The Talented Mr. Dogfish

The following program contains names, places and events that have been anonymized or fictionalized for the purposes of protection and safety. The following program is provided for entertainment purposes only and any commentary from the hosts are strictly conjecture and should not be held as making any definitive statements about the truth or identity of any particular individuals or circumstances. If you or a loved one are involved in an abusive relationship, please call the National Domestic Violence Hotline at 1-800-799-720-334-Support. Happy dating to Tech Tips on Day. We love you guys so much. We just had the best time in Chicago. Thank you for everybody that came to our live show. I'm really, I'm on a high last week was insane amazing and let me just say as always, I want to express my gratitude but man you guys really showed so much love and support. Thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you for supporting our show and listening, thank you to our Patreoners and just all of our sleuthies and for listening to the show coming to the live show and we just were obsessed with you. The next live shows are going to be in Orlando, August 5th and Tampa, August 6th. So if it's anything like the Chicago show, we're like, the tickets are selling and they're linked below so go get your tickets if you're in Florida and also adding to your gratitude. Thank you for sharing stories with us that y'all see online. Our guest today, Emily will I'll tell you more about her in a little bit but she you somebody, you know, you guys sent her TikTok to us and it's such a good story today and also very, I know we say it every time but like a very valuable story that is important to hear. Well it so is because the more we share these stories the more we're using our voice as a weapon to fight back against these situations that happen that everybody we don't nobody wants to talk about it because they're so ashamed and so we really appreciate when you guys come on and so vulnerably share what happened to you so that we can again use our voices as a weapon. So yeah, so courageous. So thank you for engaging with that conversation with other people on sharing the show. If you're in Patreon, thank you, thank you, thank you. We do five dollars a month and you get two bonus episodes and all kinds of other stuff and access to stuff before everybody else or we just get to like chat with you more in depth and then you get all of that plus add free listening if you do the nine dollar a month. So thank you, Patreon, thank you, live show, get audience, thank you future live show audience and thank you listeners. Thank you Mackenzie. I'm like, I feel like I'm accepting an award. I want to thank you. We're still reeling. We're just obsessed with you guys. Let's just be real. We're totally obsessed with you. So thank you so much and yeah, I think you this this week's guest you're really going to. I mean, I just I don't understand how these I don't understand. I know I'm still confused. But let's give Emily the floor and just hold on to your seat. Hold on to your pants because I need everyone's reactions and comments. These things. Yes. Thank you for being here. Emily, we're so glad to have you. I don't know how glad we are, but thank you for being here and sharing your story. Thank you for having me. We're happy to meet you. We'll say that. It's great to meet you guys as well. Well, take it away. It's you have the floor. Okay, thank you. Yeah, so I met Leo during the pandemic early 2020. I was actually visiting a friend in Chicago at the time and ended up quarantining with her because that's when the lockdown started. But just after that, I met Leo on a dating app and we agreed to meet up. It wasn't a big date or anything. We just went on his rooftop and had some drinks and a COVID date, a COVID date. Exactly. What dating app? I always like to know. Hinge. I was actually just getting out of another relationship at the time, but was excited to meet new people. Wasn't really expecting much to happen, but we hit it off immediately. It had great conversation. He asked me a lot about myself and vice versa. He was a couple of years older than me, like four years older than me, but he was funny, smart, checked a lot of the boxes I was looking for in a boyfriend and was really fun to talk to. We talked a lot about travel and work and random interests. We both really liked reading and had a lot of commonalities that were easy to chat about. What did he do? He told me that he worked in investment banking at a large bank. I was also going to get into finance at the time, so we bonded over that. But yeah, it just seemed very nice, normal, no red flags immediately. We kept it touch, saw each other a few more times, while I was in Chicago for about two months quarantining. And then I eventually went back to New York peak summer of 2020. And that's when we were deciding, okay, are we going to make it official and be exclusively boyfriend and girlfriend? That would mean the long distance relationship since he was still based in Chicago. So I remember talking to my friends when I first got back to New York about this guy and I didn't know if I should immediately jump into this next relationship or stay single because I had just gotten out of another relationship. But then I was like, oh no, this is a really great guy. It seems dumb to not date him just because, I don't know, I want to have fun in New York, I don't know. So why not pursue it? Yeah, so we agreed to do long distance. He came to New York, met a lot of my friends. I was actually moving apartments with one of my friends and he came and helped us remove so much stuff, which I thought was so kind of him. All of my friends really liked him. He was really funny and eventually made individual friendships with my friends as well. How often did you see each other? I want to say maybe twice a month for about a week at a time. I stayed in New York, the whole pandemic pretty much and his job was remote. So he would come to New York for a week and go back to Chicago for a week in New York. That's crazy. Yeah, it was a lot. And then outside of that, we did the summer end of road trips around New York and Connecticut and stuff together, which was nice. I was a really pleasant way to spend the pandemic to be honest. And so we were dating for about a year. Then I got a job offer in Boston summer of 2021. How far is it from New York? Boston from New York, is that like a four-hour drive? A four-hour drive, okay. So I moved up to Boston for work and then we continued long distance. He was starting to go back into his job, having to not be full-year vote. Sometimes he needed to be on site. So when I met him, he was in investment banking, but leaving that role and going into more of a financial consulting firm. And this was back when consultants would spend Monday through Thursday at their client's site and then go home for the weekend kind of thing. So he was doing a lot of travel on site to visit his clients for work. And then on the weekends, he would come to Boston a lot instead of back to Chicago. So he just continued kind of long distance, but still saw each other very regularly. With the long-distancing, was there any trust issues, any communication issues, or did it work out pretty well? There was no concern there. Yeah, not really any concern. I think I had some trust issues from my past relationship, but he always made me feel really secure about things. I didn't have a reason to believe that he was doing anything that I didn't like. It felt like one of the healthiest relationships I had ever been in, which was super refreshing. And we didn't have a lot of disagreements or arguments or anything. When we did, we had very healthy styles of communication to kind of work through them. So it was really great. And as mentioned, he was a couple of years older than me. So I was like, wow, maybe it's because he's had the more relationships and he's more mature. And like, he just gets it, I don't know. We'll get into that later. Oh boy. I know. We're like gassing him up right now. I'm like, "Why are you here?" This is wonderful. This is not. Which just makes it that much more concerning. But anyway, so we continue long-distance, do some trips together and stuff. He continues to meet my friends. I've met some of his friends, his family. And then it's time for me to renew my lease in Boston. But now we're talking about getting a place together. So I end up staying in the same building, but I got a larger apartment. And we decide to share the rent. He applies to the lease and everything. Everything goes well. Oh, nice apartment. Yeah, it was great. He gave up his apartment in Chicago and smoothed his stuff to Boston. But it was great. He moved in and it was nice to know that even though he was still traveling a lot for work, now every time he would come back to Boston, so that like sometimes, you work out. Yeah, exactly. So yeah, that was exciting. He made more money than me, which was not the surprise to me because he's older. So we agreed to share rent proportionate to our incomes. And yeah, that was super comfortable for me. And throughout our entire relationship, he always paid for dinners and drinks and most of our