The Sales Framework That Helps More Patients Say YES to Care

This week I got to spend some time in one of our clinics with our newest doctor and it was so much fun because this doctor is like The last piece of the puzzle that we needed at Verve her energy is amazing. She's got a great attitude I feel like we've got the 18 now finally it's taken I don't know all of this year to Get to where we are now, but it felt really good But I went in because we wanted to train on her day one day to skills and her sales conversations And it really got Kyle and I thinking that we need to help clinicians Communicate better because most of you sorry guys. It's true most of you our docs included don't know how to communicate in a way That helps people get the solution to their problems a.k.a sell so this week's episode We're gonna go deep on the issues that we see most clinicians come up against when they are trying to sell a care plan or Anything in their office and we are gonna talk about the most important elements that will help you convert somebody from maybe unsure about your service to Absolutely, I need it. It's going to change my life. Let's dive in Kyle, can you please stop looking for the white hairs on your body? I wasn't a good mood and now I am utterly depressed You've just been spending too much time in the sun, you know, they're bleaching out. I for those who cannot see me I just found my first white arm hair and that is just staring at me and over the last few months my Chin and my facial hair Had been becoming lighter and I was like oh must be spending too much time in the sun by the pool and They're turning blonde and then we sold our house in the pool and they're still turning blonde imagine more are turning blond And now I have this fucking arm hair And now I'm just I think my time on this earth is is rapidly There's got to be a peptide for this decreasing I it was nice knowing all of you but my time obviously is near I think at our next sales podcast our kids. I love them. We should do some sales for white hair peptide solutions I'm a buyer. You don't even need to sell me But that's the point right we got to find the things that are keeping people up a night for Kyle That is white arm hairs, but facial hair too. Yeah, that's true. You have been Talking to a lot of clinic owners lately as we've been bringing just hordes of clinicians into our group hordes I have a hordes story for another day You remember that book club I was in oh God maybe it's for this day. So you guys I was in a book club at one point with some women who were not chiropractors and Most of the books were like gentle romcom Whatever type of books like just fun easy reads. I would listen to them while I was walking Or going to the gym and this one new person got to choose a book the second or third month I was in and it was like the Hordes of the Sex demon alien something it's like alien sex. Yeah, it was it was like with humans, right? Yeah, it was like a human prisoner and this guy was it was like a real beauty in the beast moment except he was an alien and he had vibrating balls And I chose you guys to listen to this on an audio book and I was Mordified when I was out in public. I was so afraid that this book was going to play out loud I was so mortified and so of like afraid that somebody was gonna hear what I was listening to that I just stopped listening to the book halfway through when I left the book club I was like I can't do this anymore. But anyways, I just found a white leg here hordes of people Coming into our group and you have been talking to them about sales conversions And I feel like between me training our docs in office my life is over Kyle stop Me training our our team in office you talking to these clinicians as they're onboarding into our group We're seeing a lot of overlap and commonalities in the areas where people are Missing in their day one day two conversations and I would love to hear kind of your perspective on that As you maybe stop looking at all the white hairs on your body all the areas we're in falling apart Yeah, sales is a weird topic. I've learned this in training our own doctors You know, especially some of the newer grads It's like you went to school to help patients and become the best doctor You can and to knock it suit and that's basically what they teach you in kaira practice school for my knowledge and understanding and Then you have to go Mark it and you know if you get people in the door then you got to convert them and then you got to keep them So you're really the sales process? Doesn't stop at the day two like you you have to make sure and and lead with value And I think where a lot of people have a misconception or a connotation about the word sales It's like oh well, we're selling someone something they don't need and so the reframe I always try to coach our docs on is like do you believe that Having this conversation and helping connect the docs for a patient who is need and need with you Ultimately will give them a you know positive benefit help their issue a transformative experience Yes, the answer is always yes and great Do you also believe that by getting them under your care that we are then likely preventing them from going another route the Traditional medicine route or you know what have you surgery other option drugs, right and you know The answer is always yes great. So it's kind of our duty then To help someone and influence their decision because if we come at it from that perspective Then we are really helping these families or these patients in front of us make a life changing decision It's not just which payment plan do you want for our care plan, right? It's literally Do chiropractic here with me or you're going to go somewhere else And probably not see a chiropractor or a national you know natural kind of a holistic option You're going to go the traditional route and we know what that can look like downstream and the ripple effects of all of that So the mindset piece is the biggest challenge for a lot of docs and ours included right like it's it's we're not immune to this Right a thousand percent. I think it's such an important thing to evaluate your money mindset So many of us graduate school go into our careers our professions whatever service we're providing probably a lot of your chiropractors And we don't question How we think about money what we think about money why we feel weird when people talk about money or sales or things But it's such a big issue. I ask our doctors all the time If money was not in an element here like if we weren't talking about exchanging money like take that part out Would you recommend this amount of care with this frequency to this person? Well, yeah, obviously Cool, so if that person Followed through with that care plan and received that chiropractic care with their life be better Well, yeah, obviously cool then just like Kyle said It's your responsibility to get this person to say us to this care plan to Why are you recommending six visits exactly because you think that's what someone wants to buy But their money is none of your business and we get so entwined with this feeling around money and these limiting beliefs that we have That we project this shit on our patients, right? It's like Think about anything in the world. There is an exchange of energy if I want to go have fun With my kids and play outside. I'm going to exert physical energy. I am my body is going to create ATP with the mitochondria powerhouse of the cell That's right And I'm going to expend energy to have that experience, right? That's an energetic exchange If I am going to go