The Toll of Jury Duty: The Lindsay Clancy Trial

As a warning, some of this content contains graphic and disturbing details, including references to the killing of children. So please listen or watch with care. We'll have resources for you at the end of the episode. You know, I remember the moment the 911 call played in court. I don't think there was a single person who didn't feel or look emotional. What was that like for you? It was heartbreaking, heart-wrenching. It was devastating, too. And it hurt physically to hear somebody have that much pain and know why they had that pain. And it was something that, you know, we weren't expecting it to be like that. It wasn't a sound that anybody ever had heard before. You know, that was. It was so deep, the anguish, the pain. And it's, you know, people scream all the time. And this was completely different. And it was difficult. And we had hoped that we would never have to hear it again. And we did. That was Paula Devlin, a juror who served on the Commonwealth v. Lindsay Clancy. I sat down with Paula to better understand the complexity of deliberating on such a high-profile and highly contested case. But there was something else that came through in my conversation with her. The mental and emotional sacrifice of serving on a jury like this. I'm CBS News correspondent Chanel Call. And in this special episode of Case by Case, we're really getting into what it takes to serve on a high-stakes jury. Lindsay Clancy, of course, is the Duxbury mother tried for killing her three young children, Cora, Dawson, and Callan. This case ended. in a mistrial. And it was marked by some pretty intense testimonies and graphic evidence. This includes autopsy photos of eight-month-old Callan Clancy and that chilly 911 call that Lindsay's ex-husband Patrick made on the night of the killings. If Paula's experience here is any indication, the details of this case will stick with everyone in the courtroom for a very long time. Now, each year, about 15 million people here in the U.S. are summoned for jury duty. This active. civic responsibility can really expose everyday Americans to some disturbing evidence from some of the most brutal crimes across the country. We've seen what grueling trials can really do to witnesses, the families of victims, and sometimes even those on trial themselves. But what about the jurors who also experienced some of the darkest details? Today, we're joined by Dr. Michelle de Blasi, the chief of inpatient psychiatry at Tufts Medical Center in Boston. Dr. de Blasi monitored the Clancy case closely, just like a lot of us, and she offered her expertise to this growing conversation around mental health. Dr. de Blasi, thank you so much for being here with us today. Thanks for having me, Chanel. There's so much that I want to get into here, but, you know, being a Boston-based psychiatrist, I can only imagine how often the Clancy case was discussed in your professional circles, around the water cooler, in your group chats. I mean, what has it been like for you following this case? Yeah, you know, I think a lot of people have been talking about it, you know, in the professional offices, just like they are outside of it. I mean, this is a really horrific crime, but it's something that involves mental health. And so a lot of people have been talking about it, talking about the case, and discussing those things. It's also a rare situation where, you know, in psychiatry, we don't often see a lot of violent crimes. In fact, we know that people with serious mental illness often. Oftentimes are actually more the victims of crimes versus the perpetrators. And so this is a very rare situation. And so it's causing a lot of people to be talking about it. That's so interesting to me. So from a mental health perspective, like, I wonder how those conversations were going, because I remember going into this story on day one of the trial. I don't think anybody anticipated that people were going to be so sympathetic and compassionate in large part to a woman who was in the hospital, who was in the hospital, who was in the hospital, who was in the hospital. I think that it's brought in a lot of polarizing views because a lot of people are talking about mental health and having compassion now for people with mental health issues, especially women who are postpartum. And so in some ways, it's positive in terms that people are talking now about mental health and what resources we have available and how many women, for example, are impacted by postpartum mental health issues. So in that way, it is positive despite such a horrific situation and horrific crime. You know, something that I remember, Paula, that juror that we just heard from telling me, is the emotional reaction that Lindsay Clancy had so many different times during this trial. But, you know, namely when the 911 call happened, when those autopsy photos happened. But then, you know, the judge says, you've got to leave the emotions aside. You've got to look at the facts. And the evidence here. But she couldn't forget some of those reactions. I mean, are there moments that stuck out to you during this trial? And how do you see some of those moments really impacting the jurors' long-term post-trial? You know, I think the biggest moments that are really going to be impactful for the jurors were watching real, raw emotion. You know, seeing Lindsay break down in court, crying, sobbing. It's impossible not to have sort of a human, natural reaction to that. Now, everybody's reaction can be different. I mean, some people can feel very empathic, feel like they feel sorry for her, while other