trips and things like that. I would pay for like his birthday dinner, get him something. But for the most part, he was paying for everything that we did. So we were in Boston and then about six months into our lease, he was talking about how he was really burnt out with his job. I wanted to go to a different company or not have to travel so frequently just do something else, which I understood. I could see how stressed he had been doing all the trouble all the time. And I think a lot of people in finance had a point where they're like, okay, I want to pivot into something not as intense. Yeah, yeah. So that was not really a surprise for me. He decided to take some time off of his job to apply to other things and just kind of figure it out. And he talked about what that would mean for our finances, like him, contribute, interest and everything. And so that's when we had the big discussion about finances and how long he could actually not work before it becomes a concern. What else came up in the finance discussion? Was that like a full disclosure or kind of just what we need to talk about because of rent? Sort of. He showed me some of his accounts to make me feel more comfortable, but he's like, I did not never work again, but I'm fine for a while and we can continue, like, as usual. So I was like, okay, yeah, as long as you're not messing up my rent situation, like that was like you weren't combining anything or exactly. So he left his job December 2022 slash January 2023 that he like left his job and started applying to other things. And so he started the interview process for this hedge fund that was based in New York. Not a surprise. It seemed like a normal trajectory for someone of his experience. And so started the interview process. I remember him spending a whole weekend working on this case study locked in our office area, working on it. We would talk about it a little bit. And then he was going through the interview process. I could hear him on these interview calls. I remember the final interview that he was doing. I was in the living room, basically. I could see the back of his computer, but then his, he was facing me. Yeah, exactly. I was in the call was an hour and a half long, but I was just sitting there and pretending not to completely use the job, but also I was excited. So I was like, of course, kind of trying to like out a lot, basically, was he wearing headphones? Yeah, he was wearing headphones, but he was talking through one of the case studies that he had been working on. And then a week later, he got the job offer and we were very excited, went out for drinks to celebrate. But the job didn't start until this was where I want to say like April, maybe of 2023, and then his job didn't start until June or July. So how long was he out of work by that time? Three or four months or so before he got the job offer. So around that April time, we were starting to plan our summer travel and we had gotten a house in the Hamptons in prior years and just like run for like a month or so and we would have friends come. So we were looking at houses to run or thinking maybe we'll go to Europe for two weeks or something. So we were kind of like looking around at all of these plans of what we would do and then he was like, would it be okay if you book these things and then I'll repay you when I start my job? And part of it was kind of like, it was in the phase when I was doing some travel for work and I loved being able to get the points for stuff that I didn't have to pay for. I was like, yeah, we could put it on by, I'll get five x points or whatever, let's do it. And I felt comfortable with it because I had seen the job offer and we had been together for over two years. I trusted him. Nothing had ever really been that much of a red flag. So he pays for everything up until this point and everything but like most things. Most things. Yeah. So I was like happy to help. And so I did. I booked our Hamptons house and one of my friends was actually going to stay with us for almost that month. So he sent me some money from a room in the house too, but I fronted the whole cost basically. And then we had booked a week in Europe, he had sent me the hotel. He had my credit card and so I would just give it to him. He would book it. And then I would just see the charge and I don't know, it was fine, but I wasn't part of making the reservations or anything because I was still working. He wasn't working. I was like, that's your job for right now. It will be the travel plan. What was he doing when he wasn't working? What was he doing with his day? He was working out a lot. I don't really know actually, I was going to the office a lot, so I don't really know what he was doing during that. But he wasn't like, he wasn't home, like playing video games, like he was keeping himself busy. No. You go grocery, stop it. He got into cooking. You do a lot of cooking for us actually, which was nice. Oh nice. Okay. So he was doing something. He was enjoying his sabbatics. Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. I was quite jealous, honestly. I was like, I hope I could take a sabbatical. It's a good sabbatical. There's a good sabbatical. It's why Shopify has the best converting checkout in the planet. It also helps boost conversions, meaning less cards going abandoned and more sales for you. So it's time to turn those what-ifs into with Shopify today. Sign up for your $1 per month trial today at Shopify.com/datingdetectives. Go to Shopify.com/datingdetectives. That's Shopify.com/datingdetectives. So while we were in the Hamptons, it was June. His job had started. So he was commuting into New York City to go to the office. We shared locations for years prior to that. But sometimes I would check in to see how long it would be for him to get home and stuff like that. And he was always where I assumed he would be at their office. And then I started asking for. So I started asking for repayment for things. And there would always be an excuse for why he can't repay me right now. Or like, can we just wait till like a signing bonus. It'll come in the first 30 days. So by the time that he had started his new job. And I was talking about being repaid for everything. He was talking about how he just wanted to move some funds around. And he would like CC me on email threads with a wealth manager at UBS. And so I was chimed in at one point about like when can we expect X amount or whatever. And I would receive an email back from this email saying a specific date that the funds should be good to go. And I was like, okay, well, this is a real person as verified by the company website and LinkedIn. The email address wasn't sketchy. It was very corporate. Yeah, yeah. And so I was like, okay. And his job was focused on the Asia Pacific region. So they invited him to go to their Hong Kong office. And again, a lot of companies let you book travel on your own card and reimburse it. Or you can use a company card. But for people that want to get points, people prefer to look on their own card and then get reaffirmed. Yeah. And so he was like, did you want to book this and we can get the points and like. Oh, we got points. Sure. I was going to go with him. I've never been, I really want to go and his hotel would be paid for by the company. I would just have to pay for my flight. So I'm like, yeah, sure, I can book the flights, whatever. And then he was out of town. I think he was in Chicago visiting his family. And so basically while we had this house in the Hamptons, we were also moving out of our apartment in Boston. And we're going to put stuff in storage for the month before our apartment in New York started. So we were moving out of Boston. I was organizing everything for the movers. And I found a second phone. In our closet. My whole plan was waiting for something. And at first, maybe it's just an old phone, whatever, but it wasn't then, so I was like, hey, and I don't remember what the past code was. Then I started like, I was getting like really anxious, like, I don't know. I had no idea. - You like do good. - You knew something about that. - Yeah, like my side dropped, and I tried a few passwords, I was literally shaking, and I got into the phone. - You discovered the password just guessing? - Yeah, I don't remember what it was. - I knew the password to his other phone. I never really looked through it. But I just knew it, 'cause I'd change music, lower drivers, whatever. And I started looking through it, and there were all of these texts with so many people that I didn't know, and it was very evident that he was cheating on me. - It was women. - Yeah, and so many of them. And cheating on me in the worst ways, like when I'm at work, they would come to our apartment. - Shut up. - For some reason, I almost felt like he wasn't even in the state, but I felt like I had such limited time to go through it, and I had to find everything, and then by a certain point, I was like, okay, no, I need to go through this deeply, and figure out what's going on, and I started taking videos. And some of the things I saw were just so hurtful. I was like, I can't even look at this anymore, but I just remember, I don't think I'd ever known what shock actually was until that moment, because I