The rules she never learned and why that's the point

How I approach my work is just not having any shame. Caught in emailing has gotten us so far. And I think part of that is just having your elevator pitch and just being willing to message that person. I literally called message the COO of the Gates Foundation on LinkedIn. This is before I even had like a website or the idea and just said like this is the concept I'm playing with, would you mind if I use the name? She got back to me and said yes of course and then I'll link you with the relevant team and then we end up getting founting off the back of them to get off the gun. What's a good example of like a piece of content that you're like how the hell, why the hell did that go viral? Even like showing what a day in the life looks like, just waking up, going through a day and going to bed. People just love looking behind the scenes and I think it also by allowing them behind the scenes of your company and learning more about you as a founder which is something I've had to come to terms with. It helps your audience build trust with your brand and your company and at the end of the day that's the most important thing. What do you see founders do wrong when they engage media? I think. I want to know when does it pay to actually know very little about the business model you're going into before you found a company? Like what is the value of naivety? In this episode I speak with Phoebe Stolenstocks, the founder of new media company missing perspectives on the power of not knowing what she was getting into. In fact, Phoebe's altogether not what you would expect. She started her life in law, she did a bit of policy and she since forged a very strong contrarian position on what the media landscape needs to do differently. Her approach seems to be working. Missing perspectives is now reaching over three and a half million people a month. In this conversation she talks to me about what's right and wrong about the media environment, what drives virality, what messages land, and why constant fearless experimentation is her mantra. She also talks to me about how a side project interviewing the chiefs of staff to world leaders from Nelson Mandela to Julia Gillard and Tony Blair turned into a book and how it catapulted her into the rooms of power. To me, her findings around what it means to be trusted by those kinds of people resonates well outside of politics. So what is the theme uniting all of this work? Arguably, it's actually her willingness to cold email just about anyone. Let's get into it. So Phoebe, let's get kicking. Let's get kicking. So you were a human rights lawyer. Yeah. Turned new media founder to an author. Mm-hmm. Tell me how. I feel like human rights lawyer might be at overstatement because I graduated from law and then did a stent in corporate law, backdroped out. But I had a way of been passionate about human rights. I did like a lot of pro bono. So I'm like human rights lawyer sounds great. But I don't know. Yeah, you know what? Human rights lawyer. But then I, I mean, it's funny looking back because at the time I had a boyfriend and he was moving to New York and he was like, would you follow me? So I applied for a bunch of jobs in New York and then the job I got was with the UN. And it was working there at the UN in New York that I became really interested in the intersection. I would say of politics, gender and media. And I came back to Australia and did a stent at the Human Rights Commission where I loved working public policy and then went to cabrive. Everyone has to go to cabrive at one point. Some of the best of us have done it. Older, yeah, including you. And then worked at Prime Minister in Cabinet. And it was when I was working in cabrive during such a pivotal time, particularly for young women. We saw like a lot of women wanting to be heard. And at the time, a lot of the newsrooms were dominated by men. And I literally like looking back at so funny how little sort I put into it, I was like, I'm just going to start a blog that was just published reporting from young women around the world who just wanted a platform and then from there, I kind of snowballed. So where I am media company platforming young female storytellers. So at the start, that was very much focused on young female reporters. But now we've expanded into like content creators and we have a women's sports showman, man, and that's on TV. And the North Star, we've kind of had the whole time is that we want to challenge the underrepresentation of young women in the news industry. And particularly in beats like sport and politics where female reporters are the minority. And what we've seen is that when you have young women, you know, doing that reporting and making the content, the audience has always been there. Particularly for sport, like the fear for bulk, couples are turning point for us because that audience had always been there. They just hadn't be catered to. So we did not show yeah, we're a media company just platforming content relevant to young women and by young women. Yeah, so I want to get into all of the pivots that you've done since missing perspectives began. That's all I want to give it. But that's the beauty of it, right? Like that's what makes you the entrepreneur that you are. But what I'm really interested in is like media is not exactly an industry a wash with like opportunity, frankly, profits, frankly, like business models that anyone has any faith will still be around in like 10 years, let alone 50. Yeah, like what possessed you to say, you know what I'm going to do? I'm going to leave like a secure career and start a media company and more importantly, start a digital first media company specifically targeting what has been historically underrepresented group. Like what gave you faith that that was ever going to be a great commercial move, not just social impact move? It's funny here. You say that because I genuinely don't think that I thought it through that much. And also because I wasn't a stable job at the time, like it started as a side hustle. And it wasn't until it really started snowballing and brands came on board that I felt comfortable quitting my job. But I think now I'm in the news industry and fully understand the media landscape. Everything you just said, like declining trust, you know, failing revenue models. I didn't know about any of that going into it. Like I came into it very much as an outsider. I had never worked in the newsroom. You know, I was a consumer, I was consuming news media. But I never worked at a media company. And I actually think that was an advantage coming into it because I wasn't attached to the business models or really didn't understand the business models of legacy media and traditional newsrooms. So we kind of, you know, made it up as we went, but our revenue model and our business model is very different from other newsrooms and media companies. Yeah, walk us through it. Like maybe paint the picture of what does sort of quote legacy media make money doing? How does it make itself stand up? And how do you do it differently? So like a see and