The Secret Business of F1 ft. Guenther Steiner | Ep. 080 Lemonade Stand 🍋

I'm Ida Garten, and each week on Happy Hour, I invite new and old friends for a drink and a fun conversation at my kitchen table in New York City. On this week's episode, I'm joined by Jennifer Garner. We talk all about what it means to be a good friend, Jen's encyclopedic knowledge of my recipes, and the Paris tour I put together for Jen and her daughter. New episodes of Happy Hour are available every Wednesday. You can watch on YouTube or listen wherever you get your podcasts. Cheers. Megan Rapinoe here. This week on Why Are You Like This, I am talking with New York Times bestselling author and meditator Young Pueblo. We talk about moving from Ecuador to Boston as a young child, pulling himself up from rock bottom, and how meditation changed his life. I get a lot of questions about that. I get a lot of questions on the state of the wellness industry, and he decides if he's more mommy, daddy, or baby. Check out the latest episode of Why Are You Like This wherever you get your podcasts and on YouTube. Welcome back to Lemonade Stand, everybody. This week, we have a very exciting guest, Gunther Steiner. Thank you for joining us. You are the current CEO and owner of a MotoGP team, and also the former team principal of Haas F1, and we're really excited to talk to you this week. We want to ask you a bunch of questions, I think, mainly about Drive to Survive to start us off. I think a lot of people watching this episode will recognize you from that, but then just understand the landscape and business behind F1 racing in general, and your impressive tenure of starting the Haas F1 team, uh, owning your own businesses, like throughout this process, uh, I, I, I feel like there's so many, even before we started recording, there was like five. I know, we started asking about it. We had to tell our guests to shut up because he was telling us things that were too good for the show. It would save it for the pod, man. No, I want to say early on, I, of this three, are probably the least experienced and knowledgeable on racing, and I just think your life story, from what I've learned, is very fascinating, and I want to kind of dive into that, and also just negotiating with billionaires and the weird lifestyle that this, this sport creates, so. So thank you so much for joining us, Gunther. Now, thanks for having me. I just want to collect one. I'm colon of the MotoGP team. I don't want to claim something which is, which it isn't, you know, because, uh, so no, thanks for having me. And, uh, uh, you know, we're excited to be here, you know, and hopefully I can give you some answers, some explanations. I don't know what we can do, but, uh, let's try. Okay. So I, I thought it was really funny when you came in, we have this little entryway in our studio, and when me and Doug were sitting here and we heard your voice from the other room, Doug was like, that's the voice. And I was like, yeah, I was so excited. Because you're a very iconic figure in, and for those who don't understand, uh, drive to survive was this Netflix series that came out in 2019. And I would say had an immense effect on the popularity of F1, the sport, especially in the U S and I think it combined with COVID at a time that sort of supercharged F1, the revenue explodes over the following years. And you're one of the faces, especially of the initial season of the show. So I'm, I think I want to start since most people, uh, if they're not familiar with the sport would recognize you from that. Uh, how did your, how did Haas change? How did the sport change? How did your life change when those things took off? Well, it's a lot of questions. Let's start with, uh, how the sport changed. The sport changed. I mean, I I'm in formula one quite a long time. I was there a few times and then I went out, got back into it. But the, the big change was when Liberty media, both, uh, uh, uh, both F1. F1 was always very good. Uh, I mean, Bernie Ecclestone, the former, uh, uh, owner, and then he sold it to an investment fund and then investment funds sold it to Liberty, uh, Liberty media. But Bernie was always running it until Liberty came and Bernie was doing a good job. But I think, uh, you know, at some stage in life, I always think we get to a place where we feel very comfortable and we actually stop pushing forward, you know? And I think when you're yourself, it's very difficult to notice that. And, and for Bernie, life was perfect. He, he, he, he, he got to be a billionaire, you know, everybody wanted to buy the TV rights or, or, or, or formula one. Everybody was queuing up at his place and he couldn't see that actually what he had in his hand could be a lot more than what it was already. It was big and he did a fantastic job to, to make it the sport, what it is now. And then Liberty came in and Liberty media obviously doesn't go and spend the billions of, of dollars to buy this business. If they don't see that they can make a bigger, they had a plan. I mean, they are not going to buy it and now we continue to do the same, but they knew what, uh, the, the new generation wanted or what is possible to do, how to, uh, grab more of the audience, how to open, uh, F1 to the F1 market in the United States, you know, because Bernie always was hesitant with the United States because, you know, the United States, I live here 20 years, so I know how it works here. It just works if everybody makes money. If somebody, if somebody is losing money, it's not a good thing. It's not going to work. But in the end it's, it's, it works in business. That's what it has to be. I mean, you cannot have somebody, you know, just a government paying because they want to pay. No, that doesn't work forever. It, there needs to be, uh, at the bottom end, there needs to be a black figure, not a red one, you know? And, and I think, uh, Bernie never got, got that one across how to make this happen in the States. Liberty media, obviously knowing the American market, knowing sports marketing, had an idea how to do it. And social media, and all the things you said before, drive to survive. I think that was a plan there. But if you, if we would ask them now, uh, uh, uh, Sean Bratches and, uh, Chase Carey, the CEO and the CMO at the time, did you really think this, this, this show will have the effect it had? I think they would say, we hoped, but did we expect this one? Maybe not. Because, and as you rightly said, COVID was a big element to make the sport bigger in the States. Yeah. Because we were all sitting at home. I always say, we all watched Tiger King. We remember all the stupid show. And then all of a sudden, drive to survive comes along, you know? Yeah. And we all had nothing to do at home because it was unfortunate. And then Formula One, under the leadership of, of, of Chase Carey, did a fantastic thing. And the FIA, Jean-Claude, the president of the FIA at the time, got all the teams together and said, guys, we need to go back on the road here with this show because otherwise we run out of money. Because if F1 doesn't race. There's no income. Wait, when did they say this? After the show or before the show? No, the show was already running. The show had nothing to do with it. Okay. That was in 2020 when we had to stop racing because COVID came along. Oh, I see, I see, I see. COVID came along. But, and then because F1 got, was, I think, was the first global sport to go live again. People remembered that from the show. And now this race has to go again. We were all sitting at home. We had watched Tiger King. We had watched Drive to Survive, you know? And now. The racing is coming back. The first, actually something new because there was nothing new. Right. We all forget in 2020 because we couldn't work. Nobody could make a new show. Nobody could make a movie or nothing because we couldn't work. No show, no sport was live. F1 come in and goes live. Guess what? Everybody, even if they were not interested in, they watched F1 because there was nothing else new. They just needed something. Yeah, exactly. They just needed something for the brain, you know? So if COVID was this huge element in the success, plus Liberty Media, do you feel like, so. You know, to the American perspective, probably a ton of American fans of F1 know it because of that show entirely. Do you feel like from the inside that show didn't really change it that much? It was these other factors? Or from your perspective, was it like this has suddenly changed what we're doing? No, no, the show for sure helped because it showed what F1 actually is. You know, it is more than racing cars because there's a lot of racing cars in the world, you know? But why is F1 the biggest motorsport? Because technology. the politics, I would say the bullshit which goes with it. People like that stuff, the glamour, all that stuff, and people like that. But before, it was always just seen from outside in because the people before Liberty, which owned it, they never gave access to the other stuff. It was all behind closed doors. This is what we do at home. We don't show this to people because nobody thought anybody would be interested in or this much interested in. Everybody was worried it would attract criticism if it was shown what's going on behind the scene. Well, I do kind of wonder, there's aspects of narrative television like this that a version of you is displayed through that show by the nature of how it's cut, right? And also by the nature of that, there are things that are excluded. So I was wondering if you had anything to say about that. The way that you or the team was portrayed in that show versus what things didn't get shown that you wish people had seen. Because I think that's a pain point in sort of the influencer world as well, is narratives online about people get very warped. So I'm curious how you dealt with that. I never watched the show. I never watched the show, and I'm not going to watch it. And I. I could tell you also the story when I came up with not watching it. There is two things in that. that one first of all uh the easy one uh you know i hate to watch myself on tv or listen to myself you know it's something i do not like you know it it gives me the you know yeah exactly i don't like it so uh because i think uh if you're an actor and i was told not even some actors don't watch themselves because if you watch yourself and you see something you don't like what what i would try to do is next time to actually act you know to make that go away and then it becomes actually a job to be filmed and i didn't want any job to be filmed because i'm not an actor you know i don't have to do this this was not my job so that was one element and the second one why i didn't watch it was when it came out the first uh series they had a private uh screening of obviously not the whole show for all at an f before an f1 commission meeting on on an evening in london and the next day was the f1 commission meeting i didn't go to the screening because i just flew in from the states and went straight in the morning to the f1 commission meeting that was at the time the show was not public at the time that was a private screening i walk into this room with the there is the 10 team principle principle at the time it was 10 now it's 11 obviously uh the fia president and the ceo of uh f1 liberty media i walk in there and everybody was like yeah have you seen what you're doing and you know and and i i felt not you know it's like i don't want to be here you know because everybody yeah everybody talks about you you were the center of attention center of attention everybody and and at the time nobody was sure this show was actually going to be good you know so people you know how people is they rather think there's you have got normally more naysayers than yesayers you know so that was in there and they said have you seen this have you seen that in the show and uh for me it was like i don't know what you're talking about because i haven't seen it were you worried though that this is going to come out to a million because the thing is like i i knew what you were talking about because i was there when they filmed it yeah i said some things i i'm dumb but not this dumb you know but i could play ignorant you know i haven't seen it i don't know what you're talking about because i didn't everybody wanted to say do you think