The State of the WNBA, the Valkyries, and Caitlin Clark With Michael Voepel

[MUSIC] Welcome to the Ringer WNBA Show. I'm so excited today because a fan favorite, a Ringer favorite, a me favorite, Michael Vogel of ESPN is talking to us today. I flagged him down at a fever game. I bully him and I said, Michael, we let you back, everybody loves you. Michael, thank you so much for making the time today. How are you? Hey, I'm glad to do it. Thank you. If my dog makes an unwanted guest appearance, please forgive me for that. So she might, she's sleeping right now, but she's never unwanted. But it's like that is actually just like a rule of this podcast. Anytime, like I would actually rather you woke her up and I want to know what she thinks. She was a little upset like I was that there were no runs to her by the National League. In the baseball all-star game last night, we were, we were, we were National League fans here, but she has watched so much sports with me. Occasionally, she will just go upstairs, right? So just go upstairs and go to bed and say, I don't need anymore. Honestly, she probably knows more about basketball than both of us combined, at this point. I would not be, I would not be surprised. I told you, the older I get, the less I feel like that. I feel terrible. You do have to work, cognition, I realize, is something that you have to work on at a half to a certain point. You know, Autumn, I feel like when you're, when you're younger, you, you pick things up like a sponge, but now it really takes some focus. I'll have days where I've, like I've watched a whole game and I shouldn't say this before the start of a podcast, but I've watched a whole game and I'm like, what happened? I couldn't tell you. It happens. However, today's game had been super interested and I think you, you as well. We'll talk about a bunch of stuff today. We'll talk Kathy. We'll talk some links, but we want to start with the Indiana fever, take on the Golden State Valkyries in a game where I think I have two major takeaways and we can start wherever you want. The Valkyries on our eight game win streak and I think that the thing that stuck out to me most is Kia Stokes being the defensive player of the year in the first half and Janelle Solon being the closer in a second. It just feels like they have found a perfect alchemy with those two roles, although I do wonder if maybe we ramp one up a little bit. We can get into that. Otherwise, like there's a fever side of it where the big three play pretty well, but it just, it doesn't feel like they're getting much out of anybody else outside of Sophie right now. So I'll let you take it away, where do you want to start? I think those are really good, those are really good summations of these teams and I've been really impressed with Golden State this whole season and I think I choked with you that, you know, I've had this throughout the season that whoever I put number one in the power rankings immediately loses, but Golden State has defied the power rankings jinx now for two weeks in a row. Natalie Nakase is a great coach and she has this team playing in a way that they dictate pace play and that's one thing Caitlin Clark said. After the game was, we played into their hands and they make you do that. They are a team that, you know, they're perfectly fine and they're one of the few WMBA teams that can say, yeah, we can score in the 60s and win a game and most WMBA teams don't feel that way. So really enjoy the way the Golden State's playing and honestly, they're doing it without and they hate this. So I've almost hesitant to say it, but you think they don't have the quote unquote big stars, but that doesn't mean they don't have extremely good players and they play well. The fever's, you know, they'll talk about inconsistency, but I almost think that's been more the theme of the entire WMBA this season and a part of that is just how good the league is. It is hard and that almost, you know, it makes Golden State's streak even more impressive to me because it's it's hard to put together an A game winning streak. Yeah, absolutely. I think one thing that also makes it easier for the Valkyries against the fever to be able to dictate the pace is that they're just a really bad matchup for them. Now Caitlin today, like Caitlin today only had four turnovers, which is pretty good for her. So don't want to single her out, but I do think that the Valkyries are the type of team or ones they start forcing turnovers. They can just start beating you in transition, which is really what they want to do. They want to get to the rim. They want layups. They want threes and they want transition points. They are one of the most efficient transition teams in the entire WMBA. They know how to turn your mistakes into easy offense right away. And then the other thing is in the fourth quarter. You know, I know that they don't have the traditional quote unquote score or closer, but I think that she's hiding in their bench. She's Janelle Salon. She is the sixth woman of the year front runner right now. 13 points per game leading all players that are coming off the bench. But she's also the best top shot maker in the league, like purse energy. She has gotten more points off of tough buckets than anybody else in the WMBA. So they do have their closer. Their closer is just kind of, well, she's coming off the bench because Kia Stokes is incredible defensively. And she was today. Like, I think part of the reason that the fever got off to a slow start in this game is because they were really trying to feature Ilya Boston. Featuring Ilya Boston, though, means getting Kia Stokes into the action. And Kia was just not letting Boston get comfortable. And really is one of the only players that I've seen one-on-one be able to make Ilya Boston as uncomfortable as she did. So it's like a really interesting kind of alchemy for them. And I do wonder what you think about this because there's a world in which there are different teams. There are non-natalinacostae teams in which Janelle Salon is a starter and has been a starter for, you know, the last year and a half or so. Right. And by the numbers, they are significantly better with the starter with the starters. That's a lineup that they close the fever out with today. And the fever couldn't do anything on offense because of three-point. It's like the flood, the flood calms at a certain point with the Valkyries. From the three-point line, but Janelle hits two really difficult threes after like even in the third, she hit a really difficult banker as well. She's shooting 40% from three this season. There are 34 points for a hundred possessions better when she's in the starting lineup over Stokes. That's despite Stokes being incredible defensively because as you also watch in this game, they are trying to find ways to make Stokes useful in the offensive end. They're letting her take these threes, right? They're kind of in this process right now where you, I don't know if you need to make a lineup change. I almost wonder if setting the tone with one on the defensive end and then closing with the other is actually the platonic ideal of a Valkyries game. It is something to watch, but right now it's working really well for them. Yeah, you're a hundred percent right and that whole idea of their second unit being so good. I think there's two things. Yeah, the second unit's good so it means you don't really get a let up with them, you know, depending on who's out there, they're really consistent in terms of their effort and their ability for points to come from anywhere. Caitlin Chen had a really good second half tonight and we've seen her have some really big games over the year. But when you get down against them, good luck because I mean the fever are pretty good at rallying. You know, they've showed that again. Admittedly, like against Phoenix, Phoenix is not as good a team as as Golden State, but but they rallied a couple of times in that game one. It's getting out of a hole. Yeah, it's climbing out of a hole and they were in multiple holes tonight and they they kept trying, but you're just not going to you're not going to get that many, like if you want to calm free possessions or extra possessions against a team like Golden State because they are so good on defense and and they're really disciplined, you know, through the entire game. So yeah, it's a bad matchup and and you know, as you know, it's also a really bad matchup for Atlanta, you know, they law a reasonable matchup for a team and you know, the short game and that's another team that can put a ton of points on the board and and really had a hard time doing it against Golden State. Yeah, definitely. I mean, I think they're a bad matchup for just about every team in the league except for the two that are ahead of them in the aces and the and the links, right? Like the aces definitely seem to have their number. They're actually tied against the standings, but the aces do have the tiebreaker now. And then with Minnesota, it's just like, you know, like there's the Olivia Miles factor and the fact that Cheryl Reeve, who we'll talk about later is just if if Natalie, Natalie Nakasi is a great coach and Cheryl Reeve is an incredible one, right? I am curious what you made of the fever's end of all of this, right? Like