The Trauma That Hurts People Most (And Never Gets Named) | Patrick Teahan

[MUSIC] Everywhere I go, airports, events walking down the street, people stop me and say, "Lewis, this show got me through one of the hardest seasons of my life." And it's one of the coolest things when people come up to me. So if you see me, please come up and say hi. And let me know how this show, The School of Greatness, has impacted you. It lights me up because our mission at Greatness Media is to impact 100 million lives every single week. So if today's conversation hits home for you, do me a favor and push the follow button right now. It means that the next conversation will be delivered to you and will find you exactly when you need it. Again, thank you so much for being here and listening to The School of Greatness. Make sure to follow right now to stay up to date on the latest and greatest. [MUSIC] I just someone learned to build a relationship with the younger version of them who wasn't neglected. So they feel safe moving forward. When we think about childhood, they need such cuddling and connection or something like that. But for a lot of child-to-tromb survivors, that got really wrecked. It's a problem in a way because what they will stay in if they can't connect with tenderness, they will be stuck in bitterness. It's a clinical social worker and one of the most trusted childhood trauma educators in the world. Please welcome Patrick Tiam. A lot of childhood trauma is around abuse of perception. What does that mean? Either we're fine, we're a great family, nothing is wrong. I'm a bad kid or that can happen directly, same tricky or a bad kid or the child could be neglected and come up with that on their own. What's the type of trauma that usually hurts people the most? I would say that. So when someone has childhood trauma, what is it actually doing to them and side of them when they have it? And why can't they see it and maybe don't have words for what's happening? Yeah. The first part of the question was, what is it doing to them? Yes, when someone's experiencing childhood trauma, what is that doing to them inside of their body? Just off the top of my head, I mean there's so many ways that we can kind of talk about it, but really in a simple way, what it's doing to them is disconnecting them from the world and disconnecting them from themselves. And shame is usually going to be the culprit of that. We can look at shame as like, if it was a buffet, like you walk into a golden corral and there's one protein, like that's the shame. And then all the other emotions are going to be related to that protein. All the other side dishes, curiosity, anger, joy are complicated by that shame. So they're disconnected from the world. You know, they don't feel like they have a seat at the table in life. They do a lot of hiding, doing a lot of like what we can take from the neurodivergent community is a bit of like masking, pretending and not feeling authentic. So they're disconnected from the world and then disconnected from themselves from a place of not to that last point, not knowing what their emotions are, as well as struggling with the sense of self, like sort of what we talked a little bit about earlier is sort of like having one identity as I'm really good at cooking and that's all I am. I'm really good at music. That's all I am. And that's not really an identity. That's a performance. So it's like a skill you've developed. Right. When you strategy. Yes, strategy, a skill, and people really get messed up when that's been taken away. Like if you get fired from a job, or if you get if you have a breakup, and then that identity is breaking down, but what a healthy identity would be just sort of like you know that you're a certain type of person and you have your goodness that you don't lose no matter what happens to you. So disconnected from the world and then a big disconnect from self, from self, and emotions. If someone that developed a strategy or a skill and they tie their identity to that strategy or skill instead of tying their identity to the goodness of themselves. Yeah. What happens in their life? What happens in their life is they become almost like secretive, even if they're not, you know, like they're pretending to assimilate in life, but their world might become small. Like in my case, I started playing drums when I was 11. Weirdly not because I was interested in drums. I mean, I liked like Phil Collins and the ladies and stuff like that. But I wanted something to separate me from the other kids. I wasn't good at sports. I wasn't good at school. I didn't feel lovable at home. And I wanted something to make me very visible. And it worked. It really worked. But the very strategy. Yeah, really good strategy. But I also fell in love with playing drums and it gave me a sense of like, oh my god, I can do this, you know. And it really, but you know, that was at 11. By the time I was 19, it stopped working. Because our world becomes very small when we rely on a performative like identity kind of a thing. Why does it stop working at 19? Because you probably in eight years mastered it to a certain level to get certain results. And you probably got pretty good at it. And you got people to pay attention. And people sharing for you at the school band or whatever it is. Yeah, you're getting success. I got right. But I was also like at 16, guys in their mid 20s hired me to play drums. So it was really like a boom, you know, they really got me out of all that deep pain. But why it kind of stops working is it's a little bit of like that song. Is that all there is? Do you know what I mean? Where the drums playing the drums didn't help me with my relationships. It only lasted six weeks because I was a mess. Playing drums didn't help me feel good about myself in the way that I needed to. Playing drums didn't connect me or afford me the authenticity and the intimacy I wanted from other people. So it's just, you know what I mean? Like, and it was in a sad way. Like I could go and play drums and clubs around Boston and feel amazing and have great nights. But I would still go home and with there'd be myself at home. You would just connect yourself. Yeah. And disconnected. But also feeling less than the rest of the world. So then it becomes a little bit like addictive. And I be with these feelings. Like I don't really feel like I belong anywhere. But I can always rely on my drums. But I don't really feel like I belong anywhere. You know. So you mentioned something about that neurodivergent community. I guess like masking. Yeah. Yeah. Individuals who are considered neurodivergent. Are those individuals who are considered neurodivergent? Is that developed through trauma in their life? Or is that more of a born personality traits that they have? That I believe I'm not an expert on it. But I believe it's just an organic thing that they are sort of born with. And it's in what is kind of fascinating about it is what I was talking about there is childhood trauma survivors kind of have to assimilate to what they assume the normative world is. And someone who is neurodivergent, they have, they've probably like childhood trauma survivors. They felt like they were born different. And they have to mask into a neurotypical world. Which in a way is traumatic in and of itself. Because it's just sort of like if you have to and we can relate to them in a way with childhood trauma like I felt like a weirdo kid. I felt disconnected from everybody. But I found ways to sit at the lunch table and be liked by other kids. And folks who are neurodivergent, they have to kind of mask in a way and pretend to be neurotypical or show up to the neurotypical world. Which is just kind of a shit. And they wake up to it and there's like I just want to be me. You know what I mean? So there's there's like a then diagram of overlap there that we can learn from each other and to complicate it more to be neurodivergent is to have your own series of trauma in and of itself. Because like when you think back to what you'd graduate high school 2001 2001 and growing up in the 90s how sensitive was the school system around kids who were odd. It was different. It wasn't sensitive. No, it was traumatic. So like we all. I was putting in special needs classes. Yeah. It was like and that was traumatic. Yeah. Just even the name of it of it of itself is just sort of like it's just awful. It's what I call double whammy trauma. And double whammy trauma is a lot like if you're a son of or a child of immigrants and you have to be the translator and you're different than this society that you're growing or you're neurodivergent. The double whammy is you have to sort of mask and pretend and sort of meet the neuro typical world and the neuro typical world is kind of saying this is the way to be. And if you're not this I don't want to tell you. Yeah. In our society or culture that you're in right now this is the way you're supposed to show up. Yeah. Yeah. Right. And