was realizing how much the person I have lived with for the better part of a year has been lying to my face every single day. I found one where I was sick. I had gone to bed early, and he had someone come over, and they hooked up in the stairwell of our building. I was like, what? Well, I was just, I was like, we would agree. But like, yeah, it's a team. - Oh, that doesn't sound fun. Okay, when did this start? Does it go all the way back? - Back to, I found all the way back to like 2020, this is 2023, so back to like 2022. But I'm sure that it had gone on longer than that. He just wasn't living with me before then. And things that I saw on the phone didn't really align with him being at his job five days a week as per I thought. Like, he would see girls in New York while I was, he was at his office. And I'm like, surely you can't leave your new job in the middle. - Yeah, like, what do you do on chicken and extended lunch break today? - I'm like, maybe he's like paid for a wee work and just invited them over and that's his office. Like, I'm imagining his sanity. - But I also knew the company, I knew the office. I picked him up from that office building before. And so part of me was like, do you even really have this job? But then I was like, that's crazy. We're going to hog hog, that's crazy. - That's crazy. - To the extent that you're comfortable, can you share anything else that stood out to you that you saw in that moment? - So I noticed that a lot of them, he had met on seeking, I guess it was seeking arrangements at the time, which is a site that connects women and men and like, - In relationships, right, ain't it? - In unknown. - Yeah, in relationships, but usually when there's a man or a woman that has a lot of money and someone else is like, - Oh, like sugar daddy stuff. - Yeah, it's very much so like a sugar daddy dating site. So I would say, hey, this is volleyball from seeking or whatever. So when I went to Safari and I went on seeking and all of his history came up and it was just like, seeking, seeking, seeking, seeking, seeking, seeking all into his profile and it was the same vlog into I logged in. I saw his profile, I saw his messages with other people and I was like, what? - So he's paying all of these people? - Yes, but not all of them because also in the text, I see girls that are like, this check didn't clear, you owe me money and like all this stuff. But then I also saw an Apple Pay, there was like minus 500, minus 1,000, minus so like, he was paying some people, he had booked trips for other people to hotels or flights or whatever. - Flies. - Yeah, he had flown people into Boston and would get them a hotel. There were messages talking about me, which was disturbing. What do you say about you? - Just stuff, I would be at work or like, I'm out of town in a certain weekend or when I was sick, he was like, oh yeah, she went to bed early. - So he was not hiding that he was in a relationship? - Yeah, no. - That makes me sad. That makes me really sad. Just the idea about the people that are like, whatever. - And what was really disturbing also is it almost seemed like some people had a cheating kink. Like it was, like they got off on the fact that relationship. - Yeah, it was adding to the whole experience, which I was like, I don't know, to each their own, I guess. So I was like, you're nice to me. I was in shock. I couldn't even believe he was out of town, but I called one of my friends and I was like, Leo was cheating on me. And she was like, what? - How do you know what I told her? - Like all the stuff that I thought, yeah, pretty much. Like all the stuff that I thought on the second phone, she was like, oh my god, what are you gonna do? And we decided eventually I wasn't going to tell him yet. So when I decided not to bring it up to him immediately, it was really hard. And I had so much rage inside me that I wanted to just scream at him, honestly. But there was so much going on in terms of I didn't know where I was going to live after this house ended. I didn't know really how to approach the conversation without him continuing to lie to me. And there's just no headway you can make in a conversation if someone's not going to admit the truth. I also knew how much money he owed me and I really want to jeopardize that. In case he did have the job and he could pay me back. Like I didn't want to stir up so much drama about like he, like almost like when you find out he's like, fine, I'm not taking your phone. Yeah, like well, like you invaded my privacy. So I just wanted things to remain status quo until I felt like I had my feet under me and then I could handle that whole conversation but I didn't know how it would go. I didn't know what the end result would be and I felt like once I brought it up, I couldn't go back from it. 'Cause my immediate thought was, well, I'm paying for so much of our life right now. Are you using all of your money to pay them? Are you using my money to pay them? Why are you ripping so many of them off to you? Also, how long have you been cheating on me, all this stuff? So that's a lot. It was a lot and I was just kind of like, I really can't handle all this right now. I just need to move. I need to figure out how to get out of this relationship. I did not sleep that night. I just have looking through everything. And I didn't know what to do. What do you do? Yeah, I didn't want to immediately confront him about it because also I'd seen how much he had lied to me just from the text and I had no idea. So I'm like, surely he's not just going to come clean and I don't have it in me to have his whole fight right now. Yeah. I'll do it. So did you talk to him? Did you have to like text him, "Goodnight, love you." Yeah, I just continued as normal. I didn't want to talk to him on the phone because I was like, yeah, I would sob. But like, I was going to let it, yeah, exactly. So the movers came, they packed everything up. They brought ourselves to storage. We went back to the Hampton's house. She's like in person with him. I guess in my head, I thought he was maybe traveling. So you're with him keeping it together as much as you can. Yes. So he came home after you found it. Yes, he was visiting Chicago while I was doing some packing and then we met back up in New York kind of after that. How, what is that? Like, what is it like to see the love of your life and pretend like you don't know what they've been up to? It was really difficult. I definitely took a lot more space than usual. Like, usually I would be working from the living room or kitchen and we'd be together, but instead I would stay in the room and work. There was just so much of our life that was intertwined. Like, we hadn't signed a lease on an apartment in New York yet. So all of our stuff was in storage. We had this house in the Hampton's but I didn't really know where I was going after that. And we also had that trip to Hong Kong coming up in the next week. And my plan for this was, I knew that I didn't want to hop in normal vacation with this person but I was like, once we get to Hong Kong maybe I'll get my own room. I'll figure it out. Wait, you were still going to go? I was still going to go. I still had my. I'll just be like, I just wanted to go and I figured, I didn't know. No, I jumped before I dumped this asshole. He's taken me to Hong Kong or I'm taking it whenever. Yeah, and at this point I was like, oh, probably still be refunded from the company. I'll get my own hotel room. He would be working for most of the day. Anyways, I'd be alone. And I just won't do dinners and stuff with him. I don't know. I was like, I can still have a nice time in Hong Kong even if it's not a romantic trip, whatever. Good for you. You're better than me. Well, we'll see. But so, it comes, we pack all our stuff. We drive to JFK. We had a late night flight at like 10 p.m. or something. So we parked in the car and parking. We took our bags on the shuttle. We got to the terminal and it's time to check in. And he was always really good with like, he's very type A and I'm not. So he would handle all of our travel stuff. We got to the checking counter and the lady's asking for the tickets. And he's not doing anything. You know, I'm just looking at him and I'm like, where the tickets, like, let's go. And he just stares at me and says nothing. And I'm like, you don't have tickets to Hong Kong, do you? And again, nothing. Like, I'm not gonna cause a scene in the airport. So we just grabbed our bags. I got back on the show and back to the car. And I'm like, what the fuck, like-- - Wait, and you even, he had a flight that you were trying to make. He knew the actual flight he just did not have the ticket. - Wait, didn't the money come off your credit card? - Yes, the two yons I wasn't looking that closely. Like-- - So where did the, where did money go? - I don't know. I eventually did the full audit of my expenses during that time. - Yeah. - And I don't really know. - It just said like American Airlines and then it was like just no ticket ever produced, were produced from that? - Yes, my theory is maybe he bought points with it or used it for other flights with other girls or something. I'm not really sure. - He used it for them. - That's the thing. If you have a lot of flights