if there is a if there's like the strength in numbers with the Valkyries, right? The fact that they have a deep bench, then if you look at the Indiana fever, their problem might be that they're a little too top heavy right now. Caitlin Clark is playing on a minutes restriction, but she had a pretty good game. She did have actually, let's hit on this first actually. So second quarter, she drives against Kia Stokes. And then she comes down and is limping and she's holding onto her hamstring. And then she leaves for the locker room. She comes back. She does have finish the game and she's seems like she's fine in general because she's taking logo three is what you she doesn't do unless she has power in her legs and she's also driving to the rim. I think that's kind of like one of the places where the fever found some daylight against a big and rural coverage was driving against a rim. And I do wonder if on a level Nicasi's plan was let's try to make them do that and then see what happens, like if they if they can just not get worn out by that, right? But after the game, she, oh, she says, you know, you can't miss that. She looks pretty frustrated and she says, you know, she gets need in the hamstring. She has to play the rest of the game with a hamstring contusion. She's in this funny place right now where she's clearly not loving that she's on a minute's restriction, but she's also picking up a new injury at the same time playing through it, looking good. I'm just curious like what you've made what you made of that. I think she's a little frustrated overall. She, it's always tough when you have a back injury. I just, I think that's one of the toughest injuries in all the sports because you don't know how you're going to feel day to day. And you could even not know minute to minute, obviously, you know, we've seen players like Elena Dela Don that that shortened her career. And she would say like when she'd wake up, she just wasn't sure how she would feel. And I think that's, now Caitlyn's had two years where she's had injuries, it was different injuries last year, but whenever there's a back injury and leg injuries, I tend to think they a lot of times they have a lot to do with each other, you know, that one unfortunately makes the other worse and vice versa. So I think she was frustrated, she's frustrated about the minute's restriction and probably frustrated about, you know, like that she doesn't feel like she's able to get into a flow as herself as quickly, you know, in terms of the injury and how, you know, how she feels about it. I mean, I think she's going to, as we know, she's going to advocate for herself. A lot of people get upset about that or whatever. I just think she's going to advocate for herself and the rest are going to make of that, you know, what they will. But I think if she's able to get more consistent minutes, you'll see some of that frustration going away. I really think that's mostly where that frustration is coming from. She just really wants to be out there playing full time and it's not quite there. Yeah. I mean, she had 26 minutes today and then she has to leave, although I think she was kind of towards the end of her shift. One thing that I thought was really interesting and you have to like, if you're a fever fan, you also have to even like tip your hat to if you're the coaching staff in Stephanie White is that she waited to complain until the dead ball and she held in a lot of mental frustration and so that moment, but she is no longer in this place where she is not finishing defensive possessions or not running back on the floor and transition. I do feel like she is at this place where she has started to take the defensive side of the ball really seriously. And she even had a couple of really nice steals like there was a one that the one the steel that led to the Aliyah Boston three from the behind the back pass, like those are sort of the showtime fever things that you are starting to see. So this is an interesting team right now, right? Like they have strung together some consistent basketball. They have sort of started to find an identity on the defensive end. And you also had this game where, you know, I think Aliyah struggled a little bit, but Kelsey Mitchell was on fire to start the game. I think she accounted for 15 of like if you include sort of like tip ins and you know, like hockey assists, like she was the offense, right in the first quarter. I think Natalie Nicosia also made a fantastic adjustment putting Gabby Williams on her one on one. I think that kind of like stopped the stop the flooding there and you know, had tip to Nicosia's in-game adjustments, one of the best in the game. But you know, Kelsey has a good game. Caitlin has, you know, I think probably would like to have made more threes. Yeah. But you know, like it's, it's I think the larger point here is that like they all were present and accounted for and like at least like 75% of themselves. Like Lexi Hall, two points as a starter, mobileings, four points as a starter and really just not not fast enough. I think to keep up, you know, there's one play where she she rolls and gets a pass from Clark, but she just can't outrun Stokes. Now, maybe you don't want to continue to run so many actions where Kia Stokes is involved. But this has been a bit of a theme throughout the course of the season. Like I do think that on the offensive end, like I just think Moe has had a harder time adjusting. And then off the bench, you have Soapie who has 10 points, you could put her in the starting lineup, but then I think the bench is a little bit rudderless. Maybe Ty Harris is the answer to your problems, right? Like her, her coming along. But really, you have one team in the Valkyries that like you trust 10 players and you have one team in the Indian, Indiana fever where like, you know, KK Timson is now starting to turn into a player you trust, but you trust seven and a half players, really. And that to me seems like the biggest problem right now. Yeah, I think it is. And they're, you know, the most consistent threat all season has been Kelsey Mitchell. And just as they're pretty much game in and game out, but it is difficult when you have starters who are not really offensive threats. And, you know, Alexi Hall earns her way in the WNBA because she just plays so hard. And she is a good defensive player. She's an energy player, but she's not, you know, she is an elite offensive player. And it just becomes harder and harder in this league to win games when you have some players that are in your starting lineup that aren't going to consistently score. And I think that's, again, then when you have a team like Holden states it's so good at, you know, at finding, okay, this is where, this is a weak point that we can, you know, that we can take advantage of and can even, you know, that's a, you mentioned adjustments. I mean, there are things that you see them do in games. You're like, okay, that's brilliant, you know, that's, I mean, that's why she's the coach, you know, because she sees these things so well. It's actually funny. I, I hadn't thought about it before, but even when you think about it, you know, culturally, or like there's a team building aspect of it too, the Valkyries are very heavy on international players. They are very deep. They don't have really that star player, Gabby Williams is in all star. She's an all star starter and deservedly so. And she is isolating more. She's not the most efficient isolation player though. And what makes her great is not the sort of typical star stuff. And then you have three stars on the fever that, you know, all of them, I think you can make the case, they could all lead their own team. And they are kind of their polar opposites of each other in that sense, and then there's also the cultural aspect of it too, where they might, they might be on opposite ends of the cultural pool as well. I won't force you to comment on that. However, I do wonder what you think about the notion of the fever building a top heavy team and succeeding this way, and whether what you feel about that in the modern WNBA, especially as there's more talent coming into the league, because we did see the ACEs pulled it off last year. They had a big three that didn't have a lot of depth. But I wonder if the new salary cap constricts that somewhat, especially because you can, you can't allow unlimited max contracts, I don't know that you want to. That's exactly what you said about the ACEs being able to do it, but they've also done it before. You know, like they, it is harder when you're trying to both do something individually and do something. I know the franchise, you know, won a championship, but that was, you know, 14 years ago. And when you're trying to do that versus what I think, what we see from the ACEs, and certainly what we saw last year, because last year is a fascinating season from the standpoint of the ACEs were a hot mess for a lot of the season. And August came, they got clobbered on August 2nd, just blown out. Yeah. They didn't lose again. This is the regular season, it was like, they could flip that switch and they do have the best player in the world without, in my mind, without question. And they have a coach who's won championships, but it is tough when you have, you