316: The Thalmor Were JUSTIFIED... or were they?

Me ollaan aivan varmasti eksytykertu. Kato Hannu? Tuollon ootomekki. Hannu ja kertoo. Tulkataan esieme! Mistö se tietää meidän nimet? Tulkaa siemäher! Kuia kannu ja pertu. Ei kiitos. Meillä on oman evää. Uutta valjojukurtti luonnonmakeaa, jonka makeusan hedemien sokereista. Ei! Tilla mukava valjojukurtti luonnonmakeaa jonka makeusan hedemien sokereista! Niin, me süedään tätä. Arjen klassenko. Valjojukurtti. Oh! Katsomu! Ei jääkää, joten katsomu. Ei jääkää klassenko. Lohkass! Ei jääkää. Ei jääkää klassenko. Ei jääkää klassenko. Tata. Tää on klassenko. Tää on klassenko. Tää on klassenko. Tää on klassenko. see how that can she like that pendulum can like very easily swing from one side to the other when you feel like remembering our past is no longer enough because people are forgetting it. So now we need to force our perspective on other people. Yeah, not great. Yeah, not great. Not great. All right. So let's move on. During the second out Mary dominion formed in the second era, 830, the Altmer reconstituted the Thalmor as a the new government new governing body of Valinwood or Vailinwood. They claimed that they had the authority to create this government on behalf of the claimant to Vailinwood's throne. Cameron annexes me. I think is how you pronounce that. Love it. Whose ancestors had I should purposely say them very wrong so that people can like comment about. No, no, it's pronounced like this. Anyway, people can correct my pronunciation all day and I'm not going to really argue with them. Right, so so Cameron annex and exemies whose ancestors had signed an ancient treaty with the summer. So basically they're like, okay, Vailinwood's throne should really be ours and we're going to make this claim and the Thalmor are now going to be the governing body over that which also kind of tracks this idea of like their culture is different from our own, but we are going to extend our culture and force them to be more like us. Right. As Valinwood or Valinwood, do you prefer Vailin or Valin? I always say Valinwood, but yeah, but you're also awesome. I hear it constantly both, but I always say Valinwood. Yeah, you also say other words that I don't say because you have a Bostonian accent. That's Valin. That's that also might somewhat relate to it. So I don't I'm not saying you're wrong. I'm just it just means that I'm not always I have to share if it's if that's more common or less common. Yeah, we could all just be wrong. As we'll say, Vailinwood previously possessed no true unifying government, the Thalmor purported to maintain order in the region to uplift their bosmer brethren. You this. Okay. So there's always a warning flag when you're justification for making forcing other people to do things is to uplift them. Yeah, we're getting kind of weird natural nationalistic at the expense of those around you. Right. It would be like doing your best best friends. I almost said breast friend. That's funny. Your best friends make up and being like breast friend. Yeah. Yeah. Right. But you do their makeup and then you're like, now you're pretty. Right. And it's like, is that a backhand compliment? We didn't. What was I before? Yeah. It's like, what do you mean now? It's like, all right. Thanks. Right. We need uplifting. But it goes on in reality, the formation of the Thalmor was far from an altruistic gesture. No, duh. The Almer. No, really. The Almer desired to control Vailinwood because the region along with Southern Hammer fell harbored various pirate groups, which had long threatened the Somerset Isles. I love, I love the piratey stuff that happens on the southern, like the southwestern parts of the map. Yes. And this idea that you've got, like, yeah, these like Bosmer and Kajit pirates, like, especially cats being pirates is always funny to me because they don't like water. Yes, that is a valid point. So, all right. So they've got pirate problems. That's really why they want to control them. Fed up with the constant pirate attacks, the Altmer, hoped to secure the shores of Somerset for good by denying the pirates any safe haven from which to attack them. A significant figure with the second hand, hand, Almeri Dominion, Dindel Crodo, enforced a policy of non-intervention in non-Dominion lands, which few of the Thalmer sought to oppose. So they were like, cool with it. Yeah. Well, I mean, when you're benefiting from it, you're also less prone to seeing the problems with it. I feel like, so the fact that it's like, oh, yeah, this is good. They're not seeing it at the expense of those around them, maybe quite as much. That's really my only guess. So it's like, oh, yeah, things are getting better. It's like, well, yes, for you. Right. Right. Also, I think I switched Altmer and Altmer earlier. So if you've been yelling, that's going to happen. If you've been yelling, it's the other way where Altmer is the older name, Altmer is the older name. It always says, so it's one of those things they sound so similar. Yeah. Yeah. It's one that's the other one remind myself about because what as if you haven't been able to find out, if you've even noticed this yet about me on this show and any of my other shows, where you don't stay in my brain very long. Concepts, great words, not so much. So yeah, so it's actually flipped. Anyway, the Thalmer was dissolved a short time later when Tiberceptum brought Valenwood into his empire. So we've talked at great length about Tiberceptum, the conquering of the empire and all of that. It makes sense. The empire basically takes over these regions and ends whatever political strength that these organizations originally had. Basically, they're like, okay, things are not going to work the way they used to. We're going to define how things are going to work. So these organizations, more or less, just disappeared. Right. Or that was kind of an iron rule at that point, where it kept a lot of other groups in check for a bit. Right. But as you know, it's very hard to destroy an ideology. It's one thing to destroy individual people. It's another thing to dismantle an organization and saying, okay, well, this doesn't exist anymore, at least not in the way that it did previously. But an ideology is very, very hard to get rid of. Right. Especially when people have adopted parts of it, even