Speaker 1What happens when a Telegraph journalist on the right, me.
Speaker 2Takes on a Secretary of State on the left, me.
Speaker 1We clash over Brexit, Russian interference and Welsh sheep.
Speaker 2And I prove that Camilla is a dirty fibber.
Speaker 1I'm happy to be magnanimous. You're not looking it. What about Ed Davey? Want to jump into bed with him?
Speaker 2Politically speaking. You're literally fibbing.
Speaker 1Say something nice about Nigel Farage. Sir Chris Bryant, MP, Northern Ireland Secretary. You're looking at me through narrow eyes.
Speaker 2Well, because you started with a sir. Like it was a kind of sneer, sneer.
Speaker 1I didn't mean it like that. But it came across that
Speaker 2way, Cruella, over there in your polka dots.
Speaker 1Just to say that you're saying I look a little bit like I'm in 101 Dalmatians and I'm saying I'm Cruella then, in your mind. Are we the best of frenemies? You once pitched that we should do a. A two-handed show.
Speaker 2Yes, I think your whole career has depended on me.
Speaker 1Do you why?
Speaker 2Basically. Well, because I punted your name to lots of people. Did you? I thought you were very reasonable, calm, collected, charming, beautiful.
Speaker 1Oh. All these things. Chris, you're flattering me before we have this.
Speaker 2Can we finish now?
Speaker 1Yeah, exactly. Is this a
Speaker 2showdown or a hoedown?
Speaker 1Both. And if you want to do some kind of cowboy act.
Speaker 2From Oklahoma? Possibly.
Speaker 1You don't want me singing, though. I tried that on a previous podcast. And we lost a great deal of our audience, unfortunately.
Speaker 2Well, I'm just a girl who can't say no. I'm in a terrible fix. I always say, come on, let's go, just when we ought to say nix.
Speaker 1I won't start saying, oh, what a beautiful morning. This is called the Sunday Showdown. And it's where left and right have a little bit of a barney, find moments of agreeable disagreement. And let's start with Brexit.
Speaker 2Oh, just. I
Speaker 1tell you what. Just a simple debate on the table now, Brexit.
Speaker 2Yes, it's gone very, very well. Well. What you're going to say, is it?
Speaker 1You should be saying that, because haven't all of your chancellors and prime ministers, and let's be honest, there's been two of each, even though you were only elected in 2024, haven't they all been saying how well Britain has been doing compared to the rest of the G7? I think at times we've heard from Rachel Reeves and Keir Starmer and John Healey and Andy Burnham saying that we've got the fastest growth in the Eurozone and beyond. Therefore, how can you also say. Well, you can't say it. Brexit's been an economic disaster. You can't say that.
Speaker 2Well, interestingly enough, the highest rate of economic growth in the United Kingdom is in Northern Ireland, where I am the Secretary of State for North. Where I am the Secretary of State.
Speaker 1And Brexit was meant to be a disaster there.
Speaker 2Well, and it has been problematic. Lots of unionists have made the point that there are difficulties in getting things for people to be able to export things from Great Britain to Northern Ireland. You wouldn't even think that that would have to be thought of as an export. But we have a great advantage, which is that we lie into markets. We've got dual market access into the European Union and into the UK. Great. So. So that's something I really want to capitalise on.
Speaker 1Nothing to change there. Then why is Andy Burnham wanting to re-litigate this when it could jeopardise the so-called Windsor Framework, all of that delicate diplomacy that went on to get Stormont back together?
Speaker 2Well, because it's all a bit of a mess, is the truth. In particular, as it relates to Northern Ireland. And you'll remember, of course, that Northern Ireland voted to remain in the European Union. I do remember that. And the kind of problem that we have is that obviously there's enormous costs for farmers and. and agri-food producers and so on and crossing the border. And if we were able to get to a situation where we had a really good SPS deal, which I hope will come later on this year in the summit at the end of November, then that would solve a lot of these problems. One fact you probably won't know, but you will want to know for Mother's Day next year. OK. is that 85% of all the flowers that we sell in the UK come either from or through the Netherlands. Yes. And the problems getting them in and the additional costs that there are for. for importers into the UK are significant. There's some categories, in particular Solidago and some others, which are really difficult to get in. All of that is going to be much easier when we get this sorted. And that will make it easier for.
Speaker 1When you say when we get this sorted, do you mean when we realign, rejoin?
Speaker 2No, no, when we do the deal in November. on November the 20th, the SPS deal, which is about food and agriculture and those kind of things.
Speaker 1So let me just get this right. The Northern Ireland economy is booming in comparison to the rest of the UK. You're bringing flowers in for Mother's Day and you've got a deal that you're signing that will make things better. Well, I hope. Why on earth does Burnham need close reliance with the EU?
Speaker 2Well, the first bit that we've got to get right is we've got to get that bit right on the 23rd of November. So that deal, which includes, you know, food and so on. We've also got to get engaged in the electricity trading scheme because that would save. We reckon something in the region of 20% on energy costs in Northern Ireland. OK, but you're avoiding the question.
Speaker 1We don't need to rejoin, do we? You're getting on all right in Northern Ireland.
Speaker 2I haven't said anything about it. Do you want to rejoin? Well, I always thought that it was a bit of a problem leaving in the first place. And you're probably. You're looking in your papers now. You're going to find all the quotes where I say, I was a Remainer. I remain a Remainer. I will remain a Remainer until my dying day.