like traditional media, they, the traditional business model is very much focused on EZR. I mean, predominantly advertising. So brand partnerships and advertising. I bought a website in print, et cetera, and also subscriptions. So there I would say like the two key forms of revenue. But it's so funny because we've recently had a brand get in touch saying, you know, do we can we advertising our website? And we had never even done that kind of advertising before. Like we've just come to it so late because our main source of revenue is a lot of agency style work and doing consulting for brands as well. And content for brands that don't appear on our platforms at all. It appears exclusively on that brand's platform. So a lot of work with brands who want to speak to young women and tap into that Gen Z and millennial audience. And then advertising kind of came after that. And I think the issue is with advertising and subscriptions at the moment. And that's why we have kind of been safe the whole time and really been able to scale because we've kind of steered clear from that. And a call we made early on where we managed to receive funding from the Gates Foundation of and I fund in the US. And then Google here is build a SaaS product which we're going to be launching in the coming months where it's kind of like an app and marketplace that will connect newsrooms media companies and agencies with young female reporters around the world. So itchy with what's happening with the run right now. And newsroom could do a call out or be connected to a reporter on the ground. Whereas at the moment, it's really hard to find. You know, freelance is around the world or they rely on a foreign correspondent. So if an explain like diversity of buying our revenue to also include SaaS products like that, I think. Yeah, we've just kind of kept thinking outside the box and I think it's because I'm not from media that I didn't just know it's a lay of the land. The almost the beauty of the beginners might and the naivety actually is the ability to think from first principles in today's world about like how do you make a business stand up given the context that we live in now, not given what you know what worked for publishing houses over the last 100 years. I mean, I can see why that leads you in completely different places, right? Talk to us about how missing perspectives has thought about building voice authentically. Yeah. So I would say Revolse has spent four years really building out an amazing roster of freelancers. So we're bringing in and a whole ethos have been we want to bring in amazing young women and kind of break down the barriers to get published because there's so much gatekeeping in the news industry and it is so hard to get published. And then once they're in the door, we work with them to really get them up to a certain level and kind of give them the upskilling they need to then go on and work for other newsrooms. And that's why like out of this year, we're really going to start tracking our social impact as well and seeing where our reporters go on to work. But I think at the end of the day, also because a lot of our reporting has that lived experience lens like EG when you know everything was happening with Afghanistan and it fell to the Taliban. We were publishing a lot of reporting from young Afghan reporters in the region. And that's when a lot of newsrooms started reaching out to us saying, "Hey, can you connect us with?" - Yeah, it's a lot of things. - I mean, it's not very, very published your content. And that's actually where the idea for the SaaS product came about. 'Cause we're like, "Hey, we could actually remove ourselves from that equation and create this marketplace where they can just reach out to freelance reporters and kind of monetize that by taking ourselves out." But free syndication and building partnerships in newsrooms will also become a massive focus for us this year. Also because a lot of newsrooms now have quotas around female reporters and how many women are quoted in their stories. So it's like a massive focus for us right now in terms of strategy. So maybe for someone who's not across this the way you are, like why does it matter actually at the end of the day to have these stories written by these people? So I think having someone who has lived experiences really important, 'cause they can obviously, share insights that you wanna get from a reporter who EG isn't from that country. And that's why I think the reporter we published in Afghanistan was so powerful in such a turning point for us. I would say from our perspective, having young women do the reporting is really important because particularly with sport, we have our show momentum led by two of Australia's top female sports journalists. And when they may can produce the content and do the reporting, they know what appeals to our audience, which is a chancey of millennial women. And that's how the content performs so well. So I would say having young women do the reporting is so important because that's how we can truly cater to our particular audience. And I think we also saw that when Alicia, our editor and I, went down to Canberra for the budget, we were invited by the government. And we copped a lot of flight from traditional media for being there. I'm a cop like influences, which I loved. Totally an influencer. You were like, excuse me, business owner. Business owner. Entrepreneur. But we were there. We did the reporting, like video format, which actually ended up on media watch. They were like spoofing out two talks. But I like that's how you cut through to our audience. And that's why it's important that there's a newsroom like how's it say, but it digests information and make it accessible. So I would say that is a massive component as to why it's important. But also when we're platforming stories from young women, that can actually lead to policy change by giving them the platform. What's an example? So an example that I love is we published an op-ed from a young woman working. See, it sounds like a small example, but it actually led to policy change. So she was working in the construction industry. And this was like very early on in miscep perspectives. I would say like 2021. But she was working in the construction industry in broad and opinion piece for us. I think her own like international women's day, saying that there were no female toilets on no toilets for women on the construction site. So if they needed to use the bathroom, they had to get driven back to headquarters. And we honestly published it. I'm like, this is a great article. I want to set it live. Do you never really know what will come of it? And we posted it on LinkedIn. And the writer got back to us like a couple of months later saying someone higher, like a depth circle, someone at Department of Transport, had seen it on LinkedIn. And then it actually led to internal discussions and changes in contracts from then. So yeah, you can be our construction partner, but you must ensure that you have toilets for women. Half toilets for women. I mean, lower bar. I mean, thank God. But also like, yeah. I