The Silent Treatment, Emotional Immaturity vs. Narcissism and Rebuilding Trust

[Music] Hey everybody, welcome to episode 6 of Waking Up to Narcissism of the Premium. Question and answer episodes. So, as we have done in the past, we're going to get right to it because I appreciate the commitment. I appreciate the financial commitment. I truly do to this bonus episode. So, the first question is the silent treatment. Can you please give me information on when Narcissists give the silent treatment? And the silent treatment is essentially just another one of the ways where the Narcissist will try to gain control. And let's kind of talk about, I'll give you some examples as well. So, they actually may give the silent treatment for a variety of reasons. One of the motives is to exert this control over others and still to manipulate them into doing what they want. So, by withholding communication and attention for that matter, then the Narcissists can make their targets start to feel uncertain, anxious, desperate for their approval. And that can give the Narcissist the sense of power and superiority. And one of the key things to remember is that even the person asking this question is still doing it from a place of the. for just to oversimplify the pathologically kind. So, if you, if there is silence, you may often feel like I'm in trouble. And maybe that's something that even happened to you as a kid, where if you, if you did something wrong, then your parents would just say, "I can't deal with this right now." "I can't believe that that's what you did." And they may even walk out, leave you by your own. There are some that feel that even things like timeouts are some of the things that put people in this position as adults. That if they did something that disappointed the mom or dad, then they were given a timeout. And they would sit there and they're supposed to think about what they did. But there are a couple of theories there were one as they just think about ways that they will never get caught again. Or the other is that they sit there and think that they are a horrible person, because they're a little kid. And they are isolated. And being isolated is scary. So if your narcissist in the narcissist in your life gives you the silent treatment, then it's probably because that's what works. That's what causes their partner to feel anxious and to start to then do whatever they need to do just to make things better. So in essence, in that silent treatment is this way for the narcissist to punish somebody who hasn't met there, the narcissist expectations, or who has done something, I mean, in essence, challenge their authority. So by withholding their attention and then a lot of times their affection, the narcissist can make their target feel guilty and ashamed even if they haven't done anything wrong. Because again, often this is just the way that the narcissist feels wronged. So then they will pull back into the silent treatment until the pathologically kind person, then is the one to try to make the repair effort. And in some cases too, if you think about it, the silent treatment might also be then the defensive tactic used by the narcissist to protect themselves from criticism or rejection. So as a kid, if they were starting to get just lambasted or criticized, then they may have just gone into that. You know, there's that fight. There's flight. There's freeze. You know, freeze or fawn where in that moment, the narcissist as a kid is just going to shut down and wait till they are just done being criticized or attacked when they're in their view from their parents. So by avoiding communication, then they basically can avoid facing any negative feedback or confrontation that could damage their self-esteem. So it could be this defense mechanism. So overall though that silent treatment is it is manipulative and it's controlling. It's a controlling behavior that is used to maintain power and control in relationships. So jot it down just a few. Here's some specific examples of how they may use the silent treatment. So one of those ways is punishing the partner. So they give their partner the silent treatment for days, maybe even weeks is away punishing them for a perceived slight or wrongdoing. And again, perceived the narcissist may just go into silent treatment mode because you disagreed or you didn't do something that you didn't even know that they were expecting you to do. And then during this time, the narcissist may refuse to speak or respond even to the attempts by the partner to reach out. And then that leaves their partner feeling absolutely confused and hurt and desperate then for attention. This is an interesting one too. The narcissist may do the silent treatment to control a conversation. So like in social situations, sometimes the narcissist might use the silent treatment as a way of controlling the conversation and keeping the attention focused on them. Because when someone else speaks, the narcissist may simply refuse to acknowledge them or even respond to their comments, effectively shutting them down and then redirecting the conversations or the attention back to themselves. And kind of in line with what I mentioned just a couple minutes ago, avoiding criticism. So if they even feel like they're about to be criticized or about to be called out on their behavior, then they might use the silent treatment as a way of just avoiding the conversation and the conversation altogether. So then by refusing to engage in a conversation or acknowledge what someone else's concerns are, they can shut down the conversation before it even gets started and just avoid any potential threats to their ego or their self-esteem. And then it really can be a way to manipulate. So they might use the silent treatment as a way of manipulating others into doing what they want. So for example, they might refuse to speak to a friend or a family member. You see this often until that person finally comes back to them and agrees to do something for them or meets their demands. Or a lot of time might just be passed. Well, in essence, though, this is what the time passes and now the narcissist comes back into the life of someone and the person that they come back into the life of may feel, okay, finally, we can we can talk again. But to the narcissist most likely, there's a reason. There's an angle. What do they need from that person? And so by withholding