The secret to Duolingo's social success with Zaria Parvez - Semrush Spotlight

(upbeat music) Legendman, welcome back to the Uncensored CMO. Now we've joined up with our friends, Semrush, to bring you a special series, spotlighting different aspects of marketing. And in this episode, when we're talking all about social, with someone who really knows what they're talking about, Zarya Parvez, who is the brains behind the incredible success of Juro Lingo. We get into all about how she made Juro Lingo so popular around the world and the secrets to going viral, you will love this, here it is. Welcome to the show zone. - Thank you for having me, stoked to be here. - Well, I gotta start with your LinkedIn post, right? - Yeah. - Just a few weeks ago, now it's in your move. Fat just set, the world's a light thing. - I did not think it would. I think part of it was like, I feel like changing careers in your 20s is like normal. And I was like, oh, this is not normal. And it kind of became its own speculation fest. And I remember when it happened, I was like, did I do the right thing? What did I just do? And I was like, well, guess it's irreversible. So here we are. But yeah, it was very crazy to see that happen. - I did love your visual. I have to say, you know, sat on dead Juro. I mean, that was love forever. - Yeah, that was actually one of our creative content coordinators, Aduo created that for me. And she was my intern. And when she first started, I really wanted like, an illustrator to be part of our content team. I was like, we need a creative. We need someone who can draw a design 'cause it's so core to do as brand. And then when I left, she like made that for me. And I was like, and we never got to work full time together. But I was like, you're always in my heart. And now she's always on LinkedIn. - Oh, that's so brilliant. - Yeah. - How did you feel? 'Cause I mean, you're so well at, you're so closely associated on YouTube. And it's been a big, big part of your story. What inspired the move at this point to do it? - Yeah, I think the biggest thing really came from this space of like, if I was to create another viral campaign or another viral video for Duo, I don't think it was progressing me. Like, I can say our whole strategy with my eyes closed. I could probably figure out a viral video for Duo very fast. And it became the space of like, I'm 27. I should be expanding and growing and I shouldn't feel like I tapped out in my career this early. So it really came from like, I just wanna do something completely different. So I was like, I don't wanna mascot. I want to be in a completely new vertical and just like to try what it would feel like to have like a huge in-house social content team. And like, what does that look like if you have like the respect of a title and the resources and then also like, the good rapport with the people. So that's kind of where it came from but it was kind of like a rip off the band-aid situation. I was like, I just gotta do it. - I love that. I mean having met Kofi in the door to our team, I can really see the face actually. - Yeah, he's a king, great man. - They know what they're doing. They really push the creative work and they've got huge ambitions and they're very good towards our organization. So that makes a lot of sense. And you talked about being 27. You started Duo when you were 22, didn't you? - Yeah. - How has it been having such a, I mean, most people would kind of like to peek in their careers with the kind of success you've had? How have you kind of cope with that dramatic rise? - I think it's like pros and cons as everything has. I think to do that so young was like made of for a fascinating story. And people are always like, whoa, like how did that happen? But I think there was also like the inevitable uphill battle being like young in a workplace and having that much impact of like, I mean like when I started doing go, I did not negotiate my salary. I don't know if you're even supposed to do that. Like it's like these small things that you're like, wait, you could do that? So I think now I'm going in this space of like, okay, I had all this happen. Might have been the peak of my career. I don't know, but like at least now I have these lessons at taking forward like, A, how do I want to treat junior talent? B, like what do I hope for my future? Like what do I actually want and care about in life and how do I sustain that? And I think social is a weird space because like actually the most junior people can be the most impactful because like young people are at the pulse of culture and that's needed for social. So it just completely flipped the script. And I think I was one of the first very out there vocal open people to people like watch that happen. So I think it came with the pros and cons of it all, but like in the end, I'm like, I'm still processing it. I'm like, holy shit, those past five years were crazy. And I think if I can say, you also speak for a lot of social media managers and people in that area, don't you? And they look to you for inspiration and guidance. I mean, talk about salary. It's insane even the salary of your replacement was. I was not making that much money. I was like, oh, no, exactly. But yeah, that just shows. And I think obviously wouldn't do or first started like the social team was not that big. And like obviously that salary was not associated with it. But now it's like, oh, this is the impact of social first. That if you do it correct and you do it well, it can actually have business impact on a brand where now a brand really values that role. So that conversation also in five years completely has flipped too. And that I think is what everyone looks at as being so impressive because I think when you