The Therapist's Obsession: Part 2

The following program contains names, places and events that have been anonymized or fictionalized for the purposes of protection and safety. The following program is provided for entertainment purposes only, and any commentary from the hosts are strictly conjecture and should not be held as making any definitive statements about the truth or identity of any particular individuals or circumstances. If you or a loved one are involved in an abusive relationship, please call the National Domestic Violence Hotline at 1-800-799-7233-4-Support. Happy Dating Detectives Monday! Oh my gosh, we're so close to the live show! I know like next week, next week! Wait, this week because the episode comes out on Monday! Yeah, so like in three days, for whatever, we are, oh my gosh, I cannot wait to see everybody. Our last live show was amazing, and our audience was a great, our guests, like our sleuthies were there, and it was just so cool, so if you haven't gotten your tickets yet, get them! I think there's a few left! So we ask something of anybody who is coming to the show in Chicago or one of the shows in August in Orlando or Tampa. If you have a dogfish story, and it does not have to be a super long one, it doesn't have to be super involved, even if it's just like kind of gossip vibes, you have the chance to come on stage and tell us, and we get to ask you questions about it and talk about it, and you know, yeah, but about it with you, and if you want to share that, you need to send us an email to investigate at thedatingdetectivespodcast.com. Same place you send your stories, yeah. Yeah, say what show you're coming to, and say a little about your story, and you might get to come on stage with us. So let us know, and first of all, thank you in advance for your bravery, but we're so excited to see everybody who's coming. Also, I just want to express our gratitude for you, like the support of our show has been phenomenal, whether you're a sleuthy, and you're just a listener or you're a Patreoner, we really, really, really appreciate your support. Thank you. It's been so amazing to create this community of people that are, you know, supporting one another and sharing these stories and putting words to it so that it's a little less scary to talk about. I want to mention something based on kind of what you're saying, because you were talking about how amazing our community is, and how supportive our community is, and I completely agree, and this week, especially it's been, you know, you've been anxious to hear part two, and there's been so much support for Emily, but we definitely got some, not really a lot, but like a comment or two saying early on in this episode, it's like there might be another side to the story, or my intuition is telling me that this might not ring true. So we just wanted to address that if people are feeling like that with any episode. First of all, we legally have to change little parts of the story to anonymize it. We have to leave it out. Yeah, we have to leave it out. Yeah. So you might not be privy to all the information. There are court cases involved in this specific story that we are leaving out because they involve other players in the story, and also because for our guest safety and for legal reasons, we don't want them to be able to be identified, and they would have made it easier to identify, and that's just like not something we will ever do. We do fact check all the court cases involved in a story because that's public, and we can do that. We also, you know, anything we can verify, we can. Obviously, we can't verify if somebody was abused as a child and it was not reported. However, we're choosing to believe our guests. And here, that's what we do. We give survivors the floor, and it's so important to do that. Like our job is to hear these stories, to be witnesses to these stories, and learn from them and understand them for all of the other people who need their stories heard. And we promise that we're doing everything we can to make sure it's accurate and legally accurate and ethical. And if you ever don't feel that way, we just want to remind you that our guests read the comments, and you can feel however you want to feel, but we ask that you don't maybe make comments invalidating a story in a public part of the comment section. I mean, I know we can't, like, control what you do, but it's just they are real people, real victims. Try to be, try to be a little bit more tactful in your comments and just understand that there's, and this is for me as a PI for 20 years, some of these stories, you're like, oh, there's no way, but I'm telling you this stuff really happens whether you believe it or not. And you could really, it could be impending on someone's healing or their, their journey, whatever it is, just try to keep that stuff in mind. But, but we, we had a good chat. We have had it up with the group chat girls. There has been so much support, though, too. So much more support than not. So thank you so much for just showing your love and the supporting Emily. And this is crazy. What tears gone through. Yeah, I just can't, but I was so mad the whole time. Truly kept me up last night. We finished recording like yesterday. And I, I was thinking about it as I went to bed. We left off part one, Sarah, her therapist, just Kister, which for many reasons is unethical and horrible. But unfortunately, it gets worse from here. Go back to part one if you haven't listened. There's a whole context of where our guest Emily grew up and where she came from. And it's totally shapes the dynamic that's about to unfold. Also, just a little trigger warning. There's talk of a loss of a pregnancy. And there is talks of suicide. And so if those things are really triggering for you, I just wanted to, you know, kind of give you a little heads up on that. But again, these are real stories. And it's so hard to hear. So I get it. But that's why we like to give those little trigger warnings. Yeah. But the ending is, I mean, like what Emily's doing with her life now is amazing. So spoiler alert. If you need it, if you need a little help, shall we? Yeah. Yeah, let's give the floor back to Emily. You guys, hold on to your frigging pants, y'all. And we're just kind of like staring at each other. And I was like, can I have my keys? And she stands in front of the door. And I was like, okay, so the police, the police are coming because now she's not letting me leave. And I walked a little bit closer to her. And then she kissed me. That's not, that's not, that's not, that's not. And I, when I tell you, I didn't even process what was happening right away. Has she ever expressed even being like queer at all? She had made, because she was the first person I had ever come out to. And when I was coming out, she told me that she had the college roommate, that she had the fling left. But then followed it up with, but I think everyone has a college fling. Okay. So she kisses you in this vulnerable, vulnerable moment. And not like, oh, a quick peck on the lips, her hands are on my face. We are full blown making out. So then we're done making out. And she immediately hands my, me my keys and stuff aside and opens the door. And like, it doesn't say a word. And it was very much like, get the fuck out. And so I sprinted out over our office. I'm like, what the fuck just happened? I really couldn't even begin to clearly think about anything. I was also, I don't know that I've mentioned it, but I was also actively using drugs during this time. I was addicted to opioids. Well, she know that. Yeah. Yeah. There was a time even where she had got like, she was very much someone who was like, oh, if the drugs are what's keeping you alive, that's good enough. Like, that's not a thing. This is like, this list is piling up. And I'm like, hindsight's 2020. And I'm still looking at it through the lens of where you were coming from or you or taking what adults in your life were telling you and barely trusting them. And you trust it. It's the only one you can trust. Good. And it felt good. Here's this woman that I admire who I literally think walks on water. Here she is caring about me. Here she is following through with everything that she says she's going to do. Here she is treating me the way that no one has ever treated me before. And prior to her kissing me, if someone would have asked me, oh, if you could have a personal relationship with her, what kind of relationship would you want? I would have wanted her to be my mom. Like, I have blonde eyebrows naturally and didn't draw my eyebrows on for years. And so I just looked like I had no eyebrows. And she was the first person to be like, here, let me teach you. Oh, my God. Like, it was those kinds of things where it's like, it's not, it's not bad things that she's doing. These are kind actions. Yeah. But it's just now. Yeah. So take us to the car. You get in your car and you're driving home. Yeah. Walk us through all of that. So I don't remember the car ride home. I think I was so out of it at that point where I really couldn't process what had happened. Part of me was like, it maybe it didn't happen. I was like, did I take too much drugs? Am I hallucinating? Like, never once would I have thought that that's where that was. going to go and so I get home and I immediately scheduled a follow-up appointment for the next week and I spent that week really just like I took the week off from work I had not planned on being alive at this point either and so I just was really blaying around doing nothing like I was I was really just waiting for this like opportunity to see her again and for what reason to ask for clarity or I think I had decided that I was going to pretend like it didn't happen I was obviously alive so I might as well continue therapy and like I think the curiosity in me was like we I at least need to have one conversation about this yeah and I couldn't live with the idea of her not being in my life I would rather her have kissed me and this would have been one weird like I could move on from it I could move on very easily from it did her kissing you give you any inkling of oh maybe this could be something or were you just absolutely not that wasn't a thing I think I wasn't allowing myself to consider that maybe it would be a thing because I didn't believe that she actually felt that way about me I believed that she knew I wouldn't kill myself till I at least got the opportunity to talk to her about it and so it it felt very manipulative yeah very so I think there was this small part of me that was like this is my end this is how I get to talk to this like I no longer have to wait to see her once a week if we have a relationship I get to see her every day and I wasn't anticipating that this was going to become a relationship that there was even like I knew the rules I knew that this didn't happen I was very much prepared I was hoping that she wouldn't fire me but I was prepared to never see her again and so I go ahead and it's good to see the appointment for the following week or normal time normal everything and I am sitting in the parking lot and I get this email that my session has been cancelled and I immediately was like what the what so I call the front desk and I was like well why is my session being cancelled and she's like oh Sarah had a family emergency she isn't be out the rest of the afternoon and I was like okay interesting because her car is here okay like okay and I think that's and I was kind of like what the fuck you owe me this you owe me a conversation yes 100% and so I just go home and again half a shitty week and my expectation that was that at the very least she would call me on Monday and so I think then when Monday comes around or even email me or literally anything where it's like hey sorry I messed up like like she had to know that I was freaking the fuck out I was 20 years old so Monday comes around nothing Tuesday the rest of the week Friday comes where our scheduled session once again I'm sitting in her parking lot and she cancels the appointment so I waited another week so we're out three weeks now since this has happened I don't even drive to her office I'm waiting for the cancellation email it comes I'm sitting at home on my kitchen counter get the email and I'm like well thank god I didn't drive so I was like I'm gonna schedule one more and if she doesn't show up to this I'm done I scheduled it two