on your statement, I get confused even in my email sometimes and I don't travel a ton. It's like, which flight is which? And then especially, it's not like it's saying like, to Hong Kong on your credit card statement. - That's so people-- - Exactly. - Another flight, you would see it. That's what I thought. And so, when we get back to the car, he's silent. I was yelling for a second and then I was like, honestly, he was like in some kind of coma. So I was driving and then eventually we got back to the city and I was like, get out the car, get out of the car and then I was having a complete breakdown and I drove up to the stage and got a hotel and just stayed there for like two days. - So he had no answers, like he just said nothing, like he was just-- - Yeah. - There was no explanation, there was nothing. And so then I was on stage. - But I'm sorry, I need a little more. So what are you exactly saying? - In the car, like are you just like, what the fuck and he just says, like, what's happening? - And I brought up the cheating and I was like, I know that-- - Who you did, me? - Yeah, so like this is huge. And he just said nothing. He just stared straight ahead. And I was like-- - Wait, can you tell us-- - If you remember, can you walk us through that? Like, what did you say? - So we were walking back, we were on the shuttle, was getting back to the car and everything and I was asking a bunch of questions. I was like, why didn't you book the flights? Are you ever going to Hong Kong? What is happening with this job? Do you even cover Asia? Do you even work there? And then I was like, how much are you lying about? I know that you're cheating on me, like, my mom is like nothing. But he was giving me nothing. He was kind of teary eyed and just not saying anything. And my blood is just boiling. - Uh-huh. - I don't know. I didn't know what to do. I remember he was like, yeah, I remember he was walking to the driver's side and I was like, no, I'm driving. And he said, nothing, just walked around at the passenger's side, got in. - And just got misty eyed. Oh, boo-hoo. - Why would he let you all get all the way to the airport, though? Like, he knew-- - What did he just think? - He just think the thing would magically appear. Like, I have no idea-- - Did he think you bought them? - No. - I have no idea. Like, my theory is that he just is unable to tell the truth. And he would take a lie. Literally, I'm sure if we could have gotten to Hong Kong and waited outside of a hotel for a reservation, that didn't exist if we would have done that, too. So, thankfully, that just happened to me. - He literally let you go all the way to the ticket counter before saying, oh, so there's a way to tell you. - He didn't say shit. - It was so embarrassing. I was like-- - Yeah. - It was like, why are we standing here in front of this airport ticket counter? - I just don't understand. I don't understand. - I don't understand. - To this day, I don't understand, and this was like three years ago. - So you got to the ticket counter. He's looking like a dumb, like what's going on? I don't know. - He's looking like a cardboard cutout just staring at you. - His face that is permanently burned into my brain of when we were at the airport, and I was looking at him, and he was just had this blank, almost guilty. - He looked on his face of like, I've got nothing for us, and my blood was like, I had never been so mad in my life. - So after the airport, told him to get out of the car, and I drove up state to crash out alone for a few days, and that's when I connected with one of the girls he was having in a fair with, just trying to piece more things together and get more information, probably to my own detriment. - Oh, tell us, tell us, tell us. - What happened? How did you get a hold of the sugar, baby? - Turned her number on his phone. - Damn. - And he owed her money. She had blown to Boston multiple times, it had gone on other trips together. Did she know about you? - Yes. And he owed her money, but it was really crazy about that, also is that the phone that I had, like the second phone that I found, that number, she associated with his assistant, and so she would have group chats with him and the phone number that I had for him, and then this other phone, and he would pretend to be his own assistant, named Omelie, which I was like, why is it so weird? So weird. I've like, well, I guess that's what he was doing all day, when he wasn't working, he was making up a whole fellow fake world with his assistant, Omelie, and coordinating trips, and this girl was so confused. And I was like, this is the situation. This is him, his real number. He also is pretending to be his own assistant, and I am the girlfriend who has just found out about it. She asked me if I could help her in this situation. - Help her! - Being stranded, and she was talking about how she feels, really used from this whole thing, and he's not responding to her anymore, and she doesn't know what to do, and I'm like, girl, I can't. Like, I love to get you right now. Just, I'm sorry, but you gotta figure it out. I'm trying to figure it out too. - Do you know how much money he, I guess, helped her get out in New York, but do we not much money, she was owed? - I don't know exactly how much. I saw other messages with other girls where he owed $1,000, $1,500, but I'm not exactly sure how those played out either. He owed me about $60,000 at the time. - Dollars! - Oh my God, Emily, I'm so sorry that happened, you know? This is like major- - American Dollars? - Yes, I believe. And so, a day went by, and then we talked on the phone, and I was like, I really need to understand what's happening right now. Like, honestly, I feel like I've locked up for most of this conversation, and that's when he finally admitted that he didn't have this job. He was like, yeah, I need to tell you that I actually don't work out. So-and-so. And I asked him, I was like, so where were you going every day? I saw your location at their office, and he just kind of said enough. Like, he would give me some things, but he didn't give me answers to everything. He didn't answer that question, again, it was just a silence, and I was like, are you ever going to tell me what is fully happening here? And he was like, well, what do you want to know? And then I asked him again, and he was silent again, and I was like, okay, like, I don't understand. - Okay, okay. - So what, yeah, what did you get from him? Just that he didn't have the job. He didn't have the money to repay me, and that he had to do on me, but it's not what I think. And I'm like, what do you mean? It's not what I think. I found this other phone, and he was like, oh, but that's from so long ago. And I was like, no, it's not- - You don't have dates on text messages. - And when he admitted to not having this job, he did tell me what his job was, which was, he worked at this philanthropic organization to help them raise money. This company was based in Cleveland, and I knew that for a while while he was having his consulting job, he was doing a lot of work in Cleveland. I had gone with him at one point, just to hang out for a few days. But come to find out his whole company there thought that he lived in Cleveland, but every time he would go, he would just pay for a hotel out of pocket to work there for the week. - What? - And this was when he was consulting, not when he got the hedge fund job? - This was the job. So he told me he worked in consulting, and that was the job he was burnt out of, and wanted to quit. Come to find out that job never existed. He was working for this other organization. He thought he lived in Cleveland, but he was actually just paying probably like $6,000 a month to go to this hotel every week, and pretend that he lived there to work there Monday through Friday. - Where he does have a home. - We were living in Boston together at the time. - I'm so confused. - So he was still going to Cleveland. - Wait, so he never had, when you met him, the job said to him. - He never worked in finance. Basically, yeah. - Oh my God. - Yeah, he never worked in finance. He also told me that he had gone to Northwestern to get his MBA. That doesn't have an MBA. - Wow. - Never went to business school. - Did anything ever come up when you were with his family, where you'd say like, oh yeah, and look, there's a lot of frustration. - Not really. We never really discussed work when we were all together. I'm looking back on how has that never really come up, but every time we talked about work, it would just be a super casual house work going out. It's good, it's stressful, or I'm traveling a lot. I don't know, it was just very generic. - Well, he might have been telling them that he had a finance job. - Yeah, I don't know exactly what he told them. I don't know exactly what he told his friends. I have no idea. - And I also realized this wealth manager wasn't real. He was impersonating this wealth manager. - How did he impersonate the email? - How do you do? Oh my God. - Yeah, get the email address like that. - That's so vital. - The email domain, and I have no idea. He did his research, though, because he was a real person as verified by online sources. I was emailing with someone who had the UBS, thank