that communication and attention again, the narcissist can make the target feel anxious and uncertain. And then that increases the likelihood that eventually that that person that target is going to comply with their requests. Okay, so this next one is a question that I think we're going to probably get off and on throughout the Q&A episodes as well as on the regular waking up the narcissism podcast as well. It simply is and I get this one often in various forms. What is the difference? How do you know if your spouse is truly narcissistic or just narcissistic tendencies or emotional immaturity? And then they ask a second part of that. Have you seen that anxiety, stress or attachment have brought out narcissistic tendencies? And then if so, how do you address that? So the answer is yes or see all of the above. I guess that wasn't doesn't really make as much sense as it does in my head. But narcissism or emotional immaturity really are two different concepts. Even though I like to talk about narcissistic traits and tendencies and emotional immaturity versus narcissistic personality disorder. And in the last couple of waking up to narcissism regular episodes, I tried to tackle the five different types of narcissism. But really narcissism, it is a personality disorder that involves this inflated sense of self importance, which comes across them with that lack of empathy for others and this need for constant admiration and attention. But emotional immaturity, which I believe is what we're mainly working with with individuals with the population, that just refers to a lack of emotional development and the inability to regulate one's own emotions effectively without the need for others external validation. And so where the narcissistic supply or narcissistic malignant narcissism where somebody is just this grandiose person who puts themselves above all others at all times at all times. Then when you look at these different types of ways that people show up with their emotional immaturity, they may be manipulative, they may take a victim status. But it just does keep the other person constantly on guard as well. So narcissists, again, have this grandiose sense of self and they believe that they're better than others and they might become angry or defensive when their superiority is challenged. But then if you look at emotional immaturity, on the other hand, they may have a hard time taking responsibility for their actions and they may struggle to communicate effectively with others and they may have difficulty forming closer relationships. And most of the concepts around extreme emotional immaturity are that the person was never modeled somebody that was taking ownership or taking accountability when they were growing up. And so when I really think more in terms of emotional immaturity when I'm talking about somebody that is being accused of being a narcissist, I feel like the one of the first places to look is take a look into their childhood. And I think often when I let's just say I have a spouse in my office and they're saying, okay, is my partner in our system again? I can't diagnose that person if I haven't met with that person and really done a pretty significant inventory or workup on that person. But if you are looking at just emotional immaturity and you go back, oh, they call it geneogram. It's a fancy way of saying a family tree, but you'll often see a narcissistic family system or an emotional immature family system where there just wasn't anyone in the family that was modeling accountability or taking ownership of things. It's interesting. I'm listening to the Lori Valow and then Chad Daybell will come up next, but trial that's going on right now and I'm listening to the audio of it every chance I get. I want to take so much of that on in the future because there's so much narcissism there, narcissistic family family systems. But some of the interviews that I've listened to around Lori Valow's family is that there seems to be a lot of modeling from the parents of this narcissistic family system where they would be incredibly independent. Incredibly involved in their church and hold positions of authority and go regularly to their temple. But then on the other hand, and this is all just things that I'm understanding. So I don't know if I have to be preface it by saying it's hearsay or accusations, but that Lori's dad was practicing as an attorney without a law license or in some sense had been accused of. I guess this I without all the details, but accused of a lot of within his faith would consider unrighteous behavior while he's also going to his temple regularly or taken a there was an interview with one of the nieces who said that she went and saw I think Rambo when she was eight years old with Lori and her dad and some other people. So there was this avoid our rate of movies and extreme violence. But then they would go because she said that the Lori's dad wanted to go. But then he would also then get up from the pulpit and preach that others needed to repent. And apparently he was the scriptural and spiritual authority and must most. of the places and situations where there were a lot of people gathered. So there can just be this just incredible inconsistencies and then a lack of accountability or taking ownership. Again, one of the nieces who's an adult in the 50s now said that if he did the father did something wrong that he would often just say that that was something that God told him to do. So what was he supposed to do? So if you saw somebody modeling this kind of behavior where they didn't take ownership or accountability of anything, then that's going to be a lot of the behavior of the kids who grew up in that household and that they watched a lot of that behavior. So some of that is that they just truly don't know what they don't know because again, this narcissist have this grandiose sense of self and believe that they are better than others. So they will often then become angry or defensive when their superiority is challenged. But then you get emotionally immature people. They just have a hard time taking responsibility for their actions and they might struggle to communicate with others and and form these close relationships. So in that scenario with let's just say Lori Vallow's dad that if he was the narcissist, then you could see Lori then having these extremely narcissistic traits and tendencies. If