The Thursday Show: What's the future of design centers? Plus: Pantone's controversial Color of the Year

This is Business of Home, I'm Dennis Scully, and welcome to The Thursday Show. Later on I'll be speaking with Michael Phillips of Jamestown about the future of design centers. But first, we're going to catch up on the news, including another rate cut from the Fed, Pantones Controversial Color of the Year, and what matters more for designers? Their portfolio, or their personality? To do all that, I'm joined by Business of Home's executive editor, Fred Nikolas. Hi, Fred. Hi, Dennis. How's it going? Great. How you doing? Good to see you at the annual Business of Home holiday party. It was our. Gosh, how many times have we. 20th, 30th, we've done? Exactly. So many years, it's one of the few times I get to see Fred. I was explaining to someone the other day, "Oh, do you and Fred record in person?" No, no. We usually see each other at the holiday party, and it's great. And the holiday party is not to venue for recording. There's far too much gossip flinging around. All of it unconfirmed. Exactly. Too many hot takes on the color of the year. It's not for public consumption. Anyway, let's look back on Monday's episode and interview with interior designer Dan Fink. Good conversation. Yes, indeed. Dan Fink, whose career could have gone in any number of directions. Bioethics just being one of them, but he ends up working with some tech dudes, it sounds like. And ultimately, they become clients, and he becomes a designer. Yeah, I mean, being a personal assistant to a tech mogul is not traditional. On ramp to a great interior design career, but Dan made it work. I'm always interested to hear from designers who have worked a lot in Silicon Valley, because I always expect them to be like, and then I use this algorithm to have some sort of crazy tech backing of their business. But I think Dan is actually an example of somebody who's all about old school craft and really diving deep on everything he does. And he was talking about how he tries to stay away from technology and stay away from social media. And I think that's probably true of a lot of his Silicon Valley clients. They want to leave it at the office. So I don't know, I always love that kind of voyeuristic glimpse into what goes on in the Bay Area. What'd you take away from the conversation? Yeah, I very much agree. And I think it relates to some of what we'll be talking about later on the show. I think he has some very specific feelings around tech, and also just how one presents themselves to the world. And whether or not that's a priority for him, he doesn't feel he needs to be in front of the camera in a big way. But he feels let the work speak for itself. And I wonder if more people are feeling that way and would agree with him. I think perhaps there's far more than we realize in this day and age. Not us though. We do a lot of speaking for ourselves. Exactly. Our speaking is the work. That's the thing. There we go. Hopefully it does speak for itself. All right, we're going to take a quick break and then we'll get into the news. [music] This podcast is sponsored by Programma. When a project hits momentum, clarity matters more than anything. Programma keeps every spec, revision, and client note organized in one place. So nothing derails your timeline. It's the structure behind projects that actually run on time. Use BoH25 for 25% off your first three months. You'll find the link in the show notes. This podcast is sponsored by June LaLoi. June LaLoi is a total home furnishings destination from the family behind LaLoi Ruggs, recently celebrating their first birthday. Over the past year, June LaLoi has brought us into their world of imaginative design, artisan craft, and thoughtful curation across rugs, furniture, lighting, decor, and more. With decades of LaLoi Rugg experience behind them, their trade program provides a seamless experience with special pricing and priority support, always. Visit JuneLaLoi.com to explore their collection and sign up for a trade account today. That's J-O-O-N-L-O-L-O-I.com. [music] And we're back. First up Fred, we're talking the Fed. Where else to start the show? The Federal Reserve lowered rates by a quarter point today, bringing down borrowing costs amid broader economic strain. This call just ended actually right before we started recording. Did you listen in? What did you make of the news coming out of the Federal Reserve? I did listen in, and as usual, Jerome Powell in his dramatic putt all out on the table way and said, "Yeah, you know, we're just trying to read the economy as best we can. We really have no idea about where things are going." I don't know if that's a totally accurate impression of Jerome Powell. He's not quite so slacker about it. No, I think he outlined the various challenges around trying to get a handle on where things are going. And suggested that the recent weakness in employment is the main reason for bringing rates down once again, but no clear indication of aggressive rate cuts to come in the future, which I think aligns well with the data that we're seeing at this point. Yeah, just a quick primer. The Federal Reserve changes borrowing costs basically trying to, on one hand, fight inflation. On the other hand, make sure that people still have jobs. And right now, it's a really weird time. I mean, it's even weirder, but because of the government shutdown, we don't have all the data we normally would have. You know, the general presumption is that inflation is still higher than they want it to be. It's what's the benchmark? They want it to be 2% and it hasn't been there for like five years or something like that. Yeah, exactly. And in his heart of hearts, I think you can tell that Jerome Powell is really struggling with that, because you're not hitting your mark month after month, and you're the guy in charge of hitting that mark. And he has to come out and say, well, inflation is hotter, but once again, we're going to cut rates for the third time this year, when he sort of feels like we really don't have inflation where it's supposed to be. But he's getting, as we know, an awful lot of political pressure and a lot of people are suggesting that rates should be far lower. We had one descend who felt that the rate cut should have been half a point instead of a quarter, and we had two people on the Fed board who thought that with inflation where it is, there's certainly no reason to be cutting. So he's getting a lot of mixed signals and mixed messages, and it's not a position I'd want to be in threat, I don't know about you. Yeah, it's a confusing time. There's a lot of signals going in both directions. Now, I guess like, what should we take away from the fact that the key interest rate is now down to 3.5 to 3.75? Certainly lower than it's been in a minute. Is this going to loosen up the mortgage market? Is this going to be sort of the boon that the housing market needs to really get started and give a lot of designer's jobs? What do you think? I want to say yes, Fred, to make all those designers out there happy. I kind of set you up, I'm sorry, but you have to be a bummer. Go ahead, Dennis, bring the room down with what you really think. Listen, the truth is, I honestly think that without some kind of massive government stimulus program, reminiscent of the GI bill after World War II, housing prices are not coming down dramatically from the Federal Reserve cutting rates by a quarter of a percentage point. It's just not going to happen. And so, will mortgage rates hopefully tick down from this? Yes, but that in and of itself is not going to bring down that is not going to re-stimulate the housing market in the way that we would like to see. And I think that people are going to have to come together at some point and discuss what really is the solution there because it still is a huge problem. In the short term, this is as good as we're going to get for a while and maybe other forces in the economy will be strong enough to offset what continues to be a very challenging housing market. Mortgage just don't just automatically go down because the Federal Reserve cuts their number. They're tied to something called the treasury rates, which is how much basically it costs to how much money the government will pay you back for taking that alone. Right now, those numbers are actually going up. So, you know, there's no sign as you said that this is going to magically solve the housing market. But I do think that people have been calling for an interest rate cut for a while. A lot of people sort of on the business community, people who want to borrow money to do