The True Dangers of Microplastics with Judith Enck

[MUSIC] When you are pioneering anything or introducing new ideas to the culture, you get criticized. You do? Yeah, did you hear about that? I didn't find the one. I found someone I respected and we made it the one. In a sort of longing kind of view of love, people understand each other as if by magic. Nothing in itself is addictive, one on one hand, and everything could be addictive if there's an emptiness in that person that needs to be filled. I now know that nobody changes until they change their energy. And when you change your energy, you change your life. I'm Gwyneth Paltrow. This is the GOOP podcast, bringing together thought leaders, culture changers, creatives, founders and CEOs, scientists, doctors, healers, and seekers, here to start conversations. Because simply asking questions and listening has the power to change the way we see the world. Here we go. Welcome to the GOOP podcast. I'm Gwyneth Paltrow. Today, before Earth Day, I'm examining a topic you've probably heard about, but maybe not with clarity or depth. I'm speaking to Dr. Judith Enk about microplastics. Judith is an environmental advocate, the president of Beyond Plastics, and the author of The Problem with Plastic, how we can save ourselves and our planet before it's too late. We discuss the way microplastics affect the body, especially for women, and how best to minimize their presence in your life. Spoiler alert. Yep, you do need to throw away that last black plastic spatula. We talk about the ways microplastics may be harming your community at large and how best to get involved. I'll let Judith explain it all. Judith, I'm thrilled to have you today on The GOOP podcast. You cover such an incredibly important topic, and a very culturally, prescient, timely topic in your book, The Problem with Plastic. I was really struck by, well, just the framing of the book in general, really just, you know, I think most of us think about plastic as a waste problem. But you really frame it as, you know, something we're dealing with at the end of its life, but there are a whole host of other problems that that precede it. So before we get into this topic, which I'm utterly fascinated by, I just wanted to ask you a little bit about your past and how, why did this become an important topic for you? Were you always kind of in love with the outdoors and nature? Tell us a little bit about your origin story here. Sure, and this is a good time for people to get a large cup of coffee. So my origin story is coming right up. Yeah, good. I grew up in the Catskill Mountains in upstate New York, and I did spend a lot of time outdoors. I probably damaged the environment by riding my mini bike trails in the woods, and I would spend some time in a wetland across the street from my house, and try to ice skate on it in the winter. And I grew up in a really loving home with both parents, but we never really talked politics or public policy. I mean, my parents voted, and they were salty to the earth, really engaged in the community, helping kids that were struggling. But, you know, we didn't talk politics or issues. And then I went off to college, and I did an internship with an organization called the New York Public Interest Research Group, Nypurg, and that's where I got the bug. So my junior year in college, I was thrown into the deep end of the pool, and I lobbied in the state legislature on New York State's bottle bill. It's the law that requires a mandatory nickel deposit. And my first year I failed miserably, did not pass the bill. I was up against little mom and pop companies like Coconut Pepsi. That right. Of course. And then I returned to second year, still didn't pass it. And then third year decided I was lucky to get a staff position within an environmental group, environmental advocates. And I remember getting paid $100 a week, and rode my bike everywhere. And we passed the bill and the rest is history. I've just stayed really engaged and have worked inside government, outside government. And I feel so fortunate that every day I wake up, and I have an opportunity to work for a cleaner and healthier environment for all of us. And is it right that you did work inside the EPA for a while? I did. Yeah, after I left advocacy, I was in the New York State Governor's office, Deputy Secretary for the Environment, and then I really wanted to work in the Obama administration. I don't know about you, but I miss no drama Obama. So I threw my hat in the ring and was selected to be the Environmental Protection Agency Regional Administrator. And it was a very different time at the EPA. The agency actually was committed to protecting public health, reducing air pollution, water pollution, and enforcing environmental laws. So it was a really wonderful experience. And Gwyneth, the thing about when you're appointed to your job by the president is you know when he leaves office, or hopefully sometime in the future, when she leaves office, all the political appointees leave at the same time. So that left me a lot of time for reflection and to think about what I wanted to do next. And that's when I was still at the EPA researching the plastics issue, but that's pretty much when I decided I wanted to take on this David V. Goliath challenge of working to reduce plastics. So I think I would love to start with essentially understanding from you. Why are plastics so bad for the human body? Well, plastics historically were made from oil and chemicals. Today, plastics are made from