The Secret To Asking For A Pay Raise (Mika Brzezinski)

[Music] Hello and welcome to my brand new series, doing it anyway. I'm Katty Kay. I've been fascinated by the subject of confidence ever since I first realized how much a lack of it was holding me back in my work and in my personal life. I've spent years studying the science and the art of confidence, writing books about how we can close the confidence gap between men and women and talking to younger women about how to pass it on. I've wanted to do this series for a long time because one of the things I've found is that confidence means taking a risk, getting outside of your comfort zone, acknowledging your fears and doing it anyway. In this series I'm going to be speaking to psychologists, business executives, and female leaders to unpack how you can grow your confidence and ultimately change your life. Today I'm joined by my friend and colleague, Mika Brzynski, who's best known for anchoring MSNOW's Weekly Morning Show, Morning Joe. Mika and I are old friends and colleagues and we've both written books about women and that whole forny world of work. And I've always seen Mika as somebody who's never afraid to ask hard questions. Things like, why is it so embarrassing to ask for a pay raise? What do I do when I have a setback at work? And why do I have that niggling feeling that I'm undervalued by the people around me and perhaps even by myself? If those are the kinds of things you wrestle with, stay with us. This conversation is for you. This episode is presented by Vanguard. When it comes to investing, many of us feel totally out of our depth and we just don't know where to start. And we can't be blamed for that. A lot of us simply don't have the time or the confidence to take the first steps. And that's where Vanguard can help. With their managed ISO Vanguard experts do the hard work for you. They'll match you to an investment plan that feels right for you, and then they'll handle the rest. No second guessing, just smart professional management. So stop wondering how to start investing and start making your money work harder. Search Vanguard managed ISO to find out more. When investing your capital is at risk, tax rules apply. Mika, I'm so glad to be having this conversation with you. It's so great to be here. Katty. Katty's been like, well, we're just really OGs. I'm just saying that before these messages were out there, we were screaming from the rooftops. You were screaming bank confidence, and I was screaming, no, your value. And stop apologizing. And we're still at it some 20 years later, and there's still a lot of work to do. Right. I mean, I sometimes think, wow, has it really been my first book came out in 2008? Your book, you know, your value, women, money, and getting what your worth was published in 2011. And sometimes I think, have we really not fixed all of this yet? Do we still need to be putting these messages out? But I really think we do. We do, and I feel like actually we were making headway, and then there's been some backsliding. And, you know, a lot of it has to do with the landscape that, at least in the states and the state of the world, even the political landscape, you know, row. All these things that impact our sense of value have, I think, kind of impacted confidence and the sense of knowing our own value. So I'm actually blaming others. I think you're right. I think this is actually a conversation that is now needed more perhaps than it was even a few years ago. So let's start at the beginning when you wrote, know your value, which then launched a whole global movement for women about understanding their value in the workplace. What was it, Meeker, that made you want to write that book and put those thoughts out there? Well, I mean, for me, I was restarting my career after a pretty successful career that ended in being fired, unsuccessful end, but a really good career and a fulfilling one. And morning Joe had started, and I thought I was pretty good at my job. But, you know what, part of the job is being able to get a great deal for yourself. And I kept contracting that out to other people and then maybe trying to be the ringer, but not doing a great job on it. And when you are working in a certain industry, your job is not just to do the job well, but to make sure you take care of yourself just as well. And I didn't, I didn't get that part of the equation. And I remember I was getting a contract to host morning Joe. I was a year out from having been fired and looking for work for a year. So my confidence was low. And I didn't use the skills that you, you teach in the confidence code. And now that I teach and know your value. And that is that you still have to know your value even when your stock is down. You have to have something to say. And actually, at the point that I was at in signing the morning Joe contract, the show was really taking off. And they needed us. That includes me. And why would I get any less than anyone else on the show? And why would I settle for that? And I didn't know my moment to take it. And I think a lot of women often underestimate themselves. They feel so lucky to be there. They sign at the first piece of paper that's handed to them because they just want that stability. And they want the uncomfortable part to go