people may be, you know, feeling angry or like, how could she have that reaction after doing something so terrible? Yeah, and, you know, another thing that Paula told me over the course of this weekend, because we were sort of on and off the phone several times, and she was telling me how sometimes it'll come and go in waves. Like, she'll feel fine, and then another moment, she'll be alone in her bedroom, and she'll remember, or something, it'll trigger a feeling, an emotion. So, what do you tell a juror who may be having some pretty big, loud feelings in response to those really emotional, traumatic moments during trial? I think it's important for the jurors to really be self-reflective and recognize that if they're having a hard time managing their emotions, or even a hard time functioning or processing everything that happened, that they really should seek out help from a professional or talk about these issues, rather than to just sort of brush them aside. You know, the story is never about us reporters, but we were also in the room for, you know, much of this trial and saw many of these traumatic moments. And I myself remember not being able to sleep without the lights on during the early days of this trial when we were seeing all of that graphic testimony, the evidence, the 911 call. And when I spoke to Paula, she actually told me about how some of that weighed on her at even the most unexpected moments outside the courtroom. She talked about this in an interview with me a couple of days ago. Take a listen. Well, during the trial, when I could, at lunchtime, I would go to the beach. We were very close to the ocean from where the courthouse was. And there was a beach that I would go to, and it had a playground. And I couldn't look at the families. I just couldn't look at the families. And I didn't realize that at first, but when I did, I had that same feeling like you just had when I said it out loud. It just is something that changes inside of you. I hope that I can look at families and see the joy that they're having again. I just wonder, doctor, have you seen this kind of reaction before? I have. When you get selected to be a juror, sometimes people don't necessarily realize how much of an impact they can have on them and a lingering impact. What can happen is you can actually have post-traumatic stress disorder symptoms called secondary trauma that actually happen after you've gone through this experience where you may even, out of nowhere, find yourself having flashbacks about what happened or not being able to think like you used to think about families, for example, or having nightmares about things. And so it's a very real experience that can be very negatively impactful for people. I've always dreamed of being able to order my coffee in Italian like a local instead of just pointing at the menu and hoping for the best. There's something about speaking another language with real confidence that opens up a whole new world of experiences. That's why I'm so excited about Rosetta Stone Sapphire. It's their biggest launch in over a decade. 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This gets you access to Rosetta Stone Sapphire in 25 languages. Visit rosettastone.com slash rs10 to redeem your 20% off. That's rosettastone.com slash rs10. There are jurors that I'm sure are going through like recalibrating moments, replaying moments in their head, and also perhaps asking themselves, did we ask all the right questions? Did we look at all the things we needed to look at? There must be a sense of, did we do the right thing when the stakes are so high? Absolutely. You know, when you're in such a high stakes case like this, it's very difficult. Being a juror and feeling like you're having all these potential emotional reactions and hearing all this sort of gruesome details while also trying to maintain your responsibility and being very logical and thinking through all the data. And that's a very hard task to take on and a huge responsibility. And a lot of jurors feel the weight of that. And that can be very difficult to process even during the trial, but also afterwards and reflecting. And I think that's actually a really fascinating point because, you know, for people that are watching or listening to this and don't remember, this pool of jurors were not sequestered, right? They went home every night and they couldn't talk about this. They couldn't debrief with their friends, their family, their loved ones after work, which for a lot of us is the way that we process something. So in essence, you're sort of holding all this in for so long. Absolutely. I think that's the most difficult part, honestly, of being a juror is having to go through so many different emotions and feelings and trying to sift through all this data and all this violence and then not being able to actually talk to anyone about it. Because what helps us as human beings is to be able to process and to be able to get it off our chest, talk about what's challenging for us, what's difficult for us. And even if someone isn't even responding a lot back, just by talking about it, we know that that's sort of a cathartic experience and people actually get therapeutic benefit from that. So when you're not able to do that, you're bottling everything up inside. And that can really be very difficult and have long-lasting impact. Yeah. And speaking of a long-lasting impact, I mean, this study, I believe it was from 2016, found that half of jurors had trauma-related symptoms. And those, symptoms can look like anxiety, you know, you can feel emotionally drained, you know, having sleep issues. And