started, maybe you had quarter a million or three quarter a million kind of followers up to 17 million. I mean, 17 million would be, I can a list celebrity, right? - Yeah, that's why I like it. - Yes, yeah. - Pretty much an a list celebrity. What were the big moments in that journey that really kind of made that happen? - Let's go down memory lane. So I think the first and foremost was like, I was given creative freedom from the get go. And I think I didn't even know permission was something you had to ask for. I didn't know you had to like get approval for post to go out. So coming in with that like, I think almost naive mindset helped me 'cause I wasn't thinking as an advertiser, I was just thinking as like a content creator. And that was kind of, I think, serendipitous of like, just someone young coming in and not really knowing. And then I was like, hey, I have this idea for this piece of content. Can we make it happen? And my boss at times was like, yeah, absolutely like, why not? And then we filmed it and it did really well. And I think what's crazy is like the immediate success of it, I think you don't expect that to happen. You expect it to be like, most brands have a slow burn kind of growing up to it. So when that started taking off, then all of a sudden it was like, oh, this is like a global sensation. And so I remember the first time was like, I was filming with this guy named Mark, who was usually in the suit, great guy. Still a doing go, awesome. Still in the suit. And we were filming and to be like, post this video, we were like laughing. He was like twerking on a conference room table. It was like, now it's like, so we expect that from friends before like, that was never done before. And I'm like, I can't believe we just did this all the while. And then all of a sudden, like NBC is calling. And I'm like, oh shit. And so like, yes, my boss is getting all this PR and I'm like, oh, I'm fucked, like I messed up. But it was all like, what is this? This is amazing. Like what is going on in like Pittsburgh? And I think that transition moment, we're mean marker, like slacking, like, holy shit. Like everyone's like catching up to us and they know what we're doing. And like to see that actually be resonant and people to be impressed with it. So I think that was a big moment. I think duo being able to walk the red carpet, the Barbie premiere was crazy, because there was just like an organic mention. And then of course, like my last hurrah, my final goodbye was killing the bird, which is kind of poetic in a weird way. Oh, I see. But I think that was also like, this was a culmination of everything I worked for for five years to like see just how much people cared when this fake bird died. How, how much of kind of going viral? I mean, everyone wants to go viral. How much of it is planned? And how much of it is just being responsive and seeing what happens? So I think it evolved, like I think five years ago and duo for started going viral was like hopping on trends and doing it quickly. Now it's kind of gone to a space where so many brands do that that it's a little more saturated. So I think timeliness did matter five years ago. I think now actually creative resonance matters more, like how creative can you be? So I think it's definitely, I feel like we're in a transition area, area of social for sure. And so I wouldn't say being timely as much matters anymore, but back then, I think that's totally what like led duo to their success. Oh, that's so interesting. Why do you not think about being as timely? Because I would assume that being timely is kind of interesting. I think every brand or most brand with good senses has learned that they need to be social first. They need fast approval and they need to like have a little bit of shock factor in it. So now if every brand is doing it, is it really resonant? And so now I think brands who are choosing original creative that's not really trend dependent is now really working because all of a sudden, if you have like 30 brands doing one trend, we're now all in favor of the trend, not in favor of like the brand. And so that narrative is shifting. And people are catching on to like, it's not cool anymore for every brand. Like you're starting to see like the silence brand movement and I move to TikTok, which used to be so rampant on like Twitter for-- I see when you say everyone's like jumping on the same trend at the same time, doing the same things and you don't stand out anymore. That makes a lot of sense. Now one thing I'm fascinated about with duo is obviously himself, right, as a character because it's not that common these days. Is it to have a brand character? It's a very kind of old school thing to have a brand mascot. And how important was duo and also the personality that you gave duo as well to become the celebrity that's become? I mean, so crucial. Like I'm now working right at a brand without a mascot. And I'm like, I missed the good old days. Like when you could just throw a mascot in it. And it was just like, it's such an easy identifiable like brand thing that you don't have to like find, like how do I make this relevant to the brand? Like just throw the mascot in there and now it's relevant. But I think what really like reignited him was like shaping duo in the world of TikTok. Because like it didn't really, like Wendy's was on Twitter and you saw that personality. But at the time there was no duo that really existed on TikTok. So we kind of took that injection of like the chronically online, knee-sharable fandom stuff and injected that into him. And then he became who he was. And even when I left, like it was a bit of identity crisis. Like I'm so used to being like, I know a duo would say. Like even now sometimes like, damn, I