don't have the depth, because like, it's not like you need the depth every night, but when you need it and you don't have it, it really hurts you, I think. So, and they're still, you know, one thing I do try, and I think we all, those of us, and you have done this yourself, you've watched this league for so many years, you do make some comparisons to other situations, and the situation, you know, of having backed back, number one picks, how long that's taken for other franchises, it is usually a three or four year period. Are we going to, you know, how far can the E.V. go this year? They do sometimes have a little bit of one step forward and then a little bit of one step back, but are they able to, you know, they, they weren't that far realistically from making the finals last year, even the same Taylor Clark, but are they able to make more progress this year or at least get as far and then go to the next step? I know that's a bigger picture thing with them, but I do try to keep that history in mind of how this has worked with other franchises that have had back-to-back number one picks. - Oh, absolutely, that's a really good point. It's also a long regular season, right? We are just at the halfway point of it, and there's still so much time for this team to figure things out, and I think a lot of their issues are really just the fact that they haven't really been able to rep out Caitlyn with everybody else. There was a play that I talked about on last week's, like the last podcast we had on Monday, where Kelsey Mitchell is isolating and Caitlyn's coming around to screen at the same time, and it's kind of like they're running two different offenses. Now that same thing happened at the start of this game. However, this time, Kelsey found Caitlyn for the curl to drive, and Caitlyn missed a shot, but it's kind of these sort of like small progressions, more so than big things that I think can kind of tell the story of like a team starting to progress, and I do sort of like see those micro things from the fever. At the same time, I also see some macro problems, but the ACEs had macro problems. The thing is in the WNBA right now, there's so much parity that you can't really, like it's too early to really judge any team as far as like their championship merits right now. So we have to wait and see. The other thing though is that I do wonder if the new CBA and the epic provision have sort of curtailed the timeline for the fever from a cap perspective, because Alia got maxed and she's gotten the most lucrative max contract of any player, and Kelsey got a super max, granted that one's only one year, and then Caitlin is up next. So to a lot of your cab, that's gonna be going towards three players. And then the other aspect of it is that the injuries with Caitlin is something you wouldn't have been able to predict, but I almost, I mean, to make an NBA comparison, it's reminding me now a little bit of LeBron James with the Cavaliers where he was so good, so fast, that the cabs started thinking about the present and title contention right away. And they started trying to build a team to win right away. When the reality is that like yes, LeBron was the most talented player we had seen in a very long time, however, there were just nuances of the game that he hadn't picked up yet. So he could lead a team to the finals in 2007, but he wasn't ready to lead them all the way. Like he ran into a spurs team that had the experience and defensive coverages and made him have to go back to the drawing board and really fully develop. And I think that Caitlin is still so early in her part of the like journey here that she's sort of in this place where she's still figuring out like you're seeing her take these early clock mid-range jumpers, right? Which, you know, from a results perspective, you just don't love because they're not efficient shots and they're early in the shot clock, but what you see is a young player that's still sort of building out so many aspects of her game. And it feels like that timeline is not even with her sort of figuring out like how to talk to referees stuff. And I think she's progressing on those things, especially when you consider the injuries as fast as she possibly could, but these things just take time. Like most of the time you have to lose before you win. And it just feels like things are a little bit out of place with this fever team in that sense. That's all true. And, you know, I'm probably, I'm just going to dive into this. I am very fond of Caitlin Clark. I've covered her since she was a freshman. I think she's a terrific kid. And I understand a lot of people, you know, want this from her, they want that from her. I just think it's hard when you've got that much on you. And, you know, we've seen other players that have a lot on them from the very beginning. And it can be challenging to deal with that. I am just a lot more, I mean, honest, I'm just a lot more willing to give her grace on some of the things she does that, you know, people, well, she complains a lot. Well, Diana Tarasi complained a lot and never saw it. And this means she's not, you know, one of the greatest players of all time. I think we all kind of hope that Caitlin will, in some ways, sort of understand where you mentioned earlier of their work, their times when maybe she let a defensive possession go because she was upset about a call or not getting a call. And I think she's made a lot of progress on that and will continue to make progress on that. So I think we've never had anybody have a spotlight on them like this before the WMBA. And I think she generally handles it really, really well. And that's where I kind of, you know, like I said, I just, it does, I'm not going to lie. It does some of the, just like, real negativity that people, I'm telling people that I like who I think are really good at the WMBA analysts are so almost angry at her all the time. And that's, I don't think that's a really productive way, you know, I can't feel like there's any player, I've covered the league since the beginning. I'd kind of feel like I'm angry at a player for anything. It's like they all grow at different levels. And everybody has different challenges. Some people are, you know, a mile more came in and I think she was just so ready, but she also had a lot of really good sets around her. And so I think that's ultimately, you know, I think she's still is doing a great job and really is a great thing for the WMBA. And I know not everybody feels that way and that makes me sad, honestly, because I do think she's a huge asset to the league. Yeah, well, I think it goes back to what you said, right? Like everybody wants her to be this or that. And I think that we are in an era in because of social media, I think partially because of the way that the WMBA has become the place that we talk about everything that people don't want to talk about, but is like kind of at the top of their minds, you know, so it's a league where people are projecting a lot of their general feelings about society. I also think that this is a culture that mediates too much politically through individual identity. I also, there's an irony to that too, because I do think that a lot of the people who aren't fans of how Caitlyn Clark goes about her public persona are also the types of people who would believe that things like racism and homophobia and misogyny are structural and institutional and collective problems that require collective structural solutions. So there's a disconnect there when all of that anger then just gets projected onto one person who is by the way deeply uncontroversial as an actual human being. As a symbol, she is incredibly controversial and the gap between the person and the symbol and the way that people talk about her is something that constantly astounds me and all. Say like, you know, what I'm going to say, I'm not saying it from a place of pride. Like I am proud of the things that I write, absolutely. However, this maybe, this probably causes more dread in me than pride, but the last like in the last three weeks, I've written two articles about Caitlyn and the place that she occupies in the political sphere and the WNBA. Both of those articles in the midst of NBA free agency, a Jalen Brown trade on a website that by the way, Bostonians are clicking on. We have the World Cup. We have, where's LeBron going? Both of those articles were for days on end the most red things on the site. This is a sports website. This is a site that a lot of people read. You have like great movies coming out. You've got like, like, House of the Dre again, like things that we do. I like cool, hey, like, there's obviously a like a obvious benefit to that for me, right? At the same time, like, what the fuck? You know, like, what is going on? It is interesting. And I'm sure you, like, you deal with the same things, right? You know, we don't, we don't do a lot of commentary at ESPN, we used to. And that's something we haven't done now for the last several years. And that's, you know, it's a real editorial decision from the top down. And we mostly do news and rankings. Boy, do we do a lot of rankings, right? Like that is just a thing that it's a, it's a click thing. And I don't, I mean, I don't think any of my bosses would get mad about that. I do