The Trap of People-Pleasing

Well, hey, friends, if you've listened to this podcast for any length of time, you know about our church leaders conference, and it's coming up again next year, April 26, 27, and 28, 29. Identical conference is two different times so that we can serve more people, and so if you are a pastor, if you are a deacon, you are an elder, you are a layperson in the church using your gifts in any capacity to build up the church. This is for you, by the church, for the church, and we would love to serve you in those two days. So, the team asked me to make this announcement, we are terrible at scarcity tactic about any kind of sales manipulation, we are terrible at it, but I do want you to know. November 6, the price will go up, and so if you want to sign up, it will be a little bit cheaper if you do so before November 6, we will take you any time we would love to serve you. We will have some incredible main stage content, we will have a ton of fun, we will worship in ways that are really, really meaningful, we will have breakouts, almost 60 breakouts for people doing very specific things in the ministry from our church to your church, and it's our hope that when you leave, you will be encouraged, you will have worshiped, you will have met with Jesus, you will be inspired, you will feel equipped, and you will really be excited to get back to your church, to use the gifts that God gave you to build up the church. If you want to know more, you want to sign up, you can go to CLC2027, CLC2027.com, and we would love to see you. If it works out for you and your church, we would love to serve you those two days. Well, hey friends, welcome back to the Watermark Church Leadership Podcast, a conversation with church leaders, four church leaders, my name is John McGee, and I'm joined in the studio by my good friend, Scott Kidersha. Welcome back, brother. It's going to be back, thanks for having me. It's been a few minutes. Yeah, yeah, probably about eight years, I think I don't know, I don't know how long it's been. Eight years. Yes. It's not because we don't like you. My fault. I left you. You did. Like Demis, he left. You abandoned. But you're back. So, Scott was, you know, here on staff at Watermark Forever helped us start the marriage ministry. You and I worked together really, really closely. You went to Harris Creek with JP and John Elmore, and are back now on the Watermark Resources team helping us serve churches with premiered and newlywed ministry, and also just generally helping churches. So we get to work together again, and now we're back in the studio, so I have a full circle moment. Thanks for having me back. And to be back. I mean, it's some of these stories I can tell. I'll just start with the most recent. We were just in Atlanta together, so kind of a leadership event, people who were doing many of the same things that we were doing. And so there was, I don't know, there probably was a hundred plus people in the room. We knew what percentage they think you'd know, maybe I don't have 60%. So two day event, and we were talking about, hey, let's just make the most of this time. Let's don't just huddle up. Let's try to meet everybody that we possibly can. And someone just, I don't even know who it was, said, hey, what was, what was the price? I want to gift card for Amazon. But how much was it? A hundred bucks. I don't know, I don't know. They didn't tell me what it was going to be. That's what it was. That's what it was. Yeah. If you can name every person, if you can, like tomorrow, if you can stand up and name every single person cold, you'll get a card, some price. That's what it was. I didn't tell you what it was. So I would ask for more, by the way, but so Scott just stood up and went around this little auditorium and named every single person. It was so cool. People cheered and you were the mascot of the event. And so that's pretty emblematic of you, just knowing people's names, seeing them, encouraging them. So we're not talking about name, memorization today, talking about something a little bit different. We're going to talk about people pleasing. And something I think you've been kind of talking and thinking about recently. So why are you so passionate about it and why did you want to talk about this? Yeah, I mean, I'm good at naming names and remembering faces. I'm great at being a people pleaser. Crush it. Yeah, I crush it. And now it's something I'm like excited about, thankful for. It's something that's been like a challenge in my life, first far back as I can remember. I'm going to be a follower of Christ since 1998 since I was 24 years old. I've been married since 2001. I've been a dad since 2004, four young men. But I've been a people pleaser first far back as I can remember. Where I just, you know, worshiped my reputation. I care so much about what people think of me, how I'm perceived. It has crushed me at times. You know, and it comes out, ministry, it comes out personally, it comes out, it affects my marriage and affects my