The Story Behind the Skincare Brand That Changed What Men Put on Their Face | Mind Pump

If you want to pump your body and expand your mind, there's only one place to go. Mind Pump. Mind Pump. With your hosts, Sal DiStefano, Adam Schafer, and Justin Andrews. You just found the most downloaded fitness, health, and entertainment podcast. This is Mind Pump. Today's episode, we have the CEO of Caldera Lab on the podcast. So Caldera Lab is really innovating in the skincare market. First off, they're one of the top skincare companies for men. I know that was a place nobody wanted to go. Well, they did, and they crushed it. Their products are natural, and they make your skin healthier. So we wanted them on the show to talk about the history behind this company, why Target Men, why the name, and how does their stuff actually work. So we know you're going to love this episode. And of course, it's brought to you by Caldera Lab. And if you go through our link, you'll get 20% off. Go to calderalab.com slash mindpump. Use the link. Use the code mindpump20 to get the 20% off discount. All right, real quick. If you love us like we love you, why not show up by rocking one of our shirts, hats, mugs, or training gear over at mindpumpstore.com. I'm talking right now. Hit pause. Head on over to mindpumpstore.com. That's it. Enjoy the rest of the show. Jared, welcome to the show. Thank you. Thanks for having me. So founder of Caldera Lab, and I've been meaning to ask you this. So it feels like you guys have created a, like, a new category of skincare. You went after an audience that I don't think anybody wanted to touch in skincare. Like, what gave you the idea? And by the way, you guys are crushing it. You do a good job. So you obviously, your hunch was right. But what made you want to go for skincare for men? Like, how did that all start? Yeah, yeah. It's a great question. So I've never built a physical product before as a business entrepreneur. I was an entrepreneur and am an entrepreneur for most of my career. I started off in the ad tech industry down in Southern California, a couple of years out of college. And about 15 years into that, I had an opportunity to sell a portion of the business and take some time off. And that's when my wife and I, with a new baby, started living in Jackson Hole, Wyoming. And living in that high alpine climate, if you ever go up to, like, Tahoe and whatnot, your hands start to get really dry and ashy. Your skin starts to dry out. Your lips. Your lips, all that stuff. Started to happen to me. And I was, you know, just turning 40, new baby, starting to see the signs of aging and getting really chafed, all this stuff. The products I had been historically using for men, for me, that from my 20s and 30s just stopped working entirely and started to make my skin even worse. So, very cliche, started using some of my wife's products. And there was, like, one or two that just transformed. And I was, like, wow. Like, how, this is incredible, you know? Why doesn't this exist for men? And that's how it all kind of kicked it off from that point forward. So, you're like, okay, guys need this. But also, guys don't, are not, historically, don't care about skin care. How do we, like, make them care about this? Yeah, did you think about that? Were you like, well, dudes don't really, like, how am I going to sell this to guys? You know, interestingly, I started to see a trend, you know, like I mentioned, just turned 40. My friends starting to use more skin care products, right? Including myself and people in Jackson Hole, guys who are, like, rugged, you know, like mountaineers, like hardcore backcountry skiers and stuff like that, you know? Surprisingly, you know, they'd tell me, oh, yeah, I was using this one product. I'm like, I'm using the same one, you know? Interesting. So, it started clicking. It started clicking. Wait a minute. There are men who are using skin care products. Maybe it's not in mass, but I saw the vision. At some point, there's going to be an inflection point when it does happen where men are going to be more of a consumer in this category. That was the long-term vision. Do you think, like, how huge the Jackson Hole move had to be? Because, so for me, personally, this is before Meeting Color, I didn't even realize I had that issue until experiencing going to, like, Reno and Lake Tahoe and living in California, near the coast, and getting a little bit older. Didn't notice it as a kid. For some reason, as I got into my late 30s, started to notice, like, oh, my God, when I go over here, as much as I love going to Tahoe, just my lips start cracking, and my skin gets certain dry. And I have psoriasis now, and so that flares up. So, had you not made that move, do you think you make that, do you think you see that? Do you think you even notice the difference in your skin? Were you noticing it even in California? Not as bad, you know, because, you know, I was living by the ocean, you know, so. Which is nice. Had the nice moisture in the air. But once I got into that high elevation, it just amplified things exponentially. It's like being out in the desert in Palm Springs and stuff. Yeah. It's dry as well. You know, you dry out quite quickly. And so that really took my skin health to a different place that I'd never experienced before. And, you know, skin is like that. It's like that one, you know. The thing that visibly, when you see someone or they see you, if your skin's not healthy, that's the kind of first thing that you, you know, identifies, you know, that person looks a little tired or there's something going on there, you know? And so for me, you know, when I started experiencing these things and I was able to solve them with some of the products for my wife, that inspired us. We're like, why doesn't these types of products exist for men? And the thing was that. You know, there are ingredients that, that work better for men's skin because men's skin is 25% thicker. It's two times more oilier and it's, and it's, and it's managed by testosterone, right? So, you know, there's a question of, well, why don't just use women's skincare, right? Well, that's built for women's skin, right? Our skin is different and that's what really inspired me to dive in deeper and start learning about how to. Really build product for a men's skin profile. So that first one that you tried, that was a woman's product and you already noticed it started to help how much is your formulation different from that? Cause I imagine that was probably the base. You're like, okay, there's something here that this is kind of working. How do I improve on that? How, how did that process look like? Great question. So what we did is we started to analyze and look at research, all the different actives out there, the actives are the. Ingredients that actually have, uh, that make a difference on the skin that actually they're like the supplements, the vitamins for your skin. Okay. And there are, are actives that have clinical data and research around male skin, male hair, male endocrinology. And so we started to zero in and focus on those, right. That have clinical data that actually improve your, your skin quality. And that's kind of where the whole journey started to like unlock one door after another that, oh, wow, you can actually build. A whole formula tailored around men's skin. And this hadn't been done from what we researched before. Everything was kind of unisex or is mostly like women's brands or women's formulas that we repurpose for men with different scent profiles. That's what was happening in the men's skincare category at the time. You know, you know, in the, in the skincare industry, it's interesting. Cause I think it's a lot like the supplement industry. You can go to these co-manufacturers, you can show up and be like, Hey, I'm this new brand. You know, I'm really good at marketing. I want to build a new, you know, supplement. Or skincare brand. Right. And they're, they'll, they'll show you a menu. Here's your cleansers. Here's your moisturizers. Here's your other products. And then you can, you can put this scent in here. You like this scent. Okay. Go, go