think in our roles now, it's a getting people. people's attention. And we, as a staff, and then when I talk to colleagues like yourself, we're a lot of times very, I don't want to be over dramatic, but we are concerned and stressed out sometimes about, you know, the conversations, what you just said I think was so eloquent that she is, Caitlin is a, I really feel good and she's a very good human being. And I don't think she ever imagined that she would turn into almost like a lightning rod for what feels like a culture war in the country. And you know, I'm a Midwesterner and I've spent almost all my life in the Midwest and I have tons and tons of friends in Iowa and I've spent so much time in Iowa. She is in Iowa and I don't mean to stereotype, but in some way, I don't think, you know, the Iowa way is not necessarily thinking you're going to be at the center of attention of anything. And so I think this all kind of came at her like she grew up with this idea. Like a lot of kids too. Like boy, wouldn't it be great to be famous and great and get a lot of attention. And boy, there are a lot of weight that comes with that that you'd never know about until you're in those shoes. And so I think you what you said is very eloquent because covering the sport, honestly, you almost try to not talk about constantly because, you know, you I don't want to put that weight on her. And yet, whatever you write, there we are, people are, yeah, whatever you write, people are going to ask you about her. I have relatives who, honestly, they're dear people to me, but they never paint attention on this basketball, but they know who she is. And she's literally the only person, you know, that I write about that they know who she is. So yeah, but they're in the same boat. Like my parents read my Katelyn Clark article, like they read everything, but they don't understand everything, right? Like when I write a Katelyn Clark article, they understand it. Like that's there's just there's just a difference there. Yeah, it's, I mean, gosh, it must be such a weird thing for her to, I think like just being at that age too is I think that the first moments where you really start to realize that there aren't adults in the room. And that probably goes for the WNBA more than anything else, but also just like dealing with that reality of the thing that you dreamed of is not maybe is, you know, I find for everything she imagined as far as like loving basketball and competing and all those things, but comes with so many other things that you just didn't ever consider when you were younger. And as much as she lives in a, in a bubble that nobody else could understand, I think those two things are probably deeply relatable to anybody. Yeah. And there's the Iowa aspect of it too, where like I feel like this is something that a public figure is just kind of no longer allowed, but I do feel like everybody should have the right to contribute and enter the world. However, they are the most comfortable with. And if you're not the most vocal person, I don't think that should be like a black mark on you. You know, I think that like we've also heard of so many times where she's tried to do things behind the scenes for the players as well. And of course, her voice is powerful. I do understand the argument, well, like the platform is probably the most powerful thing that she has. I think that's a little bit more, I think that perspective is a little bit like tilted because of just the way we view celebrity and, and news and PR and maybe the impact isn't quite as great as people would like to think. Maybe like I do still feel like action is still the most important thing, but with her, I just feel like she's just, I think she's just trying to find a way to be herself in this. And it seems hard. Yeah. Yeah. I've known Steph White, you know, since she was 18 and Steph and I had a conversation last year where she said exactly that, that Caitlin is still figuring out, how do I use my, my voice beyond, beyond, and I don't want to sound bit, beyond the platitudes that all female athletes have. I've been powering women and, you know, we want to sign autographs for little kids and all that. Those are all wonderful things, but then there's all these much more complicated issues. And, you know, there's been some people have said to me, well, you know, not every player has the, you know, has the luxury of not speaking out. And, and I do understand different, different people and different sports and depending on what their situation is, maybe feel like they have to do that sooner. But, you look at some of the older players who became really good spokespeople. Yeah. And, super, it is a good example of this. Somebody who now really speaks out about a lot of issues. Sue will be the first to tell you she did not do that for the first decade of her career at least. He wanted to just be a basketball player, just, you know, do her thing. She didn't want to be in the middle of any controversy or say anything controversial. And, it took a while for her to find her voice. Now, that was at a little bit different time because obviously there's no social media when she started it, but yeah. And that's what gives you the luxury of being able to develop as a human being. Yeah. Like, that's, they always say that like a lot of famous people get trapped at the age that they were when they were famous. And, I think that's probably more true now than ever in the social media area. But, sorry, go on. No, I think you're right. And I'm, I'm, somebody, I'm, I'm really empathetic to the idea of I remember what I was like when I was 24. What I was like, you know, how I would have reasoned through things. And if I had a temperamental reaction to something or if I was more measured in my reaction. And, and when you cover sports, you're constantly being reminded of what it's like to be that age because you're around young people all the time. And, and so I'm, I am more empathetic, um, and it's harder for them to mess up now. Yeah. The way that, that, you know, that it, maybe you could mess up. And, and, you know, this isn't just athletes. I mean, this is kids in general. And, uh, you know, I wouldn't, I don't know how I would have, yeah, with it, you know, even though, you know, just being a regular normal person, let alone somebody's actually, you know, well known or celebrity, I don't know how I would have dealt with it. Social media at that. I sometimes think I barely, you know, do, I, I, it's hard enough as a non-famous adult. Like, yeah, you worry about like something that you would say that would be completely innocuous, that somebody would take in the wrong way. And then you're, you know, that you're trying to dig your way out of it when you didn't even mean anything about it. So, yeah. Absolutely. Which happens all the time. And then you feel misunderstood. And that sucks. And then you're like, yeah, about that. But I'm ultimately we're, we're two not famous adults like, yes, that's the crazy thing. I don't know. I don't know how you deal with fame. Yeah. It's, I, I'm very empathetic to it. I'm empathetic to the idea that, um, you know, that the players, the players are sort of almost constantly, um, they're having to battle like you said, some sort of societal ill in a lot of ways. And we see that. And, you know, on, on the daily, in certain ways. And so you know that that, that can take a toll on people. Um, so if that sounds like I'm, and I think I am a lot of times, I'm, I'm empathetic to a lot of the different sides and a lot of the different debates that are happening. But it can be very, um, the amount of anger and, and lack of just let's take it down a notch and try to remember. Yeah. Probably everybody, everybody, they're really matters in the, in these conversations. Yeah. But it cares deeply about this. Yeah. The, the, the last thing I'll say on this and I think we'll eventually try to steer to basketball is, uh, you know, I, you met, you mentioned that there are some people who've said, like, like, not everybody has a luxury to speak out, right? Or to not speak out. And while I totally understand where that comes from, I also feel like that is a result of the fact that there is unfair pressure. I think on black players, on queer players, to speak out, um, when that might not necessarily be in their personality either or to be representative of a, of a, of a certain thing that people have, like, kind of put them on a pedestal of being, right? And I don't really feel like that's fair either because I feel like no matter what your identity is, you should be able to just enter the world and be who you want to be, right? And it's ironic because I think some, that's a lot of what the goal of a lot of these things is to create for, create space for people to be able to do that. But you even look at something like, for example, the stud buds, right? Like, I think when the stud buds happen, it was like this watershed moment in WNBA history because you had this, these two players who fit this demographic mold of being in black, being queer, being masculine, and living in in all three of those things very authentically and organically. And that being the thing that people, not just WNBA fans, but mainstream sports fans, non-sports fans, even all connected to, and they became