parenting. And I feel like sadly in some ways I'm an expert in people pleasing, not from a book knowledge side, but from the experience side. And I'm passionate about it because I see how it affects me and I've seen how it affects many others. That's good. And I care about it. And I've also grown a lot. It's not like I'm just sitting here, somebody who's, who's a life is 10. Because of it, I'm somebody whose life almost tanked. But now I'm on the other side and I care deeply about this and want to see others not make the same mistakes I have. I love it. Okay. So people pleasing, you know, that can mean a lot of things to a lot of different people. Tell me what you mean by that and tell me why we should even care. Yeah, there's probably more scientific explanations than this, but basically it's a desire to please others more than God. You know, Galatians 110, are we going to choose to please God or please man? We can't. Do both. We choose to please others. We're placing really ourselves over God. We're carrying more about what others think about us. We're carrying more about how others perceive us more than what God already says about us. Yeah. And it's Galatians 110. It's a misplaced identity, misplaced worth, and carrying more about others in ourselves, which is really carrying, like I just care so much about myself and what others think that I just lose sight of what God says and who God says I really am. Yeah. Okay, so what's a, like a great, so, so what, what's the, what's the danger there? Well, I mean, am I, here's what it's looked like in my life is I'm going to work harder than anyone else. I'm going to stay up later. I'm going to see it as a badge of honor that I'm going to work really late. I'm going to get up early. I'm, I'm not going to take a real day off. I'm going to neglect relationships at times. I'm going to work my tail to the bone and that there's something about hard work. Yeah. We're not like devaluing hard work. Hard work is important. Uh, but it's going to cause me to neglect my health. It's going to cause me to neglect rest. My brain never turns off. It's going to cause me at times to neglect time with my spouse, my kids, my friends because I'm thinking of work all the time. It's like a badge of honor that says, you know, I work harder than you and therefore I'm better than you. Uh, it leads me to compromise convictions at times because I'm more worried about pleasing others and honoring God. And it, it plays out in all kinds of different ways. And it can't only it leads us to potentially to tank our lives, our families, our health. It can affect everything in our lives if we're not careful about it. And you know, I'd say like I say I'm an expert on it. I put a lot of thought into it out of desperation because I've seen that that, you know, kind of, this, this led me in some ways in 2020 when I left my job here. And I know we joked about me deserting you and going to Waco. Oh, I was joking. Yeah. But yeah, there was there was some desert part of the reason I quit is because I saw the way that my people pleasing was affecting my job here. Wow. And I was working way too much and I had to make a change. And, uh, and a fresh start allowed me to in some ways start over because it was affecting so much of my health and my family and, and I needed to start over in some ways. That's good. Yeah. Lest you think it's just about me. I mean, this is something that, let me share a couple of ways that I think it affects others. And so I wrote these down, you know, I did this as a, as a breakout at CLC and, uh, it's an all play. Like this is something that affects every one of us. So I wrote some of these questions down. I had everyone play along with me. And so, you know, as you're watching, this might be, you know, raise your proverbial hand as I read these. So, you know, have you ever said yes when you meant to say no, have you ever delayed a hard conversation? Yeah. And so I've done that with you before, John, where I've not wanted to have a hard conversation with you because I cared too much. What do you thought of them? Uh, it's, uh, changing a decision because of one person's opinion, if ever done that, raise your hand. Do you avoid bringing up things that bother you or with which you disagree because you don't want to get into a conflict? And so you know you need to bring something up, but you avoid it. And so you don't bring it up because you care too much what other people think. Do you worry about hurting other people's feelings and so you don't say anything because you don't want to hurt anyone? Would you rather be dishonest with certain individuals then face rejection from them? That comes up in family meetings or with kids or with your spouse or with friends. Do you feel guilty when you say no? Do you apologize often even for things with which you are not responsible? And so I find myself doing that sometimes with my wife where I'm like, I apologize for things, I'm like, why am I saying I'm sorry right now? And it's just because I want to, I want