ethane, which is a waste product of hydrofracking and then 16,000 different chemicals. So plastics are poison and they're used to package our food, our beverages, they're all over our lives. None of us voted for more plastic. Nothing tastes better in plastics. But I will say that it's the the toxics that concern me in two ways. You and I are always breathing in little shards of plastic called microplastics. It's five millimeters or less. We breathe it in, we swallow it. And just in the last few years, researchers have published peer-reviewed scientific papers identifying the presence of microplastics in different parts of the human body. And it now, unfortunately, microplastics have been found in human lungs, in our blood, in our kidneys, in our heart arteries, in the human placenta, both the fetal side and the maternal side. And that really concerns me because the baby is just hanging out for seven, eight, nine months and is already exposed to microplastics. And then when the baby is born, if the mom chooses to breastfeed, there are microplastics in breast milk. Scientists have also identified microplastics in human testicles. And it's interesting when I'm advocating with elected officials on the need to reduce plastics, some of them kind of, you know, they zone out when I talk about microplastics in the blood or the lungs or breast milk. But when I mentioned testicles, for some reason, they, they perk up. And for a couple years, the plastics industry has been saying, yes, we acknowledge there are microplastics in different parts of our body. But there's no proof that it causes harm. But they can no longer say that because last year a new study was published in the New England Journal of Medicine, one of the most prestigious medical journals in the world. And that research identified the presence of microplastics in our arteries in our necks. And if you have plaque in your neck arteries, it's very likely that the microplastics attached to the plaque and increase the risk, a risk of heart attack, stroke, or premature death. Then last year, there was a second study that I was waiting for it to come out for a long time. I was crossing my fingers, hoping the outcome would be different. But unfortunately, the researchers identified that microplastics had crossed the blood brain barrier, and when that happens, it is contributing to Alzheimer's disease and neurological disease. So, you know, this is pretty serious. - When microplastics are in the body, when they are, so it's interesting to understand specifically how they attach to and worsen artery plaque, but how are they bad and other areas of the body? Are they, the body is seeing, as a foreign invader, it's causing inflammation. What are the ways in which it becomes dangerous? - Well, you're right. It's a foreign object inside our body, even if it's really small, a microplastic or nanoplastic, our lungs, our kidneys are not used to, our GI system are not used to having microplastics in our bodies. Do excrete some of it, but not all of it. So, the risks are twofold. One is just the physicality of it, having this foreign object inside our vital organs, but perhaps more significantly is, I mentioned that 16,000 chemicals are used to make plastics. Every piece of plastic has chemicals in it. So the chemicals hitchhike on the little bits of microplastic. And that is very concerning. Some of these chemicals are known to cause cancer, some interrupt our endocrine system. And I really highly recommend that you and your listeners look at a very new movie that just came out on Netflix. It's called The Plastic Detox. I don't know if you've heard of that. I haven't seen it yet, but I'm looking forward to it. - Yeah, it just came out and it follows six couples that were having difficulty conceiving in a wonderful scientist or modern day Rachel Carson, Dr. Shauna Swan does an intervention with these six couples and advises them on how to reduce plastic in their own lives. And I'm not going to say the outcome, but I will say it makes a difference because some of these chemicals are reproductive toxins. - So I think I'd like to go a little bit back in time to understand the history of plastics, how we as a culture got sold on this idea of convenience. I mean, in the book, it's interesting you talk about almost that we were convinced of the aspirational nature of disposability, right? Like somehow that worked its way in its culture. Can you talk a little bit about how plastic has become such a part and growing part of our food systems, et cetera, really all systems in America? - Well, between the 1970s and the 1990s, global plastic production tripled. So that is kind of daunting. But I want to point out that half of all plastic produced was produced since 2007. - Are you serious? - I actually remember 2007. It was not that far ago. So this is contemporary. - What happened then? I mean, I know there was like a huge uptick and the popularization of plastic water bottles. I mean, when I was a kid, you drank out of a water fountain, you got a glass of water and drank out of a tap. There was no such thing as plastic water. I mean, I never saw them. So was that a huge uptick in plastic consumption? - Yes, in a couple of things. And it's hard to find a water fountain these days, right? And I've always blown away by people who will spend $1.50 for plastic water bottles when it's cheaper and actually safer from the tap in most instances. I mean, there are some communities that are struggling with lead pipes or PFAS. But across the