email, address, and it was a real person. I saw them on the company website, but it wasn't him that I was speaking to. I wasn't actually speaking to him. - And then as a review, when he interviewed for the job? - Yeah, he was just like talking to someone, or himself. - No, talking to himself for like hours on end. I don't know why he would dedicate an entire weekend to a case study that didn't exist. Or why he would commute four hours a day to get to Manhattan to go to the job. You don't have just that's a lie. - That's a lot to follow through with this lie. - Yes, agreed. Which is why every time I would have some kind of angel, I always just cracked it up to my anxiety because I was like, "Well, no one would go this far to lie." But they do. - So for three years, he didn't ask for any money. And he is acting like he has a finance job and is paying for everything. Where do we think he got that money? - I have no idea. - Do they have enough money on the hook? - Oh my god, I'm wondering. Like I'm like, was I the sugar baby to someone else's? - Oh my god. - I have no idea. I have no idea. Because I didn't see his accounts on various points and it had money and we did a lot of things together that cost money and I wasn't paying for them. So. - So he had money at some point for something. - Yes, but the job that I found out that he had there's no way that he could afford that often but he was making. So I don't know where all of this came from. - So it's a big fat mystery. - Yes. - Oh my gosh. - And then I also brought up. It seems like you owe a lot of other people money. He's like, that's all been sorted out. And I'm like, "So did you cheat on me and pay the board? Did you cheat on me and never pay either way?" Like, it is just that. - You're gonna cheat on me. At least pay them. - Right, he's honest to it. But then who's money are you paying them with? - Exactly. And I'm like, so why don't you have? Well, presumably you have no money to repay me because you've used it all and paying them or not paying them or whatever. And then eventually I was just like, I can't. I feel like I got the answers that I needed which were, he's lied to me about so many things and he can't repay me. And I was like, okay, I need to, I need to go. There's really nothing more to talk about. Like the cheating honestly was like the least of my concern at this point. It was just like, I need to get it up. - I need to get it up. - I need to get all my stuff out. - You're gonna say you're gonna do for your life. - Yes, exactly. - Yeah. - You guys, I have to tell you about my undies. My undies from Skims are amazing. So I lost 175 pounds over the last couple of years. And so my body is a little softer than maybe it was before. I've also had a baby. And what I love about Skims is I love their cotton fabrics because they don't squeeze the softness in my body. So it doesn't make me feel like a busted can of biscuits. They are so comfortable. And they feel really good on my skin. I love their bras. I love their undies. I love literally everything about them. The waistband, the fabric, all of it. I know Hannah, you like Skims too. - I really do. I'm quite picky about undergarments and clothes in general. Like if something's not comfortable, I just can't, I really can't do it. Skims is truly the most comfortable underwear. And also can I shout out there. They have a cotton jersey straight like pant. - Oh, yes, I do. - I live in like change my standards for lounge wear, unbelievably soft, stretchy, but not too stretchy, somehow cozy, but also like flattering. Like they're just the best. Their pajamas are the best. But I know a lot of people who are very wide range of sizes and have a really hard time finding that perfect fit. Or also even color range. - Yeah, I like that Skims has both. - Shop Skims cotton and all of our favorite pieces at skims.com. After you place your order, be sure to let the know we sent you. Select podcast in the survey and be sure to select our show in the drop down menu that follows. This episode is sponsored by BetterHelp. - The stigma of mental health gets in the way of people actually getting the support that they need. Even though we talk more now about mental health and we have in the past, asking for help can still feel really hard. And actually BetterHelp's latest research confirms that. BetterHelp's 2026 state of stigma report surveyed 2000 Americans and revealed that 85% of Americans believe that getting support is wise, but 74% say that society discourages people from doing. So believing in mental health support and actually seeking it is something that we could really work to close the gap on. I know for me personally I have a lot of anxiety and I suffer from all kinds of overwhelming thoughts. Sometimes things in just regular life feel really overwhelming. So I like BetterHelp because they give me the tools and resources that I need to help work through that. With over 30,000 therapists, BetterHelp is the world's largest online therapy platform. They've served over six million people globally. They have an average rating of 4.9 out of five for a live session. And they have a strict code of conduct and are fully licensed in the US. I really appreciate that they narrow down the therapist that they recommend based on the questionnaire that I fill out. And then I can switch my therapist at any time as it's comfortable for me. Don't let stigma stand in the way of support. Start therapy with BetterHelp. Sign up and get 10% off at betterhelp.com/tdd. That's betterHELP.com/tdd. Then I remember I was staying with a friend for two weeks. Thankfully, I was a disaster. I would not have survived this period without my friends. And are you still working at this Boston job or are you trying to get a new job in New York? So I actually had just gotten a new job. Of course, to make it easier. Yes, I was fully remote. So I was going to be in New York. And I was just starting it like June of that year or something. It was like the last part of our time in the Hamptons. And then for those of July, I was staying with a friend kind of figuring out all this stuff out. I signed at least in New York. And then I needed to get all of our stuff from storage. So I call the moving company. And I'm like, hey, I need to deliver these items to New York. And I'm like, well, we can't do that because we were actually never paid for moving you out of your Boston apartment. I'm like, what am I? Because I specifically remember sending him a bunch for the move. And I'm like, we'll work that out. So then I had to pay for the move again. And then pay for everything to be moved to New York. And I was like, honestly, I'm just moving all of his stuff too. I'm just going to take it. And now I'm going to put it in storage and like sell this stuff. Maybe I can get like some stuff by selling his bag, selling his couch, whatever. But he keeps calling me and texting me. And he's like, I need my stuff. And he's like, I don't know. I guess he also was trying to get some of his stuff back at this time. How you were going to get it back, but you also have to pay them again. But then he was talking about him meeting his stuff back. And I was like, I just consider this me buying you out. I just had to pay to move all of this stuff, go figure it out. And none of his outreach is about trying to get back together. Sort of. He would text me and be like, we really need to talk. All of the stuff I'm like, no, there's really nothing more to talk about. He would call and FaceTime me all the time. And I wouldn't answer unless it was a specific logistical thing that I needed. But then he-- and I don't know how he found out where I lived. But he would start showing up outside of my apartment. I remember I was coming home from lunch or something one day with my friend. And we see him sitting on the stoop of my apartment. And I'm like, what? What are you doing here? And we didn't go. We kept walking down the other street. And I was like, what is happening? What is happening? And then I finally went back. And he was still there. And I wouldn't let him into the building. It was just a huge mess. And then he was in Chicago. And he had to go to the hospital for some reason. He was sending me hospital photos. And he was like, I feel so terrible. I really just need to talk to you. And I'm like, I don't care. I was like, I don't care. I don't believe in that for a second. I think he stubbed his toe and made a thing of it so he could send you sob story pictures. It was insane. Is he telling any of your mutual friends anything about your breakup? No, so I told-- I mean, it was really embarrassing. So my closest friends knew the details. And then I just told everyone else we broke up. I really, really appreciate it. If you don't continue to update him on my life and preferably you kind of cut ties. But I also had never been the person who was like, oh, we broke up and you can never speak to them again. But I was also like, this is a situation that I want everyone to be as far away from as possible. Well, at some point it's like, if he did this to you, he would do this to someone else. Totally. And then I also never reached out to his friends or anything eventually a month later, because my credit is now fucked for a lot of