The Trial-First Philosophy: How Jason Green Leverages a Prosecutor's Edge to Fight Big Insurance

Welcome to Latte with a Lawyer, a podcast dedicated to bringing you the stories of some of America's most successful lawyers, figuring out what makes them tick, how they creatively solve problems, and how others, aspiring to be them, can follow in their footsteps. Welcome to the episode of Latte with a Lawyer, I'm your host Jonathan Brickman, and today we have with us Jason Greene from Atlanta, the law firm of Bader Law. Welcome to the show Jason. Happy to join you. All right, good deal. First question always, it's Latte with a lawyer, so tell me how you get started every day. What's your beverage choice? Latte. I really, I have several of them throughout the day. So, but that is how I start the day and it's close to how I ended. I stay caffeinated throughout the day. Nice, excellent. So, very few people actually have a Latte, so I'm happy to hear that. Yeah, we're fortunate to have an industrial grade Starbucks machine, and so it does Latte, he's a Americana, all of that, and Latte is my weapon of choice. Oh, good deal. They get you going. All right, excellent. Where's your office? Where are you located exactly in Atlanta? For those who are familiar with Atlanta, we are directly across from Linux Mall. For those who are not familiar with Atlanta, it's in the Buckhead area right off the Peachtree Road. Very good. I know, well, I normally, when I go there, I say at the Weston. Yep, yep, right there. All right, good, excellent. Okay, excellent, very good. All right, so I tell everybody to have a lawyer practice and, you know, what you do. Yeah, sure thing. So I am a personal injury lawyer, and I do the whole gamut. So I have done cases that would be considered minor impact, soft tissue, and I've done them all the way up to serious injury and death cases. So I've done passenger vehicles, premises liability, commercial vehicles. So if it's an injury and there's damages, both economic and human cost, human tolls, I'm your guy. Okay. Is there any particular focus for your practice or the first practice? I would say there's not a focus on it, but definitely the largest concentration is auto vehicles, whether it be a regular passenger vehicle or commercial vehicles. That's easily the largest concentration of case types we have. Got it, got it, got it. Yeah, I've driven in Atlanta many times, and it's a little scary out there. It is, and interestingly, then I was on the dark side, as I call it, working for the insurance defense industry. There was a statistic that Georgia was the worst state in terms of auto accidents to ensure for these carriers. And so that's consistent with my experience out here. Oh, interesting. Well, I love itself. Florida is pretty bad here too, but whenever I go to Atlanta, it's like, oh, my God, I think it's even crazy there. Yeah, I don't have much experience driving in South Florida, but I would put us up against anybody. That's a notorious distinction. Yeah. I'm with you. Wait, so how long were you on the defense side? About five years. Okay. And how long have you been on the planet side? Every year after that. So when I switched over, as you probably know, I started as a prosecutor here in the Metro, Atlanta area. Yeah. And when that stage of my career waned, I switched over to civil, got my introduction to civil litigation and injury litigation, and specific, like I said, working for the dark side. And ever since then uninterrupted, I've been on the plane of side, which is where I feel like my skills and talents and honestly, my passions really lie. Oh, interesting. So why just, I mean, how'd you make that switch? Like, why did you start in the defense side and then make the switch? Yeah, it was because I knew that to get the foundation and Jonathan, I'm just going to keep it real with you and your audience, experiment and learn on their dime and, you know, with their files, then have somebody's life or money or situations in my hands. And I don't know exactly what I'm doing. So I knew my way around the courtroom, but the civil litigation and what it took to build a good file and a compelling story for a jury. I wanted to make sure I had that down without potentially having to forbid damages somebody's case. Yeah, yeah. That makes sense. When you say your passion, so I'm interested in that, I mean, I sort of have a theory about playing a versus defense of, I mean, why say your passion? Yeah, I have always, and this is where the prosecution element comes in. I have always been able to, I always say, get up on the white horse, be the good guy, arguing for people who have been injured through somebody else's wrong. So obviously in the criminal sense, it was home invasion, the rape, having forbid a murder. And so that's what naturally track with all of that years of experience to when I switched over to civil side. I took the five years of education when I was on the defense industry side, but it didn't feel right. Yeah, arguing for a corporation against, you know, an injured person. I felt like my skills and talents were just not being utilized appropriately. And so the minute I felt that I had that education down and knew everything that there was when I everything, but you know, all the major pillars, I switched over. And I have not looked