away. And that uncomfortable part, it is your job to drag that uncomfortable part as long as you can drag it out as long as you can to get the most that you can out of negotiation. And I just didn't know to do that. And you never had to do it before. Was it that you came in with your confidence low? You had two young kids? You were just that feeling. I think that so many women have had is like, I'm just lucky to be there. I don't want to rock the boat because I'm there by the grace and favor of these employees. It was not the bit that I asked for anything else. How quickly can I sign you're like, yeah, that was me. And I had that the thing was that was really a trigger to like write the book and figure this out and then share it with everyone. The trigger was when I signed the Morning Joe contract and it was far less than everyone else. And quite frankly, I had no one to blame but myself. No, no, I worked for a great guy who needed me to kick his butt and to hold him to it. But what company is going to say, hey, listen, you don't know your value. Let me remind you and you tons more. Let us pay you more money. That's not how it works. They're not going to be nice. They're not going to say, oh, she's so great. I've noticed she's working so hard. No one's going to be watching you. You have to look at what you're doing. You have to make sure you keep track of the data about yourself. What it is that you bring to the table, you have to be sure you can articulate it effectively and stand by those words. And so I realized way back then that I had done it again. I had signed a contract too soon. I had, you know, lurched for stability as opposed to waiting for the moment to be right because it was my moment to ask for more and I missed it. And so I thought, my gosh, if I can't do this, I grew up with multilingual parents who came here as refugees. One became the national security advisor of the United States of America. And the other became a globally renowned sculptor artist who makes pieces that are two to three stories high and several tons. I love your mom worked with the chain. It's amazing on her art. She's so cool. What is it about me that I can't do my job fully, which includes the part of taking care of myself. And so I set out to find out more about this. And when I wrote that first book, you wouldn't believe I had liked the former chair of the FDIC. I interviewed women from the, you know, the highest heights in every industry and they all struggled with it. And I realized I was really tapping into something that was quite universal across all ages, stages, places in life, women who have made it despite themselves, women who can't get get in the door. This book was for everyone and still is. And I did it because I wanted to figure it out for myself and I wanted to pay it forward for other women because once I did figure it out, I was like, my God, these are simple techniques that take confidence to put these skills into play. But once you do, the results are magnificent. Do you always get the money you're asking for? No, but you get that muscle and then you ultimately will get that money. And the more you put yourself through it, the easier it is. It's a muscle. It's like building, it's like going to the gym. It's kind of boring. You have to do it and you have to develop that muscle. You know your value in the context of a pay raise meeker. But do you think there is, when you started doing the research for the book and talking to people, is there a broader value discrepancy do you think that women and perhaps particularly younger women have compared to young men? man? Does it reach beyond money? I love this question. because I really want to focus on how know your value at this point, as we have grown and developed on a number of levels here in the United States, but also abroad, it is not just about your career. The career is really just the example. Knowing your value and the skills that you use to get value back at your job can be transferred literally to every relationship in your life. Getting value back, whether it is a spouse, a boyfriend, girlfriend, your kids. Every single relationship in your life, you need to know your value, and if you don't, they will own you. Okay, those kids are going to own you, and they'll see it in your eyes, and I struggled with that with my girls as well, because I didn't know my value all around. I was dancing for everybody and trying to be the person who made everyone feel good in the room. I was like trying to make sure everyone knew I was nice. I had all my priorities wrong because I wasn't commanding in my relationships, respect back, value back, and that's why I know your value is about way more than careers. It's about living a full life and being fulfilled by your relationships, getting that value back and knowing that you deserve it and knowing that it is a standard that you have for yourself, commanding respect, not fighting about it. It's just there. And that was something that I really struggled with, and I realized a lot of other women did too, and that it's something you really have to work on with yourself every single day. If you're apologizing your way into conversations, if you're undermining, if you're being self-deprecating, if you can't look in the room and say, you know