board, especially when EPA enforces the Clean Water Act in the United States, we're fortunate to have clean drinking water. What happened was two, three things that I can determine. And I talk about it, the fear amount in the book, the problem with plastic. First, there's been an increase in hydrofracking. And the companies that do hydrofracking figured out a way to take this waste material from fracking called effing and use it to create new plastic. And I want to point out the number one producer of plastic today is Exxon Mobile. And you think about what's happening in the energy sector. Fossil fuels traditionally were used to power plants for electricity. And the second big use is transportation, so cars and trucks. So on the power plant sector, we're finally seeing investments in renewable energy sources that are cleaner and energy efficiency. On the transportation side, we're seeing, finally, more electric vehicles and electric trucks. So the fossil fuel companies decided that plastic was plan B for the fossil fuel industry. So that was happening. The second thing that was happening was a massive effort to market plastic is convenient and sanitary-- I mean, in the '50s and '60s, there are these hysterical ads targeting busy housewives. Don't worry about all your household responsibilities. You can serve your family food on single-use plastic plates and cups. So there was this kind of bizarre, almost sexist marketing campaign toward women. The third thing is the plastics industry spent millions of dollars deceiving the public into thinking that we can recycle most of our plastic. And that's just not true. I am a big supporter of recycling. I started my town's recycling program when I was home on maternity leave. My mom did that, too, in Santa Monica and New York, as you know. It sounds like your mom, who I love. She's pretty great. She loves you, too. Yes, it's mutual. And she loves you. She talks about you. OK, we all acknowledge. We love the dinner. And anyone in her orbit loves her. So I love recycling. People should keep recycling paper metal glass cardboard, compost your yard waste and food waste. But plastics recycling has been an abysmal failure. It only clocks in at about 5% to 6% as a recycling rate. And yet, companies spent millions of dollars trying to convince us that we don't have to worry about all this plastic from a waste perspective. We can just recycle it. And I just want to spend a minute explaining why plastics are not recyclable, so people understand this. If you have an aluminum can, for instance, and it's empty, you can recycle that aluminum can infinitely. If you've got a newspaper, you can recycle that into a cardboard box. It doesn't work that way with plastics. Plastics have many different colors, many different types of plastics called polymers, and a different concoction of toxic chemicals in each plastic. So if you think of your own home, you might have a bright plastic, hard plastic, detergent bottle near your washing machine. And then in your kitchen, you would have a film plastic, different colored bread bag. Those two plastics cannot be recycled together. You'd have to have thousands of sorts for plastics recycling to succeed. Now, the people who know this the most are the big companies that make plastics. Yet they spend millions of dollars on advertising deceiving us, making us think we can recycle all this plastic. So it's so serious that the California attorney general, Rob Bonta actually sued Exxon mobile in September of 2024 for making deceptive public claims about plastics recycling and its evil twin chemical recycling. Exxon has been trying to get that case dismissed, but the court is allowing the case to proceed. Interesting. And I am confident that Attorney General Bonta of California will win this case because it's all about math. It's interesting the kind of huge corporate intentions and dollars behind something like this. I mean, it's one of the reasons your book is so important, honestly, because I really believe that most plastics were recyclable. I mean, of course, you don't have the incentive of the quarter the way you do it. with cans, right? So I understand why that would kind of impact the popularity of recycling plastic. But I truly thought that, oh, it's all recyclable. There's maybe a few exceptions, but for the most part it is. And I was really shocked that the degree of, the amount of marketing dollars by these big corporations to get behind this false advertising around recyclables. I also didn't truly understand how toxic, I thought plastics, I didn't understand the chemical, the toxic chemical part, and that the plastics, I thought the plastics in and of themselves were the issue, not that they were a Trojan horse for also all of these toxic chemicals. So I think it's really critical that people understand the lessons. Thank you for writing the book. And I'm happy to be amplifying your work. What do you think, is it going to take for these corporations who clearly have a lot of profit to risk from the production, the loss of production of plastic? And also, what are the alternatives? It's so easy, it's disposable, et cetera, like it's become so ingrained in our culture. Well, you're not alone. I mean, we all fell victim to the multi-million dollar advertising campaign. And, you know, a little bit of plastic is recyclable. If it says number one or number two on the bottom and inside the chasing arrows, you can recycle them. It's mostly soda bottles, detergent bottles that are hard plastic and milk jugs. And