a new project or take out a new initiative have been calling for this. It does make it easier for companies to borrow money. Maybe they will spend some of that money on interior design. This has a positive knock-on effect for sort of the contract side of the industry. I'm speculating a little bit here, but certainly this is something people have been asking for. The stock market seem to like it. So, I don't want this to be too much of a gloomy day. I will say just one little note of optimism. We had a bunch of retailers and brands talk about how Black Friday went for them, our producer Caroline Burke and my colleague Aiden wrote a great story about that. Generally speaking, people were really happy with how Black Friday went. People seemed to be spending not only on gifts, but on their homes. They were all taking that as a positive sign that maybe finally, how is it going to pick back up? People are going to start spending on their homes in a big way in 2026. So, I'm just going to say from the pages of business home to God's years, to God's eyes, and hopefully we'll get that big bounce back. Well, I love the optimism and I hope that it plays out, because certainly that would be great for the whole industry, and so I certainly want that as well. Moving on, we're going to talk about a controversy in the world of architecture. Last month, the Department of Education made major changes to how federal student loans would be awarded. The agency decided that architecture, along with careers like nursing and physical therapy, would no longer be considered a professional degree. My mom's a nurse friend and she's pretty upset about that aspect of it. I can assure you she's with the architects in their dismay around all of this. What about podcasters? Is that still a profession? Are we professionals? I'll leave that to the audience, right? That's up for serious debate. Another controversy on that one. I mean, this made a lot of headlines at the time, sort of understandably, because when you see that the Department of Education no longer considers architects professionals, it seems really insulting, and maybe fair enough. It does have kind of a whiff of a little bit being insulting. This is actually a lot nerder than that, though maybe still very impactful, which is that the Department of Education has basically been redefining the way that students can take out loans from the federal government to go to graduate school. Now, before, for about a decade or maybe a couple decades, you could qualify up until the cost of tuition. The speculation has basically been that that has made schools raise tuition a lot because they know the federal government will pay for it. And so we're seeing like out of control tuition. And this policy is, you know, ostensibly about cutting that. So the federal government is going to put a limit on how much it alone students, ideally, the goal is that it will stop this tuition inflation and people won't get into crazy debt to go to grad school. Now, the problem is they put a pretty harsh limit on it. So non-professional programs will be capped at $20,000 and professional degrees will be capped at $50,000. So by labeling architectural and non-professional program, that means architecture students will only be able to borrow $20,000 a year from the federal government at a time in which top schools are like 60 and higher. So this really changes the math. Exactly. And we should point out as you did in the piece that interior designers have been considered non-professional. All along. So nothing changes sometimes. No change there, yeah. Exactly. The slap in the face continues for designers. But this really is quite dramatic. And as you say, some of this was born out of what has for a long time been considered this student loan crisis. But and students coming out of school in some cases, owing tens, if not hundreds of thousands of dollars in some cases. And it is a reminder that that tuition's have gotten quite high in this country. But many people feeling including the AIA and some other organizations that are in support of the profession of architecture that this isn't the way to address that issue. And it doesn't leave a good taste in their, in their mouths, I would say. Yeah. I mean, I think most people on all sides of the political spectrum would agree that this is kind of a problem. I just think a lot of people, you know, certainly architecture, this is not really the solution. Because like I said, it really just changes the math. Like if you want to go to a top program like Yale or Columbia, you have to, you know, borrow an additional $40,000 to get there. Presumably, you don't, you know, have the money to go to school. And then you're turning to a private lender and the interest rates there is usually going to be higher than with the federal government will offer you. So in some cases, probably students will come out with more debt from school. And other cases, students might just decide, you know what, this is too expensive. I'm just not going to become an architect. I think some schools will probably cancel their graduate programs. It's possible that people, you know, that schools will lower the cost of their programs to try and make up for this. You know, there's general skepticism that will happen. But, you know, it's really unpredictable. What will come from this? You know, what many people said is simply that we will have fewer architects just because it'll be so much more expensive or, you know, difficult to get into these programs and more owners to borrow from them. So, yeah, I don't know what this specifically means for designers. I've been going back and forth a little bit with David Spruels from the New York School of Interior Design. And he was saying that actually, if there are fewer architects, then some designers might see like an opportunity to sort of do the works that normally goes to an architect. But of course, it also makes it more difficult for designers to borrow for a graduate program. So it makes it more expensive for them as well. So it's really unpredictable. Well, we'll come for this. But we're going to see the effects of this for sure. No, absolutely. We are going to see the effects of it and listen. As we know, in talking to many interior designers, they're unlikely to shed a tear at the thought of fewer architects in the world. But I think they do not all. I think many of them say, "Oh, well, that's terrible." But I think once they're done making that joke, nobody wants to see the entire industry impacted in the way that it may well be from this. And to the point about interior designers and competing more for those places at schools, that certainly may be one of the unintended consequences of this whole thing. It's hard to know, but it certainly is going to have an impact and it seems unfortunate. I don't know if there's any hope that this doesn't happen. There was some discussion about people getting together and trying to reach out to Congressman and others to try and stop this. What's your sense? Well, I think there's kind of two things. There's the overall spending caps on, you know, graduate lending, which I think probably will happen in some way, shape, or form. That seems pretty much a guarantee. Now, whether architecture gets reclassified as a professional degree, that could potentially happen. You know, there's a public comment period early next year. It doesn't really go into law until I think mid next year. So it's possible that some of these terms will be jiggered around and some of the numbers will go up or down. It's possible that architects may not see as much of an impact here, but then ironically enough, you have either way designers, you know, would be designers who want to go to grad school are going to see their lending captain at a much lower level, pretty much no matter what happens here. So, you know, if you're planning to on borrowing money from the government to go to graduate design school, this is of interest and of note, and we'll certainly come back to it when the numbers are finalized. Absolutely. In the short term, it looks like it's going to be a little bit harder and we'll see what impact that has. We definitely will revisit this, but in the meantime, we've got to move on Fred because we're going to talk about vertical video. Let's talk about vertical video for bioh's fall print issue. I wrote about how changes in the social media landscape, how shifted how designers are marketing themselves online. Should you focus on your portfolio or your personality, Dennis? What do you think? Pick one. You can only pick one. What do you focus on? Being without a portfolio, I have to