The State of Cambodia's Online Scamming Industry

(upbeat music) - Hello and welcome to the program. My name is Wood Hunt, and this is another podcast of the diplomat. With me today is Nathan Southern. Nathan is a journalist. He's a former president of the overseas press club in Cambodia, and he's the director of operations for the Iowa Witness Project. Nathan welcomed the program thanks over me on. And while Cambodia's had a hell of a ride over the last few years, and like many journalists have been in need to uncover the issues that are going on to stand compound, to shoot a traffic king, organized crime. It's a never-ending story at the moment. Can you get us an update on where things are at the moment? In particular, the people who are on the streets, there's the victims, there's those who are complicit. And it's a tricky time to have those. - Yeah, so like you said, there's so many journalists that have just ended up making this their beef the last few years, right? And we're looking at a completely different things. So as we've been covering this for a few years, and not just in Cambodia, but around the world, we can end it up speaking to so many victims that we then became involved in trying to organize some of the rescues from those scam compounds. - Right. - And that's where we initially started to see that there was a problem with what happens when these people actually leave. And basically we have tens of thousands, if not hundreds of thousands of human trafficking victims or forced labor inside these compounds. One rescue that we worked on was in December last year. And that's when the crackdown was already living, right? The chances of sanctions to come in. And when we were working on that, it was in parquet. The snow sanctioned by the UK and it closed down linked to Prince of Taiwan. And when we were able to get 25 Ugandans and Kenyans out of that compounds, and we thought it would then be relatively straightforward to get them home. But when they got out, they got into a shelter, and then they were left for months and months. And there wasn't really any support. So we were trying to find ways to raise money, get these people home, but then we started to see that it was happening more and more. So sometimes these huge raids that the authorities are publicizing just now, they will come in, they will arrest hundreds of people and they'll often be deported, especially to China. But often they just come into these compounds and hundreds, if not thousands of victims or people working in there, can just be told, right, leave, the doors are open, the bosses are already gone. I'll tell you a story about passports being just thrown on the ground. People trying to scramble and then find theirs. So then you've got this situation where millions and thousands of people who have ended up stranded in Cambodia as human trafficking victims, who are working in these scam compounds who just can't get home. So there's women who have been for horrific assaults and there's been tortured and they have the physical scars, really, really sick people and being for these dramatic situations. And now there's living on the street. So some were coming over, more compounds, living like in the jungle, we're trying to navigate their way across land mines in some areas. Some of these people were bombed during the war in their compounds. And now we've got a income campaign you can see it, especially with South Asian and East African victims of trafficking and forced labor, where they are just sleeping outside the offices of international NGOs outside their embassy if they have one. And just begging for help and the support isn't really coming. And I think they're in this awkward, like, language situation where no one wants to talk about this, like, you know, displacement crisis or refugee crisis would never been anywhere before where there are thousands of human trafficking victims who actually want to go home. So no, there needs to be an international response and that's not happened. - Yeah, the, the Indonesians, I think, have done a good job, they've put on charter flights. And if you happen to be from a country with an embassy in Cambodia, that can make life a lot easier. - Yeah. - So general perceptions where it's like, okay, you might be a victim, but, and then, you know, you were scamming people for soup or not. And then there are all these kind of Cambodian vagaries, like, understand there's a waiver in some respects, but they charge 10 bucks a day for overstaying your visa. If you're in Thailand, they slap a $1,000 fine on you and get you out of the country. Go, we don't want you. But in Cambodia, you risk to come a bargaining chip. And then I've been told, but I'll make them, the victims who, you know, particularly in the early days, two or three years ago, where they were, oh, okay, by the way, you can go, but you've got to pay this fine. I can't pay this fine. Oh, you might be able to go, but you're gonna say you're here in traffic. And now you have to admit that you were working here illegally. - So the visa waiver situation is, is kind of the crux of it, because it's the ambiguity that's causing so many problems. When this crack down really began, and back at the beginning of the year, that waiver wasn't in at all. So you had, I get, you can discuss who's there willing, who's not, but if we just take the Cuban trafficking victims, which are plenty of evidence for many of them, then they could be looking at a $2,000, $3,000 fine, based on the fact that, like, yes, it's $10 a day for overstayed, but giving traffic tends to the country, you probably didn't renew your tourist visa after 30 days, right? And you could have been here for two years. So you think if