buy a coffee at a nice coffee shop I'm going to give them seven dollars and I'm going to get this delicious coffee and have this experience It's an energetic exchange Why would we expect people to come and receive chiropractic care after years and years of education after hours and hours of practice and like rehearsal and getting this down and like becoming an amazing clinician and then not Expect them to pay us or not feel like we should ask for payment like yeah, motherfucker This is just part of how it works and so I think you're right like we need to first Look to see where that money mindset might be impacting us because I guarantee that eight out of ten of you are struggling with it Even if you've dealt with it before it comes back up. It cycles back through and Yeah, it's just it's a big issue and I think that if you just have to remember if money wasn't a part of it You probably should recommend the amount of care that you would recommend at that point and then we bring but money back into it Like that is a normal exchange and that should be happening. So you just coach our newest doc Yeah, yeah, and she's a new grad And man she's excited. She's got some great energy walk us through How that went what was what was big glaring like gaps That a lot of other clinicians or their associates are probably also Experiencing and then how did you coach her through that? Yeah, it's interesting to reflect on this as somebody who's been in practice almost 10 years And I'm sure we have people listening that are kind of all over that spectrum At 10 years in you just have been doing it so much that it feels natural Connecting with other people feels natural When I sat down with this doctor She was really excited her energy was high her her tonality was high. She was ending on an uptone I'm imagining like the dog and up exactly. Okay. Yeah, she's happy to be there. She's goal retriever energy. Yep. We're coming in and that's It's like, okay, patient name. I'm really excited to go over your nervous system today because your nervous system is how your entire body works. And you're having low back pain. And I'm so happy you're here. And it's like, okay, cool. - It's stuff. - Let's pause. There's so much good happening here. And like, listen, I did this too when I first started in care because you're excited to show up for people. You know that what you can do will help them. I feel like arguably a new grad has that belief and confidence coming out of school more than some of our like, bitter, - They're not a jaded, crusty veteran. (laughing) - Exactly. - They still think the world is a good place. - And the counter of that is that they haven't seen the miracles for themselves. They've heard other people's miracles. They've been indoctrinated with the miracles of the service they provide and how it will change people's lives. But they haven't experienced it personally. So while there's this like borrowed belief, there isn't that confidence that lives in them yet. So it's a really funny thing to coach a new grad on this process. But one of the biggest things that I see is that the energy mismatch between the clinician and the patient, when it becomes a large mismatch, it's really, really hard to connect with somebody in a way that will make them feel seen, heard, and willing to receive what you're giving them or telling them. And so I think a lot of times what I've seen in our clinicians and it's not just new grads, I've seen five years in, right? Somebody who doesn't have a ton of experience with having these types of conversations who just was like either in an insurance practice where it was kind of assumed that you'll just keep coming in or whatever. They, their energy is too high. We come in, we're bubbly, we're up here. How many people are coming into our practice that are at that wavelength? Some, maybe 10%, but 90% come in because they're facing a challenge. They're having pain, their baby's not sleeping, they're, you know, doing a little scutical. Yeah, maybe they're skeptical. And when I come in and I'm just, I'm bubbly and I'm up here and they're kind of down here, well, that's not gonna be a good energetic match, right? Like we gotta kind of get our wavelength down to their wavelength. And I also think that we get so excited about what we do and how well we know it, that we kind of forget that this is like a big deal for people. This is their life, right? I'm seeing six new patients in a day, maybe, on a really busy day. I'm seeing 40 adjustments that day. So it's just like boom, boom, boom, boom, boom. This is what I do all the time, but this is this person's like big rock right now. This is the thing that's impacting their life. I think we need to respect where they're coming in at. And I think a way to do that is dropping down into kind of a more serious tone, right? And it's like, well, I don't want to scare people. I don't want to be so serious. I don't want it. They deserve that, right? I think there's a level of respect to it where it's like, hey, I'm gonna level with you, right? Did you hear what happened with my voice? I took it down. - Hey, hey. - You bring it down, right? You drop and then you end on a down tone. So I'm not gonna say, yeah, this is what's going on with your back, right? 'Cause that makes me sound unsure. It makes me sound too bubbly. It makes me sound not credible. - Not credible, right? When I have authority, when I'm respecting the issue that you've come in with, I'm gonna use my tonality to drop in and help you understand that I understand that this is serious. - Yeah, I love that. And I think the, there's a phrase for the energetic matching. It's called mirroring. And you'll notice this if you ever are with someone and maybe you, you know, I don't know, touch the back of your neck or something just like as we're in conversation. You might notice that someone will automatically subtly do that. And it is a subconscious human thing that we don't. - Mirror neurons. - That what? - Mirror neurons. - Okay, there you go again. You're using. - Kind of fractures will know that I'm talking about. - You're using your smart words, okay? But, you know, it's, it is very important to meet people where they're at. If they are coming in, then yeah, we need to kind of match them. And I think the tonality is really not talked a lot about a lot, but it's really, really important from a subconscious trust. Like right away, it's like, you could be bubbly. You could be, hey, welcome, I'm excited you're here. I took a look over your intakes. So tell me a little bit more about this issue. And then it's just like, oh, okay, before we drop in. - We drop in. - Authority, credibility. Like, yeah, this is, I am not your very first patient. - Right. - Because that's another thing is like, how credible are you? - Right. - Right, because if we think about the awareness stage, just to get someone to this point, it's I'm unaware, I have a problem, then I have a problem, then I'm evaluating solutions, okay, chiropractic, then I'm finding chiropractors in my area, I'm settling on Verve. Then the next step is, Dr. Danielle, is she the right clinician at this practice, at this, in this industry, at the, you know, so yeah. - And I think when you can drop in and have that tonality change, it, you're like, yeah, motherfucker, I am. - No, a lot of motherfuckers today. - I know, nobody walks into my practice, has a conversation with me and feels like I am not the right person to take care of them. - But you're not hard selling them either. - Never. - There's a clear distinction. - Right, but I have that confidence. I have that swagger, right? And