Speaker 1Said as Minister of State for Trade. Yep. Brexit, not in my name. Never, never, never. Quite Maggie that, by the way.
Speaker 2Well, no, I think it's more Ian Paisley, isn't it?
Speaker 1Made in Europe will have to include the UK. I'm merely making the point, and this is, interesting when it comes to Andy Burnham, he says that every piece of government policy must pass his so-called make-a-field test. Northern Ireland voted Remain, make-a-field, overwhelmingly voted Leave.
Speaker 2Rhonda and Ogmore also voted Leave, I know.
Speaker 1But look. Why is he putting this back on the table when you yourself are admitting here that actually against the odds, despite Brexit, in adverted commas, Northern Ireland's doing all right?
Speaker 2Well, I think we need to capitalise on the situation that we've got at the moment and we need to make it better, which is why we need to get the better deal in November. But there's a bigger issue here. So, a classic instance is that the European Union at the moment is thinking about this Made in Europe campaign, or the French call it la préférence européenne, which basically means that there will.
Speaker 1That is a great accent.
Speaker 2Thank you. There will be subsidies for European companies, but only those within the European Union. Now, the real danger for us is that lots of our supply chains, for cars, for instance, are across the whole of the. are UK and European Union and the danger is that we get completely carved out of this. That could be absolutely existential for the British car industry. So, we need to make sure that our relationship with the European Union is tight enough that they don't exclude us from these kind of arguments. We've had the same around steel. So, the UK steel production is not the problem for the EU steel production. The problem lies elsewhere in China and other countries where it's heavily subsidised and so on. But the EU has imposed tariffs on us. We've imposed tariffs on them. There's a point at which you can't want to go, well, wouldn't it just be better if we had a steel alliance and we didn't have tariffs on each other?
Speaker 1So, getting on with the EU so that European nations don't completely subject to us to a punishment beating post-Brexit more than 10 years on isn't quite the same as rejoin. I'm trying to pin down. I'm not arguing for rejoin. Yeah, so why is Andy Vernon? Andy isn't. Well, hang on a minute. He's said several times that he wants rejoin to be on the manifesto, that he's talked about. Where has he said this? He's said this in the House of Commons, I believe, a couple of weeks ago.
Speaker 2You believe? Yes.
Speaker 1Camilla? Let me check my notes. OK, let's have a look exactly what Andy Vernon has said on rejoin. Certainly, it's talked about rejoin being on the manifesto. Certainly, there's been a discussion about a second referendum. We had Emily Thornberry saying, oh, actually, why do we even need a second referendum? At the end of the day, if rejoin is in the next Labour manifesto, the electorate can decide whether they want to support it or not, which might strike some people, presumably those, you know, majority of people that voted for Leave, might strike them as rather illiberal
Speaker 2and anti-democratic. Well, two things I'd say. First of all, the manifesto is for something in 2029, not for now. But the problem is now. What are we going to do now to make sure that our relationship with Europe is strong so that we have strong supply chains across Europe and our advanced manufacturing can really flourish in the UK because quite often we rely on imports and exports, quite often bits and pieces of cars or other pieces of advanced manufacturing go in and out across the border and we need to be able to do that in an easy way. We don't want unnecessary paperwork. We don't want unnecessary costs. So we need to tackle all of those issues as much as we possibly can so as to secure our position in a fairly fractured world trade market.
Speaker 1OK. The other reason why people think he is edging towards some kind of rejoin campaign. So I think the precise wording was that it would be possible to have rejoined the EU in the next two years. manifesto under his leadership. The other kind of indicator is this sowing the seed about Russian interference in the Brexit vote. And he obviously said that to a rival podcast. We don't need to mention the name here.
Speaker 2What is his name?
Speaker 1I can't remember actually. It's presented by some Labour has been You're literally fibbing.
Speaker 2and some Tory guy. You are completely
Speaker 1I remember the Tory guy. What's he called? He was once the prisons minister. I remember interviewing him at HMP somewhere where he leaned back Rory Stewart. We've just got to fix the windows. And I thought, is this really the best you can do?
Speaker 2Can I tell you a Rory Stewart story? Please do. In his book. Yes. His much loved book by many people. He says that
Speaker 1Not least Rory Stewart.