just think even in the 80s like sort of when when children were in special need school or something like that is just like it was something really horrific like taken away into a different class and just putting it like separated and you were I was separated in a different classroom is in during like recess. Yeah. During lunch during recess I was like in a separate classroom with me and essentially the other kids who are like in wheelchairs. And it was like me and that. Yeah. So kind of like the other classmates would walk through. I you know the member we're talking about like traumatic events that we remember and how both of us remember so much traumatic events over the good events in our life. Right. Even though I know there were good events and I can really focus on them and think about them reflect on them, but there were so many more traumatic events. - Yep. - And even just, maybe it's not even that big of a deal, but at the time it felt like a big deal, right? I experienced it as a big deal when kids would walk by and laugh of me and the special people. - Well, that is a big deal, right? - Yeah. - At that time. Maybe if I'm an adult and that happened now, I'd be like, okay, whatever, I know who I am. But at that point, - True. - You know, at that point, - Right. - with that nine year old brain, - Right. - I didn't understand. But a nine year old brain also without power. - Zero power. - You know, so as an adult, we have the power to have a debit card and our own thoughts about ourselves and whatever, but depending on what the school says or our parents says or whatever, we have no power to sort of, you know, it's just kind of like this horrific, like you get what you get, you don't get a set kind of a thing, you know? But back to that world, and I think what I really love, I get joy from is sort of my son who's 15, the schooling has changed over time, that they've slowly, I mean, it's a work in progress, but we're woken up to sort of this idea of just like, why are we separating kids when they should all be together? And even there's even a culture of better parenting that people are waking up. There's like parents watching my channel, they're watching your channel. Like in the 90s, we had a couple books. - Yeah, I was there. And they were like secret on the download. There's like Judith Herman, and then there's like John Bradshaw. - When you were talking about therapy also in the 90s, or 80s and 90s therapy was like so taboo, you know? It's like, you were messed up if you have a therapist. - What was interesting about that is, I love that you brought that up. It was taboo in crappy families, but people in 90s were pretty into therapy. - Really? - Like when I was, I moved, I left the suburbs to go live in Cambridge, Massachusetts, and I was kind of not launched from home. I kind of escaped home or catapulted out of home. And I go from like really blue collar, abusive, suburban kind of place to, I'm now in a city outside of Harvard University. Everybody's doing breath workshops. People are going to a place called Breton Circus, which became Whole Foods. And they would buy organic stuff in bulk. And you know what I mean? And like, people were living, they would go to this, they would go to retreats and learn raky. I learned raky in the 90s. But when you're growing up and it separated from that, there was a good therapy kind of culture going on. You can see it in like the, in the old Oprah shows of, their beat John Bradshaw, and he would be doing these, this amazing work educating people about childhood trauma. So, but I relate to what you just kind of said. I wouldn't have known anything about it. You only mean because it's just sort of like, everybody around me, there's just like, what? Breath workshops and you think childhood? Just suck it up. Just suck it up. Right. Well, you know, most people, they think about trauma or they picture trauma as some big event that happened to them, right? Some big event. Singular, right. But the quiet everyday stuff often does the most damage for a lot of people. Yeah. What's the kind that wrecks people the most? And they never even name it. Yeah. That's a tricky one to name. But I would say that the most is sort of, the most is about for the individual. And the first video I did on my channel was about critiquing the A study. And we've all heard about the A study. The A study is, it's a good sort of study to measure the effects of health over time for people who grew up in childhood trauma. What's the A study? It's a very simple sort of test that's kind of like, I'm gonna draw a blank on the questions. But one question always sticks out to me was, so like, did you grow up with a parent who was incarcerated? Did you spend three days out of the week hungry? It was just kind of like that what I, with my critique of the test is sort of say like, well, that's extreme trauma. But there's this wide spectrum of trauma. And what I've learned from my mentor Amanda Curtin was there's kind of blatant trauma, which is the trauma that I grew up with, like growing up in bars and domestic violence. And there was a death of a sibling. There was just this loud stuff. Big stuff. Big stuff. Big T. But then there's sort of what happens though from what I've learned from my mentor, if you come from a tricky family, where there's no really emotional attachment and everything is performative, maybe even affluent or whatever. Or there's just, you know, there's not a parent that's like in your face, an alcoholic or drug addicted or violent. But they're massively a little bit covert and are statistic or depressed or something like that. And here's the kicker is I had an easier time in psychotherapy because my trauma was blatant. You could name it. I tried to avoid it or I tried to minimize it with a therapist, but you know what I mean? Like I remember my first session, which I'm writing about in a book with my therapist, you know, I'm talking about how my mother would drive around drunk driving with kids in the car. And she was like, that's not okay. And that was the first time I kind of heard it. But then I quickly would sort of say like, oh, you don't understand my mom, she had a hard life. - So justifying. - So I would be still justifying it. But for the person that comes from that tricky family, they kind of have a very tricky mind that's going on because they would be sitting in a group comparing themselves to me. So the person who comes from a trickier family, is going to have a harder time maybe looking at this stuff 'cause it wasn't loud. But the other kicker is in my group work when I was practicing, when I would have somebody sitting down, they had a tricky family sitting down to someone who would have a very blatantly abusive family. The symptoms are exactly the same. There's anxiety, there's depression, and neither party knows how to do intimacy. So in some ways, it doesn't matter so much about, I mean, there's definitely healthy parenting and good enough parenting and every family has a bit of stuff. So that's perfectly fine and good. But in a way that the trauma symptoms are the same despite the severity, which is kind of mind blowing, do you know what I mean? - Yeah. - So when someone lacks the ability as an adult to be intimate or to truly open up or to go deep, what is that typically saying about their childhood? - As I would be curious about. Like if everything's on the surface, or if it's all like superficial talk, or it's all fluffy, but then you never ever actually answer a question about something, or you don't remember painful moments, or you're not able to actually express those deeper, painful moments, or just real moments, just being authentic. - Yeah. - What is that saying? - Well, I couldn't when I started therapy, I would again minimize, or I would really believe what my mom's story about what happened was. It's just, I mean, so it was a little bit like brainwashed. So there's this other piece about it. But when someone, if I would have a client that was sort of surfacy, I would know that that's a strategy. And I would also know that they might be a bit dissociative from what happened to them or their emotions. But in a way, like it's very, very common. Usually they do would be showing up to come see me knowing a little bit in that way. But I don't know if I'm answering your question. What was the, like, sort of, what is underneath that? Like what is, what is it saying about someone's childhood or someone's life? If they lack the ability, if they lack the ability to be real with you, unless maybe after a month and you finally crack them open, it takes so much work to get someone to actually say something real. - Two ways we can look at this. We can look at it as modeling in the home. What were their parents like with emotions? What was the emotional culture in the home? Like in a way, like you would make sense if that same person grew up in a home with like screaming, door slamming, and then two seconds