I think that when you talk high, fast, and you never drop in, you don't quite have that swagger or that believability, right, that confidence. And I think confidence is one of the number one things that I see really derail new or docs especially when they're trying to have these conversations, because again, like we talked about, I haven't really seen it, experienced it to believe it in their bones. - So how do you coach that? - Well, we coach the mechanics of confidence, right? And what I tell my docs is like, ask every doctor here about their favorite patient stories. Barrow belief from us. Learn the stories, the experiences, the transformations, because you haven't created them yet or helped people achieve them yet, borrow hours, right? And I think repetition. I have our docs. I was coaching this doc and she's like, yeah, I haven't had that many people to practice with. I'm like, cool, that's not a good excuse. You see that mirror over there on the wall? Go get that mirror off the wall. I don't care about my decor. Go grab that mirror, pull it into an exam room and talk to yourself. There's your patient. And do it over and over and over again. The areas where you and I get stuck today or when you get stuck with me, where you're like fumbling your words, whatever. Cool, mark that on your script and go and do that one over and over and over again. It takes time, it takes repetition to expect that we would be good at something the first time that we do it or one of the first few times that we do it would be fucking crazy. It takes time and repetition. So I'm gonna teach her the mechanics, right? The tonality, the dropping in. I taught her how to transition, how we go from this part of the conversation, building rapport into this part of the conversation, explaining scans to making it about her. We talked about hooks, we talked about and we can get into all those pieces. But I'm teaching her the mechanics and then she has to take that and repeat it. And chiropractors, if you're listening to this, it's just like we explain the adjustment and neuroplasticity, right? It takes time and it takes repetition. If I adjust you once, is your nervous system gonna shift permanently forever? Probably not, right? But if I adjust a sub-lexation over and over and over again, with repetition in a short period of time, is that person going to get better? Yes. It's the same thing with our sales skills and our communication skills. You have to repeat it. And that's the biggest thing I told this doc because she's over here in her head questioning, imagining whatever. And it's like, that's cool. But unless you're actually getting those words off your tongue, practicing that energy, seeing yourself in a mirror or listening back with a recording, right? That's the other thing we do is we have her record them and then put them in AI. And I think we've talked about this before, but I have recorded myself multiple times doing ROFs. Role playing ROFs, explaining the ROF. I put that into AI and I'm like, this is the standard. This is what we're going off of. This is our training mechanism, right? Now I want you to take these other and I've created a skill in AI for our docs. Go into our cloud, take your recording and say compare it against the standard and give me feedback. So they're able to practice, hear themselves, hear mine, and then also get objective feedback from AI to show them specifically where to focus on in practice. Now everyone knows how working for you, you might cry during a role play. It's happened multiple times. This energy comes out. No, say it this way, do it again. Do it again. That was bad, do it again. Oh, you don't have time or anyone to practice, go get a fucking mirror. But I also say-- No excuses, play like a champion. You're doing good, you got this, let's go again. You're doing good, but that was shit, do it again. My energy gets intense, but it's because I know that my people are capable of more and that's, I think, the point, right, is so many of us come up against this and it's scary and it's hard and we're like, okay, I don't want to do it. Or I don't want to lead my associate and I don't want to be hard on them to do it. And I don't want to be mean. And it's like you're not being mean. We're pulling out the potential of people, right? And that takes intensity. We have to show people if I'm not willing to sit here and have this back and forth with my associate, then how can I expect my associate to believe that she's capable of more? If I'm just like, no, you're good enough, it's good enough. Good enough. No. - Worse than terrible. - Right. - So let's continue on this journey. So the mirroring, the dropping in, the tonality. - Yep. - What's next in the conversation? - Are we talking about a day two specifically? - We'll start day one. - Day one. - 'Cause I'm for, yeah, we're first coming in. - Yeah, I mean in our clinic, the way that we do it is, It's like, hey. Kyle, welcome in. I'm up here. I'm bubbly with you. So glad that you're here. I was reading through your chart and I saw that you're dealing with low back pain. I'm really sorry that you're struggling with that. I would love to hear in your own words what's going on and what you're feeling. So I acknowledge that somebody that I have taken the time to read this extensive intake because it does take time and people do get kind of annoyed with filling out intakes. Right. So it's like respect. I see you. I see your problem. But I would love to hear you tell me how many doctors do you go to that are just like staring at a screen never actually make eye contact with you. Right. So it's really important for us to establish the human connection. And that's one of our core values is human connection and our clinics. Because I think that it's such an important part of building trust and feeling like you're in the right place. And so we receive all of that information. We obviously go through the clinical part so that we can either diagnose and refer out. Like you say, look for those red flags. If it's not appropriate for our care, we're getting them out of our office. Rarely happens. But every once in a while. And we're trying to understand what this means to them in their life. Right. It's not good enough to say Kyle has low back pain. We talked about this on an episode a few weeks ago. Right. But it's like, what does this mean to you? Cool. You're coming in because you have low back pain and you associate care practice with low back pain. If that is our understanding and as deep as we go, then as soon as your back pain is better and two or three visits, you're done. Right. But it's like the tip of the iceberg. You and I both know that because we're on this side of it, right. That if somebody continues with care, not only is that back pain gone now, it's going to continue to stabilize and be better in the future so that you don't have those things recur. And you're going to start sleeping better. You're going to start having better energy. You're going to not maybe fight with your spouse as much. You're going to be better with your kids because you're more regulated. So it's like, I have to understand the impact of that low back pain. And so in our day one, we are really not just stopping at symptoms. We are trying to understand the impact, the secondary, the tertiary impacts of those symptoms. So we're asking questions like, you know, so tell me what what a day looks like. You know, okay, you're working at a desk. You're spending this many hours. You are getting home. You want to play with your kids, but you know, a lot of times you're spending time on the