focus on my personality and that's the problem that I have. My personality has to carry me a long way, Fred. Yes, same, same Z's. So what's really going on here, Fred? What's this all about? Let's take it back to the silent film era, and talk about that. In all seriousness, though, I was kind of thinking about how Instagram has changed so much recently. It used to be all about static images, and now it's all about surprise vertical video to compete with TikTok. I was just thinking about how no joke when the film industry transitioned from silent movies to talkies, it really changed which actors were popular. You had this whole generation of actors who excelled in the silent film era, and then suddenly we can hear their voices. There were a lot of actors with annoying voices who did not make the transition. I think you see these changes in media and how technological developments change winners and losers. You can even think about the more recent transition to Instagram. When Instagram came around, it was a new thing. Designers who got an early and figured out how to make images that popped on Instagram and figured out how to work the hashtag system really excelled. I feel like the celebrities of today in the design industry are people who figured out Instagram in 2012 and 2013, and so it follows that now the platforms are totally different, and what's popular there is vertical video. The stars of five years from now are going to be the people who figure out vertical video today. That was the thesis of the piece and I tried to explore what that really means for designers. Exactly. What it really means for designers, so part of what it seems to mean is do you have enough of a personality, do you are you enough of a performer, and you're absolutely right. Everyone needs to go back and rewatch singing in the rain and watch what happened when they came out of silent movies and into talkies and some of the people fell away because they weren't ready for it. I think this issue is being talked about so widely in conversations that I'm having and that I that I see everywhere I was having a conversation with Andre Malone the other night at the New York School of Interior Design. He was talking about the performative nature of interior design today and his dismay about the fact that there is this expectation that suddenly you need to be a character of some sort. You need to be sharing things in a way that he feels very strongly it is very anti what what both he grew up in the in the world of design and architecture believing but but also not something that that he is all about and wants very much for the work to speak for itself. And we were talking about Dan Fink earlier who also doesn't want to be doing vertical video behind the scenes at his shop right to imagine Dan Fink doing like a dance trends. Yeah, I mean, so I think a lot of people are really torn about this whole thing and I think one of the issues at play here as well is is the fact that some of these people have incredible personalities and are very charming and fun. Somehow masking or distracting us from a level of work that may or may not be worthy of all the followers that they've amassed or the influence that they now seem to have in the industry and that's what I'm hearing more and more from designers. That's such a good point and I think there probably are examples of people like that who of course will remain nameless here on the Thursday show but but I do think there's kind of another side to it which is that I think on some level like you know people have always hired an interior designer based around their their personality right like it's always been about more than just like is your work really beautiful or can you execute a beautiful living room. You know the vibe has always been important you know I think back to you know designer previews that amazing service that started I think in the 80s where it was a feature of course a New York icon who would she was like the classic New York matchmaker she would find the client and find the designer who was right for them and some of it was based around you know the look being right but a lot of it was like are they going to gel are they going to get along and I think that on some level. You know designers focusing on you know showing themselves appearing on camera and their social media and kind of giving their their followers a sense of who they really are as a person. I think is there's not all bad I think clients want to know like okay is this going to be a fun project is it more going to be sort of appreciating their mastery. Are they a serious person are they a silly person I don't think that that's all bad. Oh and I don't mean to suggest it's all bad at all and I think it's I think it's remarkable we've we've long talked about how incredible Instagram is in that it replaces the printing press and it replaces the need to be published in magazines and it replaces for so many people it's been freeing they can create their own platform their own voice they can show people their own work in their own way. So I think there are a ton of upsides to this and I think how great that people that do have this incredible personality and you're worried about Stephanie Sabi who I'm mad about and I'm thrilled that she gets to become known to so many people and I love her work and so that's I guess part of it. So Stephanie's work is exceptional and she's also fun and interesting and so great I was only suggesting that for some the concern is some people have incredible personalities and are really fun on Instagram but also you dig down into the grid sometimes look at some of their work and you go. No name let's protect the innocent. Nobody out but I mean listen when I'm at a dinner party and I'm sure this happened for you people love to whisper in my ear like look at the version there I'm so big on social media but what's the level of their work like and I just don't want that to be the main focus I think it's great that people can break out and and have a different kind of career today and listen you become you become a big star on social media all sorts of things. Social media all sorts of other opportunities and doors open for you and fantastic if that's what you want to be but I also don't want people coming up in the design industry thinking that you need to be a social media influencer in order to be a great designer. No I mean it's so complicated though right Dennis because like I agree with that all but then you take like okay look at Andre Malone and Dan think two very successful designers like at the top of their field. People who are not invested in being on vertical video and you know so there's clearly a pathway for that you don't you don't have to you know do dances on on TikTok and on Instagram but on the other hand I think both of them have had you know advantages of having like working for working for big firms or I think Dan was a lot he's very talented but he was also lucky to be in Silicon Valley at the right time and meet the right clients and if you're thinking like here I am a designer in a small city I don't know anyone I've never worked for a bigger designer like how am I going to get attention from my work this is one way to do it so you could say also that it's kind of an equalizer I don't know there's so many different ways to think about it. I kind of get a little bit confused when I start thinking is this a good thing or a bad thing because I agree it's good for some people it's bad for others I think it's just it's just is you know I was talking with someone we know Laura Binloss from the PR from Nylon she thinks a lot about this stuff and she said like this is what it is like the algorithm has as decided that this is what it's going to surface and you know the design industry to some degree is still operating a little bit three or four years ago and you don't have to do this you know but I think if you want to be big on social media or if you want to get eyeballs and then maybe leads on social media this is certainly a way to do it so you know good or bad I think it simply is well exactly and and it it exists and and it is this huge opportunity if you want us to do it. And it is this huge opportunity if you want to seize it and if you don't let's see what happens next year for those who decide they don't want to lean into this. I think Andre Malone and Dan think will be just right we'll check in right we'll check in with them and their careers and my guess is exactly they'll be doing just fine in the meantime we've got another controversy we've got to jump into this time it's all around color last week pantone chose a white