we go off, I was hidden, but once you have been tortured for two years, and you come out, you're not gonna be hit with $1,000, especially if the Cambodian government do want you to leave, because that stops them. No, what's happened is this really unofficial, but well-known policy, where if you can show that you were a victim of trafficking, and there isn't any of you, then they will lift that waiver. But that's been threatened, the Department of Immigration has been threatening to remove that waiver unofficially for months, and it usually goes back in February, like this is gonna end on the 30th of February, as it was not a date. I mean, it was like renewed, and it was gonna be the 29th of March, and it kept going every month. But it's not given as official documentation. So it was rough. It happens when we're working to try to get these people home, we often have to leave the embassies. The embassies usually aren't here. It's very if you're African nationals, there's no African. So they will get a message usually from, maybe a ministry for an affairs, maybe immigration, to get an email that they can't share publicly, basically saying, look, the waiver will end at the end of this month, and then there's no details on what happens. It doesn't mean, it doesn't say that you don't have to pay the fee or they'll be arrested, but it means that everyone is stranded here, and there are a lot of them, and I'm like five, 10 new calls a day from people, and they will say, we need to get out by next week, or this waiver is gonna end, and we don't have a response to that. And on top of that, the people are already desperately trying to leave. So I think maybe there's a reason that the government's doing this, where they're trying to give that nudge, give that push for people to leave, but it's not like the people want to stay, we're trafficked in the country, stuck here in torture, they can't want to go home, but we just need some kind of confirmation, right? And because all of that makes it harder to get funding for NGOs, to get government response, because we don't have an actual mandate on stranded people who need to get all. Can you ask the gift, how many people do you think are stranded? Looking at 10, 20, 30, 50,000 people? - Honestly, I can't say why it would be, how I'd year the numbers when it was, the first crackdowns began to key them in, but now I would say at least in the thousands, is that tens of thousands, I don't know. And like you said, some emissies are better, the ASEAN states, you still see people sleeping outside in the Nesian embassy just now, but then the countries don't have this data. The government here doesn't have this data, but we're in the thousands. - Right, I was just thinking tens of thousands, times two to three thousand dollars ahead, that's quite a tidy sum of money, which at the end of the day, that's what this has always been about, getting the numbers. - Yeah, I feel like that. I think the starkest example that was, there were 19 people we were trying to help, who were sleeping, I would say, the one human trafficking shelter in Grand Pan, just waiting to get access, because they're overloaded. And then they were arrested. That was last month. They were taken to a local jail and we were coming in with food and medicine, things like that. And then they were transferred to an immigration detention center, which used to be a place called Mangalto, which was one of the most notorious scam compounds, at Prince Linkt, and that's now, turns out it works pretty well as a prison. And they're now in there, and they, we were stopped from bringing in supplies, and they're being given one tiny meal a day, as often the meat is off, the soup is, there's nothing, no medicine, but there is a shop inside, so people can pay the guards for water, for food, and that is creating quite an income there. But that's not gonna be a centralized policy as well, right? But you can see the insensitive from different departments, especially those who are maybe making money, Previously from some of the scam compounds no trying to fill that gap somehow right A resolution is what I think a lot of people would like to see to this. It wasn't quite the words used In the ceasefire agreement would reach with the ties in the on the December 27 But it was part of the peace still net the less I think the actual wording was a suppression of Organized crime in cambo It was responsible for the human trafficking and scam networks Are the cambo audience living up to the side of the deal? They're living up to their side of the deal in the sense that they have definitely dismantled an enormous amount of The scam compounds that were operating not all of them but a lot of them But in terms of like dismantling an overall organized crime system No, there's not been really any effort to go after You know many of the people Link yeah the big names had been there being sanctioned and there are a risk warrants out for the mean I like so we all know who they are. Yeah, yeah, but there's nothing happening to them right and they're essentially doesn't happen Unless the guy who owns the land the senator who controls the the local securities houses They would have facilitated this so definitely scams had decreased But then there are still a lot of compounds that have remained untouched and there are some connections to people that you can understand why they may be untouched and then there's the other thing where like I said some All these compounds are rated others have just been told it's time to stop or at least stop for now and we spoken to people And you know, they may be just like a border compound space and Vietnam and Thailand border and they have The guards have said we've