to please my wife. I want to, I want her to be disappointed in that way. And so, you know, by the time you read through that list, of course everyone's raised their hand multiple times. This is an all play. It affects every single one of us. Yeah. It's good. I think, yeah, I don't think anybody, I, I think this morning I was praying about this episode and I was thinking, you know, I don't know that this is my, my ditch and I actually thought about. Um. The way it shows up for me. So and it's really similar to you actually it's Fascinating to to think back over a three-four-year period about a couple different people and And I remember talking to a friend and saying I don't think these two people Like me and and I just said and I remember asking their counsel It's like I'm okay with that. You know, here's what I think they don't like me. I'm really I'm totally fine Like I'm losing no sleep over it. Do you think I need to go talk to him? I think you're good Like I think it's just a you know a difference of the way you look at the world and wiring great So didn't bother me They didn't like me. Well fast-forward You know a couple of years and it wasn't they didn't one of them didn't like me didn't think I was doing a good job And that one set me for a loop and and it's the same the same person But they they just look like I don't I don't think you're basically At some version of this that you're not you're not good at what you do What you know, I just I couldn't believe I had no problem. They didn't like me But to say that I was you know, not not great at what I did that Expose something in me and I and I thought about that today. I go what yeah, I guess I actually do strong It wouldn't it wouldn't bothered me right had I'm not struggled with that I go well, I can I can learn I can ask feedback or something and or I can also just be settled and go I Respect your opinion, but I think I'm okay here, and I would have been fine But I in that moment I needed I wanted that person To just validate me and go hey you're you're doing great and because I didn't get that I'm used to getting that it threw me for a loop And so I was like yeah, I'm actually what you think it was what was it about his thoughts about your performance at Yeah, well, there's something there's something in me and that's actually a question I'd love to ask you is why why do we do this? What's driving it? But I think what that exposed was yeah, just this need for like respect and people to go hey You're you're fantastic, and I can't I had a difficulty in that moment operating in a world where not everybody that I knew thought I was great. Yeah, I was I was okay if not everybody I knew thought they liked me personally, but I wasn't okay Unless everybody I knew you know, I knew you see the kind of you've seen a codependent person go Hi, I'm okay as long as everybody else is okay It was it was a version of that didn't pop up very often, but it that one got me and I was okay I think I think in some in some way whether we're honest about it or not all of a struggle at some level So so can I can I ask you that question? Why do you think why do you think we struggle with people pleasing? Yeah, well, I mean it really comes down to a couple different things like we either Where is so much about what other people think so either like our reputation? Yeah, and so man What does he say this guy? What does he say about you to others? Yeah, and maybe that's eating at you that like it was What's what's like the conversations behind closed doors about John when he talks about you so your reputation are approval Second, it could be like you're worth yeah, and value and so John's on doing a good job then What does that say about his value is he able to do the job that he's doing and so it could be that it could be You know that this are you willing to have the hard conversation with him? Is there a fear in you of? you know of pushing back and saying what is it about? The job that I did and so maybe you don't want to engage and I don't perceive that in you We're not afraid to die there was something issue. Yeah, that's usually not your challenge But but I think it's probably that like man, what do they say about it? What you wrote? Yeah, yeah, I think it's I think I'm so I'm sure you so yeah, and I think to you know one of things we didn't We talked about indecisiveness. We talked about not having hard conversations like Interpersonally here, and I do think I mean that you know leadership is in the podcast We're talking to a lot of people who are leading often leading in the church. They've got some some leadership mantle and responsibility and Now listen being aware of other people's thoughts feelings That that's important that really is you need to understand you don't want to be disconnected emotionally or intellectually from those that you lead but what you've seen this you've seen this in leaders where they know the right thing to do They know the right thing to do and it's going to disappoint people, you know, and that