the fact that this can persist for months, I think is really troubling. I mean, are there any tells or red flags for, you know, people who might experience some of those symptoms more than others? Are some people more susceptible? You know, I do think that some people are more susceptible to having traumatic experiences after the case. You know, it's impossible to really tell exactly who's going to be more susceptible. And I think that's a really important thing. impacted compared to somebody else. But we do know that there's some things that raise the risk of having sort of secondary trauma. So things like having traumatic experiences that have happened to you. We also know that women, interestingly enough, are at a slightly higher risk compared to men to develop secondary trauma. So it's interesting to me that you talked about women, you know, potentially being affected more than men. I do want to mention the jury makeup here because there were nine women who were affected more than men. And I think that's a women deliberating on this jury and three men. Do you see any sort of unique symptoms with women in cases like this? You know, I think that both men and women can develop secondary trauma. It's really difficult to say whether women or men are going to experience it in different ways, because really everyone may experience it in different ways, whether that's crying more, disrupted sleep, having flashbacks or memories, feeling really on edge. So it's really a unique thing for each individual as to how it's going to impact them potentially. And without doubt, deliberations, you know, seven days of deliberations were stressful. And that same study also noted that that could be a factor related to juror stress. Yeah. So, I mean, I think the fact that the trial went on for so long, it really can actually cause secondary trauma, but also vicarious trauma. And vicarious trauma, is really when over time, your perception of things or the built up cortisol release in your body, the stress actually starts to impact your thinking. And so as the trial goes on longer, you can actually have more of an impact on you and have more of a stress response to things that you've been listening to and hearing. So you're like absorbing a lot of the trauma yourself. So is there any data to us about whether there are some people who are able to bounce back faster than others? Yeah. You know, I do think that certain people are able to bounce back better than other people. We don't exactly know who they are, but certainly people who have maybe done, you know, pretty extensive therapy work themselves have really strong coping strategies. People that are able to sort of develop vicarious resilience rather than trauma, people who are more likely to see things through the lens of hope. Or focusing on the resilience of people who may be testifying or first responders or the work that the people in the court are doing to kind of bring justice, focusing on the medical health professionals and the great work they've done. So if you're able to sort of view things in sort of a hopeful way, it can actually help to develop better vicarious resilience rather than substantial trauma. That makes a lot of sense, but I think is probably a pretty challenging ask when you consider, you know, just the traumatic nature of all of the evidence, of all of the testimony here, including, of course, the visit that the jurors actually did. They actually visited the home, the Clancy family home where the children were killed. They went to the CVS where Patrick went to pick up medications. They went to 3V, the restaurant where Patrick Clancy went to go pick up dinner that night. And I'm just curious, what kind of effect can that have on the jurors' mental health? Yeah, I mean, when you're actually physically seeing, you know, where the crime happened or where people lived, it really kind of hits at a very deep level and a deep cord. And it makes it very real and less like hypothetical. And so what that does is it actually increases your risk to develop sort of secondary trauma because you're so, so deeply connected into what's happening and reliving it or re-experiencing it. And that can take a huge emotional toll on people. And, you know, you talked about vicarious trauma, and some of this is reflective, right? You may not even realize that you were experiencing trauma and try to deal with it till after it's all over. And I just wonder how experiencing that kind of vicarious trauma could impact their actual decision-making during deliberations, and after? Yeah, I mean, I think when you're firsthand and experiencing all of that sort of violent information and traumatic testimony, it's very difficult to then do your job, essentially, in terms of sifting through all of that data and kind of concretely coming up with logic as to coming up with a determination or a decision. And that ask of jurors is very large and very challenging and difficult. Especially, I imagine, for, you know, anybody who is a mother who is a juror there, right? Yeah, I think, you know, especially anybody who feels like they identify in a way, so being a mother, could make it more emotionally deep and taxing to sort of come to being very, thoughtful and working through your emotions. If you're really identifying with the victim, that could be really difficult. You know, Dr. DeBlasi, one of the most unique things about this case is how interested and engaged the public became, right? It wasn't just us reporters covering the story. And, you know, we're talking about juror mental health here, but I wonder because almost everybody that I