The Sympathetic Nervous System: Fight or Flight, Hypervigilance & the Key to Real Change

[MUSIC PLAYING] Welcome to the ergonomic home, your Stasis Activation Podcast. 9 pound power. And I'm Ruth Laurence. We'll be unpacking what it looks like to activate your brain to holistically and in stress and trauma to facilitate homeostasis. Being free to experience wellness, body, mind, and atmosphere. Thank you for joining us. Let's get this conversation started. Well, we're here and we're talking about the brain again. Again. In this season, really, while we've been unpacking and focusing on the brain itself, and we've done many-- this is, I think, our fourth season in the AHA podcast. And I've really enjoyed having these conversations with you, Tom. Today, what we're going to be looking at is the sympathetic nervous system, specifically. I've talked about it before, but we're going to already think about the sympathetic nervous system and how it impacts change. And what we mean by change is, when we need to-- we all have these moments where we know we need to change something. We're seeing a pattern in our lives. And we're like, I need to change. We all have them in January, right? Well, we're like, here's the resolutions or whatever. But it happens from time to time in our lives. So we live our lives out. We know we see things. And we're like, I need to change that. But the sympathetic nervous system is an interesting-- we were talking-- let's talk about the name first, because I was saying to you, it doesn't feel very sympathetic when you're stuck in the sympathetic nervous system. But it's not less the meaning of the nervous. They really isn't sympathy. No, not that version of it. The sim is with, that's what sim means. And the PATH is emotions, feelings. So feeling with and the sympathetic nervous system definitely feels with what's happening around us. And within us. Yeah, so we were saying earlier that the question is not how do you feel, but what are you feeling? Are you feeling with? Yeah, so think about the-- just even think-- I would encourage listeners right now. Just think about your morning today. What have you engaged with in social media? What have you emotionally connected with? Yeah, today, if I went on my social media threats, I would see the threat of a bowler. Then a couple of weeks ago, it was the hunter virus. So I've engaged my sympathetic nervous system. It's engaging with to some level. And that is-- some people will engage with it, not much. Some people will fully engage with those things. But it's engaging with those big world stresses. These perceptions of threats are all around us. And then we have our own lives. Just like, you know, what am I doing in my career? And worrying about my kids or how much it's geared for me. Yeah, or do I care for stuff or-- Yeah, absolutely. Yes. But I think to recognize that we do feel with things is key. And we get to choose what we feel with. Yes, the sympathy and how we respond to it. So the sympathetic nervous system is part of homeostasis. We're not going to survive and thrive if we can't sense threats to surviving or thriving. That's inherently protective. We are literally neurologically and biologically wired to detect threats to well-being. That way, as an organism, we can survive when we encounter a threat. Because the brain is wired to protect us from threats. Yeah, and we've talked about this before. How the sympathetic nervous system, especially in today's cultural movement-- well, we're talking a lot about fight and flight. Anyone who's into any level of neuroscience is talking about a lot. And it gets a bad rap. But because it's like, oh, it's seen as the enemy. And because of fight and flight and all of that stuff. But actually, it's not. Let's just remember, it really is an amazing part of our maker that helps us survive. And eventually, if it works with the parasympathetic nervous system in a good conversation, then it helps us thrive. So yes, like you say, we don't want to be defenseless. But the problem is not the sympathetic nervous system. The problem is the level of perceived threat. Yes. And how we experience it. Yeah. And it's like, is there a tiger around every corner? Because I was needed to sing the other day, Tom. I had a balance that I fell a few weeks ago. It's directly-- it's a fraction of my T12, which is where is a hub of where the sympathetic nervous system is. So I know from that that my sympathetic nervous system is heightened, has been heightened, as I've been healing, and rightly so, and then understandably so. But I've noticed that, like I was walking around the block the other day, and I walked past a fence that I walked past every time I go on a walk. And they've got two dogs, and they ran, and they barked at me, and they do this all the time. But mine-- I jumped. This time? Yes. I jumped, because I was hyper-aware of something. I was like my sympathetic nervous system was so hyper-vigilant that it was scanning for threat. Now, I only say that as a way of thinking about as individuals that are living in an incredibly complex world right now, we have so much knowledge about things we-- years ago, we never even know about these things. And how hyper-vigilant are we in terms of that sympathetic nervous system? And are we kind of jumping at every little thing that appears to be a threat? But actually, if we took a moment and thought about it, it really isn't a threat to well-being. And that's when the sympathetic nervous system gets dark. And that's the problem. Yes, it's where the sympathetic identifies a sense to proceed threat to well-being. And it alerts us to that. What do we do with the alert? That's where we can either become overly focused on having been alerted to a sense to proceed threat to well-being or allow transition to the parasympathetic, which is