later, it was like who wants brownies. Because the parent isn't being real about it. And to take it on a tangent, sorry, I'm giving them both the tangent, a lot of childhood trauma is around abuse of perception. - What does that mean? - It means that like either like we're fine, we're a great family, nothing is wrong. Or that can look like you know, abusive perception, meaning like I'm a bad kid. Or that can happen either sort of directly, sort of saying to a kid you're a bad kid or the child could be neglected and come up with that on their own. So when someone is sort of struggling with authenticity and not being able to kind of do that, I would be curious about who taught them to be on the surface. That's one thing over here. Or they figured out a good way like from what we said earlier to assimilate into safe zones. What's how's the weather? I'm fine, it wasn't that bad. Like when I showed up to therapy, I was operating in a safe zone because I didn't want to dip down into anything. And Shane will do that in a way that we will try to contain it as much as possible. And anytime we're trying to contain who we feel like we are or what really happened to us. Like we're in an inauthentic place. But in the group work that I do in RRP is there's a warm up to that that they're in a, when I was practicing it sort of it would be eight people in a room. We would start off going over handouts about childhood trauma and getting people to sort of share. So there was a thawing around that authenticity. And the best part is when someone really struggled with it, it would become a group issue. Also. In a way like there's an exercise in that work of doing a geneogram where you put together your family tree of dysfunction and you show up and you Literally put it up in the wall and you present this is my family From a place of truth tell wow of course If you get feedback from your group members you get feedback from the therapist. I'll never forget I've done I've done three geneograms in my life in different groups each one equally as powerful of your own Family dynamics my nuclear family system of origin three generations grandparents nuclear family Here's the alcoholism here's the immigrant stuff. Here's the the Here's the weird dynamics. Here's my siblings. You're just laying it out and you're sharing it with with seven straight well But you know them. Yeah, you know you've built relationships. You know them for six months at this point, okay But what I'm getting at is sort of that is an exercise of a slow slowly getting people to become more authentic To be able to share it's really intimacy work in a way But you feel like you're gonna throw up on your shoes when you present in that way Yeah, and do you ever see people trying to like diminish what certain that's what the work is about It's like, yeah, my mom. She had a hard life. So, you know, right trying to defend That's what I did when I presented the first time Yeah, I'm saying excuse me, but it was not their fault You know, that's how it works where I'm up there and I'm again more Talking about my my mother's emotions about what my dad did to her and what was like for me as a child and Somebody in the group gently called me out on it When I when I presented that and the person was sort of like I'm so proud of you for doing that But I feel like you're protecting your mom still right. Oh, man. Yeah So there's you know in a way like what I love about group work is When someone is on the surface There's two things they've been conditioned to be on the surface, but they don't know how to be real and that three and a half year group work is a whole Exercise it has three goals. It has finishing business with our family of origin It is reparenting the inner child and it's intimacy work But intimacy work is an internal and an external kind of a thing and it towards the end of this stuff it gets kind of heavy In a way of real conflict stuff, you know So how do we resolve the dynamics or the relationship with the work with our parents? Mm-hmm. How do we get to that place? Let's say someone isn't able to do Three years of group therapy. Yes, right. That's and it and you and you ever great and do you ever get finished with your parents? Like in the work that needs to be done to heal the relationship with your parents. I think you can in a good enough way Yeah, and my my experience my path was about being in that group But for people who don't have access to that or it's a tall order, you know I mean, it's it's funny when I was 20 I was in such a hole when my therapist was like would you like? I have one spot in a group would you like to join it? It's three and a half years I was looking around going like I got nothing going on. Oh, right. You don't even know It's pretty good. Yeah, yeah, I was you know, he means you know the sound of the world You know like I was just waiting tables and playing the band. You know what I mean like and really lost in a lot of pain But it's so funny that you bring that you mentioned that I and I developed a six month model of that group to give people an Introduction because it's tall order. Yeah, it's gonna get in there three and a half years 20 You know 2029, you know, so it's a lot, but it was the best thing I ever did in my life, you know It takes about a good 20 years for us to get really Trauma conditioned in an unhealthy family. So when you look at it that way three and a half years isn't really a long time So how do we heal that relationship with our parents? What is it take for us? instead of saying all right, I'm gonna do I guess the question is What needs to happen within us to feel like we've healed the relationship with our parents enough That it doesn't hold us back from being authentic selves anymore Great question like are you referencing the actual ongoing relationship with our parents or do you mean like the internalized? internalized yes experience that we need to Have heal or feel in order to feel like okay, I can navigate my past relationship with my parents and my present relationship with my parents Now right no matter what happened if we can do enough work on ourselves where The deep part of us what I would call our inner child or our subconscious when that part of us knows that I was a good kid And I was just in the wrong place at the wrong time Not from an intellectual awareness place because anybody can tell themselves that But when you know in your internal core and you have a good sense of self enough of like my mom and dad were wrong about me You know, I don't I don't wish them ill. They were just not really well people They did a number on me But I think also too like with over time getting to that place and you in your deepest core self Not again, it's really people get tripped up that could say well, I'm already there Do you know what I mean? Then I'm like how's your love life? Yeah, do you know what I mean like it the proof is in the pudding about sort of like where if when you feel like you're You're done in a good enough way is if you can live your life in a totally different way And that's going to also involve the internal stuff right? Yes, you have intimacy now as an adult right and you have do you have general harmony in your relationship? It doesn't mean it's going to be perfect, but do you feel peaceful? Enough to have intimacy. Yeah, do you have friends? Yeah, do you have a good feeling about humanity instead of being so like? You know what I mean like there's I'm not sort of saying it all has to be that But there's I'm kind of fascinated by this about this like final frontier of like what does the end result of a lot of work look like And I still I still get triggered in my life, but I know it's not real. Yeah, and I can It'll last a couple an hour at most not like seven days the way it used to you know, so it's like that kind of stuff But when that internal part of you knows that you were a good kid and you have goodness and you have a seat at the table in the world that's what the end result might look like and Group groups are not like whatever whatever gets you there like whatever gets you through the night Is kind of that but I see a lot of people because they don't really know and I'm not criticizing them I see a lot of people out there convincing themselves That they've hit that point and then they it's like Lucy with the football life keeps kind of beating them up a little bit You know, so you said there's kind of three parts to this healing process the first one was You know doing the work with your parents and kind of like finishing business Yeah finishing business with your parents. Yeah, whether they're alive or not alive or you speak to them or not In the therapy room. Yeah, yeah, not why not not with that yourself. Yeah, the second part is Reparenting the inner child. Yep. So how does someone learn to build a relationship with the younger version of them who was neglected abused Abandoned or had a number of emotions around feeling not good