this is right or this is wrong you know because obviously they showed me in full action when i'm you know at 10 000 rpm you know so i was like whoa and and everybody was i think everybody was just worried that the show will be uh not good will not the reception will be good and i didn't want to discuss with people or do you think it's good it's bad i i don't really care and that was in the opinion it's too late anyway now i'm the loser i'm a loser or winner i'm nothing in between you're not finding your way into the netflix editing room it was done and and the other thing was like i was thinking wow did they really because i had no idea what was in there you know but when they told me the things i was like wow did they really that was thinking of my wife you know if she sees that she will go anyway wait has she has she seen it no we never you never watched it wow she watched it but we don't speak okay we don't speak about it at home you know it's just something we do not talk about i feel like anyone listening to the show that had listening to our show right now that hasn't seen the show is imagining you doing terrible things it's not that crazy no no it's not it's not that bad but but at the time because you guys you're young yeah and you started maybe watch it for one with this show but before this if it does not the whole government this was a no-no you know you couldn't do this you know and and that was the biggest thing the the guys which saw it everybody was like uh uh you know or should we support it or should we go against it because nobody knew what the public will think of the uh of it right so i imagine the opinion uh changed pretty quickly when the success was evident like after covid the first few seasons are out it's it's clear that this has a huge impact i don't know if it's a huge impact i don't know if it's a huge impact i don't imagine the support changes dramatically it's worth giving context to our viewers the show is massively successful and gunther you were not to spoil it for you but i think one of the main characters really like the main people who are featured and brought all this attention to teams that otherwise might not have been and so i think that was like a fascinating element yeah no no yeah and and we have also say the first the the first year is the first year mercedes and ferrari didn't participate they did they said no guess what the second year they couldn't wait not gonna show us you know because they didn't want to take the risk the first year that the show is a flop you know and which again shows that sometimes in life you have to take a risk and they asked me did you agree i said yeah we had nothing to lose i didn't even because we were the smallest team right we were i mean we were not second last but we were second last basically you know and it's like what can we lose if they don't show us we don't lose out about it you know so we just gave uh gave access so i actually want to follow that point you guys being the smallest team having this staff of like 200 to 300 ish people at a time when the biggest teams have staffs exceeding a thousand people and notably having a smaller budget than like the older more tenured teams in the sport how do you manage to compete in a sport that is so unbalanced like how do you approach that as the principal yeah you're right at the time it was very unbalanced because there was no budget cup the budget cup came in 2023 and it got more balanced not that it made it any easier but at least there was some balance back but at the time when i started the team for me it was like it was a i need to go back a little bit in 2009 financial crisis we all know you know big manufacturers left f1 and new teams started up there was uh four new teams starting up one didn't make it to the start usf1 the other team started but they were dead last they were laps away uh on a race you know they and and i just looked at them and i was like if i just do more of the same or try to do the same as them guess what i will fail like they the same exactly because i'm not more or we i'm not and my i'm not more intelligent than these people because they were good people and for sure we have no money because we had less money so so so you need to find a way uh uh or at least try to find a way to do it differently and i i i know a lot of people i've got a lot of friends in f1 and i had the idea to to i mean i i knew the regulation pretty well i know every gray area for regulation and at the time you actually could buy a lot of stuff from an existing team and that was my idea i and stefano dominicali now the ceo of formula one he's a good friend of mine since 25 years here at the time was the team principal ferrari so i went to see stefano and said hey stefano if i find investment money from somebody would you help me with that and i said yeah i would help you with that and i said yeah i would help me to put this team together by if i buy not only the engine from you but as much as the regulations allow you know which is suspension electronics hydraulics except the chassis and the aerodynamics you have to do yourself okay because that saves you a lot of money a lot of time and you have got some aspect of safety because if you develop something yourself even a suspension f1 you see like cadillac in the moment they have suspension failures they have brake failures because they try to do it themselves it and it and i wouldn't say that doing a bad job but f1 is so sophisticated and so difficult technology wise that if you try to do something like this yourself you spend a lot of money just to be as good as the as the worst team right you know so you spend billions uh in in money and years of development just to have the same it's not even be better it's like so why would i do that and you know you need to find your way around and that was the idea behind not uh not to fail and that is also i think the reason why has f1 is still around because if we would have done it like all the other ones we would have gone away after three years because what happens if you're not successful these people which invest in it either they run out of money or they run out of enthusiasm to finish last right so and you know already prediction so you need to do something different and and that was the difference so how do you if i mean first off i'm curious if you're going to ferrari and saying let us buy a whole bunch of your parts so that we can build up this team and why are they going to agree to basically you know send parts and experience to a competitor uh first of all uh it's money they make it i don't think they make a lot of money but also like running their engine they get more data they can do something with it secondly it's good for the league you know if you have got another good team because the league if it has got only three good teams and the rest bad story that's not good you know so that helps the league if it helps the ferrari obviously ferrari keeps you under check that you don't beat them you know so i mean they've got you under control as well is it ever like are they are they giving you slightly worse parts or is there any kind of like threat on their side of making sure you never get the very very best or how does no no no no not anymore that was in the old days but oh yeah it happened yeah but our our first business plan was to have the one year old ferrari stuff but that we changed pretty this was actually a very good question because we changed that pretty quick because in the end it wouldn't make sense you'd go into a race knowing that you will be behind a second to one and a half slower and you can never catch up and it also doesn't make sense for ferrari because they need to make parts because all these composite parts you know they are very difficult so they need to keep two different set of molds and processes and everything so it's not even a money saving it just makes it more complicated for everyone with no real gain for anybody and it's not even cheaper because making F1 parts older, new, they're still. stupid expensive you know so it's weirdly expensive for ferrari to try to keep you guys behind them they may as well just save money exactly and give you guys the most recent version correct i get a follow-up question from that because so as not an expert people that watch the sport more tell me that engineering is more than half of the ratio that makes up victory like that the driver is part of it the team is part of it but the engineering is a huge part of it so if you are only buying parts what parts are you controlling to make your team different or stand out like what what is on your mind then how is it driver selection is it what what okay aerodynamics aerodynamics because you have to do your own one you cannot buy them from ferrari or from another team aerodynamics that you have to uh to develop yourself and i mean you know the chassis you have to make yourself which is uh you have to make sure that the uh that you're on the minimum weight uh of the car but but absolutely you're right the element in f1 is the engineering but the biggest element is aerodynamic development okay i think in the sport there's still so you mentioned the the cap that was put in place in 2021 and other sports you know whether it be the nfl or the nba they have restrictions on the way teams can spend money in order to kind of keep the sport more equitable right but in f1 if you look at the results over the last however many years it's pretty much still red bull mercedes ferrari like at the top of the standings and mclaren i guess uh i'm wondering since that is the case still and since there's still seemingly a disparity in like results performance do you think the sport needs to do something in order to make the playing field more even i i do not think and uh this is also explainable why why these four teams which you rightly said uh are uh ahead of teleones they did a better job uh for the nfl in terms of their performance and they did a better job uh for the nfl in terms of their performance and they did a better job uh for the nfl in terms of their performance first of all you know uh longevity in the sport counts a lot you've got your processes are better you get better people you know what the people want you know how to attract good people you've got a lot of experience in it doing it but what these teams did they always invested in the team because and to be more efficient because in the budget cup what it comes out to how do i do more with less it's like it's more like running a very efficient company and making profit you know if you don't have a good team you can't do a good job you know you can't do a good job you know you can't do a good job you know you can't do a good job you know if you do that one well uh you have if you do that one well uh you have success why why not everybody can make iphones because apple success why why not everybody can make iphones because apple and samsung know know how to do it and samsung know know how to do it and samsung know know how to do it pretty well you know try to get there pretty well you know try to get there pretty well you know try to get there you know uh uh so and it's the same in f1 you know uh uh so and it's the same in f1 you know uh uh so and it's the same in f1 these teams they invested over years and these teams they invested over years and these teams they invested over years and years in their facility years in their facility years in their facility in their infrastructure they've got the in their infrastructure they've got the in their infrastructure they've got the best wind tunnel and under a budget cap best wind tunnel and under a budget cap best wind tunnel and under a budget cap you can just invest every year a certain you can just invest every year a certain you can just invest every year a certain amount obviously the big ones they amount obviously the big ones they amount obviously the big ones they started off started off started off a little bit in advance yeah but but a little bit in advance yeah but but a little bit in advance yeah but but nobody uh nobody of the smaller teams nobody uh nobody of the smaller teams nobody uh nobody of the smaller teams try to catch up because sometimes you try to catch up because sometimes you try to catch up because sometimes you need to take a step back to make two need to take a