wish I could send this idea over to do a linko. Like I got these ideas and it's like letting go of that a bit because like that was me. Like that was my personality. I was community managing. I was injecting Zarya into this bird. And now it's this weird meta thing where like, am I the bird? Is the bird me? Is the bird himself? So that evolution has been interesting. That is so fascinating. Yeah, it's kind of problematic. I'm like, I'm just thinking who's taking over? Like yeah, the same as We're going to see we'll see yeah, I think they're still hiring for head of social so we'll see who what's going to happen But I hope they do something different too right like what's the next era and I'm so curious to like what's that? Yeah, that's really fascinating I did some research actually at system one with Tiktok and We were looking at how kind of brands gay gay interaction on the platform and Obviously end-tamers critical, but being recognizable is also so so important What I think characters do brilliantly is do you can turn up anywhere and Immediately you know you watch expect but also you recognize who it is and and when you're competing with so many other brands I think being recognized as who you are is a really big part of it It also like fit magically and serendipitously into the lore of duo like the annoying push notification All this stuff existed right before Tiktok and for I existed and so it almost felt like that's the brand connection versus like a random mascot Just doing random annoying things So it was a very lucky situation of like this was the brand identity already built and it actually happened to work perfectly for Tiktok So let's like bring it over now you casually dropped in earlier you killed duo So now this shouldn't be in the playbook No, I guess then you've spent like five years building and creating what was the thought behind killing duo? Why'd you do it? I think it's a little bit twofold so one I believe firmly that social first insights should impact the product and like the brand second Figure how to move fast within the product they're gonna stand apart and like be that hundred-year brand So that was an ambition. I had at duo's like how do we just marry product and social just a little bit more And so at the time we do these things called app icon changes where they would change the app icon and One of the product managers was one of my really good friends and he was like yeah We're choosing between these two options To change your app icon for like a week What do you think will resonate on social and I was like oh definitely like the duo with the x is on the i's like That's like that's a story Um, and he's like great anyways. We're gonna sell a b-test this so your opinion doesn't really matter yet And I'm like that was such a product person response But it was kind of like okay, whatever. So he goes a b-test and he's like the two options came out the same So we'll choose the social narrative So then where he's like okay, let's choose like the dead duo And then we were in a brainstorm where like our initial plan was like let's just make two or three pieces of content around duo dying I did not think that the world would respond the way they would respond like I wish I could be like I knew it. It was gonna happen. I planned it. I did it and that's the magic of social So we had three posts one was announcing his death One was a funeral and the last one was just like resurrecting like that like that was it And when we posted and we saw how Much people cared and reacted were like we need to drag this on like we need to make this into a whole thing So it ended up going from like three posts to almost eight posts across two weeks And we kept building the storyline with the community So like people are like what what if this happened? What if what about the other characters are they alive? How does that look? And so we kept kind of iterating and spoofing on The nose almost and like what was great is like we had enough buy-in that nobody cared what we did They were like just under the inappropriate, but they're like go for it do it like I wasn't waiting for people to approve this And I think that speaks to the spirit of like dueling goes experimentation and how social survived like it wasn't a thing That was like we always had to get buy-in approval for it was just push it go for it And yeah, it was like one of my favorite campaigns today and just to see the whole world co-create with you and care so deeply I was like damn I like injected this personality that people care about Now am I right in saying you sent his ashes to Dua Lepa? Yes, yes That did happen she didn't respond But we did get a custom urn and sent Macha powder to Dua Lepa because that was that was also the big thing We're like when I first started our TikTok. I built this lore about Dua being obsessed with Dua Lepa Just because her name sentence similar she never acknowledged our existence until he died And I remember getting a slack at like 430 in the morning from her CEO being like Do a fucking leap on I was like no way and I think that for me was like peak But yes, we did send her Macha powder That's incredible Now as you tell the stories the culture must have mattered quite a lot to be able to do kind of stuff You do what would you say are the kind of cultural kind of conditions that Make a successful kind of social campaign. I think the biggest thing is like not being scared of negative sentiment I think what goes viral what breaks the internet what does well Always come with about 15% of negative sentiment and I think once you accept that You are giving yourself more freedom to run and it's also dependence of like what your brand is okay with Like what negative sentiment are you okay with what are