Speaker 2He was having a terrible time as prisons minister because everybody was cross with him until he suddenly came up with the idea of a piece of legislation which would mean that an assault on a worker on a prison guard would be an additional offence. I texted him and said Rory, would this be my private member's bill that you opposed that you filed? finally ended up caving into and he said yes oh
Speaker 1magpie rory stewart in adopting left-wing policy
Speaker 2shock well well i'm not sure that it's left-wing i was simply saying that attacks on our emergency workers i came top of the private members ballot so when we were in opposition didn't think i'd get anything through because we you know there weren't very many labour mps at the time and i balloted my local constituency and said what what should i do as my private members bill i gave them various suggestions and top of the list was a new offence of an assault on an emergency worker so police officers yes uh fire officers and it was heavily
Speaker 1championed by nick ferrari at lbc where indeed once going to perhaps host a show together at some point in the distant which is why nick
Speaker 2can't bring himself to hate me
Speaker 1no i can't bring myself to hate you and also hate is not a it's not a progressive word it's not a
Speaker 2word hang on progressive
Speaker 1well um we can be progressive in different ideological directions uh chris bryan back to russian interference and now i know you're going to be a stickler about the direct quote the prime minister told the podcast that upon arriving at number 10 he was asked about possible russian interference in the 2016 vote adding i've had the clear answer that yes there was i think we've been too much on the back foot and that actually we haven't informed people sufficiently about the extent to which people are asking to disrupt seeking to disrupt the political process from overseas he added now head of mi5 ken mccullum has said no this isn't the case well the security minister has said that's
Speaker 2not quite what ken mccallum said at all foreign ministers
Speaker 1back down no no no no
Speaker 2no no no and even
Speaker 1the prime minister's backtracked a little
Speaker 2no no that's not true i i think that even theresa may said that there had been uh russian attempts at interfering in the previous elections mccullum
Speaker 1who says there is a critical distinction between interference attempted and outcomes swayed i agree with that constantly dwelling on moscow's risks playing into Kremlin hands, making Russian trolls look 10 foot tall. Luke Pollard, the defence minister, indicated that the government plans to publish future evidence of Russian interference. OK, fine. So it's just interesting that Andy Burnham said that, then backtracked, then appeared at PMQs today. We were recording this on Wednesday to slightly double down. When his own foreign and security ministers have said no, Ken McCullough has gone, I'm not sure there's clear evidence. And by the way, this is a man who is sort of doffing a metaphorical flat cap to the populace. He's a man of the people. He's a people's PM. And he's basically saying that if you voted for Leave, it's because a Russian bot told you so.
Speaker 2Except he didn't say that.
Speaker 1Well, that's my inference.
Speaker 2Ah, it's your inference.
Speaker 1Well, what do you think he's saying? He's
Speaker 2saying, as I have said in the past, and Theresa May said previously and others have said, that. That the Russians have obviously been interested in our politics. They've been interested in the politics of many countries across Europe in recent years and often tried to interfere in a variety of different ways. In some cases in European countries, they were actually bribing officials. And I think in Macedonia, I think people ended up being sent to prison and so on. And so it's pretty obvious to me that the Russians have wanted to interfere in the British system, whether they've been successful or not. I'm not arguing that. I think the British people are perfectly bright enough to be able to work things out. But it is true that one of the things that I remember seeing in particular in the Catalonian independence referendum was there was a lot of misinformation, which had clearly been amplified. So there was division. And it had been amplified by Russian bots and stuff on social media. I think that that's pretty incontrovertible.
Speaker 1I mean, they decided perhaps many years ago before even the invention of the internet. That they wanted to be "sovereigntists" rather than "globalists", to quote Lord Glassman.
Speaker 2I don't think there's a single person in the world there who sat down and went, "I want to be a "sovereigntist" rather than a.
Speaker 1Well, they might not have expressed it in that language, Chris Bryant, but. No, so I think that a lot of people weren't. What people in rural Wales who voted for Brexit might not even be on platforms like X and other social media channels to be influenced by Russians.
Speaker 2Well, no, no. I mean, I broadly agree with you, except insofar as I know that what happened to my social media was there's a great deal of amplifying stuff about me, and the Commons authorities pointed some of that back to Russia. But look, I mean, I don't think anybody's saying that this invalidated the referendum result. I mean, what I think has invalidated the Brexit project is that we've lost out economically as a country because of Brexit, and it's proved far stickier. It hasn't solved the problems that I think people thought it would, for instance, around migration. If anything, quite the reverse.
Speaker 1Okay. But how can you square the circle that is on one hand, the Labour government insisting that we've had the fastest growth in the Eurozone and the G7, and on the other saying Brexit's damaged us economically? And by the way, throw in a side order, throw in a bit of sauerkraut in the shape of the German economy having tanked since Brexit, and it's remained in
Speaker 2the block. Look, well, these two things are not necessarily causal. Just because they correlate doesn't mean that they're necessarily causal. All the evidence that I've seen from every economist pretty much that is independent has suggested that the knock to the British economy, the additional economic boost that we would have on top of what we've achieved would be in the tens of billions of pounds every year. And that, I think somebody has referred to a 6% knock to GDP.
Speaker 1Okay. That figure has been discredited and disagreed with by others. Disagreed with. Just that central point. How come the German economy tanked despite Brexit, and how come we have the highest growth in the G7, again, despite Brexit?
Speaker 2Whereas Spanish economy, I think, has had one of the fastest growths in Europe, and it's a member of the European Union. No, but just on the British issue, there's an oxymoron at play. So my point is that I don't think just membership of the European Union is the single, it's not the single determinant of what happens to your economy. Lots of other things happen as well. Well, why is
Speaker 1the prime minister blaming Brexit on what's happened to the economy?
Speaker 2Well, because some things, I think, have given undoubted problems. Yeah. To the UK economy. So if you want to export, we in the UK, I think it's one in 10 companies in the UK export. In France, it's something like three out of 10 companies, no, no, two out of 10. And in Germany, it's something like three out of 10. Exporting is good for you. It will be better if we had more companies in the UK that were able to export. The problems that we have because we're outside the European Union, the single biggest market, are quite significant. I knew that there have been advantages. I was the trade minister. We were trying to, we signed a good deal with India and then the EU signed a deal with India. We signed a good deal with the Gulf. I was intimately involved in that. The EU hasn't managed to do that. So there are gives and takes. But some of the deals that were signed under the previous government, for instance, Australia and New Zealand, I mean, farmers in Wales said, hang on, you've just destroyed Welsh farming.