mean, that isn't that interesting. So like, actually, let's go there. You've got like three and a half million reach per month at the moment. Yeah. I think even more at the moment. Talk us through like where are people hearing these stories? Because you've, this is the other part of innovation. It's like you've built out a kind of media platform or so than a singular publishing house. Talk to us about how that's come about and what you've learnt along the way. Yeah. And I would say you see a lot of new media startups including like the daily hours. We've all really tried to diversify, particularly after the news was going to be banned on social media a couple of years ago. So it's been very deliberate from everyone to really diversifying. That's like even as you were very launching our newsletter as well. But early on, our main audience was website. So like a lot of long form. And the audience was very global. What people think of as journalism. Yeah, traditional understanding of journalism. And then the particularly after we always say it was the FIFA World Cup, the Women's World Cup in Barbie. That was the turning point for us. Because I think women's storytelling was at the forefront. And that is where our audience like absolutely shot up. Like I think we had a single piece of content reached one and a half million people. And that's also why we really started building out our sports pillar too. But it was after the World Cup social media became our biggest audience. And I mean, it still is. But then Instagram? Yeah, on Instagram, yeah, definitely. That would be our main platform. And then podcasting. So we've got two big podcasts at the moment that we're focusing on. Sorry, three. We've got Memento, which is our biggest in that book smart. And then high agency women, which we also partner with BlackBoton. We're very lucky. We're very lucky. It's funny looking at all three because we've got Memento, which is women's sport, high agency women, which is business and tech focused. And then book smart, which is books. And it's kind of three areas that you wouldn't expect to be big for a female audience. But death, three of our fastest growing products. Yeah. And I think the beauty of missing perspectives, if I might sort of say it, is like you haven't attempted to pitch yourself at a specific point in the quote, "High low universe," right? I think one of the insights missing perspective brings is let's take the audience, let's take an archetypal woman, who is in our audience, what other things that she's interested in, turns out it's actually quite diverse. She is interested in everything from how to start a startup, which is what gets covered on high agency women. And the stories of women who have done that before, she also wants to support the Matillas in their latest-- Support the Tellers. Yeah, exactly. Who doesn't? But at the same time, she's also possibly reading books or in a book club with friends. And I think it's the sort of missing perspectives is the sort of universe of her interests, as opposed to-- We come to you saying we educate you on X topic. So I mean, you've obviously arrived at that over time. You started with quite an international sort of orientation, like your own interest from the UN, led you down the path of saying like, there are stories out there of things happening in world events that are not being told. I'm really interested in like, you're probably in the land of making trade-offs now, and hard trade-offs about where you invest time for missing perspectives. Yeah. Like, is it just a case of follow the audience or how much are you bringing that same sort of beginners mind? I believe there's a gap in the market here and I want to fill it. I would say it's a mix of boroughs. Like we absolutely have-- like we've been playing around with our different products and seeing what works and what doesn't. And like if something isn't working, I think Zara's side-life from the Daily Ols is set a similar thing. If something doesn't work within three months, or like a certain time period, it's OK to park it. And we've had some things that haven't worked out, even if we thought it was a brilliant idea. Like it absolutely comes down to our audience. Can I give us an example? Oh my goodness. We trialed like a pop culture podcast, which looking back, like it just wasn't the right format. And in a way, we've kind of relaunched that without book podcast. And that's been where the real market is. And a lot of it, even down to-- we've had podcast-oper audio only-- that we have sadly had to park. I just invest and reallocate resource and to make it podcast-shotting an amazing studio. Because even app-loan spot-a-fire evolving YouTube is becoming one of the biggest platforms that people are getting content from. So also evolving even down to multimedia and seeing how our audience consumes content. And that's why Tash, who you know, is really good at serving our audience and touching base with them. And that's something I wouldn't really think to do. But being like, where are you getting your content? And that's really guided us. And like, for example, we had a women's sports show on Binge. And we're looking at the strategy for season three. And it's been on TV. But the reality is the majority of people are down to get on Spotify and listening to it as a podcast. So looking at the data, data is king. Yeah. That's been my biggest learning. And just allowing that to help us dictate and kind of evolve our strategy. Have you ever-- I mean, you sort of alluded to this. But like you said, data is king, but can sometimes data forces you to kill the things that you drive? Yeah. Yeah. That's hard as a founder, right? There's times where you're like, no, no, no. If we just give it another boost or we've got this other opportunity or whatever, do you find it hard to shut things down? Oh, particularly when things are like a passion project of mine. And I also think another really good example is that we spent two years building the SaaS product. And it was around the time. So we were considering doing a cap raise to scale the app. But at the time, our editorial was really taking off. And we really needed to-- like our whole team was getting pulled into editorial. And it got to the point where I was like, oh my god, we've been pitching this app to investors, but haven't thought about it in two weeks. And like the whole team was just focused on editorial. And so we had five committed investors who were very keen to focus on the app. But at the time, I just made the call. We need to be focusing on editorial now, because I think there's a really strong opportunity here, particularly with direction of women's storytelling, women's sport, and podcasting. So we parked that cap raise and brought on the investor who was also keen to support editorial. and just pause. to the app for a year and a half, while we've focused on scaling. The audience and I think that's worked. So that's why we're now picking the app up again. Also, we're now, yeah. - But you've also got a bigger audience already, so like the chances of making the-- - Torital products. - I