that's about it. The only real plastic recycling success story is soda bottles in the 10 states that have mandatory refundable deposits known as bottle bills, bringing me back to my college years. So other than those bottle bill states with soda bottles, most plastics are either landfilled, go to garbage incinerators, or sadly get into the ocean, which we can talk about. And just putting the plastic into your recycling bin doesn't mean it gets recycled. It only gets recycled when there's some company that can use it again. So it's going to take new laws on the books to change the way companies use plastic. And I will say there are some appropriate uses of plastic. For instance, wind turbines have plastic in them. Cars, car bumpers are sometimes plastic making the car more fuel efficient. But I've never seen a car bumper at the beach or a wind turbine at the park. We are at beyond plastics. We are really focused on what I call pointless to plastic. And there are so many alternatives. We don't need a space age breakthrough. I'm very interested in mycelium, which is mushrooms. I'm interested in seaweed, I'm interested in bamboo. All of that innovation is happening, but it has to scale up. But in the meantime, we have, first of all, most importantly is reuse and refill and reduction. All of us have gotten something in the mail that's come in like four or five different envelopes when they could have just come in one, right? So that's the obvious thing is first reduce. And then we want to see a refill reuse revolution. When I was growing up, soda was in refillable glass bottles. You can still get organic milk, for instance, in glass bottles. But we have to make it affordable and mainstream it for people. But if you can't reduce refill reuse, the alternatives to plastic are things we all know about. It's paper, cardboard, metal, and glass. They can all be made from recycled material. And then when you put it in your home or business recycling bin, it actually does get recycled. It's true, unlike the plastics industry saying that they can recycle plastics. And so we've got the alternatives. What we don't have is the political leadership to stand up to the plastics industry. And when I mention the plastics industry, what I mean is companies that manufacture plastic, but also fossil fuel companies, chemical companies, big consumer brand companies that we all see in our daily lives. And so this is more of a political science issue than a science issue. And no one in their right mind would take on the plastic industry. But I decided to because there was an unmet need. I didn't see the progress that we need. I mean, I am deeply genuinely worried about microplastics in our bodies. And more than that, I'm worried about the people who live in what's called frontline communities. Louisiana, Texas, Appalachia, where the plastic is manufactured, their health is actually more severely impacted. We work with wonderful people and organizations in Louisiana. There's a stretch along the Mississippi River between Baton Rouge and New Orleans. That's called cancer alley because there's a concentration of petrochemical and plastic companies. And in cancer alley, the cancer rate is seven times the national average. Yeah. And these are wonderful people who their health outcome should not be dictated by their zip code. So I don't live in cancer alley, but I can work on policies around the country that reduce the demand for plastic. And that's why people want to really pay attention to the use of plastic in their own lives. The end of the book, we have a checklist. We have some tips on how to reduce plastic. But the reason I wrote the book was also, along with my co-author Adam Mahoney, who's an amazing young journalist in New Orleans, it's for people to protect their own health, but also be inspired to get in the nonpartisan political arena to work for change. I mean, it's interesting, right, that-- and when you talk about cancer alley, it makes sense that we-- because we imagine in our culture right now, we imagine plastic as a waste issue, not a petrochemical supply chain issue. So I think that's critical. It's critical for understanding the runoff and the waste that's causing 7x cancer in this cancer alley that you speak of. And obviously, that's extremely acute. And what about for this kind of mindless daily use? Like how-- I was thinking about this this morning, like, I have one remaining black plastic silicone spatula, because I have a nonstick pan that doesn't have any chemicals in the pan, but I can't use a metal spatula on it, right? Like, these areas where plastic persists or the black plastic utensils if you're eating on the run. So I would love to know outside of runoff and, you know, environmental from the petrochemical supply chain, what are the daily ways that we are ingesting plastic the most? Is it the water bottles? Is it cutting boards? Like, how is it getting into-- you mentioned breathing it in at the beginning. So can you take us through how they are getting in? Sure, and there are some things we can take action on, but we all have to breathe. And so there's not much we can do on that exposure. You know, Gwyneth, it's different for everyone. And even if we're really careful with our use of plastic, the choice has been taken away from us. I mean, I work for Beyond Plastics. I still buy plastics when I go to the supermarket, because I have no choice on many items. What I urge people to do is look at what they use the most. So just as an example, in our household, I'm