shade called cloud dancer as it's 2026 color of the year sparking swift backlash from critics and yes they took to social media and great numbers some people burning their pantone books strong messages being sent what did you make of it all Fred well let's let's go to the critics that I care most about your Instagram followers Dennis and you put this up on your your your feed what do people say it was all over the place some people so Melissa Feldman long time journalists in the home industry just felt it was lazy and uninspired right and there were a lot of people just in that camp why didn't you just try harder for having them say many people took this as a as a strong racial statement and and felt that this was a this was a time where sending this kind of message was was not only irresponsible but but dangerous other people felt that surely they cooked this up as this brilliant PR scheme well done pantone there you go you wanted us to be talking about it and we're talking about it others designer Amy Vermillion you know did a did a video and sent me quite a lengthy note about listen more than anything we just wanted some fun color to lean into we're kind of done with white we're kind of done with the messaging around that and also she was worried that the white message was a bit of a recessionary message a lot our earlier conversation about rate cuts and I think a lot of people felt the same way you know are you saying oh we need to dial back the the color and the enthusiasm so a lot of opinions but a few people without an opinion for it let's say that that's well a lot to unpack there and my own take was this was a big bouquet was behind the maker take the social media the makers of ivory bouquet got in pantones here instead we're we're dying out there and that's a powerful group as we know yes I mean it's complicated I mean just to sort of break it down I mean I will say like the initial reaction among people that I follow an Instagram was much more about blah like come on like you designers love color we've been stuck in this kind of sad beige era I mean I personally I think sad beige to be done well but we've we've been in that moment for a minute and I think a lot of designers are really craving a return to color I think retailers are talking about it I'm sure our H color is just around the corner any minute exactly and so this felt a little bit weird like last year was mocha moose which felt like I'm sure some people sort of bored by that but it felt like it really hit the mark of what certainly interior designers were talking about was saying was the dominant look of the of the moment whereas I don't know I don't I don't get the sense that oh we're suddenly seeing a return to minimalism or paired down colorless looks at this this felt sort of strange to me and that was kind of the first initial round of reactions from designers you know and you know I I I agree with that you know I'm very much not a market editor or someone who like pays attention to as much attention to style or some of my colleagues but it seemed like a weird choice from that perspective you know you mentioned sort of the racial political angle you know I it's interesting because I do think like absolutely like the people's concerns about the you know racism in the design industry are totally founded it's not like we solved it in 2020 after the the reckoning that was was out in this industry and I think people should be you know rightly pointing out you know racial issues that come up come up in the industry. You know I can't imagine that Pantone was was going for that one they chose this but then you know there's the question of where they just simply naive that they not understand that it would be perceived you know that way by by people in the marketplace which is maybe a different you know a different kind of error but you know you said maybe this is sort of like a rage bait stunt like trying to get a conversation going and I I don't I don't know I don't imagine that they're too happy about how this is gone in the in the Pantone offices today what do you think that no exactly I don't I don't want to believe that this is what they wanted but I also it makes me wonder is there circle that small that they that they didn't know that this was going to cause that kind of reaction had they taken this out to a broader wider group of people I can't imagine it wouldn't have been shut down pretty pretty early on so it makes me wonder that did they get that feedback and said oh well who cares it's such a great color we're going to go with it anyway such a great I mean I just feel like we just love it so much I don't care if people are upset but anyway I mean all of that said it seems for designers as you were just suggesting more than anything just disappointing designers were we're feeling excited about color or they were feel oh let's let's get into maximalism let's get into where the English design is leading us all of those conversations and then this just seemed to knock all that down and again not that every designer is looking to Pantone as they're jumping off point for decisions that they're making but they they wanted a different message coming out of this clearly no question and I think it's also like it really is a sign of the times as you said like it's funny because they talked a lot about how you know this was the first time that Pantone had chosen you know any shade of white is this color of the year you know the 26 or seven years they've been doing it but actually Benjamin Moore did have I think it's simply white was in 2016 you know and at the time I think probably some people were bored by it but there I don't remember there being a controversy I think it was just like okay you know it just shows you how not only the political landscape is changed but also the media landscape is changed it's just you know it's like you you put something out people have a reaction to it people get angry somebody gets angry at the person getting angry like it's just a whole you know and of course now he and I are part of this now is so it just becomes unavoidable that everything becomes you know a football that gets kicked back and forth and it's funny because all this really is is a white square but a white square on Pantone's website and all of this controversy because of that kind of crazy lots of opinions and and I think mostly just regret around this choice so many people wondering should we keep doing color of the year Pantone I don't know we should have stopped a long time ago I do not see the utility in this but that's just me sorry that's the big message from this whole thing maybe this this ought to be it stick a stick a fork in it color of the year might just be done and that's it okay that's the big takeaway moving on unfortunately we have some sad news to share legendary American architect Frank Gary passed away last week at the age of 96 after establishing his own firm in 1962 he became known for his rebellious stylistic approach seen first in his bold redesign of his family's bungalow in Santa Monica though he earned the Pritzker architecture prize in 1989 one of his crowning achievements came later with the 1997 unveiling of the Guggenheim museum bill bow a titanium structure that helped revitalize the Spanish city sparking a wave of similar architectural efforts in cities across the globe as Gary told the New York Times in a 2012 interview you go into architecture to make the world a better place and I think you did I mean what a what an iconic architect what an amazing life you know it's really sad to lose both Frank Gary and Robert A. M. Stern within the span of just a week or a couple weeks these are both incredibly accomplished people I think it's kind of when you really step back to think about how idiosyncratic an eccentric Frank Gary's work was and how popular was on a massive scale it's really kind of impressive and it's something you can only sort of marvel at so this was you know a sad one but he certainly is left as mark you know all over the world to be sure and as you say both both Stern and Gary will be long studied and and remembered and taught in schools so really a meaningful impact for them both and yet their work so very different and their personalities to so so a lot to get into there all right that's it for the news but there's plenty more to check out on business of home dot com including the launch of a new wallpaper brand and black Friday wins and losses will be back in a minute but first a quick break celebrating their one year anniversary June LaLoi is your newest destination for total home furnishings as a young brand they bring a fresh