The TikTok Gameplan: How James Maddison and Spurs led the Premier League on TikTok

Hello and welcome to another episode of Leaders Worth Knowing, the Sports Business Podcast. From us at Leaders in Sport for you, other leaders in Sport. This is an episode of the TikTok game plan. How James Madison and Spurs led the Premier League on TikTok. My name is James Emmett, I'm the editorial director here at Leaders. This episode features a conversation that I recorded at Leaders earlier in October. With James Madison, the Tottenham Hotspur and England midfielder. He was joined by Chanel Patel, the head of social at Spurs and TikTok's global head of sports partnerships, Rollo Goldstow. Now this is the third and final episode in a series we've been running with TikTok. The TikTok game plan, we've had episodes on magnifying women's sport with Mary Eurbs and one on owning the narrative with Rich Paul. You can find those on the podcast feed if you scroll back a few months. Now this conversation with James, Chanel and Rollo was recorded immediately after an on stage session at the main stage at Leaders. It was recorded backstage and what we're going to do is play the conversation but into Spurs a few clips from the on stage session which was moderated expertly by Joe Tong, the founder and CEO of TongTide Management and a big Spurs fan too. So here is the conversation. Hello and welcome to the Leaders' podcast. The TikTok playbook. I am here at Allianne Stadium twickenham with a all-star cast. A few folks who just got offstage here at the summit, I'm going to ask you to introduce yourselves folks. We've got Rollo, Chanel and James here. Chanel, let's start with you. Introduce yourself please. I'm Chanel Patel, Head of Social Media at Tottenham Hotspur Football Club. Okay, James. I am James Madison, 28-year-old male professional footballer for Tottenham Hotspur. Okay, you've gone in with your age there. I like it. Just in case people don't know. Chanel, I noticed you didn't say your age. I'm sorry if I say it there you go. And Rollo. Yes, my name is Rollo. I work at TikTok as our global head of sports partnerships. It's quite hard following a professional footballer that I'll try. How old are you, please? 36. Okay, God. So young pit-possed. I think I was forget. Are you going to introduce yourself? Yeah, no, James Emmett here, Editorial Director at Leaders' 39 years I would actually, 14 next year. That's how it works. We're here to talk about TikTok. We're here to talk about spurs on TikTok, the number one Premier League team. Certainly on TikTok. I'm here to talk about James Madison on TikTok. James, what are you watching on TikTok? What is the thing that keeps coming up on your field? Oh, God. How long have you got? Now mine varies so much. My for you page. But I think they, the stuff, the weird stuff that I it's like almost guilty pleasure. Okay. Keeps coming back because I keep watching it, you know. Okay, full James. Yeah. I'm watching Cheeseburger Reviews, I'm watching Dad's and Suns, I'm watching. There's a girl on there who goes to visit her grandma who's got Alzheimer's and cheese on for you page every day and they're like two minute long videos and I'm locked in, you know. Okay. Real variance. Yeah. Good. She now. Mine's completely round and as well, between football, golf, I love golf, D.O.I renovations because I'm trying to plaster my house at the moment in like various things. Yeah. I think one person who brings some, I don't even know his name, but he just keeps popping up. I don't follow him. But he's a guy from New Jersey who gives really amazing life advice in like a very comedic way and he's absolutely blown up recently and it's just so ridiculous. He's just getting tons of engagements. He keeps popping up for me. I'm Roni. A lot of dad content. I have thought it was almost years old. I was so a lot of Americans, my new job means I work with a lot of US organizations. I need to learn a lot about different Americans. Well, so there's one where this couple are kind of explaining what happened in the NFL that weekend, but like it's gossip, like a guy and a girl and it's great. Yeah. Interesting that house renovation stuff. Like TikTok is really good for sort of how-to guides. Like if you want to do, like it's such a, at that blue in my mind the other day, like I couldn't, I could turn a light off in a hotel. How many James does it take to turn off a light? I needed the power of TikTok to help me turn off the light, but we got there in the end. Turns out just close the door. James, how many followers do you have on TikTok? Do you know over two million other? Okay. Yeah. I don't actually know the exact. Okay. I think I do one of the platforms with TikTok. I'm not 100% sure. I think you've got 2.4 million. It's nice. It's sort of a bit of humility that you don't track that every day. Yeah, I mean, I know it would be around there. What motivates you to put it? Do you like it when your phone blows up when you're getting lots of likes? I don't know what motivates me. I've always like trying to show my personality. I've always been a very out there kind of person. TikTok is also a great way to do that. I can show little short snippets of my life that I think people would either find funny or interesting. I put my kids in my kids in my cinema and they just seems to blow up because they forget that the footballer James Madison number 10 at the top. And that was also a dad at home in the house of Carnage. You know, so you mentioned on the stage about the TikTok playing wrestling with my kids using the cushions smack them over the head. Obviously not actually smacking them. But the whole humour in it is then pretending to be hit and falling over like wrestlers. Yeah. And it's a less than a minute long video and it's yeah, I don't know what it's got five million views or something and people just love seeing that and mentioning it to me in the street at the stadium because they like to get an insight into my life and what life is like away from the pitch and it's very easy to do that. So yeah, she know how many followers does the spurs account have pretty sure it's 42,900,000. Your contractually obliged to check this every day, right? Yeah, every other day or so. Well, so the app rounds it up to 43. So you can just say 43. 