to a branding agency, come back and select your packaging. We'll put this all in there and you'll be in business in six months. Wow. And that exists. That existed. Isn't that like the clone and perfume game like the same way too? Isn't a lot of stuff like that? I think, I think so. Supplements are like that. He's right about supplements. I mean, I think there's a lot of, I think perfume is like owned by like one person. Like one major conglomerate owns like most all the scents and then all these fancy brands just put their logo on that scent. And it's like, there's not like this. And they, they sell it like it's this crazy formulation that they did. That's right. So I got to give you a little pushback because my wife stopped using her women's skincare stuff and she uses, she steals my Caldera lab stuff. Nice. She likes it way more than the other stuff. So it's, although it's formulated for men, it's also different because when I look at women's products, when I look at the ingredients. Uh, your stuff is, and this is such a bastardized term. It's natural. There's a lot of natural ingredients, whereas the other products are like very like chemical based type stuff. Is that like a big issue? Is that like a big deal for you guys to make sure that, okay. Huge deal. Now that was from inception. Back when we started to dive into this category, what was happening in the, in the women's category, there was this clean movement. You know, people were stepping away from toxic skincare, toxic home products, things like that, that nature. We just had a baby. My wife went super into it. And, uh, that was always paramount to us to have a product line that came from natural ingredients, but high quality natural ingredients. And there are, there are ingredients that are naturally derived that have like really high quality, almost medical grade, you know, performance. Right. And those are kind of the, the actives. And so we've always built our products with science and, and nature. as a combination, right? That's the ethos of, how we select our ingredients and build our formulations. So clean now and, and, and, you know, toxic free, that is, that is kind of the, the, the table stakes, right? In Europe, there's like 1200 ingredients banned, right? Here. Better not. Yeah. They're about 20, you know? And so, you know, historically there's all these, you know, brands and products that had a lot of these things that were maybe not so good for you, you know, and we're finding these out, you know, now what people are getting sick and whatnot. Now, how much, how much more difficult and or expensive is it to go the whole natural route than to just jump on the bandwagon and throw some of the. It's a lot more complicated, right? Because you know, the, the, the stuff that is chemically made, right? It is, it's, it's made in a lab, right? It's very, they, they produce it very easily and it can combine well with other chemicals. When you have naturally derived products or natural ingredients, right? They have to be tested with the other ingredients for stability and irritancy and things of that nature. I mean, all products do generally, but when they're natural based, right? Um, they just have a little bit more of, of potential to, you know, interact with an other ingredient, not the way that you intended it. Right. As far as mixing the smell of it, the tech, like I can see how, oh, these two great natural things are supposed to be good for your skin, but boy, they just don't, they don't work together. Not just, did you run into that a lot? Did you run into like, oh, I really want this in it, but it was just like, it just. Yeah. So, you know, when we kicked this thing off, we started reaching out to the top scientists, top formulators, top green chemists in the industry, telling them about our vision of wanting to create a high performance premium skincare brand for men. And a lot of them, they all loved it. They all said we were crazy at the same time. And just because, you know, from their experience, the industry wasn't ready yet. Right. And, and some of the brands before us just failed, you know, pretty much every, every male celebrity skincare brand out there before us didn't, didn't make it, you know? And so we said, you know, that's a great place to be. You know, if, if someone tells you don't go there in business, you probably want to look deeper. It's open water. It's essentially. Yeah. Yeah. It's green pastures there. Yeah. So, in fact, so that's actually one of the questions I was going to ask you, because you're doing this and you're like, cool, less competitors. However, everybody seems to fail in this, in this area. So a big part of this, I know this for a fact, but I'd like to ask you was going to be like, how do we reach this audience? How do we get men to consider skincare products when historically it just hasn't worked no matter what football player or athlete or whatever has presented it. So you must've looked at this and said, okay, how are we going to approach this and, and, and connect with men? And what, what did that look like? Yeah. So, you know, I, I, I've built this business a lot around my own personal journey and those of people, my friends around me, you know, as I mentioned, as I started getting older, my skin started to suffer, you know, I started investing more and more into nutrition, into fitness and wellness, right? Longevity, taking care of myself. And in self-care being a big part of that, right. As we've brought this brand to market and we've identified a group of customers and a lot of them are your customers, right. Who are into those same things, right. We started tapping into a self-optimization movement, right. This, this longevity movement, this fitness movement, this, this kind of wellness, you know, category, right. That's, that's, it's a consumer shift, right. Totally. It's a consumer shift. Did you, did you see it or did you like kind of feel it as it was happening? Was it like something like you for a little bit of both? I knew, you know, from myself and those around me, it's like, you know, I have friends who kind of went the other path, you know, don't work out, eat like shit, you know, can't care, you know, don't really think twice about, you know, their, their wellness overall. Right. And they're great. They love what they're doing. Right. And then I have other friends like myself who are very conscious about, you know, how we show up every day and what we put in our body and how we train and how we, you know, think about everything that, that is our whole wellness optimization stack. Right. And so seeing that, that movement take place and starting to tap into that advertising wise, right. On social, right. And through podcasts and whatnot, tapping into where those customers out there are consuming their content and then showing up with the, with ads that, you know, explain our ethos of a brand that is also about skin health and your overall health and tapping into that movement. And that's where we, I think we, we hit a chord with our consumers. When did you guys hit the market? What year? So we launched in 2019. We started product development in 2017. So we worked on one product for almost two years, and then we did an actual clinical trial to validate the performance. And then we launched in January of 2019. Okay. So we were partners early. What was the, we'll get there. Cause I want to ask that, but, uh, what was, what percentage of the skincare market was men when you started? Cause you see the, like, what, what did it look like? Like how, how big of a sliver? I, you know, I, I think it's, it was very, it was low single digits. It's almost non-existent. Yeah. Yeah. Low, low single digits for premium skincare for men. Our first product that we launched the good, which is our hero skew, it's $110. That's the other part that I thought was double leap. It's a double leap right there. It's like, I got to convince dudes. And I'm going to make 110 bucks. Yeah. And that, that, that, that's why everyone said we were crazy. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So, so, and this is how, you know, you did a great job. Cause we've worked with, we've, I've seen this with a couple companies, not very many where they come out with a product. Everybody says crazy. And then it does so well, it creates a new market. I feel like you guys have done that. Like how do we know what the stats are now on what percentage of the skincare market? Has it changed since 2019? It's been growing double digits, been, been growing double digits. I don't know the exact, I haven't looked at the recent data, but you know, our business is growing exponentially. Okay. And so in 98% of our customers, you know, in our surveys, I'd say they're, they're male customers. And we look at our customer list and this is all men and they're buying for themselves. So the movement is here. Did it, did it, was it right out the gates or was it a slow? No. So, so when we launched, you know, we, we, we didn't know, like if we were going to be sitting in a warehouse with a warehouse of 10,000 of these things, right. And we only ordered 10,000 because, you know, that was kind of the minimum order and we didn't want to like, you know, be too aggressive. Launched and day one, we started selling, we started selling and, and, you know, we, you know, we, we started ramping and ramping every month was bigger than the next. And, and by the time from January, when we got through summer, we started to see our, our, our inventory was really depleting and people repeat purchasing. And we're like, shit, maybe this is a real business. We'll have to place another purchase order. Let's place another order. Immediately, we started to get feedback, you know, love your product. I use a cleanser. I use a moisturizer. Can you bring those out to market as well? You know, and, and that, and now that when we started to get that feedback loop coming in, that was, I think the, the moment that we said, okay, we have confidence in moving forward and really starting to grow and build this thing. Your customer retention is crazy. Yes. Okay. So I'd love to, Adam, you got to share how we started working with them. I will get there too, but I want to, so you had an advertising background before this, correct? I did, but that was on the B2B side. Okay. So never- Totally different. Yeah. Totally different, but still have some- You understand marketing. Yes. Yeah. So you have a decent foundation. I mean, to the point where, I mean, I'm so curious to even how you branded, like the brand is beautiful. It's obviously, did you hire that out? Did you figure that out yourself? How many reiterations were there to like what this should look like? Did you spend a lot of time on that? How much did you have to spend before you could even see if there was a market for it? Were you deep underwater financially before you? Were you even, you know, went out there? Like, what did that look like? So a lot of questions, but all good ones. Okay. So researched a lot about the industry early on. Like, you know, who are the branding companies for these brands? You know, these creative agencies that you go to like with an idea and then they create your brand, your packaging and things of that nature. You know, who are the PR agencies? Who are the contract manufacturers? Who are the, you know, formulators? So researched all these things. And then, you know, the competition that exists in men's, you know, the women's category. Built all that research and then decided to design a plan, a strategy, right? Coming up with a name, you know, the location where the business is going to be founded. You know, what's our first product? You know, what's the COGS? All those things, right? And so, you know, cost-wise, yeah, I had to invest a lot of money in this company initially to get it off the ground, to design the brand. To do the packaging, to make that first MOQ order, you know, of 10,000 units, right? And then build the world. website, you know, put together a small team of, you know, product development specialists and e-commerce and then launch. Right. So, so it takes, takes a little bit, you know, and I didn't have any experience. So yes, I understood the ecosystem of advertising and how things are created, but it was entirely new and it was a challenge. It was an exciting challenge because moving from, you know, ad tech into consumer is a completely different beast in many ways. For sure. You're dealing with real customers, right? And those real customers, if they don't repurchase, you're dead in the water, you know? And, and, you know, I think what set us apart, when I know what set us apart is our product development. So, you know, going back to that, you know, idea of going to a contract manufacturer, they have these formulas, you can just buy them, you know, you get exclusivity to them, whatever, put a cent into them, you're, you're in market with your new men's skincare business. That also happened, that happened in the women's side as well. So the brands that we identified in the women's category that were doing really interesting work were doing all custom formulation, right? So they're starting from scratch, right? With their own briefs and their ingredient selections. And then you iterate and iterate and iterate. You test through clinical trials and things of that nature. And then you go to market. It's a long time. It's like two to three years to bring a product out to market. There's a lot of risks. What if it doesn't work? Once you launch it, it has stability issues, all those things, right? You just wasted all that time versus, that whole fail fast mentality. So we took the long hard way approach of product development, but that's the only way that we've identified. You can build really like interesting formulas that actually have efficacy and get repeat purchases. And that's been our moat is our product development. And then we went even further recently with that, you know, you got, you know, proprietary formulas, right? With existing ingredients that, that you can buy from like top, you know, ingredient suppliers. Right. You know, peptides and, and exosomes and all those things. Right. Yeah. We actually went into the biotech category where we started working on building our own proprietary ingredients with our, the top labs in Europe. Right. So, you know, the exosome category is the one that we focus in most recently. So, you know, product development for us is what really has separated us and has allowed, enabled us to build a brand, get into market and grow year over year, quarter over quarter. become profitable and then start to hit the wave that we're hitting now. Right. Where word of mouth, you know, our, our, our whole distribution channel is working or we're now going, we just went into Nordstrom's, you know, you know, what happened that we launched that in May. Awesome. And now we've already been, you know, uh, shared that we're the number two men's brand, you know, I don't know if I can say that, but okay. So the other thing that, cause all that's important for sure, because what, I mean, customer focus, they get the product, they love the product to tell that's one of the best ways to build and lay a foundation. But the other thing that I think people, entrepreneurs just, they, they miss so much is that I don't care if you have the best product in the world, getting in the hands of thousands of people to go test and fall in love with it, to go tell thousands more people. So did you have a, you know, at that time, did you have a social media or a podcast strategy? Like how were you going to get this in the hands? I've got this awesome product. You know, you're going to win. You're going to win. You're going to win. You're going to win there. You've tested it. Yeah. Everybody that's your friend, okay. Your circle. So a hundred people maybe, right. Or telling you how awesome it is, but a hundred people doesn't build a multimillion dollar business. So what's the strategy of how do I get this out to everybody? Yeah. So it was a lot of fail and learn, you know, it was like, yeah, we, you know, we have our website. Okay. Great. You know, social account. That's, that's, you need that for sure. Right. Uh, go and get a meta account and start