whole adage leadership is disappointing people at a rate that they can You know receive you know or metabolize or handle and Any that's what that's what it is You know leadership is a commitment to being misunderstood. You're gonna have to do things that you know or write from the seat that you sit in and Others might not think you're awesome. They might not think you're great They might not think you're smart. They might not think you care about them, but you know because of this and you're in it's a right thing to do And that's why I think is it's just so damn one of the many reasons why this is so dangerous forget just kind of your inner peace You want to What what does it do? How about this when you are struggling with this? What does the inside look like for you? Yeah, let me tell let's talk about like why it's so dangerous And I want to talk about the convictions of why yeah, why it affects it so You know, I heard this quote Eric Geiger pastor at Mariners church says, you know if you want a job that's gonna make everyone happy Don't be a leader cell ice cream Right and and I've sold ice cream before I've been in ice cream. Yeah, that's amazing At a store or like an ice cream. Oh, that's amazing. What is can you are you able to say who you worked for? Oh, it was so long ago. I don't remember that it was like a it's like a one-off. It was it was a mask and a wrap Okay, but I'm gonna have massive forms from all that scooping ice cream But even then you don't you can't make everyone happy because you don't it's too expensive. You're Scoop is too small Yes, no matter what you do, you're not gonna make people happy like whatever we do and so But but here here's one of the challenges with with people pleasing is like we think it's a cute pet sin Like we look at the list of of sins that are that are really dangerous, you know in fidelity murder You know pornography will kill a marriage like all of these things and like those are the more significant sense and then we're like Oh, you know people pleasing is like it's like gossip. It's like being like a lack of gratitude And we'd like treated as this little pet sin, but but it's it's Proverbs 29 25 the fear of man Lays a snare, but whoever trusts in the Lord is safe. It is a snare. It's a trap. It is dangerous And here it leads to to so many different problems Issues in your life, and so I wrote down a bunch of them that the leads to emotional exhaustion and burn out It leads us to work too hard. I've talked about that before it leads us to resent other people Especially the people who ask us to do things and so they ask us to do things and I say yes Even though I say yes, I'm frustrated at other people. I've lived that movie. Yeah, yeah, yeah So we don't rebuke others because we're afraid of hurting them And so I let a discipleship group of guys and ask this question to the guys would you rather Rebuke others or be review 10 guys in the group every one of them said they'd rather be rebuked by someone else than Rebuke another person and so you know, you'd rather be Challenge by someone else than challenging another person. Yeah, every one of us in the group Okay, and then it leads us to not share the gospel And this is you know, I said this is one that's effective. It's good. I think it's good So many of us that we don't share the gospel because we're afraid of getting rejected. I look stupid Yeah, I don't want to look stupid. I'll be embarrassed And so we we hold back from sharing really sharing the most important thing that we can share. It's good Yeah, that's really good. It's good. Okay, so fix it for us man. Okay, we're thoroughly convinced. We're all messed up. We're all people pleasers What's the way what's the way forward? Yeah, I mean first you got to figure out why you do it So I mean, there's certainly more than three different reasons why we people please But but if I have to think about three reasons here's here's three you know one is you worry so much about what other people think about you And so your reputation you worship your reputation and so if that's you First you've got to say kid. What does God say about who I am? You are already approved. You've got to remember Jesus died for your sins. God sent his son Jesus for you You are you are good enough not because of anything you have done But God has already approved you you are approved because of Jesus. It's done. It is paid for finished You don't have to do enough be good enough Say yes to enough to earn your value. It is finished. It is done. You are approved Okay, so if you're trying to earn your approval You can't and so don't say yes to earn approval You're already approved. Yeah, pretty gospel to yourself. Yeah, all the time. Yeah, every day Second, you know, is a group of people this is the one that I'm in part of is like I say yes all the time because there's just something that like I've got to prove myself I don't I don't know what it is. I don't know if it's a dad issue I don't know if it's a you know my dad died when I was young grew up with