days before I come she cancels and I didn't realize how upset I would be when she cancels I think again I was even more upset because now she canceled two days ahead which means there's no last minute logical cancellation like she's planning on not being there to see me yeah and so I send her an email and I was just like we need to talk here it sent it and this woman has the audacity to email me back and tell me that I am more than welcome to schedule an appointment anytime and I my god and I just was like what the fuck that's all I've been trying to do I was pissed if you are like me then you love a no makeup makeup look and for a long time I feel like I just makeup would look too heavy on me too cakey unnatural it just didn't bring out the best so I go to one of the leading makeup artists in the no makeup makeup world Jones Road Beauty is by Bobby Brown and I love the products because they are so easy and they just look like me I'm obsessed with the Jones Road Beauty Miracle Boom especially the color sunkissed which I just looked and it's sold out that's how good it is so keep an eye on when it comes back but there's all these other colors and you can use it as a highlighter a bronzer a blush a lip tint it's ultimate no fuss multi-tasker and all of the products are actually good for your skin so every formulas packed with skin loving ingredients and it's not gonna clog or cake and it feels natural and it feels honestly like you're not wearing any makeup at all they do have a new product a foundation stick the skincare forward foundation and it's buildable it's real coverage so this is a good combo of coverage but still weightless there are 30 shades to match a wide range of skin tones and I think you'll really love it anything you get from Jones Road Beauty you will love modern day makeup that's clean strategic and multifunctional for effortless routines for a limited time our listeners are getting a free full-size mascara on their first purchase when they use code dating detectives at checkout just had to Jonesroadbeauty.com and use code dating detectives at checkout after you purchase they will ask you where you heard about them so please support our show and tell them our show sent you and so finally the session comes and I had gone into it very much expecting this to be like I fucked up how long did you wait to see her so at this point it had been exactly a month so and so oh wow okay wow and we had had zero contact in that month and when I tell you it was agonizing and going into it I thought it was just going to be like this sorry it was one time saying you know whatever and I am sitting in the waiting room and she walks in and she's immediately giddy she's smiling like she looked too excited for the conversation that I thought we were about to have and I was not and so I was like I am missing something here so we get back to her office she closes the door immediately kisses me again oh my god oh my god oh my god again like I just was not expecting it and so we are making out a little bit we stop you sit down on her couch and I always sat on the couch she always sat in her therapist chair but she sat down next to me and it's holding my hand and I was so confused out what was happening my brain was short-circuiting it didn't even know what to try to think I'm just kind of sitting there and she starts us speak again where she's like I'm so lucky to know you you're such a wonderful person your heart is so big your ex-wife didn't deserve you I can love you the way that you've never been loved and just all of these super affirming like you're you're wonderful you're so smart nobody understands you the way that I do and hearing those things made me feel so good yep the cure was this woman that I admired that I was starting to find attractive like she wasn't attractive woman I'm not gonna pretend like she wasn't but I had never thought of her that way but then it's like now I'm thinking about her that way now I'm seeing how attractive she really is and I cared about her so much I remember going home and and thinking I can do this I can have this sexual relationship with her because that means she won't abandon me like I was very much like I can do whatever she needs me to do to satisfy her I knew that logistically there was going to be a lot of problems if this was something that continued at the end of the day she was my therapist people knew she was my therapist but I think in my mind here she was telling me how wonderful I am how perfect I am how she can't imagine life without me nobody has ever done that for me before and it felt so good it felt so good to have this woman who knows me so intimately she knew that my deepest and darkest secrets and to be so vulnerable and to be so open and then to have this person that I respected so much and she's telling me if she consulted an attorney she has looked into the athletes she's telling me it's unethical but it's not illegal like she was so prepared to come in and be like here's the rules here's what's happening now and that's kind of what that entire session was about we made out for the first couple minutes and then it was like here's here's what I think we should do we can see each other but we just have to be smart about it and I knew in my mind I'm like what the fuck am I doing why am I even considering this and I just I knew I knew I was going to end badly but like I didn't really care if I had to see it through so our session time is coming to an end and she's like I'll see you next week we can continue and continue talking about it. And I was like, you're gonna make me wait a week and she was like, well, I guess if you want to, we could meet at a hotel tonight, but only if you want to. - Oh, well. - So I agreed to meet her at a hotel and despite the fact that she was the one who asked me to go to the hotel with her, she was like, you need to go and check in early in case someone sees us. So I get there assuming she's paid for the hotel room. - The audacity. - She had put the hotel room in my name and had not paid for it. - Yeah. But at that point, the hotel was two and a half hours away from where we lived. And so I was like, I've already driven two and a half hours. I'm gonna stay. And then I started realizing maybe she's not going to show up. Maybe I'm being tied with. But a couple hours passed by and she did show up. And I opened the door and I kid you not. By the time she walked across the room, all of her clothes were off. And I had thought that we were going to this hotel to talk. And like I, again, was very promissuous and I was having a lot of sex with a lot of people. But never once even after us making out twice at this point, never once did it cross my mind that we would get to that point, especially so quickly. And so she's naked by the time she gets across the room and I was shocked, I was speechless. And I just was kind of like, oh, we're doing this. And she was like, what did you expect when I invited you to a hotel? And I was like, I thought we were coming to talk. I thought we were just gonna chat. And she was like, oh, we're adults now. And so we don't talk at all. We have sex. We are obviously having sex in the same bed. And then it comes time to go to sleep. And she leaves the bed that we're sharing to go sleep in the other queen bed that's in the room. - Did she say anything? - No, she just got up and got crawled out of bed and went to her bed and rolled over and went to sleep. - And so she goes to sleep. And the next morning comes and it's 5 a.m. And I hear her moving around. And I wake up and I'm like, what are you doing? And she's like, I gotta go. And I was like, you gotta go where? Are you gonna go get breakfast? Like where are you going? And it's Saturday, we're two hours away from home. I was expecting a little maybe morning cuddling, maybe a conversation. And she's like, maybe a conversation. God forbid. - Yeah, and she's very much like, I gotta go. And I was like, oh, is everything okay? And she's like, yeah, everything's fine. I just have to go. And that was very confusing for me because less than 12 hours ago, we were so intimately close to each other that we needed to have a conversation. And I'm very much a person who I need to talk about things because otherwise I get in my head too much. And then I got to get it out. - Yep. - Like, I start to go a little crazy. So she gets up and I didn't see her again until therapy the next week where her demeanor had become almost cold. She was very short with me. I was like, we need to talk about it. And we need to have contact outside of sex and this office. And she was like, well, you know, nobody can know. You can't tell anyone, nobody can know. I'd lose my license, I'd lose my practice. I would lose everything. And I was like, okay, but still, I need more than this once a week session thing and whatever happened in that hotel. And even in that session, again, it started the same. Let's make out for a couple minutes. Let's talk. Let's make out some more. Like I kind of started feeling like maybe it was just about sex. And that was good enough for me. I was still feeling like I was getting something out of doing therapy with her. I think looking back on it now, it wasn't. But I was so afraid of losing her that she could have done anything. And I would have continued to see her. (upbeat music) - You guys, Hannah, oh my gosh, I'm so excited. The Barbie studio is opening. I rented a little suite from my tattoo artisty as this building and I rented a suite and I blocked it off so that it's the Barbie studio so that my audience can come and spend time with me there. But needless to say, it needs to be furnished and I found so much stuff at Wayfair. Oh my God, like, we wait. I need to see like pictures and hear more about this, and I'm not surprised at Wayfair had everything for you. You have a very specific style you're looking for. - I do, they have, I mean, even if you're like me and you're a pink Barbie girl, they have all the pink things. They have neutrals. They have something for literally everyone. So good, you guys. You have to go and shop at Wayfair, I love them. - I'm looking around. I'm sitting in a comfy armchair that I wanted a very specific size for podcasting. I wanted it to be able to swivel, but not look like cheap swivel. And I found it on Wayfair. I have a full-length mirror over there from Wayfair. And also I just ordered last night, did not know that we were gonna be recording this today, just genuinely use the products. I really wanted a very specific type of alarm clock because I'm on my phone too much when it's in my bed. Anyway, I found the perfect one and I will report back when I get it in a couple days. - If you're ready to upgrade your home or your Barbie studio for way less, head to Wayfair.com right now to shop all things home and get your space ready for less. That's w-a-y-f-a-i-r.com. (upbeat music) - So this goes on for a couple of weeks where I'm seeing her and then we're meeting in the hotel, we're having sex, we're not talking. She's leaving right away. But in therapy, I wasn't allowed to talk about her. Like she had set that rule, like. - Oh my God. It wasn't allowed to talk about her or what we were doing. - Which, like, when we would talk about oh, we shouldn't be doing this. It was never about, oh, I'm your therapist. I shouldn't be having sex with my client. It was always about the fact that we were being gay. We were participating in gay activities. - That's the least of my concern being gay. - And what she ever, okay. - Blessed Redeemer. - Had she ever expressed any concern about your being gay? - I'm sorry, I'm getting so worked up. I just knocked lip gloss off my dick. - Had she ever expressed issues with being gay before it was with her? - No, no, and she had gay friends. It was such a weird, like, the first time it was ever brought up 'cause this becomes a argument that we had frequently. But the first time she said it, I thought she was joking 'cause I was like, that's so ridiculous that I know you don't have an issue with gay people. - That's absurd. - And then it becomes a thing where it's like, no other people can be gay. But I can't be gay. I am a good Christian woman who is having a lapse of judgment, essentially, is how she was. - You have a lot of lapse of judgment for sure, but not 'cause of that. - Yeah, what in one lapse? - Yeah, she's doing laps up and down the pool. Like you wouldn't believe with