this phenomenal. Like just, this was just a year ago, and they're still sort of like I was, I was watching a game with, was watching the Seattle game with my girlfriend earlier. And she's like, oh, is that one of the stud buds? She doesn't know anything about it. Like the WNBA, you know, like that's, like they have had this like, this poll on people as well. And it was like, while I do think that there's like validity to, you know, critiquing within your own identity group, at the same time, it's like seeing some of the critiques of the stud buds because they were decidedly, not politically correct, or the most, you know, progressive in the way that they went about dating is to put it, to put it lightly. Seeing that critique, it really made me think because it's like, like, yeah, like, yeah, there's ways that, you know, like, I don't like, and I'm not saying this from a morally superior way. I'm just like, yeah, there's like things that, you know, Courtney Williams says sometimes that make me cringe, sure. But at the same time, like she has a right to be, however she wants to be. And isn't that kind of the whole point? Like what are we, it just gets to a place where you just start to want like, what are we doing here? Like what is the point of this critique if it gets to a place where you can't even allow people that fit within the exact demographic mold that you have wanted to see, be lifted up the way that they have been lifted up. Well, now you see them being who they actually are and they don't fit, like, the pedestal you put them on and that has to be punished too. Like it's just, it's very limiting. Yeah. And what you said earlier about the idea that there are these really big topics, if you will, that sometimes people get angry at one person about these type of topics. I do think, excuse me, I've talked a lot of people, I do think that can be something that, again, if you pull back a little bit and understand that the anger sometimes that's directed is, it's anger, the anger is righteous who it's directed at is really mad. Exactly, yeah. It's an institutional failure. Yeah. It's societal, like, you can be all of these demographic groups. You're still gonna grow up in a world that is misogynistic and that is, you're still gonna internalize that somehow, you know, so, okay, let's, (laughs) let me, let me, I mean, I'm not even gonna try to do a clean pivot here, it's impossible. I really wanted to ask you, do you think the Valkyrie should make a deal at the deadline or do you think that they should write out with a team that they have? My, it's interesting, my thought right now, after watching them tonight, is that I really like to see them to have. It would depend on, obviously, like, what they, let me ask you this, what would be the one thing you would most want? Because to me, that's how you decide if you're gonna make a deal, is there one thing you really want? And if so, what are you willing to give up for as opposed to a general sense of, do we need to make a move? Yeah, well, I think the argument has been with this team that they don't have the closer. I personally believe that Janelle Salon can be that closer and she already on some level is. And this game was probably the best example of it. I've complained in the past that I don't think she gets enough opportunities in crunch time. That's a real adjustment I'd make for the Valkyries. There are trades out there, certainly. Yeah. We'll see what happens with the Sparks, Kelsey Plum, obviously a superstar player, leads the league still. Still, despite the fact that she's only played 12 games, she leads the league in isolation points. She is incredible. She is on an epic tear. And the Valkyries like to play a lot of isolation. She has a relationship with Natalie Nakassi. I'm pretty sure they tried to kick the tires on her both these years, right? At least definitely the year before. I don't know about this year. I think this year might have been a little different. However, that's a player that fits. At the same time, I do wonder what it would cost asset-wise, like which players they would have to send back. If they'd have to send back a pick, it's really hard to gauge with the Sparks right now. I don't really, I think since they fired Reagan, it's really difficult to tell which direction they want to go in. I think that's sort of a league-wide question. I'm like, I don't know of what you're hearing. I'm just hearing nobody knows. That's kind of where things seem to be with the Sparks. That's like one. But I kind of feel like Stan Pat, because you can make a pitch at her in free agency. And part of the reason the Sparks are even in this dilemma is because they rushed their process. They could have waited to pitch Kelsey Plum in free agency. They traded the number two pick to get her a year early. I don't know if I necessarily want to repeat that mistake. There's other players, Jackie Young, as I think somebody who would be great with them. Nekka would be great if we're going to go back to the Sparks and maybe a trade there. And you know, there's still the biggest fish in the sea in the Fisa Collier that they could try to go after this summer, too. So I feel like Stan Pat. Yeah, those are all such interesting ideas. Nekka including, but this is another thing that's interesting. If you go back to Draftmine, the Valkyries were getting all kinds of, you know, flak, if you were about the full flage, like taking flage and then trading flage and then how that all kind of seemed like. And then not talking about it that night, but then eventually talking about it. So they got a lot of flak. But if you look at how they've constructed their team since day one, it's been pretty smart and more measured. Yeah, you bring up the sparks. You talk about, I don't know what the sparks are doing. It is, you know, what do you read into them firing their general manager so soon to the trade deadline. And now who is, who is for sure pulling the strings in L.A.? And if you are then Roberts, how much security do you feel like you have in your job? So, yeah. So those are all, you know, right now that it just feels like there's a lot more, that's such a cliche. But there's just a lot of questions, more questions and answers for the sparks. It's interesting. So I think I think with Flage A, the Valkyries, I think, you know, they made a mistake. They, the seventh picked turned into eventually nothing for them. That's not good asset management, right, or the eighth pick rather. At the same time, and this kind of applies how they play too. Like they can, they're a team that can afford to make mistakes because they've built so smartly. And they have had such a strong foundation that they have given themselves a margin for error. So in a similar way on the court, they can afford to see if Kia Stokes can develop a three-point shop because their defense is so solid and they're going to out-out shoot you from three and they're going to get to the room all the time. Like it's, they've, they've given themselves a luxury of flexibility and patience. And I feel like the sparks are kind of on the opposite end of that right now, where there's, it feels like there's no time. They fired Reagan 20 games for the trade deadline. Prior to that, it's like, okay, you hire Lynn Roberts, three point, like threes and layups type of coach, then you get Neco-Gumache and free agency who's decided like, yes, she's spreading her game out to the three. And she's a great three-point shooter. She won a title on as a Hall of Fame career player because what she can do from like 16 p.m. Like that's, that is, that is the strength of what she's capable of doing. And so there's like a lack of I think discipline as far as like what their vision is. It felt more like, well, this is a star that we can get because she wants to come back to LA. And even now, it seems like it's very important to her. They just lost a game against the links. And she tied Lisa Leslie on the all-time sparks scoring list. And I don't have the quote in front of me right now. And unfortunately, my computer is frozen. And this is the only thing I have access to right now. So we're just going to ride. But she basically says something along the lines of, you know, it would have been nice to do this under better circumstances. However, I feel like we're building. Like she had a very optimistic answer. So I wonder if she even would want to go somewhere else. Maybe she, this is where she like truly wants to build something. But I do wonder like, what do you. Yeah. Like what is your, what is your take on this first right now? Like what are your thoughts? What are you hearing? Like what's what is going on? There's some, I don't know if ironies the right word because we, I know we constantly use that word wrong. But the idea of, you know, Penny told her was the GM for a long time. And people, I mean, you can say there's issues Penny had over the years. But they were consistently in the playoffs. And they won their championships when Penny was the GM. And it has been maybe revolving doors a little much. But there's been a lot of uncertainty in that GM role since Penny was fired in 2019. And they've only been to the playoffs once. Since then. So what again, I just think you, you've nailed it again, which is this idea for the sparks. they