not, narcissistic personality disorder altogether, but then lots of emotionally mature actions that would happen in her life. When narcissists may manipulate and exploit others to get what they want, whereas emotionally mature individuals may unintentionally hurt others through their lack of emotional awareness and social skills. So sometimes the more emotionally immature person is going to say things impulsively and I do feel like a lot of the emotionally maturity is basically what do we do with discomfort? If we feel bad or uncomfortable, do we quickly just say no, no, that isn't what happened. I didn't do it that way. You're wrong. This gas lighting is a as a defense mechanism because the narcissist or the emotionally mature person doesn't want to sit with any discomfort and they will often then withhold the truth from somebody because they think they're doing the right thing because I don't want to hurt my partner. But then they're shown up inconsistently and then wondering why their partner can't trust them. Narcissism is considered a personality disorder and it's diagnosed by mental health professional but then emotional maturity isn't not a specific diagnosis but it's like this characteristic that may be present in a lot of different situations. So you may have somebody that has anxiety issues that then is so anxious that they just want to get rid of that discomfort in any way that they can. So they may become emotionally abusive or they may become just up and down. They may have extreme mood swings because of this anxiety and sometimes people want to say, oh, they're bipolar where in reality they might just if they don't have something that challenges their own sense of self, then they feel like everything's great but then all of a sudden if somebody brings up something that seems to go against who the person thinks that they are, then their anxiety might just heightened immediately and then they're going to lash out, get angry, get emotional. And so some of those things like anxiety or depression may just come more from this place of emotional immaturity because the person doesn't know what to do with their emotions because they weren't modeled growing up that having these emotions was actually okay and it's okay to get upset. It's okay to be happy and sad or it's okay to be angry or a whole bunch of emotions and that if you are allowed to express those emotions you can kind of sit with them and they're they're going to pass and then you can you can just be you can get back to becoming just more in the moment. Okay, we've got one more question and I think this one could take a little bit. So the person said trusting again as she said I really don't know how to word this but are there times when somebody doesn't get back to good or and they don't end up trusting somebody else again and if so how do I show my kids the good and right ways to love if I really have recognized I've never had it myself and I'm worried that I won't trust again. This person said I've always felt everything and and everyone just so deeply and so strong that it was even hard to just hang out in crowds. I always wound up with a really bad headache or I would just feel overwhelmed. She said that when her husband used to do a lot of the emotionally manipulative and damaging behaviors that he did and she just said there is a lot that he's done and that he still does that she just feels like her head has been messed with or if her heart's broke one more time she said I feel like I'm going to die. She said sometimes I feel like I should have died long ago from just the emotional pain turmoil and crying. She said I swear that I have cried sometimes if I added it up for years just straight. She said I was able to just slow down a few months ago and and now I'm at least aware I can recognize what's going on and I'll just sit there and I won't talk and sometimes I'll even tell my husband okay you're right and it'll eventually get him to stop and when he stops she says thank goodness he stops but then she says I'm just worn out I'm exhausted but she says I can't stop and I won't stop trying to figure this out as long as my kids are here and with me and my feet are still walking on the earth she said I have to push forward somehow so the question I mean that's a long question but the point I boy understand and especially with her saying how will I ever trust again and how do I show my daughter the right way or my my daughter I guess is how the right way is to love if I've never even seen it myself and and what if I don't feel like I'll ever trust again and this is that part where I want to just immediately say that acceptance acceptance doesn't mean apathy that acceptance means to accept means to take in with everything that it is and without defense meaning that I'm going to have to accept the fact that I may never trust again and that sounds very dramatic but the concept is that if I accept the fact that I might not ever trust this person again then I'm not continually trying to look for why why can't I trust him why are is this an area where I need to trust is this not an area where I need to trust and when you can accept the fact that I may never trust this person again now you can just start to be and you can start to notice that I am not trusting him and that's okay because I'm just starting to learn to be not just be to exist but then now that I'm not wasting so many emotional calories on trying to figure out how what he's saying and can I trust this or but when he says this I go back to this other time and and this none of this makes sense so I'm accepting the fact that it doesn't make sense I'm accepting the fact that I will not trust this person again because that I would be crazy too that it's time to start really listening to your body your body keeps the score learning how to start to trust your gut reaction so then as you start to do that then you're able to just be more present with your daughters and this is a concept and I find that I'm talking to people about this on a daily basis but there's not a lot of data out there because if you are not in a situation like this person is then anyone is going to say look you got to just you can't throw him under the bus in this scenario and you just have to you know keep you and your husband's conflict between the two of you but the reality is people that are in a situation where they're writing a question