better words. Because I put all this stuff on my card that I can't really afford on top of paying for my whole life. I remember actually I had gotten approved for an apartment and I felt so lucky because it was a week before I was about to get my next credit statement. It was right before my credit score took a pretty big hit because I wouldn't have paid back this amount of money. And I was like, thank God, I got approved. But I still had good credit. So eventually a few months later, my friends were like, you need to reach out to his parents, ask them for money. So I worked up the nerve to son. I put him, his mom, and his dad in a group chat. And I just, you had already met them by this point, right? Didn't you say you met them? Yeah, we've got a petition with that. Um, but they didn't really say anything. They didn't reply to the message. And then separately, he texted me and he was like, my parents aren't going to be responsible for the situation. I'm like, okay, whatever. I was kind of shocked. I mean, I guess as a parent, I wouldn't want to take on responsibility for my kids' mistakes. But I also, I feel bad for the person that he hurt. Yeah. And I probably wouldn't continue to support him. I knew that he was living with them. I don't know. I don't know. I mean, like, you go get a job and you get a girl back. Right? Yeah. I don't know. It's not like he's dumb. Like, it's not like he doesn't have the experience to get a job that pays well, right? Like he, he's educated, well, educated, dude, like there's nothing stopping him. Yeah, he could be a model scout. There you go. Goodness gracious. Okay. So you're not getting anything from him. No. I tried to look down the path of suing him. But unfortunately, I can't sue for legal expenses. But I'd been advised depending on how long it drags out. We could rock out. It would cost you more money than any of you about as much as he owes me. Is there any, I guess we've talked about this a little bit in previous episodes. So even though you consented to giving him this money, he didn't use it for what he said he was going to. Which is a crime. Yes. And we had very basic contracts or whatever, but I did want an in writing that I would be repaid five or 30 times. Oh my God. You had it in writing and he was like, yeah, totally. No problem. No problem. Yeah. So if anyone knows a pro bono attorney, let me know. But yes, that's currently where we stand. I haven't been repaid. When was this? When was this? This is 2023. 2023. So you're looking for a pro bono attorney in New York who's willing to take this on and help you. Or Chicago, I guess, because that's where he's been. I don't really know the jurisdiction that it would need to be in. I mean, it happened across Massachusetts, New York, and Illinois. So when you got into your new apartment, talk about trying to get back to yourself financially and emotionally. Yeah. You're definitely carried a lot of trust issues with me to every relationship, whether it was a friendship or dating. Because now you're like, everybody's lying because I trusted him. And now everybody can just lie to you with all the green flags. It takes one person for you to see how easily people can lie to your face. Yes. And that's what I was so shocking. I was like, I know people can lie, but I think the extent to which that you would choose, the lie is like going all the way to the airport, pretending to be in an office all day, was he just sharing locations from another device or would he literally just sit outside of an office for eight hours a day? I have no idea. What do we-- I mean, you said you're not-- obviously, I get wanting to cut ties, but do we see anything on social media? LinkedIn. I have blocked him on everything. I would still get random texts and face times from him all the way up until-- I didn't block him on text until summer of last year. And I would still get random texts and face times that I'd never answered. I think part of me was just hoping that one day I'd get an Apple pay for like $10,000 a piece of paper. That would be nice. What was he saying in these texts? You would be like, hi, or hey, or I'd look at my phone and see a missed face time call. And then I started dating someone else. Yeah. That's crazy. Crazy. I'm like, what do you even think I would respond to that? Like, oh, hey, fellow. Where's that? Good to see you. I was saying, I have no idea. So eventually, I just blocked him completely. And I have no idea where he is or what he's doing in his life or anything. Was there any point after you found this out that you looked back and you were like, oh, my God. That was a red flag. Because hindsight's always 2020. Kind of. I mean, there was one time where he was coming home from a work trip and I was at the office. And I left the office early to surprise him. I thought we could spend the afternoon together. I was hanging out because we hadn't seen each other all week. And he was so angry at me for coming home and not telling him. But that was because he had just flown someone in and he was planning to go meet them at the hotel per the text that I found. Oh, my God. And I couldn't figure out like why he was so angry. Because you ruined his date with his sugar beer. Yes. Yes. Oh my gosh, if you are going to surprise him, he's like, how can I have girls over at random hours if I don't know when she's going to come in? Yeah, how can I cheat if you're going to come home early? That's stupid. To my Emily, how do you know? I know. And then there was another time, summer of 2021. I was on a work trip in New York, but we were going to the Hamptons with some friends. So he was going to meet us from Boston in the Hamptons. And I was going to travel there with my friends from the city. And he was running really late. He said that he had some issues at the bank that he had to take care of. And he ended up being like six hours late to the Hamptons. And I was like, why are you doing at the bank? He'll take so long to sort out. And he was talking about how he had the margin call on his investments, meaning like, like, borrow against his stock portfolio, but it dropped in the markets. And so he's low needed to be adjusted, whatever. And I was like, I don't know. I was like, this is not my problem. And I don't really want to think about it. And we weren't combining finances at the time. And I was like, that's your-- But your finance girl did what he was saying makes sense. Like, you were like, oh, that made me talk to talk. Yeah, he definitely did. And a lot of my friends also work in finance. One of them worked at a competing hedge fund. And I remember them talking a lot about this new job that he was starting. He fit right in. Oh, my God. It's just so bizarre. It's very like talented Mr. Ripley. He really fit the part. So he knew what he was talking about. Although he didn't go to school for it, he still knew a lot about finance. Yes, except for-- I remember, while we were dating, I was applying for other jobs and stuff. And a lot of what I needed to do for the interview processes were case studies and financial models. And I would ask him for help with things. And I remember sometimes he would talk with me through these things. And it wouldn't really make sense as to what I would do. But I just kind of trusted him because he had been working in banking far more than I had. And he's like, oh, that must be correct. And so I kind of-- And you trust this guy, yeah. Yeah. And so I didn't even want to think about how many jobs I didn't get just because I was like, oh, he must be right. Oh, my God. Oh, wait, that's crazy. That's insane. Wow, so you're a couple years out. And you did eventually want to share on TikTok the story. So how's that been? What got you to that point? For a while, I couldn't even talk about it without just feeling completely re-traumatized again. I didn't want to think about it. Even when I was looking into suing him, I couldn't really focus on it for more than 30 minutes without getting completely overwhelmed. By this point, I've gone through other relationships that I felt were somewhat healing. I've had a long time to process. And I don't feel as ashamed of it anymore. Yeah. People are like, they're crazy. It's so embarrassing. Because everyone's going to think, oh, that was a stupid of you. But I'm like, honestly, I hope in the future still about two, three years into a relationship with someone. I trust them enough. So I don't know. Well, that far into a relationship, that's a pretty good time. It's not like you're two weeks in and you're trusting him. This is someone that you've built a life with. What the hell? Exactly. And people have brought up the point about AI now, think about all of the other things you can face now because of this. And also, I don't know if he's still doing the same thing. You're trying to date other people. Of course he is. And then also the more that you talk about it, maybe I will find someone who can help me figure the situation out or like, I don't know. I'm just so tired of carrying all of the consequences of this while she's probably gotten none. So he's just getting laid in stairwells. It's fine. Yeah. Good for him. Anybody in the comments ever say, like, I think I know who this is? Yes. Some people have. I haven't, like, fully