advertising. Right. Did that to try that on our own. Then we, then we like, okay, we're not doing it so well. So let's hire an agency, you know, uh, for, for growth marketing. Right. It's what's, what's, you know, hire some consultants to help us like think through how to like build a growth funnel, right. How to build ads, how to build landing pages, right. How to think about the, this, this whole growth funnel, you know, the top of funnel, mid funnel, low, like all these things that, you know, exist in, um, DTC marketing. We didn't have any experience in, you know, and, or very little, right. But the team I put together. And so every year we got a little bit better, a little bit smarter. And we went from one agency to the next. And finally I built an in-house team and that was tough. That was tough. We, you know, that was almost, you know, seven years ago, probably. Right. And, um, you know, six years ago. And, and that was, that was when we really started to see progress take place is when we started to build our in-house team. And, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, I have a, I'm part of a founder's group with a lot of successful founders. And one of the common themes, we were just all together, not that long ago in Miami that we all shared all of us that have been doing this for 10 plus years is, uh, that turning point. Uh, we all hired all these agencies. We all had stories of this one, that one, this one, and all the learning experiences. And then eventually when it all came together was when we built it in-house, because in, you know, what do you think that is? You think it's, uh, nobody's ever going to, you know, love your child the way you do. And, you know, like, yeah, it's just, no one's going to know your voice and brand as well as you, right? Yeah. I feel, I feel the, the same way. What was, so you do, you build it all in-house by the way, too, just to give you some, some flowers. Uh, we use, uh, the ads that you guys make of us. So your white listing ads, you run of us. We try and teach all the other partners how well you guys do that. We have to coach a lot of other partners on like how you take the content that we make when we talk about our, our partners and brands that we love and make ads out of it. And you're got, whoever's doing that on your team does a phenomenal job. Yeah. Does such a good job that we use them as the example of like, you guys need to figure this out because we don't do it for them. We literally just do what we do, which is talk about the brand that we love and they know how to chop it, piece it together and make it a great ad. You know, what's cool about that is, you know, the team that we built, you know, they didn't, you know, they didn't come from like the top brands and stuff, you know, the team that I built were very talented, smart, young professionals earlier in their career, right. Who you saw had a really high upside potential and they've developed those skills in-house with our brand. Right. And they've become a part of our brand. They know it inside and out. They are the brand. That makes sense. Yeah. Yeah. It's such a good question because, well, there's no question how good your products are. Your repurchase rate or loyalty has got to be through the roof. And I know this because I have a lot of, I have a big family, come from a big Italian family. There's a lot of male cousins. There's like nine of us that grew up together all the same age. And once a year we do a Christmas party for Mind Pump. And so we'll invite them. And every guest that we invite to this Christmas party, we give them like a little bag that includes like some gifts and stuff. And we've put in Caldera Lab products in there. And now my cousin's no interest in skincare, zero. And like, these are dudes that wash their face with like, you know, dish soap. Like they could care less. Every single one of them is a regular customer. Yeah. Cause they use it once and they're like, oh my God, this stuff is incredible. Yes. So your loyalty, I mean, do you, can you share what that looks like? Cause it's got to be through the roof. Yeah. We're, we're at the high, high mark. So for a consumer brand, anything like over 30, 40% is, is, is, is decent. We're at the almost 70%. That's crazy. Wow. Are men typically loyal like that with products or is that even a harder market to get? I mean, I've heard men are loyal. I'm loyal. You know, once I buy, you know, shoes or clothes or any brands that I enjoy that work for me, I stick with them, you know? So, so I know that we've always heard that, but yeah, our customers are super loyal. That's an interesting thing. And I wonder that comparing men and women, cause women typically are better customers, right? They're, they're buyers, they're consumers, but I bet once you win a guy over, we're probably more loyal to a brand. Like we're, I'm so that way with everything. I find a sandwich plate, the same damn sandwich. My wife hates it. She's like, you want to go back to the same restaurant over and over again? Yeah, it's boring. I know it. There's something to be said about once you win that customer over, like this, they're probably. Okay. Adam, I want you to tell them how we all, how we all, we started working with them. How long has it been? It has. So you remember what year? Cause it had to have been pretty close to when you guys were launched. Were we your first podcast you ever worked with? I think so. I think it was, I think we did a few podcasts within a short period of time within a 30 day mix. And I think you guys were one of four or five. Yeah. Yeah. And I, I remember when it came across myself, my, myself, and I actually don't know if Kat, if Katrina was helping me this time, if it was all the way back to Taylor, but I've always ran the, the partnership side. And typically the way this looks is I do a lot of the negotiating, talking to the partners. If I think it's something that's even worth bringing to these guys, I'll bring it over to them and say, Hey, here's a company that wants to work with it. Try it out, see what you guys like. And I had got it. And I'm, I'm sorry, of the four of us, I'm probably, maybe I'd include Doug in there too. Interested in more of this stuff, right? They tease me of being the more feminine one out of all of us. Right. So I care about how I look. I care about Justin washes his face with gasoline. doesn't do anything uh and so i started using i have psoriasis and so um and i'm very anti all the steroid creams they try and give you stuff like that and you got sensitive skin and i have very sensitive skin and uh man it's like instantly i saw a difference and i loved it and i was like man i really like this but i remember going shit these guys are not neither one of these knuckleheads use anything like this and so i bring it to him for sure and i said hey i really like this i like this brand i liked everything about your branding your website i saw i obviously love the product and i said let's just try this and i don't even remember what i i originally pitched you guys on advertising because i think i believe i was like i'm gonna just give them a really low price because i don't want to i don't want to fail you i don't want to like because it could be flat and uh and convince the guys to at least try it and uh i'm pretty sure it took off really really well we were sold i'll tell you what sold me so i'm a big science guy so i looked at some of the ingredients and i'm like this is interesting it's uh for me i thought this is really good for the microbiome of the skin that's what that's where i came from that's correct because i know that the skin uh microbiome of the skin is very important um a lot of people don't realize that there's a microbiome on your skin um and you know you had something earlier about how your skin is one of the first things people notice well that's because it displays a lot about your health gut health issues will show up on your skin liver issues will show up in your skin even issues with your skin so i'm a big science guy so i looked at some blood lipids will show up on your skin uh so that kind of got me interested