like this then their their kids already know their kids know that the relationship is dysfunctional and so what I feel that helps in this scenario for the mom is to validate what the kids go through because I'm I would guess that the the kid has a pretty unhealthy relationship with her dad as well and if he is continually also making her feel bad then this is the part where I want the mom the person writing this question to be able to go to their kid and say hey what's that like for you how does that feel because if you're trying to buffer a cover-up for the emotionally abusive person in the in the relationship then in essence if your kid is saying hey I'm so frustrated with dad or I'm so sad and he doesn't show up all the time and he doesn't keep his word and he's inconsistent that if you are not validating that experience for the kid in essence you are telling them again hey your emotions are wrong your feelings don't matter so it's you're actually wrong this is the way that you should feel so you you have this opportunity this mom does in this scenario to then just accept the fact that she is not going to get that aha moment with her husband and I hate that and I'm so sorry that she's going through that but to know with that with that acceptance now she can turn toward the relationship with her kids and start to be more authentic and show up for them and it doesn't mean that you have to say your dad stinks he's a horrible person but if you're saying what's that like for you and you're asking your kids that and they're expressing themselves then you get to validate and say man I know that's frustrating and I have to be you know I have to be honest I've felt those similar things because now they feel seen they feel heard it's the thing that most likely you didn't feel throughout the marriage and the relationship and it's and there's a difference here of pre-entifying a kid so pre-entifying a kid is when you were just so emotionally immature that you just dump everything out on them that they become your many therapist walking around and you just want them to tell you that you're an awesome mom and that you're doing everything great there's a difference between pre-entifying a child in that way for your own validation to then being there and validating their feelings and their emotions and that is what is going to start to to turn the tide or change the the patterns in your relationship to become more healthy so I really feel like this becomes pretty nuanced but if you are in that position we're even wondering this then I think that you're you're hearing what I'm saying and hopefully it's going to make more sense you're going to feel like okay I'm not ruining my kids then by by telling them that I I get their point I understand and no you're validating their experience because they know that the relationship isn't healthy as well and you want them to start to understand that that's not okay the way that their parent is treating them because the kid is going to take that into their adolescence into their into their adulthood into into new relationships oh and that's another part of this how do you how do you show that that kid by validating their feelings and emotions you're letting them know that they don't need to always tiptoe and walk on eggshells to keep other people happy because what we're trying to do now is break the cycle get rid of that intergenerational trauma and help them understand that no I'm not going to I'm going to express who I am and I'm not going to hold back on the things that that I want to say or how I feel when I start to date or I get into a serious relationship I've talked about this on a couple of episodes and I think this example just sums it up so well is one of the people that I met with a long time ago is a woman that was in her 20s and I was meeting with her I think more for something to do with grief or loss but then she just told me a story and she said, "Hey, I think you'll appreciate this." And she just let me know that she'd been on a date. And that on that date, the person that she was on a date with said, "What do you do for work?" And she said, "I'm a computer programmer." And then he jumped right into something, some sort of narrative of, oh, I don't know how I feel about that. Or that would be hard to date somebody who is a woman who's in a primarily dominant mince field, like computer programming, because I would imagine people are going to pick up on you or, you know, that sort of thing. And the client that I was talking to just said, "I was so baffled by why we were having that conversation." She said, "The normal response I get next is how do you like it and what are you working on?" And so she said that mentally she went to the place of, "Hey, can I just get the check?" Like, this is ridiculous. And the reason I like that story so much is because this is a person that grew up with a pretty secure attachment with her parents. And so she knew that it was absolutely okay for her to have her own feelings, her own thoughts, her own opinions, her own career, and that if she was going out with somebody that was questioning her career, that she didn't even understand why we're even having that conversation, because that is not an emotionally mature conversation. If she had been more emotionally immature herself or had not been raised with the ability to feel heard and understood, then she might have been said, "Yeah, I know you're right. Just seem kind of weird, right?" I mean, I don't know. Sometimes I'm not even sure if I really want to keep being a computer programmer. You know, that's what the person who was not allowed to have their own feelings and thoughts and emotions, that how they would respond. I'd love that example because if I go back to this question, that this mom now has a chance to really allow her kids to know that it's okay to have their own thoughts and emotions, and they do not need to tiptoe around people so that they won't get the other people mad, because that is going to show up when there are adult relationships. So I hope that that made sense. So we covered those three questions today. If you have questions, you can shoot them over to me at contact at TonyOverbae.com. We'll get those on some future episodes. And again, I just appreciate your support, and I will see you next time on Waking Up the Narcissum Deb. Premium question and answer additions. Have a great week.