mean, there's timing there as well. - So actually, let's talk a little bit about your decisions about how you've built the business, 'cause you intentionally bootstrap this business, which is, to our earlier points, not exactly an industry awash with cash. It wasn't like obvious. There are some people who bootstrap, because they've got money coming out their ears. They don't need it. That may not have been true at certain points in the early days of missing perspectives, but you still chose to bootstrap, talk us through like, why? - I think news media is interesting too, because sometimes taking on investment and having gross targets at can sometimes conflict with journalists, I mean, that's my opinion. - Same one. - Whereas sometimes to put out like quality journalism, having gross targets that you have to hit can sometimes hinder the work you're putting out. This might be a hot take. - It's great. - But that was just thinking I had early on, but I also think we really liked out because we got funding from Google and then Mac had came on board as a partner. So from the outset, we didn't really have to put, but we didn't really have to go out to investors early on, and that's why we just decided to keep boots. Trapping out, of course, we had months where we didn't pay ourselves. Whereas I think like it is definitely a privilege position to be in, but I think I was a combination of not wanting to grow too fast, especially while we were still trying to figure out who we were and what was working and what was not working. Like I honestly feel like only now, we truly know who we are. We have all our products like we know who we're showing up as. Like it's taken a long time to kind of evolve to that point. Because in a way, I've also kind of seen the companies and experiment as well. That's why I don't think I'm a traditional founder. Like it's not like I had this idea for like a product and then just scaled it. It's just kind of been playing around and experimenting and I feel like we've finally found what's there. And it's always been aligned without an old star and our overarching mission. But it's just taken like three years of playing to get there. - I mean, I'm gonna take back at you and say. And say that in my experience is the traditional founder. Actually, like the stories where someone woke up in the morning, akin to being rolling stones and waking up in the morning and being like Mick Jagger and I've got the song that becomes the hit. Like that's the incredibly rare case where you have the idea, it becomes clear how you're gonna execute it, you find the right partners and bang you're off to the races. Like most great stories don't start that way. They start exactly the same way you do, which is like I have an inkling about something. I'm gonna play around and have the courage to kill your darlings along the way, have the courage to experiment in the space and see what works, let to your point earlier. Like I'm being pulled to editorial. I should listen to that. - Yeah. I trust you got. I would also say when we were in the early days, like the first year, it was a great environment at the time for new startups 'cause there was an immense amount of funding from the government and from Meta and Google. Like Google had an amazing news fund, they had an innovation fund that we tapped into. So it really allowed a lot of news media startups to bootstrap. And that really allowed us to also build out our SaaS product as well. So it was I think a lot of stars are lining that allowed us to bootstrap. But I also think there is a pressure as a founder that you have to get like the capital brief headline about your big raise. And I think a lot of like that was definitely the back of my mind. I'm like is this something I should be doing 'cause like everyone's doing it, they're sharing their cap rates on LinkedIn. But it's not for every company. And it's something you can do later on as well. You don't have to do it right at the start. But I think that isn't our idea of that success equals like a cap raise. - That's right. I mean I think too often we like collapse what is actually quite a nuanced question, which is like find the right money for the type of business you are pursuing at the right time. Like that's what sets both founders and investors up for success is like right time, right type. - Yeah. - And I don't think we talk about that enough. - Totally. - So I want to come back a little bit to like the insights that you've generated out of these last couple of years of experimenting and doing this like digital media first in multiple formats. Like loads of our founders and senior operators are playing around with some of those very same challenges. Like how do I get people to notice what it is that we do? How do I develop authentic content? So like none of this kind of like I neither want to do clickbait because that's grotesque and I don't see my company or me being like that. Nordwai wanna do some kind of boring corporate. Here's who we are. So like what if you learn about what content resonates for the type of audience you have and like maybe define the audience really explicitly for people who are listening. But like what works? - Yeah. - So in terms of defining our audience, our audience is predominantly Chan C. and Melannie Allwemen in Sydney and Melbourne. So like very much Australia based young women. - The millions of them though. - The millions of them. But our website is still like very global. So I guess that's mainly our social audience too. But I would say the one thing I've learned is that there's a difference between like presenting facts about your company and talking to our people in storytelling. And I think people particularly now like maybe clickbait do use to work. But I think our audience right now is very much compelling drawn to storytelling. And by that I mean, you know presenting your company's mission and the work you're doing in a way that really cuts through to young women. And a lot of that honestly, what's worked for us has been pulling the curtain up a little and letting people like behind the scenes of your company and showing what's happening in your office. And it's often the content you wouldn't think would work that really does land. - Like what's a good example of like a piece of content that you're like how the hell, why the hell did that go viral? - Even like showing what a day in the life looks like. Like if we were in our life for working just show today, just waking up, going through a day and going to bed. Like that content people just love that. - Why? - And I think it's funny 'cause it's also linked to the book that I've written which we'll get to. But it's people just love looking behind the scenes. And I think it also by allowing them behind the scenes of your company and learning more about you as a founder which is something I've had to come to terms with. Like people are interested in the people running the company is that it helps your audience build trust with your brand and your company. And at the end of the day, that's the most important thing. Like they want to know the people involved in the