but what sold me was you couldn't get two guys with more different skin than justin and i yeah like it was actually wild he's dry and ashy i'm oily and dark okay how can we have the similar results we used the i think it was the good yeah that's the serum yeah and both of us were like like i'm like oh it's gonna make my face super oily no it's like balance it out this guy puts it on and looks and we're just both like yeah i think we're i think we're sponges like i think we're gonna use this you know and so we were just totally sold yeah from that i also think that's part of it too is um and i believe this in the supplement market too the supplements that do the best and show are when people can feel it right away right so if it was like one of those products where it's like use this for 30 days and we promise your skin will be better and it's like you know what dude is going to do this every day but it's like you do it one time and you can kind of feel and see the difference right away and so something that it's like okay this is cool and so yeah it was a bit of twisting the arm to get them to try it they were open it was funny yeah and so they were like they were open to it but then the response we got from our audience yeah was just incredible were we were we a big part of that initial push to kind of get into that audience did that make a big difference that opened our eyes big time that that you're a type of audience you know people who are into self-optimization into wellness and longevity into fitness right that that there's a customer base out there for us right and we tapped into that through your podcast it it validated what we we assume was going to be a really strong customer base and now it's just been you know pure chemistry you know it's it's been you know an incredible relationship and uh your customers are are some of our highest value customers i'm you know i imagine too because it is such a perfect marriage when you think about the storyline of of what you did and what you try to do by bring it creating a new market what happens when this is similar to what's happening even in the peptide space and why we we do really well for those companies is there's there's there's a bit of an education process that you need right like trying to educate men on why this is good for them the microbiome of the skin i understand that this is some of the things that i think that sal we do on the podcast so well because getting them to convince and then once you convince them to try you deliver on the product so it's like we do a really good job of explaining like why this is so good how this helps you why it will work and then when you deliver on the back end of oh it's a hell of a product it's just this win-win and it's been it's been it's been an incredible thing to watch and we joke about it all the time about like who would ever thought that we would have a skin product is probably one of our i don't think it worked if it was just aesthetic marketing no not at all yeah i think the whole natural and health angle for men like that clicks because it's like okay this is like functionally good for me like it's my skin benefits from this as opposed to being just like oh i'm gonna look youthful although i don't know a lot of dudes that talk like i gotta say though it's just the weirdest thing i've done a few ads for you guys and they're all they're true i they're honest i've had people come up to me in the gym dudes and they've commented on my skin which is very strange to have a grown man but it's happened like four times yeah and i immediately have a great skin and i immediately i'm like oh well that's a company that i work with in fact i've had people stop me and ask me if i was a a spokesperson for you guys because we had to run like oh i actually have a podcast today that i run so talk a little bit about the some of the the science that goes in to the products and the ingredients uh the first product you have was that was that the good was that this is good yeah okay so what went into that or what's in that that makes it work so well and let's kind of go through some of the some of the different ones that you have now yeah yeah so i'm going to go through some of the some of the different ones that you have now yeah yeah so the good so so being in jackson this is a cool story right early on my wife and i started to meet with a local botanist botanist somebody who studies plants yeah and um i bet you get great ones out there you probably have some incredible botanists out in the incredible botanist ethno bonds ethno botanist is somebody who studies how humans work with plants for medicinal reasons purposes and things in nature that nature so we we had an idea that we were going to do a of you know could we find plants in the region that had skincare healing properties that we could use in our in our products and and working with the botanists there in jackson hall in the mountain west we identified several plants fireweed elderberry and several others you know that we started to to test with labs that we're talking about with and so um with the green scientists that we worked with and the formulators that had you know there were biologists and all these really exciting uh academics and and skin care experts we put together like an ingredient list of over 2 000 ingredients oh gosh you know to evaluate and to think about right and with the intent to try and bring in some of these plants from jackson hall in in the region and the reason why is these plants that live up there in that that region they're called survivor plants right they're survivor plants because they live in really harsh conditions they go away in the dormant in the winter and they come back very vibrant in the summer and they're full of antioxidants right because it protects them from the this is funny because you grow plants and you want to make them really strong with whatever you stress them that's right yeah that's right interesting yeah and so instead of like getting you know ingredients that are farmed even if they're organically farmed right wild wild plants have a lot more antioxidants and and so we tested this you know to verify that and and so that kind of thinking and and philosophy of science started to go into how we built the good and the good was you know very you know naturally derived you know it's oil-based serum which at the time there really weren't any you know oil-based serums for men or in in general you know but um when using that type of product in that region it just felt so nice on my skin and those that we tested it with you know so from there we started to look at what are really high-end actives like anthrax and putting those types of of actives together with with some of these these plants like the fireweed and etc and then test it to see how it performs in the labs and then do an actual clinical trial and the clinical trial is really the one where you know you go out to you know 40 50 60 people that you have no relationship with that's run by a lab they test it multiple ways through instrument testing but also photography and surveys and all that to get real third-party valid validated results right and that's that's kind of you know how we got to a place of can we really launch a product that we believe in that we think is going to have repeat purchases that's going to actually drive efficacy and so that's where the brand started you know and then we we unleash you know really working with sophisticated formulators and scientists to bring in more of the the plant-based biotech skincare got it how the hell do you find guys like this is there like a google or is this like a friend who introduces you to another like yeah research helps right and one you you so so you meet you know these these contract manufacturers you meet these formulators you you you look for scientists in the category on linkedin and things of that nature and you start you know reaching out them to them saying hey you know this is my brand so i'm developing some will say yes we'll work with you and some will say no we don't think you have a shot you're not worth my time you know