if it's not the whole thing. Right. And on top of that, just because you are saying, officially, this organization doesn't exist anymore doesn't mean that people aren't going to meet in private in order to try to further the original goals, or at least what they believe to be the current goals of that organization. Exactly. So I think this is another thing that you see in the real world. It's very, very hard to just completely dismantle something. It's one of the reasons. One of the terrible justifications for genocide is, well, if we just kill everyone, then nobody will be left with that ideology. Right. And it's like, that's not necessarily how any of that even works. So like, the principle that this horrible act is predicated upon is already faulty. So like, right. And on top of that, if even if you were to kill all of the aldmer, it doesn't mean that the ideas would disappear. You'd have to, like, that's why book burnings happen and book bannings happen is in order to try to fight back against an idea. But those ideas can still exist. They can still linger. You're not going to find every document. You're not going to find every person who remembers what that thing was and passes on that knowledge in the future. It's very, very hard to kill an idea. So now we get to move into the third aldmer, because of course, the empire doesn't stay, all powerful forever. Now we can a bit just a sco, just a sco, just a sco, just a sco, so we've moved now from the events of the second era in ESO into the third era. And we get to talk about the oblivion crisis. So sometime prior to the oblivion crisis in the third era, 433. So there's about 400 years that pass from tyberseptom to the oblivion crisis. The Thalmar resurfaced as a radical and xenophobic political movement that espoused the absolute supremacy of elves over all other tamarielic peoples. Now tell me, based on the descriptions of the past and where this organization originally came from, Lotus, is this any surprise? No, this is, this again, we're talking about, you know, how things connect to real world. Now you've got the whole part like this ideology that we were just talking about was kind of like squashed down with the group of them. And then at what a surprise, they become more radicalized. Right, right. They are now the absolute victims of the empire. Right. So they get more radicalized. And then when they are able to start to form back again as the empire weakens, you have an exponentially more radicalized version of the thing that you tried to destroy originally. And as weather puts in chat, and so it begins. Yeah, and that's it begins, lol. Yeah, so it makes sense. I mean, again, this is something you see, like you take a group and you try to extinguish them and they don't forget that. And then they harbor that. And then they villainize the group that tried to extinguish them probably for good reason because they murdered and destroyed in order to achieve the things that they wanted to achieve. So from the almer's perspective, from the people who are now radicalized, the empire is, they're the villain. They're the villain of the story. They took their lands and they kicked out the people from Vailenwood. They didn't ever get really get some rest at Isles, but they stomped all over things. They let a war for years. They brought, they brought the new medium into it. You're gonna say it's really like, it's kind of hard to argue when it's like, well, when reviewing history, we brought in a giant death throwbot. That's right. Well, there are enemies. Yeah, look at it. I'd argue that that's not somewhat nefarious. Yeah, looking at from the almer's perspective in this instance, a man rises to power, wheels a a weapon of mass destruction against them on their home soil claims that they now control that area, murders through war and all these other atrocities, many, many people, probably millions of people, I don't know if there's actual numbers on this, but it creates all of these atrocities. And then after all of that, the people who were following this man claim that he is now a god. Yes. That would be super insulting if you were an Altmer, right? Like, yeah. So who the devines are, you know who the adra are, you claim to have descended from them. And now somebody does terrible things and claims they are among them as a god because they do terrible things. Right. This is one of the things is they are like part of their thing is that they are direct descendants. And this all of a sudden it's just like, yo, I'm also one of them descendants. Yeah. It's just like, yeah. So you've just been teeing off on us for a while and taking all our stuff. So yeah, little, that little vengeful, I could definitely see a little bit vengeful over that. Yeah. So it kind of makes sense. Now I'm not saying either side is justified and wanting to destroy murder the other. Absolutely not. I'm not saying there's any real justification for terrible actions, but what I'm saying is you kind of understand where they're coming from at least. Well, that's the point of this is to understand like how they formulated like spoiler alert. It's hard to pick sides in the elder schools because everybody is a different shade of awful. Right. Right. Yeah. And here's scene when chat puts, it's funny. Here's scene saying this, tell us is a god change my mind. And that may or may not be true, but ultimately it doesn't matter because it's what matters to the Thelmaur is their perspective of what is true. Right. And this is another real world thing. The actual facts of reality usually have way less to do with what motivates us to action than what we believe reality is or what we want reality to be. Those are the things that spur us to action. Those are our ideologies. Facts generally don't motivate people as much as emotional beliefs, which is awkward, but it's just part of human nature, right? It's 100% the way things go. It is. And sometimes that's for good, good, like sometimes that makes good results. Sometimes that makes terrible results. It's just the nature of being human, you know. Well, that's exactly it. It's a very humanized thing where it's like people are not generally rational in a lot of situations. It takes an extra level of patience and thoughtfulness to think that out rather than go with like your immediate