Speaker 1Well, has Welsh farming been destroyed?
Speaker 2It's had a very tough time in particular for sheep and sheep farmers. And there are lots of people who argue that the only way that we can solve some of the problems that we have for the whole of our agriculture in the UK is sorting out, as we want to do on the 20th of November, our SPS deal with the rest of Europe.
Speaker 1Sure. But when it comes to British sheep, so to speak, and I vividly have. Welsh sheep. Welsh sheep specifically. I mean, I vividly have Barry Gardner. I mean, I have Barry Gardner. I mean, I vividly have Barry Gardner in my ear from a previous meeting in the back of a taxi on the way back from a Question Time appearance together, where he said that if Brexit happened, there wouldn't be a sheep left in the fields of, I think he said England, but let's just include Wales, which I thought was a bit too much of project fear. It was a bit bah, humbug, if you don't mind me saying, Chris.
Speaker 2That is just about the worst. In my office, that would be called a dad joke. Fair enough. That'd be a terrible dad joke, which is probably. The point is, but wasn't
Speaker 1there a problem with Welsh sheep farmers as soon as we signed ages ago, that deal on New Zealand lamb, which had nothing to do with Brexit? Yes, that's one.
Speaker 2No, no, it did, because we. We were having New Zealand lamb into the country
Speaker 1well before Brexit.
Speaker 2No, but the deal that was struck by the Conservative government, which you may recall, the person who struck that deal then three months later said it was a terrible, terrible deal, and he knew it from the beginning. Who was it? Who was that? I can't remember. He was the Agriculture Minister who ended up leaving the government. And, and he said it was a terrible deal.
Speaker 1But Barry wasn't quite right, was he?
Speaker 2Well, I think he was making a slightly different point at a different time, because the point is that the. After we left the EU, we were able to sign new trade deals with other parts of the world, and one of them was New Zealand and Australia. And my reading of what happened then was the Tory government was so desperate to sign a new deal, they just signed any old deal that came on the table. And it was actually. I mean, I know my Australian counterpart when I was Trade Minister used to say, "It's a really good deal for Australia." Yes. And I used to say, "Yes, well. " All right. And it has provided problems for the UK.
Speaker 1I mean, we know the National Farming Union was heavily in favour of Remain because of EU subsidies and all the rest of it. Answer me this. What's been worse for the farming community of the UK, Brexit or Labour's now reversed farms tax? I mean, that was a disastrous
Speaker 2idea. The single most important thing we could do for farmers in Northern Ireland at the moment is sort out our SPS deal so that they don't have the additional.
Speaker 1And we look forward to November. But let's be honest, the farmers tax was an unmitigated disaster. We saw tractors in Parliament Square. We had And goodness me, one or two suicides, we had mass protests. This idea of kind of taxing a degree of aspiration and thinking that you were catching James Dyson in some kind of dishonest landowning, you know, capitalist hell, ended up trapping the farmers who are literally providing Britain with its bread basket.
Speaker 2I hate to tell you this, Camilla, but this is an area on which I'm not a massive expert.
Speaker 1Sorry. Well, to be fair, there was also a flip-flop on it and it's been changed. So it's always cruel,
Speaker 2isn't it, when it's a flip-flop or somebody's listened to Camilla and agreed with her. Couldn't you just be gracious, magnanimous?
Speaker 1Do you know what? At the time I said this was good that they were reversed. Right, let's just leave it there then. All right, I'm happy to be magnanimous. Well, no, I think it was good. You're not looking happy or magnanimous. No, no, no, I did think it was a very good idea that that was reversed. I don't know who now represents the farming community of the UK. Obviously, Jeremy Clarkson appeared at the Conservative Party conference, not at Labour's. Would you want Jeremy Clarkson at a Labour Party conference?
Speaker 2He was a Remainer, wasn't he?
Speaker 1Ah, so you see, once a Remainer, always a Remainer.
Speaker 2We know our friends.
Speaker 1On the macro issue of Brexit, do you really think there's an appetite in the UK?
Speaker 2Sorry, to go back, but there's one other thing that I felt very, very strongly always about. That in relation to Brexit was, I understand all these economic points, but there's another big point, which is, and I understand why Boris Johnson said this. He said that he thought, he said in a select committee at one point, he said he never, we long past the days when we would see tanks rolling across Europe. And then, of course, the second invasion of Ukraine happened. The first happened in 2014. I think we should have dealt with it much more robustly then. I agree. And then we might not have had in 2022.
Speaker 1But you must agree with Boris on that, by the way, because he was robust on Ukraine, right? I know you two were adversaries when he was prime minister, massively so. I mean, you were desperately trying to bring him down.
Speaker 2I thought he was a terrible prime minister, yes.
Speaker 1He was a good leader on Ukraine, though.