and as we've grown as a brand we have access now to the top lines in the industry who have built the best brands yeah you know in in the space what what how many of the the actives or the plants and the good grown plants, is it a big percentage? There's about four that are in the good that we. That you have to get from the wild. Every summer, we have botanists who are wild harvesting. I was just going to say, how does that. They just got to go out into the wilderness? So they go out into their wilderness. They go to their patches. They know where they are. And they wild harvest, and they do it responsibly so they don't get the whole patch, and they get a part of it so it regenerates, and they do this all over in different areas. Oh, my gosh. Yeah. So how does that work? Do you have to buy land to do this, or are you able to do it on. So they have their regions, right? They have their relationships with wherever they go, and they wild harvest. Are there popular or commonly used actives in other skincare products that you guys don't use? Like retinol. Do you guys use retinol? We don't use retinol. We use plant-based retinols and things of that nature. A lot of this, I just test on myself. Whenever I use a retinol, my face gets extremely chafed. That's right. And I can't kick it. And the thing with retinol, you have to keep on using it and using it because it basically eats away. It kills the top layer of skin. Yeah, it kills your layers of skin. It's like when you get a scab, and your scab goes away, and you have that white or the pink. It's the same thing with your face, and you have to go through that process for like three weeks or something to that effect. My face can't handle that. And a lot of men that I know can't handle it either because they have sensitive skin. So we stay away. And that's the thing. When I was testing a lot of women's products that had some of these really advanced, high-grade ingredients in there that do these pills and whatnot. They're harsh. They're harsh. That doesn't work for me and the people, my friends, that it didn't work for. So we stayed away from some of those. But there are actives that are more gentle, right, that can work with the male skin type. So here's why my wife switched, because she's used all the other stuff. She's obviously a woman, so she's used female stuff. And now she switches over. And uses primarily, if not only, Caldera Lab products. She says it doesn't feel like it's forcing her skin to look healthy. It's almost like it's just encouraging it to look healthy or it's just becoming healthier, whereas the other stuff was harsh, I think, would be the right word. Yes, that's a great point. You know, this whole anti-aging thing, right? It's kind of bullshit, right? We're all aging, right? We're all aging products, but they're healthy aging products. That's a great point. It's healthy aging, right? And I think the content that you produce, right, it's like you're trying to help people age health in a healthy way, wise way, right? And that's what our products do. Like your wife points out, you don't have to go through this whole week or two of looking and feeling. It's like waging war on your skin to get it to look the way you want. You're going to use it and your skin's going to feel healthier in days, if not weeks, you know, for most people. Well, the first time. Yeah. You mentioned exosomes. I know this is like a big, like this is a big talking point now in which one of your products is high in the exosomes? Is it the, which one is this? So last year we brought to market two products, a new skincare serum called The Great and a new moisturizer called The Hydro Layer. The Hydro Layer, that's the one, okay. Yeah. Yeah. So both products have our new patent pending exosomes and we built those specifically for male skin. And so exosomes are really small and they're a delivery system. And what that means is they can go significantly deeper into your skin dermis to the places that really need the ingredients, right? And so that's what the exosomes do. The delivering. It's a delivery mechanism, right? And they can hold a tremendous amount of moisture and they can hold a tremendous amount of like fluid or moisture. I think it is, right? Right. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. All right. So, so you have the base layer, the hydro layer, the good, what are they all different or how are they all different? What are they all good for? Yeah. So when we first built the line with the, with the, the good and the base layer, it's for more drier skin, drier climates, right? But, you know, we missed out on a certain skin type, you know, which is more natural. And so as we started building the business and we were getting, you know, interest from our customers saying, Hey, you know, I have oily skin. I live in Miami. I can't really use your products because, you know, they're, they're built for, you know, more of a drier skin type of drier climate. Right. So, so that was one of the reasons why we started to go down the path of, okay, let's, let's build new products, but let's also add even more intensity of, of, of new biotech ingredients and, and, and continuing to advance the innovation forward. So that was the great and the hydro layer that we brought out last year that are crushing. Are they doing really well? They're crushing. How's the growth of the company been since you guys started? It's been exponential, you know, and this year we're having our best year. It's, you know, we're growing high double digits. Wow. You know, it's profitable. You know, we've tapped into this movement of, of longevity and self-optimization, wellness that, you know, guys are more into the, you know, taking care of themselves and self-care and skincare being that one piece, you know, to kind of finish it off, you know, converting men, you know, who, who've done all these things. Now skincare is like that last piece. So, so the business is, is tapped into that, that movement and the acceleration is, is really exciting. We skip the one product that I absolutely. I was just going to bring it up. We absolutely, I absolutely love. He raves. And always talk about, and I, I'm always telling these guys that they have to use it. More, uh, is the bar soap. Yes. Body bar. I have never had a natural bar soap lather that my biggest pet peeve of natural bars of soap is it feels like I'm doing nothing and I know the lather in, in the foam and toothpaste and I don't know, all that shit is made up to make you feel like you're getting cleaner or soapier, but it doesn't matter. There's something about it that I just, I like to feel it's a really thick, it's like a, yes, I'm so fascinated. I'm so fascinated about how you did that and why nobody else that has natural soaps can make a lather. What is that? I mean, you don't have to give away the secret if it's actually a super secret. It just goes to our core of our product development process. We take a long time to build products to make sure that they kick ass. Yeah. Right. And it's like, well, how do you make a bar of soap kick ass? Try it and you'll see how. Right. And so, you know, it took time. We took, we went to the best soap manufacturer in the industry and said, you know, we want to build the highest performing soap. In the market for men. And here's what we wanted to do. And here's the ingredients that we want in it. And here's what we don't want in it. And here's the experience that we want. And it took time to get there, you know, because these things, you know, when you, when you create them, you know, they have a different experience or they don't last long because you have all these, you know, ingredients in their own natural or these actives and stuff like that. And it changes colors. And so you have to go through iteration after iteration after iteration to get it right. And it took a very long time to get that bar. So does it, does it perform as well as I feel like it should, because I feel like it's my, one of my favorite things. It does talk about it. Yeah. Yeah. No, I mean, I have two more behind me that are, there's one right there. Yeah. It's coming home