company. And that's something that I've only recently learned in the last year 'cause I've always felt like I should be invisible. Our leadership team should be invisible because we're like in newsroom, platforming female like reporters. It shouldn't be about us. But I think at the end of the day to grow your brand now, particularly like for our audience, you have to be revealing more about yourself in the company behind the scenes. - More generally stepping into what you've learned about media in general. Like what do you see founders do wrong when they engage media? - I think tied to what we were just talking about and planning to heavily into the corporate media brand. And I think what a lot of founders often don't understand is the scrap here, the content the better it does. Like even down to content filmed on our iPhones will perform better than professionally shop footage. And that's something we've had to build into our strategy. So our strategy-- - Spend less. - Spend less. Like you don't need an agency to bring your content. Just higher agency, like the one on our team's brilliant. And she has totally redone our entire strategy. And has grown out audience by like 10X. - Yeah, so I think there was kind of an era where everyone thought everything needed to look quite shiny. - So I mean, totally, like it doesn't have to be polished. And a lot of it also comes down to frequency and how often you're posting as well. So even if it's like low-fi, scrappy content being posted every week, rather than like the polished agency video once a month, that's what lands. - Yeah, so I mean, actually let's go into that. 'Cause obviously the thing behind all of this is the algorithms that drive what people see, right? - So you've got always a media organization managed two things simultaneously. One is like your intuition and your sense from experimentation about how the algorithm is treating missing perspectives content. And also I'm interested at the same time in your perspective around platform risk. So like you've devised missing perspectives. You've got hands, you know, in lots of pies. So you've got some kind of diversification there. But like as the founder, do you think about managing the fact you're not in control of those distribution channels and there's an opacity to how they operate? - I don't know which founder said this, but particularly with the Instagram, you're renting the audience. Like you don't own them. And I think that's something that really shaped my thinking going into this year. And that's why we're also now going to be building out our podcast offering. 'Cause that's something that the dailyals have also done really well. So I think diverse, the more than we have and picking up streams of work that we had part for the last two years. Like the app that we've built and holding it on newsletter and podcast where we can actually own our audience. And when you own your audience, you also get unique data insights from them that you don't get from Instagram and TikTok. But what we've learned over the last two years is Instagram and TikTok are so volatile with the Raylux-Roon environment that we can't rely on them anymore. So it's absolutely detated our strategy. So when I talk to people, in preparation for this interview, who know you really well. One of the things that really shone through that is unique about you, and I love it about you. I've never. (laughs) Is you're basically unafraid to ask the question. So the way it was constructed to me is like, if you imagine that you have an idea in the morning about like a really cool partner for your given business and someone who could like, imagine if we got a partnership with this organization. Most of the time you're like, "Interesting idea, I'm gonna write it to myself, I'm gonna ponder it for a little while, maybe I'll draft an email, I'll cringe at the email, I will never send the email." Maybe I'll think about trying to get an intro via a friend of a friend of a friend, and then like three weeks later you've done nothing with it and it's sort of the opportunity passes you by. The way it was described to me is like, four minutes after the thoughts occurred to Phoebe, she has sent the literally mail. I just sent the email to the literal person. I would love it. (laughs) I didn't know the example that the girls were referring to. So I really want you to talk a little bit about your propensity to send the email and what it brings you as a founder and an entrepreneur. I always say that court emailing has gotten us so far and I think part of that is just having your elevator pitch and just being willing to message that person because our whole philosophy has been the worst thing as they say no, or they don't reply. So there's always something to gain from it. And we've always like emailed people, called emailed, had a coffee with them and then they obviously introduced us to like, I'll, like there's no downside. And I think people need to stop over thinking and just people need to call email people they don't know 'cause I think that has honestly played such a big role in both the book, like reaching out to the people I did and also the company. 'Cause there's an analog here for loads of tech founders as well, which is like, I think the piece that you don't give yourself enough credit for is the sort of snowball effect of having done that. So most decisions we like to pretend as individuals that were like super rational, but actually social proof is huge. Like when you're an email from someone, you might be like, who are they? You go on their LinkedIn, you're like, oh, they look vaguely credible. Or maybe it's like someone you know has something to do with them. You know, you think about all the ways that like, credibility and integrity gets built up around you. Yeah. And actually it's about like, who's the first person you've got there that then builds, you know, opens the door to the next one. So whether you're like doing a fundraise or you're building your first set of customers, like how you go about that strategically is really, really powerful. We can't, I really want to come to how that helped you with the book, but before we do that, like maybe actually quite tactically, first of all, how do you get the email? Second of all, like I'm sure you've experimented with like approach types, which ones work. Do you think about it at all? Or you just like, the approach, the approach is the thing, you know, that you do it is what matters. Yeah. Looking back, like, missing perspectives came off the ground because I'd read the Gates Foundation how to report, come out called the missing perspectives of women in use. And I literally called message the COO of the Gates Foundation on LinkedIn. This is before I even had like a website or the idea and just said like, this is the concept I'm playing with, would you mind if I use the name? And that's when, I mean, she emailed back and said, yes, of course, and then I'll link you with a relevant team. And then we end up getting funding off the back of them, top get off the ground. So it's so funny that I like just to cut to me, like the whole origin