relax, rest, recover, and even digest. If we don't allow the transition to occur from sympathetic to parasympathetic, then we're artificially continuing to feed the sympathetic nervous system. Did that-- Yeah, absolutely. And that's when it becomes a problem. Yeah, absolutely. Because then that's why it gets a bad reputation. But it's not the sympathetic nervous system itself. It's what we are doing to it. It's like our minds interaction with the sympathetic nervous system. So when our mind gets involved and we're like, there's a alert has been sent. And then it's depending on our perceptions. And one person's perception will be entirely different from another person. They say that about stress and trauma. They say something can happen to one person that will completely traumatize them. And it can happen to another person and it doesn't do that. So that's all about our history and our personality and the way we perceive things. So we all have an individual version of that. But when we kind of go, oh, me or my, what is happening? Then we kind of engage with our sympathetic nervous system and actually it gets complicated. Yes. So the sympathetic and the phraseology that goes with the sympathetic nervous system. Again, for those who may not have heard the episode, Dr. Walter Cannon mid 1920s created the phrase the term homeostasis. A stable study state operates within a range wants to maintain that. If it gets out of that stable study range of neurobiological functioning can restore it to that, the sympathetic nervous system in 1915-ish Walter Cannon created the phrase flight or fight as a protective function necessary for homeostasis to occur. Because we're not going to remain in that stable study state if we don't address threats to surviving. So that's where in 1915-ish he created the phrase flight or fight, which is very memorable and very helpful, I think it's more helpful to see flight as an effort to avoid a sense to proceed threat to well-being. Because if we don't, for instance, a rattlesnake, I should avoid that. And the natural anxiety and stress that is provoked is functionally causing me to back away from a threat. Because if I just keep walking along, the rattlesnake bites my leg, I get poisoned, I may not survive at all. I should have that stress and anxiety reaction to it. And if that rattlesnake then comes toward me, then I should fight or manage the threat again, protectively. It's when it stops being protective that we ourselves are compromising that natural protective function. Here's how we do that, because the protective function of anxiety, uh-oh, we turn into, oh no, we obsess about it. Or the protective function of I'm feeling stressed. So a healthy response would be, relax, recover, rest. But if I don't do that and I just keep feeding the stress, how common is it for human beings to keep feeding stress? And then, like, literally, people get exhausted. Yes. The point is that the sympathetic is a momentarily kind of engaging with this perceived threat, right? You know, it's not just, it's not meant to be going on for 24 hours. It's like a, a quick spike and- It's a protective alert. Do something about that. Do something about it and then go back to rest, relax. Don't continue to feed it. Yeah. They're people who thrive on stress. Well, okay, good luck with that, because eventually you're going to be stressed out and burned out. And how is that helpful for thriving? It's not. So the thing that we wanted to kind of engage with in this episode, though, is not just because we've, I think we've covered that before, sympathetic fights, we've gone right into details of fight flights. And like you say, that avoidance, which is the flight. But it's like, well, when you're in that kind of stuckness, when you're in that constant, you're constantly feeding the stress. You haven't moved. You've stopped. It impacts change. Share about that. It actually prevents change. So we're not able to change when we're so we're like literally stuck in survival mode. Right. Because when we can't avoid the sensor perceived threat 12 being, then it flips into the fight, which is an effort to manage the sensor perceived threat 12 being. And that can be some form of anger or depression. With depression, I'm trying. I'm trying. I'm trying. Or I'm trying. And I'm trying. And I'm just. And I'm just. That often masquerades as change. We feel like we're managing and we're changing something. But it's not a beneficial change. Is there change that happens when somebody gets into the fight response and gets really angry? Things change. Yeah. Is that beneficial? No. Or somebody gets into the depression change. Does that evoke change? Sure does. It may evoke simply. Oh, poor thing. Oh, here, let me help you. But is it beneficial change? No. The point here is that the change, the idea of change, something should change you. That's not change. That's not beneficial change because there isn't an adapting to the situation. There is an effort to manage the situation. Everything is not change, adapting is change, but adaptation is consistent with the parasympathetic. So what we're saying is that while we're, if you, if we get stuck in fight and flight, you can appear to try and be like, well, I'm changing, but actually if you're in the sympathetic nervous system, then really that isn't change, that's like a, it's, you know, you're trying to manage something is working out of those mechanisms that actually aren't real change. So it prevents us from, you know, maybe we kind of stay surviving in that place, but it prevents us from. Or we may even be compromising surviving. Yes. And often people do. And people are really, I think there's same, I mean, there's so many statistics out there of like people going to the doctors and all of the staff is, you know, half of the physical complaints that people have are