you not okay with when do you want to draw the line for that Personally if I get negative sentiment from like other marketers. I'm like we're winning Like that's generally because generally like marketers actually don't like do a link of that much And that's what I learn would like they have a lot of problems with it But like if the common consumer and our common users okay with it then I'm okay with it So that's actually like a guard real for success. I'm like if other marketers are shitting on me. I think we're doing okay I think you're right actually marketers are very bad judge of marketing Yeah, there's a study the other day where I think it's Aaron Burr bass institute asked marketers to rate Their own brands distinctive assets So be like you rating you right and then they asked the consumers and they were so different Basically marketers think that all their things are just Obviously, you know, everyone knows and has heard of them. Most people haven't done You know, so there's a big difference between what you as a marketing and what for sure And I feel like I'm very lucky to have this perspective were like no nobody in my like close friend group or marketers My husband's actually doctors are very different like completely different worlds and like I always joke like whenever we watch like The Super Bowl or a big thing like the way that I watch him mute the ads and go to the bathroom like that's what I am to him I was like our marketing moments are bathroom breaks for the average Joe and I was like that helps me like keep in perspective of like How much does this marketing prison's opinion of what we're doing actually matter and the grand scheme of everything? It shows why creativity is so important doesn't it? You know, you've got to earn the right Exactly exactly. I wanted to quote if I can James cuz in scanner You guys work together very well. He left a lovely endorsement for you on LinkedIn But he said this he said it's our ability to take trends and turn them into something the internet needs and wants to talk about as a real skill Um, I'm packed that a little bit more about how you kind of take the trends and how you turn them into kind of content I think the biggest thing is like I feel like every brand has three or four human truths And seeing like what are those general categories of truths that I could inject trends into So like for duo is like language learning is hard so we make it fun But like that's kind of our north star But the common truths are like people don't like learning a language. It's really difficult People enjoy like using language to like should talk for example So like these were like kind of areas that I knew if I could find trends within and use those truths like that content would really take off And I think it's pretty Relatively easy to like shape trends into moments for your brand based off of like once you know what like your parameters And I think goals are So that made it easy I think like with Dordash now like this is a new challenge where I'm like okay What are like the truths about food delivery and how do we lean into the mean there and like one of like the truths are like It's a guilty pleasure and it's like okay How do I how do I push Dordash to be okay with being like this may seem negative? How do we make it positive and then in general like we're all storytellers and I think Content creation is no different like people love to have the lover story arc They love to have a villain like people on social love a villain So like Google translates was duo is we're like who's Dordash is villain and so these common parts of like the heroic journey And like these story things are still things you can integrate so I kind of look for that when I'm building off of like a trend Yeah, yeah, they say how do you um actually how do you differentiate between kind of short term and long term thinking because There's some research came out recently from the IPA at the UK that actually Creators are really really effective at brand building not necessarily it sales activation In fact, they they act much more like a TV campaign in terms of they you know, they have long lasting effects that kind of thing So how do you sort of like because obviously social you you imagine it to be reactive on there or on it How do you kind of think in the long term so I like how you said you know how you're already thinking about how Dordash is gonna You know have a lover story or have you who's the enemy or what's the kind of truth in you know that's there So how do you kind of think long term as well as yeah short term my favorite like campaign like structure framework Actually came from Wimbledon social team and they disclose this in like an interview with Rachel carton who does like Lincoln bio Great social gal and they talk about the different frameworks of like and they call it bonfire or sorry Yeah bonfire campfire and then firework and it kind of helps social people think obviously in the day to day So like bonfires like that can't like that classic like day to day hum and drum things that are going on Well like firework is like this is the one organic moment in this quarter where we like want to break the internet and obviously That's an ambitious goal but like dead duo kind of came from that where like we have our day-to-day content We have all this things going on But what is that once a quarter in this three-month time frame that we want to create our own original piece of work and like See what we can do with the world And I think that of like okay, here's the scrappy day-to-day to the long-term balancing that has allowed me to figure out like these are the different goals These are the different budget tiers for this. This is how I'm gonna get buy-in for certain