43 million there. Yeah, yeah. Take that. And how would you characterize spurs TikTok? I would say it's just a lot of fun. Obviously the professional side as well. We showcase football side of things training of course, but it's a different personality to say other platforms. And I like to think that if a random person who has no interest in football, not even spurs just football, we even sports like a random person came across the spurs we did. They'd actually enjoy it. And we hear that quite a bit from people who like friends, for example, who aren't like football fans and they'd say like I love that there's going on the TikTok, I buy it re-entertaining and I think that's a good place to be for us. So yeah, I think for us, I'd describe it as just a lot of fun mixing and we love to see the professional side and what we are as a football club, but yeah, showcasing the players' personality and in a way sort of humanising what the spurs brand is. And that's through the players. They are the main characters. James, how does your content work? Like you touched on it a little bit on stage and obviously when you're at home and those sort of intimate family moments, that's just natural. You know, it's you where your wife kind of filming. Have you got people to help you sort of come up with ideas for pieces to like to film, to post, to write captions or whatever? How does it all work? I do, I would say 90% of it. There's some stuff, there's some ideas and some stuff that gets pitched to me though. I'm just not intelligent enough to think of and stuff. I'm very humble enough to be able to admit that, you know. I don't have a plan as a strategic plan as such. I know TikTok these days, especially even a spurs for example, I like the lads that spurs, I like to, am I probably closest friends who I spend the most time with, Brennan Johnson and Archie Gray. Archie's just turned 19 and Brennan's 22 or 23. So they're young heads, especially Archie and he's like such a TikTok generation boy, like brilliant football, like works as, works as I asked off all the time, trains hard every day, proper pro, but he's just from this generation which is what I call the TikTok generation, you know. So he's in touch with everything like that and stuff. So I'm constantly taking on input and trying to stay young, stay, stay free and but I do have people around me to help I have a team, I have a big team of people who, who have moved lots of different aspects and I have people who have moved TikTok ideas. Also, I always have the last six, I think I always think I know best, that's just one of my problem. My misses and say one of my bad colleagues. No, I take on a lot of information from people around me and my team and it's 90% of it comes from me. Yeah, yeah. That was a thing. Why your account so successful is that it nice doesn't come from you. The like the blind ranking effects you do, they just feel so natural. It's like you face the camera like self, you know, video mode sitting in your house and so I think that allows you to act like other TikTok creators or users in that way and definitely leds into it. Yeah. The strange dynamic that's happening in sport, right, was probably happening everywhere, right, but sort of younger generations being much more snappy on particular platforms like then the slightly older generations who are in charge of stuff, right, and you've got to give quite a lot of freedom. It must be really tricky balance to strike as a club sort of, you've got to stick to guidelines and kind of media training and stuff like that. Like how do you, Chanel and your team give that license to younger folks on your team to do what they want to do, a trust that it won't damage the brand. Yeah, I mean, they always come with ideas and sort of talk through them. They're not going to execute the ideas. And then there's, we have a really strong good approvals process as well, which allows us to just ensure that the right content is going out and just fine-tuning it slightly if we need to or if it doesn't work, then we just say, I've got a scrap that idea, but I'd say 9% of the time is the idea is always thought ahead of time and the team are very good at planning ahead and knowing what works. So, you know, if you're planning ahead and being across it, then it works. No one has complete freedom to do absolutely everything. Maybe apart from all match days when it's so quick and it needs to be in the moment. But the vast majority of content you see on our TikTok channel, well, I'll say every single one has gone through a approval process actually. So, that's important, I think, of the club and as leaders in the company, you have to give that freedom to to the next generation of leaders who are going to be who are making the great career of work. I think that's the point. I certainly was that case when I was in my mid-20s, I thought I knew what social was more than my boss who was probably similarly age-to-earth now. And having that freedom allowed me to express what I did and that's how I sort of say to the team, what they can do. So, we act like creators in a way. So, we'll always jump on the trends. We've got to be quick to it. I think we have to show up every day. That's a key thing. I think fans these days, they don't expect, you know, to see their club just on the TV for 90 minutes on the weekend. They want to be serviced every day of the week. And that's what we do, so