couch. Oh, okay. Is that is that just how you spend family time together? Or are you unable to play with your kids the way you want to? Right. So and I'm making it up right now. But like we're asking further questions to understand is sleep impacted is mood impacted? Is your, are your hobbies impacted? Like I think so many of us in clinic are like, okay, ADLs, right? Activities of daily life. They teach assistant school. I can't put on my pants, right? That's an ADL. I can't tie my shoe because bending over hurts. I have gray leg hair. I'm dying. I don't know if that's an ADL sweetheart. But we have to go deeper than that. That is a secondary impact, but it's not the tertiary. So when you can't bend over to tie your shoe or you have gray leg hairs, which really does not tie into this, but I'm going to use it anyways. How does that make you feel old, decrepit, like you're going to die, right? Picks. I need your care. Your words. I know. I was like, "Side me up." But if I can understand like seriously, I can't bend over to tie my shoes. What is that about? I'm 36. I should be able to tie my shoes. I can't pick up my kids. I'm worried that it's not going to just be my kids, but I'm going to be an old grandma. I'm not going to be able to play with my grandkids. It's like we or my mom went through this and I don't want to end up dealing with the same issues that she did. Most of the time, people are not going to share that with us unless we ask. Our day one is really focused on going deeper to understand why, first of all, what does somebody need and why? Because if we can connect them to their why, they're going to be able to understand the value that we provide and how that transformation is going to look in their life as opposed to just like a transactional service for symptom. Yeah, and people probably don't even realize that a lot of maybe other problems they have are actually all tied together and related. And so by asking a lot of these impact questions, right? Well, how does that? What's the consequence of that? And then what's the consequence of the consequence? That's kind of that tertiary really like big life impact. There's only so many areas of our life that it can show up in. It's with our immediate family. It's hobbies, it's friends, it's personal aspirations and it's work. And maybe sleep is somewhere in their through line through all of them, right? And so it's like you can ask questions about how this is kind of manifesting in different areas of their life and making them understand that like, oh, this is actually maybe one bigger problem than I realize because it is preventing me from playing golf on the weekends with my buddies. It is preventing me from, you know, wrestling with my four year old on the floor. It is preventing me from at work. I have to get up and like it hurts or, you know, the commute sitting in the car. And so, you know, we can help them kind of understand and paint a picture of like every area of your life would be different if we solve this one root cause and also your poor sleep, your headaches, whatever. It's actually maybe all connected. Another good exercise to do, either with a teammate or with an associate, maybe that you're coaching, is to have a conversation, a mock day one where you can only ask questions that start with what or how. It's hard. It's hard. And you will find yourself getting frustrated, not knowing kind of where to go next. What it forces you to do is listen. And that is a key piece of this part of the conversation. Is we the patient may not be giving us a whole lot. I mean, I have low back pain. Yeah, like what are your prices, right? And it's up to us to be like, we'll get there. Do you spagged? But like we got to, we got to like tell me a little bit more about everything. And so those are arguably the hardest conversations to have. If you have someone that just word vomits all over you, you're like, all right, let me unpack this. You know, because you're giving me a ton, which is great. And this is easier. But the skeptical or just people that are quiet and not really forthcoming with information. You know, it again, that can be kind of trust. We have to kind of get it out of them. So what are how questions force an open response, a conversation? And I think that you just triggers something in my brain, with especially newer docs. I think a big weakness is that they don't know how to do this well, because they're so focused on thinking of the next question. Yeah. Looking at their form, what do I ask next that they're not listening? And I think arguably the listening part is more important than the asking questions part. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Absolutely. What is going on? How is that feeling? What what happened previously? What have you tried to fix it? But if I just ask you a question. Yeah. And I don't actually, you don't feel like I'm listening to your response. I'm present. I'm engaged. I'm thoughtful about how I'm, you know, asking you the next question or the journey we're going on in this conversation. Then it's not going to land the same way, right? It's like, okay, well, you're wasting my time versus wow, you care about me. And it's I want to tell the story because I don't know, it's just like in my brain, we had this doc apply to work with us. And he is a season doc. He's been in practice for a very long time. And he came in and he wanted to shadow. And we got like too excited about this doc ahead of time before realizing it was not a good fit. It was very clear by the end of the interview process. But thank God he came in to spend some time in our office and to see that it wasn't a good fit. But he he watched our day one with one of our doctors a couple times. And he told her, yeah, you know, you guys really do your day one the way that I did early in practice. And you just you do all the stuff that's not necessary. And I can do a day one in, you know, 10, 15 minutes. That's not the point, you guys. The point is to understand your people again, human connection is a core value for us at verbs. So yeah, it takes us longer to do a day one. Why? Because we are creating space for someone to understand that we are their partner in this journey, that we are going to be able to help them in this journey. I would much rather preserve a 50-minute day one appointment. Then cut it down to 20, 30 minutes. If it means that I have to I would have to sacrifice that human connection. Now another mistake I'll see that I don't want you to take this as my justification for. So don't do this. What I'm not saying is to go in and ask a bunch of fucking questions that don't matter. Because one thing that I see especially with our docs who are newer to our specialty is they'll go in and it's like, okay, your baby has reflex. Got it. Okay. What time is your baby spitting up? Okay, got it. What color is there spitting up? Okay, got it. What what texture is there spitting up? Okay, got it. Is it on the front of your shirt or is it on the back of your shirt? Okay, got it. Is it when they look right or they look like there's a few of those questions that it's like, okay, relevant. That's helping me understand a little bit about the physiology, but we get so hyper fixated on the symptoms and on like the clinical side of it that we ask questions don't matter. We take up time. And so the filter that I want I'm like rambling here guys. I'm sorry. But the filter that I want you to use is is this going to help me deepen my connection? Okay, that's important. If the answer is yes, then keep asking those questions. Is this going to help me understand how I can transform