married to a wonderful man. But he drinks a lot of orange juice. And I've been telling him for years. It's high in sugar. Like, you know, that's the worst thing I can say about. My beloved husband, Mark, is he drinks a lot of orange juice. Wow, that's a good marriage over there. Mostly, yes. I didn't want to, I didn't want to keep bringing, you know, plastic orange juice bottles into the house or even the cardboard bottles with the plastic lids that when you turn it, little microplastics may be getting into your beverage. So we just bought a glass pitcher, and we buy frozen concentrate orange juice and lemonade. in our house. not to overshare. We don't use a lot of condiments. We're not condiment to people. So I have a plastic ketchup bottle in my refrigerator probably since the Obama administration. And I don't worry about it because we don't use it a lot. But look at like if you're like me, a big coffee drinker, how are you making your coffee in the morning? I would avoid those little plastic pods because you don't want the hot water coming through the plastic to make your coffee. And that's something you're having every morning. So you want to pay attention to your heavy use. The frequency. Yeah, especially fruit for food and beverage. You mentioned definitely ditch the plastic cutting board. You know, it's kind of obvious, but then people, it's not obvious. It's like, yeah, you're cutting things so you're getting at little pieces of plastic. But even I pay attention to, you know, you buy yogurt or hummus. And there's often that little plastic layer on the top. You pull it back. There's a good chance little tiny bits of plastic are getting into your hummus or your yogurt. So we need to be vigilant, but we shouldn't beat ourselves up. There's this great quote from, I think her name is Ann Marie Shabot. She's the zero waste chef. And she said, we don't need a small number of people doing zero waste perfectly. We need a large number of people doing it imperfectly. Right. So I don't like to guilt people about using a lot of plastics, but at the same time, it's not just an altruistic thing to reduce climate change and reduce toxicity. It's in our own health interest in our kids and our grandkids to reduce the use of plastic. But the fundamental problem is we need more choices in our supermarkets. And we need it, you know, we need it to scale up. We needed to be affordable. I worry about like organic food for many years was so much more expensive than conventional food. Again, a dorky parenting story when my son was really little, we got or a big jug of organic apple juice. And the aforementioned husband reached into the refrigerator to pour apple juice and I snapped at him. I said, no, honey, that's the baby's apple juice. You drink the toxic apple juice, which was so much cheaper. So on plastics, we don't want it to just be something that people need to spend hours searching the internet. There are alternatives. I mean, there are some great companies, particularly soap companies and beauty product companies that are giving us alternatives to plastics. But we need it to be easy for people and affordable. That's only going to happen when we pass new laws requiring less plastic. So there's more of a market for alternatives to plastic. And then by economies of scale, if you're making a ton of, you know, healthier plastic or plastic substitutes, right, then then it becomes more affordable. So what are you mentioned like mushroom plastic? I know people talk about corn plastic and biodegradable plastic. Is that are these things real? Like, can you actually store food in something that's biodegradable and leave it in the supermarket? Well, I'm not a really, I'm not a big fan of so-called biodegradable plastic because often it does it. Yeah, it's basically, it's instead of fossil fuel, you will use corn or some biomass material to make to make the product. So you'll see a lot of plates and utensils advertised is biobased plastic or compostable plastic. Right. And that's not good. Well, we took a close look at this because I wanted it to be good. Right. But we make all of our recommendations based on science. And so we actually published a report that's on our website, BeyondPlastics.org. And we found that a lot of these products contained chemicals. And also, you don't want to put them in your backyard compost bin because they won't degrade. They only degrade in commercial high temperature commercial compost facilities, which most communities don't have. So I think it's well-intentioned, but not really. So some of them don't biodegrade at all. Some of them do, but they biodegrade but leave toxic residue behind. Yes. I brought students to look at a composting facility. For instance, and it had like a compostable fork and it was still fully intact a long time after being in the big compost pile. But I think the solution is going back to basics. For instance, we just did a webinar with two women owned companies. Really interesting. One is called a hisma. They make stainless steel trays and cups and bowls for schools. So rather than the school cafeteria serving hot food on single use plastic, the children are served on stainless steel that is then washed and goes around thousands and thousands of times. And then the other company was called useful. And that company was established by a pediatrician after she read about the health impacts of plastics by the American Academy of Pediatrics. The other company was called useful and they make stainless steel over usable packaging