things like if it's a day-to-day piece of content I'm way more okay taking a risk because I can take it down versus like a big firework moment with like Cardi B because if I mess up I probably can't take that down And I would really suck to take something down that I just spent millions of dollars on so like Those are kind of how I'm differentiating of like also getting buy-in but like thinking on that short-term and long-term Yeah, I mean talk about getting in buy-in I can imagine it's quite different for you today compared to when you were you were the one person kind of working on You know, how do you how do you do it when you've got a team you've got stakeholders? You know that there's more going on how do you sort of manage the yeah the scaling up process? That was like that was the thing. I was like number one two and three scared about joining um and I was like, listen, who I am, and the work I do will not work at a place that doesn't allow me to run with it. And I actually remember in an interview with Kofi, I was like, listen. I was like, this is what is needs. It's my role. I know exactly. This is what needs to be true for this to work. And I think where I was really lucky is like, I set those expectations in early with him. And like, even our first 101, he's like, my job for you is to make sure you have the ramp to run. And he's like, you tell me when things are getting in the way. And I think a lot of it honestly comes just from a lack of understanding. Like, we say social first a lot. What does that mean? Like, where, give me a definition. Like, no one has really defined it. We haven't contextualized how good organic social is in the sense of like, if it's not meant to give us like conversions, what is it meant to give us then? What does an impression mean? What does share of voice mean? So I think being able to contextualize that data has been crucial. And I've done that. And now it's like also having, setting those expectations. Like, they know who I am, what I'm going to do. And I also always tell my team. I'm like, because I actually, it's funny seeing their evolution too in the past three months. They're like, we've never taken risks like this before. And I was like, I will take the fall. Like, you push it. Do the best creative work possible. I will take the fall for it. And I think that just comes, I think also maybe from a place of privilege of being okay with taking the fall. But I've noticed it takes a lot to fire somebody. So that is my, that is my, what's the worst they're going to do? Fire me. It's a good mindset to come in because I feel like it also has a level of trust. Like, we have trust with each other. And I tried to establish that trust. So like, at the end of the day, like, I want the brand to be successful and do well just as much as you do. But it's probably just going to look a little bit different. Yeah. There's kind of things that sort of pick up on there in that last bit we just chast about. And I think when people are looking for a new job, they don't think enough about who their boss is going to be. Because I think your boss has such an important, you know, impacts on your career. And the fact that Kofi's giving you that freedom and he wants you to do what you've done, you know, give you that ramp is so important. And I love your attitude to risk as well in the worst they can do. Because so much of what holds us back is ourselves, isn't it? And how we worry about what goes on. Yeah, like even I remember the first early days at duo, like, it's like, hey, we're going to like type in all lower caps. And they were like, we are a language learning company. If we do not use proper punctuation, I'm like, what are you going to do? And I remember posting it and they were like, my boss at the time, love her, very risk of her. She was like, sorry, it also gets fine. I was like, it'll be okay. And I think, yeah, the culture and the team obviously makes the biggest difference. Like I'm able to say this even openly because I know they'll just be like rolling their eyes. I'm like, yeah. But like some bosses do suck and they don't allow that freedom. And I think as a social person, like my advice is like, get out. Like if you can get out of that situation, find a place. Even if it's a small and known brand that has more freedom. Like creative freedom is more, it was more important to me than like salary, title, all of that. I was like, I need that freedom to fly. Otherwise, I will be like stuck if I don't have it. I mean, the other thing that comes out in a culture is what happens when things go wrong. Yes. That reveals everything, doesn't it? Oh, 100%. How do people react? Have you, have you had any tough moments where things haven't gone as the same thing? Yeah. Oh, of course. I remember. So when I first started at Duo, there was like the Amber Heard and Johnny Depp trial was going on. And at the time, we were just commenting. And I remember I think I commented like, does Amber watch TikTok? And that got like so skewed. Like people are like, doling supports blah, blah, blah. Sorry, I was doing this. And they found me and docks me and all of this stuff. And I remember being stressed. Like at that point, I was like, it's been a good run. They're going to fire me out. And I was like, this is it. Now, what are they going to do? They're going to fire me. And I remember our CMO at the time, Kami. She came up to me and she's like, and I still use this quote everywhere. She's like, you do not know where the line is unless you cross it. And that was it. And I was like, yeah, what she said. But like, exactly. And she was like, I'm glad you made this mistake. Now we know. That's on the bottom of every email now. Yeah, literally. Exactly. And I think it's such a good mantra because it's like, because we're so scared of even crossing the line. Even though 1% of the time that it happens, we just stop and don't do anything. And she was like having this brand faux pas this mess was like actually worth the 99% of the time it worked out. But again, that comes back to like the leadership around me. Like, she could have been like, you're out. Like, that's it. And I think that's something I continue to like look for and also be like, how do I be for now? My team, if they mess up to like, am you like Kami and not freak out? And like, how do I contain crash outs and make sure that like, at the end of the day, it's a brand. The good part is is like, the internet moves on, things happen and people find another brand to hate on. So I try to keep myself grounded in that. Yeah, remind people what everyone else is going. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. But you're right. Like, we fear the 1% that goes wrong. And therefore, we don't push ourselves on the 99 other things that we should do. Yeah, 100%. Yeah. And now one thing that stands out for me in your story is the fact that you've built a personal brand. Haven't you? Like, almost alongside and we've all followed your story and you'd be very generous about sharing your journey through the newsletter and through LinkedIn. How important is it to kind of have a personal brand running alongside? Oh, it's everything. I think when I started it, I honestly like made that LinkedIn post for like my college university professors. And I first was like, I'm sorry. And I'm behind this. Like, I didn't think it was going to become a personal brand. And then I think like that first post got like 50,000 likes. And I was like, this was just for my college professor. Like, why is everyone so invested? And then from there, like to this day on like that post was the best gift I could have given myself now. Because at the end of the day, like, we all work for corporations. We all work for brands. And like the only thing that you can really genuinely have that is full yours is what you put out in the world. And so I mean, it's unlocked opportunities. It's allowed me to be here. Like, it's allowed me to just meet new people. And like, always know I have that to fall back onto. And like, I've always loved writing. Like, I've actually wanted to be a copywriter journalist and like another life. I was like, that is where I think my creativity shines. And this was something people were interested in that I could write about. And like, people were engaging with it. And I think the brand thing also worked out. Because it's one of the first times that like a brand also allowed someone to take credit for their work. Which was very unique to do Lingo culture. Like, it was not like, okay, like coordinator, like, you be quiet. Now the boss is going to go like our CMO at the time. And even my boss at the time was like, you did the work girl. Like, you're going to be in this interview. And I remember like, shitting bricks. It was like, but the it was with the rolling stone. And I was like, I don't want to do this. I don't want to do this. And my boss is like, no, you're going to go do it. And you're going to go do it well. And like, we have your back. Go do it. And I think like having people in your corner encouraging you. Kind of also gives you like that 2% confidence every single time. So then I was like, wait, I can write. I do have thoughts to bring. I can be strategic. So it's all about the advocates and the people around you that allow you to build that brand. And I think so many businesses don't realize it's a win-win, isn't it? Because it's a win-free person as you build your own profile and opportunity arises. But it reflects so well on the company. And you're a walking advert for the company as well. Yeah. And it in terms of it also attracting talents into the business. Because those people will be watching you going, I want to do what she's doing. Absolutely. And it's like, that's, and I think that's what's so cool about Duolingo at that time. It's like, they understood that. Like, it's almost like they were always thinking 10 steps ahead. And I'm like, I don't know how y'all did it and how leadership did it. But that's what their environment was. And I think it was also this weird space where like I became Zaria from Duolingo. And I'm like, wait, I'm Zaria as a human. And what do I mean outside of that? Which is also like kind of I guess the cons of it of like you become so in this one zone, this one bubble that you start to be like, I want to be known for more, hopefully, of doing good in the world than like a mascot suit, you know? And like, I think that's where I'm at. Like, this is my attempt of like risk taking on myself now. Like, okay, I walk the walk on her brand. I'm going to take a risk now on Zaria. And I'm going to risk and take a better my creativity and be like, what can I do beyond this world in this realm? And you're catching me in the middle of this risk. And it's like been a couple of months and it's intimidating. But I feel like every day I'm like, wow, I'm actually like learning something totally new. And that's all thanks to like the encouragement of building this brand and what that gave me. I mean, sticking on that theme a bit, what do you hope happens next for you? Oh, what would you like to look back on and go, do you know what? This was the next chapter and how it unfolded. I really wanted to walk the walk of bringing a traditional brand social first. Because I feel like that was something and feedback I kept receiving was like, well, you were at Duolingo, like you started from zero to one, like you didn't have all these guardrails. So if I'm able to make DoorDash a social first place, I'm