their life with my service? If the answer is yes, keep asking those questions. Is this going to change what I do for this person in terms of the technique I apply, the method I use, the way that I do deliver my service. - I don't know how I recommend. - Exactly, my care plan. If the answer is no, stop asking the questions, right? Like you get into practice long enough, and this is I think a thing that comes with time and tenure. But like you eventually get that it doesn't really matter the texture of the sped up, right? Like we learn in our ICPA classes to like understand all of this physiology, like yeah, it's important as a baseline. But ultimately I'm just looking for sub-lexation. And if I clear that sub-lexation, whether it's chunky or it's milky, your baby's probably going to get better. You know, so that's kind of my point. It's like stop asking hyperclinical questions that you don't need to ask and take the time to go deep with your people to understand them and be able to paint the picture of the transformation. - One thing before we transition and move on is an easy way to really build trust with parents. And we do this in our clinic. Well, I tell our docs too. Is a good consequence of the consequence. Baby has reflux. Hey mom. How are you? I'm impacting you. Baby's not sleeping. How is this impacting you? All of a sudden it's not just about baby's issue, which is why they got here in the first place. But it's ultimately having an impact on you, spouse, sibling, right? All of everyone kind of in the family unit. And so that could be a good way to be shift from tactical technician to strategic health partner. - Yes. And you might hear that, oh, well now little Suzy is having a really hard time regulating because our baby, Johnny is having spit up all the time and we're so focused on the baby that we're not really able to give her what she needs. And she's having behavioral issues. She's having sleep issues. She's dysregulated. Okay. Well, this is an opportunity to get your whole family taken care of, right? So I think you get not just the deeper effect of what's going on with baby and why baby needs care, but you can help them find a solution for the whole family that might make everyone a little bit more regulated. - Yep. I love that. So that's good amount on day one coaching. Now let's transition to the day two where a lot of docs, I think, you know, trip over themselves, they think they need to have the conversation this way and they can't necessarily see the forest or the trees. So how did this doc do? What were some common challenges she was working through that you helped kind of guide her through? But we stopped like seven minutes in, not even probably five minutes in to our, her delivering the ROF to me because there was just so much. So it's like, let me just, let me just do it. And you listen. - It was that bad. - And then it wasn't that bad. It's just like clearly that we needed some more practice. We needed to be able to kind of spit ball workshop because this doc at this point in time had only listened to my recordings and trained with our other doctor who has been really busy with patient care. So in her defense, we needed more time. But when again, when we first started that conversation, she kind of came in really bubbly. And the first thing she did was dive into education about the nervous system, which like classic new doc, right? We're excited about the nervous system. We love chiropractic. We know what we do is miraculous. And so we focus on us and what we do and how like how the body works. Let me tell you, as a mom of two who's busy, who is time crunched, who wants a solution, if you start going off on this thing, that's like adjacent, but not really about me, my eyes are going to glaze over. I'm going to be thinking about what I need to get before I cook dinner that night. How my baby's probably going to scream at me while I'm cooking dinner because she's hungry all the time. Like, you've lost me. And I explained to her that when we are in an R.O.F. with somebody, we need to capture their attention the same way that like a social media reel does, right? We only have a few moments to get them engaged with us. So we have to make it about them and we have to show them impact fast. And so what we focused on was the greeting building rapport. Yep, like you're coming back. And then another thing too is labeling, right? Especially if you do a day one day to process. It might have been a week since you saw that person last, right? Hopefully it's just a couple days, but it might be a full week between those visits. So when they come back in, I want you to say, welcome back. I'm so excited to see you. How have you been feeling, right? Okay. Glad to hear that, whatever, right? We acknowledge what they've just said. Just want to reiterate what we talked about last time to make sure that we're on the same page. Go through everything they told you that's impacting them that's going on. Okay. And the goal, like if we're really successful here with chiropractic care, what that looks like is paint the picture of the end goal, the transformation. You were not just saying your baby has reflux and you know, it was having trouble sleeping, right? Right. No. It means this, which ultimately means this. And if we were able to solve that, then we're able to see benefit and benefit of the benefit. Is that correct? Or did I miss anything from last time? That's correct. No, that's correct. Yeah. Awesome. Okay. Did it, has anything else come up that we missed last time, right? Give them the opportunity to like say a piece that maybe they went home and forgot about whatever. Nope. That's everything. Cool. So now I'm kind of in this authority place of like, we've agreed. We've talked about what's wrong. We've talked, I've helped you. Specific to me. Remember. Remember the potential transformation, the thing we're going for. I'm building hope in your mind of what's possible. Got it. Okay. So I'm really excited. And now listen, I'm saying I'm really excited. But I'm not really excited. That was one thing we saw with this doc was she was like, I'm really excited about all this stuff. And it's like, I'm suffering with low back pain. This mom was pregnant with low back pain. And she had had a really hard pregnancy before with low back pain that made her not able to do things like she had to stop walking and moving. So I'm like, this mom's coming in scared that her pregnancy is going to be like that last pregnancy, right? We got it. We got to honor that because she might be in a good mood and nice, but she's got that in the back of her mind. I'm really excited that you're here. I'm looking forward to going over your scans because I think they tell us a lot about what's going on, right? They make a lot of sense. So I'm helping that person feel confident that I have a solution for them before we even talk about what's going on with the results that I'm going to show them. And then we transition in. And I think that that is a really hard transition for a lot of docs is like going from the rapport building, happy to see you bubbly, whatever into again, dropping in authority. And then the next biggest issue I saw, and you see this when they practice you all the time because you aren't a chiropractor. You don't know these scans the way that we do is we get to technical. Why don't you talk about that? Because I know that you've worked with this doc too and had that experience. God, yeah, she was just talking about like, you know, on this scan, this is what this one does. And this is the one that really is measuring this. And so you measured