Speaker 2Yeah, yeah. I've always, I've said this repeatedly. I mean, I think when he was foreign secretary, he should have done more. Yes. But anyway, he was on Ukraine. He was absolutely right to stand firm with Ukraine. And I'm really glad that he's calling out those who aren't standing firmly with Ukraine at the moment. That is all very important. But the point I was going to make was that right at the beginning. Once Brexit, the referendum had happened, Theresa May became prime minister. And the first thing she said was that she wanted a defence and security deal with the European Union because, well, for obvious reasons. And actually, that's the bit that I think that has been missing for quite some time. And it's now a really important part of how we are thrust together with the European Union, because we know that. It's a bit like Stanley Baldwin, I think, in 1936 maybe said, I'll get this quote wrong. But he said in the House. Our border isn't at Dover now. Our border is somewhere in Poland. And actually, our border now, of course, there is a border at Dover, but there's also a border of our security, which is in Kiev.
Speaker 1Yes. Or our border is any NATO border, if we're going to suggest that there's a strength in numbers argument. And I do concur with you on that. Just because you were mentioning, you know, alliances with Putin and stuff, of course, Trump is now foremost in my mind. That was the other thing about the Russian interference suggestion by Andy Burnham. Slightly Trumpian, isn't it? To start entertaining the idea of an election being in some way stolen.
Speaker 2Well, but Andy never said that it was stolen. I know, but he's flirting in that territory.
Speaker 1If a righty had said that, people
Speaker 2would be going, you're a
Speaker 1Trump, you're a mandate denier. You're denying the democratic mandate that was set in 2016. There would have been all that from the left to right. Andy Burnham says it. And apparently it's not Trumpian.
Speaker 2Well, I think if Trump was saying something in this territory, it'd be rather more direct and less subtle than you're suggesting it would be.
Speaker 1I don't think it is subtle for Burnham to have said.
Speaker 2Well, he hasn't even said. He hasn't even suggested.
Speaker 1I have had the clear answer. It's your intimation.
Speaker 2It's your inference. Hang on, Chris Bright.
Speaker 1Let's just get this nailed down. The detail does matter. He was asked about possible Russian interference in the 2016 vote. He replied, I've had the clear answer that yes, there was. He is clearly saying that there was Russian interference in the referendum. That's exactly what he's saying. How is that different from Trump saying that there was interference in his own election?
Speaker 2I don't think. Did Trump say that he had interference?
Speaker 1Well, he said that the election was stolen, but it's Trumpian in its denial. I thought it was the other way around, wasn't it? What I'm saying is it's Trumpian in its denial of democracy.
Speaker 2Well, I don't read it the way you do. But you're reading things with a different pair of glasses on.
Speaker 1Maybe you're saying he probably shouldn't have said this and it was misjudged.
Speaker 2No, I'm not saying that at all.
Speaker 1Good try. Well, sounds like you don't agree with him.
Speaker 2I completely agree with it.
Speaker 1You agree there's clear evidence of Russian interference in the Brexit vote.
Speaker 2I'm not quite sure what the precise words are that Andy used.
Speaker 1I'm going to tell you them one more.
Speaker 2Oh, God. Here we go. Well, the detail is important. What I completely and utterly agree with is that the Russians would want a series of outcomes. What the Russians want and
Speaker 1what the Russians achieved are two different things. I'm going to say it one more time. I think they applauded Brexit. Those are not his words yet, are they? This is a direct verbatim quote from your esteemed viewer. Not that bit that you've just read it isn't. He was asked about Russian interference.
Speaker 2Quote. What was the precise question he was asked?
Speaker 1He was asked whether there had been possible Russian interference in the 2016 vote. Let's not gaslight now. I know exactly what we're saying. I know exactly what you said because I've listened to it multiple times. His response was as follows. I've had the clear answer that yes, there was. The next day, realising what he'd said, he then tried to backtrack. And then it became about, well, the Russians. We're going round and round in circles now
Speaker 2because we've had this several times.
Speaker 1I don't think he should have said it. And you're a good enough parliamentarian and expert on comms to know that this was a bit of a. I'm not an expert on comms. A burnin' boo-boo.
Speaker 2It's not a burnin'. I can't even say that.
Speaker 1Is he any good, this guy? Burnin'. Really, seriously. Is there anything there beyond two-pound bus fares, some Manchesterism and some very nice eyelashes?
Speaker 2Somebody said nice eyelashes to me yesterday. I was thinking, what, what? What? And then I realised Andy Burnin was standing next to me. I felt a bit deflated. Did that actually happen? Yes. What do you mean, did that actually happen? Was it a woman or a man who commented on the eyelashes?
Speaker 1A man. On the left or on the right?
Speaker 2I can't remember. I can't remember. Anyway, it happened behind the Speaker's chair. Anyway, look, the point of. What was the point I was going to make? I'm asking you whether you think that this man's up to the job. So, 100%. And I've been. I've been really charmed by the way he deals with other people, the way he listens to debate, encourages debate, is perfectly happy if people go, I'm sorry, Prime Minister, you're wrong. And he will recalibrate and think about it. I think that.
Speaker 1I'm not too long thinking. He kicks everything into the long grass. No, no, no. Let's get Louise Casey down and look at it by 2036.
Speaker 2What was the very first thing that he did? He cut taxes. Day one, cut taxes. Something that you could have been arguing for a very, very long time. And if you were clever, Camilla, which obviously you are.
Speaker 1I don't know about that.
Speaker 2Camilla, sorry. It's all right. Why did I call you Camilla?
Speaker 1Christopher, I don't know. Camilla. Like Camilla Harris.
Speaker 2Yes, Camilla Harris. Go on. Incidentally, you are a few Irish family.
