11. The Science of Influence: How to Persuade Others And Hold Their Attention

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Growth shouldn't depend on whether you happen to have access to the right mentor or organization. Everyone deserves support and becoming more effective, more thoughtful and more confident in how they show up. Visit strawberry.me/smart and take 50% of your first session. Make sure you let them know Matt sent you that strawberry.me/smart and now back to our conversation. Hello, I'm Matt Abrahams and I teach strategic communication at Stanford Graduate School of Business. Welcome to Think Fast, Talk Smart, the podcast. I can remember to the weekend when I was a young boy that I discovered how cool persuasion can be. My mother had instructed my brother and me to create garage sale signs, but we needed to misspell them. She instructed us to insert a B in the middle of the word garage. So unlike all of our neighbors that weekend who were having garage sales, we were having a garbage sale. At the end of the day, we sold more stuff than anyone else. My mother proudly asserts that it was the garbage that drew people's attention to our sign and thus to our garage sale. Now I, of course, upon reflection think people just thought we were stupid and they'd get better deals. Regardless, I learned that day that persuasion and how you influence people can be affected by the language and communication you use. And when you think about it, much of our communication involves trying to influence others. If you're trying to pitch a new idea, get support for an important cause, or even get your kids to eat their vegetables. Then persuasion is the name of the game. Today, I'm really excited to be joined by Zach Tormila, the Lawrence W. Lane Professor of Behavioral Science and Marketing at the GSB. Zach teaches popular courses of persuasion and attitude. And his research provides valuable insights into how to be more effective in your influence. Welcome, Zach. Thanks a lot for having me now. Yeah, so let's go ahead and get started. I'd like to ask you to share how you think about persuasion. What's your definition? Yeah, that's a, I think a great starting point. In general, I think of persuasion in terms of the efforts we make to shape or shift people in their attitudes, their beliefs and behaviors. So it's not really about tricking people into doing what you want or into buying your product. And it's definitely not about forcing people to act or behave in a certain way. It's more about understanding the factors that kind of actually engage people or open them up to your ideas and input and maybe get them to see something, some issue or some entity a little bit differently. So that's, that's how I think about it. You've studied lots of important features of persuasive communication that can help us to become more effective. To begin, you've looked at the impact of engagement on persuasion. How does engagement influence persuasion? And what are some of the things we can do to increase engagement? Engagement basically refers to how much attention people pay to you in your message. So it's a way of thinking about how interested they are in it, how deeply people will think about it. And it's important because engagement facilitates your message's impact. So you could have a great message or argument or a compelling, say, candidate or offer, but if people aren't willing to attend to that or think about it, they're going to miss it. You know, you're not going to reach them. And so engagement is really about getting people to pay attention to what you have to say. And not surprisingly, you know, you can have more impact when they're doing that. And that's going to be really hard, Zach, in this day and age where people are constantly bombarded with information, just getting people to pay attention is hard. Yeah. And the way I think about it is that in situations where it's harder to get people to pay attention because they're bombarded and distracted and all these kinds of things, it's all the more important to know what the research shows about building engagement. So our ability to engage people will be enhanced by knowing what the techniques are and those techniques become more and more important, you know, the less focused people are. So share with us what are some of the techniques I'm dying to learn because I've got two teenagers at home and this will help, I hope. Yeah. Well, good luck. You'll report back to me. That's a hard audience. But, um, but yeah, so in my research and teaching, I usually emphasize a few core principles. And so one of one of the big ones is that from the outset, you have to make it clear that your message is important. And one of the best ways to make it clear that your message is important is by establishing that it's relevant to your audience. And, you know, there is a side of relevance that's super intuitive, that, you know, people are more attention to things that are personally relevant to them. That's not surprising at all. But there are some handy techniques you can use to establish that. So, for example, you can establish relevance by communicating physical and temporal proximity. So those are sort of technical terms that I use to talk about this, but that what that really means is that you're talking about things that are, um, they're urgent. They're immediate. They're happening here and now. So physical, uh, physical proximity refers to things that