for college campuses. And it operates almost like a library book system. You pay a deposit for the container. There's a date by which you need to return it. And these innovations are happening all over the country. A hisma is in 300 different school districts in the last year. So yeah, I think reusable refillables is a much better road to go down than waiting for compostable plastics to have a breakthrough. And so what do we do? Like as you know, I have a beauty company. I have a food company. I have plastic containers, unfortunately, in certain things. You know, if you switch to glass, there's breakage, there's much more expensive shipping costs, etc. So what is your recommendation, you know, for somebody like me, I imagine the beauty business we are, of course, all of us who have are in the beauty space, we're contributing to this issue. And I certainly don't want to be. So what are the, what are you advised? Well, it's, you know, it's different for every company and every product. I deeply appreciate that you're paying attention to this. Your right glass is heavier and it breaks, but there's some products that it does lend itself. I'm pretty pretty bullish on stainless steel. And there's one company again, I probably should not be name checking companies, but let me just go. That's okay. No, it's good. I want to mention plain products. Again, a women-owned business where you get shampoo and conditioner and hand lotion in reusable stainless steel. Very attractive. And when it's empty, you mail it back to them. And then they send you a full container again. So during COVID, they had no supply chain problems. There's another company called. But isn't that like, do you think that's realistic? Like, do you think that, you know, it's how easy is it to get people to adopt that behavior, just considering how ingrained it is, you know, that we, we have a whole disposable, you know, I feel like I love that idea. I just, I don't know how difficult it would be to change behaviors, but maybe, you know, you do it. And then, well, you're right. It's hard. It's much harder than tossing something into a recycling, recycling bin or the garbage. But they make it easy because it comes in a cardboard box with pre-printed printers. It printed addresses. And so you just put it in the box, return it to the post office. But it definitely takes extra steps. And I think a lot of this is going to be driven by the quality of the product. You know, they have salon style products. They're really nice. So I'll tell you a secret on hair care. Not that I'm a hair care maven, but I've been experimenting with shampoo bars because it just comes in cardboard. It's like a bar of soap. So some of them are really good. Some of them not so much. And it's kind of like we're non-toxic cleaning products. We're 20 years ago. It's really just emerging. Another innovation that is easier for people is there's a company based in New York called Blueland. And they have hand soap. They have I love that cleaner, different things. And so you have the thick glass container that you keep forever. I'll have mine for the rest of my life and I've dropped them. And then when the product is empty, when the container is empty, you just get a little disc. It's like a concentrated soap product. So you're just buying those little tablets rather. And that really reduces the packaging. And the nice thing about Blueland is I actually don't like purchasing things online because of the climate change impacts of transporting just one thing to your house. The nice thing about Blueland is they're now in some major brick and mortar stores. So when you're on your roller skates running through the store, you just pick up the tablets and it's very easy. Right. Yeah, they're they're they're fantastic. And I think they've they've really paved paved the way, you know, the the laundry detergent comes in a little tin thing and uh, yeah, it's a nice it's a nice color. And it just reminds us think of all the fossil fuels and money we're spending shipping water all over the place. Like all the water and detergent, all the water in soda, you know, you can now not just make um celtzer at home through this product that just adds the carbonation. You know what I'm talking about, right? Yeah. And now they have you can get syrup for different um, sodas. Like it's the dentist full employment act. You can make like two bottles of soda hourly in your own home. And what's nice about that is you don't have all the plastic bottles that you have to recycle or return for deposit. One. One thing I did want to ask you about was the plastic bags at the health food store, you know, when you go to like whole foods or whatever and they're like, oh, well, this these little plastic bags for produce or even like air one like these fancy grocery stores, um, these are totally biodegradable and safe to put your tomatoes in or whatever. Is that incorrect? Um, you know, it depends on the product, right? I, I don't think there's a safety risk when, you know, you put your tomatoes or your avocados into one of those bags. I think that's more of a waste issue. When you buy tomatoes and avocados, do you even need a bag? Um, right, you know, can you just avoid it or I'm waiting a tote bag to the grocery store. But sometimes you forget or you're on your own from work and you need to run in and get stuff. Yes. Is it better to use? Because sometimes they say, oh, it's better to use those on paper bags, paper bags are more of a problem. I mean, I feel like there's a lot of