reaction because most of the time you will have a reaction. And in this situation, the Thelmaur start kind of going on the like, okay. This is the natural reaction to this. So, you know, they can lay into it and you'll get followers that way. Yeah, yeah. Well, they're giving them, these are defeated people who are being given a purpose and being told that not only did their enemies blasphemy their gods, but they themselves are descended from gods and that they can take that back. Without getting like overly historical, like historical relevance to this, this has a lot of strontized to Germany following World War One going into World War Two. Like it's like a lot of parallels about how like there the idea was like, man, we had to play a lot of reparations for all of this. And in this situation, it was like, man, we got we got wailed on pretty hard. It's like we've not been in a good place for a while. It's kind of, I like the feeling that hey, maybe we're not so bad. This is the, you know, maybe we do deserve some stuff. Right. Except if that's misdirected, it's not wielded for bad ends by an individual who doesn't have same intentions. As it was mentioned, not just altruistic, then it starts getting sketchy. There are similar other similarities with Germany. For example, before, I believe it was before Germany invaded Austria, they got a document was signed off by 96 of the most prominent religious leaders and theologians. These would have been Christian religious leaders in German saying that they believed it was God's will that Germany take back Austria, which he, right, like with it, generally this, that's how the stuff plays together is some form is not just a religion. Don't take this as like, oh, Tom hates religion or Christian or something. This is the, it's a real thing. This is just a historical context to real life. It's the wielding of NIDology in order to motivate the populace and getting those people on board with the reasons why you're doing terrible things. It's the justification of the, the ends justifies the means, that sort of thing. This is just, yeah, the thing that I really like about the way the Thalmor is designed, there's a lot of theology and psychology behind how they rise to power, which I find fascinating in the series, right? Because I think it's really well done. Yeah, right, right. Yeah, that's, as we've been revealing as we go through this, absolutely. So what happens after this is for years, they were largely ignored, but in the aftermath of the Oblivion Crisis, they exploited the confusion by claiming credit for the salvation of the outmarry people, which greatly enhanced their influence. So the Thalmor themselves claim that they helped push back the gates of Oblivion in order to save outmarry society. And this is another one of those things where you claim, oh, we did this, we did this, we did this and nobody can prove you wrong or nobody even really cares so much about proving you wrong as just being like, oh, thank you so much because we're in dire need. Things are better, I'm happy. Right, things got better. Seems like you helped us out. We'll believe you. Okay. So in the fourth era, six, year six, the Thalmor incited the Argonians to mount a massive uprising against Moral Wind in the Empire that was known as the Ascension War. Black Marsh was lost to an Enzillial, is that hype? Zach Sleel. Zach Sleel, I've always messed this up too. With the Thalmor too lost what influence they had over the Argonians. In the fourth era, 22, the Thalmor overdrew the outmarry monarchy and seized control of the Somerset Isles, renaming them Alonor. So they're wielding even more and more power as time comes by. Right. But again, this is a situation where they kind of make a connection to another group who to no one's surprise, I would think, Moral Wind is not treated of the Argonians very politely for a long, long time. Yeah, yeah. They're treating you like your lesser, like your slaves. One of them should join with us. Yep. Make sense. Take an advantage of the poor and the needy in order to wield more power like that. Right. Which happens all throughout. I mean, that is the story of human history. It's like, sure. And then this situation is like, the sexiest might, to them that actually is beneficial because hey, okay, we're getting this what we need. They might not know about any of this other stuff going on with them just yet. Type of deal. Right. Right. Then, Vailenwood was brought under the Thomers' control in the fourth era, 29, creating the third almerie dominion. Now we have this, again, it's the same groups, all kind of well, not exactly the same groups, but another similar groups. You've got the Bosmer, the Altmer, but then also now the Argonians, all kind of together in this new group. And then, Morsev happens, but I've gone too long. We've got to go think our patrons and we'll be back because it just gets better from here, or worse, I guess, depending on your perspective. Yeah, much worse. Alright, we'll be right back. Don't go anyway. No, I can't. So, for the room, with El, for U.K., we've got this name. It's us, if we're supposed to go to our corner. For the third year in a row, we've got the code that we created, that's Denmark's most type of El-Kona. For the room, on U.K., it's code. It's our code name. This is how we are. All right, welcome to our new patrons, patreon.com/elderscrolls. Lordcast, if you'd like to join us for @FreeEpposodes, for a bunch of those early episodes that are only available on Patreon. For joining us for Patreon chats, all sorts of things like that. In fact, our Patreon chat is coming up next week, but we can't do it on Thursday, because that's Thanksgiving here in the US. So instead, we're going to do it on Tuesday night, the 26th at 9 p.m. Eastern. So come join us for that, if you are signed up at one of those tiers. And welcome to our newest patrons, Wilty, StefanG, ColbyC, and DJ Dex. Welcome. Thank you for joining us. 