stress and anxiety. It's actually about 80% - 80% 80, yeah. So, you know, and that is a compromised state, it's like I've been in these places where I feel like, oh my gosh, my nervous system feels frazzled. This doesn't feel good, this feels like I'm on the edge. This is not, and he's a walk myself back from the edge and somehow get into that parasympathetic. So real change, what we're saying is real change, healthy, beneficial change, really is in the parasympathetic nervous system. Yes. Again, it's like the, the needs to get unstuck is not just about making sure you're not compromised. It's not just about making sure you don't just stay in that survived place. It's also about, if you really want to change as a person, beneficially, which we all do, that's our growth, right? That's our adaptability in these kind of complex. We need to change more when our world is a bit more crazy or chaotic. That's the actual time that we do need to adapt and change in a beneficial way so that we can figure out how to stay healthy in that. But if we're stuck in sympathetic, we are not going to be able to do that. So that's this real need for us to understand how we get unstuck, how we enter into that parasympathetic and make sure that flow between sympathetic and parasympathetic is working well. Yes. And the very particular phraseology I use and the order I say it in is intentional. If the parasympathetic, it's relaxed. The sympathetic kicked in threat, well-being, threat to well-being, relax. Okay. Yes, there is a current threat. I don't have to stay in that threat and mindset. And if I lean into relax, that can be taking a breath quite literally. If your sympathetic kicks in, flight or fight, avoid, manage, stress, anxiety, depression, anger. really helpful thing to do is just say. Stop and literally breathe. I mean, literally breathe. So often people who are in their stuck in their sympathetic, they literally are not breathing. I mean, literally. Just. (sighing) (sighing) And through the nose. (sighing) Oh, through the mouth, if you are breathing, you are sending a message to your body. It's okay. Physiological. You're also sending a message to your mind. I'm breathing. I can breathe. It's okay. - Yeah. (sighing) - So I can relax because I am relaxing by doing that. It's just a very simple thing. - Mm-hmm. - There's many, many things that we can do that way. - I mean, I recently, like with my fool, and I was sad, you know, I've been experiencing kind of like this breathing a little bit. Walking around, it's all this. And I've had to literally, I'm walking around. And I'm like, oh my gosh, like my whole body is stiff. And I literally have to go stop. - Yes. - And I tell, but I say it out loud. I'm like, you're safe, relax. And then I can, I literally feel my muscles relax. It's okay. I understand why you would go out right now because of what happened, but actually right now is not bad. Like we are okay, we're good. So I'm re, it's almost like you can coach your body, your mind. - You do. - And by speaking out, or like you said, the breath is, the breath work we know is so powerful. Splash with some gold water on sometimes does it too? Just. - It can be grounded. - Yeah. - Just touching fabric. - Or yeah, touching, yeah. - Because the genes that connects you to the reality of things. Then with the relax, then allow for recovery. Because that happened, something triggered that threat response. You may know what it was. You may not even know what it was. You may know why it was or not know why it was. But you can allow yourself a moment to recover. You don't have to keep going. You say stop. Relax and then allow for recovery. And if you think about it, and I invite the listeners to think about it, there are things that you have experienced where you feel refreshed. Things that allow you to recover. It might be taking a brief walk. It might be whatever. So I'll try this with you Ruth, okay? So just stop for a moment and ask your brain. What are things that help me recover and then listen? A bet thing started popping into your head. - Yeah, immediately I just saw myself. I love going to, I live in full Collins. Not far from Horstie's reservoir, but just like the lapping of water, and also the sound, I think of water or mean by lake being by river, that is incredibly refreshing to me. And it grounds me in a way that's more than normal, I would say. - Yep, and you just naturally use the word ground. And that's the parasympathetic. - Yeah. - Your brain said that. Your brain informed you of the ask, and your brain will respond. When we intentionally relax, then we can follow that up with being intentional about allowing for recover. And frequently, what may be in order is rest, or rest, take a break, whatever allows you to rest. Because all of these things are not only functions of the parasympathetic, they reinforce the parasympathetic, which is all about homeostasis, restoring, or maintaining that stable steady state when it's bent disrupted, and digest, allow for something, consuming something, that's beneficial or nutritious, or hydrating. All of these things signal the body, or okay. - Okay, because change is a constant. No change is called that, 'cause I like to joke. Oh, there's no change, wait a minute, there's always change. We can either adapt to that, or be held hostage to it. We get to choose. So choose. - Yeah, I think this is helpful. I think what we're saying is that, you know, it's completely understandable in the days that we are living in, to not assume that the sympathetic and the parasympathetic are just working as they were designed. - Exactly, yeah. - So, you know, maybe there was a sign in history where that was more so, and maybe it was just a few people that just couldn't get that working. These days, a lot of, it's actually be more unusual for it to be working, as