step back to make two need to take a step back to make two forward you know but in sport you never forward you know but in sport you never forward you know but in sport you never do that because you want to have the do that because you want to have the do that because you want to have the success tomorrow you know it's very success tomorrow you know it's very success tomorrow you know it's very difficult uh to achieve all that and difficult uh to achieve all that and difficult uh to achieve all that and therefore it always will be there but therefore it always will be there but therefore it always will be there but coming to your question uh do do the coming to your question uh do do the coming to your question uh do do the league need to do something about it league need to do something about it league need to do something about it i don't think so and even if they do i don't think so and even if they do i don't think so and even if they do something about it it will be very something about it it will be very something about it it will be very difficult to achieve difficult to achieve difficult to achieve because but why because the smaller because but why because the smaller because but why because the smaller themes because you couldn't say the themes because you couldn't say the themes because you couldn't say the bigger themes now need to spend less bigger themes now need to spend less bigger themes now need to spend less less there is already something in it less there is already something in it less there is already something in it because if you are the because if you are the because if you are the number one you've got less wind tunnel number one you've got less wind tunnel number one you've got less wind tunnel time than the last one you know there is time than the last one you know there is time than the last one you know there is a percentage i think a percentage i think a percentage i think i i i don't remember the the number but i i i don't remember the the number but i i i don't remember the the number but as as the as the leading f1 team you've as as the as the leading f1 team you've as as the as the leading f1 team you've got at least 20 got at least 20 got at least 20 less wind tunnel time than the last uh less wind tunnel time than the last uh less wind tunnel time than the last uh who is last so they've got an advantage who is last so they've got an advantage who is last so they've got an advantage to catch up but they never can do it so to catch up but they never can do it so to catch up but they never can do it so but what you would need to do if you say but what you would need to do if you say to the last team you can spend more to the last team you can spend more to the last team you can spend more money to catch up money to catch up money to catch up they won't do it no they cannot get the they won't do it no they cannot get the they won't do it no they cannot get the money money money it's simpler than that you know they it's simpler than that you know they it's simpler than that you know they cannot get the money because they're cannot get the money because they're cannot get the money because they're last so who will give the money who last so who will give the money who last so who will give the money who would sponsor them to get up there so would sponsor them to get up there so would sponsor them to get up there so what you would need to do you uh you what you would need to do you uh you would need to allow the big teams to would need to allow the big teams to would need to allow the big teams to spend less but that would be so awkward spend less but that would be so awkward spend less but that would be so awkward to do you you know to do you you know to do you you know it's like and i'm a big believer i mean it's like and i'm a big believer i mean it's like and i'm a big believer i mean balance of performance you know about balance of performance you know about balance of performance you know about that one in motorsport in like in uh that one in motorsport in like in uh that one in motorsport in like in uh world endurance championship they have world endurance championship they have world endurance championship they have balance of performance weight and balance of performance weight and balance of performance weight and horsepower horsepower horsepower you don't want to bring that into f1 you don't want to bring that into f1 you don't want to bring that into f1 because then you kill the sport and that because then you kill the sport and that because then you kill the sport and that would be a little bit of a balance of would be a little bit of a balance of would be a little bit of a balance of performance not on the performance not on the performance not on the car side but on the infrastructure side car side but on the infrastructure side car side but on the infrastructure side and i don't think this formula one and i don't think this formula one and i don't think this formula one it would be good for formula one to do it would be good for formula one to do it would be good for formula one to do that so from your answer because i know that so from your answer because i know that so from your answer because i know that the constructor standings of f1 pay that the constructor standings of f1 pay that the constructor standings of f1 pay out prize money proportional to out prize money proportional to out prize money proportional to placement right and then you have things placement right and then you have things placement right and then you have things like uh payments made to the older like uh payments made to the older like uh payments made to the older teams like ferrari as sort of a a tenure teams like ferrari as sort of a a tenure teams like ferrari as sort of a a tenure payment for being in the sport for so payment for being in the sport for so payment for being in the sport for so long but are you kind of saying like long but are you kind of saying like long but are you kind of saying like this disparity in like earnings this disparity in like earnings this disparity in like earnings even if the lower teams were like even if the lower teams were like even if the lower teams were like supported more financially supported more financially supported more financially it it just wouldn't make up this gap it it just wouldn't make up this gap it it just wouldn't make up this gap or it would fracture the competitive or it would fracture the competitive or it would fracture the competitive integrity of the sport integrity of the sport integrity of the sport i can give you a good answer there that i can give you a good answer there that i can give you a good answer there that would incentivize some people if you would incentivize some people if you would incentivize some people if you would say the last one gets more than the would say the last one gets more than the would say the last one gets more than the first one yeah then it's not a first one yeah then it's not a a meritocracy anymore. You know what would happen? You'd want to lose. Yeah, exactly. You want to come last. Then you're a start and park. If I come last, I get more money. So I keep on coming last. I guess I would probably say, I mean, this isn't my actual suggestion, but I would say like, oh, what if all of the, like the constructor didn't have an effect on like payouts and it was just the same amount of money was dispersed to every team. Equally, equally. They say equal payouts. I don't think that could completely fix the discrepancy about what the income is because the big teams have got anyway more income because of the sponsorship, because they're winning, you know? So it's very difficult to do. And I would say the governance in F1 is very good, you know, the system, you know, majority, super majority, how something is voted and you would never have the big teams because, you know, never ask Turkish to vote for Christmas, you know, the big teams would never vote for that. You know, so why would they, how could you convince them and even if you give them a contract? So, and I don't think, to be honest, I think part of F1, the story of F1 is because it is like it is, you know, and I mean, look at McLaren, four, three, four years ago, they were nowhere, you know, and then they came back and all of a sudden they won two world championships in constructors and this year they will not win the constructor, but they win races. So it is possible so I think if you're good, you can still do it. What to you, if you, so, you know, you're no longer running a Formula One team, but if you came in right now, first off, would that be interesting at all? I've heard that you've turned out offers to go back into Formula One, so I'm curious about why, but if you were, if you had another, you know, eight hours a day to do this, what would be the key priorities you would put out on one of these teams to say this is how we will do what McLaren did and get up? Coming in to run one or to set a new one up? Coming in to run one. But either, I mean, coming into, let's say, one of the lower teams. Okay. Or let's just say, yeah, a lower team. Like, what do you feel like this is a potential strategy to actually raise? First, me coming back in the moment, I mean, I need to sort my MotoGP team out first before I go back to Formula One, you know, so I've got some work to be done there. There's a whole other thing we'll get to with the MotoGP. And to come to podcasts, you know, otherwise, if I'm working at F1, I cannot come here. And this is the most important job in the world. This is the one that's hard. Absolutely. Absolutely. You can't skip this. No, if there would be a project, I would be open to come in. But just to go in and run a team, I'm done with that. You know, I'm over 60 years old, you know, got my T-shirt, you know, was there, got my T-shirt and moved on, you know. So, but I would be interested if there is a project and the project would be that you explain somebody how you would do it. And not because always people say, talk about time and some people find time just as I do this for three years, make good money, and then I'm gone anyway. No, really making a plan to say, I need three, five years and to put proper milestones in what you want to achieve and work on it. But say, be patient because a lot in F1 is this expectation and expectation, they all think, oh, I'm smarter than anybody else, I come in and do it. I mean, we see it now again with Cadillac. They came in, obviously they were very humble, but they didn't expect to be that last this badly. You know, I mean, this is bad. They got some big zeros on the scoreboard right now. Exactly. They were a little more confident. And there's no chance to come out. Yeah, exactly. They were a little bit, okay, we know all the challenges, we keep our, but when they got in there, it's like, wow, we are three, four seconds behind the leader. I mean, you cannot make that up. You cannot catch up when you are this far behind. You need to come in very humble, very strategic how you do things, not have the expectation, no fixed quickness. One of the things, just as an example, how to fix things is Aston Martin. They came in and they were, I mean, embarrassing, but they took one good decision, you know? I mean, I think, I take my hat off of them. They didn't try to fix it with small, oh, we put a new front wing on. If you are four seconds behind in Formula One, it's not going to cut it, you know? I mean, you need to be, I mean, and you know, oh, we have an upgrade. Yeah, that will not do. They went back and said, we do nothing for six months and then we make a new car, which is at the weight limit and all that stuff. Are they good yet? No, but I think they are, obviously, we have not to underestimate it, engine they got in it's it's it's not good but i i think that was the right strategy for them to catch up take a step back to make two forward and that's what you sometimes need to do another team which i think is doing it the approach is is good is audi i mean they got a big i mean they obviously bought sauber which was struggling the last years before they bought it but they bought it up to speed and then this year they were i would say unfortunate to have their own engine which is a big challenge as well if you do it the first year if they would have a ferrari engine this year they would be i think they would