misinformation around this stuff as well. There is and supermarkets love plastic bags because they're cheaper than paper bags. But, um, you know, if you forget your reusable bags, there's actually a whole portlandia episode on this very favorite TV show. I would go with paper before going with any kind of plastic because the paper is not a petrochemical product and you can actually recycle that paper bag when you get it home. One thing I did want to circle back to that I found really interesting that you made the argument in the book that consumers were subtly trained to feel responsible for pollution, right? Like it was, it's our fault and we have to pick up after ourselves. But given the supply chain from how, how, how, how does that narrative take and hold so successfully? Oh, I'm so glad you're raising this. Well, not by accident. I mean, again, the multi-million dollar advertising campaign, you know, years ago, there was this ad campaign all over TV about litter bugs and there was, and there was like, remember the man dressed up as a native American with the tear. He was actually an Italian actor. And that was a concerted, orchestrated effort to shift responsibility for plastics and litter away from the petrochemical companies that are making it and toward you and I. We're just irresponsible litter bugs. And we ruined beaches with our leaving of the plastic bottles on the beach and it's, it's our failure. Yeah. And it kind of worked. It shifted the narrative toward it's all our fault. It's not, you know, giant companies that are pumping known carcinogens into the thigh and into our drinking water. It's you and me, Gwyneth. We're just, you know, that paper wrapper got away from us. And we also see it in the climate change space that this whole phrase of our carbon footprint. So I discourage the use of the phrase plastic footprint. Most of us don't litter and if you do, it's by mistake. It's just, there's so much darn plastic in our lives. Inevitably, it gets out into the environment. Yeah. Absolutely. Especially, I mean, I'm always struck. I took my children on a trip once to Indonesia and we were walking on an incredibly secluded beach that was very hard to get to and it was just a wash with hundreds of plastic water bottles. So, you know, we set out to get, of course, big plastic bags and collect as many of the bottles that we could. But I thought, you know, to me, it seems like one of the top offenders just, just culturally speaking. I mean, it was, it was very shocking and I live by the beach here and I'm always surprised by the amount of plastic water bottles. It just seems unnecessary. It totally is. I mean, you, we've got access to clean drinking water. It's not that hard to bring your own container and for unless you're in Flint and Michigan or something. Right, when I'll have. Yeah. If you've got a problem with lead pipes, then you do need, you need, you know, emergency water. But most of the time, we're not in emergencies. But countries like Indonesia, Vietnam, the Philippines are getting inundated with plastics from the United States. Not just what washes up on beaches, but there are, there's a business called waste exporters and they actually send by ship massive amounts of plastics to other countries that don't have the infrastructure to deal with this and it's causing huge problems in their rivers and the ocean. And that's why there is an effort at the United Nations to do an international plastics treaty that has been a struggle because the country is that make a lot of plastic like Saudi Arabia and the United States aggressively block the UN process to tackle this internationally. But we, um, we do not have clean hands because the US exports a lot of plastic to other countries as waste. What happens, you know, and you sometimes I'll go down like a internet hole and watch those river cleanup videos or the boats that go out into the, into the plastic island and collect plastic. What happens? What is the safest and most responsible way to deal with waste plastic once it's collected? If any. Yeah, there are no easy solutions. And in fact, I think those projects where they try to skim the plastic off the surface, they're well intentioned, but the reality is once the plastic gets into the ocean, over 99% of it falls to the sea floor. So there's no way to get it back. That's why we are so focused on reducing the production use and disposal of plastic because once it, once it gets into the ocean, you're not getting most of it back. And when they do skim it up, it's degraded, it's dirty, it probably just goes to a landfill. I mean, there are different projects that they say they recycle the ocean, ocean bound plastic. I actually hate that phrase. And for years, my little nieces would give me those plastic pieces, like plastic bracelets for Christmas. I'm like, oh, thank you, darling. And then I would just be so unhappy that they were hoodwinked into thinking that was that's how they should spend their money to clean up the environment. But most of the plastic in the ocean comes from the land. When I first saw the statistics on plastics in the ocean, which are quite significant, I thought that it was like ocean-going vessels that were illegally dumping. There's a little bit of that, but over 90% is just we're walking down the street, a plastic bag gets away from us, a plastic bottle gets away from us, it gets into the storm sewer, goes into the river. We know all rivers empty into the ocean. So the plastic water bottle is out in the ocean. It's exposed to