back. I have really begun enjoying my practice of law again. Oh, good. Excellent. I mean, it seems, I mean, I always ask a question. I'm curious like the personality type for defense and plan. Did you place sports growing up? Were you a real athlete? Well, in my own mind. So I did baseball and soccer and basketball, but I realized early on that a pro career was not in front of me. So yeah, it's really more for my enjoyment than anything. Yeah, we think the plaintiff side is more like I used to be in the brokerage industry. It's more, you know, there's a lot of athletes. It's it's competitive. You're on offense as opposed to defense. And so that sort of personality type lends itself, I think, to the plaintiff's side, maybe. Yeah, my family and friends will tell you, I am very competitive. Um, everybody wants me on game night. And, you know, they they do not like it when I'm on the other side. Okay, get it. I can relate to that. So, um, so, so give me if you can talk about any case, maybe it's a current case, but one that's particularly interesting, that you worked on. Oh, yeah. Um, so one of them and, you know, I won't use names to to keep, you know, anonymity, but there was a young man that I represented a couple of years ago. Um, and he was a professional boxer. Now before, um, I keep going with that. I want to emphasize professional justice in the sense of he was earning money on it. Yeah. Yeah. It's not a household name that your viewers would know necessarily. Um, but he was fighting. He had a, um, I think a 10 and one record. He had been in the Olympic trials. Um, and actually was going to be going, um, to the Olympics, but and that's where the injury comes in. He was riding his, um, work by home, um, on Boulevard for the people who are familiar with Atlanta. That's a pretty busy thoroughfare. And he was actually hit by a police officer. Um, uh, APD officer was attempting to execute a U-turn and he was in an unmarked vehicle, hit him, um, and it seriously injured him. Um, broke his leg, had puncture wounds in it from cause he actually impelled himself from the handlebars. Um, and it was just, it was very bad. And so the city of Atlanta, of course, draped itself in, you know, where the police, he was responding to an emergency call. Uh, and so it was that coupled with, um, my client was a young black male dreads. He had on street wear. And so they tried to, you know, play into stereotypes and he had a small amount of marijuana on him and so it became, you know, we're the good guys, they're the bad guys, they did wrong, we're just responding and they refused to make what we felt was a reasonable offer and we, got him in there, talked to him about it. And as ironic, we were talking about competition earlier, I think him being a fighter, he got that. And I said, look, there's nothing guaranteed here, but I think your case is worth more in front of a jury. And so we went about building it up. And the interesting part is, right before trial, we had to do a lot of digging. It was a lot of contesting over the medical injuries in what extent they played, because he was not able to return to the ring for almost three years. Friends and family testify, it becomes suicidal. So all of that was coming in. But I think one of the linchpin was we've actually found the officer who responded initially to the scene. And his testimony was pivotal in shifting the liability narrative. And then we had to damage his component. But through all of that, we brought in former fighters that he had both trained with and fought against. We brought in his coaches. We did that whole presentation, his co-workers he loved was. And by the end, he received a seven figure of jury award. We actually went to trial. And their offer before trial had not exceeded 60,000. Amazing, excellent work. How long ago was that? That was about two to three years ago. OK, recent, early recent, yeah. What county was that? That was in Fulton County, here in Atlanta, yeah. OK, interesting. So how did you get ready for the case? I mean, do you guys focus group, the cases? So we do focus group, but not every case. Every case does not call for it. But for that, when we did more focus grouping of themes, I mean, the client was who he was. And the jury was going to either accept him or not. But some of the themes that we were playing with, we certainly shot those. And it's incredibly useful. Matter of fact, that was not my first time using one. But it was certainly one of the earliest instances. I think maybe the third or fourth time that I used one. But because of the disparity between the pre-suit offer and ultimately what the jury gave, it certainly made me a believer. And so for any listeners who are on the fence about whether or not it's a useful tool, I would certainly say, consider it. I mean, you had some classic issues, too, with all the bias, about a fighter, the police. I mean, you had a lot of sort of big issues that you had to work through. And that was the thing was because they had all of these counter narrators with the fall, with the marijuana, the dirt bike. Because that's why I specified that it was not a motorcycle. There were so many things they were trying to say that there was no turnlight on there. There were so many things that we were having to account for and try and narrate around that I