could run fifth easily you know so yeah and i think they do it very in the right way we have a target we want to get there and we need to do it step by step and that's what i would do just was a long answer to answer your question yeah that was good are you tired of hearing about business tech and finance from the bros we are the tiger sisters a top business podcast with the vox media podcast network tiger sisters releases every monday and we decode money power and love and who doesn't love all those things we are the internet's wall street and silicon valley big sisters tune in every monday for late night sister talk meets boardroom strategy check out tiger sisters on youtube spotify or wherever you get your podcasts welcome to the tiger fam hi it's phoebe judge host of criminal i'm going on tour if you like hearing me tell stories about people well i've decided to tell stories about my life and the people i love a letter was left carelessly around so i was sort of caught red-handed it's a show about secrets and forgiveness i hope you'll come to see it find all our tour dates and get tickets at this is criminal.com slash live i'm bridget reed and i'm james walsh the alexander brothers moved in a world of multi-million dollar homes exclusive parties and powerful people behind that glamorous lifestyle were years of rumors and allegations that they were committing sexual assault in our reporting for new york magazine we investigated what people knew and heard from women who came forward to tell their stories now that reporting is the basis for a new three-part docu-series the wolves of real estate the alexander brothers you'll see exactly how privilege protected them and how they were finally killed stream all three episodes now only on peacock can i can i ask a question from the question i said earlier about percentage of engineering versus like say driver what percentage of the victory do you think or success comes down to the driver this is i would want to know from an expert and then actually what i want to answer that first i would love to know uh i always put it like this and how much is the team principal specifically right or is wrong there's nothing in between you know all him or all nothing you know so if you're bad you get sucked anyway you know but uh i always say like this a driver the the worst driver and there's no real bad driver in f1 in the moment the worst driver in a good car can win he will not win the championship but he can win races the best driver in the worst car cannot win anything okay just to say how much the driver has to how much the car is important it's i i always say i think that the car and you know you say the team like changing the tires changing uh it's 80 and the driver the driver if you're in the top car makes a difference but you you know that for the the best drivers are always in the top four teams because there you make the difference but if they go below the top four teams if you put max verstappen in a i don't know in aston martin you just can't you can't do it i mean look at alonso he's one of the best drivers he cannot do because when i was doing some research on you it there was this thread that you had taken risks on some drivers you'd done some you'd pick some drivers for your teams that had not as much proven experience and i wanted to know what you look for in a driver what is what is your uh intuition on that what my intuition i mean i always must talk where we were i mean we're a new team yeah and uh i didn't want to be the driver to be the weakest element so i wanted experienced drivers because the team was inexperienced right to make up for that one and the driver can help you to make it because he has got experience he was in different places and the driver can motivate the team members you know that for always wanted uh experienced drivers if you're a young team and uh uh you know when i took rookies i had no other choice because i had no money one of these days where i had no money you know it was not the only day i think a criticism of drivers in f1 sometimes is this like nepotistic aspect in sport where there's people or or picks for drivers that feel like they haven't necessarily earned the position so i was wondering how common you feel like that is like how often are drivers getting picked on something other than merit and i think in the moment there is only one in there and and you know we're talking about landstall yeah i wasn't even gonna say it no but you can say it i mean but but i i don't think landstall is as bad as he's made out to be i think his attitude doesn't help him you know uh because uh he he portrays if you know he almost portrays i don't want to be here you know and therefore he get a lot of negative criticism if he would be upbeat and things because as a driver he's not bad you know as i said before there is no bad driver in the moment in formula one you know like in the old days sometimes somebody was in which brought big money and you know you know the the the guy is not at the level he should be but landstall i mean he's not a bad driver it's just like the attitude of him you know it gives the wrong impression but you know that's only him to solve that one okay so you don't feel like it's that common of a problem really no i i don't think but you're right that to go into car racing you need to start at a certain level of uh uh money it helps to have wealthy parents yeah it it's one of these things you cannot but it costs quite a lot of money but talent i mean there is people like uh esteban ocon he doesn't come from a wealthy background but he had talent and he was spotted and he got away into f1 and uh i think uh uh franco colapinto is not uh rich from parents wise and and he got in there you know there are some guys which got in there but for sure if you have got money it helps you to get in better because i think a lot of talents just don't make it there because they don't have enough financial support to get there and they are not they're really they are not spotted because of the talent of the personality from a scout of of one of the uh manufacturers and therefore they they never make it close to f3 or f2 i feel it's kind of the nature of the sport and the equipment required too right because i i've your kids don't grow up racing go-karts in the favelas of brazil like it's you you need to have somebody buy the equipment like all you know it needs to happen somehow yeah i i absolutely needs to happen somehow and i would say some kids go into go-karting because if you're if you have a father which is likes to to work as a mechanic you can afford a go-kart but as soon as you want to drive a car you know a formula regional or formula four whatever you need to have money cost is this gets to a theme that you've brought up a lot and i think was a recurring theme with with the team where you were trying to be extremely inefficient extremely efficient with money can you just break down if you're the team principal running a formula one team how much of your time and mental energy and maybe even the company's resources is just spent on how do we get the money to fund this thing versus how do we win races because it seems like a huge amount of the work is just keep this thing financially alive yeah and it's very difficult because you cannot just focus on getting the money because you have to bring results especially you have got a a a private owner you know which want to see short-term success and and and he has got the money to finance it so you must make him happy that he gives you more money so it is very difficult to do and uh you know but in the end at some stage in for example at us i focused on getting money because i could see that the owner was getting tired of putting money in and and with all due respect he should get tired of it because it needs to be run like a business you know it needs to be a business to be sustainable because you cannot have a business which every year needs millions of millions of of money invested in it we're so in was there ever a stage at which the f1 team was was profitable it was making it making a return not when i was there no no i mean the big teams are they are profitable pretty good now you know yeah and these numbers are not secret you know because they are public because they're all uh i mean mercedes uh they all make good money i mean ferrari you never know because it's in a big company but mercedes mclaren i mean mclaren zach brown is doing a great job to find money you know for the team with the success came the money at mclaren you know so but no i i would say half of the teams are profitable some more than the others so how do you make that pitch to gene haas at the time like because you you were in a way the the architect of that team coming into existence even though gene was the owner and like decided to get involved right you have to convince this guy who has the money to do it and he has to do it and he has to do it and he has to do it and has the money to invest in the sport. that this is a good idea? What did that look like? That's a difficult pitch because I never pitched it at being a profitable business. Yeah. I more pitched it if you want to do or to the people because I went to more than him to people to pitch this business plan when I wrote the business plan and the business plan for sure the first five years was not profitable, you know. And what the pitch was, I'm not telling you this is a business. If you want to do an F1 team, this is the way how to do it like we discussed in the beginning. At the time, yeah, exactly. This is, and obviously I got a lot of thanks but no thanks but Gina, yeah, because of that, you know, because after five years it's not like, hey, if everything goes right we maybe make money but we need to invest shitloads of money beforehand and at the time when I started Haas, the teams were worth as much as somebody wanted to pay for. At the time, Marussia was sold for one pound, English pound, you know, yeah, because it was worth nothing and now they're worth billions. So at the time you couldn't even say, hey, if you invest in this, you build equity and you can sell it in 10 years and you get your money back but that just happened. So I don't feel bad about that to have convinced Gene to invest because in the end if he sells the team now, yeah, exactly, he makes real money. It's a very good investment but at the time when I pitched it, that was not, I mean, if I would have known that I would have done it a different way. Yeah. It would be an easier pitch. So what did he say? When you go to him and you say, here's my five-year plan, maybe if we're lucky we become, profitable in five years, he says, yeah, what does he say? How does that conversation go? That conversation, it took him more than a half year to decide to do it or not to do it. You know, first of all, I think he wanted to see if what I told him is actually true, you know, to see if actually I'm deep enough to make this happen and then for him, the interest was his main business, Haas Automation, to give that business credibility and publicity. You know, that was, he didn't do it for charity, you know, towards the people. It's marketing, yeah. For him, it was a marketing tool. Therefore, it worked. It's the same for Red Bull. Red Bull, I don't know for how many years the team lost money, but it was very good for the can. This came up recently. I don't know, I don't know if you know this, the Lakers just sold for like this enormous price. I think it was like $12 billion. And with the news of this happening and the private equity group that backed that purchase, there's this sort of renewed scrutiny of sports teams being sold for larger and larger amounts of money to these groups rather than individuals, like passionate individuals that care about the sport that they're investing in, right? And how private equities incentives of like extracting the profit out of a team aren't necessarily aligned with winning and this larger conversation of like how money transforms sports. So was there any, is there kind of a worry of that in racing or F1 at all as these teams become more and more valuable? Like the integrity of the sport being sacrificed for these larger and larger entities that are going to be buying teams? I think you cannot avoid this because the money is just too big for individuals to buy it. I mean, as you said, the Lakers, $12 billion, you know, one individual, $12 billion. You know, there is people which have, I mean, which have $12 billion. There's a couple people. To small and small restaurants. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. You're actually, not many people, to pick from, but in the end, I think it's, I don't think the integrity will go away. I mean, they will be still run as sports teams and they will put the show on and people will watch it, you know, and I think the league, especially in F1, the league is not owned by the teams, so they will not have control over the league. The league is owned by a promoter, by Liberty Media. The authority which regulates the sport is the FIA, the Federation, the International, of the cars, you know, they regulate the sport, so I don't think that the owners or even these big entities can, you know, manipulate the sport. I mean, they want to be part of the sport, these entities, because the profit which can be made and we all know that the sports teams, the prices are rising and I don't think, and I think the biggest element there, element there, why the price goes up is scarcity. Well, so, with you, like you own this MotoGP team now and you're a co-owner with a capital group, right? Yeah. Do you feel like the, like you're obviously interested in racing because it's your passion, like this is your life's work from like when you used to work as a mechanic all the way to like what you do now. So, do you feel like that capital group's incentives are like aligned with your personal passion as an owner? I imagine, yeah. Yeah, they are interested in racing, obviously they want to see results, you know, and obviously they are also interested in making it work more. Yeah, yeah. You know, that is what they do for, and I think if you work together and you achieve it and I think it gets better and I always say, if you want to improve something, it's not only that whoever invests, individual or a group of people or an entity, the life will be better for all the people working in the sport. Because, you know, if there is more money, I mean, if you look back at Formula 1 40 years ago, you know, how people, they had to drive to races, you know, and all that stuff, now they fly, so most of the people fly in business class, you elevate everybody's lifestyle and you support a lot of people which have got a lot, there are, as you said, 1,000 people in an F1 team, 800 now, between 800 and 1,000. There's a lot of family which eat from this and if you can give work to them, it's nothing else than another business, but it's a business which entertains people, so there is nothing wrong with it. Whoever owns the team to make money, as long as, you know, everybody gets something of it, I mean, when you start a business, for me, starting a business always was very important, not only to make money, to give something to society, you know, you do something and you employ people, you make life better, we make the world a better place. That's interesting. Do you, so you feel like across the growth of the, let's take F1 specifically, the growth of this sport over the past 10 years, you feel like that growth is like pretty tangible to the average employee of these teams? Like they've seen their pay or quality of life go up during that same time period? Absolutely. Absolutely. You know, you could debate quality of life because now it's 24 races. Sure. But again, before, nobody cared about mental health of people. Let's go racing. You know, if somebody was left on the side that was it, now people actually invest in mental health because it's so intense what you have to do. You know, not all the same people go to all the races. You rotate them because you've got the money to do that. A very simplistic example, 10 years ago, mechanics shared a room in their hotel. Now, I mean, can you imagine to share a room when you're, I don't know, 40, 50, 50-year-old and you've got a family and you share a room for 200 days with somebody else? You'd never have privacy. It's crazy, yeah. And all the teams now give single rooms because it was not sustainable anymore. And that's just possible because the sport has grown. Obviously, everything comes at a price, you know? I mean, the sport has grown, everything comes at a price, but you always try to give back. You look after your people. Well, I want to talk about the change in your position from going from F1, which went through this giant period of growth, to now MotoGP, where you're owning a team, which is a smaller league that you're now trying to grow. And from an owner's POV, how are you thinking about that with the other owners? How are people talking in that league about how you change people's minds on MotoGP? And I will say, because I didn't know this, MotoGP is insane. It's people riding motorcycles that go up to 220 miles per hour to like a 65-degree angle turn. It is crazy. Just a side note, wild. Yeah, it's pretty wild, you know? I mean, I was in Mugello, and the Indy 500 was on at the same time, and these guys were going down the straight. I think it was about 10 miles per hour or less on a bike, you know? On a bike? 368. Just like no windshield? It's just direct to the chest? That's so insanely dangerous. That's crazy. 368 kph on a straight, and there is a bump on that straight, and the bike gets light, and you can see the front wheel lifting. Oh, my God. This is like a Shinkansen in Japan, but you just have no windshield, and you're on a bike. You're going that fast. And you're leaning a couple centimeters from the pavement. Yeah, but now you own a team in this league, and I'm wondering, especially because your own money is invested in it now. How do you plan on elevating the team or elevating the sport? I was there when Liberty Bolt F1, and that was such a good experience. You know, can it be replicated? I don't think so, because F1 will always be this massive sport, what it is. You know, but most of the time, MotoGP, the sport itself is so, I always loved it. I never had time to really follow it. I mean, I followed it a little bit, you know, when Valentino Rossi was there and all that stuff because I know him, but it's one of these things. I just love it, and when, I just had the idea, I went, in 24, I left Haas, and in March, no, May 24, in Austin, there was the race, and I said, I go to the race. I know a lot of people in MotoGP. I haven't been at the race 15 years. go there. On the way back, I was like, well, be cool to own a team here you know so i came i started to work you know how can i get a license i wanted a free license like with f1 team i was told you know two words they were not merry christmas basically you know and so i had to find a way to buy a team and i didn't have enough money so i had to find people with the money and i did it all but i think because i've seen it what happened in f1 something similar can be done because as you said the sport is amazing we just need to grab the audience to watch it more you know that they get interested a little bit we need an effect like f1 head with drive to survive you know all of a sudden everybody looks at it because as you rightly said if you if you look at these guys what they do on a bike it's it's insane i mean i i and when they go out these guys you look in their eyes you can see something something is not on here something is going on here in some way yes they are different i mean i can do this and for me the most amazing thing is because in moto gp you have got two bikes if you crash you can go back and take the second bike oh what in the same race in practice or qualified in the race you lose too much time but in the race if it starts to rain you come in the pits and you jump on the bike with the rain tires on which is what bikes are wow but they pull off the bike you know the first thing they want to go back on the bike so they they are not like you you would think so you know like i wait a moment let's get my things together of course no it doesn't it doesn't said oh okay yeah sure where's the bike you know and and and for me it was amazing because they fall off the bike they stand up you know in their overall they walk a little bit strange because it's you know and and they look they look around you know what they look where the scooter is to take them back to the garage so they can get back on the bike that's after falling off at 300 kilometers an hour exactly what's wrong with that one you're gonna have something in your brain missing for sure exactly so so that i mean it's quite amazing when you watch it but no well you were saying off camera you were saying that there's some challenges with trying to get some of the other owners to understand the importance of things like social media or getting getting the consumer audience interested in the sport and i was wondering if that's something that you're dealing with is that how does that work yeah no because we passed completely your question i mean about how you get the other owners involved in i mean that is the challenge because the sport is so good and that's what we're doing going racing i think where where a lot of things can be done better is by getting the sport to the people how you get something to the people it's social media i mean at this time you know that that is where we have to get to but some of the people they don't really have that interest to do that they just have the interest to go racing you know so you need to change the mindset the mindset needs to be changed it needs to be we still go racing like in f1 what liberty media was very good they never compromised the racing the racing they left we go racing but we built the surrounding for it that more people watch our great racing and that's a compliment to everyone and and that is what i try to tell other people we are not taking away from racing if we get more people to watch it it's even better it's better for the people because again we do the same as i said before we make life better for everyone in the sport you know it's it's so why should we not do it you know we need to think a little bit more outside of the sheer racing we need to think how can we market this thing better because it is a great sport i i want to hang on to that for a second because you seem to be pretty complimentary of f1 ownership of fia and from a fan perspective i feel like i've seen a lot of criticism over the years and one of the things i've seen is the introduction of certain courses like the vegas course uh over classic like more dynamic european courses and uh accusations of like sacrificing something about the sport in order to have this influx of american money through like a race like the vegas race so do you feel like you disagree with that sentiment is that like not an accurate reflection of of what's going on i disagree with two things okay what you just said i'm always very complimentary of the fia i'm not okay i'm sometimes because some of the things they do right some of the things they do wrong yeah and secondly vegas i mean let's start with vegas vegas was very much critiqued the first year when it when it was introduced it has created one of the most exciting races in formula one okay a lot of people say always oh uh you know all day like go to miami it's a great race but outside of the race you get everything you want you know it's miami you guys know miami you know that is what the people of miami want they don't want to go and watch a car race they want you know everything going on in in in the shortest time possible you know to get the boost so and the the hardcore race fans say all this stuff or they shouldn't be there i always say guys it's everybody's own choice what he wants to do but you have to choice if you don't want uh to go to a concert after the race you know what don't go but the race is still the race like it was 10 20 years ago have the race tracks changed yes but i mean again what i would completely be with you i i just came from madrid yesterday you know and the race in madrid was i mean the race the race in madrid was actually good organized everything they did a good job for the first year race but the racetrack is just like i mean wow they need to change something and they're all everybody quality or what like it's it's not what does that mean you cannot overtake oh it is a procession yeah it's a procession it's qualified