like, fuck yeah. Like I did it, like I took a place, I did something before. And now I'm getting them to do something totally different. And it's working that I'm like, that is, that is a narrative. I hope to get out of this job. Yeah, that's very, very cool. I can see that happening as well. They're the kind of business and doing the. Yeah, exactly. And like they want, they want to do it. So that makes it easier to do it. Yeah, that helps us. Exactly. Working with them rather. And now we must mention the A words. I'm sorry to drop some comments. We've gone, however long we've gone with that, talking about it. But, you know, AI is transforming everything right all over the place, isn't it? How is it changing, you know, how we do social in terms of whether it's production or how we, you know, spot trends or anything like that? How are you seeing it? It's like, it's a really weird space to be a social person with AI. Because like on one end, you have like investors being like, AI will help with production. And like it's going to make things faster. And then you have consumers being like, don't you dare touch AI. And you're just kind of that middleman like, hey guys. So the way that I've been approaching it is like, I want AI to do all this stuff that I never liked about marketing. So like, it's down to like, you know, building all the way down to like grabbing insights, grabbing these reports, contextualizing what we're doing versus like the actual creative production aspect of it. So that's where we are right now. We're like, okay, like maybe there's a way to like punch up what we're doing. I think one of my favorite interviews recently, and I also mentioned this in the keynote earlier today, was like with David Drogon, he was like, AI is going to replace the average. It'll get you from like zero to six, but the people who are six to 10 like. it's not going to replace that. And I think for me that is very like, oh, so you can still be an expert at your craft, still be an expert at what you do. But now you can focus more on that creative work versus like focusing on like all the nitty gritty. So that's how my teams are approaching it and how we're approaching it. I do have belief that I think in the next two years, like the video production scale that is going to become way better than it is today. And it's going to become harder and harder for us to differentiate. And there will be a time I'm convinced where consumers will be okay with these AI fees and this AI content. But we're not there yet. And that's okay. And also what I noticed you do is so what your copywriting is just beautiful as well. And that's of originality of thoughts. You don't even see an AI do you? No. And the creative leaps that you make that, you know, who would have thought of sending ashes to Julie? I mean, I don't think AI is going to come up with that. Exactly. And it's like, but you know what AI can do? Make the shipping label. Figure out, do exactly. Do all this stuff that you just don't want to do. And it's like, okay, now on to the next idea. I was wondering that it's actually just in what I do really, whether AI could monitor trends for me and alert me to things that are happening in culture, and almost be my eyes and ears and sort of almost give you that information, real time information. If AI could do that, I would love that. Because then you're like, you don't have to be chronically online anymore. Like it allows space for you, also social people to like breathe and live a life. So yeah, if you find the tool for that, let me know. I think we should do that. I mean, now I have one question here from Sam, who's my social media manager, who's like dying for Sam. There you go. Big love to Sam. Actually, he's amazing, by the way, the superfanials. But he just said, if you were running a podcast, what kind of what kind of thing would you do? I mean, obviously like podcast clips, I think your huge new guys know that as well. I actually feel like call her daddy. I'm sure you guys have heard. But I feel like Alex Cooper does a great job of like keeping people engaged. And I think she finds a really good way of like, obviously she has like these hosts in like, sorry, not host. She has guests who are very famous. But I think her ways of like staying on the trend and understanding the fandom lore of each person and leaning into that is really smart. So yeah, find the lore behind each guest and then make content with them as additional to your podcast clips. The lore behind each guest. That's nice. Like that. Exactly. What's the tea? Where's Sam? You listening. Now we talked a lot about kind of creating content, social being on top of things. There's a flip side to that, of course, isn't there? In the, I mean, how do you cope? But I'm just wondering how do you cope with I'm on well. Hey, how do you stay on top of it or you're creating lots of content, you're leading others, you know, you're in you're in demanding businesses doing lots of things. It's very hard, isn't it? How do you switch off, get the balance right with all this kind of thing? Yeah, I think the biggest thing is like I work a nine to five to like sustain myself. But I've never seen work as my end all be all. And I stay very true to that. And I always tell my team that I'm like, if you're still on at 5 p.m. like I think there's beauty and like finding other things in life that bring you joy and like work will never be the thing that will give me joy and sustenance, I guess, which is like, and I'm very intentional about that. Like even part of the reason why I left duo was like, it was getting too big. I was like, I feel like I read where I go and these like, certain niches people are like, what are you doing? What are you going to do next? What are you