found it to be very useful. Yeah. So what was the outcome of this person fighting again, back in the ring? So unfortunately, we have not kept in contact. So I don't know his current endeavors. But I do not think so. At that point in time, when we had to trial in the verdict, he was not fighting. And honestly, once he received the jury award, he was interested in doing a nonprofit, starting a nonprofit for disadvantaged youth and trying to help them. And so I think he was very sincere. We talked about it in many occasions. And so I would imagine that he's pursuing that. Yeah. Interesting, yeah. So, okay, very good. That's actually an interesting case. A lot of issues in that one too. What kind-- for the firm, curious, too, with all the AI that we have going on, are you leveraging that in the firm now? So we are in the exploratory phase. Our executive and leadership team have some trial software, trial licenses, savvy with the terms. But we're on a trial basis with some of them. And so we're exploring different products to see what would be the right fit for the firm. But we're understandably wary because with increasing frequency, you hear about these stories of attorneys having hallucinated cases or things coming up. And we don't want to fall victim to that. And so on a parallel track, the right technology product within is how do we put in the guard rails? Because of course we can issue a policy or protocol to check all the sites and everything. But people tend to still cut corners. And if they're press for time or have a high demand caseload or they're on a quick turnaround. So we want to make sure that there are some guard rails in place before we go live with that. But we're definitely interested in pursuing it. I mean, it's common, right? So you got to sort of-- Oh, yeah. That is a force multiplier where if you don't have it, you are putting yourself at a distinct disadvantage because the other side of guarantee you has it. Yes. Yes. So it is interesting. It's amazing how fast it's happened, right? And people are using it. Yeah, and I guess to flesh out the answer a little bit more, I know some products that we use have a built-in AI component-- Yeah. You know-- What's the law, and things like that? But a standalone product, we're still evaluating that. Well, there's a bunch out there. So without going into the names, I'm sure you'd know them. Yep. Yep, I have lunch and learns with many of them. Lunch and learns. Got it. I'm familiar with that term. OK, we're good. You're open to where you're looking at it and evaluating it. And-- Most doubtful. Yeah. I mean, you're right. We'll have to figure it out completely. But there's a lot of power in it. I mean, everyone is trying to figure out the human capital impact. But it's definitely a multiplier in a machine more productive and efficient. So I think that's a good thing. Yeah, absolutely. So, very good. So I mean, what would be your advice for someone coming up now that's thinking about law with all this stuff happening? What would you say to that? What would you say to you when you're getting started? So it's funny that you would say that. I've done a lot of mentoring in the past. And that's a common question that comes up when you hear that I'm a lawyer. And I actually usually warn people off of it. Because the law-- I mean, it's in so many movies and TV shows, so it tends to get glamorized. But a lot of people don't really understand of what it takes to do it. It's certainly at least at a high level. And it's very demanding. And my family in particular would sometimes tell me like, come out of lawyer mode. And so I say even the way that it affects your psyche and how you view things and approach things. And so you have to be really clear about why you're doing it and do you really want to do it. Because there are much easier ways to make a living. Now, the other half of what you asked, the law kind of found me. So I did not follow my own advice. My father was a lawyer. He didn't have as long, but he was a lawyer. And he's my hero. And so I just kind of followed his footsteps. But I wasn't sure what kind of lawyer I wanted to be. And I went to UGA law school. And I don't know if they still do it. But it was mandatory. Your first year, you had to participate in the MOOC court competition. Oh, nice. And I will tell you, I was trying to flunk out. Like, I did not want to advance. I felt like the whole thing was a waste of time. And I was just doing it to comply with the obligation. But I kept advancing round after round. And finally made it to the final eight. And then the final four, where I got knocked out. And people were telling me, like, you're good at this. You're really good. You need to think about it. And so that's where the bug was born by. I assure you, I did not enter law school with those notions. I thought I would be pushed and paper somewhere. And I trust in the LA law, you know, kind of error. And so I was really more interested in the trappings of being a lawyer, you know, break-cases seats. And I really wasn't thinking about a courtroom. So it kind of found me. Interesting. Yeah. And I see you. I mean, you were a Bodha. So you obviously have tried a lot of cases. - Yes, yes, yes. - 'Cause you gotta earn that. - Yeah, yeah. - And interestingly enough, having switched over, I didn't know