we show up and then do that. Having fun is definitely the core point of it, but we act like a creator, which I think is really important. So showcasing the personality and trying to humanise our brand as much as possible. You said something really interesting earlier that when we did win our trophy in those five days, how many TikTok videos did you post? Yes, so when we won the Europa League. So that period from when we won the Europa League on the Wednesday through to the Sunday, which was the last game of the season, and then the middle was the parade, which was an unbelievable five days. We posted 96 times on TikTok, which is like, you know, averaging out around 20 times a day, which is a phenomenal output from the team. And yeah, the vast majority of that content was all shot on mobile phone, which was 75% of those videos were all mobile phone based. So being there in the moment, having that access and that ability to shoot really quickly and producing what the audience wants to see on that platform is what we've done, which is why I say, a lot of the time we produce stuff on TikTok, which doesn't really go anywhere else. It's just there in the platform and that's why it does so well. I think that consistency and that emergency, especially that week was so crucial, especially, you know, to the build and the numbers that you saw that week. And James, talk to me about your obviously of a faceless burst on the pitch, but how does that sort of transcend your responsibility be on the pitch? Can I just say actually, we do train and work hard. Let's know just say the strategy is have fun. No, listen, I always say that me personally and every football is different, but I think it's very important that we as players try and show our fans and the footballing fans in general, our personality and what we like as people. And obviously TikTok's a great platform to be able to do that. You've seen some of the stuff we did, some of the fun moments that we have doing that sort of stuff. But I do think it's important because especially now, like everybody's got a phone in their hand, and we get put up for a lot of criticism and performances aren't good and stuff, but I think it just like, it almost like humanises a little bit where people actually see as people rather than just robots and footballers, like they did maybe about 10, 15 years ago. So yeah, just about like trying to show our personality and even the other players and I don't mind being on the camera. I don't mind, I'm comfortable waking up in the morning and looking tired on the camera and I'm going to be able to laugh. Some lads aren't, some of the players aren't. But I try and get as many of the lads feeling comfortable as possible because I know it will benefit them. The fans being able to see their personality day to day and what they're actually like as people because they're all great lads. And yeah, as I said, you've seen on there, TikTok's a great place to be able to do that. So a couple of things that you said on Stair J. Lysch and Elie Strapman made me think like, oh, if I was sort of working at the club, I'm not sure what I would. You said after the Europa League win, I suppose when I made Europa League a few months ago, you produced 92 TikToks. 96 TikToks in a really short period of time, right? And the next three days, something like that. And then you went on to talk about access, like the key thing for getting this right is having this great access to the players being embedded in how they operate. So you've got that good behind the scenes content and made me think for the players that level of that amount of content that's going out, that's all sort of captured from you guys just doing your job. Sorry. And how does this access thing come across to you? Like how has Chanel and his team got the balance right that you don't feel like hassled that like you trust and know the people who are the cameras and your faces all the time. Yeah, but we we have players have pretty good relationship with the media team at the top. So Chanel and there's a few others and obviously Hannah's the main one whose camera's in our face like you just said she's the one holding the phone because you said that most of the videos are captured on the phone. And Hannah Hannah will be there when we arrive. But they're very understanding. There's some days where we're doing arrivals where I've just had a bad morning or like I'm not I'm in the mood this morning where you just walk your walk track past having so sorry having that today. They're not going to post it because they're, do you know what I mean? There's days I'm just having that kind of relationship where they understand that we're not always going to want to do content, but also taking advantage of the moments where we do want to do it, you know. And the morning, middle of the week arrivals, especially if we've worn a game, lads are in good feeling. I think they're pretty good at realizing the right moments to do it. It's not constant access, you know. Sometimes Hannah will give us a little heads up, say we might be doing arrivals tomorrow morning. So the lads put on a bit of extra nice clothes in, you know. But just having that relationship I think and then one of the videos that got shown on the screen was obviously in the changement after the win in Bill Bow, weren't it? Or we did the Champions League music time and stuff and that's when like ultimate dopamine rush, you know, like we're at such a high just qualified for Champions League and win the trophy that have time and fans wanted for so long. We would have let them video anything. You know what I mean? So you're taking advantage of it. I mean, I'm right. It's just realizing the right moments as players because then they were talking about TikTok and stuff like that, but we are ultimate professionals, you know, if they were trying