with me. I mean, I go through it. It's my favorite product. Yeah. Surprisingly, that is becoming one of the hottest sellers for us. Well, for me, I think that's what it is, is that I've forever, I like natural soaps. And so, and when we go different places, I always try different ones. And, and they're crazy expensive sometimes for these things that I try. And the thing that I always hate is that I, I feel like I'm just rubbing wax on my body. Right. I can't see anything. I'm not sure if I got any, but. I'm telling you off air, this guy who talks about your soap, we tease him, we tease him about it. Because I've never seen it. I've never, I've never, I've never seen natural soap like that, that, that lathers last as good as it does. Are you guys growing in the, in the, in the female market? Is that? Is that starting to grow? Because I can think of another brand that off the top of my head that went after men in a market that was like, everybody thought they were crazy and they blew up. And now they're reaching the female market as a result. Are you guys seeing that? Yeah. Yeah. We're absolutely seeing it. You know, whether they're buying it for themselves or for their partners, you know, we don't have that visibility. We know around like, you know, the holidays that happens a lot, but it is a growing percentage of our customer base. But the men side is, that's. It's a bread and butter. That's what really where, who we, who we're building product for, what makes us unique and, and where we're seeing the growth. Now, is there consideration though, to dabble on the other side? No, no, I think, I think we're going to stay in our lane. Yeah. Yeah. You know, when, when brands start to, to go off into different lanes and do all different types of products and things, I don't, we're never going to do supplements, you know, we're never going to start going to things that like, you know, we don't know that well, but maybe it's hot right now. And we're seeing other brands do it. You know, we've always been told by really smart investors and things like, you know, that once you see a brand start doing something, that's not quarter their, their, their, their brand. Yeah. Right. What brought them here. That means that something's not going well. Right. Right. They're getting desperate. They're just looking for, you know, LTV. Right. So anything in the future? Yeah. What are you, are you working on something that you can talk about? Yeah. Yeah. So body, we're going to continue to, to lean into, you're going to see more products there. Skincare. is going to be our core. That's always going to be our core of the brand. We're always going to be innovating, bringing the best ingredients, the formulations. We do some hair care as well, right? Oh, cool. But I think what you'll see next from us is a deodorant that's going to come out later this year that we've been working again on it for a very long time. We wanted to nail the experience of it. You know, wanted to put the highest quality ingredients in there and, you know, no white residue, you know, like the amazing scent, but being natural, you know. Oh, I can't wait to see that. You know, and so that's something that we're pretty excited about. But our skincare products, that's really where the real innovation in science is taking place. And then it's, I mean, you said you tested several podcasts. Our experience with our partners that have tested our podcasts, we tend to ruin the experience for them for a lot because nobody ever is like our audience. And so do you, are you with the same partner still? Is it? Or have you? Do you bounce around? Is it just us? Like, who else are you working with in the podcast space? Are you guys still testing that? What's that look like? We spend a lot in podcasts. Yeah, it's a nice channel for us. It's an authentic way to get in front of customers that we don't touch in social and in other means that we're advertising. And so, yeah, podcast is a very nice channel, but you guys are, you're number one. Yeah, it makes sense to be that way. Your audience is number one. Are you trying to renegotiate the contract or something? No. You've got a great partner. I mean, you're number two. Number two. He knows that would be life. Careful, you're doing a manhole. What's your top seller? Top seller is still the good. Okay. Our hero, our hero skill. Is it just because it's the hero and it's been around the longest or do you think it's just truly that it is the one that everybody? Yeah, we've built up a really big customer base with it. You know, it's been around since day one. It's, it's, you know, really what we put, you know, all our creativity and all our innovation into. But, you know, the great and hydro layer, you know, those are, those are coming up quite quickly. The ones that we launched last year. But our, our core skincare, you know, the, the top one. So, so, you know, the good, the base layer, our cleanser crushes it. You know, that, that's, that, that one's huge. You know, eye serum. Those are the products, you know, that, that drive the most volume for the customer. And that's exciting for us because, you know, as a brand, you're, you're, the score of your health of a brand is like, you know, how well are your core products doing in your core category? If that's doing well, then you're doing well as a, as a company. Well, I'm going to take it on as a personal goal to make the bar soap, a top three, because I think that that's the one that people are missing out on. I just think that I, first of all, I don't know any dudes that loofah or use any other body gel stuff. Most dudes are bar soap guys and it is the best bar soap I've ever used in my life. So, I mean, I'm going to, I got it. I got to say too, cause I know that like, uh, you know, you got the good, which is, uh, you know, kind of oil-based and you have the base, which is a little more matte and the hydro layer, which is kind of more, I've used all three of them. I actually use, I have all three of them at home and depending on which one is closer to me, that's the one I'll probably use. My skin is relatively oily. They all work great. And what that tells me as somebody that likes to look into the science of products and stuff is that they're all good for my skin. Right. So, like whether your skin's oily or dry, if you use something that improves the health of your skin, uh, it's going to, it's going to be okay. It's going to work. Whereas I think other products are like, this is for oily skin. This is for dry skin because it's almost like chemically forcing your skin to appear to be different. Whereas I can use any of your products. I can use any of them. Uh, and they all will look good on me. They all make my skin look better. My favorite is definitely the good, but they're all, they all work really great, which really speaks to the fact that you guys understand skin health. Do you get, uh, any feedback from, so, uh, it's been huge for me for my psoriasis. Um, I stopped using any steroid creams, anything like that whatsoever. And it's been incredible for that. Do you get feedback from a clientele that are using it similarly like that? Absolutely. Okay. Absolutely. Yeah. I think it's, I think it's great for that. I don't know. I know that sometimes with stuff like that, we're not allowed to say that there's laws and rules around that stuff. You know, people write in emails and they leave reviews and you know, just feel good about it. We can't promote it, but that's why I figured that you guys can't make, cause obviously I'm sure you would advertise it if you could. But I mean, I talk about that. That's what I use it for. And it's, it's been awesome to get away from any of those steroid cream. I've gotten messages from our listeners who've used your products, who have acne and it actually helped their acne, which is wild because you would not expect a moisturizer or a serum or anything like that to, to, you know, to do anything to acne. But again, I think it has to do with the, the skin's microbiome. Cause that has a profound effect. Yeah. Yeah. You get messages from people about that kind of stuff. Absolutely. Absolutely. That's