are around you around your audience. So in your community, for example, and temporal proximity means it's soon or now or current, um, that sort of thing. And so if you can let your audience know or communicate that the issue at hand, whatever it is you're talking about is relevant because it's happening now, it's happening soon, it's happening here and nearby, those kinds of things, um, they'll generally pay a lot more attention to it. They'll find it to be more important to them personally and then they'll get more engaged. Um, so that's a big one. Uh, another, another big one that that we could highlight here is that if you let your audience know at the outset of your message that you're going to be asking for their opinion or input or asking them to make a decision of some sort, they'll generally pay a lot more attention to you. So, you know, if, if following your message, you'll be asking your audience to weigh in in some way or to make some kind of decision or to vote or to do anything like that. Let them know up front. People pay much more attention when they know their input or perspective will be requested or invited at the end. Those tips for engagement, Zach, are really helpful. Do you have any more rapid fire advice for getting people engaged? Yeah, sure. So, um, off the top of my head here, here are a few ideas. Um, one thing is use the word you when you address your audience as you, using the second person, they tend to perk up and tune in a little bit. So, that's one, um, asking questions is another useful device. So, rather than making a declarative statement at the outset of your pitch, if you ask your audience a question, that tends to increase their engagement. Um, you can also increase engagement by referencing change. So, for instance, if I tell you that the guidelines around some health behavior have recently changed, uh, that would cause you to perk up. You want to know what the, what the information is and you'll get more, more engaged and think more carefully. So, those are a few off the top of my head. You know, say you, ask questions, reference change, that causes us to spike an engagement that can be useful in persuasion. Wow. Taken together. That's a really great toolkit for getting people to pay attention and be engaged. I know something else that you've done some research in is you've looked at the role of certainty and uncertainty and how they play in persuasion. Can you tell us about this and how we can craft messages to take advantage of both certainty and uncertainty? Sure. Yeah, certain, certainty is a big one. It's something I've spent a lot of time thinking about and a lot of my research has focused around that. Um, so the theme with the certainty focused strategies is that when you know people are with you in, in, in principle, they're on board or they have the belief or attitude or opinion you want them to, um, try to build up their certainty and that can be the thing that sort of transforms them from liking your idea to acting on that, buying it, recommending it and so on. So it's really about reinforcing that position they already have and strengthening it. That's right. It's, yeah, in fact, I think a lot of it is about strengthening it. So we think about certainty as a kind of attitude strength, you know, like just like a muscle can be strengthened, so can our beliefs and attitudes and opinions and, and, um, and then there are specific techniques that have been shown to help boost a person's, a person's feeling of certainty. Um, so for example, once you know somebody's on board with your position, um, try to help communicate to them that other people are as well. The, the more consensus people perceive for their own views, the more certain they tend to feel about those views. So, so if you ask me about my opinion towards something and then I, I give it to you and you can tell me that 89% of the people you've asked, you know, have a similar opinion to mine, then I start to feel like oh, really got it right. Like that that sense of being in the majority gives me a kind of social validation that makes me feel like my assessment was accurate or correct. So that's that's one of the things you can do. Excellent. And so tell us about uncertainty. How does that work? Yeah. So uncertainty is it's actually about getting engagement. So it goes it goes back to the engagement question in a way, but but uncertainty, the idea there is that although certainty is a good way to kind of convert an attitude into action, uncertainty is better at getting people to want more information or to think about something. And so if you can create moments of uncertainty or moments of doubt or wonder in your message that can make people feel curious, you know, they start thinking something like, oh, I wonder what's going on here or why did he say that or what was she going to say there, you know, that when people start to be curious and want more information when they have some uncertainty. And so there are ways that you can kind of trigger or induce a little bit of uncertainty as a way to sort of capitalize on that, you know, you can get to get people pulled in and more interested in the information that you have. Often, you know, when people sit out to influence others, they focus on the promoting messages. All the reasons somebody should do or think something. However, there are often strong restraining or resistance forces that come to play that might prevent the adoption