it was designed to. So we do need to be intentional with our nervous system. - And I think one of the things that has changed is just how much information is available to us. - Yeah. - Not to mention the intentional manipulation of all that, for commercial purposes. - Yeah. - Triggering that sense of need, I've got to have this. And if I don't have this, it's marketing 101, create a sense of scarcity and need. And then people respond to that. - Yeah, and then there's, you know, we are living in turbulent, political climate. And we've, we've had COVID, you know, I think I'm sure the average person would say the last five, six years have been particularly heightened in terms of stress and anxiety. And I think that those people across political spectrums, actually, is not just one group. I think we're all feeling it. We've got things like climate change on the horizon. Well, it's like we are in the flux of change. We've got AI, sort of AI is happening and happening at us quite fast. And that can some people find that. A good thing, some people find that really stressful. There's a lot of a known about our future. We are changing, the world is changing quickly. And we are not at peace with one another, a lot of the time. And so what that does to the average person, no matter who you are, is going to be incredibly impactful. If we're not intentional, we will feel with those things. And so that's our starting point right now. So I think it is, and then on top of that, what we know is that if we want to change for the better, if we want to grow, you know, Tom, you are a wellness coach as well as a therapist. And you know, part of what you do is like help people on this path of wellness and wellness, there's growth, there's change, there's being a good point. That's the whole point, yeah. And so if we're going to do that, we cannot be stuck in a fighting flight. And so the odds are that unless we do something and unless we're intentional, unless we think through how we can engage with the parasympathetic and coach ourselves to operate within what was originally designed, then it's going to be hard for us to change for the better. And so I think the word here is intentional as key. - Yep, and the words that I was wanting to get into this part, the words I associate with the sympathetic and parasympathetic are reactive and proactive. - Yeah. - The sympathetic flight fight Stress, anxiety, depression, anger is all about being reactive. The parasympathetic relax, recover, rest, digest is all about being proactive. Recover is not passive. Recover is very proactive. I'm doing things to recover. There is agency in that. There is empowerment in that. If I'm not doing those things proactively, I leave myself in a state to experience the likelihood of reactive and that increasing. So if you just stop for a minute and think, okay, given my life circumstances and all the stuff that's going on and I'm experiencing, am I being reactive or proactive and you know, if you're just honest with yourself, I'm being reactive. Okay, well, you're in the sympathetic. Yeah, it's a sign that that's where you are at. Right. And we know that when you're there and you're there too long, it will either compromise your system, it will or it will keep you in survival mode and now we know that you're unable to really do some of that good, beneficial change in that space. So be intentional about being proactive, aware that my brain is going to warn me reactively sympathetically to some stir perceived threat to all being do something about that. Which is, it's just the nature of change, whether it's just change or is it change that I'm proactively pursuing beneficially. Now I'm in the parasympathetic and by doing that, my brain responds to that. It's going, yeah, let's be parasympathetic. Yeah, and I think, you know, the more we can do daily to like with those things, stop, breathe, say things like that and drown yourself, the more and there's, you know, like you said, there's lots and lots of ways available to us. The more we can practice that, you know, the imbalance, there's an imbalance isn't there and it's, you know, sympathetic's high. So the work is for the parasympathetic to say, no, we can get there. We can be proactive. We can, we don't have to stay in this place of sympathetic, let's take a moment. Every day, if you need to multiple times, and grant yourself, like, get yourself into that parasympathetic, allow your mind and your body to know that things are okay. And it's follow those four, relax, intentionally, proactively, relax, intentionally, proactively recover, adapt to the situation, recover from the sympathetic assault threat since perceived made up real doesn't matter, relax, recover, allow for rest, be proactive about resting. That is now rewarded and reinforced in modern society, rest when how can't, no, we can't just choose to rest, relax, recover, rest, and digest. And the likelihood is if you do the relax, recover, and rest, the digestible function a lot better. Yeah. If you don't relax, recover, and rest, what's your digestion like? Not great. Reach for the whatever. No, we get to proactively support the parasympathetic, it's there for homeostasis. If we are being reactive, stop, stop. So the reactiveness is a real sign, that's helpful. Yep. No, I'm reacting. Okay. I know where I'm at. Yep. I get to choose the other. Great, great conversation, Tom, thank you, really good stuff, relevant for what we're living through in our days. And I'm looking forward to the next conversation with you. You've been listening to the autonomic homeostasis activation podcast. Join us next time as we continue in our conversations with Tom. If you're interested in pursuing your own wellness journey, please check out our website on autonomichealing.org. You can also reach out to Tom at innerworkings.org.