story came from a call. Did you regret not signing a licensing agreement with you? I would say like I tell everyone the best investment you can make as an early stage founder is buying LinkedIn premium. Because called messaging on LinkedIn, it also gives you more credibility because they can go on your profile, see your connection, see your work, see your photo. I'm gonna get a better idea of who you are as opposed to like an email where they don't really have that kind of data. So I always say LinkedIn, it's the best platform, but also people linked to that, you shouldn't be ashamed to also post on LinkedIn. Like I think a part of that, a lot of what, how I approach my work is just not having any shame. So I think it's tired to call it in like, but also putting yourself out there and posting your achievements on LinkedIn as well. Like I think a lot of it is just removing that, you know, barrier that a lot of founders have and just putting yourself out there in a way that you probably wouldn't. And it's uncomfortable at first, but then you just get used to it. It's pretty clear you have strong social impact goals. You've gone into this, you talk a lot about mission led, purpose led, you got your big vision. But you haven't set up missing perspectives as an offer profit. You didn't set it up as a charity. That's very, very deliberate. Demystify for people why this is also a great business. Yeah. So we are asked all the time, how do you guys make money? And a lot of people do think we are a charity because we're platform female reporting. Or just we work with young women, they think we're a charity. Like it is something to be. Do they not pay attention to where money gets spent in the economy? Yeah, I'm like, women are some of the biggest spenders. They are the biggest group. So we get asked all the time, are we a charity or are we a nonprofit? And honestly, at the very beginning, we were considering that like whether we go down the traditional public interest journalism foundation funded route, but then we're like, no women storytelling is valuable. And. What gave you confidence in that? Because I mean, an example that I love pointing to is Hello Sunshine, which is the company founded by Sarah Harden and Breastford Experience Sarah's and Ozzie. They were required for like, I wouldn't have to fact check this, but well over 100 million. And Sarah Harden's also been a massive supporter of ours. And I think she also really encouraged us to pursue this as a storytelling kind of vehicle and media company rather than going down that route. So Phoebe, I also want to turn to another pillar of your work over the last year and a year and a half, which is that you've released a book, called The Right Hand, where you interview, I think it's eight, Cheapest Staff to world leaders. So like these world leaders are real people. It's not only the likes of John Howard in Australia, but Jacinda Ardern in New Zealand, Tony Blair in the UK, Kamala Harris in the US, but also Nelson Mandela. Like, first of all, talk to me about where the idea from this book came from. And why is it that you wanted to go, I mean, it's obvious why people would want to hear about those people. It's less obvious why they want to hear about the person behind the person. - The person behind the person. So I would say I've always been interested in politics, particularly in pop culture, like West Wing House of Cards. And I'd always loved the Cheapest Staff character, like Liam Agarri, who doesn't love him. And then when I was working in Cabra, that's when I first, where I first met a Cheapest Staff. And when I was working at Prime Minister and Cabinet, I was John Cunkel working for Scott Morrison. And it was so funny because he was essentially the second most powerful person in government, but no one knew what he looked like or who he was. Or like we never met him. And so that's when I became really curious about the fact that they're very invisible. And whenever he'll kind of appear in our documents, we knew something important was happening. And then basically a few years later, on our missing perspectives Instagram, Justin Trudeau's Chief of Staff, Katie Telfer, started following us. And so her and I got to know each other. And we jumped on a call. And it was honestly the way she would talk about Justin that I found so fascinating, 'cause she knew him in a way that no one else really did. - She'd worked with him for eight years or something. - Oh, or for 10 years now, yeah. So I pitched the idea, her and she was like, that's a great idea. So then I hit up, I chose Cheapest Staff to world leaders that I was genuinely curious about. And I wanted a really good selection across a political spectrum. And so all of them said yes. And I think, I mean besides Peter, back to your beauty of the cold email. - Back to the beauty of the cold email. And it's interesting Nelson Mandela's Chief of Staff when I emailed her, she replied, saying, what I love about this project is that a lot of the interviews focus on Mandela, but I love that your series is the people behind the scenes. So I felt like she fully out there still be idea. So yeah, that's how it came about through Chuddo's Chief of Staff. And I just got back from Canada to I'm gonna have fun with her and Justin, which was amazing. - Yeah, I mean, not bad. - Yeah, not bad. - Didn't you also do an event with Kamala Harris's Chief of Staff in which it's amazing? - Yeah, incredible. So I mean, there's a lot that gets covered in the book and as a political junkie as well, I loved it. But it's, one of the things that's interesting is a lot of these Chiefs of Staff are working with their principles as they are known. They're kind of flexible. Whether they are a Prime Minister or a President, they're known as a sort of principle. They work with them for like a really long time decades in some instances. They know them better, sometimes than they know themselves. And I'm super curious about what you've learnt about human relationships in interviewing these people. And particularly in the context of like the kinds of people who live through world events that we all read about and they are living in there every day, like just sort of the crucible, like could there be any more pressured and environment than being in the room when you're deciding, are we or are we not joining the war in Iraq as was the case for Blair or are we or are we, how are we addressing the COVID-19 challenge as this case for Jacinda and so forth? - And that's what I loved about the interviews 'cause they were able to really add color and be not to like what was it like sitting in the room when you were showing the projected death toll for the first time in the COVID pandemic? So it was that kind of detail. And then I would say also learning, they kind of shake you light on their bosses that we all thought we knew. Or, um, And so like a story I love was Nelson Mandel's team. Here's chief of staff was kind of saying, hey, you had a table of all women, which I didn't know, which we love. But she was kind of joking about how Nelson Mandel was very vain. And he would take like a long time