witnessed a few hundred thousand dollars. I didn't see myself You know going to the cops they were coming every day the week before they shut then they shut and then The same guards keep guarding that compound Um, so so there's no like you know, they're not seizing that compound. They're not investigating. There's no evidence buildup And then some of we went to by there on the vnaborna where The authorities did bring those in to see a few really compounds and we were asking questions about well Okay, well who owned this and that that wasn't been revealed. They said we don't we don't know so yeah The compounds have definitely decreased but that criminality is it's still being seen as a safe haven for transnational Criminal groups and those people involved with the state who have benefited from this as well Yeah, and there's essentially this bizarre attitude by some certainly not all that They should be legitimized that we can improve working conditions Well only accept people who apply for a job. I know the Tywin and his anthropologist who is making a study of people who are running and working These these compounds because it's becoming a way of life a tribal way of life And we it's it's kind of Seriously diverse and you've got the situations where I'm sure you've heard them as well that okay The people are crying for their mothers and they want to go home. Let's get rid of them. They're not very good anyway And I particularly in Myanmar where the compounds have been pushed further inland and From away from the Thai border that is and obviously the place has been budgeted by civil war and you've got A hundred thousand people killed and no jobs and people were actually going in there willingly But there was also a lot of talk about how in Cambodia that yes They're getting rid of the people who didn't want to be there and they're professionalized Moving it to more remote parts of the country where you can isolate a Sells in penon pen and the provincial cities. Are you seeing that as well? Yeah, yeah definitely I think as the these huge like the the egregious compounds right the ones that's really easy to be an international film crew and come and you can film them and you can see here That's that's a massive scam compound right as they're kind of going away where obviously I Significant increase and the condominiums and propane that are just right really Involved in scams. I mean you can you can see the outside signs of it right if you go in and you can confirm it But some of them are also ones that have been hit before so Like one of the Prince owned compounds. It's right beside the men's she've been to you I've been looking out for years and that was actually rated a few months ago And now it's it's easier than I've ever seen it and then along the riverside area And this is free. Yeah, this is Prince group who were sanctioned by the Americans and the Brits They've gone into liquidation. They've been declared bankrupt along with panda one one H pay And Chengee the founder has been sent back to all deported to Beijing where he's facing criminal prosecution But what you're saying is that some of these operations that kick started again They have and they got really quiet when Chenzu was deported to China You see that right decrease naturally and then some reads but then you've also seen Some of the Prince assets being seized some of those big compounds Some of those like city size areas they've built They've been seized and taken over by the men's she've been tedious Who is currently paying $250,000 that is named removed from potential sanctions due to his relationship with Chenzu and drive like as you know And now they have those assets and they've all they're going to look like they're going to turn park eight Into a prison And they've already turned mango too as we said into an immigration detention center And I'd just come back to your other point. I would definitely say that yeah as it does shift Into these Like into the condominiums into the middle of the city and not these they greet just compounds Then yet the the move that makes sense is having less traffic in bits Right so now still an enormous amount of law enforcement actually to try and tackle this But it does seem like the people coming to scam and Cambodia are more likely to be there willingly now and maybe on More kind of specialized aspects of those scams right so when you have the human trafficking victims You want them for the the the really intense labor right the initial text messages But then there are more specialized scams that you know pretend to be law enforcement or you're using AI Or you can be doing the backend systems for this global infrastructure Cambodia still offers that but they do seem to move in a way from the human trafficking model I was thinking to one of my sources Uh Very well placed in government there And I did ask him quite bloodly you know other ruling elites Still involved with human trafficking and he's like no, I believe he's no And who in the prime minister is seriously trying to crack down But his hands are tied by the circle of people who have been ratioated themselves with the government over the years And one of the bigger issues the people who may not be running the operations but are encouraging the operations The other ones who are renting out and leasing out the apartments The empty blocks to flat the special economic zones that people will supply food Computers mobile phones in the net connections always sorts of things and the logistics Yeah, this is still an issue and Having trouble getting through to those people. Yeah. Yeah, I think I was a lot of trif to that Like I do think that one I say I'm moving away from criminality But moving away from