Speaker 1Yeah, Irish-Italian. Tominy. Well, it was actually Tomany married a woman called Bernadetta Maria da Mambro from Frosinone in Italy. And she insisted they change the name from the more Irish Tomany to the more Italian-sounding Tominy because they ran an ice cream company and they wanted people to think it was Italian.
Speaker 2Is there a Timothy in your family?
Speaker 1Timothy Tomothy? Timothy Tominy?
Speaker 2No, he'd be Tim Tominy. Tim Tominy. Tim Timtree. Tim Timony. Sorry.
Speaker 1Christopher Bryant. Can we get back to the subject, which I think was whether Andy Burnham is any good at his job.
Speaker 2Yes. I think he's really good and interesting. I mean, one of the things that I think you really want in a leader, I know you'll deride this, but I think it's important. Yesterday afternoon, it's now Wednesday afternoon, but on Tuesday afternoon, we had people from Northern Ireland who'd lost family members in the Troubles and they're desperate to. It's what we're bringing forward legislation next week called the Troubles Bill, which is all about trying to get answers for people about how their loved ones were killed, including people who served in the armed forces. People who served in the army. You see, and others, 90% of those who were killed in Northern Ireland were killed by paramilitaries. There's some 3,500 families. And Andy met with them. I mean, he was just amazing with them. They were absolutely bowled over. And I agree.
Speaker 1I'm not doubting his goodness and decency.
Speaker 2No, but I think empathy is a really important part of a modern leader.
Speaker 1Really important. You need to be decisive.
Speaker 2Yes, he is.
Speaker 1And you need to be able to take decisions sooner than referring them on to endless reviews
Speaker 2and. So, I'll give you an example. Consultations. I'll give you an instance in my own portfolio. So, on the issue of the Troubles Bill, which had been hanging around now for months and months and months. The second reading was last November, for heaven's sake. Still hadn't come forward to a committee stage. And he was absolutely clear right from the beginning. Yes, we're going to get this through into the House of Commons. There are difficult bits to it. We've got to get them right. It's a really difficult balancing act between making sure that we. We stand by the people who served us in Northern Ireland in Operation Banner, but at the same time, making sure that families, including veterans' families, can go. get answers and he was absolutely clear from day one and and what i thought was really impressive is he turned up for the debate last night okay now there i've i've seen lots of prime ministers heaven knows we've had quite a few over the years um and i i can detect a good one all right fair
Speaker 1enough um on on that bill obviously this newspaper had done quite a lot to expose the sort of starmer shiner hermer legal access on this i'm going to say this very carefully because i'm talking about three lawyers um and you would understand i'm sure that the telegraph readership was incandescent at the notion that people who bravely served in the armed forces should then find themselves many many decades later as middle-aged if not old age or older yeah being persecuted prosecuted do you agree now that that was a catastrophic error i think it's
Speaker 2really important that our veteran that we stand by our veterans we we put them into service um and it was a very complicated situation in northern ireland it's not like a normal situation where our armed forces are serving um they were you know backing up the um the police um so they so um one of the things when i came into i was really keen to make sure that we get this bill right so that veterans it's not even that they need protection um they they need to know that we stand by them yes and so for instance the the body that's going to be trying to get all these answers for um families in northern ireland um we'll have to now we've put this on the face of the bill and say that there is no equivalence between the lawful actions of our armed forces and the deliberate acts of terrorists now that's really important because the legislation that was previously introduced by the previous government the tory government actually had an equivalence between those it gave an immunity to both terrorists and the armed forces okay and to armed forces but let's
Speaker 1not rewrite history here because you're giving quite a lot of responsibility in this legislation to the attorney general that's fine if the attorney general agrees with us not quite so fine if the attorney general is somebody like lord hermer who has historically taken upon himself made his career on trying to prosecute british soldiers for so-called crimes that we now know didn't actually exist in the middle east so why not just have a straight statute of limitations and say that no i'm not saying by the way and i would never argue you can be a soldier in war and act with total impunity of course nobody's outside of the geneva and incidentally
Speaker 2one of the things i thought was really unfair was that people people were suggesting that people in the army wanted this and they didn't know they didn't nobody wanted it
Speaker 1everybody needs and also
Speaker 2you don't want immunity for terrorists either for former terrorists
Speaker 1but surely there must come a point in any former soldier's life where how on earth can you litigate for something that happened in the city yeah and i think that's a really important point and i think that's a really important 70s and 80s in 2026 no i
Speaker 2completely agree but but also you've got to bear in mind i mean i met uh one chap who said that his father was killed during the troubles when serving in operation banner right and he sees the guy who killed him who he knows killed him yes every week in marks and spencers right but there's never been a process that has led either to a criminal justice process or any other kind of process that has laid out the facts in relation to that and you said
Speaker 1will this bill change
Speaker 2that yes this is the bill that gives him the opportunity to find out what actually happened because he can go to the leg it will be called the legacy commission when we've finished our bill he'll be able to go to the legacy commission and say look can you just find out what happened and it may be that at the end of that process they would go you know what we've got so much so many facts so many details that there could be a prosecution of the paramilitary who killed
Speaker 1him it may be that