stepdad and There's something in me that I'm that I'm still trying to wrestle through that you know, it could be my Wiring that I'm an achiever. I love to get stuff done And so I say yes like to check a box to do a big achievement is yeah It's like this huge accomplishment. And so I love to get stuff done it. So I say yes to so many things And you know, it's like I finished one thing and it's it's I'm on to the next you know finish a book I'm thinking about the next book finish a project. I'm on to the next project. It's like this achiever thing in me That leaves me to say yes over and over again. And uh and if that's you this is me There's value and rest there's value and saying no again Remember that that I can't be good enough. I can't get enough done It is paid in full. You know, I cannot um Accomplish enough to be good enough. And I've got to remember that again preach the gospel to myself. The root cause is different, but the solution is the same. Remember that Jesus has paid the price. I can't be good enough to earn it and I've got to rest in his love for me and not try to earn or strive to earn approval. Third, the group of people out there that says yes all the time because they just don't want to have the hard conversation. And, you know, they say yes and they compromise. They say yes because they don't want to disappoint, they don't want to engage in the conversation they need to have. And so for that person, they need to remember conflicts and hard conversations are not about thing. They're a good thing. Then you're never going to have peace unless you actually have the conversations you need to have. I think about Romans 12-18. If it is possible as far as it depends on you, live a peace with everyone. And so by avoiding the hard conversation by saying yes to everything, you're not accomplishing anything. You're just like sweeping it under the rug and it's and it's all that does is just create a bigger pile. It doesn't solve anything. That's right. That's right. It's really good, man. Okay, so we're convinced we don't want to do that. Yeah. Help us. Yeah. I mean, the biggest thing is what you said a few moments ago. I just have to remind myself of the gospel constantly. You know, and that's the love Godboard that myself is the biggest thing. And you know, I shared in the beginning, I was saved in 1998. And my background, I did everything the world had to offer. Sex, drugs, porn, drinking, stealing, found porn when I was seven years old, full on addicted. By the time I was 12 and lived out everything I saw in porn, suicidal when I was in my early 20s. And my friend will share the gospel with me when I was 22 years old. First time I heard the gospel. And save two years later. Scales fell off my eyes like Paul describes and acts nine. You know, I went from death to life and I never want to get over that. You know, that God would choose to save me when I think about all the stuff I have done for two years. It took me two years to believe that Christ death was sufficient for me. That God believed Christ death was sufficient for you or for others. And I had done too much. And I try to remind myself of the gospel every day. And I don't do it every day, but as often as I can, to remind myself that the Christ died for my sins and that I want to love God more than myself. And so what does it take to remind yourself of that? Whether it's worship music, whether it's getting underneath every day and reminding yourself of what God has done for you. It could be surrounding yourself by people who remind you of truth. It could be memorizing scripture. I don't care what it takes, but I've got to remind myself constantly of what's right and true. The UK video that the team put together, there's a line in there, Steven Foster says that he's captivated by Jesus. And he says, Jesus is like a diamond that every time you look at him, it's like looking at him in a new way. The light hits it in a different way and you see a different side of the diamond. You see a different side of Jesus. And that's what I want it to be like. Like, I believe that if we see Jesus in that way, if we see the gospel in that way, that we will be more captivated by Jesus that we will ourselves. It's good. And so that's the first and primary way. You don't focus on overcoming people pleasing by focusing on people pleasing. You ever come people pleasing by focusing on Jesus, loving Jesus and reminding yourself of truth. That's good. That's really good. Yeah. You know, for me, Scotty is every morning, just kind of one of the questions I'll ask myself, which is, which is to lead to a commitment is, hey, do I want to be faithful or am I famous? You know, and yeah, my famous, it's interesting. I don't mean like broadly. I mean, like, actually back to that illustration I gave, like those around me, I want them to go, hey, you're really good at what you do. You know, we appreciate what you do. You're smart. You're hardworking. You're creative. Whatever those kinds of things are, do I want to be faithful? I