been able to verify it. Those groups on Facebook are mediating the same guy. I've thought about posting it there. And I would really like to, like, I had, honestly, to, like, completely dissociate from it. Even when I was talking about it on TikTok, like, I have an old whole album on my phone still, like, all the screenshots and stuff that I found at the time and I was going through it. And the whole airport thing, I forgot that happened until I found messages of me talking about that. And I was like, oh, my God, I forgot about that. And I forgot about talking to this girl until I was going through it again. And I was like, wow, I really dissociated hard for like the last three years. Maybe that's why I'm okay now. Because even when I was going looking at stuff again, I was like, wow, yeah, that was insane. I think I just spent so much time trying to make him a reason forget about him and forget that all of that happened, even though the financial piece still affects me. So that's the part that I remember most. But I think the multiple layers of the cheating and the lying and how far he took things and all of that, I tried to just kind of sweep under the rug to have any sort of healthy relationship with friends, family, other boys, like, because I don't know, I just couldn't carry all of that with me. And like, I think part of what helped my healing journey is trying to remember that. this while it's not like an isolated incident and people do lie and are insane. Not everyone is like that and just trying to remain open to that's the heart of experiences. Yeah. And if you can only do so much healing on your own, yeah, you need to have new experiences that reinforce that things are okay. You can have a healthy relationship and not everyone lies. And so I feel like I spent a lot of time explaining myself, but until I have more relationships with people, that were healthier and they didn't lie to me and they didn't scam me out of money. It's really hard and I feel like everyone, a lot of people, especially after I shared on TikTok, were really commenting like I would never be in a relationship again, blah, blah. But you would have such a hard time, yeah. Yeah, but it's so isolating. And the thing that helped me most to heal was to remain open and still careful and things, but that's so brave of you. You open to the new experiences because like you have to retrain yourself to know that. And also, what are the chances that something like that happens again? I don't think it will happen again. How has dating been, if you want to tell us? Yeah, I, well, you know, dating in New York is interesting itself, but I've had situations with people I was in a relationship last year that was pretty healthy. We're not together anymore, but it had nothing to do with him. He had a job and it was his job. Yes, that's another thing. He was also very kind of successful, more successful than most people, his age. I remember my friends were like, okay, well, we have to, Google him, we have to verify this. Like, we have to really do it. Just trust it all, really nil. Trust, but verify. Yes, exactly. So, it's definitely been interesting. Like, I'm just, yeah, it's just so humiliating and disgusting and violating and like, I was so uncomfortable in my own skin. And I even have like, sometimes like, I want to say it was almost like PTSD, like even when I was like working or just going about my day, I would see the messages in my head again and flinch because I'm like, so like, it's just, I can't get it out of my head and I have a visceral reaction to seeing these things. And I remember at one time, I was at brunch with my friends and I was like, and I flinched and I was like, no, and they were like, what are you okay? And I'm like, yeah, I'm just having flashbacks and all this stuff I saw on this phone. And that happened with months randomly. It was exhausting. I was like, why am I having like PTSD from like text messages, but it was just truly so vile. It impacted you too much. Yeah, I think it was also because like, I trusted him so much. But then it's like you, you almost, I don't know if you're like most people, most people feel like they blame themselves because how did I not see it? Why did, and then you feel stupid because now it's like, I can't even trust myself to protect myself. Yes, totally. There was a long period of me not feeling like, I didn't want to make any kind of decision because I felt like I couldn't trust my own decisions. Yeah, I'm stupid. I can't make my own decisions. I made this big one. And this was very bad. And now you can't trust yourself. And if you can't trust yourself, who can you trust? It's a spiral. Yeah, it was really, really tough. And I think that's why I just tried so hard to forget about so many things because I didn't know how to really handle it. Yeah. Or should you have to know how to handle that? You're definitely not an idiot. And thank you for telling us the story because you are a very good example of somebody who's not an idiot who protected themselves, who's a hardworking person. And it can happen to you too. Like it can happen to anyone. And it is very valuable to hear women like you share your story because you will make a lot of people feel less alone in theirs. So thank you for sharing on TikTok and then coming to talk to us. Yeah, thank you for having me. Another comment I saw was like, I don't know, something about just like trusting people, but it's like no matter like how much you look into something, like someone who has staked their whole life on a lie, like their lie for their life. They're always going to have a reason. They're always going to have an excuse. No matter how much you check, they will have something that checks out until you get to their report and realize there's no flight. And that's why we go to therapy, y'all, because we just have to learn to accept the maybe of life. And that's tough. That's tough to do. Let's do it together. Yes. Oh my god, this guy. And it feels like there's no resolution. You still are out that money. You're still suffering the consequences of this. And that's the most frustrating part. Now I feel I have killed mostly from the emotional part of it, but it's still tangerably impacting my life. Your ruined credit is like a tangible sign. Yeah. Yes. And I've had to pay for things that I didn't want to because like, why did I pay to move our stuff twice? And it's frustrating also all the things that I could have been doing this whole time. Had I not had this hanging over me and also knowing that I don't know like, I don't know what he's doing. He was like living with his parents, but like, I assume he's gotten some kind of job in the last three years. And he's probably now has a new apartment and continuing his life as like, he doesn't owe someone something thousand dollars. So that's really insane. I hope karma catches up. That's insane. I can't with this fella. I cannot. Like where I want to know where he is. I don't know what he's doing. I am moving to New York and I have a lot of friends in New York and we joke about like, oh, the finance bro's red flag. But it's like, at least most of them are actually finance bros. I know, right? I can't believe that someone went to the lengths of, well, first of all, why go so long? Just you spend all this time like not doing anything that we know of. And then all of the sudden, now you're a jackass and you're like, I don't get it. I don't get this time. I don't understand any of it. I don't get it. Well, I can understand building a foundation with her. Like, I, you know, he, I think he could have feelings for her that are genuine in his way. I don't think they're like normal person feelings, but and then, right? And then you get security out of sharing an apartment with her, which is like, okay, he locked that down. He's got his home base. He can yeah, live his like high life now. Like, I understand the motivation as much as it is abysmal. But then, yeah, I think you were on to something when you said, maybe he realized she found out because why else would it just blow up randomly? Why else would he just stand there at that, that airport counter? Yeah, he was frozen. They was like, he was frozen in fear. And I feel like there was no indication based on her story that she was going to be some kind of cash cow. Like, right? I just, I don't understand where he thought she was going to. It was like all of a sudden, he just said, hey, can you put this on your credit? And little by little just started using her credit. And she, I don't think she had a bunch of cash. Like, I think she was 60k in cash. Of course. I think she was using her credit and ruining her credit, shall we say? It was a good warning sign to me because I am the person that's like, oh, put it on my card, I want points. I want points. And I've gotten more into that recently. And now I thought it's a bad thing. But I just got to remember, you know, when you cannot pay back, as you become a grownup, you start to see that the points are actually so much fun. They're so fun. How are they? They're too fun when you can't actually pay the credit card back. And I think it's the same thing. You know, we always say, don't loan anybody money if you can't live without it coming