a 64. We want to get that to 100. And it's like, cool, what does that mean? I don't know what that means, nothing. And you know, I know we talked about HRV in a previous episode, but it's just like, I have no context. I don't know what this is all about. I, you know, you really have to paint it in broad strokes. And I think what you said earlier about the questions that we ask, like does it actually change the type of care or the technique we use? I think you could take a same philosophy and kind of this part of the conversation. And what I explain here is that actually relevant to anything related to your care. Like no, ultimately I want you to just have context of what we're looking at, orient the patient, lay of the land. Here's what this is measuring. Here's what this ultimately means about where you're at. And then here's potentially what life looks like if this score improves. Exactly. Exactly. Like paint in broad strokes, you know. Exactly. And I think the, again, the order in which we communicate matters. So I never want somebody to start, like I said, with the chiropractic communication, right? With like, let me show you my expertise in how smart I am. I want you to start with what matters to them. So we'll just use these scans as examples. If you don't use scans, I'm sorry, but X-rays, whatever you're using in your clinic, I want you to make it about them first. Like if there is something in that X-ray, if there is something in that thermal scan, that relates directly, right? We're looking at the spine. We're looking at regions of the spine, what they innovate and what else could potentially be linked to it. If I have a lot of stress occurring in the cervical spine and that person is having headaches, they're having tension in their shoulders, they're having difficulty sleeping and anxiety. You bet that that is the first thing I'm talking about and I'm making it about them. I want them to start our conversation with an aha moment of like, oh my god, it makes so much sense. And I'm telling them that. I'm like, Kyle, this makes so much sense. Look at the stress you have built up here in this part of the spine, what this means, brain and the body communicate, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, simple, right? Drawing it out in crann. But this makes so much sense to me. This stress that you have here, these nerves are also going to this, this, and this. And oftentimes when this isn't working the way it's supposed to, people end up with, and I circle it, headaches, anxiety, trouble sleeping, right? Whatever they're dealing with. And like that aha moment is the hook. They're like, I mean, your pre-hook is like the labeling, the transformation, the hope. Then you get them into this and it's like, oh my god, there's something going on. How many people have you had, and I'm talking to my, to the audience right now, but like, how many people have you had at the end of an explanation who are like, oh my god, okay, I'm not crazy. I've had so many women, some men too, mostly women, who at the end of an ROF or during the ROF and during this presentation, they're like, so you're saying I'm not crazy? Why has no one explained it to me this way? Exactly. That's what we want are those aha moments. We don't want to go off and explain a textbook to somebody and read, you know, definitions and explain physiology to a way. 80 else. But yeah, so I'm over explaining here, which I don't do in an ROF, don't do that. But the point is like, make it simple, make it simple. about them. And then at the end of that Kyle hates this, but I love it. At the end of everything, I'm like, does that make sense? And I'm looking for the nodding along, right? I want those what's body language cues, but I also want to verbal, yeah. Right? If somebody's like, yeah. Here's what we disagree on this though. Yeah. No one is going to say, no, it doesn't make sense, because no one wants to feel dumb. Yes, they do. I would rather say, what questions do you have before transitioning and moving on? So I can make sure that they are clear on everything, and that they have clarity, because I think that is stronger to then go into the financial or economics conversation. But let's talk about the fact that we want people to say yes to us multiple times, right? One goal during a good ROF is that somebody has said yes to you like 10 to 20 times. We have a friend, Andy Armer, who says, how many yeses does he get? I think he counted. It was something absurd. Yeah, I don't get that many, but I do have people nodding with me and saying, yes, throughout my presentation. And so this is one opportunity. And I will add that every time I say, does that make sense? Yes. Do you have any questions about that before I move on? I always ask for questions. Do you not what questions you have? It's closed ended versus open ended. Doesn't matter. I get questions all the time. No, something to say. Great. That means you get it. I can move on. I don't want to feel dumb. I have no idea what the fuck she's talking about. She said, mitochondria is the powerhouse of the cell. Listen, I draw that out. I draw it out in crann. And that's the point is you say it's simple enough. You get the people I'm looking for that light bulb. I go deeper if I need to, but most of the time I'm moving on, moving on to the next thing. And we talk about HIV. So anybody who does HIV, I love this because you said, does it impact the way that we are going to take care of someone? The care plan we're going to recommend. Sometimes if their HIV is tamed, I'm like, I'm not going to be able to, I probably not be able to fix this in 12 visits. You pretty fucked up, dude. We need, there's something I love. We're sorry about because God damn. There's a level of regulation. Well, we probably need to start recommending some breath work. We need to, yeah. Anyways. But like, that is my, that I explain HIV, but then I'm like, listen, this is great news. This means your body is going to respond really well. Again, I'm giving them hope, right? I'm not trying to scare someone. I'm telling them what's going on. I'm being honest with them. I'm dropping in to indicate the seriousness of this conversation, but I'm also going to give them hope. Or if their HIV is really challenged, I'm like, to this makes so much sense. You're really struggling. We'll look at your body. It's, it's just fighting to be here right now. Your body's in a constant state of fight or flight. Your body is totally tamed. This makes sense. And people are like, wow, they feel so validated. Right? And so I end on that impact of like hope or like validation, maybe some combo of the two. Great. You understand what's going on. Can I explain how we, how we do things differently here, have ever fixed that? So I'm asking their permission. I'm getting another yes, right? Or, you know, you, I know you mentioned that you've been to other chiropractors. We do things a little bit differently than most other offices. Is it okay if I explain our process? And by the way, in a day one, we should have already unpacked that. Definitely. If they have got, well, how many times did you go? What did they do? What are, whatever? Because now we're going to use it here at this point. Yep. Yeah. Exactly. And so I'm getting their permission. They're like, okay, cool. I'm excited. Like, how do they do things here? Right? And so then I take them through our journey. We go through the journey. We're explaining, you know, what happens? Why it happens? Why do we do care multiple times a week in the beginning? Why do we scale down our care over time? And then I'm always, always, always