perspective but as the brand run by the same family behind LaLoi rugs they bring plenty of hard one expertise and if you're a member of the trade June LaLoi's trade services remain unmatched back by 20 years in the industry and exclusive benefits including special pricing a dedicated support team and a seamless sourcing experience visit June LaLoi dot com to explore the latest and sign up for a trade account that's J O O N L O L O I dot com clients slow schedules when they're confused program a gives them a single dashboard with the latest schedules and approvals removing the back and forth that usually burns hours it keeps both sides aligned so your team can stay focused on the work use b o h twenty five for twenty five percent of your first three months and we're back I'm joined now by the president of james town michael phillips michael welcome back to the show thank you that's what a pleasure well it's been an age since we've talked I'm so glad to have you back and there's so much to catch up on you've been so busy in so many ways I want to start by having you explained to people a little bit about james town and all the many different things that you're involved with and then we'll then we'll talk design centers okay so on james town we're 42 years old now gosh it's gone by so fast I think we have been investing in in north and south america and central europe for retail office residential mixed use sort of hubs specializing a lot in the tech and media space but some of the things were known for in the US sort of things like Chelsea market and industry city and the Boston design center which is part of the IDB building and then series of hubs across cities like Amsterdam, Lisbon, Milan, Edinburgh, and Scotland, London, variety of sort of core cities throughout europe so a variety of things we have a neighborhood in in Milan which is a lot about fashion and showrooms and tech and so leads to the great love of home and design well I know I know that all roads lead back to your love of home and design so they do you mentioned Boston and last time we were talking you were getting very involved with the Boston design center and and there was a lot going on there things have changed somewhat with your role there or or tell me no I mean I think it's still the same I think the we at the time the Boston design center is part of a 1.3 million square foot assemblage of an old army warehouse on the port of Boston and like a lot of things that had become fractured ownership over time we brought it back together we created new infrastructure we consolidated the design center into about 350,000 feet from where it started which was just shy 500,000 feet and created a new retail concourse on the ground which was for trade showrooms that wanted to be open to the public as well as sort of an award winning restaurant called 3D and a series of service uses but really sort of reinforcing that trend which I think is happening around many things but certainly around design which is you're seeing the evolution of street interior design and showrooming as well as retail to the trade and alongside fashion style brands and so we've really focused a lot in places like DC and Georgetown or in in Atlanta in sort of creating these districts which are anchored in home but also have lifestyle and fashion as part of that interesting because another one of the things that we touched on last time we were talking you were you were eager for the design industry to be talking to the consumer much more and perhaps even re-evaluating the to the trade pricing model and all of that have your thoughts altered or or or changed in any way around all of that or is that still a message that you're preaching well let's unpack that a little bit because I think the nuance of that is important which is I think what I have been focused on and advocating for or preaching for lack of a better word is that the barrier at the front door come down I think showrooms their pricing models should be maintained I think it's important for designers to have an option in how they engage with the required amount of hands on service it takes to take raw goods and turn them into finished goods but what I think showrooms should do is have a retail price and a trade price and be willing to engage and provide the support when a consumer comes and wants to do business with them because part of what's happening in the world of social media is that more and more people think that they're qualified to do things that they may or may not be qualified to do and have access to get those things but the industry also is challenged by the fact that they want more footfall and more access and more exposure but to have your door locked and want to be on the street doesn't work or to want more foot traffic but not be willing to engage them and educate them doesn't work and so I think they're brands that are steadfastly committed to only dealing with professional designers which I support but at the same time then you have to be willing to not be at main and main or be in an intersection where the public comes to you. On the other hand I think there are there are lots of brands that have models that they have experimented with companies like Schumacher and Kravitt for example who come to mind or the shade store or something like that that is sort of doing a hybrid model and I think that's a real growth path for how the industry can experiment. Let's start by talking about you getting involved in the Dakota and what was interesting to you about that opportunity so one of the buildings that formerly was Charles Cohen's and let's just say he had to had to part with it and the investors sort of go back and then and then you stepped in tell me tell me how that came about and what you're what you're thinking was. I think there's incredible cohesion and commitment to the ecosystem of design and home certainly in the United States and Britain and to a large extent in central Europe. I think that as the industries evolve it's become quite lumpy in terms of the experiences that people have in different buildings and so I certainly have an interest in playing a bigger role in that space and the Dakota is really unique in that obviously South Florida has grown in lots of ways and you have splintering happening in Naples or in West Palm Beach for example. You have the Miami design district which is sort of a hybrid but is sort of moving away from home incrementally over time and so I think that Dakota offers something that's really interesting in that critical mass for shop ability and for inspiration and for engagement is important and I think the design the fortress design center model is really important as a part of the ecosystem and as other parts of the industry start to co-locate whether it's architecture engineering, commercial specification firms, AV companies, things that are that are support systems around the industry I think those kinds of buildings are really important. I also think that things like Fabric which is a big driver of the industry is best shopped when you can shop it widely across a lot of different solutions. So I like that and so taking over the Dakota was an exciting thing for us and has been a lot of fun so far which we just had a great fall market. We just ran a really interesting design speaker breakfast which is good and and we've done a lot of recent leasing there and renewals which has been terrific. We believe in kind of an in good company strategy so people that are not necessarily in our building that are in the Hollywood design center or Miami or Palm Beach. We want everybody to come together as a design community and we think we can provide some stewardship around that and sort of ensuring that that that beachhead is broad enough to encompass people but also that particularly in looking at things we have a significant Andy in presence in South America and our business and we're very focused on that sort of import export IP and trade culture between North and South America and the Dakota's role in that but also looking much more towards Europe and what we've seen happen with our basil and with Miami design and all of those things that are bringing in great companies. Well that's part of what I'm wondering because when you talk to when you talk to some of the skeptics about the Dakota they will say oh people moved out years ago it's time has passed so people have figured out another plan right they've moved elsewhere and they've made other parts of town they've made other areas in Miami more dynamic and there isn't the there isn't the pole to come back to the Dakota in a meaningful way. What's your what's your sense