Speaker 2they can't go that far but they can get all the other facts they can together yes so so the first of these kind of reports was produced a few weeks ago into the murder of a man called rory o'kelly who um was catholic but worked for the british government in the prosecuting service um and he was killed by um paramilitaries and um when i spoke to his daughter anne who hadn't initially actually started this process it was her brother who had done so she said even though they don't have all the details they don't know who actually did it they know more of the details that they did in the past she said just the acknowledgement that it happened yes was an enormous sense of release for her yes so that's precisely what we're going
Speaker 1to be able to do through all this magnanimity will you accept that lord hermer had previously got this completely wrong
Speaker 2well we're changing the bill well of course and we we are wrong under the
Speaker 1former attorney general that's why i'm expressing concern about the power being attributed to
Speaker 2attorney general so let me just explain a bit about the attorney general so um the original version of the bill um the original version of the bill um the original version of the bill would have meant that the final decision on whether to prosecute just lay either with the prosecuting authority in northern ireland if it had happened in northern ireland or some of these troubles related issues like the gilford pub bombing for instance happened in england obviously so that would be for the the director of public prosecutions in england and wales now they will both still have a role to play when it get if if at the end of this process there that it is felt that there is enough material for an actual prosecution i think the numbers will be very very small all we've said is that since the the attorney general is also the advocate general in northern ireland and since you might have um decisions in northern ireland and some in england and wales it will be better if the final decision was made by that person so they're basically just because of the
Speaker 1harmonization of that legislation i
Speaker 2understand the point why
Speaker 1can't you just say he was wrong and you've righted it well because i
Speaker 2don't well we're changing the bill we're correcting the bill in lots of different ways and i'm not i've never discussed it with
Speaker 1lord anymore you can just say i've never
Speaker 2discussed it with lord him so i'm uh i'm being magnanimous as well i am being told
Speaker 1to wrap up so i would like to ask you have you talked too long i think we both have this is what happens when people like us see we should have had
Speaker 2an lbc show possibly
Speaker 1there's still time isn't there although i'm quite busy so are you i can add this to my slate i'm already working six days a week and i am the
Speaker 2secretary of state for northern
Speaker 1can i ask you a question that might shock you would you under any circumstances politically speaking get into bed with zach polanski now i ask this because today at pmq's andy burn i've shivered yeah andy burnham appeared to rule out the idea of any kind of coalition that involved the greens on the left and of course the moment the mrp polling is pointing towards there being a hung parliament should a snap election be called that will therefore result in a bit of dealing between the parties where will ed davy go i think he's more in your camp than our ours on the right yours yes on the right side of the camp and i think he's more in your camp than ours on the right because i don't think he'll get into bed with either the conservatives or reform are you
Speaker 2conservative or reform i can't remember i'm
Speaker 1not uh giving away any allegiance i'm just a righty i'm agnostic at the moment i may tactically vote just to keep any kind of progressive alliance out i've said that on the record all right um so would you get into bed with the greens well i'm a
Speaker 2welsh mp apart from the else which means it's it all casts slightly different but look i mean what they've come up with um they're the the um most important party in the world and i think it's it's it's it's a it's a it's a it's a it's a it's a it's a it's a it's a it's a it's a it's a it's a it's a it's a it's a it's a it's a it's a it's a it's a it's a it's a conference zionism is absolutely disgraceful and it made me sick that there's a political party that is prepared to advocate that um you know heaven knows the worst
Speaker 1of corbyn that isn't it
Speaker 2was literally about to be my next sentence um because in the end i want a two-state solution and um i and just as it's wrong um to be building more illegal settlements in israel um just which in a way so as to prevent a two-state solution so it is equally wrong to make the kind of argument that they have which is effectively to say that the state of israel should no longer exist yes i think it's profoundly wrong and of course you know there are things that the green party in the past when sarah lucas no caroline lucas sorry was um leader used to advocate in particular around um you know um green policies and um green energy and things like that and um some other things which i would um happily support but i think this would make it very very difficult
Speaker 1yes what about ed davey want to jump into bed with him politically speaking i know what a thought
Speaker 2my answer camilla to getting into bed with ed davey is would you get
Speaker 1into bed with kemi babelock uh do you have a grudging respect for kemi babelock
Speaker 2no actually i i don't why um she said some things which i felt she didn't really believe and she said them for political reasons shock horror
Speaker 1politician in saying something they don't know but some things
Speaker 2yeah i know i get that of course and i'm secretary of state for northern ireland for but um but i think that um i find her actually the first words i ever said in a play were when i played fluellen in henry v and he says um as magnanimous as agamemnon now um i just want people in politics i supposed to be as magnanimous as agamemnon and one of the things i'm constantly trying to say in northern ireland politics is it's easy to stir up a grievance it's much more difficult to calm it down and i find her a stir up of grievances
Speaker 1chris bryan i can't believe you're saying this my
Speaker 2god don't look shamefaced now
Speaker 1well first of all thank you for the big reveal about your amateur thespianism second of all you love stirring it up You're there on X, having a go at righties. You're like, you like to get a big old wooden spoon out.
Speaker 2I like to think that I'm always witty and generous and magnanimous in it.
Speaker 1Yeah, but you do love a bust up with a righty, let's be honest.
Speaker 2Well, I mean, some of the things that are said to me on social media are, you know, what was it yesterday? I was, because the Pope had a nodule in his lung. Yes. Yes. And I had my second round of cancer was melanoma in my lung. So it returned. It was originally on the back of my head and then it came in my lung.
Speaker 1I remember. I think my colleague Gordon Rayner did the story with you.