human trafficking I do think I'm really pushing to try to do that And I think they're also struggling with the skill that it's gotten to Yeah, these kind of all the tree deadlines right and then You should What have we done This is actually pretty big right And yeah, you are you are seeing like the legacy of those big groups like like friends And a few of the others And some of the people who are still here creates to the government and what they have done is they developed up these Dorey economies around scam compounds right like the delivery services that go in and out of the places Payment apps digital banking platforms those all still exist and they still serve a purpose And they were you know born to move and wander money for the scam empire But now they still exist in the legitimate side of the Cambodian economy And then on top of that you a lot of these grips are now They're already involved a little bit but they're moving more into other criminal exploits So like cigarette trafficking is is huge right some drug trafficking as well But human trafficking seems to be the one let's let's stay away from that And let's try to get some international support based on our crap better right the And of course with the deportations was starting to see them These compounds emerge in Sri Lanka in Nepal Nigeria other countries in Africa and it's It's not going away. This is going to be an immense global problem And I think you know with It's quite fashionable to say news terms like the global south These countries are going to find their banking sectors Cut off from the rest of the world like Cambodia has had happened over the past 12 months or so What Well what type of scams well how how is the industry of Poland because these people are going to take what they know AI as we all know There's seriously going to change the way we live and I keep hearing stories about How AI is also going to transform the yes Hip trafficking scam compounds money laundering Organize climate networks as well. So we were already seeing EA been used quite a while. It's not quite got to that stage where it's more affected than having 3,000 people in one compound sending out 400 text messages. Right, but we're seeing the scams develop so much in partnership with AI. Yeah. Now, a lot of it is as simple as AI imagery and you'll often see ad verse on Instagram and on Facebook of, okay, this is fun. You can change your face. You can be this new person on AI. Who's that for? Why is that being advertised? And any sense that shouldn't be okay. But, um, when I often use, um, sophisticated scams, now, when away from the age, oh, and I've met you at the bar the other day, and that's kind of what everyone knows. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You know, I think that that gives us sense that, oh, we know what it is. Who's really fallen for this as well. They still exist. But what happens more is that you've got the logo of the Indian tax services behind you or you have like your D.F. via your international law enforcement. Right. And federal police. Exactly. Exactly. The Brazilian. So, they had a full markup of Brazilian police. I'm like, Cambodia. I've been seeing lots and lots of these. I'm also getting, I'm personally getting hit by scams. I mean, I'm pretty good at picking a map. But I was surprised to get one the other day through LinkedIn, which yeah, yeah, pushing hard on the market, keeping them out. The, there are ways, uh, I mean, we could, we could, we could probably go a whole podcast on what to look for and what not to look for. But I don't want to give them any tips. You know what I mean? Yeah. Yeah. Many years ago, we did a lot of stories. This was like 25 years ago. We were horrified. No, we were running stories about pedophiles crossing from Hong Kong in the China and backing it. And then we found out later on that our stories that were being used by pedophiles who ran websites about what to look for, how to evade detection. These guys, which makes you totally wonder about what you shouldn't say, even with a podcast like mine, which doesn't exactly have a huge audience. But you never know who's who's watching. Well, we've found the same and we just always see back in the days where it wasn't really believed the skill of us. So you're trying to push everyone. Yeah, I remember those. Well, and you were saying, well, you can just go by these compounds in middle of the jungle and there's like so many, like so many, so many laundry and clothes hanging out in the balcony. And that's the same. And then I've seen what was happening now. You're on the telegram chats where the scan groups operate. They'll say, oh, I read this coming right now. We've been paying. And there's the you type building of his advertising. And they'll say, make sure that there's no motorbikes outside to park them somewhere else. Make sure you bring your laundry in. And I was like, I like, how much do you give them? But I think they're probably beyond whatever we can suggest. Right. And then so they that that also the the the the software that they're developing is just incredible. I mean, I've spoken to quite a few people who have been involved in compounds and explained using this these two specific gaps. One is where you can put in US for numbers and within seconds, it will give you all the details of that person's student love that mortgage. And I definitely addresses social media profiles and it can gather all that. So you can do a really tailored app. And then the other one. And which uses the eye a little bit more is is especially for the US. It is got such detailed information on coffee shops on bars on restaurants. So if you're trying to imply that you are in the same street as someone