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Yeah, it's a brand new thing. - Probably mentioned that beforehand 'cause I actually had no idea that was a thing. - Yeah, it's a brand new thing. - Sounds like a terrible ad read. Then I'm like, "Oh my God, that's so surprising." I don't know what you're talking about. - You know, it's a real thing. So like if you have a friend who would love having a subscription or would love to be signed up in order to be on one of the tiers, you can decide what tier they get, you can decide how long you're gonna sign them up for. So if you wanna make sure they stick around long enough to get one of the t-shirts or join us in a patron chat and you can sign somebody else to join us in a patron chat and bring a buddy with you, that sort of thing. You can totally do that. Or if you haven't been able to afford a subscription, but somebody else could gift it to you, you could tell them, "Hey, gift me a subscription. All they have to do is create a Patreon account and doesn't mean they have to sign up." But once they have a free Patreon account, they can have a Patreon account just to have one. - Right, right. And then they can just gift you a subscription, which would be super cool. So it'll help us out, but hopefully it would add some more people to the community and all of that. So that's an option. But thanks everybody for the support. Let's move on with the rest of the show. Here we go. - You're listening to the Elder Scrolls, Lord Cass dear, child of cities. But is why the Knight Mother loves you. - All right, so we get the reformation of the third Al Mary Dominion, or the formation of the third Al Mary Dominion, but the reformation of the Al Mary Dominion. And then we get this. The Knight of Greenfire occurred in the fourth era, 42 when the Thalmer attacked Altmer dissident refugees who had fled persecution in Alonor and were living in the city of Sentinel in Hammerfeld. According to a Legion officer claiming to be an eyewitness, there was an explosion of magic in the refugee quarter where Thalmer mages were attacking the Altmer dissidents, who in turn were resisting with magic of their own. So it makes sense. A bunch of Altmer fighting each other, shooting spells at each other, they're all very magic, right? Running to the scene with other Legionnaires who were stationed there, the eyewitness found the entire refugee quarter a smoking ruin and that everyone had been slaughtered. This Knight appeared to have been part of a broader effort by the Thalmer whose agents harassed the refugee communities in Sentinel and Balfiera, where somehow involved, and that were somehow involved in elsewhere, funded insurrection groups and were connected to a pattern of murderers where the victims were all of mixed blood or had associations considered by the Altmer dominion to be, get this, unclean. We've got racial cleansing happening. - Yep, now we've gotten real radical. - Now we're getting real racist. And the fourth era, 47, Prime Minister Hyrem, made a secret trip to Black Marsh to negotiate with the, let's say, how do you say this again? - Anzaliel, excellent. - Anzaliel, - Anzaliel, I like that. - Leader skill. - That word is always weird. - Anzaliel, sex, Leo, they're all very, - Yeah, and leaders. - The leaders, supposedly to propose an alliance against Thalmer against the Thalmer. Now they were like, okay, Argonians, we need to go against the Thalmer, intended marrow of the penitus, ocularis had Colin-- - Oculatus, ocularis. - That one enough in game, that's the only reason I know how to pronounce that one. - All right, ocularis had Colin Vinebin investigated if the Thalmer had summoned Umbriel, but he could find no evidence. Umbriel is a whole other thing. The books, the novels we talk about this on occasion goes into Umbriel, all of that stuff. We're not gonna do that here, maybe that's something else we cover in a future episode. The elsewhere Confederacy voluntarily dissolved and reforms the ancient kingdom of Anakina and Pelotine in the fourth era, 115, which then became client states of the Thalmer. So now you've got the reorganization of elsewhere to the original two areas, as they were originally known historically, and they've now, as the Kajit, signed up with the Thalmer. - So their power is growing. - Yeah, yeah, they're definitely, they're sort of collecting those that don't have, like that have been downtrodden already, they're suddenly being scooped in, like in a becoming part of the like, "Hey, things aren't great for you either. "I'd have to be better if you worked with us." And it's like, "Oh no." - Yeah, let's all group up and hit back at the terrible masters who've been abusing us. - Right, things aren't good, maybe they'll be better with us. You won't know until you try it. - Right, right. Then we get to the Great War. It is said that of all his enemies, Emperor Titus Meade, the first never managed to defeat the Thalmer. And it would be Titus Meade II who would pay the price. When Titus II inherited the Imperial throne, the Thalmer instigated the Great War in the fourth era, 171, by delivering a series of ultimatums to the Imperial city, then presenting the head of every blades agent who had been stationed in the Almeri Dominion when Titus II refused their demands. Basically, they murdered all of the blades who were these officers for the Empire, right? Like they were the people who protect the Emperor, but they also do some of the shady spy stuff. Cut off all their heads and sent them back to Titus II. After four years of bloody war, a stalemate was reached. The Emperor was forced to sign the white gold concordat. Essentially giving into the Thalmer's original demands. One of the concordats terms mandated that the Empire relinquish large tracks of land in southern Hammerfeld to the Dominion, which outraged the Red Guards and resulted in the secession of Hammerfeld from the Empire. So now we have a situation where the Thalmer are wielding all of this power. They end up in the stalemate. They end up with this document that is signed where they are able to make demands, which then piss off the Red Guards, who feel like the Empire is leaving them, and they leave the Empire. So now they're getting the Empire to divide, which is leading up to a lot of the stuff that you probably are more familiar with, especially from Skyrim, because you're like, oh, this is why the Empire is in such a dire situation by this point in the fourth era. Any thoughts on that, Lotus? - Yeah, I mean, so, I mean, not as much just because it's kind of a continuation of the problem that's been slowly arising. And it's very efficient manipulation of the situations