what, I'm looking pretty good today. You've got to really think about that because you cannot, you can't live your days and nights feeling like you're less than. And there are ways that I talk about how women can practice that, and some of them are really technical, and how to do a good Zoom interview, or a Zoom conversation, or how to shake hands, or how to walk into a room, and immediately command respect. All of it is, it's not just the words you use, the data you know, but it's your physical presence, and it's useful, and it's important, and it's effective if you want to be a good parent, if you want to be a good spouse, which I wasn't. You know what, Academy, what I found out, part of knowing your value is communicating what you need, and what you want, communicating effectively. People can't read minds, right? They don't know what you want, unless you say it. And so many years I had a hard time saying what I wanted, or what I needed, and then you're left unfulfilled, and then you don't express what you need in the right way, because you're unfulfilled for so long. It goes back to at work, if you're paid less than your colleagues, and you know you're being treated badly, or you know you're behind, and then you let it go, and you don't verbalize it, and you don't communicate effectively, then you either explode, or you're kind of not pleasant to be with, and then ultimately it kind of becomes this recurring phenomenon in your life. You and I have both been through divorces, and I own a lot of what you're saying about in relationships, and how this is not just a career issue, but I think it is true. How can you expect even the person you live with to read your mind if you don't say what you want? That issue of value, where do you think it comes from, Meekam? And I have thoughts about it, where, why is it that, and I see it still in when I'm coaching or mentoring younger women, I still see this issue of slightly of apologizing. I mean, a lot of the things that you talk about, I've not wanted to take up space, not wanted to ask for too much, wanting always to be a good girl. Did you come to conclusions about where that all comes from? Absolutely. I think we're, you know, in a way there's a lot of work out there that's far more articulate than I am at this, but obviously the socialization of girls versus boys has a huge impact on that. We still treat them differently. Yeah. In my family dynamic, I was the youngest and the only girl. So I was in a different category from the get-go. The expectations felt different. Now, my parents really were frustrated at how difficult I was to educate. I had some sort of learning disability had had a role been around. Maybe things would have been different, but it wasn't. And I really, really suffered in school. So then there was this intellectual difference. You were in a very intellectual family. I was in a very intellectual family, and it was heartbreaking at times how I felt when I disappointed my parents on that front. Like it, it was really because I love them and I revered them. And they are, as you know, you know, you knew my parents, but you also know how much I love them and how the entire way that I look at my life is framed by their example. They had such a profound impact in terms of what I want for myself, and what they were able to do come into this country with nothing fleeing quite frankly for their lives and able to build from nothing this incredibly fascinating multi-dynamic and intellectual atmosphere that we could grow up in. Was there pressure on you to kind of please people in a way that they wasn't on your brothers? So that dynamic was interesting, yes, but it was, it came from a different place. Like we would have one of my brothers Ian, he's a Republican, Marx, a Democrat. My dad would do these family debates at dinner, my mom would end up on wherever she's an artist, so you never know where they're going to land. But I always found that because I didn't intellectually measure up, my brothers are both literally brilliant and their knowledge of history and their ability to retain information matched my fathers. And I see my dad in both of them when I hear them talking. And I knew at a very young age, that was never going to be me, that my skills as a student were bad. And I think today, perhaps they would have been better because we have more ability to figure out how to teach kids who may be learned differently. But back then, it was just the Wild West. And I was a real failure. And so as a result, I had to find a different way to survive in this dynamic. And in these family conversations, I found that when things got really tense, I found that my space ended up being like the person who cracked the joke at a moment that would maybe bust the tension or, you know, help my mom feel better about the argument. You were the people, please. The people, please are the mediator of the comic, the comic genius. And, you know, there's actually quite, I did, I did start to realize that that's actually a talent that's actually important. I mean, because to have a civil conversation, you have to be able to laugh and you need someone to help connect one side to the other. I love that example because you take something that somebody could see as rather disempowering and you make it empowering. And let's talk about that, how we go from being good girls to empowered women's. Because actually, if you look at the stats of what women are up against, I think it's easy for us to forget the barriers. You look at only half of American businesses considered women's career progression of priority in 2025. 