these. - Five percent. - Ethics. Wait, okay, that's how, so that must make you feel bad. - And I understood because that was something that I had always struggled with. I grew up in the Catholic church. I grew up in a town where 99% of the people were Catholic. And I grew up in a household where it was not talked about in a positive way. It was very much like. - Shawn didn't look down upon. - Yeah. And despite the fact that really all that was happening, was that we were having sex and then having therapy, I was working to convince myself that I was in love with her. This was what I wanted. This is what I needed. This was what had been missing my whole life. So we finally start, I'll loosely call it dating. Which again, it's really just us having sex and she starts coming over to my house. I'm divorced at this point. She starts coming over to my house. And I had a ring camera and she was like, take it down. Like. - Yeah, no, she sure did not. - No. - Covering her ass. - She's always covering her ass. - In the beginning when she was coming to my house, she wasn't coming to my house and like spending the night. She was coming to my house, we were having sex. She was leaving. There was even a time where my best friend was staying at my house and she was like, I need to see you. And I was like, yeah, my best friends here. And she's like, oh, let me know when you guys go to bed. And so I was like, hey, my friend went to bed. And Sarah's crawling through my window, 20 minutes later, because she couldn't use the front door because it would have alerted my dogs. So she's crawling through my bedroom window to come have sex with me. And then again, leaves out my bedroom window when we're done. - And how old are y'all at this point? - So I would have been turning 21 and she was 19 and a half years older than me. So she would have been turning 41. And we're probably six months into it at this point. We're spending a lot of time together. I start seeing other people that work in our clinic. There was a psychiatrist that worked in the clinic. And so I started seeing them. And she would be like, oh, can you come in and sign this paper or I'd get a call from the receptionist and be like, we need a copy of your insurance card or can you stop by and do this when you get a chance? So I was in an increased amount of time in her office. And We're six months into it. I started telling her like, I don't want to just be like your booty cold. I don't want you crawling through my window at 3 am. And I started feeling worse than I ever had in the sense of once again, I'm locked up in my house, not allowed to leave because she's over all of the time. And all we're doing is having sex. And I can't have friends because what do I tell them? I'm lying to everyone around me and I didn't even realize how bad it had gotten because I was so deep into it. It got to the point where I didn't even feel bad about lying to people. I didn't even feel bad when my friends would be like, why can't you come out with us ever? But anytime I would have plans, I would schedule plans with my friend, then she would call me and be like, I need you. I had a really rough day. The life of a therapist is really hard. I'm carrying so much heavy stuff and you're the only person that makes me feel better. And even when I would talk about my friends in our therapy sessions, she would be like, they're terrible friends. They could have done this. They could have done that wherever they when you needed them and was isolating me from everyone around me. It didn't matter who it was. They weren't good enough for me. And she could treat me better. So we again are loosely dating. And finally I told her, I need us to take a trip literally anywhere where we can exist out in the world for a couple days. I want to have fun with you. I want to do more than this. And so after a lot of convincing, she finally agrees to go to Vegas with me. And of course I have to get there a day before she does. I have to be checked into the hotel. I paid for both flights. It was my idea. I was the one who needed it so bad. I paid for everything on this trip. And she was allowing us to go out in public, but it was only at night. And it was only till these certain places. And there were so much rules that it was like we're not even actually doing anything. And Vegas is a big place. The chances of us running into someone who's going to recognize both of us and Vegas like slim chances not happening in the least most of the time in the hotel. The one night that we did go out was like 3 a.m. She wore the most ridiculous hat and sunglasses. I was just like, what are you doing? What is happening? What the fuck, dude? Yeah. And she's also continuing to tell me during all of this that we'll have a life together someday. It was always about her kid needed to be off on his own. And he was an early teenager at this point. Then she used him as a way to manipulate me because as someone who had shitty parents and parents didn't care about them. Good for her being a good mom. Yeah, he should be the number one priority in her life. And so I was very, I was very okay with as long as we can go on these trips every now and then. As long as we can see each other now and then I was okay with it. I think I convinced myself that it was okay because I truly believed what she was saying. Like, I'll be sad. I'll spend all my nights alone. She can leave at 5 a.m. because someday we're going to have more someday. We're going to be able to live authentically. And you're in love with that potential life. Yeah. And we were talking about building this future together. We were looking at Zillow listings. Oh, yeah. And there comes this point where I graduated with my master's degree. Congratulations. That's an amazing accomplishment. Thank you. Thank you. Yeah, throughout all of this. Yeah. And I had wanted to go to law school. That was the thing that I had always wanted is I wanted to go to law school. Well, I had gotten accepted. And it was halfway across the country. And when I told her about it, she was like, you can't go. And I was like, what do you mean I can't go? And she's like, I have an established practice here. I can't move. No point. Did I think she was going to move across the country to so that I could go to law school? It's almost like you're good knew that she was bullshit knew, but you follow the the comfort of being wanted. And that's, and that's how it was. It would be like, I have this opportunity to go to law school. And like, I have this opportunity that I'm not going to get again. And she's out here convincing me that once her son graduates, once whatever, then that opportunity will still be there. And so it obviously wasn't. But I was believing her when she was telling me, you know, just we need a little bit more time and things will get there. I truly genuinely was believing her. Despite the fact that she wasn't following through with anything that she was saying, I, I did believe her. I did believe that she loved me as much as I loved her. And during all of this, like, she's telling me like, oh, you're the love of my life. Like, I want to spend forever with you. All of these things where she's making me feel so good when we're having conversations. But then she knows what the fuck she's doing to she knows. And she also, like, again, like, she knew all of my childhood trauma. She knew all of my attachment issues. She went 100% knew what she was doing. So she brings up marriage. But I was still legally married. We'd been separated for quite a while over a year at that point, but I was still legally married. And she brings up nonchalant for sitting there reading a magazine and it's like, what if we go to Vegas and get married? And I was like, you know, we can't. So why are you even bringing it up? Like the conversation you with it. That like, we did, like, we're not even at we're six months into it. I'm not even legally divorced. I'm not getting married again. And she kept being like, I'm willing to give that to you. And it's like, oh, yeah, you can say you're willing to give it to me, but I can't legally get married. It's not even an option. So it's it's easy for her to say, oh, yeah, I will do it. Because she knows she's got the buffer of you being already married. I was like, when I get divorced, then we're going to get married. And she was like, yeah, yeah, yeah, when you get divorced, we'll get married. And I remember telling her, you know marriage records are public information. So if someone searches, they're going to see that. So how serious about this marriage are you? And she's again, very like, let's get married. Let's get married. Let's get married. And so finally, the day comes where I am legally divorced. And my first thing is, okay, so we can get married now. And I wasn't expecting, let's go to the courthouse right this second kind of thing. But like, hey, the app is on the table now. Yeah, we've been together for nine months at this point. We've known each other for gosh, seven years. We know what we need to know or at least I thought. And so I bring it up. And she's like, yeah, let's do it. Let's start planning. And I was like, okay, like, where do we start? Like, what are we? What's our budget? How are we going to do this? And time goes on. And she's like half ass answering my questions. And she's not putting any effort into planning anything. And I had started to become clear to me that she didn't want to do this. And it's so hard now because I'm like, how did I fall for this? How did I get so wrapped up in it? But when I was in it, she could have set me on fire. And I would have stayed. She could have done absolutely anything. Like, if she was like, do where do we need to bury the bodies? I would have done it. And I hate thinking about it that way now. But at the time, she convinced me that that was what love was. That was how two people and love felt about each other that it didn't always feel good. But if you are willing to do anything for someone, then you must love them, right? Yeah. So, about a month goes by. She finally agrees that we can get married, but that we cannot get married in the United States. Oh, for the love of the land. Where did you want to get married? We go to Canada. And the whole thing was just weird. I don't even know how to explain, like, we go. And obviously we can't actually get married in Canada. We don't even have a marriage license or anything. And her excuses, like, oh, you're the one who told me that marriage license is public record. And so if someone were to look it up, so we go to Canada. And I wasn't allowed to invite anybody. There was no pictures. There was no like, when I tell you, we rolled up to this church in Canada and sweatpants. So romantic. I don't know. Another question your drug use is still continuing throughout this. Is she involved in that at all? Or what does she think about it? She wasn't using with me, but she was encouraging me to continue to use. And I think, honestly, because if, if I wasn't using, there's no way that I would have been able to continue. What an enabler. So we have a symbolic ceremony thing. We exchange rings. We, you know, kiss the bride. We do all of that. And despite the fact that like, it was like, again, I'm pretty sure we were wearing sweatpants. Like, this was not a well organized thing in any way. It was enough to me that she was willing to do it. [BLANK_AUDIO] someone who is a Christian and she was a Christian and then we would talk about it. She'd always be like, it's not enough for you to just be married in front of God. Why is that not enough for you? Why do we need a piece of paper when God knows that we're married? And after that, she would then refer to me when she was talking to me. It would refer to me as her wife. And we did have arguments where I'd be like, if I'm supposed to be your wife, why can't I actually be your wife? Like, why can't we get married here? And anytime I'd bring it up, she'd be like, oh, it's not enough for you. It's never enough for you. Nothing I do is ever good enough and would make herself the victim. And I would fall for it where it's like, gosh, maybe I am asking too much. Here's this woman who's given up everything and that's what she would tell me. Like, I've given up everything for you at any point. I can lose everything and you'll just walk away from it with no hurt, no problems as where I'll lose everything. And I believed her because, I mean, technically, yeah, she