back. Just be ready to give it to them. Let's think of credit cards in the same way. Yeah. That's a good reminder. I feel like a little bit of, I don't want to speak for Emily, but it seems like she was in shock. She couldn't confront it right away just because of the sheer shock of everything. Isn't that what it seems like to you? Like, you're, you find this out, but there's been no red flags or any indication, whatsoever, that this person is a skis ball. And all of a sudden it slapped you in the face. Besides the fact that she hadn't been feeling very great, she was feeling, it was manifesting physically. But other than that, she didn't have any indication that this guy was a jerk. And I've been there in my way. I haven't been there. And I'm very grateful for that. But where you have so many other areas of your life that could be the source of your anxiety. So it's very easy to write off. So how do you say, like, oh, this is him for sure. Like, you know, I just got a new job by moving. Of course, I'm anxious. Yeah. Also, I'm glad that like she described blocking those memories, disassociating afterwards, almost locking out in some conversations. Yeah. And I know it's hard to understand. I have never experienced that. So we have to acknowledge that and just be like, I don't, I cannot speak to what she went through. And I also can't deny it at all. Because I think everyone handles it differently. Some people are like, you know, fight or flight or freeze. And some people are fight. Some people are flight. Some people are free. Some people are a different one on a different day. And it's not anybody's fault the way they respond. We're not wired to respond to this one. Yeah. And it's a to to forget or not to remember whatever is it's a trauma response. And I just, for example, I have have a little bit of a traumatic childhood. And I don't remember much of it. And so I'm learning more. about it as I get and my brain is allowing me to process those thoughts through therapy and everything. But I have totally disassociated from my childhood because of how traumatic it was for me. And I can only imagine someone like her going through this and I'm sure she was thinking about a future with this person like you're thinking of your whole life and then all of a sudden it's ripped out from under you. I could totally see why she disassociated from it. Oh my god. And then I'm glad you like use the or she's one of you said it seemed like they had like cheating kink. Yes, that's what she said that they had and I think that's a real thing too. Okay, so we are obviously sex positive here. The dating detectives and we are not kink shaming, but I will happily kink shame if you're kink hurts people. Yeah, like that is the line because there's no consent. So kink is a thing, right? But it's safe, sane and consensual. When we talk about BDSM or kink or anything like that, the the rule is safe, safe, sane and consensual, but this person was she was not consenting. So that takes away that part of the triangle that you need to have a like that takes that that takes that away. I would also argue the sane part is not there, but I guess that's right. No, it's true. And so you take away safe, sane and consensual and you no longer have a kink. Now you're just cheating. Like it's not okay. I've been thinking a lot about our episode with other Emily. You know, last week and the week before we got a lot of Emily's, but how we talked about the way that her parent and then her dogfish was able to shape her experience because she was so young and that experience. So say like, oh, this what is abuse, I can define as love to you. Yes. And I think sex is very much that way for young people. Sure. Where the first experience you have could be with someone older that tells you, oh, you're shaming me if you're saying my cheating kink is bad. You know what I mean? So it's like even though it seems kind of obvious at times, I think it's important to talk about how yeah, anybody that's doing anything safe, sane, consensual. Yeah. And I love how she talked about healing. She's open to yeah. Yeah. Healing happened when she maintained openness and kindness and desire to connect. Trust me, verify Google the wrap out of every single person. And I don't even care if they're linked in is right now. At this point, I imagine her going on a date and being like, if we're not going to your company holiday party and I'm right face to face with all of your co-workers, we're not doing it. Like I would be in the office delivering lunch. But good for her because I was thinking the whole time I'm like, man, I wish I was like her because if you hurt me, I'm going to be closed off. Like I'm like, well, I don't trust nobody ever again. Never just don't don't. And to this day, I refuse. Like I don't trust nothing to nobody. And I'm 42 years old, who's had some experiences. And I refuse. But she's very, she's very adamant about keeping her heart and her mind open. And there's something to be good for. Because it's not what are the chances that it happens again, which it could, obviously. But she's saying, no, I really still believe in this. And I think that's incredible. I love how you talked about how her trust in herself, he wrote it after and she validated that saying how hard it was to make big decisions afterwards. Well, because if you can't even trust yourself, what a shitty feeling that is to know that you, okay, so this guy ruined her trust, right? Sure, it's his fault. It's not her fault. But she thinks in her head now, now her head is like, God, I can't even trust myself to make these decisions. That's a horrible place to be in. And you're like, I can't even live my life. I can't even trust myself. That is a shitty feeling. I get it. And I think a lot of us have been there. And that's where that stupid, that feeling of stupidity comes in. Like how could we let ourselves feel that way? And of course, it's never our fault. But we do feel like that we take the blame. And it can hold us back. So the fact that she's just willing to stay open is just so incredible. I just start to learn from for sure. Absolutely. I mean, there's, this is a tough one. She did not to say that we never want to make it seem like, oh, she did everything right. So like, it's not that anybody in the past has ever done anything wrong. It's just that this guy really showed no signs. Unless I'm curious of anybody's been in a similar situation. I hope not. But are there parallels to your experience behavior that you recognized before all hell broke loose that you've seen before that we can learn from? I mean, I hate having to. But if you have had somebody that's been taken your credit card and spending it on seeking arrangements or similar financial fraud, sugar, baby, and just the funny, it's so funny how many sugar daddies are probably just deadbeat. Yeah. And to be fair, to be fair, nobody's kink shaming the whole sugar baby sugar daddy. I don't know. Shame sex work. Like sex work is nobody's shaming. I don't, whatever. I don't, what do you say safe, sane and consensual? Well, it has to be legal too. But you know what I mean? Like, I don't, I'm not going to shame anybody for it. Like, that's your life. Do whatever you got to do. Sex work is work. I don't care. But there's, there's a line that you draw and it's like people. Yeah. You, you, you know about this other person and you're not, how safe is this? How safe is this with STDs? How safe is this with maybe a physical position that now she's going to be in? What liabilities do we have if she finds out and she confronts him? Is he going to get violent? Like, there's way too many, there's way too much liability. It's scary. It's so scary. But nobody thinks about that. We, we will pass on any messages to Emily. If you have experienced something or a first story spoke to you or you just want to send support, there's a comment section on Spotify. I know wherever you're listening might have one, but we're always on social media at dating detectives podcast, TikTok, Instagram, Facebook, YouTube shorts. We've been posting more YouTube shorts. Thank you very much. I love that. I've been doing that. And, and if you have a story that you want to share with us, please be patient as we read them because we do get a lot, but we welcome your story. We would love to be an ear or a platform for you. Our email address is investigate at the dating detectives podcast dot com. And again, thank you so much for an incredible show in Chicago. We cannot wait to see all of you who are coming to Orlando and Tampa. I know there's going to be a couple that come to every single show because that we have some die hards and you guys are insane and we love that. We love you. And if you have a story in Orlando or Tampa and you're like down to come on stage and share it with us. Yes, you can send us and you know that address as well. Yeah, let's chat. If you've ever like needed to hear us in person, be like, what? That's crazy. It's not your family. Like, this is your chance. And thanks again to Emily. We will make sure to send your nice message. Our audience is so many. You guys always say the best message. So thank you. And as always, just trust your fan to listen. I hope that's in your head too. Love you. [Music]