they're given, which is, I mean, tactically very intelligent, and how to get people to follow your cause, and along the idea of this, it was brought up by weather and chat. So I guess before we get too far from it, maybe we should rewind ever so slightly. - Yeah, yeah, go back, that's fine. - Okay, so without getting too far ahead of ourselves, along the lines of this manipulation tactic, so it does tie in, but like, so there's this thing called the void knight, and thanks to weather for kind of bringing up the fact that we did gloss over how like, the kishit kind of started to jump on board with this, which as we were talking about with kind of like the racial thing, like, oh, had they jump on board so easily? And during the void knight's, which was a situation where the moon goes missing. - Right, yeah, yeah, super weird. - Right, which we can actually do, like, I don't know if we need a full episode on the void knight's, but essentially, the long and short of it is with the moon missing, and as we've talked about, kishit have such a strong tie to the lunar cycle. - Yeah, it defines when you kishit, in which first stock they are, and all that. - Right, the moons are sacred to the kishit, and them going missing is very problematic obviously, and it's not a good omen. So when they essentially things go back to normal, essentially, they credit for it. - The film, we did that. - Yeah, yeah, just like the other stuff that they're taking credit for. Oh yeah, we push back the oblivion crisis, that was us. - We push back the oblivion crisis. - We fix the moon, that was us. - We fix the moon, don't worry, it's okay, we got you your moon back, and since the moon is back, and on top of that being, okay, so now they have their basically religious background, back intact, and there's, you know, you have these magical, I mean, magic a heavy race, I guess, would be a good way to just put like, you know, high-els and stuff like that. Okay, it's not out of the realm of possibility that they have, you know, major strong enough to do something being involved with this. So it's like, oh, I guess they brought back the moons. - Right. - You know, maybe we should side with them. So it was just like, talk about like a perfect seizing of an opportunity. - Yeah, yeah, and there's a pattern - To a political push for them, and as a result, you now just, you basically just swayed the kajit to join you. So that's just why that happened. We did kind of just mention that they joined them, just for context for everybody, because it is kind of a cool story. And that is obviously super condensed. - But it plays into the theme of the Thalmor just manipulating each event in order to put themselves in the good light in order to manipulate people in need in order to join their cause. - Yes, exactly. - Right, so let's jump back forward to the Red Guard. So fighting continues in Hammerfell, but the Red Guard's eventually forced the Dominion to negotiate, and the second treaty of Strasse Macchi was signed. And this stipulated that the Elmeri forces withdraw from Hammerfell, And this was. signed in the fourth era, 180. This led the Red Guards to believe that the Concord Dot was a mistake and Titus II had overestimated the Thalmer's strength when he signed it because basically they got them to negotiate. So why couldn't the Empire get them to negotiate? - Why couldn't the Empire? - Right, and just don't fight Red Guards, they're real tough. - Right, and maybe the Thalmer knew that. Maybe they were the ones that they were worried about. - Right, it does not seem like, if you're going into martial combat, it seems like that Red Guards are not a probably a very good choice to go against. - Yes, so another term of the Concord Dot was the outlawing of the worship of Talos and the right of the Thalmer to enforce that ban within the Empire. So this is, if you're playing Skyrim, if you only ever played Skyrim, you're like, why is the whole worship of Talos so difficult? Like, why do some people think it's okay and some people don't? Why is the Empire not supporting it? Like, that's why. And if we end up with an Elder Scrolls VI, which is focused on the Red Guards and Hammer fell, if we have some questions about some of this stuff, like their connection to the Thalmer, that's also explained here. So that's the foundation for that. Then we end up with this section. This is called Riverquest. Circa IV era 180, members of the Thalner led by Justacar Arananday, arrived in Riverquest and other surrounding towns and villages, where they stated they were investigating for blades agents. Henrik and the warrior worked to hide their identities by leading the Thalmer on suicide missions and giving them false leads. With creatures such as bears and undead, alien king, or aliens killing Thalmer soldiers as they fell for these tricks, the Thalmer were also tipped off on the location of a temple of Talos and intended to kill the worshipers there. However, the warrior discovered the location of the Talos worshipers and warned them before the Thalmer could go to them. After this, the warrior also managed to kill the Thalmer messenger before they could relay information on who the hidden blades were. Eventually, the Thalmer discovered the identity of Henrik and had him killed, but the warrior avenged him by killing Justacar Arananday. And you might be like, okay, what does this seems like a side thing? It's absolutely a side thing. - You don't want to be a side thing. - Yeah, this is absolutely a side thing because it's from, and we talked about this last week about how little the blades mobile game actually plays into the greater lore. Well, this is one of those little side things about the blades and this conflict with the Thalmer from the mobile game. So if you're wondering, was there any plot going on with the mobile game? Well, a little bit. - There is. It's referenced. There was a plot that was referenced. - Right, and it's kind of referenced there. But the thing that most people are more familiar with is the Skyrim Civil War. So in the aftermath of the Marcarth incident in the fourth era, 176, the Empire was forced to crack down on the worship of Talos in Skyrim in order to maintain the white gold Concordat. They permitted the Thalmer to operate inside Skyrim and suppress Talos worship when it