20% of companies are now placing low or no priority on women's advancement. That number rises to 30% for women of color. Women are less likely to receive emotional support. Only 50% say that they've had regular check-ins with their managers compared to men. And I wonder if we, when you look at all the kind of obstacles that we face, how do we take what you took, which could have been this good girl, people pleasing, not knowing your value and flip it and overcome the hurdles that we face, which are manifold in the business world and become women who are empowered. How do we get there? You know, first of all, you have to look at what your skills are and value them for yourself. You're not, you know, there would be no Brazinski family without Mika Brazinski. You know what I mean? Instead of the way I looked at it when I was a lot younger, as that way I fit in this family, you know, I realized that I'm the one the biggest link. Yes, yes. And stop doing that. Like none of that thinking and talking. Now let me just be completely bored with that because it's boring to be negative. It is boring to vote against yourself. It is absolutely done. It is unsuccessful and it is completely destructive. And it's the go-to for so many of us. Cut it out. Cut it out. What is it that makes you great? You got to be able to say it and you got to know it. And if you can't put it into words, you really can't expect anyone else to because you're the one who has to speak for you. And I don't mean to sound like I'm sort of like a angry or anything like that. I'm just saying, come on. So those meetings with the managers, if they're not coming to you, how can you get to them? How can you get some weekly meetings, or monthly quick lunches? Maybe start out by meeting with a manager and not asking for anything, just being delightful, you know, and connecting and getting the browns worse and having the relationship, having a relationship, knowing what it is and it's going on in their life, finding out what they need, you know, looking for voids to fill, like grab opportunities by looking for them, by making those relationships and putting yourself out there. And I'll tell you, my events across the country, the one thing I learned is that women really struggle with putting themselves out there, putting themselves in uncomfortable positions and pushing through that, so they learn how to do it better next time. Is that what you mean when you talk about the good girl trap? Yeah, well, we want to stay in a box, you know, follow the rules, here's the line, it's straight, here's the line, it's straight, there's another here and here, and there's we like this, you know, and sometimes that is not exactly what, I mean, I don't know one successful man who plays by the rules, who's like waiting for his opportunities and looks at the documentation and says, I shouldn't be looking for this until this time, and like, there are no rules. Make relationships and find your way forward by putting yourself out there and seeing what works. And also, it's okay to fail. Those failures are, I mean, you can talk a little bit about this because in confidence code, Katie, you talk about how failures are like in a way they're unbelievable lessons that stick with you. Yeah. And by the way, we're all going to fail. You failed. I failed. Our bosses have failed. Our spouses have failed. It's like a really annoying bit of the human species we're going to fail. It's like a design flaw. It's a feature not above. Okay, Mika, we're going to take a quick break. We've high confidence it was Russian. Holden the Russians accountable is world war story. They took down a British passenger jet containing 350 people. Man in the Kremlin is playing Alex, you've got to ask yourself, you want to play or not. You're the prime minister. If done, nothing. We would need to understand the policy context. All the relevant context will be structured as a framework today. And disseminated into an operation order, or Frago, or Frago that says to kill the president of Russia. Yes. New, from Goldhanger. Who is going to be able to pull this off? An audio drama journey like no other. Men like Duffy, they are our most valuable weapons. Revised as a technically rigorous geopolitical action forever. We're Britain plays in strongest hands against its strongest foe. Bear hunt. Available now, wherever you get your podcasts. Welcome back. That trap of being the good girl, can you talk about that a bit more? One of the things I found super interesting when we wrote our book on power was that women have this tendency in the workplace to do things called non-promotable tasks. I think it's a little bit ties into this. We do these things that it's organizing the lunches, it's onboarding the interns, it's sending out the birthday cards. It's all of the things we do to facilitate a bit like what you did around the brisinesky dinner table. Yes. Facilitating a good work environment. Facilitating. Actually, they're very useful