yeah exactly yeah they they follow each like monte carlo but monte carlo is the same and nobody wants monte carlo to go away so but just because the history behind it right correct yeah but if you have 24 races you cannot have like i mean i love uh old race courses uh suzuka spa monza but if you have cookie cutter races 24 nobody will watch them you need to bring in the sprint race the sprint weekends you know when you've got the race on saturday the night race the city race all that if you have got i call it now 24 spas after 12 people don't watch it anymore you have to have because that people want to be entertained but then again on the entertainment of the day you can pick what you want to watch or not and now that i think there is a lot of people which actually are not really interested in the race they are interested in what is there the whole in the experience of the weekend for the people attending that week attending that weekend you know they go there because there is food stands there is music there is music there is music there is music there is i mean go to miami i mean you can do whatever you want you think you're in paradise huh you know because it's all it's all in this racetrack you know and and they raced really the bar miami on that one and a lot of other ones follow now because they have to because also it's the same like i said before with social media people consume more and faster 20 years ago going watch an f1 race if you had a f2 ray or at the time it was called gp2 race and gp3 race and f1 that was enough the people would go there today nobody would go if you have got only not nobody a very small amount of people a percentage of the people which go now would go if it would just be a car race do you think this is part of it sounds like broadening the appeal for a wider range audience which has allowed the sport to grow and okay yeah that makes sense that's the that's perfectly how you said that you know you know just to grow everything you know this is part of of the growth i'm curious with that like growth comparing it to some of the other sports so you've also worked in nascar um you've worked in formula one obviously moto gp there may be others that i'm blanking on rally too right rally yeah yeah though you've worked in a wide variety of motorsports what are some of the key differences in terms of how the business is run from each one of these because it it does seem wildly different even though it's all cars on a track in many cases as i said before it's just formula one gives you all these elements technology which as much as you can say nascar there's technology there is not a lot of it you know so it is just wait can you explain that i don't know nascar what is what what is that is just all the cars the same that the idea they are very similar you know they are not complete the same but the base is the same you know nascar it's not about technology you know it's about racing sheer racing and people having a good time on the weekend you know and and therefore i think it's a sport which never picked up internationally you know it's difficult to sell these big cars or or people attract them if you go to europe or asia it's very difficult to do because they're i mean in the states here you know we know these big cars this is what we like but in in other places it's not like they cannot really connect with these big things they don't think these are race cars they think you know in the end they're stock cars but i i think it's a good race series but uh will it never be as big as formula one no it will never be a global sport you know just cannot go there i mean it's the same rallying you mentioned rallying in the 80s and 90s was very big in the not televised rallying because there's a car going down a single car going down a road you know once you have watched three cars it's like yeah you get it exactly yeah yeah it's like all right I got it you know you look at the watch you know who's fastest you know after okay I got it but I'm not going to watch that the whole day long and there is you know or three days long so it's very difficult to televise it's a fantastic sport in my opinion but it will never be a really big sport and going back to F1 why because as we said in the beginning, you've got what drive to survive showed, you've got so many you have technology you have got the politics you have got the glamour you've got the bullshit you get everything in there and that is people always there is always something in F1 normal car racing you've got the race on the weekend on Monday you read about it and then you wait until the next race comes in F1 you read something about Tuesday what Max Verstappen did you read what Lewis Hamilton did you know on Wednesday there is always something going on a bit of a soap opera exactly yeah exactly yeah what attracts you to it it's amazing is it the what what got you into this this sport what made you the bullshit is it the bullshit what what is it the bullshit no no no I I love racing I mean I'm in any racing just you the idea is so I follow actually uh a lot of racing I mean some more than others but you could ask me who is good in whichever series I can give you okay a pretty good answer you know uh uh because uh that's what I do since 40 years I always loved racing cars since I'm a child and it doesn't go away you know it's just something attracts me I mean uh you know a lot of people they watch football or they watch soccer I mean I don't watch that you know I I listen a little bit who is leading the championships but I I wouldn't I I personally cannot watch a soccer or football match the whole match I cannot do it it's just not in me because I'm not interested enough in it I look at the but I cannot do it because I just love racing cars and you know when you're in a long time obviously you uh you you love I love business and then you start to love the business of racing cars as well because it is it is a good business and business doesn't mean doesn't only mean making money also what we said before to start something up to give something to society you know to make a living out of it which is good if you can do something in life what you love and like you normally do it in your life and you can do it in your life and you can do it in your life and you can do it in your life and you can do a good job I'm a big believer if if you give me a job I don't like I'm completely because I could not be interested in doing it unless you get to work with good people that you like yeah exactly people share the same passion and passion exactly yeah which is cool you know Perry has a good question I how did you end up going from a mechanic to these upper positions like managing eventually owning a team like I feel like that is almost the story of the game I think it's a good question I think it's a good question I think it's a good you hear in like a movie not really what you'd expect to hear about a movie I was like I made my way anyway I made my way from the bottom to the top I started working in racing like all this time ago so how does that transition into the business of it actually the fact that you started as a mechanic it's so interesting you're talking about how much you love racing and that's all that you watch but also clearly are really tapped into the business side and think about it and care about it a lot but also you started as a mechanic and you made and worked on car it seems like you've touched on kind of all the different aspects of it so yeah how did that journey change progress it's it's again I never worked in a racing car until I was 20 I finished my national service and I just applied I read magazines about racing cars and a job advert in there they were looking for mechanics in Belgium I lived in Italy I applied for the job I didn't think at the time I will get the job because I never worked with racing cars so why would they offer me but they said can you come for an interview so I drove to Belgium you know interviewed and they gave me a job you know and that is how I started I loved it you know I was into it you know and then from there on and it was different times guys I mean this was 40 years ago I mean you know you were not even born when I started you know so but I'm 35 yeah you see none of you were even born when I started racing so thanks for making me feel even older because I have a question I never applied for a job afterwards you know once you're in once you were in racing it was like okay you get to know these people they ask you if you come to work there there was an opportunity and obviously opportunity uh normally they are connected with challenges and risk I was never afraid but once there was something there hey Gunther would you you think you could do this sure I can do this you know uh confidence and ignorance takes you a long way you know so that's a mix together exactly mixed together and that is how I moved on and how I ended up in Formula One again I like to tell that story how strange because I was in rallying I was perfectly happy wasn't looking for a job was technical director at M Sport you know which was the Ford Works team and I got a call from the assistant of Niki Lauda you know the uh the former three-time world champion yeah he wanted to speak with me I said sure Niki Lauda he was my childhood hero you know he wants to speak with I never met the guy before and he got my name because he was running Jaguar F1 which was owned by Ford Motor Company so they said he was looking for people he said speak with this Gunther Steiner guy you know so I went for dinner with him and he gave me a job that is how I ended up in F1 you know and and again and the business side of it I uh I grew up my family they had a butcher they had a butcher shop so they were always in business so I like that part of it and I always want to have my own business because motorsport is quite quite volatile business you know and it's not a big there is not like in in soccer or football it's not like in football it's not like in football it's not like in football there are hundreds of people involved and you can find a job motorsport is pretty small you know so if you lose the job it's sometimes difficult to find one so and you have no security you know right so I always said I need to do something not to have always to rely on getting a job and then when I came to the states I came to the states uh with Red Bull to open up their NASCAR team I decided it's time now I start my own business and that is how I started my business I had some experience there like at m sport I didn't start m sport but the engineering side of it I started for m sport you know so with combining it and I just kept on going and and I always like to do uh new things exciting things you know and I like challenges I think it's interesting to hear that story from you because that there's similar themes across anybody I've met that works in kind of a niche industry any niche specialized industry you know I've never been in a niche industry it's usually like find my way in somehow when I'm young uh hold on to that first job and then be really proactive and eager and then you just the the industry is so insulated that pretty much every opportunity just comes like recommendation by recommendation like you're never apply you're never applying to something you just have to like make your name within this niche space and like hope the next opportunity kind of comes your way uh yeah absolutely and as I said before motorsport was if it is small now it was a lot smaller then and uh motorsport you couldn't now people you know you can go to university uh engineering schools but where they teach you racing cars and all that stuff at the time that didn't exist you needed to to love racing cars and you got the job you know and you need to have a mechanical understanding of things and and you could work in it today this wouldn't be possible you know but at the time it was possible to said uh you know I I took the opportunity I moved away from home you know uh and I was like I'm gonna do this I'm gonna do this uh two thousand miles away from home and uh 1500 miles away from home and and and and started new but but that is what I wanted to do at the time you know and that for maybe it worked out I want to ask you about that because you said you know my age makes you feel old but you telling us what