enough shameful guilty and Like they didn't belong. Yes. How does someone as an adult? Mm-hmm Connect or reconnect with that version of themselves emotionally So they feel safe Moving forward. Yes in a con that's something I will not take on a tangent in a concrete way Pictures of a younger self There's a tool that I teach called dialoguing which is your you're you're having a you're journaling on paper between your dominant hand and your Non-dominant hand. Oh, man. Cheers. You're speaking with your subconscious and that's also your handwriting is like a Child on the right, which is another fascinating very fascinating thing. Oh my gosh blew my mind a lot of clients have this experience They will write from their inner adult their dominant hand in block lettering In their inner child rights and cursive. Oh my gosh, and there might be wounding around that cursive kind of a thing I had a client from India this broke my heart where They were not they were they were being schooled in a Catholic school where they were not allowed To use the left hand everybody had to be right handed so that's like another Thing over here about it, but pictures of yourself a stuffed animal um Um the dialoguing also what is very RRP the therapy that I the relationship recovery process is very tactile Watching the shows that you watched when you're a kid You know like maybe evening sent evening the some of the foods Um, so there's a bunch of things that's a lot like jump starting This but everybody shows up to that work differently some people You know depending on their trauma they make like I do not want to parent my inner child that's somebody else's job Some people have an immediate connection in the inner child is just like where you've been my whole life It's amazing, you know, and there's like a easy way that they they don't struggle as much with it Other people who might struggle with being dissociative might struggle feeling like it. How do I get a Toe hold in there and get that jump started relationship going And then to complicate it further their inner child might be angry. I don't like adults. I don't want to talk to you I don't want to be parented So a lot of that is the nature of that work if someone is not willing to have a relationship with the younger version of themselves the inner child yeah What is not available for them the rest of their life if they always that's a great question. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah They don't have a relationship with them younger self Are they're just angry yep about their child? They will get stuck around tenderness that they will not experience tenderness in a way that they might need compassion for themselves, compassion for their inner child, a tenderness towards their partner, a tenderness for other children. Just general, like when we think about childhood, like you're a new dad yourself, it's sort of like they need such cuddling and connection or something like that. But for a lot of childhood trauma survivors, that got really wrecked and their grossed out by it. I don't want nothing to do with it. And that's a stuck place that I may have to really press and lean into a client to get them to hit a grief spot about it. To the point where I've had to say somebody like, you know, this is your inner child to picture them. Would you tell them that they're worthless or they're not worth your time? So it's a problem in a way because what they will stay in if they can't connect with tenderness, they will be stuck in bitterness. They will be stuck in brokenheartedness. So like when they're, you'll see it. Have you ever known somebody in your life when their partner gives them a kiss on the cheek or there's a wedding or something like that? They make a joke about it. Or they sneak out of it a little bit? They don't embrace it. They don't lean into it. They may have to, you know, some people, it's almost like I think about like sign-failed characters. I'm not saying these people are bad. We're just kind of saying like there is, it's just telling me that in their childhood, the family might have been super sarcastic, toxic and acidic about connection. So it's one of the hardest things to, next to when the inner child, when the inner, when the person's inner adult wants to connect with the inner child. And the inner child is just like, I don't know. Wow. And that's another barrier, you know. But when people don't do this, and one other place that I talk about this is inner child work is just a language vehicle. For people who are like, inner child work. You know what? You know, like I just don't, it sounds so foofy or whatever. Or it sounds so precious, you know, which I get. Then I would just flip it semantically to say like, okay, then, or even when someone says, I don't have an inner child, my inner child died a long time ago. I don't, you know what? I don't operate on that kind of wavelength or weather. I say, do you have an amygdala? Do you have a limbic system? You do. You have an inner child. It's just, it's just your emotional memory system. And you also have, and other people will sort of say like, I can't find my inner adult. I can barely function. I will never find my inner adults. And I'm like, you have a prefrontal cortex that works all the time. You don't even mean like, you get triggered for three days. And then you rally and get out of it. That's when your prefrontal cortex comes off online. Prefrontal cortex is just your inner adult. It's more functioning part of you. And that's the part of you that's going to start to have a conversation with your limbic system, specifically your amygdala, which is like the file cabinet and all the bad stuff. If an adult has an emotional reaction to something that triggers them, whether it be an intimate relationship, a friendship, a parent, a coworker, people around the world, normal life, whatever they, something they see online. If something emotionally triggers them often, what does that say about them if they're emotionally triggered consistently? That they probably need to do some child to try and work. Is it all tied to, like I think I heard Gabor Mate say, if it's hysterical, it's historical. And if someone is having a hysterical reaction or some type of emotional charge around it, then there's some type of history tied to that feeling that's causing the trigger. I'm not saying we go around and we're just numb to life and we have no emotion to anything. But if something is constantly triggering you so much to focus on it. You're saying that there's some type of history or trauma that needs to be healed? Yes, and I love what you just, the Gabor Mateco, it's beautiful. Also Carl Jung said, "Norosus is just evidence of suffering." So when we think about someone who's neurotic, we all have our stuff. I had a friend years ago, he was like, "No sharp knives in the sink." Because they have this fear of whatever. And that's more of a personicity kind of trigger. But I used to get so triggered, I was sort of a rager, a fight response, took everything personally. I was so in bad shape that I would take it personally that people were not walking fast enough in front of me on the sidewalk. Dude, I did that. You're just sort of like, "I'm impatient." There's just a thing there, but it might be part of just my personality I was born with, but it's definitely about people being thoughtless and oblivious, which is the household that I grew up in. So when people are thoughtless and oblivious around me, historically, not anymore, now it's kind of lovely where if someone doesn't hold the door open for me in a simple way or whatever, I'm like, "Oh, maybe they had a lot of stuff going on." But it used to be like, "You're not like disreschecked me." Or it just even being so nauseated by humanity, which is sort of like another kind of thing. But when someone is triggered in a place, first of all, do they know that they're triggered? Because a lot of people who are like, "I don't trigger, I'm just, I just don't like it when people don't hold the door open for me." So it's the hardest thing in my work is telling somebody that they're triggered or asking them or trying to get them to be warmed up to this idea about it. I typically work with people or when I was working that they would, I started screening. I needed them to know that something was up in childhood because I would hit dead ends with people. I just want to be better with my boss and if they didn't really know that. But when someone is triggered, I think more times out of the week than not, then they might have stuff to really kind of look at. And I'm not saying people are very protective about their emotions. Like they're in a bad marriage, they're boss sucks, the traffic around L.A. Like all of it, when you kind of maybe ask them, first of all, never sort of say, "Are you triggered?" Because that's. That's triggered. Yes. There's a morality. When we ask somebody if they're triggered, it's almost like we're asking, "Are