Speaker 2Exactly. And I did. And in fact, he was in the car when I heard the when I heard the results. That's right. And we had to stop because I was crying. And we have a heart, the
Speaker 1journalists here, you know.
Speaker 2He's nice. They anyway, look, I'm telling you a story. Sorry, carry on. I'm pouring out my heart. Please do. You heartless woman. I know. And he and so I posted yesterday saying I wish the Pope well, because he's he would have me going through a very similar operation to the one I did. And I know what it was like, though. I mean, I think he had a larger chunk out taken out. And incidentally, I would really pay tribute to the fact that they're being so open about it because it's so important for other people to show that somebody.
Speaker 1King and Kate in a way. All of that.
Speaker 2I think it's really, really important because we need to defeat this idea that cancer always kills. Fifty percent of people soon will be living. With having had cancer will be living with cancer. Anyway, I posted something about it saying I wished him well. Somebody replied, I hope you've got AIDS by now.
Speaker 1Oh, for God's sake.
Speaker 2So all I'm saying is I and I try to, you know, brush a lot of that off quite often. If somebody, you know, has a go at me and calls me a raving puffer or whatever, I will say stop flirting, love.
Speaker 1No, quite or whatever, isn't it? How many people bring sexuality suddenly into a debate about something? Something completely different? This isn't as bad.
Speaker 2My husband didn't even know I was gay, so it was quite a revelation to him.
Speaker 1Goodness me. Exactly. I was called a delusional hag last night and I said a hag maybe, but delusional?
Speaker 2Oh, no, I was going with the delusional bit. It was the delusional bit I was signed up to.
Speaker 1Delusional was spelt incorrectly and I did point it out to him on Instagram. With an I? In the interest of magnanimity again, then, say something nice about Nigel Farage.
Speaker 2About Nigel Farage. Nigel Farage. Well, actually, the thing I think that must be really tough for him is I worked on the by-election in Clacton, not when he stood the first time, but a previous one. And I remember going to Jaywick's and thinking that is some of the worst housing I've seen of anywhere in this country.
Speaker 1It's the most impoverished area of England.
Speaker 2And it shouldn't, I mean, how on earth did anybody allow that to happen? You know, these were basically. Sort of sheds by the sea, which ended up becoming people's homes and there aren't proper streets and all that kind of stuff. So I feel for him that he's got a really, really tough constituency to represent.
Speaker 1Fair enough. Shall we end on that agreeable note, Chris Bryant?
Speaker 2I still think he's wrong.
Speaker 1Well, that's fine.
Speaker 2About everything. I know, but. And he's done more damage to this country than anybody else.
Speaker 1He hasn't even been in charge of the country.
Speaker 2Yeah, well. You think he's
Speaker 1done more damage than, say, Thatcher? I bet you've got a little grudging respect for Maggie. I can just tell it in you.
Speaker 2No, no, no, no, completely not. I mean, so I'm the MP for Rhondda and Ogmore, former mining constituency. And I mean, I know other people closed mines as well in the past.
Speaker 1Well, Labour actually closed far more mines than the Conservatives ever did, Chris Bryant.
Speaker 2Absolutely true. But what happened when Thatcher closed the mines is that everybody was put on benefits. And that's given us a lot of opportunity. And that's given us a long-term incapacity, you know, financial, economic problem.
Speaker 1What's interesting about that CSJ report from this week on benefits, Centre for Social Justice, is, to be fair, all of the areas where more than half the population are on benefits, and I think it's 3,000 areas across the UK, are all former industrialised towns. Yes. So right and left need to accept the failings on that.
Speaker 2You know, there's a Russian. Sorry to use Russian, but there's a Russian word, monogorod, and it means a city that only has one industrialised town. And that's basically what the Valleys of South Wales were. They had one industry. In our case, it was mining. Just down the road, it was steel and so on. And where you only have one industry and that industry collapses in on itself or ends up being closed or whatever, I think there's an enormous onus on the whole of a country to have to come in and make a difference to make sure that those people have new opportunities. Because people only went to live in the Rhondda and in Ogmore in those tight little valleys because there was coal. And so trying to recreate a world in which people have economic opportunity is really difficult in those circumstances.
Speaker 1You asked me about my Irish-Italian heritage. I've also got some Welsh heritage. Have you? My maternal grandmother, Vera Mary Llywelyn Lloyd-Jones. There you have it, Chris. There's more that unites us than divides us, isn't there?
Speaker 2Yes. To remember Joe Cox.
Speaker 1Indeed. And this week, David Amess.
Speaker 2David Amess. Yes. Chris Bryant. And just on David Amess, incidentally. Lovely chap. So absolutely adorable. And one of the things that I loved about him was he was passionately opposed to gay marriage. Yes. But he always asked me after my husband.
Speaker 1Did he? Yeah. He was passionately against it because he was a very, very committed and devout Christian.
Speaker 2Yes. I think Roman Catholic.
Speaker 1Ah, he's one of mine. I'm lapsed. The other.
Speaker 2Does that make you a notorious apostate?
Speaker 1I don't know what it makes me. I think it does. It makes me something. A notorious apostate.
Speaker 2A delusional, notorious apostate.
Speaker 1Tim Stanley is trying to drag by her feet back to Rome. On that note, Chris Bryant, thank you for being a good sport. And thank you for taking part in this Sunday Showdown. Great to speak to you.
Speaker 2Thank you very much.
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