know, I'm sure you know, felt consumed by the fact that they were consumed by the story. Can vicarious trauma affect people at home? Oh, definitely. You know, anybody who has been, you know, involved in watching this trial and following it can certainly experience vicarious trauma, you know, by hearing about such awful things that have happened, such violent acts, you know, you can certainly start to feel it, feel the stress of that, feel afraid, you know, that the world is a really, difficult place and, and violence can happen and, and that can be really difficult to process and can cause vicarious trauma, even from home, if you haven't personally experienced it. Avoiding your unfinished home projects because you're not sure where to start? Thumbtack knows homes, so you don't have to. Don't know the difference between matte paint finish and satin? Or what that clunking sound from your dryer is? With Thumbtack, you don't have to be a home pro. You just have to hire one. You can hire top-rated pros, see price estimates, and read reviews, all on the app. Download today. Dr. DeBlasi, there's also an isolation factor to consider here, right? I mean, when I spoke to Paula, she told me about what it was like to return home sometimes after really difficult days. How hard was it for you to go home at night? There were some nights I didn't want to. I didn't want to face anybody. And I would go to the beach and sit for a little bit and then go home. It was hard. You know, you can't talk about anything. And it kind of overtook, you couldn't even have a normal conversation because there were things in your head that you couldn't get out of them. You knew that these are things I have to hold on to until we get to the point that we can try to let them go. Dr. DeBlasi, how much can isolation impact someone's mental health? You know, I think isolation is really, can be very damaging for people's mental health. You know, when people are experiencing something so emotionally taxing and difficult and hard to process, really the best thing we know to help with that is to be able to talk about it and process that and talk about it out loud and to lean on your loved ones or people in your life that, you know, that care about you. That are good listeners. And when you're not able to do that or you don't have someone that you feel like you can just be open and honest with to talk about things, you do feel isolated and alone with your emotions. And that's really when it makes it the most difficult because things get bottled up inside and that can be very damaging. You know, I think it's really interesting that the psychological bond can be very strong with jurors who are together and sort of are deliberating on a very difficult, high stakes or violent crime. And so what we know is that it would be hard for anybody to really imagine being part of making such a high stakes decision and also experiencing such traumatic information repeatedly. And so what we find is that jurors who go through that really difficult, traumatic experience together find this sort of unique bond where they have somebody that went through the same thing and could understand and they don't even have to say anything. They know that the people were able, were there with them and went through something so unique like that. And so it creates this sort of deep and emotional emotional connection. You know, there have been some other high profile trials where they would sequester a jury, meaning, you know, you're sort of isolated to a hotel or a particular premises where you can't access the outside world during the course of that week's song trial. And, you know, doctor, there are some pretty famous examples. Examples of this, Charles Manson, Bill Cosby, of course, the 1995 O.J. Simpson criminal trial. Those jurors were actually sequestered, forget this, 265 days. So what are some of the benefits to ensuring a juror's isolation and what challenges might a juror actually face when they're sequestered? You know, I think when jurors are not sequestered, it can actually have some unique challenges in terms of that they're going through something so emotionally difficult and people may be asking them questions and they're not able to talk about it. So although they're surrounded by their loved ones, they still feel in a way emotionally alone and isolated. And that can even be more difficult than being isolated itself. However, you know, when you're sequestered, that also can be very challenging because now you're completely alone. You're isolated. You're just not distracted in any way. You're just sort of thinking about everything that's going on. You're missing your loved ones. And that can really add an additional toll. So I think each situation can actually bring its own unique challenges. You know, I do want to play a little bit of sound from the prosecution and the defense's statements about the jury, because I thought it was really interesting that they both took turns thanking the jurors for their time and their dedication. So what you're going to hear here is Plymouth D.A. Tim Cruz, and then Lindsey Clancy's defense attorney, Kevin Reddington. I want to just say I appreciate the hard work of the jury in this case. The jury obviously worked incredibly hard, stayed with that case for six and a half days. And that truly is people who understand the word of service as to what they did for our community. And I am grateful for that, as we all should be. You took literally more than a month out of your lives and sat here with us today. And I think that's really incredible. Through some of the toughest, most gut-wrenching