would lose her job, which would make her lose her income, she would make her lose her home, you know, all of these things where it's like, I guess, technically, you don't want to do that for her. And she's making you feel like guilty, like it's your responsibility. And I do really, really care about her at this point. The longer that I was in it, the more that I had the convinced to myself that I love her, that I was in love with her. Wait, so you didn't go to, you decided not to go to that law school because of her? Yeah, yeah, because she told me that it would be selfish of me to go because she couldn't go with me. Oh, yeah. And so I just started a job and just started my career at this point. Like, we're like a year into it. And now we're married, if you will. And she's continuing to act like nothing's happening. Like, I'm continuing to see her for therapy. She's crawling in my window. Like, we're, what the, this is insane. Yeah, like we're married. We're celebrating our six-month wedding anniversary or whatever. And when I look back on it, now it's like, I was killing myself, trying to love her, trying to get her to love me, trying to feel like this was something that was real. It was so hard, too, because I'm seeing this one for therapy. She's billing my insurance. I'm paying the co-pays. She was so wrapped up in every intimate part of my life, where it's like, I'm going to therapy. How do I talk to this person who's causing these problems for me? In any time that I would want to talk about anything that was about our relationship, it wasn't allowed to be talked about in therapy. We could talk about it at home, we could talk about it anywhere else, but I wasn't allowed to bring it up in therapy. And, first of all, it felt like a waste of my time, because essentially, all we're doing is talking to us. You're just lying. And like, all we're doing is hooking up in her office. Why am I paying to have sex with you? And that's the point that it had gotten to, where it was just like, I would show up with have sex, I would leave. And I also brought up multiple times. I needed a different therapist. There was no longer any opportunity for me to be like, hey, here's all the shitty things that happened to me. There was no more therapeutic relationship there. And I loved the way that she made me feel when things were bad, but when things were bad, they were bad. But I was so desperate to make it work, because I couldn't imagine my life without her. At this point, she's been in my life for so long, she's the only constant. I've cut off all of my friends, I've cut off all of my family. It was me and her. We are very passionate about financial independence here at the dating detectives. If you are in a relationship knowing where your money is, knowing what money you have and protecting that, gives you so much freedom. Monarch money is an app that really helps you get on top of your finances. And I feel like it's just so much easier to know what's going on with my money since I started using monarch. Wouldn't you agree? Yeah. And I am someone who has ADHD in my mind is all over the place. My brain can't really focus or concentrate a lot sometimes. So I love the updates that I get from monarch. They tell me what's coming in, what's going out, what seems unusual, what's uncommon. Anytime my paycheck hits or whatever, they tell you all of it. And you can see, wait, how much did I spend on travel last summer? It really gives you a heads up on what's happening, what you've done where you're going. It gives you this AI weekly recap, which is actually super duper accurate. It flags spending spikes, it tells on you. It really does. It'll tell on you to yourself, but like a good friend, you know, that holds you accountable. Yeah. Hey girl, chill it on the shoes, okay? Write your own money story with monarch, use code dating at monarch.com to get your first year of monarch core half off at just $50. That's 50% off your first year at monarch.com with code dating. We're at the standstill of, there's no way for us to move forward. And so then June of 2020 comes and my mom has this aggressive form of lung cancer. I hadn't spoken to her in years at that point. I didn't honestly really have any desire to. And so I ultimately decided that I didn't want to see her. So about a month after my mom died, my best friend committed suicide. Oh my God. I'm so sorry. Oh my God. I'm so sorry. I'm so sorry. Oh my God. Oh my God. I can't even imagine how hard that was. Yeah. And I think with the problems that I had with my mom and my family was obviously grieving that. And then I was grieving her in a different way and then to lose someone who went so much to me. With everything that I had been through in the last couple of months and everything that was going on. I didn't really know what I wanted or where I was going or like really like where the world was even going. But I did know that I wanted to be a parent. I wanted a family, I wanted children in my ex-wife and I have foster kids. And so we had had kids in and out of our home. But I think being adopted and not having any biological family, it was really important to me that I at least tried to have a biological child. So Sarah and I started talking about it. I have a question that I wish I did not have to ask. You mean talking to her directly about your relationship and having kids or talking to her in therapy about your own desire to have kids as a client? It was a lot more in therapy sessions. Like my deep desire inside was that I always wanted to have at least one biological child. And so most of the time when we were talking about it, it was in therapy sessions. So quite an ulterior motive for your therapist to be navigating you through that. Yeah. And so she eventually tells me that she knows someone who is looking to be a sperm donor. And at first I was like, no, this is weird, there's places that I can go to get sperm that are not just some guy, you know. And she continues to be like, oh, I know him, I know him really well, we've been friends for a long time. And then like, I think I was so, one, I think I was so excited about the idea that she was so excited about it. Like she was willing to seek out this person who could help us. It felt like a big step forward in our relationship in the sense of cure something that I want. I've given up so many things for her. And so I think in the like time that it was happening, I was just so excited that she was willing to do it. And so we continue to talk about it for, I would say probably like a month and a half. And I had to talk to my doctor and I was like, I'm ready to do this. And so she comes home one day and is like, I'm going to go to his house. I'm going to collect this sperm. I'm going to bring it back to you, we're going to, um, okay, in Turkey Baster. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. So, and also, sorry, there's so many questions. I don't want to stop you, but like, did she talk about the plan in terms of your publicity and your relationship? Like if you guys start raising a child together, people are going to know you together. Yeah. No, it was very much like, this is going to be your child and I will be here. I will help support you. But this is your client. And she's not mom. No. And she made it very clear that in the future, when this child would grow up, that it would be more like, she was step mom and she would act as if we had met after the baby had been conceived. Okay. So, yeah, she goes to his house, collects it, brings it back to about five weeks later to pregnancy tests. I came up negative, but I was like, things like I definitely feel weird, something is going on. So I go see my OB and I was pregnant. What? And I, at the time, was elated. I could not have been happier. I was expecting this to be something that was going to take forever. I thought I was going to have to do this 50 different times. So when I found out that I was pregnant, I was just so caught up in the excitement that I think I didn't even realize what it meant prior to getting pregnant. was like, is this even possible? Am I going to be able to do it? And then when I was actually pregnant, it was like, okay, this is real. And in my mind, I was so excited that we were where we were, and that it was such a big step in our relationship. Maybe publicly she wasn't supporting me in any way, but privately she was. There was a lot of making sure that I was eating and making sure that I was taking care of myself. And she was very concerned with the fact that I had then gotten clean. And there was just a lot of her supporting me privately, but then publicly not being willing to do anything. So I was about three months pregnant. And we have this massive fight. We were at her office. I had had a session with her. She goes to the receptionist and tells this joke. And the receptionist laughs, I laugh. And immediately when I laughed, she stopped laughing and was glaring at me. And I was like, oh, okay, like I'm not supposed to laugh. And so I leave. And she gets home that night. And it's immediately just screaming at me. She's like, you were trying to expose us. It was inappropriate that you were laughing at this joke. It made it seem like. Oh my god. And we're screaming at each other. And it went on for hours. There was everything. I was bringing out how she had made all of these promises that she wasn't actually able to commit to. It felt like every rhythm and I had towards her was coming out in this like screaming match. And so finally we're done yelling at each other. And it wasn't even so much that we were done as much as I was like, get the fuck out of my house. I don't want to do this anymore. Like a couple hours later, I woke up and had started miscarrying. Oh, I'm so sorry. Yeah. And like, I think I knew the second I woke up. I knew that something bad was happening. And so I started calling her and she just wasn't answering. And I finally texted her and I was like something bad is happening. Please call me. And she finally calls me and she's like, I don't know what you want me to do. And I was like, I am bleeding out on the bathroom floor. I can't drive. I can't move. I need help. And she was going to support the system at that time. Yeah. And so I was begging her to come home and take me to the hospital. Like, you don't even have to stay at the hospital. But can you just come see me, take me to the hospital and then you can leave. And again, she was like, what if someone sees us like, oh my god. And in that moment, I was like, you have got to be fucking kidding me. I'm bleeding out on the floor. And I think for a second, I was like, maybe she doesn't believe me. Maybe she thinks I'm being dramatic. We have been fighting. And so maybe she thinks I'm trying to get her to come home. Yeah. And so I finally FaceTime her. And I'm showing her as I'm like screaming. And she's standing outside of the bar like colon ambulance. Oh my god. And I just don't know the point where like I wasn't even mad anymore. Like I was desperate. Like I was sad. I was so like, please just do this one thing for me. I don't want to do this alone. I don't want to do it without you. And I think that was the first time where it was like, here's all of these other things that she's done that have obviously hurt me. Here's these things where she didn't show up when I wish she would have. This was a moment where I needed her to step outside of herself a little bit and show up for me. And she couldn't do it. And her excuse was 20 years ago was a social worker in this hospital. Like, what if somebody? Oh, Jesus Christ. Get out of here. And as much as it was hard for me, she was able to convince me that this is how it needed to be in order for us to be safe. In order for us to be together. Her in order for her to be safe. Yeah. You were just so failed by her because she you're 21 years old, but you met as a minor. And she's the adult in the room and she's in the position of power. And she is the what like because what she should say is, Oh, I shouldn't be with this person then. If I don't feel like I can take them to the hospital. Right. Right. I think that was kind of the first time where the thought had gone through my mind, where I was like, if she truly loved me, she would be here. It wouldn't matter if someone saw us. Yes. But I was still so wrapped up in it. And so we're like probably a year and a half into being married at this point. And well, pretend married. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. For 10 married. Yeah. Yeah. We were constantly fighting just the pure existence of having to see her. I was miserable. I didn't know how to separate her from being my therapist and her being my girlfriend and her playing this weird motherly role. And sometimes she would, you know, refer to herself as my wife. And it was a lot of situations in which I didn't know who she actually was. And I was using more and more into my life in general was falling apart again. At this point, I really had no friends. And so I didn't feel like I had anyone that I could talk to. And when I would try to talk to her about it, it would turn into a fight. And so I had told her several times that I just didn't want to do it anymore. I couldn't take the fighting. I was just so physically exhausted and emotionally exhausted. And anytime that I would tell her, I don't want to do this anymore is very much like, what are you going to do without me? You don't know how to live without me. And I'm telling you, she could have set me on fire. And I would have gone back because she had convinced me that I couldn't possibly survive without her, despite the fact that I was begging her for help. I was begging her for the opportunity to see a different therapist. I was trying to negotiate with her in the sense of, I promise I won't say this list of things that I've written out if you allow me to go see a different therapist. And every time I was like, I don't really trust that you're not going to tell anyone. And so I would continue to see her for therapy and not see anyone. I also, I mean, this is like, I don't know, this might be way off. But the fact that she's putting so much effort into keeping this relationship with you, even though it's what it is, I can imagine after everything you've been through, like that's maybe subconsciously still feel good. Like she's still fighting for you in this twisted way. 100%. And I think, I think that's how she was able to convince me time and time again to come back and to stay. And that I needed her because she was the only person. I was so isolated that it was like, I don't even know who I could tell. I don't even know where I could go. Because she was telling me a lot of like, oh, even if you tried to tell someone who's going to believe you, I have a huge manipulation tactic, especially like when you're like, who's gonna, they say that to kids, like, that's how people believe. Well, who was the only person that believed you about your dad? Sarah. Yep. And, and that's what made it so hard. It's like, you were the person who believed me when no one else did. When I was at that lowest point and didn't know who did turn to, that was her role. And so, who do I tell? What do I do? And there was really a big difference in the person that she was when she was in our home or when we were on trips. Like, we were still continuing to go on several trips. I would say at least once a month, sometimes two or three times a month, where we would take the weekend and go to Vegas or go to, you know, wherever. And in the room, when we were having sex and room service and all these other things, it's like, this is my best friend, this is my partner, this is the person that I want to spend the rest of my life with. I'm so lucky to be here. And then the second we leave the hotel room, it's like, you go stand over there and I'll go stand over here. And I don't even know how to explain the level in which I knew that I deserved better. But when I would bring up how I deserved better, she would convince me that I was lucky to have what she was giving to me. And so, I was continuing to see her for therapy, and I was continuing to process through a lot of the things that happened to me as a child and just kind of like talking a lot about like my pandemic issues and bringing up how afraid I was of her abandoning me. And in session, she would do a great job of like supporting me and making me feel like I was heard and just like making me feel good about this situation. But then it's like we'd be at home fighting about something. And she would be like, well, it's not my fault that your parents abandoned you. And here's these things that you only know because you're my therapist that you're then yelling at me and my kitchen at 2am. And how do I argue with that? What she's telling me is the truth. And I don't even know how to explain the levels in which it made me just feel shitty because it's like, I trust you. How can you be so kind and so embarrassed? pathetic in session. And then in my house, you're yelling at me about how it's my fault, my parents abandoned me. So by the end of 2022, we had been in it for like two and a half years. I was the worst part of my addiction. I had gotten to the point where I think I knew that there was no way it was working, but like I didn't know how to get out of it. And my co-workers were becoming more of my friends. I started spending more time with them. And my friend was like, "Will you go to this concert with me?" And it was a concert that I had been wanting to go to for years. It was an artist I really loved. And when I was at that concert, he was talking about how he got sober and like, his life got so much better after he got sober. And I decided that I wanted to at least give it a try. I wanted to put some serious work into getting sober. I wanted to detox. I wanted the opportunity to really just try. And so I started looking into treatment options and I had brought it up to Sarah and she was like, "Oh, I know the perfect place." Of course she did. And at the time, I didn't want to change my mind. So I was like, "If you can find somewhere that can get me in relatively quickly, that's what I want." And so I think I told her on the Tuesday that I was committing to going and by Thursday, they had the bed and they were ready. And if I would be willing to sign releases so that she could talk to them. And I think I believed her so much in the sense of like, she wants to help me, like she wants this for me. So she can tell them whatever she wants. And so I signed all of these release things, which at the time I didn't understand meant that she could then be in regular contact with the therapist and the people that I was seeing. And anytime I would have a therapy session, it was done with my therapist. She was privy to it. And not only was she privy to it, she was there. So it was done with like, "Oh my God, she's the problem." Yeah. And if she would come into these sessions and I would be like, "Oh, this is how something's affecting me." And she would be like, "No, I don't think that's true. This is what I think is going on." So my therapist, who was involved, was so like, checked out of whatever. He was not very good at his job. And so there was a lot of times I wanted, I felt like he wasn't listening to me. Read the room fellow. And I think too, I give a little bit more grace to him because they have a lot of clients and there was like a COVID outbreak while I was there. So there was a lot like going on. And so I think I have a little bit more grace for him in that situation. But at the same time, it just didn't matter what this other person is saying. If this is what I'm telling you, I'm the client. If this is what I'm telling you, and towards the end of my stay, I had really started advocating for the fact that I thought I needed longer help. They were strictly a 28-day program. And while I was there, I just wasn't getting a lot of, like I said, there was a COVID outbreak. Just a lot going on. And I didn't feel like I was getting the help that I really needed as much as I was just getting the opportunity to detox. And so I really wanted to go somewhere where I could do the intensive therapy and really get to the core reasoning behind why I had been doing drugs for the last decade. And so I brought that up to my therapist that was my therapist and treatment. And he was like, oh, I talked to your outpatient therapist Sarah. And it was like, I think you'll be able to handle just outpatient therapy with her because at the end of the day, like I needed his recommendation for my insurance to cover for me to go to a longer facility. Oh, my God. And you can't tell him the truth. Oh, my chimney cranky. Oh, my God. This is awful. And I think that's what was making it so hard to is where I knew I couldn't tell him that I was having an affair with this woman. I also knew that like, how am I supposed to get better when the one thing that drives me to a use every day is the one thing I can't talk about. And the one thing they keep sending you back to. She didn't tell me at the time, but because I was receiving therapy services and was impatient, I, my insurance was not covering like she was going she would come visit me for just like a visit. And my insurance was not covering why why? Because I was in inpatient and so they don't cover out patient. Yeah. So they were covering the inpatient therapy services. So they don't cover out patient services. And how are you? Oh, my God. And she could like, yes, she's coming as your therapist. But in your mind, she's your wife, girlfriend. Yeah. Yeah. Why would you expect her to charge? Oh, my God. And I have this $3,000 bill from strictly the 28 days that I was in treatment. And at first, I thought it was kind of a joke. And I was like, what is this about? And she was like, well, I technically have to charge you or it's going to look weird. Like I can't just not charge you because everyone knew that I was going to see you. And so I have to charge you. I think that was when I had just gotten out of treatment. I was already frustrated with her. And I think when I was in treatment, I started realizing it was the drugs that were making me feel like this was okay. It was so numb because of the drugs that I was using that it was like, this is the best I deserve. This is as good as it gets. And I think I wanted to believe that we could make it work, but I had already realized that we could. But yeah, continuing to use you kind of get to push that realization down more numb yourself to it. Is that kind of what you're saying? So I am finally sober. And I think the biggest shift that happened was the was our relationship because now it's like, I need you to give anything. I need you to spend the night at my house and not sneak out my window. To treat me like I am your partner. And this was her son senior year. So like we do a die. Yeah, like we're eight months away from this kid graduating. And it frequently became a conversation where I would be like, hey, he's graduating. Let's start looking at what we need to do. Like where are we going to live? What are we doing? Being like, oh, after his last track me or his last wrestling. Again, I just kept believing her because at some point she's going to run out of things that she can use as an excuse. So at some point, she's going to have to either move or break up or get off the pot. Yeah. And I had started making more friends in the recovery community and the friends that I was making, they knew something was off. Just sent the weird secretive behavior that I would have that I was very much acting like I was still using because she was like the secret drug that I was using. Yeah, you were like, I was being secretive. I was being weird. I was meeting up with random people in the middle of the night. And more of that people would ask me about it. The more and more of that, I would just want to scream what was happening. I had gotten to the point where it's like, now I'm sober. I was fucking miserable. It made it easier to see things, right? Like, did you gradually start seeing things more clearly? Yeah, for sure. I mean, I would say by the time I was getting out of treatment, I was able to know that this wasn't going to last. I was also experiencing a lot of feelings for the first time. I was angry and I was sad. And life was very actively working a recovery program. I was putting a lot of effort into staying sober, sobriety had kind of become the forefront of my life. And the reason why I was there for me is it was like, she had been telling me, oh, I liked you better when you were using like, oh, blessed it. And there were a couple of times even where she would be like, oh, just a reminder, you can get high. It's not the end of the world. If like, I'm sorry, what? Sometimes where I was going through harder things and it's like, I'm