to do that at the wrong time, I for one as one of the leaders would say, "No, not today. You need to let get the change room or whatever." We have that relationship where I think that we all kind of know the limits and the boundaries. And from your perspective, Chanel, clearly there's a good amount of trust, you know, two-way trust with Hannah and maybe someone else. Yeah, a few of them. Yeah. How many people is the right amount of people is your tapping out social team, do you think? Oh, we currently have eight in the team. That's across producers, creators, graphic designers, publishing. We have a lot of accounts to publish on. There's like over 35 accounts we run when you break it down, across spurs, women's, per se, etc. I'd love to have obviously a few more. Everyone would say that, of course they would. So we can produce more and more good content. But yeah, I think for a team of our size, we've got a good amount with eight, I'd say. I just want to go back to what Dome is saying around the trust side. I think that's super, super key for any immediate department at any club is to get that trust with the players. And that takes time that it wasn't like an overnight thing. I think it definitely takes time. As a result of that, for example, the Europa League final, when you have your biggest moments and the trust is there, the players are free to express themselves. And in the knowledge that we know we're putting out the right stuff on our channels. I thought the Europa League campaign was absolutely phenomenal and the final and the win and everything. And the content we got from it was like extraordinary. So yeah, I think we have to build that trust up over time. Should your content team be similar age to the players? Should they, you know, should be the same sort of generation? And I appreciate any team as several generations of players. Yeah, well the team, there's a mixture of players. Yeah, yeah. We have different ages. I think to get the best content out on the channels, you need to have a, I think a range of people in my team because we also need not just producing fun content all the time because there's also a lot of serious things that happen at the club which we have to act on. And there's a lot of, and moments like James said, like say, there's a loss, for example, it's not producing anything fun there. We're very much heads down and like sort of move on to the next game. A bit like the sort of the players are as well. But yeah, I think that's the way we go with it. Yeah, I appreciate that our time is up. But I want to quickly touch on commercial content from both of your perspectives really because a lot of people who be listening to this sports industry professionals, maybe on the brand side. One of the number one priorities for these folks is working out how to get the best out of athletes. Right, such a short limited amount of time that folks have usually and they need to create the right environment for good content to be made. And I wonder what your first or James, your advice would be. You've worked with brands. You've clearly very good on digital platforms. When you've produced a good bit of content for a brand, they're happy with it, you're happy with it. What does that situation look like that's got the best out of you. So if I was speaking to someone who wanted advice, if I were a platform and we create with a brand so I would create a good bit of content, how do I, how have they got that out of you, how have they worked with you to make you feel happy, confident and fun, comfortable. Yeah, comfortable. All the best work gets done like even doing someone like this, it's quite just like for a podcast for example. Yeah. It's quite intense. Yeah, it's quite an uncomfortable environment. Yeah, that's it. And with the lights even, some people, some people wouldn't thrive in this, some people, some players who have really good personality would not thrive in here and you would not see. You've done very well. Yeah, I've done a few of the judges that, but would feel uncomfortable in this situation because it just not, it takes a lot for, so just about making the athlete or the player comfortable and getting the best out of them and I mentioned it on the stage a lot, it's because bliss players that I've played with who are the funniest, most interacting lads that you'll see and they go in front of the sky sports camera, big camera after a game and freeze up and say the most textbook media answer ever and I watch it and I think that's not, that's not him. And what is going on there because they're not comfortable in that scenario, so I think, because they think it's being professional work and to an extent it is, but there's absolutely something wrong with showing your personality. It's something I always try and get out of players because it's also links to on the pitch as well, I know this is not about on the pitch, but like showing your personality on the pitch and being brave and having the courage to like maybe take the ball under pressure and Brendan Rogers mild managed it a lester kind of little bit off the hook on it, but he always used to say show your personality. That'd be one of the things he'd say to the team before going out, especially if we had a big away gaming, it's a team who was a big club of the nerves, show your personality in the way you play. And I think it's the same with players and working with brands and stuff that if you get them to show their personality and feel comfortable in the environment, then you're going to get the best out of them. And it's just a case of it. Well said. Chanel, final word to you, what do you think works best? He's got a very good answer from James Sv'Fair. He is about showing the personality, especially with the player. I think the real struggle that you have with sometimes like brand new content sponsors