of that? Well I think that design has undergone several waves of change. I think we have been living in the last sort of 15 years on the downward pressure on multi-line showrooms just like we've lived through the downward pressure on multi-line fashion stores and so I think what is happening is more specific individual stores and showrooms around us a single brand and I also think that it's never a one-size-fits-all solution and so there are people who have left the design center and have found other great places to be and can participate in events and programming and there are people who need space and need co-location and we're actively leasing to those people so I don't think it's it's like saying there's only the Upper East Side in New York and there's not Tribeca or Soho or the Lower East Side or Financial District or or Chelsea and so I think there's lots of room in the ecosystem for everything to thrive. So part of the hope it sounds like this whole co-locate I mean interestingly I was just talking to Dan Cahoon from Jerry Pear who's an ADAC right and clearly the model of having a whole bunch of design firms located in that design center it is really helping the vitality and right and the feeling that business is doing well. Right and I think it is also there's no questioning that the Dakota has not been functioning well for more than two decades. I think just operating it with more intentionality and through the lens of really caring about the ecosystem and about the industry is yielding good results and I think there is the power of co-location which in this industry still is not it still exists. I mean you can go to Chelsea Harbor and you can say I've heard for 30 years Chelsea Harbor is not convenient. It's not it's there's nothing to eat there it's too far to go and Pymlka Road is so nice and we feel so good going to Pymlka Road. There's only so much Pymlka Road and there's a full building in Chelsea Harbor and you want a shop as I did three weeks ago for Grasscloth for headliners on a boat. Place that you do that is at Chelsea Harbor and I think that that is true across the board. Well what's interesting that you mentioned Chelsea Harbor and so I was just with Claire German recently who brings so much energy and vitality to that design center and makes you feel right like somebody is on the beat and events galore that giant holiday party that they just had I mean wow house exactly I mean you just feel like somebody is bringing energy to that space and it feels like that's what you need in these in these design centers to make them thrive. You know I come from a farming and ranching family ultimately originally and good land management is about nourishing the soil and rotating crops and you know leaving fields follow and not over strip farming and it's the same thing in any business in any activity whether it's your garden in your house or at your home or it's or it's a real estate business. And so I think nourishing things and showing them love and paying attention and showing up is out the battle. Well so do your point to your point about the Dakota I mean do you do you first have to just sort of helicopter in there and just kind of hold people's hands a little bit and say listen I know things have been rough for a while but we're here now we're going to re-energize this place and we're going to get it back I think so and I think that I think if you were to talk to people today I think the energy is very different than it was I also think that that has been a struggle an intense public media struggle for several years that we've all followed from the edge of our seats and so I think there's more changes to come there and and we are certainly motivated to be a part of the solution. And I wonder I mean to what I assume you're alluding to the some of these very powerful design centers being concentrated in one person's hands for all of these years despite that person either clearly losing interest in the business or or just making different financial decisions and not wanting to invest in that space in a meaningful way. The decorative center in Houston now no longer part of the of the Cohen portfolio and if you want to tell me that you're stepping in there feel free I don't know. I would certainly love to step in there and you're certainly interested in participating in that solution. Okay so perhaps talks are ongoing you'll let me know but but then also I mean we've got that we've got the D&D building which I'm guessing you'd also love to have right to tell me about conversations you want to know. I'm suffice to say I think that we would love to be a participant in the solution of and the evolution of design in the United States at scale and I think also given what's happening with tariffs I think there's a real value to IP from overseas being produced in the United States and distributed in the United States and that there's an opportunity in that space as well. And the ability to turn the levers around you know we wake up every day thinking that we're only successful of our tenants are successful and how can we make their businesses better and how can we help them thrive. And I think that the ability to do that and speak in a few markets at once I think is a level of efficiency that is that is important to undertake and so where we can be helpful we want to do that. You just mentioned what's happening with tariffs so what what in your mind is happening with tariffs what do you think the impact of all of this has been and do you think this will have a lasting impact on a lot of manufacturing coming back to the States or how we think differently about imports or what's your what's your take. So I think that the industry that we're talking about as a craft is fundamentally a craft industry and I think we have so much skill in this country around that and there's things like the makers alliance which grew out of the urban electric partnership. So if you start to think about what does on showing manufacturing look like and what's the opportunity in that it's tremendous when we certainly made beautiful furniture in America very early and some of that is some of the most valuable furniture one can buy today. I think tariffs not going to comment on good bad different but to say that to have more things made in America is not a bad thing and I think having distribution channels which we've seen evolved with the advent of social media and people's ability to direct speak directly to a consumer and to connect is fascinated. I would like to encourage more of that and to the extent that the interdesign showroom industry can be great supporters of that I think it's only positive outcome. You mentioned Charleston and let's segue into talking about what you're doing there because there's a lot of excitement and let's talk about Charleston and what you've done so far and what the big plan is. So we own that what I would call the residue of the Charleston Navy yard which was the largest naval installation on these coasts United States and we own about a hundred and 10 acres there which has a series of buildings and really some tenants who are pretty amazing that have that were born out of that facility. Urban electric being one for its porter being another a great local Smithie ironworks being a third Robert long lighting another one so as we think about the rich kind of diverse ecosystem of the Carolinas more broadly but specifically Charleston and the college of the building arts and you know kind of traditional building skills. It really dawned on me celebrating that would be a really unique opportunity and I would say a couple things about the south and the southern states that the seven southern states that represent the southern region of design which Atlanta has always been headquarters for a day. That is shifted over the last few years and the pilgrimage that southern cities made to Atlanta and people's willing to do that has shifted and so you're seeing design districts pop up in a few different places Nashville Charlotte so I think Charleston being a city that really is steeped in architectural heritage and a food culture and certainly. A driving tourism culture as well as a flying tourism culture has a neat contribution to make the design space on top of the companies we just talked about who kind of seated it so we have just opened our first phase of what will be the sort of broader Charleston design district. With Collins Sherry, Schumacher, Crabbit we have textures flooring company we have a variety of home interior design firms that are there as well and we're about to announce in the next wave of those showrooms but the idea is to create