really want to be that, you know. And I think about the end of Hebrews 11. Yeah. After all, the hall of faith, it's these people who were just faithful, but they're not named. Yeah. We don't know their names. And so every morning I just kind of start myself, I start my day by asking myself that question and just trying to get my soul to a spot where I want to, I'm going to, I'm going to leave this house. And I want to operate in a way that, I don't care if I'm named like these people. And I just want to be faithful. So when I come back, you know, I'm going to be back in this house and I'm going to lay down, I'm a bed. I go, how is faithful? Like, do people notice? Well, maybe, hopefully, but it's okay. If not, it's really okay. If not, and it's okay if I'm even misunderstood, I was faithful today. And it's a daily, you know, it's a daily fight. It really is. And, but there is incredible peace when something rolls against you or someone doesn't recognize you. You don't please people. You disappoint. You frustrate those kinds of people. I just, I'm kind of not doing this for you, man. I'm doing it for Jesus. So the one that I'm captivated by, I already decided that today and I'll decide it again tomorrow. And it's a much better way to live. And then those who live under you don't have to, to work under your scramble and all the weird energy that you bring. There's like, there's peace, right? There's clarity. There's vision that they can follow. Not, not anxiousness there because you're trying to get something from somebody else. You're good. And now you can lead out of that place. And so, but it's hard. It's daily. It's not, it's not one podcast. And one verse, it's going to be a daily fight. So it's good, brother. So good, man, any, I'll give you less words, any less, any less thoughts? One, I think this is an all play for, I said that in the beginning, but, you know, when I did this break out at CLC, the room was, I had 22 year olds and 75 year olds. And it's, it's something that's pervasive across all generations. And I love that everyone's, you know, realizes something that I've got to address and work on. And it's not just this cute little sin. It was fun to see so many people in that room realize something I need to address. And, and it doesn't just affect ministry. It affects the way that we live our lives. It's affected my marriage. It's affected my family. We a quick story. We went to go look at some new iPhones a couple days ago. And it even affects financial decisions. And, um, years ago, when I would have gone into that store, I would have probably walked out with four new iPhones for, for our family. Yeah. But before we went in, knowing my tendency to people, please, prayed before we went in and said, Lord, would you protect us for making a decision that would be foolish, rash, that would be guided by people pleasing to. And, uh, because I know what I would do is I would say yes to the phone because I didn't want to disappoint the salesman. And so we're in Tennessee, went to the AT&T store. And the guy was great. He was so kind, helpful. I love to get this guy a sale of four phones. But we didn't like the price. And we didn't like the deal they had going on. And so we walked away. And I was like, thank, thank, thank you, Lord. This is, this is some victory in people pleasing, uh, because I know in the past, I did not want to let this gentleman down. And so it affects every part of our lives. And so, you know, this is like, don't just look at it through the lens of ministry. It's going to affect every part of your life. You know, your family, your finances, your kids, you know, it's, it's Psalm 139, 23 and 24. And you may think it only affects part of your life. But asking God, help me see where this affects me because it probably affects you more deeply than you realize. And as I've spent time thinking about this work in this talk, realizing how much has affected my life, I've realized it's affected me more deeply than I realized. And it's also led me to be more dependent than I realized I needed to be where I've had to depend on God more than than I knew I needed to. And it's been, it's been a big win to invite God into help me in every area of my life because I don't want to be a people pleaser in any way. I want to please God, not please others. It's good. It's a great place to end. I'm thinking about your poor kids now with flip phones. They still don't have phones, not at all. They're playing with their phone. I love just pre-living it. That was the best practice. Yeah. And it's a daily fight. Brother, thanks for sharing just kind of your journey and your wisdom with us. There's a lot there to walk away with. So, friends, thanks so much for listening. And, you know, if you're using your gifts to build up the church in any capacity, we just hold you in high regard. If we can help you, if you've got questions, if you got ideas for future episodes, you can always reach us at CLP at Watermark.org. CLP at Watermark.org. And we'll talk to you again next time.