that you met on timber, but you've got conferences on you've not been able to be there, you can have the receipt for that coffee shop. It can AI your image or whoever's image into that coffee shop, you've got the price of the coffees, the menu, it's got all of that data. So using AI, you're actually an enormous amount of data that's coming in. And that's where a lot of the cash is now being generated is that is that data that's being gathered by these groups. So places like Cambodia might be the way from the big human trafficking model, but it's still the same networks that set up here. And now they're expanding in Madagascar in Sri Lanka, Uganda and all over the city of Louisville South. But we're seeing it in developed countries a little bit as well. And it's again the model of human trafficking to non-force labour. We've definitely seen a lot of these types of scams come up in places where it's developed state and you don't need to force people into because there's just so much money in this. When it comes to the international authorities, are they doing enough interpop? There's been criticized by many, including the European parliament, where it's argued they're not fit for purpose. It's a little bit difficult for the Cambodians to chat with the ties, given the order remains close. And this constant speculation that the conflict there will erupt again. But nevertheless the Americans, the strengths, the Australians, Japanese, South Koreans, they do seem to have a working relationship in terms of cracking down on these scams, scams, compounds and organised crime. What do you think needs to be done next? I think there's a willingness from international law enforcement to do more here. But those agencies can only operate in Cambodia, officially, with the permission of the host government. So they can only come in and help collaborate with the government on investigations. Now that is happening with the Chinese. The Chinese are doing a lot. Some of them are bored, some very much not reported. Yeah, they are. You know, and actually about in people. And Ben, the Japanese and South Koreans have some arrangements. We're told by police and Bavé and those ready compounds are there really keen to have more international cooperation on training capacity building, right? But there is how much do they want to bring in serenities and to the fold? Because I think what's happened is they've already kind of done the job. Once Prince Scott's action and they managed to have China, South Korea, Japan, the UK, EU, Australia and the US all extremely, extremely annotated with Cambodia just stealing billions of dollars from the economy. That's when they head back and they've done enough, I think, to show that they're taking the seriously. They're not allowing this to be a scam hub. And then they know what's that? Men is going back to the conflict. It has meant that Cambodia has improved relationships with all of those governments I just mentioned. So they could in less than for help with law enforcement cooperation if they want. And there are examples of where that happens and it's happening more but more importantly, they've improved their reputation again. So now they went from being this scam per ISD to know somehow either have already done this year or are arranging to do joint military exercises with China, Russia, India, I'm the U.S.E. and I can't think of any other states. No one else that have managed to secure those arrangements, right? Yeah, that's right. Okay. You've been up to the border quite a bit. Just quickly have what's your assessment of what's happening on the border? I'm spoken to, well, my course is just saying they all fear a conflict will erupt again. Yeah, I mean from covering it from the early days we've seen the same process where seeing an increase in surveillance, showing us coming over and from the Cambodian site into Cambodian territory, you've seen Thai trips and this goes back to November last year we've seen this in Tornado before the second round of fighting and then we've seen Cambodian trips moving back, not pushing against every incursion of Thai soldiers coming into the land because they didn't want to risk an escalation. We've now been seeing that process being happening for months and the times are not significantly but they are taking consistently taking a bit more territory into Cambodia's land and the last two months ago we had warning shots fired that was in that was in the Biaanthamanche and there were shots coming from the border and we've been told that those shots are happening daily, not just there but in Prairie the Kier as well. There was an incident last week with for Cambodian soldiers, wintering and explosion and then we're also hearing from various parts of the country that the Thai is actually still flying the fire jets into into Cambodian territory. They're not dropping anything but they are flying in. So the rest of the conflict is incredibly higher. It doesn't take essentialised decision for this to escalate, it just takes one side to shoot back on these warning shots or something to be fired over the border and we're back there again. Yeah it's a scary scenario, nothing has really been resolved whether it's to scam compounds, the human trafficking networks, the organised crime, the money laundering, the border remains closed in relations. I can't see relations improving until there's a change in government in Thailand and I don't think that's going to happen anytime soon. I think Bullsays are pretty stuck with their with their governments right now. Yeah, Mardley, Mardley, Koot. Nathan, Nathan, thanks very much for your time. Been a great chat, we must do it again soon. Yeah, Jasmeh, thanks a lot. All the best.