a dialogue between what is indigenous quality of the place but also to bring world class design to. The Carolina low country and like Spaletto did almost 40 years ago in arts and culture in the split of festival it's not about just exporting what is from Charleston it's about creating this this global design conversation and really kind of thinking about it from the construct of both the coastal markets from the outer banks to North Florida but also the mountain and second home market and obviously all the. The city's in between and the and the the kind of first home markets in between and so so far it's been received really positively and and it's humble it's not intended to be a great grand gesture of statement but to really kind of express what is happening in that conversation so we have amazing companies like Juliska that the crystal company is based in Charleston and so. And so you know and I think you know I really love design and quite a few personal expressions of that love so that you'll get another house in Charleston so I think which you desperately needed and I'm so glad you're able yes no it's it I I don't know what I was thinking before I don't know how you were living without it for so long exactly so yeah well but it's interesting what you mentioned because and this is going on around the country but you many. But you mentioned you mentioned Atlanta and everyone at one point making making the trip but but now many people in Atlanta are realizing hey I've got I've got to go old to these different territories I've got to go to Nashville I've got to go to Charlotte right I've got to make sure that people are are being taken care of and it's created this challenge around this design center model. A little pop up how does that work how do you think about it and I'm curious how you imagine that evolving I mean Charleston we think of as a relatively small market it well I mean it's so it's a million direct residents in the region growing to 2 million so it's not necessarily a tiny market but it's also rapidly growing. And when you expand that region up and down the coast and inland is quite astounding the the size of that market and so I think most companies will tell you that some of their most productive southern zip codes are within a hundred miles and so in terms of the design showrooms and so I would say a little bit I would call this earlier part of the conversation about the Dakota conversation I think there's plenty of room for everything and I think it is about the densification of regions for a long time Palm Beach was not a solution other than South Dixie highway for antiquing which were all addicted to do I mean I do doing I I cannot tell you how many things in my life come from South Dixie and so I think the idea that there's a burgeoning design district culture on south towards Avenue and on South Dixie is really great and robust right and if you think about that from a from Is that a threat to South Florida and the Dakota no I think it's more in the process so I think it's a little bit I'd say the same thing about Atlanta is that you know 50 years ago 60 years ago Lenox mall and Fibs mall were the only option and if you wanted to buy school clothes and fall clothes for your family you drove two to five hours to Atlanta and you stayed in a motel hotel around Lenox mall and you did your seasonal shopping and you drove back to your town right and I think eight ack was built on that model and eight ack was also owned by the portmans and they loved it and cherished favored lots of great things on that for a long time and and I think that that as things of all you know I think there's room in that space as well so again coming back to the D&D building I mean I know that there are challenges with that space and the land lease and all all of this I mean do you think ultimately that design center remains a design center I do I think it's the single most dynamic design center in America I think you'd find a large number of the people who would say if it was fixed tomorrow they would go right back there. What do you think you would need to do to bring that building back to the time where it had a restaurant that was vibrant and had a had a scene and and and you were always just bumping into all these 80 100 designers in the hallways and and it just felt like there was there was just a lot more vitality activity there. I think I've good taste and a point of view and and a sense of hospitality and I think people will be happily back there do you draw plans imagining that day Michael do you think you cannot comment on that. I will tell you that I'm designing a really cool restaurant in Charleston right now. Okay tell me tell me that. Okay. Sort of loosely based on beach clubs in the Mediterranean. I think food is is an essential part of any home conversation obviously and what I think is also really fascinating when you speak to people who have really thriving home markets it's because people really do like to entertain in their homes. Yeah and I think part of the problem with the food conversation about restaurants is they move too far away in many respects from something that feels like an extension of your home and I think that there's an opportunity in that space. No I think I mean I think there's such a huge opportunity I mean I think of the PDC in LA and I'm curious your thoughts about the LA design scene in general the PDC used to have all these different restaurants at one point. Right yeah and and that building also is crying out for some some help escalators are often not working the elevator I mean it's odd that they raised the parking rates there. It seems like it seems like an interesting way to solve a bigger problem. Yeah well the big big problem is just the way to to put it I wonder. I mean and in such an enormous market and we're joking but it's not it's not at all funny Michael it's it's sad and unfortunate and I wonder what the what the answer is there. Yes I think that's a head scratch I mean but I again I think that's a market that it's some of the best shopping in the world. Yes for home in La Brea and in Melrose and all these incredible markets I think there's room for lots of things to happen I think that Pacific Design Center has an opportunity to play a really important role in that stewardship and I think you have incredible people like Becky Burdwell who are you know working and and niven brain folks and all these people that are promoting design and the conversation of design and the culture around education and that space I think is really fascinating. And what's interesting I mean to your point about the vibrant street activity I'm amazed how good business seems to have been you talk to Dave Dawson at Urban Electric he's like yeah it's had the best months I ever had the best year I ever had it's all just going so great the fabric companies they all just sound like they're crushing it and here we've had tariffs and here we've had everybody's I mean we hear people are stretched and we've had this runaway inflation and this affordability issue I mean. I think there's also a lag in the adjustment to some of that because I think house projects are long me time projects and once you're committed you're you're not deviating right I think you know yeah but I think I think there is a renewed commitment that has been playing out over the last sort of three quarters of a decade of people really reprioritizing home and I think we saw also sort of an early shift in geographic moves related to retirement or to and from both Millennials Gen X and and baby boomers all at once right I think we just saw a real compression on that and I think you've seen it in the cities I mean you know I think we I think we would be remiss if we didn't touch on Max Eams and let's talk about a credible impact that that's had on the that convergence of the the reemergence of Madison Avenue as a retail street obviously was happening before Max Eams but you know I live on the Upper East side and I am just enthralled with the energy and how exciting it all is and to top it off now we have Max Eams which it's challenging us all design wise to because yes such a genius and so you know didn't we all go home and rethink a room or think what we would do with trim or you know something that we would do differently because of Robin Burley I think so no absolutely and how funny that the Wall Street journal would be writing about the Upper East side being cool again and I right I mean yes and the whole club the private club scene in general is so interesting which leads me back to discussion about these these different design shows and and what's going on there