know really what they want to do for the last six years or it is almost like everything they're doing and they've done a lot of things I hate I don't want to say that they just haven't worked out I mean you know signing Liz Campbell Asian Kennedy Carter in the same season that didn't go anywhere you know they really seem like okay we're really committed to Derek Fisher being our GM and our coach in 2022 that kind of blows up and then Kurt Miller you know he's somebody who's been a success for a long time and he gets with two years right they they seem like they're they're almost in panic mode all the time they've given the panic mode for six years now and that's really hard especially if you're a franchise that had you know fair amount of success and now original franchise and you feel like hey we should be we should have pulled out of this no stif a while ago and and we're still in it and and sometimes they are they can be it you know you're watching them and you're just saying do they know what they're doing you know like they they just don't always seem like the same page so um yeah if I were a sparks fan I would just feel and and boy especially you mentioned Kelsey Plum she's she looks so good this year yeah so good and so strong and so focused and determined and and she's been a great player whole career but really this year for her to be heard on top of it obviously can't bring came back but you know she's dealt with all the injuries so I would be I would just be a little bit like I'd my head would be swimming if I were sparks fan because I would feel like I want to be hopeful I want to be NECA but I'm not sure there's a lot of foundation to feel hopeful right now it's hard it's hard to find hope either way right like you could potentially try to sell everybody off and you know get that get into that top three maybe top four and a great draft yeah so I just it just doesn't especially with all the young talent that they did have and could have had if you're gonna go that route it could have looked a lot different and they're unfortunately a no man's land and they now have four games left to sort out really and truly what they have and you know we had an update that Kelsey Plum will hopefully be back very soon don't exactly know what that means and she's out with an overuse injury so you hope that they're not you know trying to kind of do repeat history there um it's unfortunate like because this is this is a franchise that I think could mean so much and has meant so much to the WNBA um yeah it's hard it's you know go it's an interesting kind of of LA women's hoops because you know you're you know you're coming off of the first you know championship you know since the early 80s with the Cheryl Miller's you know Cheryl Miller and and McGee twins winning of you know one of those two schools winning a championship with UCLA winning a championship and one of the most exciting players and all the women's basketball at USC and did that rivalry really matters now I mean even though you know the tragedy of the pack that packed 12 being um it's just it's you know and um it's still like it's so exciting you know for me at watch sport for such a long time and just to see how much energy there seems to be about women's hoops in Los in Los Angeles so you kind of want to see that carry over on it absolutely I mean this is a basketball craze city people just love hoops here and they love stars they love yeah it's it's the two things in in LA like every nobody's a celebrity except for the basketball players because everybody's a celebrity like there is just so much potential here and it's just a huge market it has the history yeah so you you hope that eventually they figure something out I had to give a shout out to Cheryl Reeve too because so Olivia Miles goes down latent the game against the sparks today and it looks so she had and it was an ankle sprain but she also like she also I think she had like the horror farming moment of the week where she comes off to the bench and like limps over to her teammates and like is high-fiving them afterwards so hopefully it's not something too serious like we've seen a lot of these not a doctor but it's it's giving two or three games or something like that maybe hopefully she can play in the all-star game right yeah but we'll see an update on Olivia Miles pretty pretty soon I'm sure um but so Olivia Miles goes goes out in this game and the Cheryl Reeve just see immediate pivot to Caleb McBride is just going to dust aerial atkins multiple times and she's going to become our offense and we're going to set up Natasha Howard in the post like I just think like this is why she's the coach of the year you know it's just it's just amazing and for the sparks end of it like you know they got cam back which is great um you know a little rusty which which you expect but I think it kind of sets up their next big question like Lynn Roberts alas that a while I think she's been a little bit more willing to be like willing to make adjustments to her system um they're attacking mismatches more they're playing a nice solution more um it's less of that five out like perimeter stuff right and neck has been playing amazing and no so also like in fairness to Lynn um a lot of that has been from beyond the arc as well but defining a little bit more balance right now and I remember early in the season somebody asked her well would you play Derek a happy necka and cam at once and um she said well that doesn't really work with how we like to play and to me it's like well I think that you need to change how you play a little bit and and and now I do wonder if we do eventually see that and if they can find something um out out of that because I feel like especially if you're if you're not like winning games like I I feel like that level of systemic field is it's probably a little too rigid I so I hope I hope we do because we've gotten zero minutes of that combo this season so I do hope we eventually get that yeah and and you know the coach like like Lynn and we've seen this risk cross-mesco and and Jose Fernandez I mean I do think they they they know basketball so it's like how all of them are adjusting to the WNBA game and how just what you said like in the WNBA it's okay you know if that's not how you play then change how you play if that's what you know the the personnel is and Reeves is obviously not just the longest you know she's the winningest coach in WNBA history she's the longest and she's one of the longest tenured coaches in all of professional sports in the United States right now um and and she's um and it's funny because then you used to thinking about you know if you went to you know the NHL the NBA the NFL major league baseball like how many how many coaches some teams have in the time that Cheryl Reeves has been links coach it's I haven't literally sat down but it's it's just immense and she has you know every all the sort of different um ways if you will look that the styles of play over the that time that she's been in the WNBA as it's evolved she's evolved with I just think she's got why it's not that I think this is very clear she's got a great basketball mind and and a great ability to um I feel like I'm throwing out so many clichés today but but it's that idea of putting people where they are they are at the best he's been so good at that for a whole career um at the I was at you know the Hall of Fame in Knoxville where she was inducted and one of the things that Tajmik Williams Franklin said was I thought of myself as mostly you know a grinder and a defensive player and a rebounder and it was Cheryl when you know she was working with her when she was with the shock when she was insisting she was like Cheryl so first person that really made me believe in myself as a good offensive player which was you know I think is such a attribute to a coach when somebody who I think is as terrific a player as Taj was to say this is a coach who really believes in an aspect of my game that I really have believed in yeah absolutely absolutely I think I mean it speaks to even like tier of account when she came onto the team like she was like I didn't necessarily work out but um you know Cheryl's like I want you to kind of just be free and how you think about yourself like just be yourself out on the court um and the irony is that it somehow maybe I'm not using that right but the irony is that somehow it turns into these teams that have incredible role definition as well like the Tash of Howard is like I'm shooting layups like Olivia Miles and Courtney Williams are running more picking role than anybody else on lead came back is like they're designated gonery like they just even within that freedom like they within that freedom they kind of organically find themselves in like the ideal roles for themselves and maybe because it's organic like they stay with those roles and and thrive within them all right last thing I wanted to hit before I let you out of here is on the There's a story today in the sports business journal by Tom Friend, and I'd say the headline of this reporting is that Adam Silver reportedly was the one who convinced Kathy Engelberg to dull out a suspension for Alyssa Thomas after her altercation with Caitlin Clark. The WNBA has since said that that allocation is