had previously gone largely ignored. So basically the Thalmer are like, hey, we had this deal that you're not supposed to be worshiping Talos in the Empire anymore. Skyrims in the Empire, how come you guys aren't maintaining this? And so the Empire's solution to that was, well, we can't really, we're kind of overstretched, but if you guys wanna go make sure that they don't worship Talos, go for it. - Yeah, that's not great. - It's not great. - It's not important for us to laws for us. It'll be fine. - Right, and you can see why the Nords would be totally pissed off by having this foreign entity come in and tell them what they can, can't do. - Yes. - And the fact that the Empire was just kind of like, yeah, that's fine, I guess. - I mean, it's fine. Like, what are we gonna do to stop them? We're not doing our best right now. - Right, right. It goes on, this persecution was a notable factor which led to the Stormcloak rebellion. Again, no duh. By the fourth era, 201, the Thalmer were well aware that Talos was especially revered by the Nords as both a god and a folk hero. We're using the Concordat as a justification to carry out a campaign of persecution against Talos worshipers from their embassy in Northwest Skyrim. Their branch in Skyrim at this time was overseen by Ellen Wynn and they have been known to secretly capture and imprison any Nords who questioned their doctrines or beliefs. As of that time, there were reports indicating that Thalmer justikars are judiciars. - So I was gonna say judiciars. - So I always say judiciar or did say judiciar? I've heard it pronounced in game, justiciar. - Judiciar, openly expressed. - I've got it assumed they know better than me 'cause I used to say judiciar, but I said the game pronounced asiciar. - Justiciar, openly expressed hostility towards the Nords with many individuals advocating for a genocidal agenda. It is believed by important figures within both the Dominion and Empire around this time that the Thalmer were preparing for Second War. And that's where our story of the Thalmer ends and why there's so much speculation about what's going on with them and what else they're gonna end up doing if we continue the timeline into Elder Scrolls VI. - Well, right, and at this point, they have amassed a lot of power. Like they are now a formidable threat. - Yeah, yeah. - True. Basically just any opposition, not even a specific opposition in Tamriel, it's just kinda like, yeah, now we're like we're going to run the show. Like, and this is what we wanna do and it's becoming an actual issue if somebody is going to fight back against it at that point. - Right, and you can see how the Empire has just kind of rolled over and let them do whatever they want. - Yes, the Nords are not happy about it. - They're really late at this point. - Yeah. - Like they really just don't have the capacity to do much to fight back. They're pretty much just, ever since the White Gold Concord that they have been beaten down pretty bad. - Yeah, yeah, so I mean, we'd speculate about the next Elder Scrolls game all the time. We've been doing this for years, but I would, I'm 99%, 99.9% sure that the Thalmer are going to be a part of that story. - So it's interesting. I would largely agree with you, especially. - Maybe not like the primary focus of the story, but just like in Skyrim, a significant portion of the story. - The primary story in Skyrim is Alduin and Dragons were turned, right? But then you have the secondary story about the Civil War and then you have this connection to the Thalmer and why they're important having to do that. - Overall, I would gladly agree with you. I think it would almost be interesting, just because sometimes the time jumps like can be big, a lot of times they're close together, but one thing I do love about this series is they don't need, they don't always show you everything. - That's true. - Sometimes you just get a recounting of major events that happen between. - Like, okay, so are you saying what if we jump another few hundred years into the future? - And the Thalmer is the Empire. Either the Thalmer is the Empire or something happened along the line, so like, okay, did they make a push for power, but then got blindsided by this other group and now this new group and taking power, but like they push into Hammer fell and the Red Guards reclaim their ancestry and sourcing and have pushed them back. - It was like a huge setup and it was just like, oh no, the Swordsingers actually were here this whole time and cut down all of the Thalmer total embarrass the Empire and that was just like a Red Guard or something. - That would be freaking amazing if the Red Guards were like, hey, we get the political climate here. We're just gonna be quiet, we're just gonna hold back and build up our power and refine this ancient skill that we have so that when we do have to fight back, nobody's gonna expect it. That would be really cool. - That's what I'm saying. So it would be interesting if we jump past this conflict because I feel like, and I'm not disagreeing that I think this probably be where it goes. - The main thought seems to be that since they have been set up like this, that they will be the next threat going on. - Right, they do seem like they're getting to this climax of them being the big bad. - Do you think so if that doesn't happen, people will be pissed off that it doesn't happen? That we don't actually see it on screen? - So here's my thing. I think one thing about the storytelling within Bethesda Games, I'll make this blanket statement and people can disagree with me or agree with me. - Everyone always agrees about blanket statements. They never creates any controversy. - They have simplified the storytelling in Bethesda Games recently. And it's a critique that they get quite a bit and they kind of tried to adjust it a bit with star field, I feel like. But it didn't necessarily expand as much as they seem to want to have it expand, especially with shattered space expansion from what I've heard. - Yeah, it still feels fairly surface and they also don't really just - Right, so the explanation for things are kind of just happening. - I feel like they would not stray from that writing style that they've been trying to do, where it's a little more obvious, straightforward, which doesn't necessarily