things and probably companies should value them more, but they don't, you're never going to get promoted because you sent out the birthday cards. Right. But the backlash, what I'm interested in is how do we say having recognized that we do those things and that they're not going to get us promoted and that they do take up some of our time, how do we handle the backlash that comes our way when we don't play to type? When we're not so agreeable, when we're not the good girl, when we're not the person that organises the brown bag lunches or sends out the leaving card invitation, whatever it is, because we do get backlash when we don't do those things, when we don't play to type, when we don't be the good girl, we get backlash. How do we handle that? Well, I mean, first of all, if you walk into a job and everyone just turns to you and says you should be doing the birthday cards, they don't know a thing about you, and it's just they're assuming it. That's not a good fit. But if you develop into that because you have offered or have taken the opportunity to do those things, now listen, if you like doing those things, some people really like, I tend to like doing that stuff, but you got to do it because you enjoy it, the extra stuff, or you should be doing other extra stuff that you enjoy that's going to get you where you want to go, so I personally wouldn't take on those roles, I mean, if they are outside of the job, if it's not what you want to be doing. So, I mean, I wouldn't be like, no, I'd be like, good, I've got, you know, I'm doing this, how can we do this together? Or, gosh, I'm trying to think I'm going to be working late on project A and project B. Can we find someone else who can be like the point person on this? I just want to make sure that it gets done. It's so important. There's got to be a way to deflect it. And it would be really good at this. Richard would be really good at this because he, yeah, this is such a good fit. Field of expertise. Right up his alley and, but then also start doing your job and be doing your job as effectively as possible. I mean, if you have value, again, it's, it's about the bottom line. If you're doing a great job at what you do, if you're, if you're pushing in areas that are bringing value back to the company, it's going to be okay to not do the birthday cards or whatever. So, I sometimes think people take on things to make up for what they're not bringing to the table. Don't get into that trap. Make sure what you're bringing to the table in terms of your, your job is top notch work. And only do things on the side that you want to do. If you really enjoy it, if you're going to end up being kind of frustrated that you've been pigeoned hold into doing office party or something like that, that's going to ultimately, ultimately go back to the equation I was talking about earlier where after a time, you get kind of sore about it, you kind of get annoyed about it and then you end up undermining yourself because people can tell you're kind of pissed off. So you've got to keep it clean in terms of what you're doing, is it what you want to do? Or is it what you have to do? Is it your job? If it is, do it really well. Yeah. And I think you're right. I think there's always a way to deflect without being as brusker saying, no, I'm not doing that because then you get into a kind of standoff that is actually probably not going to benefit you. And Katty, I would say deflect immediately because you don't want to be that person who says, okay, I'll do that. And then it goes back on it. So true. Yeah. By yourself time, give yourself leeway, say no upfront. Right. And also, or you're that person who's so mad that they're doing that, that you're saying out to people, can you believe I'm the only one who has to do it? And you're like chattering about it because you're mad. You're venting, not a good, you, this is like, keep it clear. Be happy with what you're doing. And you know, the, the chattering about, why am I the, oh, we don't want to get into that. It never works. It may be making a great point, but it doesn't work to be voicing disgust about something that you said you would do. You're a TV anchor and an author and a conference organizer and a businesswoman. You're also a boss and you've hired tons of young women and tons of young men. And there are certain kind of myths about young women, or women generally. And one of those myths that I wanted to ask you about is that we're not risk takers. How, how do you see that amongst the young people that you hire? Do you see that we have less of a appetite for risk than men do? I do. Is that wrong to say? I know. I know. I want you to say exactly what you see. Yeah, I think that I feel like young people today have suffered a number of gut punches between COVID school shootings and now the age of Trump. I think that they are hurting and I don't know if this is just women, but I think taking a risk at work or, you know, promoting themselves, it's like I'm very worried about the next generation at this moment in terms of when it comes to jobs, careers. and progression. I don't think we fully understand exactly just how much is weighing on them. And with, I think, economic crises in our future, AI and other things that may happen on the political landscape, I think