's how to be the truly human image of God. But in order to do it, it had to be a supercharged God human. God human is not what He created. Yeah. That's right. Yes. He created just humans. That's right. But then the supercharged God human is now your brother, you know, and you can be one of his class. Yeah. You can have his power and authority and identity. So you can become. Yeah. You can share in the life of, become one with God, the language of the book of John. Which is what God wanted for humans, that oneness in the garden. Yeah. And so insert the animal layer into all of that, that when humans don't rule under God's authority, they become less than human. Yeah. And so the son of man. So this is the story about whether you're going to become more than human, become less than human. Become less than human. And then about how God became the ideal human to rehumanize his people. Rehumanize. But also. Restore their humanity. And then elevate it beyond what it ever was. And elevate it beyond. Yeah. There was a sense of. Yeah. We've lost our humanity. We've become like beasts. Yeah. That's right. But it's not good enough just to get us back to ground zero. Yeah. That's right. But just. Well, now you're just. Let's try again. Correct. Eat of the tree of life and not of the tree of knowledge going evil. Correct. Correct. And that superhuman status in the gospel narratives is what the disciples get a peak at when Jesus transformed on the mountain. Yeah. It's the Jesus they meet after the resurrection. Well, it's kind of what. It's kind of the picture of the Apostle Paul when he gets shipwrecked on the island and gets by the snake. Yeah. Let's get this picture of like. This moment. It's becoming like that. That's right. There's moments where he's on his way. Yeah. The fully. Yeah. The fully realized. Divine human of the new creation. But then you get Paul who talks about the life I live is now just. It's that. It's that in me. Yeah. I'm living out that. And he says it's like light shining through the cracks of a broken clay pot. Yeah. In second Corinthians. Okay. He's on his way. Yeah. He's on his way. So process. And then for Paul, this whole. The transcendent state of a fully. Not just restored, but supercharged humanity is. This is Paul's word. He calls it glorification. Hmm. Okay. To be glorified. To be glorified. To be glorified. That's what that is. It's an image of God that has been supercharged to be what God called it to be. So Paul says like. I want to know Christ, the power of his. Become one with him as sufferings. Yeah. And then he says somehow attain to the resurrection of the dead. Yeah. It's a sense of process. Like he's going to get there. Yeah. Jesus was that culminating moment of "I'm more than human." Correct. But the way there is through the cross. But the way there's darkness. It's through the people of the saints of the Holy. Most I being trampled by the beast. Yeah. It's allowing yourself to die to the animal kingdom and to let the real human, supercharged human you, the God wants you to be, to rise from the ashes of your old humanity. Yeah. But for Jesus that was literal. A literal path. Jesus, for Jesus that, it was, yeah, totally. And unless you and I are alive when God's kingdom comes on earth as in heaven, we too will. We'll literally die. Yeah. We'll have to go through the veil. And it will be through our death that we are glorified. I mean, there it is. Now we're fully into New Testament theology, territory, but this is how our fate and story is tied to the Son of Man. And of course, it's the Son of Humanity. So Jesus is the Son of Man, but He is the Son of Man so that we can all be participants in His journey. Mm-hmm. Yeah. To the resurrection and the new creation. Right. So the Son of Man is also us. who looked. to attach themselves to the true Son of Man, so to speak. I think that's how we are to see all this imagery. - We also ask by extension of being united with Jesus. - Jesus. So we're almost to territory that we can't do in this video. There's other videos to come, whether it's eternal life or new creation or the resurrection. But I think with the Son of Man, we have this opportunity about the humans, made to be more delegated rule. They become animals, act like animals, kingdoms, beasts, trampling. God keeps singling out special people, and then they become animals. The trample more other humans. And so Daniel is sitting here in the belly of the beast. He's been thrown into a pit of beasts. In a kingdom ruled by a human beast. And he has a dream of one day, the beast being destroyed, and humanity truly becoming what it's meant to be. So who is that? Who does that dream refer to? Jesus has walked onto the scene. And in the Gospel of Mark, we're told he is thrust out by the spirit into the wilderness to be tested by the evil one. And the Gospel of Mark says, and he was with the wild beasts there, while angels served him. - Oh, it's Daniel 7. - It's the book, it's Daniel. It's Daniel on the Y and it's Daniel being vindicated with the sun, right? This who's there with the friends in the furnace? Right, it's angelic delivery. - Well, but who was attending to Yahweh when there was all these angels too? - Yeah, correct, yeah, it's right. So right from the bat in the Gospel of Mark, Jesus is the truly human one at peace with the beasts and the one whom the angels serve. And so then the Gospels were portrayed Jesus as a human who's walking up into other humans who are human animals and restoring their humanity. And then he overcomes the beast, the kingdoms by letting them crush him so that they die and he rises to rule over them so that others can become truly human. I think that's the video. - All right, awesome. Gonna get back to Jesus and then talk about some New Testament stuff. - Thanks for listening to this episode of the Bible Project Podcast. We have a couple more episodes left in this series on the set of man. And then we'll do an episode to call them question and response episodes, not question and answer because we don't always have the answers, but we'd like to respond to your questions. So if you have a question as you follow along with this series, send it to us at info at jointhebibleproject.com. Send it in an audio file. You could do that on your phone or computer, give us your name and where you're from and try to keep the question to around 20 seconds. Today's show was produced by Dan Gummel, theme music by the band Tents. We're incredibly grateful for you, our listeners and for those who watch our videos. This has been an amazing journey together. We're grateful for you and all the support that you've given us. Thanks for being a part of this with us. Hi, this is Jan Roberts and I'm from Tyler, Texas. I first heard about the Bible project for my husband and my favorite thing about it is that it allows me to look at familiar scripture in brand new ways. We believe the Bible is a unified story that leads to Jesus. We're a crowd-funded project by people like me. Find free videos, study notes, podcasts, and more resources at thebibleproject.com. (upbeat music) (upbeat music)