of whatever it is you're trying to persuade people towards. I'll never forget, you know, I studied communication. My wife's got a PhD in psychology and we could not for the life of us get our kids to eat their vegetables when they were younger. And the reason was not that our messages were bad, you know, you grow up strong, your friends and sports heroes do it. It's they didn't like the way they looked or tasted. And it wasn't until we changed the thing that was restraining it that we actually got them to actually enjoy eating vegetables. I know you've done some research into ways to manage resistance. Can you share some of the best practices you've been covered? Yeah, sure. Well, you know, I have done some some work on resistance. And in general, there's a healthy amount of research on this topic that kind of highlights the ways you can sidestep or dampen in person's resistance if you suspect that's coming. So some of the things that have been found, not just this isn't just by me, but by other people who work on these topics, is that when you're suspecting resistance, so let's say that you have an audience or a target and you know they tend to be resistant or they tend to be skeptical or reactant to whatever you say, their contrarians, you know, those kinds of folks, taking a less forceful, more cooperative tone or using more cooperative language can be effective. So using words like we, us, you know, together as a team, you know, things like that, this sort of create a common in group. We're all on the same team here. We're all in the same group. That tends to open people up. People are generally much more open to in group members than out group members. And so, you know, using cooperative, non-forceful language can help with that. So inclusive language makes people feel part of the same team and that opens them up. It helps. As long as it's plausible. And so, you know, there would be cases where you try that and people are thinking, are you crazy? You know, we're not in the same group, you know, like people who are so far apart or divided. But as long as it's plausible, so somebody who you do share some commonalities with or you are working toward a common goal with, you know, that kind of thing, highlighting that and using the right kind of language can lower whatever resistance might normally spike for them. So that's one thing you can do. It kind of related idea is to think about using pro-aditudinal framing. And so, you know, when you think about a person's attitude or opinion, you can usually identify whether it's, you know, positive or negative on some topic. They're favorable or unfavorable. A pro-aditudinal message is a message that's on the same side of an issue. So if that person, if someone's positive, it's also positive, not negative. Counter-aditudinal means it's on the opposite side. And so, sometimes when you're about to disagree with a person, which can be a situation that triggers a lot of resistance, you have a decision to make. What should your argument be? Let's say that you're making a job, a hiring decision with a colleague at work, and they want to hire a particular candidate who you think is terrible. You could decide to say, no, I disagree with that idea. That person's terrible. But that's a really counter-aditudinal position, which can trigger some resistance. If somebody is feeling resistant, that's not going to convince them. A softer approach is to use a pro-ad to a message. So maybe they think this potential hire would be great. And you could say something like, they're pretty good. You know, I see some of the good qualities there, but I also have some concerns where I see some limitations as well. And so it's likely that that kind of message triggers less resistance in your colleague, because you're on the same side of the issue, just not as far along as them. And so if you can identify some of those things that are good, maybe starting by pointing that out. Yeah, I see some of the benefits to that particular candidate, some of their unique attributes. But I have some concerns. People are less resistant. It sounds like you're on the same side. They become more receptive to you. Right. I really like that approach because it seems that it reduces the defensiveness that comes with resistance. So the person at least stays engaged and is willing to have the conversation versus shutting off altogether. That's right. I think in any time you're thinking about resistance and how to combat it, you're really thinking about defensiveness. How can you make people feel less defensive, less threatened by your message that you're not going to, you're not trying to say they're wrong or they're stupid or something like that. So taking a more open, agreeable, inclusive and cooperative type approach with people, generally, lowers their resistance. And then you have a chance that at least there's some wiggle room. It's still hard to persuade people who are feeling resistant. But you might be able to just move them a little bit. And that little bit might be just enough to accomplish the goal that you have. You don't always need to flip people. You love that candidate. I want you to hate them. I don't really need that. I just need you to like them less. And then you won't want to hire them anymore. And so keeping that in mind, usually you can have more success with little movements, baby steps, you know, and sometimes those can have a big impact. I think that's a really