jobs are going to be hard to come by. And I think a lot of young people don't show that hunger, that hungry eye, that eagerness, that I'll be right there. I'll be there tomorrow first thing. Thank you, email, follow up, like that kind of on point. You've got to be after it and going after it. I don't think they're feeling it. Gatti, I really don't. And I think as you and I start continuing with our work, I think there's a whole different set of challenges to take on when it comes to talking to young people about finding their sweet spot. And that also carries over, just like know your value carries over to real life and getting value back in all relationships. I think this carries over to their personal connections as well. I think that taking risks, which was your question, I'm sure you're like, "Mika, your answer is completely out of this world." You asked about taking risks. And I think they're very risk averse at this point for a lot of reasons. And we need to inspire them to find that fire back again. Mika, one of the risks, of course, that women find it particularly hard to do. And that's where we started this conversation and where you started know your value is ask for that promotion or ask for that pay raise. 60% of women say they've never asked for a pay raise. Fewer entry-level women express the desire to be promoted than men. In my research, when we do ask for pay raises, which is less often than men, we ask for less money. On general and men do, men seem to start their very first job negotiation by asking for a raise. We don't. That sets us back right from the beginning. Yes. So based on your experience and all of the work you've done, talk about pay raises and what's the right way and what's the wrong way to go about this tricky subject that we find so excruciating. So the wrong way would be to apologize your way into the conversation and to apologize for asking for the raise, which I literally have done. I apologize. And then I ask for the raise. Okay. We're going to roleplay this one. You're going to come in and ask. Okay. Okay. Oh, my God. I've got a meeting with Mika on the books. I don't know what she wants. Mika, come on in. Let's see what you're after. Hi. Hi. I'm so sorry. So I just, I know it's like we're, I know everyone's cutting and all the shows are cutting. And I still was hoping I'm so sorry. But I was hoping that we could talk about raising my pay. I just, I have a lot of this. You know, this is not a great time, Mika. I mean, we just don't have much money in the budgets. You know that. I am so sorry. You're right. I mean, I thought you, I thought you did this because you liked the job. I mean, I really, I'm a little disappointed. I love the job so much. I'm so sorry. Okay. So that went really well. That went really well. That happened. All right. I also, oh, this is a bad one. I kind of did this a little bit in the first one, but you never bring your issues into it. So the second one was, um, listen, I had no idea how much this job would cost me, um, from like the clothes to the makeup to hair and I've got to take care of my mom and my dog. And I've just got a lot of expenses. And it like, I can't do the math here. And I just, you know, I've got a lot of pressure on me and I swear I did that too. You sounded kind of whiny. I mean, Mika, you know, these are not really my problems. Exactly. They're not. I'm so sorry. So you can have the apology and the issue. Okay. So. And then, all right. Uh, then I tried to be like Joe. And I was like, Phil, like the guys, like, go and like, I was like, Phil, this is f***ing over. Okay. I need you to deal with this. I am a part of the show. And it's time for me to get f***ing raised. And I poked his chest. And he was like, and he poked it back. And he was like, wow, and we were like, never mind. This didn't work. But like, acting like the guys doesn't work. The fbombs only work if you're an fbombs kind of person. Um, you got to believe that. But I mean, seriously, don't go in there angry. Like angry, angry is no good. Or trying to be somebody else. I mean, I don't think you can't be confident when you're taking on somebody else's suit of armor. It just, I mean, it makes sense. So here's what worked. Um, but I also say, don't try this at home. I'm going to show you what worked. But then I think what most should do. So what worked for me was this show is amazing. And while the show is called Morning Joe, there is no morning Joe without morning meeket. And Phil, you, um, you've kind of become like a bad boyfriend. You know what that is? That's a guy that you live with. You do his laundry. You make his dinner. Now, Phil and I have a relationship at this point. We've learned to laugh at things. Um, and you think he's going to marry you. And he never marries you. It never happens. Why? Why would he marry you? He's got everything for free. So you need to marry me. Or this show is over. You got no morning meeket and good luck tomorrow. And I was dead serious. And I said it without a smile on my face. But there was a tinge of humor to it. But there was a complete sense of resoluteness. I was ready to walk. Phil knew it. And I said, and you need to understand there is no morning Joe without morning meeket. And the first person who would tell you that is Joe or Willie. But