and with the club and a player, there's three different like personalities there. There's the brand with their message. There's the club's brands are going to go on their channels. And then if you want to get the best out of the player, where does their personality fit in? So I think the place you need to get to is try and get the Holy Trinity all through. That is also the biggest challenge. When people talk about authenticity, right, which is such a buzzword at the moment, it just doesn't exist, right? The authenticity is that spot in the middle that it's a bit of the player, a bit of the brand and a bit of the plan exactly. Yeah, really challenging, but I think if you can get to that place and there's quite a few brands out there who do it well and a few, these I think are supposed to do quite a good job from a brand of content side as well. I think that's where you can get to. So you get to mess out the player. Yeah. Also having the brand messaging in it and it works for the club channels, which goes out to the club's audience, which is effectively spurs fans and wider football fans. In terms of like the best tick tock you've worked on or the best video you've worked on, can you give me an example? I mean, there's so many. Or that you've seen, it doesn't have to be one you've done, but. I think a recent one would be when we signed Moe Kudus in the summer. So this is a great tick tock in general because we were able to jump on a trend. So we used the pink pantherous trend if you might know it. I'm not going to sing it in Paris myself. But it was obviously a massive signing and it was about meeting another player and we had him and Mickey Mandeven meet each other and obviously we just announced him as a player. But the backstory of that was that there was when Moe played against us for West Ham. The other season there was a bit of an escalation on the pitch and he got a red card. And that was a bit of a backstory to the transfer. And we were able to play on that slightly in a fun way. And the video itself just went absolutely crazy because it was timely, it was relevant, it was jumping on a trend on tick tock. That was a big moment obviously for the club and obviously for the players, which was great. And that was a big one for us that really springs to mind. Well, I have an example. I mean, you must see everything. You just remind me when you were counted like football, football, around the stadium. It was such a great piece of content. I actually went on to sports count earlier and it was when I was swiping through. It was the fact that you had seven posts from the Bodo game and four or five of them had match content in it. It was like goals or highlights. As much as you were saying the beginning, the fun side of tick tock, the humorous behind the scenes completely true. And something to lean into. We're also seeing incredible performance around actual match rights as well. And from what I could tell, like you uploaded as soon as the embargo was allowed. And it's performing really well. So I love seeing that volume. And transparently we want sports organizations to do that more. And it's part of our job to encourage it. So football golf and your recent highlights. Don't get me wrong, like James said. If we do show them training as well on our tick tock tock, we're very serious about that, like professional side of it. But what makes you tick tock unique is that we can have that fun side as well. And James, your video of your kids, the WWE one, that's great. Yeah, then ones are fun. See, I make them videos and just I don't think I'm going to make a tick tock now. I just, I'm playing with my kids and my misses has her phone out and we're just messing around. I was hitting them with the cushions, but my boy likes to, my youngest boy likes to pretend that he's like really been hit. And he does this dramatic fall. And it's hilarious. You should go and work it not coming out. Well, you just capture something and think that would be good on tick tock rather than thinking, oh, I must have. So it's a bit of both, yeah, it's a little bit of both. Sometimes like, I can say tick tock, and because it, because you can make a good tick tock and it can just be a matter of seconds, which is what's beautiful. You don't need always loads of hours of work going into a video. I remember I've got a tick tock where we played for England against Australia at Wembley. And I was dribbling and I cut into other shot from about 25 yards. Normally, right from that kind of area, just to the left. And I had the worst shot of adding the old career. It literally went so high and wide. I think it went for a throw in, actually. And I just thought it'd be a good time to almost take the Mickey out of myself a little bit. And we just, me and my team just created an edit where like the ball just goes into orbit and through all the planets and then hits a woman on the face in a sun-lown journey in another country. And just like, make light of not taking it too seriously. We'd win the game and just making a joke about it. It's not always serious, you know. You see a lot of footballers who play the game do the post-much interview and it's very down the line straight-butted answers. Well, what metrics do tick tock use to kind of benchmark success? Or have you got any good success stories that you could share? A lot of metrics, as you imagine, is like an app with lots of different parts. I think one of the ones I find interesting, we looked at recently and we don't normally share these numbers. But we found we want to look at how many accounts were posting sports content. So the things we talk about a lot, like there being a billion users and all sorts of consumption. Want to know how many people actually posting content we recognise as sports. And it was 60 million different users. So that's, you know, not far off the