things that any person can be subjected to. And I think I indicated that sadly, jurors carry this trauma with them for years. So as they both took time to say, look, this is a hard job and one that civil servants really seem to understand the emotional and mental impact of. In Canada, actually, there's a law that was just passed in 2022 that allows jurors to discuss trial details with health care professionals for medical, psychiatric, or therapeutic treatment. While there are no national resources like that here in the U.S., there are a few local efforts to try to build a more robust system for juror mental health. So in Santa Cruz, California, Assemblymember Gail Pellerin is actually working to create a pilot program that provides free mental health services to jurors. And she's working with the U.S. Department of Justice to try to build a to jurors who are exposed to pretty graphic topics like murder. There was actually something pretty similar during the trial after the Boston Marathon, I believe, Doctor. Yes. So interestingly, after the Boston Marathon bombing, the judge here actually extended the amount of time that the jurors were on service so that they could actually reach and have access to employee assistance programs, which essentially provided free, you know, consultation and therapeutic services for the jurors, which is, I think, could be very beneficial. I was also really curious about what kind of support jurors get after. And I read that there is like a post-trial support for jurors program at West Chester University that's in Pennsylvania. And it offers three free 30-minute calls with a doctoral student clinician or a licensed psychologist. But I should note these professionals, they're trained in providing psychological first aid for jurors who were psychologically impacted by their service. But again, we're talking about three phone calls. How effective can that be? You know, I really think it depends on the person. But I do think that three phone calls, even 30 minutes apiece, with a trained professional can actually have a lot of positive impact and can teach people some really immediate coping strategies to be able to manage what they've gone through and the trauma they've experienced. Now, for certain people, that may be enough. Obviously, for other people, they may need more longer-term therapy. But what's nice about these three visits is the therapist there could potentially recommend resources for people to continue or to let people know that if they're having a hard time, that there is help out there. So I think it's a really good starting point, actually, to have three phone calls. Three is better than zero. And especially when we think about the possibility that, there could be another trial here. There could be other citizens that are going to have to serve on this jury for trial number two. You know, what coping strategies would you suggest for jurors who know that they're heading into a really intense case? You know, I think it's really difficult to kind of develop really a huge repertoire of coping strategies right when you find out you're going to be on the jury. But there are some simple strategies that you can use and that can be helpful. What I would recommend to jurors are to look up some grounding techniques or mindfulness techniques that you can actually use very quickly, very easily in the moment. So if you're experiencing something that feels very, like, emotionally overwhelming for you, you can kind of use some of these techniques. Some of them are even as basic as, like, you know, counting to four seconds as you breathe in, holding it for four seconds, and then breathing out for four seconds. And so seconds or mindfulness, you know, feeling the ground underneath your toes, focusing on five things you see, four things you can touch, three things you can hear, you know, those sort of strategies are going to kind of ground you in the moment when you're experiencing something that's really difficult. I'm counting to four and taking a deep breath right now. Some great advice on a very heavy topic that we've all been talking so much about, but can't imagine what it was like to, you know, serve as a juror on this. case for so many weeks on end, be part of those deliberations. We know it wasn't easy. Michelle, thank you so much for your time and your insight on this. We appreciate it. Of course. Thank you so much for having me. And this is such an important topic. So I'm very grateful. Now we want to take this moment to say that if you or someone you know may be experiencing a mental health crisis, please contact the 988-SUICIDE-IN-CRISIS lifeline or just call or text 988. And if you're pregnant or you've just had a baby, you can dial or text the National Maternal Mental Health Hotline at 1-833-TLC-MAMA. And we'll be back next week with another episode of Case by Case. Be sure to rate and review and let us know which cases you're following and which cases you'd like us to follow. small business owner, but math was never your thing. Totally get it. But if you run a small business, you know how important it is to run your numbers. Enter Xero, that's X-E-R-O, as in X marks the spot for the perfect platform that puts accounting, payments, payroll, and analytics in one place. So you always have one clear picture of your business. Xero is more detailed than spreadsheets and just as powerful as other leading software, but it's simpler and easier to use. With visual dashboards, Xero makes it easy to understand your cash flow. You know exactly what's coming in and what's not. 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