we were talking about Milan earlier right some people have right salone which such a huge show huge impact and now it's gotten so huge that people are saying I can't even go there anymore I need to go to Copenhagen for three days of design instead or I need to go to some other show what's your what's your sense of all of that where is all of that moving Paris in January or or as many people excited about that as they once were I don't know I mean what do you think you know I think the inspiration and trend comes and waves for everyone so I think Copenhagen is and Scandi design is on everybody's lips you know I think people who love Paris will always go back to Paris right and I've spent you know gosh now thirty five January's in Paris and I think Milan offers something that is an intersection of fashion and home that is really fascinating that you don't see so much elsewhere and so you know I it's funny this faux buzzer company right that it's like how it's blown up everyone's social media for the last two and a half years right but did anyone other than Michael Smith really know a lot about it but in a way that is that's the Maxine's trend for the upper east side is faux buzzer for Paris right so we're all reignited in French wiserie and and how we can live with more of it no I I'm with you I mean who doesn't want to buy an entire ruleman library and all right I mean exactly exactly I know I do no I know I do too he's got no problem selling it to us and I listen and and that was so interesting to see him come to the D&D building and I think it speaks to the what he perceived to be the caliber of designer that was coming there and I think they still are coming there to all the elevators work their way they should know is you know but the building was always I mean let's face it if you live in New York you live with compromise and I was looking at these terrorist doors I have and and thinking you know I could replace them but why why would I want to get rid of a 75 year old terrorist or if I can just rebuild it yeah and that's I think the same thing I would say about the D&D and all of its flaws okay okay well so I mean you you can't you can't tell me what's going to happen with the D&D building or the PDC but or Houston I mean all of them I don't I don't have any I don't have any news but I will say that the Dakota is exciting we're in the middle of refresh and redesign of the public spaces and we're launching a really interesting sort of marketplace for stalls and kiosks around pop ups for design and and brands which I think will be really interesting and do you think do you imagine Charleston being a place where we see more consumers coming and brands getting more comfortable with that I don't get the sense that since you and I last spoke many of these brands have gotten all that more comfortable with servicing the consumer maybe you have a different take I don't think Brian Dicker at Holland and Sherry is too interested in serving the consumer you tell me I don't know I think that's probably right but I think that I think he's also in the second floor of a building that is not he's not on the ground floor right and so I think that I think that's your choice but I also think that I think you see more and more home companies having retail to the trade you know the industry has always hoped that somehow magically it would reach the wealthy end consumer with its brand and its name so that that that wealthy end consumer would say to their designer oh I want to have Baker furniture right that was always the hope whether it was through advertising an architectural digest or whatever whatever they were doing to try and reach that person but they didn't want to actually be servicing that person directly and I'm wondering how we how we get there I think it may be a bridge of having like design centers have designers on call or they have referral networks to other designers I think you see designers as celebrities today which is you know the celebrity of designer is an interesting topic that you should tackle definitely that I think I think I mean just look at Pimico Road or look at Rooja Cove or look at there are lots of showrooms that are open to the public that are part of this this ecosystem so I wouldn't say that people aren't lining up to do it because the streets are filling every day with more design stores and design showrooms yeah and brands that were historically not on the street I do think you always are going to have a problem of education and of of what it takes to service an untrained customer and so that there will always be value for a designer well exactly and that's always been the biggest challenge and that is the role that designers have have played and hopefully we'll continue to play I know I need to let you go and get into a meeting so Michael thank you so much such a pleasure and we're back we're getting to the end of the show here but before we go we'd like to take a second to highlight anything going on in the industry that might have caught our eye Fred actually furniture caught my eye which doesn't often happen on the Thursday show because we mostly focus on the high end but I was struck that the really it's it's an enormous furniture company we should be talking about the more really struck a deal with a company called Proplexity which is an AI search engine and the reason they did it is because they're you know this this happened a lot on black Friday we should be talking about that too but AI is increasingly getting into the way people search for products and buy them so instead of going to Google you go to your chatbot of choice you say I want a present for my fellow podcast host make it classy you know and the chatbot gives you a product recommendation that you can click to buy and you know more and more retailers are making partnerships with these chatbots actually we're certainly I think the first solely home furniture focus brand to make one of these deals but they will certainly not be the last I think by this time next year Warren Shoeberg said this I say this more or less every big retailer will have will have these deals and people will be doing a lot more AI powered shopping so that'll be certainly a story to unpack in the new year Dennis did you do any AI powered shopping this year? I actually am pretty impressed with AI's ability to point me in the direction of many things that I want Fred and and I regret to say that much of the black Friday shopping was in fact for myself I feel terrible to admit that but there you go you're not I don't think you're alone in that what cut what cut your eye these things you know it's funny a couple of Dan Rosen related items caught my eye this week so first Dan Rosen was doing a house tour of Kendall Jenner's property which I'm sure many have seen by now and he starts off saying well unfortunately I actually really like this yeah so good so bad news it's good couldn't challenge it and of course part of the reason he couldn't is because as many people know Heidi Kellier did the design and of course it looks amazing and so Dan who was already in a ripet apart just couldn't because it was actually quite pleasant the other fun Dan Rosen bit that I noticed was a friend of the show Michael Diaz Griffith made an appearance on Dan Rosen's middle brow podcast fun conversation was had with Michael about about antiques and young people and and where this is all going and it was actually quite a fun and colorful conversation so fun to see the the DLN head and also noted young antiques supporter and encourager on the show yeah cool I love middle brow it's a really fun show it touches a lot of different things and it's a Kendall Jenner thing was she it's honestly I've heard through the grapevine that she's like really into design she has really good taste it's not an act you know it's always it's always unfortunate when those people are sincerely sincerely great but I you know congratulations to Heidi couldn't you know the fame couldn't be happening to a nice person and a better designer so kudos all around me no no absolutely and someone who who came to fame on social media but not because of vertical videos so another interesting point there for that conversation all right that's all the time we have today thanks so much for listening if you want to keep up with the latest news browse job listings or take a workshop visit us online at businessofhome.com if you want to get in touch with the show write to us at [email protected] this episode was produced by Fred Nikolaus and Caroline Burke and edited by Michael Castaneda I'm Dennis Scully have a great weekend and we'll be back with you on Monday