I'm going to tell you that because you're not going to see me tomorrow morning. And I was ready to walk. And that was when things changed. What about if you're not ready to walk? What if you're not ready to walk? Then you shouldn't do that. And that's really important. You have to be ready to walk. You have to have another option. In my case, I was ready to be unemployed again and deal with that. Then continue feeling undervalued and slowly letting that anger build. And then it would impact my performance on television. And then ultimately I would end up hurting myself. I would end up doing to myself what I was accusing them of doing and not being valued. And so I thought I needed to walk. And rather than watch this slow demise of my on camera presence. What's your advice to a woman whose 27 has been doing a good job once to ask for a pay raise doesn't want to leave the job doesn't have an ultimatum there isn't prepared to quit but still feel she's not being valued at 27. You don't know who you are. You don't know your value. You don't have enough to say where you could have that connection like I had with Phil where we had you know two years of back and forth about this. So he knew I was serious and it came from a very authentic self-knowledge kind of place. 27 you're still building. At 27, you're going to face a lot of nose to get to yes. So you need to go in there knowing it might be a no. And you still got to go in there and do it. You've got to do it because you've got to practice your skill of communicating effectively. And so you need to say I've been at this company for this long. And here's the work I've accomplished. A B C D E F and G and also H I J K. And I know that it is a proper time for my salary to increase. And this is what I'm looking for. I'm really hoping that we can come to an agreement here. You make it flat, no, right from the get go. And then you go back three months later or so years later. You go back. You don't give up. You don't have to do the death rattles that I did. You know, you don't have to do these horrible ridiculous extremes. It is basic. It's the same thing every time. You just add on a little more. So if it was H I J K, you can do LM and OP. You can say, you know, three months ago I had done a through K. And now we're at LM and OP. I've really earned this. I'm really at a level of a senior, whatever here. And I've got this title. I think my title needs to change. How can we solve this problem? You know, and I love it here. I'm inspired to be here. I love every day that I come to work and my work is top notch because my passion meets the actual work that I'm doing. But it has to match my value that I'm getting back. And right now we're not on a good path. So I want to fix this problem before we have a really big one. And then you go back. And if you do not get results, you look for another job. But at 27, you don't want to be acting like you're 45 and you've conquered the world and you expect, you know, private jets along with, you know, I don't know what. And you've got to like look at where you are and what is reasonable. Look at the economy. Look at your ability to get another job as a competing factor. If you can, that's obvious. Obviously, if you can get another offer that changes the game and you go in and you leverage that. And you know what? I have met women who have done that, who've gotten another offer and feel guilty about it. And I'm like, oh my god, you have just become double your value. You are going to make so much money. And they're like, yeah, but I feel guilty. It's going to look like I went by and they're like, am I getting me? What do you think men do all the time? And like when they're fired, they don't do what I did, which was a way in crying the moment. And then for months after and then walk around with them, I'm fired. I'm in my forehead. They're like, what? Oh my god. Get ready to bleep. You. I'm going to leave this place and I'm going to go build this one over here and join that one over there. And we're going to burn your place down. Good luck, mother. So please bleep, but you get it. Like their attitudes about themselves, it's your loss. Our attitudes about ourselves when things don't go well is it's all my fault. And this is all my fault. And by the way, if you don't get that pay raise the first time, you've put it on notice that you want the pay raise. And next time when they're doing the budgets, they know that they can expect you to come back. So in fact, you might think that it's a terrible disaster if they say no. It's just the first step in the whole negotiating process. Mika, we've got some questions that have come in. I love this. We're going to take and I can't wait to hear answers. Evie has asked us. A senior colleague often presents ideas we developed together as if they were solely his. How do I assert my contribution without causing tension or coming across as petty? Oh my god. I'm really hated when people do that. So a senior person is taking credit for work. And yes, exactly. Evie has a senior colleague who's taking credit for her ideas. How often does that happen all the time? Like all the time. But it is, is this something she can talk to him about that? Maybe can they team up and support each other? Is this something you have to like announce