pre-framing wellness. Like you need to be talking about wellness 27 times before you ever have a conversation to convert somebody to wellness. Because otherwise, what they're looking at is the beginning of middle and end. They're like, care plan done. I'm done. No, you hurt your retention. So we're planting seeds for that, that retention moment there. And then once they understand what the journey looks like, how we do things differently, the mechanism, I shift over into my recommendation for them specifically based on everything that we've gone over regarding your body, based on your complaint complaint, based on your, you know, goals and transformation and what we're hoping to get here. I paint the picture again. What we need for you is to come in, you know, your correction phase, whatever work we're going to start at this. And if I'm recommending three times a week, I'm like, it's only for four weeks. That's really cool. Some people are coming in every day for, you know, eight weeks, but you only need three times a week for four weeks. And we're going to see significant shifts. And I'm going to, I'm going to plant seeds about what they should expect in that time, right? Because most people are looking at, like, oh, fuck three times a week. That's a lot. And they might be starting to doing, starting to do math in their head about what that's going to cost, right? And it's like, in that time, you're going to start sleeping better. You're, you're going to be reporting less pain. You're going to be, you know, playing with your kit again and feeling like blah, blah, blah. So it's like, we, we need to be painting that picture as we go. We can't just say it once and then hope that they hold on to that, right? I'm, I'm here with you. I'm in this journey with you. I'm telling you what to, what to expect. And then, okay, cool. So you understand what's going on? How we're going to fix it? Any questions about any of that? No. I just countered myself. I have them say, no, they don't have any questions. Do you have any questions? No, but I, but I'm getting started. Are you on a buy? No. Oh, man. I need to go back to the drawing board. Okay. Bye guys. No, I'm just kidding. But we listen, my conversions are high. We get into the financial conversation from two years ago. And this is, what was that? I'm so patient. Are you talking shit? I've been covering for our doctors over the past six months. And my conversions are pretty close to 100%. She's back, baby. Okay. So anyways, we get to the financial part. And this is where I see so many of our doctors just shit the bed. I love them. But it's hard, right? Because again, we go back to this money mindset thing. This whole process is just landmines for new grads and they step in all of them. Oh, absolutely. And you can't blame them, right? It's like you have to, you have to reprogram and relearn so much. But I think when we get to this point, we want to over-explain, we want to show value. And like what we do is too much. Oh, well, you, you get this and you get that. And you get, it's like feature, feature, feature value, value value. But wait, there's more. But then we kind of back off. And it's like, Oh, but I'm sorry that I'm asking you for money. Join us, pay for visit. See how it goes. We'll just see how it goes. What if we just start with six and then we can reevaluate from there? Oh, well, that person is looking for you to be their guide. They're you are confident. You you give them the options and then shut up. Shut up. Then that was a big unlock for one of our other associates is she started closing things like crazy. We were like, Hey, what are you doing? What changed? And she was like, honestly, I don't know. I just kind of stopped giving a shit. And then I just present you could pay in full. You could do monthly or you could do care credit. And she didn't say which one do you want to do. She didn't say what makes the most sense. She just stopped. And this associate that Danielle coached was sitting in on some of these. And she you should have seen her explain this. She's like pulling her hair out. She's like, it felt like an hour and they were just silent. And then they would say, I'm painful. And she'd just be like, great. Okay. We'll get you signed up. And let's get your first adjustment on the books and you know, whatever. So it's agonizing. Maybe for us, it seems like it's a long time. But when you have the authority and you have the confidence, people can feel that. And then they kind of embody your confidence of like, yeah, I'm in. I'm going to jump in with both feet. And I think that there is kind of going back to the money mindset. I think confidence is huge. You're absolutely right there. And people learn to whether they can trust you or not. And this abundance thing, right? It's like, I'm going to disconnect from the outcome. When we're early in practice, not necessarily new grads, but early in practice, every conversion counts. We desperately need them. I need to eat food. Yeah. I need to pay my overhead. Right. And so there's this like, are you going to do it? Energy that's like need this like, I don't know. And like need. They call it commission breath in like sales, like traditional sales. And that needy energy, like that pushes people away. It turns people off. And so I think for our doc, when she had this unlock, she's like, I just don't care as much. She does care. But she doesn't care about the outcome. She's not attached to the outcome. Do it or don't. I know I'm a great doc and I deliver transformative care. It has nothing to do with me. Yeah. Right. I know I've done a good job delivering this message to you. I know that I've done everything I can. Like, either you receive this or you don't. And I think that that gives people the space to choose without being turned off or like pushed away. But yeah, it's like, we have these three options. You can have this one. Would this save you the most money? This one tends to be our most popular. It breaks that up over time. You still get some savings. And we have this last option where you save a little bit of money. Your monthly payment is smaller. You pay over 12 months. And you can either shut up at that point or say which one works best. But then you still shut up. And you wait. And you wait. And you wait. And you wait. While the new doc is pulling her hair out next to you. And what happens there? Okay. So when we keep going and we don't shut up, you know, and we're like over explaining or like compensating for something, we take their silence is like a scary thing. So then we fill the void with our words, you know, and our neediness. That person starts to question and like kind of back out and look for excuses. And they're taking your insecurity as like, oh, maybe this isn't the right thing. When you shut up, you let them start thinking they look at it. They're like, okay, so I don't know if I have that much to pay right now out of pocket. I need to prioritize this thing over here. So they're silent usually during this. Some people will talk out loud. But most people are silent. They're thinking through it like, oh well, 500 a month, yeah, that's a lot of right now, but I could definitely do that. That probably makes the most sense for us. And then they'll kind of look at you and be like, yeah, I think probably the 500 a month makes the most sense. Cool. Or if it doesn't, and they're like, do I need to choose today? It's like, no, you don't. But can I ask which one you're leaning towards? And then we can start to ask questions to counter objections. And I think that's another thing that I see with a lot of docs is