really fucking depressed and I don't want to be here. And it's like, well, drugs make you feel better. If that's what's keeping you alive, then feel free to go use them. And so, as I'm now almost six months sober at that point, and I'm seeing these things in front of my face. The mask is 100% starting to slip for her. Her son's graduating in a few months. Every time I bring it up, she's like, has a meltdown and it turns into this massive blowup. I think I had checked out a long time before things actually ended. I was so, I was still so afraid of losing her. And that had been my best fear for a decade. My formative years were formed by this woman. Finally, one day, I, it was. on vacation with a friend of mine and it was the first vacation I had been on in years that wasn't revolving around her. I really kind of talking and my friend was also a therapist and I was telling her that I think it had kind of run its course and I was like I need help telling her I don't want to see her as a therapist anymore like I don't I wasn't telling my friend that we had a personal relationship but I was like I need help navigating this situation and my friend was very much like oh that's easy just tell them you don't want to see them wish them luck they're gonna send back like good luck to you sounds great and I was like no I don't think you're understanding how hard this is and I was then telling her like you know I've known her for a decade we've been through a lot together and I started implying that there was more going on and she was like okay like just tell her you don't want to see her anymore and like it's fine like okay all right and I didn't know how to get it through to her without actually telling her what was going on so I was just kind of like okay I'm gonna send Sarah a text message and I'm just gonna be like I need a therapist I need someone I don't even have to tell them what's happening between us like I really don't care but I need someone to talk to that's not you no response and then the next morning I sent her an email and I was like hey can you call me and she she does and she was like I can never see you again if you're firing me it's over you're not my clan anymore I'm going to cancel your appointments and this phone call lasts less than 30 seconds she's called her whole demeanor you know she was this bubbly warm personality like I feel like she knew her her goose was cooked she was like I'm done like and that's pretty for it yeah she trying to punish you again and like realistically there's no way that I could have gotten another therapist and not eventually told them and I think she knew that like as I as I was getting friends and like my coworkers were becoming my friends and I'm now hanging out with my college friends again and I think she just knew that like her time was up yeah if you're doing well you're not susceptible to her abuse anymore yeah and I had also started getting my mental health licensing and so I was done with school and I was moving forward in that sense and so at this time I have a good job I'm starting to better I think understand the healthy relationships between clients and therapists and providers and like those kinds of things so yeah she terminates me as a client cancels all my appointments I immediately am getting notifications that the appointments have been canceled I was seeing another provider that worked in the same office as her and I showed up to that appointment which was a couple hours later oh no yeah and she was immediately like I can't see you anymore you're not welcome here anymore she's probably telling some kind of lie and that's her I was immediately like because when I walked in the receptionist was weird and was like what are you doing here and so I go out to the front and I was like I guess just cancel all my appointments and the receptionist was like oh I already did you're no longer welcome to be here I wonder what she said to them I'm so curious and I wasn't telling anyone anything people in my life knew that obviously things had ended between us but I was not telling my friends hey I was sleeping with this woman I was very much protecting her privacy I was protecting her and so a couple weeks after I sent her this email and I was like hey I just need to know where things stand are we done on a personal level and she sends me a link to schedule an appointment through the therapy practice no word responds just sends me this link to schedule this 30 minute consultation thing with her therapy practice and I was like okay fine I'll do it I'll go whatever so I finally schedule the day comes and we have this minor snowstorm there's nothing major and she emails me and is like hey I'm not gonna be in the office today because the major snowstorm I can't get out of my driveway like as if we didn't live two miles apart you have the same weather I have but okay and so she was like rather than doing it in person can we do it via telehealth and so we agreed to do it over telehealth in the whole time she was being so fucking weird she was cold I would be like what the fuck is happening what happened how did we get here and she was like I don't know how we got here sometimes things just happened and sometimes relationships just come to an end as if we hadn't shared such personal life together and was very much sticking to this professional as if she had followed every boundary and I was expecting an apology I was expecting something like we're done like a clear ending or something even like anger but she was just like no it's you know it's over all good things come to an end and in my mind this was the last time we were ever going to speak to each other and I felt like she owed me the truth I felt like I deserved anything other than what she was giving me it was so different from any part of her that I'd ever seen before like the professionalism the weird boundaries the like even the way that she was sitting like she was sitting up in her chair super proper and kept referring to me by my full name and there was no like humanity yeah and it's like I was inside of you two weeks ago this is how we're gonna act now and I I again had assumed this was the last time we were ever going to talk and it destroyed me I was listening to this woman act like I had met nothing to her and so I finally was like okay this conversation isn't going anywhere I don't know why you're being weird but when you're ready to talk for real let's talk and she was like oh well no we can't ever speak again part of terminating the therapeutic relationship means that I can't talk to you and you can't talk to me and she was very following my advice yeah and she kept being like oh the therapeutic relationship the therapeutic boundary is the and it's like again what about when I was feeding you out two weeks ago what are we doing here no boundaries there crazy and I had never been so utterly confused with how someone could be such different people like I didn't even feel like she was the same person in that meeting that she had been the last 10 years that I had known her she was so cold and so calculated and so big emotionless that it was like who the fuck are you and I was getting more and more desperate because I was like what is this mean you really never want to talk to me again and I was almost panicking in the sense of I didn't think we would get here when we were talking about I need a new therapist it did not cross my mind when I sent that text message that this is where we would be that she would be so easily able to just cut me off and act like I had never existed and I didn't know how to wrap my head around that I didn't know what to do so that was the last time that I had figured that we were going to have a conversation just was like the way that she was acting and just the way that she had acted since I had sent her that text message and so I think I feel for your lack of closure but I'm also like god I hope this is the last conversation you have yeah so yeah remember the father that oh boy yeah the father that she had helped me escape from and had spent you know years of my life helping me so after her and I break up I am scrolling on face the quen day we're done we're done that's it no what is it and there's a picture of the two of them hanging out together they had gone and had lunch together but someone some one removed the sharp objects from my home I am so oh my god yeah so during this lunch they decided that they wanted to get off his space together what yeah so they're like now friends they're working together they're singing each other every day how did that happen I don't really know the whole story of how it happened I know that at the time my father was looking for new like his lease was up so he was looking for new space and supposedly they were expanding and I don't really know how they got there like here was this person who had defended me and had testified and had made sure that I was going to be safe and had listened to me for a decade talk about how much of a monster this man was to me and now they're getting dinner and sharing office space what do I do with that? Who do I tell? What can I do about it? Nothing. And they posted it on Facebook so that you would see. Oh yeah, for sure. And that was the hardest part of really all of it was seeing those two together because it made it feel like it was never real. Yeah. It wasn't until then that I started questioning like everything. Was she only nice to me because she was secretly talking to him and secretly wanted to tell him what was going on. Like how long had that? I don't know. Like I really don't know. I think it's hard for me because it's like do I think at the beginning of this she went into it aligned with my abuser to ruin my life? No. But the only reason that they would be spending time together was to hurt me. The only person who was affected by that was me. Even to this day so much of it doesn't feel real because it's like why? Why? Like what was she getting out of it? What was he getting out of it? So yeah, I then started seeing a new therapist and going into and seeing a new therapist, I had decided that I wasn't going to talk about what had happened with Sarah. I was going to focus on essentially getting the therapy that I hadn't been able to get for the last five years. So I'm seeing this new therapist and I'm telling her like oh I had a falling out with my therapist and I was definitely being weird in the sense of like she would be like oh tell me more and I would be like big can't. And finally one day I just supported it out and I was like Sarah and I were sleeping together. What happened? Oh she was so shocked. I didn't start out with being like oh we were having sex every week in her office. It just was like oh she kissed me one time and then it was like well actually she kissed me with lots of times and actually we got married kind of. Yeah and like I was trying to feel out the sense of I think there's this loyalty amongst clinicians and providers that's like oh I wouldn't do that so there's no way someone else could do that or like when so much of getting your degree and getting licensing is wrapped up in the ethical relationship. Why would someone do that? Why would you risk your entire career for a few fun nights? And so as the month's gone I finally started telling her here's what was happening. Here's the whole unedited version and she had told me she needed to report it to the board and I I kind of was like I need to tell Sarah like I need to tell Sarah that this is going to be reported and so my new therapist did give me like why did you feel like you needed to tell her? I think because despite the fact that I had told my therapist I had not prepared to tell her like I I think I started almost feeling like I was in a crisis because she's going to know that it was me who unless she's having sex with lots of people like she's going to know it to me and I think just in the trauma that I was again still experiencing and the way that I was feeling about it I somehow felt like this obligation to tell her that I was reporting her and I think there was a part of me that wanted her to try to talk me out of it to try to like I don't I don't even know. I wanted her to admit to me one that it had happened into that she had actually loved me and this wasn't just some mistake that she had made. You called her on. I met with her I invited her over to my house and I remember telling her hey I