mean bad, but it does mean like a little bit predictable in a lot of ways. The series I feel like prior to that was not so much that. So I don't know. - Yeah, I have to wonder. I think it would actually kind of pay homage to the roots of the series pretty well if they were to just be like, yeah, so we were building this. Here's basically some of what happened and now the next game actually is the consequences of this whole huge mega event that you didn't participate in. You didn't matter to this event. - But that would happen. - And the series happens without you - Yeah. - You didn't have your input. - That would add a lot of depth. Also, the only other games we've had since Skyrim, that continue in existing story are Fallout 4 and then Fallout 76, which is like a prequel. And I could not have predicted those storylines. I would not have been able to predict the storyline of Fallout 4. Like, it makes sense when you look backwards on it and you go, Oh, the Brotherhood is much more extreme and they're more like this. And there were hints about synths and Fallout 3, and so they've expanded that story about it since our-- That's true. --but I wouldn't, like, if you had asked, if we were doing this podcast a decade ago, and you have said something-- And you were like, what's going to happen in Fallout 4? I probably would not have, like, definitely would not have predicted the storyline. I also could not have predicted the storyline of 76 either. Sure. So I think maybe what I mean by that is maybe it's that the stories are a little more straightforward in a direction. Yes. And they're less like windy. Right. And I feel like that would open up a lot of gray area, which the series excels in, of all this, like, okay, what actually happened during this? Because we never experienced Red Mountain blowing up and-- Right. Right. --wicking Vardenfell. Right. Yeah. --it just happened in between games. Right. So Morrowind was stronger because those crazy things happened in the past, and it was the reaction to those things that we were-- Right. So it's just like, I think it would just be an interesting twist going forward if they didn't-- Like, it seems like that's where we're going. It would be quite the misdirection if that's not where we're going. We just pick up on like, yes. So anyways, all this happened while you were gone in the 20 years plus-- --the first time-- --the first time, oh my god. --I don't think you're wrong. I think that that could happen. I think there will be something significant that happens between Skyrim and Elder Scrolls 6. There will be things that we do not experience. There also a great antagonist though. So it's hard to argue that that would make for a pretty wool war scenario in-game. Well, here's-- like counterpoint to that is Bethesda really loves having factions that are not just black and white, but are gray. --Yes. Right. So very much so. Having an absolute-- even Alduin is kind of gray. Maybe he's supposed to end the world and-- I was going to say the big thing is, did we screw stuff on? Right. We talked about that in the past. So it's like, was that not the right call? We have let this kelp end or did we really screw things up by dragging this kelp on? Is it like now outside the realm of what should be happening? Right. Aside from like Moleg Ball and Mayrun's Day gone, those are typically the darkest, like most just obviously evil. We've talked about some other-- some other days are being maybe worse, but we don't really know. So the ones that we do know, those are the most black. Right. And even Day gone, we've brought up the fact that Day gone, it's like, well, yeah, the idea is destruction that provides creation. So it's like even you have some-- the day your prince is literally blowing stuff up, but it's like, well, yeah. But also it's the god of creation. So it's like, well, yeah. You can't have new growth without the forest fire that clears the way for the new growth. Exactly. So it's like oddly, just always almost gray. Well, Moleg Ball's really the only one that I'm not sure this one is gray or the-- Right, right, right. He's pretty-- He's pretty just flat out obviously trying to stop, yeah. Yeah. But it's a good question though. Like, would they allow the Thoumore to be as-- but it may be an interesting way to play out a store. What if they did this? What if there's a very strong argument to be for the Thoumer in at the beginning of Elder Scrolls 6? Right? Like the beginning of Elder Scrolls 5 in Skyrim, there's this whole, like, you are-- you're sitting there, they think you're one of the rebels. And so I feel like the Empire is about to behead you. So the impetus there is probably you should side with the rebels because the Empire seems like they're bad guys right now. Yes, right? Because of just the situation you're in that moment. The situation you're in that moment. They do not work with the Empire to start. To start and nudges you that way, and then you talk to people and you kind of go, "Okay, well maybe I'm not going to go that way or I am or whatever." What if the beginning of Elder Scrolls 6 nudges you more in the direction of-- No, Thoumore are actually the good guys here. Right. Like, what if-- Yeah, what if you get the other perspective? It's like, "Okay, here's-- or it's like it turns out that once they actually do get into power, they become altruistic or something weird." Right. Or we just see a depth that we get like this behind the scene stuff and maybe there's just more evidence that they're doing the right thing than we realized. Or at least they seem to be-- What if they're correct? And they actually are like, "Okay, well no, we needed to become separated from our mortal beings to go back with our ancestors in a chance." I mean, there's a-- the world of fantasy. Maybe that's actually what should have happened and we botched it by preventing-- Right. Maybe the Manish races are destroying the world by just making a bunch of terrible decisions and misunderstanding what the age or wanted them to do. Right. So if we're trying to course correct this whole time. Yeah, that would be a weird misdirection for like how they're painted. But it would just be-- it would be fascinating if they had to be shown in a very different light than we've been led to realize so far because so far doesn't look