you're doing at a day-to-day schedule is making me feel old because you talked about you just got off a plane from Madrid you've you've done decades and decades of stuff and now you're starting a few months ago essentially this brand new challenge of owning a team are you ever going to slow down your life I'm not I I is it into your mind at all are you full speed ahead gas got a guy forever you know as long as I'm healthy I think this is what I mean my family tells me I mean I'm sure they tell me why you're doing all these things your way obviously what you miss your way from home but I I try to take care of them taking them sometimes with me I I'm lucky because uh I married my wife more than 30 years ago and already at the time I had this lifestyle because if you change the lifestyle you're going to change the lifestyle you're going to change the lifestyle where it couldn't work she she she doesn't know any different not that she agrees to it but she doesn't know any different you know so you can't get her too used to it exactly yeah exactly but it's one of the things I I quite uh I quite like to do things you know for me uh it's I hate to be bored I hate to do nothing it's it's it's a very strange thing I I'm very uh I wouldn't say impatient I'm very I always need to have something to think about something which I need to work out being on the road is just part of it because that is not what I like most but for example when I fly you know some people or they look which airline they fly with and uh you know for me that is just like it will be shit anyway so just get over with it you know and go there what you need to do you know I have no expectations if you do if you do things without expectations pretty easy to do you know that's beautiful advice this morning I mean I I got uh back home from Madrid last night at 9 30 I left the house at 9 40 9 30 this morning you know but uh for me like okay I need to go to a flight it's four and a half hours from Charlotte to LA I'm so relaxed going on because it will be four and a half hours which you know they're not enjoyable sitting on a plane but it gives you time to think think about the positives you're left alone because nobody bothers you so at least you I take that advantage and do that one on it instead of oh I have to sit on this one and a half hour that is shit you know no I don't care about it you know no expectations no it's good I mean that is a good healthy attitude I'm very Very impressed. Okay, but, so I don't like travel, so I'm biased here. But you, how many days a year do you think on average over your 40-year career have you been traveling? I would say an average between half, 50, and 200 days a year I'm traveling. That's so crazy. So half of your entire adult life you've been traveling. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Wow. Tomorrow afternoon at 4.30, I fly to Vienna because I've got the MotoGP race. And then I fly back to Tuesday. Dude, straight to Charlotte, to L.A., to Vienna. Dude, that's crazy. Dude, that is insane. You got lounge access? So I think an underestimated part of F1 for people that don't know much about the sport is the logistic setup that each team goes through on a race weekend or a race week. Like, what leads up to each one? You have all these people, all this gear, these facilities to build out. I kind of, I wanted to know. I wanted to know what managing that looks like from the principal's perspective. Like, when do you show up for the race? How do you oversee all these teams that are moving in basically an entire company's warehouse's worth of stuff? These teams, they are so good in doing what you just said, the logistics. As a team principal, you don't have to worry. You've got your people, which know exactly what to do. You need to get the right people, like everything. Because it's such a well-oiled machine. Because otherwise, they couldn't put the show on, they put on. And it developed over 50 years. You know, it started up slowly and got better and better every year. What about that first year that Haas is a team? Was that year like crazy or challenging? Oh yeah, that was really challenging. That was really challenging. But again, I don't know if I was lucky or if I was good. I think a combination of both. I found the right people. That is what you need to find, you know. Because you cannot do it all yourself. And I'm against micromanaging, you know. I just want to have the right people. I'm always there for you, but I'm not going to do your job. Don't ask, you know. Because then I'm actually going to do it myself anyway, you know. So I just had very good people there. And it was difficult to get all the equipment together. And again, we were not the richest team. We couldn't just spend money for the sake of, you know. So we had to be very careful. But it was all done. I mean, obviously, going to Australia, because the first race was in Australia. Can you imagine that? You go to Bahrain for a test, and then you ship everything to Australia. And everything worked very well. But FOM, you know, the promoter, it's all centrally, the logistics organized. You know, everybody puts their stuff together. And then you need to put it on a plane, which is organized. But FOM, you know. And also the containers, you can ship it wherever you want. But all the teams stick together. Because if there is a boat out there with 11 F1 teams on, if there is a problem, that boat will get priority. You know, if you're on some strange boat somewhere, you could end up without the stuff. But therefore, you're always ganging up together and like clearing customs and things like this. You need to do it together. Otherwise, you could get stuck in customs. So it's a well-oiled machine. But if you see how complex it is and how good it is done, it's amazing. A lot of companies could actually learn from them processes. Because if you think on a Monday morning at 7 o'clock, you go to a racetrack after a race, you would never know that there was a race. There was a race that weekend. They all gone. I saw it in Vegas. Yeah, it's crazy. So when you're talking about picking the right people, I was wondering, when you came in as this first American team in like 30 years in F1 at the time, and you have all of these storied European teams, way more established, did that present a problem as an American team, like finding the people and the resources in these things? I mean, that's your job to figure out, I imagine. But was it hard because you were an American team? Did it really make a difference? No, no, no. The American team was not an issue because we had the base in England. You know, we had the base in England. So that was not an issue when you come with a new team. And obviously, as we always said, we did things completely different. And people, when you explained to them in the beginning how you were going to do it, they were like, that cannot work. Why not? Or because it was never done like that. Never done like it doesn't mean that you cannot. I mean, that's a big lesson for people. You know, it's like, oh, it was never done like that. Okay. Why does it mean you cannot do it differently? You know, and that was more to convince people or not convince that they, some people get it immediately. Okay, that's actually not a bad idea. And I jump on this bandwagon because it gives you an opportunity, you know, because we were a small team and you could do a lot more than being, you know, the saying better to be the tail of a cat or better to be the head of a mouse than the tail of a cat, you know. You know, you're more visible, you know. You know, you can be a number in a big team, in a small team, you can make a more difference. Responsibility comes with accountability as well. But if you want that challenge, there was opportunity. And that is what I found a lot of people. I didn't expect that there was so many. They were in big teams, but they couldn't see them going anywhere. They were stuck, you know, because their boss was there for the next 10 years. So do I want to do the same job the next 10 years? Or do I want to do maybe a little bit of different job, maybe having to work harder, being somewhere in life. Be a more meaningful part of a smaller team. Oh, that's really cool. I am wondering, like, the, so there's a scene in the very first episode of Drive to Survive. I haven't watched it. And you haven't watched it? We haven't watched it. But you might remember, it's, I think it's the 2018 season. And it's the Melbourne race. And you guys have placed, you qualify really well. You're like fourth and fifth. And then in the actual race, both of your cars have an issue with the pit stop and have a loose wheel. And at least in the show, it's presented as primarily one mechanic who is new making a mistake. And he's super distraught. You know, he's, he's like, he's crying a bit. And he's feels obviously very guilty that the team's failure at this opportunity is like very much on him. How do you like the stakes are so high in that moment? You're one of like 200, 300. 300 people on this team. And you're kind of the reason that the team failed for that weekend. How do you manage that situation or help that person get through that? Because I think that stuff like that is really, really hard. Yeah, it's not easy because obviously the first thing came up, we have to suck this guy. I said, no, no, the guy was actually a very good mechanic. You know, I knew the equipment that year. There was a problem with the wheel nuts. And even in practice. Two stops out of 10. They had exactly that problem. And these two stops, they came in the race. I mean, the guy was one, actually a very good mechanic. He's still in Formula One. And for me, getting rid of this person and he was distraught. He obviously, we didn't tell him that everything was shit. He knew that himself, you know, he didn't need any encouragement in that one, you know. But for me, letting him go would have, first of all, destroyed him. But the whole team. Would have suffered because they would lose all their confidence because these guys know exactly what happened, you know, and it wasn't his personal fault. It was fault of the equipment and being unlucky, you know. So if I let him go, guess what? The confidence of the other people doing the speed stops, where that would go. I mean, they would be, we would have, it would take six to 12 months to fix the pit crew again. If you let that guy go, it's better. I had to pick him up. You know, and the other thing is never kick a guy if he's on his knees, you know, you never do that in life because that is not good, you know, and the guy was on his knees. Obviously, the easy thing to, oh, I suck him and I blame him. So I wash my hands. No, we as a team didn't do a good job. We had a technical problem. We need to fix it. Help this guy up. So the other ones get confident and on the next pit stop, they don't think about it because the pit stops, in my opinion, are between 70 to 80% up here mentally. They actually do. You know, it's the confidence you need to have that you can do it at any time under any conditions, you know, that is what you need to know. And as soon as you lose that confidence, you are two seconds slower because you are thinking about it. You don't, you just have to, I'm going to do this. You don't have to do it, you know, because there are little jobs each of the guy does, you know, but they need to be perfect. And if you're not confident, if you hesitate, you know, there you see it, you know, if one of them hesitates, it's not going to happen. Wow. It's so fast. It's unbelievable. But you can see this is not actually the job. Look at the guy, the job, boom, boom. Yeah. It's all in. I always think it's mentally, it's very challenging. And if you're insecure or you're afraid, you cannot do this. You just cannot do this. Yeah. You need to be. And therefore, that guy, we picked him up, said, hey. No, it makes sense for the morale of the whole team. Exactly. Yeah. He obviously cares about it. So he's not like, he wasn't. Yeah. We need to be. And then to tell him that, you know, it's like. No, that makes so much sense. What are the biggest lessons that you've learned over 40 years of managing people or hiring people and running the team? Because certainly it sounds like from everything I've seen, people really like working for you. And how did you cultivate