absolutely false. I will say whether it's true or not, it just doesn't look good. Either it's true and you're not running your own league, which we've kind of know when have suspected for a long time, or it's not true when there are people in high places that would really like to see you look bad and kind of shove you. Oh, I think the thing that stood out to me on that regard was the reporting that there are people amongst the league who, wow, there's an understanding that she has to balance the Clark stuff and how much attention she gets, that they feel like she has overdone and she is not featured Clark enough, the thing that I'd say I agree with, what are your thoughts? So there are two things in the WNBA that if you talk about, you're going to make everybody mad no matter what you say, I'm sort of being fissitious, but I'm actually not, because it's Caitlin Clark and Kathy Engelberg, because there's so many strong opinions on both of these topics, and I, again, really try to understand where people are coming from, you know, on all different aspects of things. And so, okay, I will say this, Kathy has probably her biggest mistakes have been a lack of alliance building and relationships with people in the league, but she's done, she really has done a lot of positive things that I think whenever you say that, people say no, she hasn't, I really do think from a financial standpoint, because that was her strength coming in. I think there's no question the leaks in a much stronger financial place. And if you go back to that first press conference she had and all started in 2019, really everything that she talked about, the buckets of things she wanted to do, she's really hit a lot of them. That does not mean that I'm taking anything away from the fact that the players are, and she would say that to the players of the ones, obviously, who make a league go, but she's made a lot of right decisions, unfortunately, I think she doesn't have a lot of allies, and that's both on the player side, I think, in terms of people who are willing to speak out to support her. And so, I think she would have to say that's a mistake that she's made to your point, again, I think you nailed it either way, this looks bad, because either, you know, Adam Silver came in and said, I'm going to make a decision for you, even though you're the commissioner of your league, or somebody, one would assume in the NBA, I'm assuming that's where this came from, was the NBA side, somebody really wants to humiliate her publicly. And she's been through a fair amount of public humiliation, frankly, with the booze and the fact that the players really don't tend to hesitate to criticize her publicly. And I'm curious if this happened, if it was Adam that made that decision ultimately, would the same players who were critical of her, because they thought she made the decision, how they'd be critical of him, if they thought that he made the decision. And I don't know, because she's been so much the target that I think that's just where a lot of people immediately go, like that it's all her fault, she's done everything wrong and, you know, it's, again, it is complicated because I think she's had a lot of, she has had good moments, even though a lot of people don't want to give from that. She's had good moments and good decisions, but it's tough when you feel like you're kind of out here, and nobody's really on your side, if you were, that can be a alienating place, no matter how powerful you are, or if she is, even. Well, that's spot that she's in, because the commissioner, you know, answers to the owners and this commissioner in particular answers to Adam Silver, if you don't have alliances, you don't have a lot of power. If you don't have, you know, the weight of public opinion behind you, you don't have a lot of power. And if it is Adam that made these decisions and Kathy doesn't have power to your point, it does beg the question of, should we be putting a lot more of this stuff on Adam? A lot of, and the, and the NBA at large, right? Like while I certainly have, you know, I've not been shy to, um, left me my critiques at Kathy Engelberg at the same time, um, a lot of the, the WNBA shortcomings come from a lack of investment. And a lack of the NBA, really realizing that they have this league that is propulsive and growing. And if they pay the referees accordingly, if, um, like I think that's the biggest thing, but just, you know, marketing investment, league office investment, um, if they thought about the WNBA in the way that they think about the NBA from a perspective of innovation and growth, where could the WNBA be right now? My biggest criticism of Kathy in that front has always been that I don't think that she's been the right person, she, like, to sell that vision to a group of people who are skeptical, um, because I don't think she necessarily has the best understanding of what it is that makes the WNBA special and what fans really want. And we're kind of at this place where whoever I think we should lead the WNBA in the future needs to have a bigger sense of what it means to be a business person. At this point, you have to include listening to your customers, listening to your players. Um, like customer feedback is, you know, I'm not, I don't have a business school degree, but I feel like that would be up there. Um, so it's an interesting time, I feel like it's pretty clear to most people that she's probably going to be out soon. I wonder if she's kind of operating in that way, because, um, one of the alliances that she doesn't have is media and it's interesting, like last week, she was supposed to go on Dan Patrick and they, and, and, you know, she left him hanging for two hours and, um, then she says that, well, WNBA PR doesn't want me to do this interview. Um, you know, you can have a lot of different takeaways from it. My biggest one is that like, I think there are very few people in sports that you could do that to as a person in media in terms of like airing out them, cancelling and it have no repercussions. And I believe that Kathy Angover is one of those people, because I think most people think that she's a lame duck. They also think that when she does go on your show, she's not going to say a lot anyways. If you do put her in front of a camera or a microphone, she's going to go out of her way to not really address whatever it is that needs to be addressed. And she's not the type of person who can make you pay for it, or as a lot of people in sports are that type of person, like you're not going to do, like this, like, you know, like this, this type of stuff happens. Granted, like the way it happened as far as her golfing, right beside you in the view role that was incredible, it was probably one of the more disrespectful ways it happens, but you know that this happens, like this happens to people like us all of the time. Like we are at the behest of people that we want to talk to, and sometimes they do cancel last minute or forget about us, because we're lower on the total poll on their priority list. Like it is just is what it is, but the fact that he was willing to go public with it just tells me so much about where Kathy Angover is in like the, in the power ranking. You know, when I talk about Kathy, what I do try to do, and again, this is some possible to do on social media, so I've given up, but you do have to put her into perspective with the other WNBA leaders, and all of them had strengths and came along at different times of the league where they face different challenges. And you know, the one of them that, you know, I probably spent the most time talking to you over the years, was foul as the first president, but Kathy's been the first one with a title commissioner, but in a lot of ways, there's still that idea that unlike the commissioners of the NBA or Major League Baseball or hockey or football, she's still got another boss, right? The book doesn't necessarily stop at her, at least not with everything, though whole situation with the Connecticut Sunsale, you know, there's a strong feeling that, you know, what she was the path that she was on, then got superseded by Adam Silver, and the path. that he was on in terms of the sun ending up in Houston. - So do you think that Engelbert would have wanted them in Boston, or had kept them in-- - I think there's going to be a more momentum for that possibility. And whether that would have turned out or not, the way that it all shook out made it seem like it was another thing that the NBA decided. And understandably, the NBA is the parent organization. And has been, you know, the financial driver of the WNBA. That's, nobody's going to argue with that. But when I saw this today, it really sort of, it reminded me of how many times and covering the league since the beginning, I've thought, this decision, you know, this is another decision that the NBA ended up making. And just the NBA, and I think David Stern did, you know, an amazing job in starting the WNBA. But did David Stern or Adam Silver or anyone else who might be part of those decisions, do they always understand the specific aspects of the WNBA that are different from the NBA? And you have brought up several of them today. That's been my question, is do they always understand that? And then does the