you out of control right now? So it really depends on their awareness of it, their buy-in to it, their defense, advance around it and their shame. But like if the world is crazy, the world is really triggering. But I often think which other trauma this might be the best way to talk about it is like a spinal tap thing. Like R.A.M.S. go to 11. Where to be a human, it's annoying. If you're having a bad day like you've got like a six-month-old and a carriage and someone doesn't open up the door for you and you're on two hours asleep, you're going to have feelings about it. But for childhood trauma, if you were raised by someone who was very narcissistic or thoughtless, oblivious, very selfish or very just really out of touch or whatever, there's that added energy to it, that's that added charge to it. And what was wild about doing group work is I had this realization when I started doing it, it's kind of like I would talk to my therapist, Amanda, like I think I'm triggered like 24/7. And she's just like, "That's pretty common for us." You know, we're not out of our minds. Like we still function on a level. But like. Anything you see that bothers you, it bothers you. And you hold on to it. And I was bothered. Yeah. And you hold on to it and you talk about it and you're ruminate about it and you're like, "How could they do this?" I also come from a family of complainers. So another strategy was to like, you know, if I was triggered and I'm still growing out of this, is to like to bitch about stuff. And it's just like, it's not a great way to connect with people or complain in that way. But that's like what my family was like. My friend, I hope you're enjoying this episode. And the School of Greatness drops new conversations every Monday, Wednesday and Friday around money, mindset, healing, manifestation and relationships. And if you're not yet following the show, then you're missing all of them. Please tap the follow button right now. And you'll get notified the moment every new episode drops because the next one might be exactly what you need. Now let's get back to the conversation. If someone has experienced emotional, verbal or sexual abuse in childhood, how does that shape the inner voice that someone carries with them for the rest of their life? Yeah. It's gonna affect them in a way of inner voice about am I worthy of protection? Like there was sexual abuse. Am I worthy of, you know what I mean? You can, you can rightfully so get really bitter and really brokenhearted in that way. And the inner voice stuff is, my, I learned this from my mentor is that we look at the present through the lens of our childhood. So we look at the present through the lens of childhood. We look at the now what's happening right now through the lens of what happened to us in childhood. Right. Interesting. So that, you know, like if I grew up in verbal abuse, emotional abuse and physical abuse is, this would happen to me a lot is like when I would try to be positive or trying to make a connection with somebody. And it just wasn't jelling. I would either make that personally or evidence that I was a POS. So that's looking at the lens. And in a way what's not there is just like maybe there wasn't chemistry with that person. Maybe that person had something going on. It was about me. So that inner voice becomes the inner voice is a lot of like confirming the old stuff in the present. Gosh. You know, so healing the inner child is the work. That is like because everything about the present. If it's if it's if we are spiritual experiencing the present day through the lens of all of our memories of childhood. Yeah. And if our memories of childhood were typically focused around the energy of we are bad and wrong, or we were not, we were taken advantage of, or didn't have things like everyone else had them. We were outsiders. Then that is how we look at our life today. Like, yes, it doesn't leave us until we mend that relationship. We heal those memories. We reconnect with that and either grieve the things that we didn't have, find meaning in those things, heal that relationship. Yeah. After now is the adult in the room like, hey, I got us now. You went through this, but you don't have to go to this moving forward. If we don't do those things, what I'm hearing you say is we're always going to be suffering at some level. Yes. I don't want to be sort of like, that was well said, you know, always suffering on some level, not trying to attack your language, but it's just sort of like, as we get older, things mellow, which is good. And we can learn things about awareness about like, oh, yeah, I'm triggered in that way. But you're right in the way that there is some kind of deep primal work, I think, that needs to sort of happen in that way. And that reparenting is kind of like little Patrick. It sounds goofy, but little Patrick, what did it take you back to when that person didn't open the door for you? Little Patrick, what does it take you back to when she broke up with you after six weeks because that's like a pattern for us, you know, I mean, little Patrick, what does it take you back to when you didn't get the promotion? Because childhood trumps, like these are, these are things that are like life on life's terms. But when we grow up in childhood trauma, in my 20s and a breakup, that would put me in a hole where I feel like maybe someone who didn't grow up with childhood trauma, they'd be sad. They'd be depressed for like two weeks or whatever. Then they might get back out there and whatever. We're in it for like eight, eight months. Oh, yeah. Yes. You know, we're in your office. And those are all warning, not warning signs, but it's just like there's a beautiful crisis that happens to us where trauma bites us in the ass. And what is, it's hard about that, but it also gives us the answers. Like in this book that I'm writing about this three and a half year group that I did in my early 20s, is I sat down with a fellow waiter and he would just notice, he's like, you know, you're a friend. Are you okay? What's going on with you? with him and those that was a moment where everything was catching up with me. So it feels bad when trauma bites you in the ass, but it's the best moment. It's the absolute best moment. Yeah and I really believe like the greater the pain you have, the greater the purpose is on the other side of that. If you lean into it, that's beautiful. You know, you went through intense pain, you went into the healing journey and you wanted to be a therapist or learn about human psychology and understanding how to help others going through similar or worse pain than you. Yes. So inspiring to see my therapist. This is what you do. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You know, exactly. And super inspiring. Yeah. Do people from dysfunctional childhoods unconsciously seek out partners who feel familiar, who are also dysfunctional, even if familiar means painful or disconnected. How do we break that pattern also if people do that? Great question. Absolutely. Yes. But it's a weird thing. I learned from my mentor that replicating trauma and being triggered is not a choice. It's not a choice. Not a choice. So we might, you know, we might look at the person, you know, we've all had friends. I've been that person too. It's like, why are you dating your fourth alcoholic who lives in their car? You know, why are you dating beneath you? Like what is what is that? What is up with that? We're gonna talk about that. It's not a precious thing. We don't have control over that. Two things. It's familiar, but the reparenting stuff and the group therapy stuff is sort of no one protected you from those situations. So it's not like we're attracting those folks. They usually just kind of happen to us in a way. So interesting. So it's in a way like, you know, what I mean? Like it could be wrapped up. The inner child might want to rescue a parent. The inner child might want to be available to really difficult people. You know, like this is all very patternized. But what's missing behind it is the parenting around it is, you know, and I got this from my therapist. It's like, you know, what are you doing there? That's not good for you. You know, we need that in our homes when we're kids. Not in a controlling way. Sort of like, you know, you're 10 years old and it's like, you know what, honey, it's like, you want to be friends with Joe, but Joe invites you over and he's never home. He calls you and then he gets distracted and that's like, happen seven times and you get so upset. Stop going. Or like, I love you so much. I think I want you to love yourself so much that you have friends that show up for you. You're like, oh, you know, like it's just sort of like we, no one grows up with that. So it's not so much that the person is a magnet, you know, because we can have this nasty belief, like I'm always going to be caught with people that are acting bad people or that it never works out or whatever and