about a Bodha at the time that I joined and the managing attorney of the firm that I was at that time when I was on the defense side, I was trying so many cases when I was there. She approached me and she said she was the regional, I guess, president of it and she said, this is an organization called the Bodha and you really should join it. So that's where that came from, yeah. - That's very good. So how many trials have you been in? - Oh gosh. If you're asking, generally I would literally say 100 or more. I stopped counting at 100. Now that goes back to my criminal day. But if you are asking civil trials, it's still probably in the neighborhood of 30, 40. - Okay. - I mean, even these days like last year and this year, how many times have you been in the courtroom? - So I haven't been in the courtroom this year, nor last year. So the last time, this is 26, 25. The last time I was on trial, like actually went through with trial, 'cause people who do trial work, you do the prep, the work up, and then you start on the courthouse steps, but actually went through trial was in 24. - Okay. - And nothing on the donkey, no. - So they're afraid of you basically. So they just settle as well. It's hard to get in there now. It is hard to get in there now. And I like trial, so, but I also recognize when it's a good result for my client. And as the song goes, you gotta know when to hold them, knowing to fold themself. - Right. - So I mean, as the firm is a whole, would you consider yourself a trial firm? - Would you like to try a session? - We absolutely are. And I think we do have a pre-litigation department and they focus on pre-litigation, but there are three other apologies. Four other litigation attorneys with me, and they are well-suited and have trial experience themselves. So yes, we absolutely try cases and will litigate them if we can't get them resolved on the pre-suit side. - Okay, wait, so I'm just to back up a little bit. So before I lost you, like when you went to college, what would you go to school for? - Political science with the idea of going to law school. - Oh, so you knew it, okay. - Yeah, it was just that I really thought, you know, I would be a transactional or corporate lawyer or something. And even in my first year, no, apology, second year in law school, I interned with Austin and Bird. And like that was my whole thought process is, you know, I'm gonna be here pushing paper and reviewing contracts and document review, all of that. The courtroom did not have any allure for me initially. - Okay, interesting. Well, you found your spot. I mean, it kind of works out that way, usually. - Yes, and I, that moment there in Georgia Law School where we had to do that, I am so grateful for it because it's so fulfilling to me now. It was something that I thought I didn't want, but oh my gosh, I love it. - Yeah, okay. - You probably go back to the school and help I would imagine, do you? - I have gone back. My schedule doesn't allow for it as much, but I've certainly judged and helped out with the mock trial and MOOC court teams there in the past. So unfortunately, if anybody from Georgia is watching, I haven't really done it since the pandemic, but yeah, I would certainly be willing to get back in there and help again. - Okay, 'cause I mean, not every law school has that program, right? - Not everyone, but fortunately, Georgia's is very robust, and actually, they have a pretty good record. They've won multiple national championships, and yeah, so it was, and that's what I realized later was the reason why they made it mandatory, was they wanted to be able to scout all of the talent that they had there, so they take seriously there. - Any other family members, kids, or anyone else gonna be an attorney, or art attorneys? - Oh, you break in my heart, Jonathan. I have three kids, and two of them graduated college. Matter of fact, we just had a graduation in May, and my son is in college, and I have tried to talk all of them, 'cause even though I said, I try and talk young people out of it, you know, you won't, at least one of your kids to follow in your footsteps, at least, and it wasn't for lack of trying, you know, be trying to convince at least one of them to go, but they all three saw the late nights, and the weekend work, and they're like, nah, we'll pass. - Oh, that's funny, yeah. Well, the one of the things I like about P.I. Laws, that there are a lot of family businesses, right? - Yeah, yeah. And I wanted to-- - You wanted it, too. - Yeah, yeah. Matter of fact, one of my colleagues, one of the little attorneys that you were asking about, his daughter just graduated from law school, and I was telling him how jealous I was of 'em, you know that, that he had a lawyer following in his footsteps, so. - Oh, man. So what are they gonna do? - What are they gonna do? - The work. - So one of them, the oldest is a teacher, the middle child who just graduated in May, isn't a teacher, but she's working with autistic children. And then the youngest is aspiring to become a doctor, so he's a biology, pre-med, and I hope that works out for him. - Oh, good. Well, those are all noble professions. - Yeah, I'm proud of being part of it for myself. - Yeah, and I understand, that's good stuff. So your firm, what's the mission, what's the goal here? He's trying to grow it, what's