wild. Yes. That's really, really crazy. Yeah. So where's, where's headquarters? So are you, are you based in, is the headquarters in Jackson? So we launched the company in Jackson and then we moved it into Austin, Texas in 21. Okay. Yeah. So now it's in Austin. Okay. Yeah. And then what's the team look like now? Do you have, I mean, I know you built your in-house team. You guys at right now? We have a little over 20. Okay. Nice. Nice. Over 20 and a bunch of consultants. Most everybody in house. Everyone's so, so we don't have an office in Austin. Everyone's virtual, but our employees are employees and they, they work, you know, they live in throughout the country. But yeah, it's a small but mighty team, you know, they're, they're super talented and everyone, you know, loves the brand. They believe in the brand. They are part of the product development process. They see like how long it takes and how complicated, how sophisticated it is to actually build these products, how we test them, all these clinical trials that we do for all the top ones, you know, so they, they, they know that we're just not like a marketing company. They know that we're actually a skincare company building real product, real innovation, you know, and then we've learned the, how to market them well, you know, and how to find a customer. Is your typical consumer, obviously guy interested in health, fitness, wellness, age, age range, 35 to 45. Is that what I would guess? Yeah, you know, 35 to 70 is kind of that range, but 40 to 60 is kind of like our, our, our sweet spot. Yeah. Cause you know, when you're in your thirties, you can still get away with using, you know, little to no products, you know, just maybe just a cleanser, maybe it's a bar of soap, you know, and then your skin starts getting a little dry and you maybe start using your body lotion on your face. You know, I did that, you know, I know a lot of guys do it, you know, and then, and then you start to think about, well, shit, you know, I'm starting to see stuff happen. Maybe I'll try something a little better. And you because I loved, I've brought that up several times on the show. It's on your website and it talks about, it's like 90%, it was like over 90% of the participants saw like these pretty dramatic improvements and things like fine lines, wrinkles, skin quality. Are those expensive to run? Like how long did the trial, was it 30 days, 60 days? Yeah. So for our first one, it was somewhere between like 60 and 90 days or something to that effect. Right. And we had, I don't know, 40 plus individuals. And we didn't, you know, we don't have any relationship with them. The lab's the one who engages with them. They're, they're very expensive. They're very risky, you know, because you get bad results. Exactly. You know, we, we, you know, the first one we ran, we had none of us on the team have had ever run a clinical trial. Right. So we were just like, okay, you know, sweating, rolling the dice, but you know, we, we knew we had a good product, you know, based on, you know, giving it to friends and family and stuff. And, and so, yeah, we went through that whole process of testing it, uh, through clinical results and, you know, they do the instrumentation studies, the surveys, all that stuff. And then you get the data back and, and, you know, you're, you're kind of holding your breath and, and it came back incredible from that point. How many trials now have you done? Have you done two? I think we've done three or four. Okay. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. So anybody listening, you could go look up the, if you like data, that's the trials will show you that this, uh, it's, uh, they, the, you mentioned the price point of the, of the good, it lasts forever. You only need like a drop of that to cover your whole face. So that's the part that's probably deceiving about the, about the price. And I think if somebody who might see it and go, wow, that's really expensive, it lasts a long time too. Yeah. So you get a lot out of that at least a month, you know, for many people it's like two months. Oh yeah. If you get, if you're using it daily and quite, you'll, you'd still last a month. If you every other day or whatever, it'll, it'll stretch out much longer than that. Were you, did you, uh, bootstrap or anything? Are you self-funded or did you guys take on money? So I, I self-funded it and then I got a profitable, uh, and in 2024, we did a series a small series a that we raised any plans to still take investments. Are you still trying to scale and grow? What's the, you know, we're, we're, you know, fortunate enough to be, you know, profitable and growing fast and being able to manage it all on our own right now. We have a lot of, you know, high quality blue chip investors reaching out, but I think the, the, at this point is to, to keep our heads down and continue focusing on building the best brand we can. Yeah. Yeah. At some point, you know, that might happen, you know, where we, you know, look to, to, to really scale it even, even more so than, than it is now, but you know, we're in a good position where we don't need it. Yeah. That's awesome. And when's Nordstrom? When does that start? So we launched in May. Oh, you did? We launched in May. How's it going? It's going great. Really? Yeah. We're, we're one of the top, uh, men's brands. They're telling us we're, we're potentially number two. Oh my gosh. Yeah. Good for you. Thank you. That's huge. - It's huge, man. - Yeah, it's exciting. - It's a big risk. - Now, was this a test, just a couple, and then, could go nationwide or did you go all the way so we went into uh 30 like 33 stores in their top markets you know and um you know they've they've really partnered with us to be their their top you know one of their top men's brand launches for this year and so it's been exciting we just launched in their flagship in new york city and it went incredibly well you know we brought in estheticians and you know we didn't know if we're going to be able to get people from off the street to come in and get facials and they were they were coming in it was pretty pretty damn wild you know and uh it was an exciting launch well i love i love hearing uh success stories like yours i love hearing about success stories from entrepreneurs with a good purpose and passion behind what they're doing and uh we have a special connection because we started with you kind of early on so it's been great to see you know kind of the start the small company we're working with and now i i see you guys everywhere people talking about you so it's really cool to hear about all this and i think you're this is like the beginning i think you guys are gonna keep just crushing which is kind of cool and expect more competitors i think you've created a new market there are a lot of competitors yeah because you've kind of you've shown people now that there's a market here that's right which is a good news it just it is good news you want competition absolutely bring more awareness to you guys that's right yeah that's what it's doing awesome well thanks for coming thanks for the partnership thanks for having me thank you for listening to mind pump if your goal is to build and shape your body dramatically improve your health and energy and maximize your overall performance check out our discounted rgb super bundle at mindpumpmedia.com the rgb super bundle includes maps anabolic maps performance and maps aesthetic nine months of phased expert exercise programming designed by sal adam and justin to systematically transform the way your body looks feels and performs with detailed workout blueprints and over 200 videos the rgb super bundle is like having sal adam and justin as your own personal trainers but at a fraction of the price the rgb super bundle has a full 30-day money-back guarantee and you can get it now plus other valuable free resources at mindpumpmedia.com if you enjoy this show please share the love by leaving us a five-star rating and review on itunes and by introducing mind pump to your friends and family we thank you for your support and until next time this is mind pump