great. Right. Right. Then that would be fun. That would be fun. That would be fun. A little twist, a little flip. I'm sure every-- like, no matter what. And somebody said this in chat. It was a weather driving. Oh, yeah. It was going to say, "No weather." Some people are going to get pissed off when you're in a weather. No matter what. So it doesn't get-- Some people are going to be mad about the next game, no matter what. And they're going to say, "I beat it in 12 minutes." Yeah, whatever. Right, yeah. But like, I wouldn't design the game around being fearful of what is going to piss people off. I would design the game around what is going to be a really interesting engaging story. So hopefully that's where they're going. We'll have to see. But there you go. We've wrapped up the thumb or why they're important. Their history, all of that stuff. I hope this was informative and entertaining for all of you. You have anything going on you want to share? No, we're still-- we're finalizing actually by next show. I believe we'll have the exact details for the plan for our extra life, which will be the weekend of December 6th, which is coming right up on us. But, but it's obviously much harder for me this year. Can I have a lot of fun? USP is going to be there supporting us with giveaways. Like we always do. I'll have some of my own giveaways. And, you know, even if you just want to come hang out with us, watch us play some stuff. I plan on playing Daggerfall because I'll have some time dedicated to it. So I'll be able to get back to it. And then obviously some Elder Scrolls online. But it's just kind of a long day of Elder Scrolls related fun for a good cause. So feel free to come by, hang out with us. It'll be me, Ark, Promethean. I actually believe. If I can be of all they will, I still have to figure out what's going on with it. And then you're still working on trying to figure it out. Crown Asso is actually going to be joining us to toward the end. I actually think Dave, who's the USP founder, he's going to join the chat for a while and stuff. So it should be a fun time that weekend for a good cause. So feel free to come join join us for all that. Even if you can't donate, that's totally fine. I understand money. Money does not grow entries. Absolutely. Absolutely. That's part of it is just having fun and getting the community together. And like if you can donate to a great cause, please do. But if you can't, you just want to be part of the fun. Absolutely. You know what, join in. It makes people sometimes don't realize that it makes it enjoyable for us to do because of that. Oh, yeah. It makes it a lot easier to go and continue on with this stuff. So it should be, it should be super fun time. Like I said, well, I'll make sure to bring the details to the Patreon chat next time. And let everybody know. But yeah, so that's that's my next big project on the horizon. Very cool. I hope I can be evolved. Let's see what happens with jury duty and how exhaustive. For sure. I'm hate whatever is going with that. Or if I have to catch up on a bunch of episodes over the weekend, if things I can't do because I'm stuck in jury duty, I don't know. We'll see what happens. This is be the third time. And I just like, okay, haven't I done my civic duty? Guys, when I don't know, I guess not. But yeah, come join my stuff. You guys know where my other shows are. Lord of the Rings, Lorcas, the Fallout, Lorcas, the Mass Effect, Lorcas. Those are in this show or my current shows. I've been brainstorming some new things to maybe do in the future. So I'll have to see. I'll keep everyone posted. RobasRadio.net for stuff. For live streams, twitch.tv/robotsradio. I've jumped into stalker two yesterday on stream for a little bit. I don't have a regular schedule, but I do. I always enjoy being able to hang out with the community. Please come by and visit me if you happen to see me live. It makes my day to just be able to hang out and chat with people, especially because I work from home by myself all the time. So being able to actually have people to talk to while playing some games really does make my day. So I know I don't stream all the time, but if you do see me, that means the world to me. So thanks for doing that. And I'll be back next week with our patrons on Tuesday night. So come join us if you can do that. And we're coming up on Thanksgiving week. Some people will be on vacation and stuff. So hope you have a wonderful week. And we'll see you next time. So until then, you know, we need a page. Randepage. You're right. Other than having to do our few times one. And then you're seeing the Lord of the. Lord of the Randepage here. Lord of the Randepage. I almost prepped it ahead of time. And I was like, now, remember. And then I always forget. So here we go. This one's a real short one. I hit the button. Online. This is from Elder Scrolls Online under the Creature section. Theos. Theos is a hot pepper, mantem guar, who can be found in the master bedroom of surgea socias manner in Necrom. He's one of those little fire babyguards guys chicken guars. Yeah, little chicken little fire chicken. I call them fire chickens because I got a false favorite. Yep. There you go. His name's Theos. So nice simple one this week. He just hangs out. Yep. He has. Oh, and this is a fun little stat. Guess how much healthy has? One. One. Yes. One. (laughing) - How do you know you play too much elders' goals online? How much elders is this Phantom Gwar half? - One. - One. - Just one. That means like if he stubs his toe, he's just dead. It's just like art. - Yeah, you can only make it down one step at a time otherwise it's lethal damage. - Right, right. Oh, I ate something bad. Dead. I farted too hard. Oh, dead. I mean, he shoots fire out of his butt. He's like a fire chick anyway. All right, there you go. Stay safe out there if you have a fire chicken. Don't accidentally explode him in your house. We'll see you next time. Bye everybody. See you later. (upbeat music) Thanks for tuning into the Elder Scrolls Lorecast. Check out robotsradio.net for more podcasts just like this and join us on the robots radio discord. Be part of a community of over 5,000 people who are excited about video games and so much more. Robot radio, games, lore, stories, community. Just press play. (air whooshing)