to get to meetings 'cause he'd be doing his hair in the mirror. But also the impact that prison had had on him and cause he was in prison for 30 years. He missed the credit card revolution. So we'll still carry coins. And they would have to say, like, we have these credit cards now. And so stories like that that I just think the news doesn't pick up 'cause it obviously focuses on the events. But I think the book and the interviews really brought to like, as you said, like the human side of these leaders and also the relationships at the heart of that. And issues like attention that I loved exploring across the interviews is whether they consider themselves friends with their boss. - Right. - 'Cause they all had a different view. - Yeah. - And I also think it translates, like it's an interesting conversation to be had about companies as well. Like whether you should be friends with your chief of staff. - Right, well let's get into that because actually, you know, outside of politics and the sort of military apparatus, which is really where, like, back in the day I looked into where the term chief of staff came from. - Yeah, yeah, yeah. - And like, there are, like, there's as many models as there are people with that title, right? Like, what is a chief of staff? It means very, very different things in different organizations. But the sector where they've really exploded in the last like five to 10 years is in tech. - Yeah. - Like, without being too grandiose about it, there are some similarities between world leaders and like, fast-growing scale founders. And, you know, partly it's that they have like, unreasonable ambitions. They have a sense of personal, like, capacity to change and shape the world around them. And they are deeply shaped by those macro forces that they are trying to constantly butt up against. They could try to, you know, create companies that didn't previously exist, go up against incumbents. Like, there's a lot of, there's a sense of that pressure that is somewhat analogous between those two settings. And so it's easy to understand why having a right hand, which is the language you use here, you know, could be powerful for tech, you know, tech founders. I'm really interested in like, I want to get underneath this notion of trust. And what is trust? What is loyalty? Like, what is true loyalty that lasts through the ages is, you know, quite clearly not about being a yes person. But, you know, if you're constantly butting up against your principle, they don't trust you enough to give you the hard stuff, or show you the hard stuff and you're gone. Like, what do you think you learned about what makes those people really succeed in their role? Yeah, I would say one of the biggest takeaways was trust is currency. Like, you need the trust of your boss. And if that's not there, the relationship is broken. And I think I write about it at the start of the book. But part of like, when the idea was forming, was there was a very public falling out between a chief of staff, Sally Rugg, and her boss independent MP, Maneek Ryan. So that kind of, you know, really, after that I started really exploring what makes a relationship work and what doesn't like true duo. And Katie Telford, they can communicate via eye contact alone, because they've worked together for that long and that trust and loyalty is there. So many thoughts. What has also been fascinating is a lot of the chiefs of staff have gone on to continue working for their boss beyond politics into, you know, being a private citizen. And I think that really goes to the fact that the loyalty is to the person and not, I mean, obviously the public, but they're very much intrinsically linked to the person they were working for. And then I would also say a key thing that came through was that challenging your boss is also a form of care. And someone put in those words, which I loved, like those exact words, 'cause I'm like, it is caring, challenging your boss and giving them that different perspective. But then I'm like, you can only do that if the trust is there. So it's important to build that trust so you can have those difficult conversations. But all of some kind of said, and this is where it's interesting with political chiefs of staff, 'cause they all kind of said, "At the end of the day, you have to remember that your boss is an elected official and you're not." But that's why I would love to explore. - A lot of them talk about, like, I didn't want to be the story, the worst idea is that I'm the story, you know? - If you're on the headlines, it's the worst danger. But I do find that interesting and that looking at the chief of staff role in tech and business, like do they have more power than a political chief of staff, because there's not that elected official element, which is something that I would love to explore down the line. So actually, like, what do you think you picked up about how, I can imagine someone's listening to this and thinking, actually, like, I do think I would be able to achieve much more, I could be more highly leveraged with a really smart right hand. Other than reading the book and going through it in detail, what would you encourage them to look for in a person? Because you can't test directly for loyalty. You can't test directly for trust over the long term. But what are the sort of things that you might pick up that you learn through engineering as people? - I would say the majority of the people I interviewed when you compare them with their boss is that they're very different people to the people they're working for. And just since our aderns, chief of staff is an amazing example of Raj, was he's literally the polar opposite of Jacinda Redone. Like, I kind of wanted to think he would be very like. Heron was really surprised. - Yes, super introverted, right? - I introverted, like, totally different. I think he also provided that different way of thinking for her as well. And that's something when I did the event with Trudeau in Canada, he really spoke to the fact that what he got most out there, working relationship with him and Katie was Katie, having a different way of thinking, being challenging. And that's why he had chosen Heros' chief of staff 15 years ago. - So he actively sought out someone who just thought a different way and really sought outside the box and could bring that lens to the role. - So I think looking for people who just think differently to you 'cause you don't want a yes man. And that's why it was funny going into the Tony Blair interview 'cause everyone had written about how we at this team of yes men. - Yeah. - And I asked his chief of staff, Jonathan, about that and he kind of said, we were all saying no behind the scenes, but publicly you have to say yes, which I found hilarious. But yeah, you shouldn't surround yourself with yes men. And that's why in my team, I encourage them to challenge me. Like the last thing I wanna do is them to think and they can't say that an idea I have is terrible. And that's why it's also been great building out a very diverse team, including with age, like having younger people on the team, 'cause