the plan? - Yeah, so we are always looking to grow, but naturally and organically don't want to force anything or take on cases that we don't believe. And so it's not necessarily that we won't do a minor case, 'cause I absolutely, and when I say minor, I'm talking about the nature of the impact or the damages. But trying to weed out those people who are really injured and need help versus people who may just be thinking, "Hey, I heard a commercial, let me see what I can get." Well, I'm not even saying that they're fraudulent, but there are some people just want to, "Hey, if I can get a few thousand dollars." And so we try and really focus on those people who are sincerely impacted. Gotta go. Wait, do you have billboards around Atlanta? I'm trying to think of how to say them. - We do, right? - We do, right? - Yeah, I thought so. - I thought so, yep. - You do TV spots too in Atlanta? - Don't get me in trouble, but I don't think we do TV spots. - Okay. - I don't think we do TV spots. - At least none that I've seen. - Okay, yeah, I've seen the, I think I've seen the billboards around there. - We do have billboards, and I do know we have a presence on radio and ads. - Okay, very good. Yeah, I mean, it's part of the game, right? - It is, it is. I mean, in order to help people, they have to know you're there, so. - Yes, yeah. I always wonder how effective the billboards are. I mean, when you're writing me, you shouldn't be looking at the billboard, right? So it's like, and it's hard to like really get, but it must work. - You know, you would think so, because the largest firms, and I won't say the most successful firms, but at least in terms of generating clients, that's a thing to have that presence. My theory, I'm not in marketing, I have no marketing background is, that it's really kind of a confluence between timing. So if the person was in and accident or close in time to one, and they just happen to see your billboard, that's my theory, how it kind of works. I don't know that they necessarily remember it, 60 days on, but if they were just seeing it the day before, or two days later, maybe then it'll click for them. - Yeah, that's just my personal theory. - You may be right about that. So listen, just to wrap it up here, just sort of final words you wanna leave with the audience about your firm or you, and also the best way to get in touch with you. - Yeah, absolutely. So, for me and my firm, we start with a trial first philosophy, built in the case for trial, and that comes from me as the manager and attorney, because when I was dealing with rates and homicides and capital cases, it's not a, well, I'll get ready if it doesn't settle. Most of those people are looking at life 30 years in jail, and so settle on it. or plea is really not an option for them. They're fighting it. And so it's always better in my mind to go ahead, prepare for trial. And then if there's an off-ramp, we can de-escalate and go that route. And I've instilled that into the troops here for your audience in terms of why that's important because some of them may not know the, at least the climate here in Georgia. We've suffered tort reform recently. And so it's really emboldened the defense industry. And the differentiator now is, can you back it up with trial? They feel, like I said, emboldened that the law is now on their side. And so we've seen the offers plummet, they've become very unreasonable in my estimation. And I say they haven't previously worked on the defense side. And so I think now more than ever, you have to have a firm or a lawyer. If it's not us, somebody who is prepared to go to trial. That doesn't mean your case will. But if the insurance company knows that that firm or that lawyer won't go to trial, that's it no matter how much of a meritorious. They're not interested in justice as the common man thinks of it. They're trying to preserve their bottom line. They've got shareholders. And so if they can devalue your case, they will do it. So don't think that you're in good hands. And they're going to give you a fair offer. You need a firm that is absolutely prepared and will go into court and back it up. And so that's what I would say to your listeners. - Excellent, that's good. Now I know about the recent tort reform, the bifurcation of right liability. But that's resulted in lower offers from the defendant. Interesting, okay. - Yeah. - You know, well, you got to hold them honest, right? So you're right. - Yep. And that's what I look at it as. It's running there to a use that is going to hold you to it. We're not going to let you slide. - Yes. Good, I like that. I mean, that's the whole system. So you're right, you got to be willing to fight. Otherwise, it's like anything negotiating. You know, it's as good as a negotiator, frankly, to get the result. - Yeah, I'm happy to hear that. I think that's a big advantage. - Yeah. - Good. All right, well, listen, I appreciate it. I learned a lot. It's always good to talk to someone else from Atlanta. - It's been a pleasure. I love talking to you. - Yeah. And for everybody, again, Jason Green from Beta Law in Atlanta. And this is sponsored by EmotionTrack, which is a legal tech platform. And we help guys like you get ready for mediation or trials with our insights platform. - Yeah. Thanks a lot, Jason. I appreciate it. - Thank you.