that? Is it just your natural charisma? Is that intentional? Have you changed things over time? No, I would say it's a respecting. For me, the most important thing in life is to respect people. You know, you can have. You know, I have, I throw tantrums like a child sometimes you know I know that but but it's emotions but then I come back and I'm never afraid to apologize you know if I did something wrong but I always what I what I demand from people is to respect because I respect anybody you know whoever you are in life you know and and in a team that is what you need to do and to get a team to work as a team that is what you have to teach them you need to respect each other you don't have to like each other or be friends with each other but each other's job you have to respect you know and you need to be to be prepared as a boss to make hard decisions to let people go if they don't contribute for the good of the team because otherwise you set a bad example having a rotten apple in there and you don't do anything about it as a boss that's not good because that with that I don't respect the other people one has to work and one doesn't have to work and both get paid that's not good you know so it's sometimes you say if you let people go that's that that's hard it's hard but sometimes you have to do it because the good people deserve that one you know because the other person doesn't contribute to the good of the team so for me respect and and you know do I achieve always to respect everybody at the first place no no because I'm not perfect but it's something I know and you work on it you know but I normally if I don't respect somebody anymore I struggle with people I normally fall out with them that makes sense and I tell them I tell them but I think of them you know which normally is not good things when I tell them you know there's something like refreshing about that I think people are are attracted to that honesty the ability that you're not gonna you're not gonna do the bullshit you're not gonna keep it secret I think over time that builds up a level of trust among people that work with you probably can I ask you what about like a a low point you know you've had this long distinguished career you've done all this stuff are there parts where you had you seem very confident did you ever have self-doubt did you ever feel like what was what was a point for you where you felt very uncertain about the future or what you were doing or where you felt like you had to make some changes you know I I think I think I did I'm not I'm not Mr. Perfect but I don't remember but for me the thing is that period is normally very short because then I get up the next morning you know I I could compare it with a bad race result you know is on a Sunday night you have a bad race we had really bad ones it's not it's not fun you feel like shit you feel yeah yeah feeling shit means it's already a compliment you know because because you know already what Monday is coming everybody else will tell you that how shit you are you know and you know that you were shit you know so but that for me it was always more how can I get up again I always try to look at the positive things going forward so obviously in your career you have points where you lose your job you know and and take care of yourself you know and and take care of yourself you know and and take care of yourself you know and and take care of yourself you know and and take care of yourself like this but you have to get yourself up again on uh uh on your feet you know it's like the world is still a good place you know the sun will come again you know even if it rains the sun will come again you know so just dwelling on oh this was bad I mean no it's like what is out there I mean and and I'm a big believer one door closes two open you know sometimes you think oh if this if this goes wrong I'm done no no no actually there will be more opportunities I think and I think after and and I I can tell you that of my own experience you know there was always something as long as you got uh you know and the will to do it it's the will what you need you can do it I mean I I heard you say part of that in a different interview that you did and uh a lot of that interview is focused on when uh Gene gave you the call and like let you go from Haas a few years ago and I I don't know if I was surprised but uh you were so insistent on the lack of a grudge like how you were pretty accepting and ready for that decision to be made and I I would you say that's like a quality you're carrying through your life like intentionally like not I guess giving people the benefit of the doubt or or uh not holding grudges over something like that because obviously that you know that was a position that you held for a long time you obviously had disagreements about how the team was run but you don't seem to have any heavy feelings about it in a way no I I don't care and that's the worst for me can get you know I I don't I normally don't hate people or anything I just don't care about them if I don't like them you know so that's what I feel so for me I I think of me my family you know and uh it didn't work for me anymore I couldn't see a future what I was doing you know and I I said it before I should have stopped before but as you said it's something you're in there you cannot give up you're in a rock and a hard place you don't want to give up but you don't really see how this could go forward you know and at some stage it when it happened I was happy I was more than happy I mean it's time it's it's actually time I didn't even want to discuss it I just told him you can do what you want to do I do what I want to do I'm I'm fine is there some sort of like dream scenario in racing that you haven't been able to I I guess get to yet like you you know you're talking to a triac was talking about how you uh you still are working so hard you still have kind of this relentless pace in your life and you don't really seem intent on changing that so I'm wondering like with the moto gp team you have now uh with what you accomplished in f1 like is there something that you really have in mind that you haven't been able to do in your career so far that you're like I still want to achieve that like 10 20 years from now winning a world championship yeah yeah you know that is what and that is what you if you're in racing to race and I'm in racing to race that is you want to win you know and that is my dream you know and that for that I think keeps me going wow what what's like the the path to I guess the most reasonable path forward to like achieving that do you feel like you you'd like sign up to be a principal for another another team again I I guess I didn't fully understand your answer from earlier like no no no no I I didn't fully understand your answer from earlier like no no no I don't think that's right that's right that's the yeah or it could be in any yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah got it got it got it got it okay could be more to gp could be anything that that would be a perfect life scenario for me to win that one because as I said I've done a lot of other things you know but I never won this championship you know I start a few teams I started a few projects I started a few things it's good but in the end I never won that one while you're doing it and I'm not you know that I'm get obsessed by it but that is you asked me what would you like that is what that's the highest goal yeah that is still the most insanely rare right like I mean even people the most talented just such a few manner of teams that's but yeah it doesn't matter if you don't try if you don't try you'll never get there I get it I totally understand it makes total sense well speaking of doors opening maybe the most important door in your life is this new podcast that you've kicked off and you know what we can do is maybe you and I will do our show and your show will do a contest and if you rank first that would be the grand we'll call you the grand champion of the grand champion of podcasting yeah yeah I don't even understand the podcast industry completely and I do it but I mean you're the experts here you know if you want to know about racing come to me if I want to go talk about podcasts I need to come to you you know yeah this is real hard equally prestigious fields just two I'm real meaning in the minds but you have I mean just while all this other stuff was going on and you were a pundit for formula one for the last couple years on top of all these other things you've been a pundit for formula one for the last couple things you also wrote two books and you started this podcast can you tell us about those real quickly and maybe even plug some upcoming stuff that you have yeah I mean the books again one of my life stories I never want to do a book I had no interest in it you know honestly I mean it's the best book plug ever it's like this guy calls me up hey I want to do a book about you didn't answer the email sends me another email didn't answer it the first set out of respect I answer the guy he's three times you got to give him a shot yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah thanks for your email but I'm not real interested then can I can I can we just have a talk all right let's have a talk with this guy you know and we talked then he came to see me and we became friends and he's my ghost writer he's actually coming to the Austrian race with me I did the book we did 87 shows I did with him 87 I was ready to kill the guy you know but anyway yeah yeah but but that is how it started honestly I said no to a book but and the thing was like I said I'm not writing a biography because every man and his dog has done one you know and who would actually buy it you know he said no no we're doing a book he came up with this idea about a year in your career going forward I said James is James and if nothing happens that year what are you gonna write about you idiot you know be sure something will happen you know and we had good fun you know he came to me to a few races and again for me it was and it became I think it's it's if not the best-selling motorsport book ever at least it's in the top three and it was a number one in on the Sunday Times I mean for a motorsport book but again credit goes to him not to me I mean I can do the stupid stuff he needs to write it which is as difficult as doing it you know so anyway no and then in 24 I was approached let's do a podcast you know and I knew I was going to do a podcast and I knew I was going to do a podcast and I knew these guys because I think like with you guys I did a podcast with them with Brian and Matt from Red Flag and we started wanker hours you know the podcast you know that was our name we were going to do so anyway and uh you know hopefully more people subscribe so we get in front of your podcast at least i win one championship no and and it's good fun i mean i enjoy it because it is about formula one but not we're not talking about uh which lap the tires were changed uh you know we're talking in a more interesting for the the people which i think casuals yes the casuals which like the action you know like a little bit of uh you know disagreement in a podcast not just technical or they had a new front wing no they had a rear new wing who the hell cares we want the action so that well you know that stuff that's the cool part is you have the experience to know that stuff but you can still bring the bring it up yeah and then we're actually doing a a we're doing a show on saturday uh it's the 24th of dover i think i you know i'm traveling so much i'm lost in at nine o'clock on saturday uh during the austin grand prix uh you know we're doing a live podcast so hopefully a lot of people are coming and we did it last year it was pretty successful and you do it again and it's good fun because the audience as well can ask some questions in the end so it's always interesting nice good designers thank you so much for coming on our podcast it's a really interesting conversation again check out if you're at the austin gp the live podcast that he's going to be hosting and uh or check out the the podcast that we just mentioned but from all of us here on wanker stand and we'll we'll be racing at the wanker grand prix again thank you so much thank you guys for having me and we'll see y'all next time bye