that this it's it's just more about it's very familiar. And I think if we ask anybody caught in that pattern, these people just show up on your doorstep. But it's not that you're a magnet. It's that you are too available to it when it happens because no one has taught you it's just sort of like, you know, I love you so much. I don't want you to take that on. And that's the message that I had to learn in therapy and then take that to my inner child because I would do that. I would date very, I mean, it's also I was in my 20s and anything goes in your 20s. But I was also dating women that I could take care of if they were a little bit messy. If I could like, if I could make them happy. And that's definitely related to mom. Wow. And they would be really out there and really messy. And that was my jam. And that's very, very common. I saw the potential of what they could be. You're like, oh, you're beautiful. You're talented. But if I can help you see it. Right. But if there's a fantasy that woman's like, oh my god, you got me to stop drinking and got on me in my roommate situation or whatever. But the goal for me is for someone to say, you're an amazing person. You are my savior. Because no one would say that before. My mom, I was trying to do that with my mom, but she could never sort of say that or whatever. You know, it's just like, we all have these strategies about how to get love. Wow. You know, so really the real main lesson for the listener, if you have a pattern of people who are difficult or messy or it never works out or whatever, it's not that you're attracting them. It's just like, no one ever told you you could look elsewhere. And why often I'm big on this this last piece is healthy people are intimidating. And they should be. Healthy people to date. Because in a way like as childhood trauma survivors, I don't know if you had this. I didn't know what to do with healthy people. Like people would be like, I'm going to go play tennis. I'm going to go to the beach this weekend and take care of care of myself. And you know, like whatever. And I'm just going to, you know, they would be doing healthy things. And I would feel, oh, that's definitely not for me. Like I would just, I would be more, you know, it'd be a funny thing if you were just like, I'm going tennis. I'm doing doing this. Going to go to the beach. But I hang out my friends. I haven't seen my friend in a while. What are you going to do this weekend Patrick? I'm like, I'm going to rip butts in a coffee shop and drink way too much coffee and read myself help books. And like people eventually I started to warm up and be more involved with healthy people doing healthy things. But like I didn't didn't grow up like that. Yeah, I guess the question around that is why does a healthy relationship often feel wrong to someone who grew up in a dysfunctional home? Yeah. Like what is a healthy person? Feel scary to someone who grew up in a dysfunctional family. You love it. Because from in my case, hyper vigilant hates the absence of a threat. Like it hates safety. Hates calmness. It hates pizza. Hates and harmony. I don't like it. Isn't that interesting? Yeah. I don't, I don't like it. I mean like it's where I felt that way. Most yeah. Like where I don't it was you know eventually that group was so good for me because it started to really kind of train me to be like, Hey, you don't have to be reactive to people's mood so much. But hyper vigilant is such a big part of us. You know, like I would, if anybody listening in the audience want to make a comment is how much do you watch your partner's emotions? How much do you watch the emotions of others? How much do you focus on that? You don't even know that's telling us. But in a way we can, we can, in a healthy relationship, we can feel bored. We can build stories in our head that things are going too good. Are you cheating on me? Like all that stuff is really I think the inner child who is hyper vigilant. Their job is to look for a threat. You know, because my wife, she's always like, we've been together for although five years now. Married last year, but many other five years. And she's always like, God, I wish I would have met you like 10 years ago. Like I wish I'd have met you. Because we would have had so much fun together. And, you know, and I said, I always tell her like, I wouldn't have been ready for you. Yeah. You would have been too peaceful for me. You admit, like I want to be in my mind. But I never, I never went for peace. Yeah. I wanted to make something that was chaotic, more peaceful. But I never went for peace. Because that makes sense. Yeah. Like peace felt boring to me. It felt like, I'm not really the end of this. And I didn't know how to communicate it. I just thought like, that's not as wrong with this person. I didn't understand it. Right. I didn't understand. What do you mean you're fine? Yeah. You're always happy. Yeah. Yeah. Right. And I always tell that I'm like, I wouldn't have been ready for you. But I would have seen you 10 years ago before we met. I would have thought maybe you're like, yeah, you're pretty, but I wanted to have been attracted to you. Yes. What's attracted? That's fascinating. To take a different energy. Right. And now I'm attracted to her because peace is the thing I crave the most. It's what I want as my baseline. Right. This stuff is so powerful. I love what you just sort of said. I wasn't attracted to healthy women. No. And the attraction I think was coming from that's for other people over there. Like in a way, I was attracted if things could get kind of messy. If you could be mad at me and I could convince you that was like a familiar place as well. But it's a fascinating thing. Like in a way, I've said to many in these conversations with clients who are talking about their dating with like sort of like I might sort of say, I would love to see you with somebody who you're intimidated by who you feel might be a little bit unattainable. Who you feel might be a little bit too calm and there's not enough crazy going on there. Or whatever for that reason. Like there's a fascinating thing about sexual attraction related to replication of this stuff. Interesting. Yep. I want to shift the two relationships with loved ones and parents and family members. Sure. I feel like there's this big movement or maybe more people are talking about it now about going no contact with a parent, sibling, a family member. When do you know if going no contact with a loved one or a family member is the right thing to do? Wow. Yeah. I have thoughts about it in a way. Ideally is when someone is really struggling with the toxic parent is they're trying to grow and change. They're trying to heal this stuff. And I find that there's usually this pattern that when they go home for Thanksgiving, when the mom texts them like seven times in a row, like why aren't you getting back to me? It is a major barrier to their healing. Like no one can really heal fully if they're in an abusive relationship. It's constantly triggered. And it's complicated because there's a present relationship with the parent now and so much history behind it. So ideally like on paper in the way that I did no contact was the idea around I need to this was the case for me like I was spinning my wheels. I was lacking progress in my therapy that I was spending money and time on because my mom would do her usual stuff and it would really just trigger me for a week straight. It was just a very you know what I mean? So my approach to no contact and I got help around it was I need to just do this work right now. And I will let you know when I'm done with this work and I made it kind of about me. Wow. And that was in my case that worked. How does she take it? We're just indignant and defiant and you don't even mean how dare you like usually how usually they all do it's not in anyone's defense. You know, I mean getting a letter like that from your child is like who's going to react strong? Like you know, like I spent my whole life yeah. Horted into you this and this. Yeah. Unless that parent is just like insightful and aware. They're are insightful and aware they probably would have had a different relationship with their child that when it caused no contact. True, but we've had people who the parent was an active alcoholic, gone into recovery, changed everything, but their child was an adult now and they paid for the therapy. So that you know, like that's there's all kinds of stuff. In the zeitgeist of this stuff, there is just sort of like that still means they weren't aware and conscious at the time when they're trying. But talking about a living amends, you know, talking about making good on something, right? So how long did you go now contact for with your mom? Three years. Wow. And then I opened up the door and then she I changed. She hadn't. Of course. More abuse, more stuff. I was much more and more in my body, more empowered. Wow. Needed to cut her off again. And then