even with media and use that's evolving in a way, where you need to have so many different perspectives and what we're doing in our strategy. So I think just seeing how people with a different perspective and different backgrounds is really important. - It has to be asked, I mean you spoke to the people very, very close to these like name branded individuals that most of us know. Who did you walk away from the interview being like, wow, I walked away with a completely different impression of that world leader than I went in with. - Probably Nelson Maddellers, because I think more vain. - More vain, but also the impact that President had on him and how that also informed his leadership and also how progressive he really was. I would probably say Nelson Maddell, but like they were all, I went away from every interview learning something new about everyone. Even Tony Blair's Chief of Staff, like that for me was one of my favorite interviews, because you also forget like what happened during their time in office, like how, like they had news. - Yeah, and like even him talking about the day Princess Diana died, like what that looked like behind the scenes. And they're also a really funny example like they don't see themselves as friends going back to like conversation. - Yeah. - But yeah, I mean. - But then yet they share shirts. I'm like I'm pretty sure you share shirts. - Yeah. - You share shirts, yeah. - And even like learning more about John Howard. So like a lot of the interviews with leaders who were before my time, or like I was very young, just learning more about, you know, poor Darce with John Howard and like what they were not for dating. I just found, yeah, I was interesting learning about, that insights from those events. - So one of the things that we've worked with you on is high agency women. And we both care a lot about demonstrating that the technology ecosystem has, already has phenomenal women leaders in it and also we want more. Like what's that taught you like in a meta sense as both a woman founder doing that and representing that? How do you sort of find your unique voice in that whole ecosystem? - I would say like a lot of the narratives around being a female founder, like it's very deficit and negative. And I think that a lot of, like that has turned off friends I know from like really pursuing their startup ideas. And I just think platforming more women who can talk about their experiences that have also been positive. I think genuinely plays an impact, has an impact. So I would say, yeah, platforming more experiences that are different, you know, we're always reading about the things that go wrong. And I just think putting more stories out there. I'm really intrigued by the kind of story you've built up through this conversation about what it means to frankly build trust and rapport with an audience as a startup founder in this day and age, right? It is sometimes it's not a case of like your work will speak for itself. You also need to be bringing people along on that journey. - Yeah. - And so for some people it's like, it's the case of, and many people do this very well. Some of our founders including do this really, really well. They like share a lot about who they are in all facets of their life, both as a founder and outside of being a founder in this kind of, you know, no holds barred kind of way. And there's very good reason to believe why that would build like a strong connection in a kind of parasocial sense with their audience and the people who believe in them. Equally, like founding a company is hard enough as it is. You know, there are some days when you don't want anyone to see. how hard it's been. You wanna put the face on and the putting of the face on is the way that you get through a tough patch. But those two things can live intention in this modern world. - Yeah, getting vulnerable. - Yeah, yeah. So like both, you've got this on so many levels. As a founder yourself, grappling with what you know actually resonates with audiences and you are curating through all of these media like sort of formats, this opportunity for people. Like what's the way of squaring that circle? Or is it unsquareable and it's a case of like do what works for you at the point in time? - They test your what works for you. - Brilliant. So for a close out question, Phoebe, what's something you've changed your mind about in this past year? - Something I've changed my mind about would be to be really practical. I think it goes back to what we were talking about before that audiences wanna know behind the scenes of the company and they wanna know about you as the founder. So that's something I'd like resisted for so many years 'cause I very much prefer to be invisible. But what I've learned is that if you're founding a company and leading a company in today's climate, you have to be public and you have to be building publicly. And a lot of people would still disagree with that, but I think that's how you get the grotesque and that's how you build your personal brand and that's how you build your trust with your audience and consumers. - And maybe a related one is what's something that you believe that others don't. - That's a really tough question. It would be that you need a plan and it's probably terrible advice, but I think for me, really not having a five year plan, particularly when the landscape we're seeing right now is changing so rapidly. For me, it's better to have not had a plan and just pivot and see where we end up than having this rich at five year plan with milestones. And I think I would say I'm different in that respect 'cause I just don't think you need a plan. You just need to be able to see what's working, be analyzing your daughter and then kind of having that inform where you're going and what you're doing. - I mean, you can't write a book about world leaders and not be also effectively writing a book about power and effectively also writing a book about ambition. What do you think speaking to the right hands of these world leaders has taught you both about power but also about what? Healthy and maybe even unhealthy ambition looks like up close. - I think I would say ambition isn't the problem. It's whether it's what our federal is purpose-driven ambition, purpose-led ambition and ego-led ambition. And I think we've seen relationships and companies whether it's that ego-led ambition, like that obviously fails, but as long as the ambition is linked to driving purpose and mission, then that's a really positive thing. - Yeah. (singing in foreign language) - Thank you so much for joining us for another episode of Wild Hearts. If you want to learn more from other ambitious people building, designing and creating the world that we all want to live in, then please hit the subscribe and follow button. This podcast is a labor of love from the Blackbird team and day one. The shows produced by Camilla Herring from Blackbird, our marketing genius is Laura Coford and our editors are from day one, Andy Jones, Sanjay Chabarria and Georgia Catalan. Thank you all so much for listening and I'll see you all next week. (upbeat music)