population of this country are posting sports content globally. And so the real difference, one of the many areas to look at with tick tock is not just sitting back and watching or even engaging and commenting, liking it's actually people co-creating and posting themselves, posting content whether it's related to spurs, or James, or whatever it might be. And that's definitely something from a metric we'll keep looking at and looking at whether that's going up, what's changing. And then success stories. One of the ones recently was disowned for the club World Cup. They really lent in and posted almost 7,000 videos in a three week period. And so that's kind of more than 20 adation now. Yes. It was more than some leagues, some top top leagues were posted in the entire year. They got five billion views, 210 million engagements, all these big numbers. But the one which was really interesting, we had one of the products we were to see in the video, it drove through to the zone's app and website. So the idea for us is there's this complaint, you know, complaint that social media means people are on that instead of watching the live sport. This page drove through to the zone, people have to watch life. And so we're trying to see the tip to how we can be the solution to that problem instead of a cause and actually drive live tune in. So more people are watching James play the live sport. Which I say, I just think that model is really interesting. So as a platform, you are there to direct people off your platform. Yeah, I forgot to say half a million people actually went through. So that's 500,000 users went to design. So we know that it's active. It's very weird for anyone to be like, we're going to encourage people to stop using our business. But we're okay knowing that that trends point with jet to holidays. We know people come back. They come back because a lot of the cultural conversation starting point is on TikTok. So we're okay and confident that those users will come back to you to use TikTok. And we're happy to have that exchange of value with rights holders and broadcasters that we're increasing the amount of people watching live sport. It's going to add one thing. On the panel we were talking about, and athletes as rights holders, I saw you can't like not in a long be able to you mentioned that clip where the shot went a bit. Hi, and around the world and into the ice you still say on the way up because I was mentioning that one day, you know, athletes will probably live stream their own game and you actually got confirmed as I can my phone. We're going to be live streaming Dennis Boringas next L.A.F.C game. So with Sony now there on TikTok on his own account. So I thought we'd just worth sharing because it's brand new news. And I thought on leaders I can share that news. And it's a dear for you. If you had more of that content from the Premier League from the club, was that something you'd want to post on TikTok or is it do you think it interrupts the balance of what you usually put aside? like the right side if you had more of it. - Yeah, like when you first say that, I think how that work and how it look as an image and stuff, like, feel like in America, everything's a little bit ahead of the curve in comparison to England and the Premier League. Firstly, we're not allowed. We're at this rights with the image in and using the games from the game. - Yeah. - But the fact that there's gonna be someone in LAFC live streaming just the game. - So it's gonna be possible. - It's a personal item. - It's gonna play a spotlight. So it's shared between Sony, Hugo Larise, himself and two of it. So it's split across five players and it's a vertical feed. So the first everyone we did was just messy. And then we actually with Apple realized that when that player's not got the ball, it gets a bit boring. So we realized that actually, and it really obviously. - Just like there's a damn movie, right? - Yeah, so it was actually better to split it amongst more players. So the last intamami game we had was like their Magic 5, Suarez, Busquets, Messi and so on. And so this one will be at LAFC. We're gonna, you know, it'll be streamed globally. So we expect some viewership and stuff, correct? But yeah, it will go on Dennis's channel or his account on TikTok. And so it's just something I'm personally interested in. It was like giving athletes more of the power and rights and see what happens with it. So we're kind of like, it's a test for us. - Yeah, Messi is really, he walks a lot. - He's a save now. - He's done enough to earn the right to have to walk around a lot when he hasn't got the ball. - He does a bus. I went to Yankee's save and to watch him. And the whole save and kind of like, really to be quiet, he gets the ball and everyone just stands up and just watches him. It's a weird experience. But yeah, it's gonna, they do the carve out with the WSL deal, didn't they? - Yeah. - Where players can take live footage and put it on their social. - I think that's happening for sure. With on-takes, with getting the game, I think what we were realizing is just as we said, there was mention on the panel, like fans following players more or same as clubs, but definitely as player power of fandom. We also, we see from our data that 75% of all the audience for athlete accounts is female. So for TikTok, it's a point where we're like, okay, if you use that account, you can reach female fans as well. So there's this part where if you're the WSL, you're the Premier League, you're MLS, if you give more power to the athletes, you can expand the fandom of your game. - Interesting tipping point that we're potentially at. I'm afraid we don't have any more time left. So it just remains for me to thank Chanel, James and Raleigh. Thank you very much indeed. - Thank you, Lads, Jess. - Thanks. - Bye, Jules. (upbeat music)