doing? And I'm like, I just want to be sorry from DoorDash. Like, who is she? And I think that was like part of it is like figuring out like, what is actually bringing me joy? What is actually bringing fulfillment and happiness? And if it's not work, which hopefully shouldn't be, then like, how do I kind of prioritize my time into that? So like, there's still moments where like, I love writing on LinkedIn. But if I'm like, yeah, I don't like, if I didn't write for three weeks, that's okay too. So I think finding that balance is not to do exactly. I'm talking about energy as well, because I'm convinced that you need to go where the energy is and get your feed should be what gives you energy, rather than what takes energy. It's very easy for feeds to kind of depress you and distract you rather than actually, you know, curate your feed to give you inspiration. Yeah, go to Substag. That's like Substag. It's so, it's so peaceful. And I feel like the brands are going to come and it's not going to be peaceful shortly. But it's just. You're in early now. You're in the window. Exactly. Exactly. But right now, I feel like seeing long form content is really thrilling and exciting for me now. Like, I actually find myself stirring away from like short form. So like long form YouTube, things like Substag have also been very creatively fulfilling and also like building stuff with your hands, big Lego girl, love to build Legos. And I think it's like I'm still creative, but I'm not staring at a screen all the time. There's probably a reaction, isn't there? We're all wanting to be in real life. We're wanting to do craft. We're all wanting to do things that, you know, that, you know, are the opposite of of our online self. You write actually about long form. I mean, doing this podcast being amazing. People will listen to 45 minutes. 100%. Yeah. All the way through, understretched. It's incredible. But I think people yearn that sort of more intimate, longer form of talking as well. So I want one thing that I did make me smile that you said the other day. I might have been on your substag actually. You said the best marketers hate marketing. Yeah. I think the best marketers aren't even marketers. Yeah. Like, honestly, the people I meet that are entrepreneurs, the founders and you go, Hey, man, that marks you. It was amazing. Go, what marketing. Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. I mean, I don't even have to do myself a best marker to be clear. I just feel like there's moments where like, we get so caught in the weeds of like, if this is looking this way, but if her face looks this, but if like, like these little details where I'm like, nobody gives a crap. Like we are, if we are lucky, we are 5% of somebody's, not even 5% is a big number, maybe five seconds of somebody's day. And I think the more we treat ourselves like that, and it's not to like look down at our work, but like also like a doctor is probably 5% of your day. Like it's not the main show. And I think the more that we realize that, the more allowance we give ourselves to like, take bigger swings, take creative risks. Like even if a brand is getting canceled, you probably see one or two videos about it and scroll on. Like for us, it's everything because that's our brand. But like for most people, they're like, damn, did you see that? Anyways, and I think having that reality check allows us to be more creative and better because now we're just putting out good work in the world versus like, is this good marketing? Yeah. This is why Ryan Reynolds is one of my favorite masters. He wouldn't call himself a boxer, but he turns, he buys a brand, he'll do a video like overnight, he'll entertain people, he'll make everyone watch it, and it's just brilliant. Exactly. He acts a bit more like he does. A hundred percent. I mean, his astronomer thing. Perfection. It was great. I know. Exactly. So we learn not from that. Just to end on, you're just on your keynote speech at Semra. Yes. If you could pick one thing from your speech, you want everyone to learn from what would it be? Fine time for boredom in your day. I think that was a really like reintroduce boredom into your life because I think in the stillness of life and the things like go on a walk without a podcast. And I think the silence of life almost becomes space. And I think at first it feels very uncomfortable because we're so used to being like, inundated with stuff all the time. But once you become comfortable in that stillness, it just becomes space to grow and experiment. And so I'm very big about reintroducing boredom. That is such a good advice. I love that. It's almost like your brain works everything out, doesn't it? It's silence, isn't it? Exactly. And you don't give your mind a chance to sort of. And I feel like we sometimes feel ashamed of being bored or feel ashamed of not productively using our time. But I think it's okay to be not productive all the time. There you go. What brilliant advice to end on. Sorry. Thank you so much. Thank you for having me. I love you to talk. I'm really appreciate you telling us. Congratulations on the boredom. Thank you. Crazy. We'll see. It's coming. Exactly. Thank you so much. Cool. Thanks. Thank you very much for listening or watching Uncensored CMO. I hope you enjoyed that. If you did, please do hit the subscribe button wherever you get your podcast. If you're watching, hit subscribe there as well. I'd also love to get a review. Reviews make a big difference on other people discovering the show. So please do leave a review wherever you get your podcast. If you want to contact me, you can do on over on X at Uncensored CMO or on LinkedIn. Well, I'm under my own name, John Evans. Thanks for listening and watching. I'll see you next time.