they let ROF's walk away. They let people who haven't decided walk away without asking questions. And if we don't ask questions, we can't understand what their objections are. And if we don't know what their objections are, we can't help answer the things that they're unsure about. And this is where I like separating. If they're like, I need to think it over. I need to talk it over with my spouse. We give that all the time in a family practice. And you know, you likely will too. So at this point, I might say, finance is a side. Does the plan, does the, you know, our philosophy, our mechanism, our solution, the plan, any questions. And I might go back to like, does that still feel good to you? Yes. Okay, great. So it's really just about finances then. And how to invest in this type of care. Yes. Okay, great. Now I've separated. If they're saying I'm unsure, I need to know and isolate what they're unsure about first, right? Okay, so you're good on the plan. If they're not, then that's an opportunity to kind of take one step back and then come back to the financial conversation. So good. Okay, and we're going on the chiropractic and everything, your frequency, all of that. Great. So let's talk about the finances. And you know, it had, before you came in today, was there a budget in mind that you wanted to stay within, right? Another tactic that we could try, and you could feel out and test in your own conversations is of these three, which one is just a hard no? And you might, those people might be like, I can't pay in full. I can't drop $2,000 at one time. Great. Let's cross it off. Right. So do you want to apply for care credit or a monthly, right? Because both of those are monthly options for you. Ultimately one is, you know, in-house. The other one is through a third party financing company, but you can get your bill down, you know, industry for 12 months cheaper than your monthly phone bill. Which one did you want to pursue today? We can go ahead and get you applied for care credit. That way, maybe you have some options, right? And you can know what you qualify for and things like that. So maybe that could be a good micro step to then say, hey, I'm trying to partner with you here. I'm not just going to take here. I need to think about it at face value. Sure. I'm not going to force you to sign on the dotted line, right? And if you want to think it over and talk it over with a spouse, like by all means, but help me understand kind of where you're at, so that I can maybe help guide you into what might make the most sense for you. Also our framing and positioning is really powerful at this stage. So, you know, obviously, if you offer a pay in full discount, it's likely your biggest discount off of the care. What we need to do is pre-frame an anchor with the full price would be of this program. 25 visits at $100 a pop is $2,500. But if we were to pay in full today, we're able to drop that down to just $17.50, which offers our biggest savings. This is the option most families do so that they can allocate accordingly, or, you know, whatever. The next best option would be splitting that up over the length of the care plan. So three months, we offer kind of a hybrid where it's some savings. So a 10% discount, but you're able to break those up into three monthly payments. So instead of $17.50, it's $2,000 and we're able to get your payment down to math. And then from there, right, we have the biggest flexibility and you notice that I could describe it or compare it with an analogy. It's cheaper than your monthly phone bill. Oh, my Verizon bill is $150. So you're saying that I can get started today if I qualify for $120. And also, fun fact, we have been using care credit. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. People are kind of like, I either don't apply, or I don't qualify. Qualify because of credit or what have you. Or I don't want to open a, you know, basically a line of credit or credit card, which I get, cherry or cherry pay now has opened up their system to chiropractic clinics. They used to offer it, then they took it away, and now it's back. Why? We have no affiliation, by the way. We have no affiliation. I just took a call with them last week. And basically they have 90% approval rates. They take a certain percentage off the top, which was cheaper than our care credit rate. And it is not a line of credit. It's not a financing company. It's literally like buy now pay later, and they make money off of the clinics. So, you know, which are-- They charge you a fee. Yeah, charge your fee, but not ongoing. There's no monthly membership. I'm literally, they should hire me to do their sales for them. But it seems like, and we haven't tested this in office yet, it seems like another option that we can offer people. It's just like if you go on Amazon and they say, like, affirm you could pay monthly. Clarna. There's retailers have adopted these, but clinics have been slow too. So now we can offer kind of a buy now paid later solution. That is interest-free, does not have deferred interest. And it's not a line of credit, and they have 90% approval. So, check them out. And that's kind of a side tangent. But the framing and the anchoring is really what I wanted to kind of drill home of how we position these things and comparatively. It's all psychology at the end of the day. Yeah, absolutely. And I think that, you know, if-- For anyone listening, if you have team, lean on your team. You know, we have a doc right now who is one of our clients who essentially has her office manager come in after she's had the conversation. And anybody that's on the fence, essentially, she's closing, we walk our people up to the front desk. So what I'm going to do if somebody's on the line and isn't quite sure if they want to do it, I'm going to try to understand their objections. I'm going to go to the front desk ahead of them. And I'm going to say, hey, you know, so-and-so is unsure if she wants to do painful or monthly. Because of this, here's the situation. I'm handing that off to my front desk, not telling them to do anything, but they know when that person comes up, that they're going to help try to find a solution for that person. So don't be afraid to leverage your team, but train them how to have these conversations, how to be politely nosy in a way that helps find a solution for the folks to get the care that they need. And I think that having that conversation in front of your patient is effective because a lot of times our people will kind of like sneak out, if they're like, I don't know about this. Then they say the doctor, like, yeah, I'm thinking about it. They go to the front desk, like, yeah, no, I don't want to get tested today, I'm out of here. And so like, make sure you're having that conversation where everybody's getting on the same page. I think that's such an important thing. But if you are not where you want to be with your conversions, or maybe you're not even recommending care plans because you're afraid that people are going to want them or they're going to say no. And so you're just going visit by visit. Like, I promise you that if you are asking good questions, you are connecting with people, you are helping to understand their goals so that you can paint the transformation for them. If you are dropping in with your tonality and you are bringing that confidence in because you know that this thing is the thing that is going to get them where they want to go, your conversions will go up, your practice will be successful, and you will make more money. And that's the goal, baby. Let's go. We'll see you guys next week.