told my therapist I'm sorry I was very apologetic it was very like I can't believe I fucked up like this and she was so angry and she was like I can't believe you would make this mistake you were always worthless and she was just like degrading me and I was like okay it's obvious that I made the right choice in telling my therapist. I think the thing that I kept telling myself was like I would never treat her like that no matter what happened I would never do that to her I would never call her worthless I would never degrade her I would never treat her the way that she was treating me and I think that's what really made me realize that she didn't ever love me and as hard as it is to admit I think a lot of it was just about the sex and the way that she was able to control me and the way that she was able to manipulate me and when I was talking to my new therapist about that and just all of the things that she would say where it's like here's how she should have reacted here's what she should have said and then to hear someone who I know have you know a healthy therapeutic relationship with be like she was grooming you here's 15 examples of that she was manipulating you here's 30 examples of that and so for the first time have someone pointing out all of these things that she was doing that were manipulative and we're grooming and we're her abusing her power and the more and more that we talked about it and the more and more that I shared it was easier for me to see this is what it is this was abuse this was a relationship that should have never happened and the excuse like oh how do we met any other way we were both consenting adults you know all of these excuses that Sarah would use were just like falling apart and I was able to see it for what it was so I don't hear from her for a while and then I'm talking to my therapist I finally get my therapy license I had a conversation with one of my co-workers and I was telling them I had a therapist that I had had a relationship with them it was super messy but it's okay and my co-worker was like so if one of your clients wanted to date you what would you do and I immediately was like absolutely not gross and then my response to that and then you know when I was thinking about it later it was so easy for me to respond that and it is true like I would absolutely never have a personal relationship with a client but it was such an obvious reaction it was such a clear boundary of how much she had crossed like yeah I finally realized she didn't have to cross that boundary if you want to date one of your clients like you don't sorry it sucks to be yeah there's someone else out there for you and that made me understand how serious things were so I then decided that I was going to report her to the board and my therapist had reported her and they were like there's nothing we can do without a complaint from the victim themselves and so I decided to report her and literally nothing happened like I was calling the contact that they had given me I filled out their paper I provided photographic evidence I was providing proof that we that I was at the very least like I obviously couldn't show like there was no sex tapes or anything so I couldn't do it with time like females yeah yeah like I was I was sending them everything that I had and essentially they were like it's unethical but it's not illegal you were too consenting adults unfortunately there's nothing that we can do then why take reports for stuff like that and that's what I I think it was really hard for me is if it's not illegal if it's only unethical then why is why are the ethics even there if if it doesn't actually like if you don't have to show me evidence oh just kidding we don't do anything about that like what's the point and even just in other people that I've talked to and other stories that I've heard that is the number one response is oh it's not illegal it's just unethical like we can assign ethics classes like whatever oh my god and I was not expecting that at all and so it was really hard for me to wrap my head around everything that I had been through and the fact that they they weren't telling me that they didn't think it happened but that there was just nothing they could do about it essentially they were like you can sue her but like we can't do anything and so I kind of let it go until one day I again scrolling on Facebook and I'm part of this therapist group for the area and there's this post where she is advertising her services and it's like my ideal client is a teenage girl between the age of 15 and 15 and that immediately set me off my god yeah she's fishing for victims yeah 100% and I was like what the fuck and I didn't even know how to because like do I just start telling people that like I had a sexual relationship with her I didn't even know what to do as far as one she should not be seeing children she shouldn't be seeing any clients but especially not teenage girls and I didn't know what to do what do you do in that situation if the board isn't listening to you and she doesn't have a supervisor who do you go to so I finally decided that line needed to file a lawsuit because I figured at the very least I could bankrupt her and maybe then her business would go out of business like or even this credit her even a little bit yeah and get the word out it wasn't at all about revenge it really was one of the hardest things that I've ever had to do because this is somebody that I still unfortunately care about. And I knew she had a child and I knew this was going to affect her life with her family and her future career and like all of those things, but it was like. You could save somebody. There's victims that she's reaching for. And so I filed the lawsuit and it lasts for over a year. She's initially tries to deny that I was ever her client, that we ever had a relationship, that she there's one point where she's trying to be like, "I don't even know who she is." And I was like, "Okay, well, at the very least I can prove that she's the 5,000 appointments that we've had." And then she tries to spin it, but I made it all up. I'm delusional. I have no idea what I'm talking about. She was completely professional. She never crossed any boundaries and is continuing to promote her practice and promote her business services and promote herself to teenage girls. We eventually set a lot of court. I did not get any money. My one stipulation was that she would surrender her license and that she would stop promoting her services. You didn't want any money. You just wanted her to surrender her license? Yeah, I mean, I'm not gonna pretend like I didn't want money in the beginning. No, of course, but I mean, like, at the end of it, I was so tired and I was so exhausted that the only thing I asked for was for her to surrender her license. I also, by that point, was just pretty fed up with everything. And very much was like, if you don't agree to this, just a reminder that you were billing my insurance while we were just having sex. So insurance fraud at the very least. A hundred percent. So yeah, she apparently was trying to rebrand her self as a life coach. I don't know. She's so consultant. Yeah, I don't know where any of that, like, I don't know where any of that stands now, but that was the big part and why I decided to start talking about it and like telling people is because we live in a world where anybody can get a certification online. I mean, AI exists. It's so hard to find providers and it's so hard to know how you can trust them. Like, who's there to verify that any of these credentials are real? Who's there to verify? And especially in the world that we live in, there's so many therapists are independent contractors. And so it's like, if I make this website that says, oh, I have a master's degree, I have the appropriate licensing. And it looks good. Then you can schedule clients. Like clients are going to come to you. And like, they're not going to know what to ask. They don't know what they don't know. Right. So I think it was really hard for me to continue to see advertisements where she's advertising that she's a life coach. And she's, you know, doing all of these things. And she has all of these certifications. And again, it wasn't anything about even being upset with her as much as it was like, nobody else should ever have to go through this. If she did it once, she's going to do it again. Yeah. She's looking for more victims. Yeah. And who are about themselves to teenage girls specifically? And it's so hard for, especially like, I'm not dumb. Like, I, I am educated in the field specifically. I have a master's degree. I might have had a shitty childhood, but I was educated. Wow. And if someone were to told me that this was going to happen to me, I went to believe them. I was smarter than this. Yep. But it's not about being smart. So often, like, I hear people that are like, oh, why do you stay so long? Why did you? Yep. Like, why didn't you just leave? And it's like, you can tell you've been there until you've been in it. It's such an impossible decision. It's such an impossible situation to be in. And so, I, yeah, continued to stay sober. Life is a little bit better today. I am practicing. Good for you. I work with teenage boys, specifically that are involved in the criminal justice system. And my biggest single I bring into sessions is one appropriate boundaries. During some of their stories and relating it to even some of my stories. Nobody deserves to be judged for the decisions that they made as a child. And so, having the opportunity to just play a bigger part in the lives of children who otherwise feel misunderstood really is what brings me joy in life. Oh my god, this is, oh, that's a lot. Quite a story, but definitely your clients are so lucky. I just appreciate your willingness to share all of like, you just, there's, oh, man, I watch. There's going to be someone who says, oh, my gosh, the same thing happened to me. And you're like, what? This is so impossible. How is that possible? There's, it's, you're no one's ever alone in their situation. Just know you're not alone. Yeah. And even just like, you know, the little parts that I have shared on like social media and stuff. And even just like reading through some of the comments, people will be like, oh, you know, this exact thing didn't happen to me, but this similar thing. And one, I'm so sorry to anyone who's been in that kind of situation. But two, don't give up on on therapy. Don't give up on whatever it takes to better yourself to heal through it. You can do it. It might take a really long time. It might take the rest of your life. But give yourself the opportunity to try, to try to heal, to try to feel better, to try to trust again. Absolutely. Man, that's crazy. Thank you so much again, Emily. Thank you. Oh my gosh. Okay. How many of y'all were pissed off? Raise your hands. I was so mad. Like, why the end game for 10 years. And what is your end game? I need people to comment their WTF moments. If you're new here. The whole thing. But yeah, the whole thing for me was the whole thing. Yeah. But put like spoiler, if you've got a spoiler in there. But I feel like there's just so many moments of her Tara raising the bar of unethical, abusive manipulation. It's just so sad, so so sad. Can we start by talking about transference? We've been talking a lot. I don't even know where to start. So yeah, transference that let's talk about that. Okay. So we've been doing a little research. And also she mentioned transference at 1.2. So yeah, transference is a common psychological phenomenon where a person unconsciously redirects feelings from the work that's going on in therapy to their therapist. They're like working through it in therapy. And because of the clinical work you're doing, you attach it to your therapist. So I think the best example is her having abandonment issues with her mother, not having like a real mom that loved her. And so creating that motherly dynamic with her therapist. And there, this is very common. And there are ways that therapists are supposed to respond. Sarah used it to manipulate and groom. And the fact that she was so deeply involved in this type of dynamic with her therapist for Emily, it just meant that she can't see the relationship clearly. Right. And you got to remember this started when she was she was young. So she, she's a young girl. She doesn't have that experience yet. Maybe her