commissioner, now commissioner, used to be president of the WNBA? Do they sometimes get thrown under the bus? Because it wasn't ultimately them, you know, the buck didn't stock with them. And sometimes it's hard if you've got all the responsibility, but not all of the authority, if you will. Absolutely, yeah. That's a great, very eloquent way of putting it. And, but I think you're right in that not having the allies, because you walk a little bit of a tightrope as a commissioner, right? You're working, you are management, and you're working for the owners, but you want to have a good relationship with players. And this has been a tightrope that's been really hard for Kathy to walk. I had a conversation with her several years ago. I think it was during the pandemic season, which by the way, I do think she just turns a lot of credit. There was so many things that had to go right for that season to happen. And that was very early in the 10 year. I think she gets a lot of credit for that season to take a place. But I remember talking to her about her dilute background, specifically. And the honestly, very esoteric, financial aspects that she was an expert in. And I've always come back to thinking, she is at heart an accountant. She is somebody who is probably incredibly comfortable with spreadsheets in a way that I would never be. Like the way that I think she understands numbers. But it's hard to, it's hard sometimes than if you don't have maybe the complete other aspect of relating personally with everybody that she might have needed to. I've had a very good relationship with her. I like her. I've liked the conversations I've had with her. But I find that when they tell people that they still, as you said, the consumers maybe still don't like her. The players don't like her. So you have to listen to the, if you will, the public. And I think that's just part of the situation. There are times when I do feel bad for feeling like me. And I feel bad for anybody almost that is like out. You know, they're wording a trophy and everybody's booing them. I don't, I'm just, I don't know. That does make, I feel, I feel like that's a really uncomfortable position for somebody being, who I do think wanted the best for the WMBA. All some, has won the best for it. Yeah. Yeah, the punishment doesn't always fit the cry. That's a good way, but that's the good way. But it didn't, but you also said, and you're right, that the next person, because there's going to be a next person, whether exactly when that is, it's, I would imagine it could be after this season. But I don't know, we don't know, but you think it could be. That next person in some ways does have a little bit of a blueprint for what went wrong and what went right in, in Kathy's tenure. And that's something to work on, because the WMBA is in a different place than it was when she took it. Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. And all the things that you're talking about as far as the NBA versus the WMBA, what's good for the NBA is always what's good for the WMBA. The roughing problem comes down to that. There's a money aspect of it, but there's also the fact that WMBA reps go through a training pipeline in the NBA G league, where they're a refereeing man. That's, how is that going to be conducive or productive towards training referees to referee women? And then on expansion, there are so many WMBA markets that aren't NBA markets. It can't just be all 30, it can't be every WMBA team is in an NBA market, because then you're missing out on markets like South Carolina, like Tennessee, which made a bit, and it's absolutely crazy over women's basketball. The Tennessee Summit would have been a fantastic team. That's your missing out on that. Frankly, I think it would probably make a lot of sense to kick the tires on putting a team in Iowa, obviously, because of Caitlin Clark, but they were selling out the sweets. They were up there, and they have a great history of women's basketball. There are plenty of markets. If they don't want to be into teams before I retire, I'll be happy to take one, because I've been waiting for three years, and that would be fine, because that would be a nice easy trip for me. I don't know if that's going to happen, but-- That's got to be next. That's got the next commission. You're right. And I've been sort of-- I've been sure I've honestly been a little bit conflicted, because I am going to be happy to have the comments back, just because they were so important to the beginning. But it's so sad that that's the expense of a team that's built up a fan base, and that's stepped in when nobody wanted a team. They stepped in. And so it does feel bad that it's coming from Connecticut, even though I'm happy to have the comments. I'll be happy to have the comments back. Especially when you think about the Yukon dynasty, and the way that Gen Z is just like propelled themselves towards page and AZ. And there's just like a ton of new age husky spans. I think it would have been a good opportunity to try to bridge that divide between the college basketball program there and the WNBA program. I think that with some more investment in the sun, that could have been possible. Michael, thank you so much for hopping on. I just so appreciate your perspective every single time. Thank you. I'm really glad we had an opportunity to just-- Yeah. I think we started off on the fever in the calories, and we talked about everything, I think. So it's always good. It's nice also, and it's really important for me to say this, that younger reporters, I think, are in media function and in fans on the positive side are bringing in a lot of good, fresh ideas and perspective and do their homework. It is so clear how much homework you do and how closely you watch the league and are able to talk about the league, both, from a basketball perspective, which you know very well, but then also some of the bigger issues. And when I'm at my most, sometimes, I'll feel like, oh gosh, I wish everybody wasn't fighting all the time, like in the WN, and I'll be sad about that. But then I'll remind myself, this is part of the growth of any league. We have watched, in these 30 years, a league go from, you know, very few people realistically paying attention to now breaking through and having so much more attention. And there's going to be growing pains. There's going to be fans who clash, right? Like, how are we here in '97? And you don't know what you're talking about. And then, you know, like, that's going to happen, but ultimately, there's some great people, and you're one of them, that are going to be shepherding this game into its next, you know, its next phase, both of coverage and of influence in the American entertainment world, if you will, but you know, that's just a sports world. It's an entertainment business. And the WNB is on its way there. - Absolutely. Well, honestly, first of all, it's very kind of you to say. And I think that is such a great perspective to have on it. Like, we are just embroiled in the middle of this conflict that will eventually lead to resolution. But until then, like, we're just in the thick of it. So it seems like this is the only place that we're ever going to be. But you're probably, you're right. Like, it probably won't be. Like, I think, I think we'll eventually get to a place where all makes sense. - Give me a little bit of how for years, and I mean years and years and years, we would go to the president and then the commissioners press conferences at all star at the finals. And the question would come up about expansion. Oh, well, we're hopeful, and you just felt like, God, this is never gonna, we're ever gonna get back to, we're at 16, or we ever gonna get back to 16 and felt like, oh, we're just spinning our wheels in terms of WNBA growth. And just what you said, sometimes when you're in something, it feels like, you ever gonna get out of it. And now we're, you know, we are, its league is going to be up to 18 by 2030 and that's really exciting because for such a long time it was kind of needing to tread water and and so it's always good to like look at the real progress and not and and not sort of get too bogged down and sometimes the daily frustrations that it where it seems like people are kind of that you think should be on the same side of kind of fighting each other. Yeah absolutely absolutely. I agree with you. Thank you so much. Thanks for for that. I appreciate you and I hope to see you down the road. Yeah. I hope I run into you again so I can bully you again. You didn't go at all. You churned me on. So that's a good dinner of life and my dog. Thank you. I appreciate you. There you go. Well that's that's that's an L like I kind of wish that we got a dog appearance. I'm not going to be you. Probably she's very bossy so this was actually I think she she was she was allowing us to chat so that was pretty pretty great. Well that's her you know that's that's her right and she's that's very graceful of her. I appreciate. I hope she gets a lot of treats and a lot of pets as a result of of her good behavior. Michael thank you so much. Thank you to your dog. What's your dog name? Luna thank you so much Luna. Thank you to Stefan Anderson for producing as always and we'll be back next week. Hope everybody has a great weekend.