in the room? I mean, you're going to have to you're going to have to look at the dynamics of the situation and fix it and immediately. Do not let this fester. If this has gone on for more than a week, you're part of the problem. This has to be nipped in the bud. When it happens, if someone tries to take credit for your work, you have got to get your name on it and under no circumstances allow it to continue. So I don't know if it's a conversation she needs to have with that person and that person. You don't know what's going on in people's lives and you don't know what's going on in their minds. That person literally might be really happy to hear from you about that and go, oh my god, I am so sorry. And become your best supporter, like realized what they've done. People are busy. They don't often say, I need to think about every person in the room. And I think women, it is very easy to get insulted and to walk around with that feeling for a long time and to talk to other people about it. Oh no, you talk to the person that you're having an issue with only and you never talk to anyone else about it and you establish trust. Okay. If you go to someone else about it first and then that person hears about it around the edges. You look like a whiner. Yeah. No, that is not a value proposition. I don't know exactly what the situation is here, but I'm all about building trust by having direct confrontation about problems and direct connection about how to fix them. Okay, Fatima is asking, after maternity leave, I feel like I've been sidelined. I'm on fewer projects and have less visibility. How can I advocate for myself without sounding like I'm complaining? Oh, easy. I'm back from returning to leave and I just want you all to know. I really appreciate how much you guys are being so sensitive to the fact that I've just had a baby. I promise you, I want to work late. I'm good. I'm good. I'm good. I'm good. And I'm here and I'm available. So project A, B and C, I have so many ideas. How can I be involved? And just please remember that I am so interested in being a huge part of this team, just like everybody else. I so appreciate your sensitivities, but I'm doing great. And I'm actually, I find that the work is so fulfilling, it makes me a better mom. So let's go. So again, you're flipping the script. Easy. You're actually pointing out exactly what they're doing and calling them out in the best way. But in a way that sounds nice. Okay, Mika, before I let you go, I'd like you to give one piece of advice that people should take away from this conversation. From the work that you've done, all that you've written, all that you've done for women and their careers, what is something that you really want to leave people with? Well, it's the biggest thing I've ever learned and it happened in the past few years. And I actually thought there was, I thought I was at a place where there was nothing more to learn. And I could not have been more wrong. And the biggest message I can give all women, especially young women, but all women is that it's a long runway. Our lives have a very long runway to achieve our dreams, to reach our goals, to make new goals, to pivot, to reinvent, to go through divorce if necessary, to have that family, maybe find that elusive relationship that you've always been looking for, or that elusive family that you've always dreamed about. We have such a long runway, a runway that I don't think Katty you and I ever thought we had. I think you and I grew up in an age where there was always a clock ticking and there was a sense of urgency to everything we were doing that kept us from being completely present and enjoying the moment or feeling the pain of the mistake or feeling the joy of the moment. Like we had to just keep going, run out that clock. There's no clock anymore. You can do anything anytime you want. And it's best if you slow down, take that time off, take an off ramp for a long time, enjoy yourself, really connect with people instead of trying to check things off in your life. That runway has been paved by so many women who have pushed through that alarm clock and opened really the space for us to dream for a long time. You can dream about your life beyond 50, beyond 60, beyond 70, beyond 80. You can have dreams that last a lot longer than when I was growing up. That exist in your mind. In my generation over 50 was white space. It looked scary. It looked empty. It's now so full. There's not enough time for everything. And that is a sea change for these next generations. So while I think younger generations of women have a lot of struggles and a lot of challenges and we should talk about that at some point, they have a much longer runway. And I just think it's really important to enjoy the ride. I love that. I love that, Mika. And I've always thought about that. Since you came up with that phrase, I've used it so many times. You have a long runway. You don't need to rush. Take your time. And you can keep going. Mika Brzynski as ever, my friend. Thank you so much for everything you've done for all of us. Thank you. I hope you've enjoyed the conversation. If you would like to get in touch with your questions and dilemmas, do email us doing it anyway at gallhanger.com. I'd love to hear from you. And I'll see you next week.