femtuition isn't fully formed, whatever the case is when she's that age, when you're a youth, and you find someone who's a mother figure when you don't have that, or someone that you feel like you can trust finally, you hold on to that. Especially in a relationship with a therapist like that is such a specific dynamic. That's why we want to bring it up because it's like it's an element of power that she had that is unique because of the access she had as her therapist. Imagine being in a relationship with someone where everything vulnerable about them, you know and have access to. And they are trusting you to provide the tools and resources on how to fix it. But like you are the problem. Like imagine them being the actual problem. That's such an abuse of power that is so unethical. But did you know that it's illegal in only half the states to have sex with a patient. It's only illegal in half the states. The rest it's just, well, this is not nice. Like don't do this. But you know, it should be illegal in more places. We looked into the specific state where she is. Some states it is illegal, but some states you are just supposed to lose your license. But because that's not illegal, there's no police enforcing that. There's no law enforcement enforcing that. It's just a board of your therapist peers. So apparently since that has been put in place, only 10 licenses have been taken away in that specific state for this. So what happened? Only 10 common. Yeah, you're frequently not taken seriously. And this whole thing about I feel like going back to the thing about her not being believed and that that was her experience as a as a youth was that nobody believed her or whatever. So that's one thing that could be really upsetting for someone in her position. But it's almost like the kids saying, well, the teacher did this and you're like, well, the teacher wouldn't do that. The teachers have grown as an adult. We respect them. And you're just a student or in this case, the patient. But for 10 years, this woman manipulated and abused this person who only trusted she posted her and no one else. put her in that position of isolation. - She was her only, yes. I was gonna say isolation. She was her only protector. And anytime there was anything that came up that could threaten that, she knew exactly what to say to keep her there. I mean, I was thinking, I was watching Love Island and very different, obviously. You can learn a lot about relationships when that show and I was thinking about the shit show, but man, it's a dictating. - There was one couple. One couple was like trying to explain something about their relationship to the other people and they're like not quite getting it. And they then go back and are kind of like, well, we understand what we have. It's us against the world, they don't have to understand. And I was like, it's such a clear, lighter example of that isolation technique of being like, oh, people don't understand you, people don't leave you, people don't trust you, well, I do. So it's just, you don't need them. - Yeah, we are very unique what we have. And just like, can you imagine like being, she was being strong along like, and we also talked about, imagine that that was a dude, how different would it be if the therapist was a man? I'm curious to know. And like, I'm curious to know how it would be taken, would it be taken more seriously? Would it be, would she be believed more? I'm just really curious about that. - I last night was like falling asleep thinking about what we talked about at the end, where people were invalidating the rate because it was between two women. And that kind of shook me to my core, because it's so like the, it's like homophobic and obviously disregarding of a survivor's experience tied into one. And it is just so many layers of dehumanization. And I don't know why I hadn't really thought about that. - I guess I just haven't heard of a case where people were like, well, there wasn't a penis involved. So how can it be rape? And it just like, yeah, I'm kind of, I don't know. - You know men, but I would also like to point out that there are cases that I have studied where men were charged with rape for using tools other than their penis to penetrate a woman. And were charged with rape for that. So like, and imagine like women's prison, women's prisons and they use broomsticks. Like this is crazy stuff. Like how is that not? And so just kind of saying that that's not rape is, that's just ignorant. I don't know if it's, I don't know if it's homophobic. I don't know what it is, but it is. - No it is because it's invalidating sex between two women. Like it is. It's saying that that's not sex, which is like, that I just as sitting there hearing that as her, I just can't imagine the emotional toll and the fact that she is where she is now is so unbelievably, I can't believe, I imagine going through all that, but then overcoming it and now you're on this, because of her experiences now she's gonna help a lot of young boys, you know, overcome. Like that's what she focuses on is young boys. And I feel like she can relate to them a lot with what she went through. And so I feel like she's gonna help a lot of these kids. - I agree. I think her experience with sobriety and then helping others recover was a beautiful part of the story. - That was something I didn't talk, we didn't talk too much about also besides what she said was her using drugs. A lot of people turn to drugs when they don't know how to cope with things or handle things that have happened in their life, right? But this therapist is like telling her, oh, maybe you should get back on the drugs. Like totally, I, what are you doing? - I think that's not what I just, this lady's insane. - I liked her quote, children react to situations they don't invent them. - Yeah. - Like she started using drugs as a teenager because of her environment and the abuse she was facing. And it's so awful to look at her and say, what a troubled child, what a bad kid, 'cause then you have that label and you believe that about yourself. - Right. It's so common whether it's not always to this extent necessarily, but I think it's so common to not validate a child's experience. And she was a child. She was a child. And then it just continued, like there's no, and she was so nonchalant the way she would say it sometimes while telling the story like, oh, also I was like using heroin every day during this period. And it is interesting to hear her tell the story because of how like blurry it is and how just her, I don't know, now looking back at it, it's, she's clearly done a lot of work to be able to do that. But I, I don't know. - Well, also, it seems like the human condition is to be really uncomfortable. Like, oh my God, that really happened. Like that's so uncomfortable. So we don't want to believe that it's true, right? Imagine her discomfort. Fuck your discomfort. Like she actually experienced it. And so whenever we have a hard time believing these things or we can't, we just can't, we don't want to talk about it. It's like, let's kind of, you know, imagine, you're not the one who went through it. - Yeah. It's so, there's so much we can unfortunately take away from this. And like I said, like the love island example, that's a new relationship, start, get with a red flag coming in. Like, I thought about how she said she just didn't, she believed they were in love and she was convinced that she couldn't live without her. So she was willing to do anything, have sex, pay money in order to keep her. - Disgusting. But imagine having trauma and going to someone for help and they abuse you like that, it's, I can't, you know. - I don't know if we want this in the recording, like I don't want to take, I don't want to steal anybody's thunder, like make, like be like, oh me too, but I had a therapist who abused our relationship. And I, I want to hear if you want to share. - Okay, so just to kind of throw my own personal experience out there, I am someone who experienced like abandonment and trauma and abuse like, you know, daddy issues, all that stuff. And so as an adult, I did seek therapy and I learned more about myself with my ADHD and depression and things like that. And I did have a male therapist who ultimately started flirting with me, but I thought we were just, like when I would talk to him, I was like, oh, this is just, he's connecting with me, he's relating to me. I feel comfortable here. And then he sent me a picture one time and was like, you know, hey, you need those, you need your meds or whatever it was. And I was like. - Of just himself or like a sexy picture. - Yeah, like a sexy picture. And I immediately was uncomfortable. So I stopped talking to him, but I, what do you do? They take advantage of where they feel like they can. It's almost like for my situation, that was one of the things I expressed was that I didn't have a good self-worth or self-love. And I thought being with a, like a man liking you or a man finding attraction in you, or being attracted to you, imaginable. Yeah, that was validation and he took advantage of that. And so I don't know what, I don't know where he thought I was gonna go, but it, I, so whenever she was telling her story in my head, I was like, this is so real. Like this actually really happens. - I'm so angry and sad that that happened because I imagine you build trust and then the same pattern. They know that it's a pattern that you experience and they know, yeah, it's like he sent you that photo because he knew that you were insecure specifically without your relationship with men and sex and self-love. - And also we're doing, we do the people pleasing thing where we're afraid to say no. So just like talking about when you switch their piss and it's like, oh, I'll just stay with this therapist. 'Cause I don't wanna hurt their feelings. That's what you do. When someone like kind of, when they insinuate something or whatever, you don't wanna assume they are flirting with you, so you say, oh, okay. You don't say, hey, don't do that. Like how dare you? Because you don't, you're doing the people pleasing and I don't do that anymore. I'll be damned if I'm pleasing anybody. You know what I mean? - Yeah, right. Oh my God. And then also you're like, you said, what do you do? Because then you're like, do I want to go through the process, the now full-time job really of holding this person accountable when it's very likely that there will be no consequences and it will just hurt you. - There were none, by the way, there were none, there were none. It was like, oh, sorry, sorry about your luck. And then finding a new therapist and I was like, well, like I can find an therapist. - How do I trust a therapist? - How do you trust anybody? So I went without therapy for a long time because I was like, I don't wanna talk to anybody. Like they're just gonna, you know, I don't know if they're lying to me or if they're just saying what I wanna hear or whatever. So what do you do? So it's a lot. It's very nuanced and I think we don't talk about it enough. So I'm glad that she came on and shared her story 'cause it is not uncommon, but we don't hear about it a lot. - And I think therapy has risen in popularity over the last, like 10, 15 years, which is a net positive. But it makes it sometimes harder to hold therapists accountable or mental health professionals accountable because yeah, I can guilty of it for sure. If I meet someone and they say there's psychologist, I don't know, trust them more. I'm like, oh my gosh, I bet their opinion on my relationship or my- - 'Cause they're knowledge about their educated, like all these things, you're first instinct is to trust them. - And I need to talk about this with more listeners, people who have been in therapy, people who are mental health professionals, you've already started commenting on part one. But if you're in our Patreon, especially, we have a lot of like in-depth conversations about the episodes there, it's $5 a month. You get extra bonus episodes and early access to merch. and live show tickets and just extra information about guests sometimes and we want to hear from you there. And then also, if you join the $9 a month girlfriend experience to you, you get all of that plus add free. Thank you for your support. And we'll see you. Those that are coming to the show, we'll see you up there. And as always, trust your femtuation. [MUSIC PLAYING] [BLANK_AUDIO]