a pattern. I had it, you know, I'm in my third, no contact episode now of yeah, wow. That's the pretty much the final one sort of it's been since my son was one and it was around my son. Wow. Around that time. So there's usually for the child that trauma survivor like they have tried. And there's just like there's I you know, the to be blunt in the zeitgeist and mental health, the conversation. I'm happy to talk about it with you, but the the overall conversation is like there's just such an impasse and it's almost dumb. Not almost dumb. It is a dumb kind of a thing because the estranged parents are over here, the adult children are over here. Joining me and there's not a lot of no matter what articles or episodes come out, there is just profound deep understanding usually on the estranged parents side from you can hear it in the indignant kind of a saying. One thing that I would like to see is I personally believe when it's safe, I personally believe that a strange parent should know why, but that's complicated because that parent may not be safe to know why. So that's what I mean about the impasse kind of a thing like you know, I would want to know why as a parent, but there's this dumb story of just like, I don't know what I did. My kid just cut me off and then they won't even talk to me and then they make them that to be a moral issue. They don't even talk to me. They must be weak and brainwashed and that kind of stuff. So that's what I mean about it being kind of a complicated thing. So you had no contact for three years while you were starting to heal when you're early 20s. Yep. And then you reconnected with your mom and then a period of time when I buy you didn't no contact again. Yep. And then you reconnected again. How long was that time period the second time? I don't remember. It was like less than a year more than a year. 9/11. My sibling got married. And there was just, you know, I had changed and she hadn't. But what was a weird thing and a good thing about it as we get more and more healed, your tolerance for abuse from other people really gets lessened. So that was, you know what I mean? Like there's just like the road becomes more now or around that stuff, which is both a good thing. But you're good at creating boundaries. Yes. As you heal. Yeah. Hopefully you learn the ability to create a boundary when something is unsafe or unhealthy. Yes. And there's probably a gray area of they continue to say these things that are kind of a maybe not a fully abusive, but I just have to put up with it. And do I want to have my parents or parent in my life knowing they're going to say things that I need to accept them. Maybe I don't accept them, but I can deal with it to have them in my life or so that they're, they have grandkids in their life. But what is the line that's crossing where it's a boundary that now it's unsafe or it's emotionally abusive, not just mom or dad is kind of like a jerk. Yes. It's learning to like navigate that probably, which is tricky. Super tricky. That was really well said. And that's really the crux of it in a way that, you know, if you've changed and your parent has changed, if that was math, the equal sign after that would be superficiality. And some people we can do enough work on ourselves and we can accept that it's going to be superficial. If you haven't changed your parent has not changed. If your parent has not changed and you have, then it's like, okay, you go home to Thanksgiving dinner. Mom is still slamming things. Dad is still drinking in the basement. The siblings, everything is superficial. First of all, that's going to feel worse now that you're healed, which is a good thing. But some people in a way they can accept that and they can go to Thanksgiving dinner and being able to be loving in a way, knowing they're not going to get the family that they need from them. That's the superficiality thing. They're not going to. In any relationship, whether that's romantic or whatever, sort of like, if we, you know, it's sort of like, you always hear like, well, we broke up. We were together for five years, but we're friends now. And if there's bad blood or there's no changing or that kind of a thing, it's just, it's not going to really go that deep, you know what I mean? Yeah. So it's just in a way, but there are, it's also to point out that no contact is not for everybody. It is not, I personally view it as just a place and time for you to get some healing work and then you can go and try like in my experience. But some people have such horrific abuse that that's not even a thing. So is there ever a place or what would it take for you to go back into contact with your mom? Like what would need to happen? Yeah. And that's a beautiful question. And without me forcing it or controlling it or whatever, but I would need my parents to this is a fascinating question. When I think of people, you know, reconnecting with a parent, I would just simply need my mom to tell the truth. I wouldn't really need her to maybe get sober. I wouldn't need her to maybe change in a way, but I would be able to open up the door and have a dialogue if she's honest. If she's just kind of saying, you know what, you know, you were after me about my drinking for years and I know that things were really up and I defended myself forever or whatever. And I know that that's why you needed to do what you need to do. Just honesty. In a way, I think what's tragic about all this no contact stuff is, you know, in a way, there would be more connection without all the taking it personally with all the defensiveness. Do you mean like of sort of there's also the power dynamic. Strange parents kind of like to say, okay, I'm not perfect, but you were a hard kid. Of course. And it's just kind of like, well, there was a power dynamic. It doesn't how it works. It's not helpless. Yeah. It's a little bit like, it's like a little it's a weird analogy, but It's a lot like the CEO who's just like, yeah, I was steering the ship, but Bob from accounting was a real. Yeah. So that's why all that embezzlement happened. That's how that sounds, you know, no accountability, no accountability. No, like I was leading the thing. It was under my watch. Yeah. I take full on. I wanted this whole CEO job or whatever. And what it's a reflection upon me, what other people do. Yes. What is healing your inner child due to your nervous system? And does this have physical health benefits when someone does that inner child healing work? It definitely can. What it does to the nervous system is around, I think, space and time in a way that our triggers are just like a hurricane. You just have to weigh it out or snowstorm. You just have to wait it out. You know, like ask anybody who has childhood trauma, it's just like I was triggered by this email from my boss. And even when they're insightful, they're like, fuck, I'm not going to be in this for three days. Wow. They're only meeting one word sentence. Where's the thing on the share drive? And they're just like, you know what I mean? They know I'm going to be probably in this for three days, obsessing about this upset. My stomach's going to be upset. I'm going to be dissociated. I'm not going to know where my keys are. All of this stuff, but inner child work takes that three days to a half hour. Yeah. 20 minutes. Yeah. By you have to understand what your child is about. Mm-hmm. Like that's a lot of insightful work that a lot of it took me a while, but that's something people can really practice. What does it take you back to? What does it take me back to when my boss sends me an email? That's just one word. There's no thanks. There's no one exclamation for this. Nothing. It takes me back to always being in trouble. It takes me back to having to read somebody's mind. It takes me back to all this stuff. And a lot of people out there aren't aware of what it takes them back to. And a lot of people are like, well, is it always have to go back there? It usually kind of does. If you grew up in weird stuff, it usually does because your inner child is like, I'm in trouble again. Now I got to figure out how I'm in trouble and why I'm in trouble and then forget why and then find out again. You just always have that feeling like I'm bad, I'm wrong, I'm in trouble. That was like day-to-day life. I didn't even know how to get out. But what's beautiful and effective is to do some inner child dialogue. As that person is sitting down with their job is you're not in trouble. Our boss is just that kind of one sentence kind of guy. And at the end of the day, you know, if you can connect with the charge about a narcissistic parent or things going bad or whatever or reading somebody's mind, if you can put that over here and you're just like, well, my boss Mary is just busy and that's how she rolls. She's not a great communicator. Like there's no harm, no foul in it and you're not in trouble. That's what I really love is when people would start to kind of say like 20 