sunlight, so it's brittle. And then the waves are almost like a paper shredder. So one plastic water bottle becomes hundreds of pieces of plastic that build up in the marine environment. They don't stay on the surface, but a lot of the plastic, unfortunately, is eaten by fish, by sea birds, by sea turtles, and that is kind of the quiet emergency that we're turning the ocean into a watery landfill, and virtually no one knows about this. And remember, fish from the ocean is a major source of protein for so many people around the world, and now we have data showing the presence of microplastics in fish that we are eating. Oh my goodness, it's kind of depressing, but important, very important to understand. Is it going to be really the consumer that starts to understand this and then demands change? I mean, of course, and then laws come from that. Like, do they happen in parallel? What can we be doing as citizens to change the supply and demand such that there's less need to make plastic? Yes, it's, you know, it's a couple of those things. So I'm a big believer in the phrase when the people lead, the leaders will follow. And we see genuine concern by so many people, and it's across the board. I mean, we have polling showing bipartisan support for reducing the use of plastic. Unfortunately, that bipartisan spirit does not topple into legislative bodies where, unfortunately, most people in the Republican Party are voting again, start most important bills on the plastics front. But I think what is unfolding, and I'm probably like clinically optimistic because I am, I sit at this perch where I see everything going on on the plastics scene around the world. Local governments are adopting local laws, you know, on our website, we have a model bill to ban plastic bags, ban polystyrene food containers, because you don't want hot food on polystyrene containers. We have a simple little proposal called skip the stuff where when you order, take out food, you don't automatically get the plastic utensils and the straws and all the napkins. We just helped, we worked in a coalition to pass that in the state of New Jersey. So there are hundreds of local and state level laws that are being adopted. And we're not seeing anything helpful out of the federal government. So the place to focus is at the local level and the state level. And then how do we marshal this concern from ordinary citizens into policy change? You know, that is going to be tedious work. It's also fun, you know, where neighbors meet neighbors. We started a program called for beyond plastics called local groups and affiliates. People can start a local beyond plastics group. We're not, we're not very bureaucratic. We don't call it chapters, but there are groups of mostly women all over the country that are coming together and tackling this issue in their own community and then they will scale up. I feel duty-bound to mention there is a big gender gap on the plastics issue. I teach a class on Zoom through Bennington College on plastic pollution. Most of my students or community people that are auditing the class every semester over 95% of the class are women. And also at the local level, it's women that are leading the way. And so that's also why I'm optimistic. Women really focus on public health. They care about their kids and their grandchildren. Yes. And we wrote the book. So everyone had everything in one place and it is maniacally footnoted. There's lots of footnotes at the end. So if you show up at a meeting with your city council member and they challenge something that said, you just go to the footnote and, you know, use the book as an organizing tool in your community. And in closing, Judith, I would love to just ask you, just tell me three little changes that I can make today towards this end. Look at your own use of plastic. So definitely you mentioned you bring your own bags to the supermarket. If you drink a lot of coffee, bring your own reusable mug to the coffee shop. You know, shift to frozen concentrate juice. If you know someone who drinks a lot of juice in your life. So, you know, look at your own use of plastic. Second, enter the political arena. And I don't mean that in a partisan way. But, you know, go to our website beyondplastics.org. We have model, local laws. We have reports. You've got to be informed on this issue. And the third thing is we all have to vote because we need elected officials who actually care about protecting health in the environment and who are not in the pocket of polluters. And that's our biggest, biggest problem right now. It's not lack of information. It's lack of political courage in legislative bodies and an unwillingness to go toe to toe with plastic polluters. I mean, that's, that is what we've got to change in the next year. Okay. Well, it's been such a pleasure having you on the podcast. I really appreciate your time. It was a great education for me. And, um, and keep up, keep up on your amazing crusade and beyondplastics. We will. Thank you. So, so grateful that you had me on today. Thanks. Thanks for tuning in. This has been a presentation of Cadence 13 Studios. I hope you'll listen, follow, rate, and review all of our episodes, which are available for free on Apple podcasts, Spotify, Odyssey, or wherever you get your podcasts. The good, holiday gift guides are our calling card. We scour the earth for the best options in every category to make it easy for you to find the right gifts for everyone on your list. 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