important point that many of us walk into our persuasive messaging and think it's all or nothing. When in fact, it's really a continuum in a little movement might buy you something in the short term or long term. And I think that's important for people to keep in mind. Yeah, I'm a huge fan of little movements, you know, like when you think about persuasion, that yeah, little just remembering that softening a person's position can can have a big outcome is really important. It's often easier to accomplish and can be just as effective for accomplishing your goal. We'll be right back to finish our conversation. But first, a quick word from our sponsors. Their support allows us to bring you this show free of charge. Our team is highly collaborative. And we're already using AI in different ways. But I've been wondering, could it do more? Could it help us work better together? AI can't replace the different perspectives and strengths each person brings. 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So before we end, I like to ask the same three questions of everybody I chat with. So I hope you're willing to answer these questions. Okay. Let's do it. All right. So if you were to capture the best communication advice you have ever received as a five to seven word presentation slide title, what would it be? Be confident, but also open and humble. Let me see. Be confident, but also open. Yeah. I got it. Yeah. So be confident, but also open and humble. Something like that. And it's that's not really advice that I got from any one person, but more like an amalgam. of insight that was passed on to me by you know from different sources. So question number two, who is a communicator that you admire and why? That's a good one. My communicator at least top of mind right now is Steve Kerr, coach of the Golden State Warriors. So I'm a big basketball fan and living in the Bay Area now for 13 years or so, I've gotten pretty swept up in warrior mania. So I pay a lot of attention by default to what's going on with the team and the coach. But I really like his communication style. I think he has this sweet spot combination that I was just talking about in the last question that he presents as calm and confident, but he also shows humility. He also uses humor very effectively to sort of defuse a question or the audience. And so yeah, so I'm going to say I like Steve Kerr that I feel like he seems in control. He seems calm and poised, but also open, not arrogant, and he's funny and he is engaging and feels trustworthy as a result of all that. I'm a big fan of his too. I think you and I both share a passion for basketball and I think he's a great choice as a good communicator to admire. So the third question is, what are the first three ingredients that go into a successful communication recipe from your perspective? But one would be get your audience engaged and that is often the first thing that you need to attend to. So if your audience isn't interested and involved, it's going to be hard to reach them. So focus on building engagement especially early on. My number two thing is probably establish your credibility and I don't mean here. I don't necessarily mean your expertise or your competence, although that's often important to do. But I mean, you know, this other stuff we've been talking about. So you should convey that you're trustworthy, that you're open and receptive to divergent views. If you can show that you have those kinds of qualities that you're open to different perspectives and can be trusted, it's easier to connect with and reach your audience. And then my third thing, I'd probably return to the importance of certainty. So once you know that you've got your audience on your side, focus on building their certainty, giving them some sense of conviction and confidence because that's, as I mentioned before, the catalyst that can sort of transform, you know, an attitude into action. You know, it transforms liking your idea or your product to actively supporting it, buying it, recommending it and those kinds of things. So so maybe maybe that is yeah, not necessarily the first three things, but three big things. If they're engaged, establish your credibility and then boost their certainty and conviction. And you just did a very nice job of helping me to wrap up some of the key takeaways from our conversation today. So I just want to end Zach by thanking you so much. We are leaving with some incredibly helpful best practices for our persuasion. Additionally, I believe the insight into influence that you've provided us with will help us become better consumers of the persuasion that we're exposed to. And for that, I thank you as well. Yeah, thank you Matt. I really appreciate the opportunity to talk to you today. Thanks for joining us for another episode of Think Fast, Talk Smart, the podcast, produced by Stanford University's Graduate School of Business. For more information and episodes, visit gsb.stanford.edu or subscribe to our show wherever you get your podcasts. Finally, find us on social media at stanford.gsb. Before we wrap up, I just want to say thank you for listening. It really means a lot to hear how people all over the world are using these ideas in their own lives. It inspires me and the whole team that brings you this show. If you want more episodes and resources, feel free to follow, subscribe and explore past conversations. We're grateful for your support of Think Fast, Talk Smart.