minutes. I was triggered for 20 minutes, not four days, three days. That's great. I have a couple of final questions for you. How can childhood trauma affect someone's ability to manifest and create the life they want? When I often had this analogy at the end of that group that I did, I was at sea level with the rest of the world. Meaning I wasn't drowning in the deep end of the pool, flailing around, but not. I had so much shame I couldn't ask for help. I felt very slight. I started the beginning. It's been a lifetime journey to like sort of like as I'm sitting here with you, do you know what I mean? There's a place for you in the world, Patrick and you can say and do good things. So childhood trauma really separates people from that. But it feels really good to just know that you're just another bozo on the bus in a good way. But also that you have a seat at the table of opportunities that your inner child used to say, oh, that's not for me. That's for people who are smarter or brighter or whatever. You know, yes. Yeah. So it makes you believe you have a seat at the table, which is good too. Yep. And what is the link between childhood trauma and imposter syndrome? Rooed it in shame. Kind of the same thing. Imposter syndrome, it's often, I think, you know, the radio hits on Crete. You know, I'm a Crete, but I don't belong here. That really kind of is like, we identify with that song so much because I just picture a guy on the date with a beautiful woman or something like that. And he's like, I just don't belong here. You know, that's to me trauma. Imposter syndrome is just really kind of where the inner child is sort of saying, see, I don't belong here. And what I tell clients when I was practicing about if they were going to be about to join a group, I was sort of saying, pay attention to what your inner child says in the first group because usually the inner child says, I'm not messed up enough to be here or I'm too messed up to be here, meaning they will find ways to say that's for other people. I don't belong here. I'm not good looking enough, smart enough or whatever. I don't come from the right pedigree, you know what I mean or whatever. But like I grew up in bars. And I lived that way my whole life of just sort of hiding and masking and I don't belong here that kind of thing or just trying to pretend that I belong here when I really didn't. Right. So when you really feel in your core, not from a narcissistic place or an egoic place that you are just a person in the world afforded the same things. I mean, there's also privilege wrapped up in that. So it's complicated for other people as well. But that's kind of like what I think about it that you, it's a beautiful arrival when you're like, I deserve this job. Like I'm capable. I mean, I kneel the interview or whatever, but the inner child used to sort of say they didn't like me. They didn't, they didn't make eye contact. Yeah, exactly. Like you said, we, um, was the quote you said, we look at the present through the lens of our childhood. That's Amanda. Yeah, this is your mentor. Yeah, yeah. Yes. Mm-hmm. I've got a couple of final questions again for you, but I want people to check you out on social media and your website, Patrick T. Han dot com. They can get more information. Also, you have a great YouTube channel with a lot of great content. They can check out as well. Yep. Patrick T. Han official on social media, Instagram, YouTube, TikTok. And again, your YouTube has been really helpful resource for so many people. So I want to acknowledge you for, man, the trauma that you've been through, but also turning that into a healing journey and the lessons you've learned on how to share this with others who've gone through similar things or less or worse things in you on how to interpret these things, heal these things, end of a better life, showing knowledge of the work that you're doing and all the content you share as well. Thank you very much. Of course. Yeah. This is a question I ask everyone towards the end, Patrick. It's called the three truths. So imagine hypothetically, you get to live as long as you want, but it's your last day on this earth. And you get to create anything you want from this moment until that last day. Whatever reason that is hypothetical question, you have to take all of your work with you. This episode's gone. Your videos are gone. Books you create gone from the world. Yeah. But on your last day, you get to live behind three things that you know to be true, three lessons that you would share with the world. I call three truths. Wow. One of those things be for you. I think the thing that I said earlier about tenderness, about really being able to sort of for everybody out there to know that they were just like a beautiful spark and a good kid, like what you see in your own daughter. You know, I think it's sort of like when you see that innocence and whatever, because it's sort of like everything kind of is dialed into that. Like that we if we can sort of lean into that, that would be one thing. Another lesson would be. It's just kind of funny. When I was 13 years old and having a strategy and trying to cope with things, I grew up with alcoholics, but I learned something from alcoholics. And that is this kind of like it. I'll try it. And in a way like I had that same attitude, whether it was like a a bonnet or acid or drinking in the woods or whatever, but that same energy was sort of like it. I'll try undergraduate. Like I'll apply for this job. So there is, you know, it's not like you can wait until you feel like you can take a risk. You just have to sort of throw something against the wall. And even if you look foolish is being able to do that. And that's something I weirdly feel grateful for the trauma that I went through. I'll try anything. You know, whether that was like when the therapist was like, you know, a few years later, like do you want to try, you know, when I'm in a 14, do you want to try blotter acid? I'm like, yeah. You know, when the therapist like you want to do a three and a half year child to trauma, yeah, why not? Try it out. Yeah, yeah. Okay. That's the stuff I'm doing. And I'm big on this. And I think in social media, I think social media does things to us that is dark. And in a way, I would, I want childhood trauma survivors. And they may not be ready, which I get. I wasn't ready. I was not ready to hear things like positivity. I was not ready to hear things like energy work or or or spirituality. There was such a reaction to that stuff from many different reasons. But what I'm trying to say is like, you know, I don't think it lands well. But I want childhood trauma survivors. to look for the good and humanity in a way because to their experience and their right humanity got ruined. Trust in people and that kind of a thing. I think social media really amps that up with the way that we go after people and sometimes we have the, you know, it's good to go after people or whatever, but it's a device that it becomes entertainment for the downfall of humanity where I want people to sort of, you know, look around for people's smiles as goofy as that sound. You know, look around for the nice and I was walking out of Starbucks right out of here and there was this like inner interchange of this woman coming in and I was coming out and she held the door. She was like, sir, you know, it was really like whimsical. It was like really fun kind of a thing. Like, I'd love for that. I'd love that. I'd love seeing families out there and join each other. So do you know what I mean? But like when I was really wounded, that was just like evidence that I couldn't have that or something like that. So I want people to lean into it and force themselves a little bit. That's beautiful. Patrick, the final question, what's your definition of greatness? The definition of greatness is not just knowing that your parents were wrong about you, however that looks, but surpassing how you feel about you. So greatness, you know what I mean? The work that I do is I love, I love sitting with you, I love talking about this stuff, but my real joy comes from again knowing that I was a good kid. Oh, that's beautiful. Patrick, thank you so much. Thank you. Wonderful. My friend, I hope you're enjoying this episode right now because we are on a mission to impact a hundred million lives every single week and every follow here on this podcast helps us reach more people. Make sure to hit the follow at the top of this show's page right now. It's the single biggest thing that you can do to support the show and the impact of us reaching you every single time we have new episodes. I appreciate you and I can't wait to see you in the next episode. I hope you enjoyed today's episode and it inspired you on your journey towards greatness. Make sure to check out the show notes in the description for a full rundown of today's episode with all the important links. 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